Don't Sign Anything you Don't Understand with Robyn James

What happens when communities are handed the information they have been quietly denied? How do you do equitable work inside a movement that often assumes its own goodness? And what does it look like to keep going when the global tide on women's rights and climate justice feels like it has just turned?

In this episode of There Will Be Dancing, Victoria, Odette and Sanaya sit down with Robyn James, the former Global Director of Gender Equity at the Nature Conservancy and one of the most respected voices in community-led conservation in the Asia Pacific. Robyn has spent nearly two decades making space for the people most impacted by environmental decisions, and most often left out of them. 

Together they explore the slow, patient, deeply relational work of community led change in a conversation that moves from the Pacific to the personal and back again. Robyn speaks about being the only woman on remote ranger stations, why mangroves and the women who fish them have suddenly become contested ground in the carbon market era, and the strategies she has learned for sharing power in rooms where she could just as easily hold it. 

This episode also features something very special: a beautiful audio contribution from the women of Katupika, Wagina and Kia, three communities in the Solomon Islands whose women founded the KAWAKI women's group to weave together conservation, community and culture across their islands. Their voices, lifted in traditional song, are a powerful reminder of what is at stake in this work, who carries it, and what it sounds like when women lead.

We hope this episode leaves you a little more humble, a little more determined, and a little more convinced that the quiet, patient work of giving power away might be one of the most radical leadership acts of our time. And, given how much Robyn loves a dance floor and a pair of flares, we hope you also leave it ready to dance.

Learn more about Robyn James and her conservation work via The Nature Conservancy

Discover how women’s groups in the Solomon Islands are leading community education on the impacts of mining here.

Learn more about the KAWAKI women's group and the Arnavon Community Marine Park at nature.org and on YouTube, and watch the full performance featured in today's episode here

Watch WELA's video with Christiana Figueres here

Our Hosts:

• Victoria McKenzie-McHarg (CEO, WELA) - A strategic leader with decades of experience in climate and environmental advocacy.
• Odette Barry (Founder, Odette & Co) - A storyteller and PR expert teaching changemakers how to tell their story.
• Sanaya Khisty (Head of Strategy and Government Relations, 5B) - A policy and advocacy leader working in clean tech on climate solutions.

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This episode is proudly supported by Women's Agenda, helping to amplify essential conversations at the intersection of environment, gender, and leadership.

Transcript

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Welcome to There Will Be Dancing, a podcast that amplifies the voices of women and gender-diverse change makers protecting our environment and climate. Early 20th century political activist Emma Goldman once said, If I can't dance, I don't want to be part of your revolution. And we use this to remind ourselves and you, our dear listener, that embracing joy amidst the turbulence of change making takes real courage and commitment. So let's have some fun. We acknowledge and pay our respects to the traditional custodians and storytellers of these lands. And pay special recognition for the Bungelung Nations and Warundry Country where this podcast is created. This podcast is by Women's Environmental Leadership Australia. And our thanks to Women's Agenda for supporting these essential conversations about the environment, gender, and leadership. Hello and welcome to another episode of There Will Be Dancing. I'm Victoria Mackenzie McCaughe, and I'm joined today by my co-hosts Sanaya Kistie and Odette Barry. Hello, how are you both? I'm well. I'm interested in your reflections from the both of you about Women Deliver. Great question, Sanaya. So, yeah, we've just in the last few weeks had the Women Deliver Conference that happened here in Naam in Melbourne. This is the world's largest conference for gender equality. There were 6,000 feminists from around the world gathered here in NAM, talking about all things gender equality across a whole range of issues: sexual and reproductive health, gender rights, security, conflict, and of course climate and environmental justice, right at the heart of that as well. It was epic and an amazing chance to catch up with so many people from our community that we know and meet so many incredible other people from around the world. Odette, I was hoping to see you there and we missed you. Yeah, look, um, sometimes you have the greatest plans to attend the world's greatest event and they don't come to fruition, unfortunately. It was also going to be our little get-together for the pod gang. Um, but I got a little bit sick and I flew down to Melbourne and spent it horizontal in bed. So um tell us all of the things about Women Deliver. I saw on social media, Vic, you shoulder to shoulder with some of uh the most incredible leaders across the movement and beyond. How did you cope with all of that energy? Because that feels like big out energy. Thanks for watching. Oh, it's big out energy. I mean, anyone who's been to big conferences, you know this. I mean, in some ways it was like a little mini COP, you know, the United Nations climate negotiations. Um, much smaller. Those are sort of 50,000 people. This was 6,000 people, um, but still that just back-to-back events, workshops, learning, running into people that you might have met online in corridors, um, and taking every opportunity that you can of people traveling from right around the world to be here for these conversations and making sure you are forming those connections and sharing information and strategy and um really trying to hear and learn from other people's experiences globally. It was a pretty phenomenal uh opportunity. We were so lucky to have that here, and it's such an important time. We know that uh the attacks on gender rights globally are increasing, and in Australia, um, we can at times think we're somewhat immune from it here in Australia, and yet we've seen exactly the same things playing out, often a little delayed here. Uh, and so really hearing from people right on the front line as these attacks are escalating in an incredibly well-funded, well-organised, globalized approach. Uh, and we're seeing it's associated with the rise of authoritarianism globally. Um, and so to be able to workshop and consider what is happening, how do we work together to counter this? And how do we also offer solidarity in these moments? It was yeah, pretty extraordinary. Well, I feel like um it's really wonderful to be able to talk to Robin James today off the back of those conversations. Um, Vic, what were some of the standout takeaways that you took across the week? It's hard to start on a negative, but you can't ignore it. It is dark days. The movement for uh climate justice, environmental justice, and gender equality is absolutely under attack. And we need to stand firm and in solidarity with one another, and we need to understand what is driving that so that we can counter it and recognize that that is work we need to do. Um that said, the other big takeout is that there is, in response to that, enormous innovation, uh, opportunity, creativity, and solidarity that is taking place across the world. Um we recognize that a lot of the systems that uh have uh helped support gender equality globally were not perfect systems. So while they're the wind back, particularly of funding into aid and development globally, which is then having ramifications everywhere, um, and that's that's coming directly from the Trump administration. The wind back to USAID, the attacks on philanthropy are having global reach and realizing that this is creating a lot of hardship, but those systems were not perfect to begin with. So, what is it going to take to build a system and mechanisms that are gonna serve us for the long term? So there was a some big challenge to think really differently, and I think that was quite exciting. Favourite speaker. Thanks. Thanks, Rob, thanks. Oh great question. I mean, we were very lucky to have alongside the conference Christiana Figueras was in Australia and we were banger moment. They say don't be your heroes, but that was a pretty special moment um to be able to host an event um alongside Sharon Burrow and with and with um Christiana speaking for a small group of change makers, and she was incredible. You've shared a little bit about what she spoke about there. Tell us more of this. Yeah, so she I've heard her on her podcast and um you know outrage and optimism, an incredible podcast um talking about climate uh issues, and she's spoken about a range of different feminist approaches to change throughout that platform, but they're often um a single piece of of that puzzle. And so we gave her the challenge of uh speaking to what a feminist approach to just transitions could look like. And she had, I mean, essentially created her own feminist manifesto. Um, she spoke so clearly and passionately, and uh that video is actually up on our website. So if you want to hear her speak about that, you can find the link is in the show notes. Absolutely. Uh, but when she was pressed and asked why do we need a feminist approach, she just so quickly deadpanned and was like, Well, we need a feminist approach because all other approaches have failed. Like, we have tried many different pathways. Here's the one we haven't, let's go for it. Uh, and she was just passionate, clear, intentional, really. What did she say? What did she say about love or thanks to thanks to the world? Well, it's very hard to find someone who can speak with credibility around the energy and investment pathways that are required and can at the same time um speak about uh the divine spiritual and how we need to bring that into our work and embrace love as a part of this, and to do that with full credibility uh is pretty special. Oh, so good. It warms my uh Byron Bay heart. So special. Well, um, I think we are all frothing the energy that you got to soak up on behalf of everyone, and um looking forward to unpacking more of this with Robin. Today's episode is about culture and conservation and why you should never sign anything that you don't understand. Something we'll get to explore a lot more when we speak with Robin James later in the episode. Thanks. Since we are a community podcast, every week we include an audio contribution from you, our listeners and broader community. And this week that contribution comes to us all the way from the Solomon Islands, which will make a lot of sense after you listen to the rest of the podcast and our interview with Robin James. So please do stick around for the rest of the pod. What you're about to hear are audio recordings from the women of Catapika, Wajina, and Kia, three communities in the Solomon Islands, whose women founded the Kowaki Women's Group to weave together conservation, community, and culture across their islands. These recordings were made as part of a programme called Nature's Leading Women, hosted by the Nature Conservancy. So for our listeners, there's actually a video component that sits alongside this audio that we were able to watch that you must watch. You absolutely must watch. You really must watch, yeah. And it really took me. I've actually been to the Solomon Islands and I visited this tiny island um because I had a friend who was working there at the time, and it was just one family living on this island, and they did um some of their traditional ceremonies for us while we were with them. It was just the three of us staying there. And just watching that really reminded me of um that the deep ties to culture and land, and you see them weaving baskets using materials from the land, and um yeah, it it it really just brings back that memory to me, and hearing the women's voices is a really helpful intro into the conversation that we're gonna have with Robin. So good. I just like the playfulness and the fun and the joy of that just like felt so good. It really was so energizing to hear their voices, and I think also it made me think about how my relationship to music has been formed around perfection and this idea of highly produced music that is so intimidating, which has become a barrier to me using my own voice and engaging with music for and I know no one starts music being an expert, but it I it just made me think about dancing and music and just the the simplicity of that music that just made me want to go and sing a song. So it's the power of of music as actual culture and living it, not as performance or other, but like as a lived experience. Um, I was lucky enough to meet these women. Uh so the Nature Conservancy has been running a program with this group of women in the Solomons um who call themselves the Kowaki Women, and they have they are doing incredible on-ground conservation work. And the Nature Conservancy brought this group of women and uh some women doing on-ground conservation from right around the world to Australia, to Byron Bay a couple of years ago, with some local advocates as well, so that we could meet each other, learn from each other's approaches. And um, I am very privileged to have received a gift, which I have here with me now. And if you watch the video, you will see them holding some beautiful um hand-woven uh bags that are an essential part of their culture and their practice. And um, they gifted me one here, which I carry with me and it sits here at my desk with me. Um, and I think that moment of watching hearing the women sing and talking about their stories and and the gifting of these bags really highlighted that uh culture and conservation are the one thing, you can't actually separate them. And I don't think I really understood that until that moment in those stories, that if you are protecting if you're doing conservation, you are protecting culture. It is all linked. You can't, if the most important thing in your community is the song, and the song can't happen without the dance, and the dance depends on the skirts that are only possible with the reeds that only grow if the river is healthy, then the river must be healthy or your culture dies. And that these two things cannot be pulled apart. And so, if the most important thing to celebrate conservation is to celebrate the dance, then that is a part of the work we must do. And so, culture and conservation as layered, these women live it and know it in a way that we can only be privileged enough to try and listen and hear from. Today we are talking with Dr. Robin James. Um, I'm thrilled to have Robin, who is a friend and colleague, here with us today. Um, but Robin has just concluded her role, huge role, uh, where she was the global director of gender equity at the Nature Conservancy. And for those of you who don't know, the Nature Conservancy is the largest conservation organization in the world. They have over 6,000 staff globally. It is big stuff that they're dealing with. Robin has recently stepped into a new role as adjunct associate professor at the University of Queensland. Robin is a global leader working at the intersection of gender, conservation, climate justice, and working with communities right around the world. Robin, welcome to the pod. Thank you, Vic. It's such a lovely welcome. I really appreciate that. And I'm really happy to be here. From the very soggy lands of Deborah and terrible country in Miami, Bristol. Thank you for having me. Thanks, Vic. You work in the global conservation movement, and many people think that means planting trees. Can you tell us a little bit more about what's actually involved, Robin? Well, my role in particular, Vic, has been around uh the equitable side of conservation. So not physically planting trees, although I did start my career doing things like that. Um but more recently it's been around how do we get more people involved in conservation. So when we think of conservation, as you just said, we can think about planting trees, um cleaning waterways, all of that sort of physical stuff, being a ranger at a park, things like that. But for me, it's about how do we get more people involved that may not have a voice around the environment, but may be very impacted by the decisions we make around the environment. So for example, if there's a mine going in, or if there's a huge agricultural project, who are the people that are gonna be really impacted by that? And how do we get them more involved in in this these big decisions around the environment? And in particular, you're talking about women and gender-diverse people, that's gonna really be part of your work. Yeah, so when I first um really got involved in conservation, like from the very beginning of my career, it was really evident to me that women were really not involved. My first job was as a wildlife ranger out in um central Queensland in Mount Based in Manisers, so super remote um national parks I was looking after, and I was the only woman, and it was really, really tough. So the equipment wasn't made for me, the accommodation I had to share with all men, so just felt unsafe as a young woman. Um, and I was the expectations were very different for me as a woman, like that I wouldn't be able to do the hard work, that I wouldn't be able to um do fire management, I wouldn't be able to drive a four-wheel drive confidently, all these things. So that is really tiring after a while. And so from that moment on, I was always just really, really cognizant of who was missing, who was finding it more difficult to be involved, and invariably it was women. So in every country that I've worked in, it it's really been hard for women to be involved in conservation, and that's the jobs of conservation, whether they're ranger jobs or in carbon markets, in climate, all of those things, managing projects, but also the communities that we work with. So women are very rarely at the meetings, they don't have a voice and they don't get paid. So that's been my focus. Can you give us a sense first of all, which countries you've been working in and some of the types of projects that you've seen either lacking women or where women are leading but perhaps are not getting as much of the resources? Yeah, talk us through some of the examples. So when I first started with the Nature Conservancy, so I was there for 15 years, um, I was working on a climate project in um the Pacific Islands. So Solomon Islands, Papua New Guinea, uh the Marshall Islands, and a few other places. And these are Australia's closest neighbours. Like you could swim to P and G if you're a very, very good swimmer. Um that's that that feels very audacious, Robin. If you were an amazing swimmer, let's go let's not put that in there because that is a is a lot of These countries are our closest neighbors, and yet the the opportunities for women are incredibly small. And so when I was working on um a climate project there, it was about community resilience to climate. So some of the places in Solomon Islands, for example, are experiencing some of the highest rates of sea level rise in the world. So sea level rise isn't uniform across the planet, which some people think. So it it rises, it's rising in different places at different rates. Um and Solomon Islands, it's they're really feeling impacted by by um sea level rise. And if you're not involving the women in the decisions around what to do about this, um, things like early warning systems when there's huge king tides, things like that, they're in the home looking after their children, they're looking after the elderly, they're at the gardens, they're not getting these messages that, for example, the men will get around an early warning sign for um a king tide that's gonna wash over the whole atoll, for example. And so they could potentially be at risk, they can't swim, they're often not taught to swim, so things like that, they'll be at more risk. And so I was really, really um adamant that we had to make sure that we were including women in all the decision making around what to do about climate change. And then when I was working on this, we realized that mining was coming in very quickly to the Pacific Islands, so there's a huge demand for um all of the minerals that are in that part of the world. So copper, bauxite, zinc, gold, everything, you name it, it's there. And that's something to think about when we think about the renewables as well. Like we're talking about renewables, it's all going to need mining. And so we really need to think about the gendered impacts of that. And the women would come to me and they'd be like, Robert, this is really interesting, this climate project, like you know, great. And we've got this huge mine coming on our land, and we don't have any information, and we don't know how to um how to negotiate with these companies. We don't even get to know when they're coming, they just talk to them in, they don't talk to us. Um, we want your help with that. And so that was really hard because I was paid for a climate change project, um, and yet the community, community-led climate change, and yet the community was saying, we actually don't we need help with that, but we need more urgently, we need help with this. And so we were able to work with our funder and others to pivot to respond to that community need and work with the women in particular to understand what the impacts of a mine would be for them and their communities and for their natural environment and how they could have a better say in how this was all going to play out for them as the world got more and more interested in their minerals. Robin, I think I've I've heard you talk about this um example, and you had some incredible um ways that you worked with community to help upskill, educate, and then allow the community to lead that education, including some pretty novel um projector uh screens. Can you talk us through how you engage with community? Yeah, so the women um you know, I I love these women. Like, we're still really close today. This is um over 10 years ago, but the the women were like we need to get to the most remote communities. Like, it's not okay just to um help people in Honiara in the capital of Solomon Islands that are going to university, they're working for government, they've got businesses. It's not okay just to focus on them, and that's what most of the aid programs do. So they focus on the easy bit. We want to do the hard bit here, like we want to get to the most remote people that are living on top of these mining tenement sites and probably don't even realize that their land has potentially been signed away. We want to get to them and we want them to have the information to make decisions around whether they have mining or not and how it plays out for them. And so we worked with a few different women's groups that were already very well established in each of the provinces that we were working in. And I worked with them. Um, we worked with lawyers in Australia and others to understand what the legal implications were of mining, what the rights were of people in in Solomon Islands. And we worked with them to put together this really um, really basic information package of what is a mine, like what even is a mine? So people were signing their lives away and not understanding what even a mine is. What it what is the stuff that they dig up, these rocks, what's it used for? And so showing pictures of motorboat engines, radios, phones, that sort of thing. Um, what are your rights? So what does it mean if you live here? What does it mean if you sign this? When can you be involved in a decision? And then how long does this whole process go for? So we'd have a photo of a baby and a photo of a grandparent and sort of show the life cycle of a mine so people could understand that oh, it wasn't going to just go for two weeks. Like people would think, oh, we'll just sign a thing and it'll go for two weeks and then it will be over. Or the mining company would come and take the core test sample out to see what the profile of the geological profile is, and they'd you know, villagers would think that was it, that was that was the end of the mining, or that was their land. So we were sort of explained the whole process. Well, I guess, Robin, it'd be great to hear, like over the decade of this particular project, what some of the outcomes have been across the communities you worked with. We probably reached over 30,000 people with this training program. And those women are still going, and they've successfully stopped a mine, an illegal booksite mine in Solomon Islands. Um, in 2020, they worked with the um Environmental Defender's Office and the Public Solicitor's Office in Solomon's and used this information to um uphold their role. Thanks, thanks to a huge booksite mine, which has gone over 60% of one of their islands. Thanks, thanks. Yeah, I mean I guess the lesson in that is about listening to women, listening to what they want and being brave enough to pivot. So to do if they have an environmental concern to actually be brave enough to pivot and and work on the thing that the community tells you they need help with, not what you think you need to do. So because it sounds like in providing them with the information and the education, you I mean, you're you're definitely helping to empower their decision making over their lands. Um and is there an economic component to that as well? Like are you essentially you're empowering them to take more ownership over the economic potential of their lands? Like, can you talk a little bit about how that might have happened? Yeah, I think I think people, you know, mining is an example where people think it's a yes or no answer. And so we were really working with communities to help them understand that it's not as simple as saying yes or no to mining. So if you say no, you can say no. And it might be not no forever, it might be no until we understand more, or it might be yes and yes and we want royalties, we want our rights, we want, and people were signing away their land for a bag of rice, and that's still happening now. And I spoke to a chief who cried to me when he saw, when he learnt the information that we taught what that we kind of provided, and he said, Look, if you you should have come earlier, I have signed our land for a bag of rice. And so there's stuff still happening, and I think Australia sometimes we don't think it's still happening, but it is still happening. Thanks. And it might not be as extreme, but I mean we still have issues with free, prior and informed consent here in Australia as well. And that kind of principle is just and the example you've given here is it just reinforces it's an extreme version, but this is happening, and it is happening in here in Australia where communities are not giving given full free prior and informed consent. And I think like it's pervasive, and as you said, Vic, it's everywhere. Um, and we have to kind of be really realistic about this. And what what my main message to um people uh anywhere is don't sign anything you don't understand. Like it is your land, it is your rights around the environment, around whatever it is. Don't sign anything if you don't understand it. And that was the most pervasive message, and I would say that to anyone in Australia as well. Like, do not agree to anything if you don't 100% agree, 100% understand about what the implications are going to be for your environment. And so, Robin, you went through this big campaign and processing. You've done it in more than the Solomons, you've done this around the world, or supported or been a part of teams right around the world, um, supporting communities and supporting in particular women to elevate their voices. Do we see different outcomes when there are, or are you seeing different outcomes when there are women involved in those conservation projects or or um giving voice to their environment? I mean, 100% you see different outcomes. I mean, I think that was a really good example. Like because we had the women involved, they demanded uh they demanded their rights. And so I feel like that that contributed to them overturning an illegal mind. Um, and that's a big example, but there's smaller examples everywhere. So women, and it's not always biological, but women often have the caregiving roles in most of the societies I've worked in. And that's not by choice always, it's just the way it is through the patriarch, patriarchal systems, that they are the carers, and so they have a different understanding of the environment. Um and that they because, for example, in Papua New Guinea, where I've worked, and this is in you know most coastal communities around the world, women have because they're looking after small children, because they have to be cook for everybody, because they have to get the food, because they have to keep the house, because they have to do all these things, they can't go very far away from the shore. And so yet they what are the plants that grow near the shore and mangroves. And so they do most of their fishing in the mangroves. They don't get access to cash income, so they can't buy the boats to go offshore and get the reef fish. So they're doing the mangroves, and so they have a totally different understanding of how valuable mangroves are, for example, in terms of nurseries for fish, shellfish, all these things protecting the coastline. So if they're not included in decision making or in like that, none of that information is thought about. And mangroves are often seen as wastelands because you know they're women's spaces too. So, but now that carbon markets are coming in, and for people who don't understand carbon markets, it's about putting a value on the carbon that's stored in our forests and our um wetland systems, about trading that that carbon to keep it in the ground. Mangroves store so much more carbon than other types of forests. And so they've suddenly become really valuable financially, which they never were before. They're just seen as wastelands and women's spaces. Now suddenly they're valuable, and all these different people are interested in these spaces, and women are being excluded. So when you don't include them, they're getting excluded from their resources that they typically use to provide for their families. And so we have to include them because otherwise everyone loses out. Thank you. So, Robin, I mean, that story we've seen, I mean, it's it's a classic story, right? Like you start celebrating women uh managing and leading in this particular environment. But of course, once it's now profitable, the men and corporations, other parts of the community is coming in trying to take over. Are we seeing progress or not? Like what how are we tracking tracking in the global momentum on this? I mean, I think my answer would have been different a year ago. I would have been, you know, a year and a half ago, I would have been much more upbeat. I think it's been challenging the last year with um the changes to the US administration, um, the rollback of uh diversity, equity, and inclusion, um rights, gender women's rights in the US. And that's you know, that's kind of had big tentacles out globally because of the USAI agency was cut, and that was sort of $60 billion in one overnight, was sort of cut. It's just so big. It's yeah, it's just hard to imagine the tentacles of that reach is just everywhere. And uh thanks. And these executive orders, so you know, once the US administration um in January 2025 kind of started um uh putting forward all these executive orders around like uh return to meritocracy, um making DEI illegal, these sort of things. And so it it's had wide-reaching impacts for women's rights, and we're seeing we're seeing like other aid rollbacks. So there's been a 23% drop in aid globally um in the last year, and that's the likes of Germany, Australia, the UK are kind of feeling like they have a bit of a free pass to uh rollback aid as well. And so it's been a challenging time for women's rights, I'd have to say. And I think it none of us are giving up. Like, we'll might take a pause and like we'll go, whoa, that this is hard. But none of us are giving up. Like, I I think you know, recently and Vic, you and I were there at Women Deliver Conference, you know, a big global gender conference in Australia. And I felt really hopeful after that because I feel like we're getting organized. So when things get pretty dire, people start getting organized. Not that they weren't before, but we it demands something different of us. We have to respond in kind. Perfectly said. So and it's so uncomfortable right now that it's like, what have we got to lose? Like, someone like me, what have I got to lose? Like, I'm pretty safe in Australia right now. It's up to people like me to really stick my head out and be really uncomfortable. And I'm seeing a lot of women in my position ready to do that, and so I feel hopeful about that. I was gonna ask if you can talk a little bit about the I mean, you kind of setting the scene for the context that has led to this change in you deciding to leave the role. Um can you tell us a little bit more about that? Yeah, I mean, I guess for me, I'm super passionate about this connection between gender equality, climate, and conservation. Like I I think you cannot you can't look at one without the like they're all so interconnected. And as soon as we start separating them out, that's when I think we're not doing as well. So sometimes the conservation environment movement gets a bit of a free pass, I reckon, in terms of social this their social license and their social progression, because we're like, oh, we're green, and so automatically we're like really equitable and we do the right thing, but that's not that's not necessarily how it works. And it all of this stuff is intentional. So as soon as you take away the really publicly stated intent, I think it can erode away. And so for me, if I can't be very clear about the need for all these things to be thought about together: equity for people, communities, social justice, gender justice, climate justice, environmental justice as a whole, then I don't I think it's not as effective. And so I want to be somewhere where I can really overtly talk about these things. And the US administration women, you know, have made it so difficult to talk about DEI without fear of everything being dead funded, um, without NGO suffering. That I mean, I'm I'm I'm in Australia, so I can speak about these things. And so I want to use that privilege I have just by you know, the luck of where I was born and where I happen to live uh to help the movement. And I don't know if I'm as effective if I can't um do that um from being employed by in a US organization. Robin, um that context is a really big role to have walked away from. You completed a PhD in this subject matter, you've dedicated your career to this work. Like to to speak to this lightly feels really not acknowledging the gravity personally for you in your life's work. And it how do you, and maybe you don't have an answer to this and it's too much to talk to as well, but how do you navigate the grief of that, the um transitioning through this work? Yeah, I mean, that's raising unexpected feelings for me, and it is it has been pretty tough, I have to say. Like I wouldn't, you know, in unexpected at times, it just comes along. Um I think I think because it's not the end, like your whole career is a journey, and so this is just this is a journey, and there's ups and downs and roundabouts, but my my I'm not a ty I'm not a job title, like I'm the same person with the same skills and the same passion as I was before. Um, so I'm just look enjoying the moment and I'm excited about what's next. And I will always I know I always head towards the pointy end of of the movement. Like I want to be where we can I can be the most effective to make changes that are good for people, good for the environment, and good for the climate. And so that opportunity will present itself. They said um a little earlier that you would always go to the pointy end of the movement, and I'm wondering, you know, if you're following the flow and seeing where things are at, and we have just finished up at Women Deliver this massive conference hearing from all of these feminists from around the world. Um where do you think the pointy ends are at the moment? Where are those opportunities? Where what's exciting that you're seeing out there? I'm seeing some pretty interesting uh grassroots uh organizations that are really getting themselves organized. And I mean, well as you might not classify as fully grassroots, but you're getting very organized, and that excites me. So just seeing women kind of understanding how powerful they can be when they get together and create groups, groups of organized individuals, so and having a clear strategy, so on the climate, how are we going to influence climate? How where where are the cracks here that we can um infiltrate? Not just saying there's no money, that you know, oh no one will give us money, but it's like, no, there's a strategic opportunity here, here, and here. Like, for example, the Australian government, we've got 50% women in parliament. Like it's the first time in history. We need to be taking advantage of that right now. With our objectives around climate, around gender, around the environment, like there's other things that are really holding us back that, you know, aren't going so well with the current government. But there's some things like that. Like that is huge. We need to be taking more advantage of some of these really obvious structural things that I'm seeing, like 50% women in parliament in Australia. Like that is amazing. We need to be taking more strategic advantage of things like that. You know, we were hearing just before it's it's tough times in the global movement out there, and we're all finding ways to keep going through this. And we know for those of us in the pod crew here, dancing is one of those ways. Do you dance, Robin? And if so, what is one of your favorite dancing experiences? Gosh, I love dancing so much. Like I was one of those people. Thanks, I don't think we've danced together yet. Gosh, we need to fix that up. Thanks, yeah. Dancing gap, that's gone on the list. Um, so I when I was a teenager, like you know, uni, first two years, second year uni, I used to go out every night. I was terrible. I was the worst un and I'd go out dancing every night. We'd go to a different nightclub because I just love dancing so much. And I thought, and I remember saying to my friend, I'm never gonna get sick of this. I'm never gonna get sick of this. I'm gonna go out every night for the rest of my life. Obviously, I don't. I sleep on the couch in my pajamas now. If only we could have that energy forever. I remember saying the same thing. Come out of the night closet dawn and think, how come not everyone's doing this? Where is everyone? So I love dancing so much. I love wearing my flares, as you know, Vic. I have a lot of flares pants. I love wearing flares. I like so danceful. You really do. And not not just for the audience to understand, not like new wave, like denim flares. Let's talk about old school um hippie prints, floral flares. It's a it's a vibe. Robin, it's been a joy to hear from you. It's been incredible the last couple of years witnessing your work and at this crucial time in global history, really, and in movement building, uh, to see what you have done. Supporting women in diverse communities to elevate their voices has been something else, and I am really excited to see what pointy end of the movement you find next. So thank you so much. Thank you so much, everyone. It's been such a joy. Uh dancing in my head with you all. So I'm dancing on the inside right now. Thank you, Robert. Thank you. You know those people that when they're talking about their work, they're doing it with such depth of expertise, but accessibility in the way that they talk about it, that literally anyone could listen to her and know what she was talking about and understand the concept she's dealing with. And yet you just you just could listen to her talk about all of these deep expertise examples forever. It's one of those things that I think is one of the best indicators of someone's knowledge is their capacity to make complex things accessible. Absolutely. Yeah. I I like I I feel like her capacity to um detach from ego for the cause is really, really admirable. And having spoken to her about this recently, I find myself very humbled by her humbling, in that it's just such a natural state of play for her. Whereas for me, I do get caught in that ego, and it is really hard to like find the line on um just letting go that something doesn't matter, but just allow it to happen and and flow like water. And um, yeah, I I feel like there's so many lessons in that style of change making that I have taken away from the conversation. Yeah. Yeah, leaving a role like that after 15 years. Um because you can see that you will be able to have an impact, being able to talk where other people just can't is such a thanks, thanks, thanks, thanks quite an impressive move to make. Thanks, thanks. It's exciting. It's exciting to me. I mean, I um I things are bad. We know this, right? And we sit in it all day, every day. We have got to find those pointy ends, those different pathways. And um, it is gonna require us to do things differently. And this is, you know, someone going, hey, I can't be loud enough here. I have to, I have to switch this up. And I I think it's an exciting, it's a terrifying time, obviously. So I don't want to take away from that. Uh, but it's also I love watching how people are responding and thinking about it and being challenged to think differently. And I think that was one of the things I really enjoyed at the Women Deliver conference. And um watching that, how people globally are trying to engage with those questions and ask those questions. And yeah, I love the way Robin's engaging with this. One thing that really stood out to me in the conversation was when she was talking about the reasons, like the broader context reasons why she left the role. Um, and she said, I can't remember exactly the words, but she said that she thinks that you can't you can't solve these problems by separating gender from climate from justice. And thinking about the start of the conversation where she was talking about some of the projects that she's worked on and the outcomes, like so such tangible examples where if women were not involved in those projects, there would have been a worse outcome for those communities, for the environment. And I can I can see how having had the experience and watching all of those different things play out throughout her career, she would want to take a step back and say, I'm not going to be most effective if I can't do that work. It's interesting because I think I've heard a few people who came away from that women deliver conference with really different perspectives on how they were feeling about the state of the world and the global movement. Because uh quite clearly we are in dark times, and the rise of the extreme right and the rise of the anti-human rights and anti-gender rights agenda globally has been enormous, rapid, organized, funded, and it is ambitious. And that is a threat to women, to uh gender-diverse people, to girls, to anybody who um suffers any kind of marginalization, um, people with disabilities, First Nations people, indigenous people, uh, people of colour. It is a serious threat that is growing and building momentum, and it can it should not be taken lightly, and we have to fully engage with what that means and what that demands of us. And at the same time, there are movements of possibility arising, and it is in these moments that we find different ways to do things. And so I was sitting with that after Women Deliver quite a bit, and then last week I found myself at the UN Global Compact Annual Conference in Australia, which is basically businesses who are focused on sustainability and human rights questions, and um, they get together and talk about such things. And it's been five years since I was last in those rooms when I was um working at a sustainable and ethical bank, and it was super interesting to reflect on how far the conversation had moved, particularly when it came to First Nations rights and when it came to nature and businesses really seriously engaging with nature. It was a phenomenal shift from where we were just five years ago. But I needed that perspective to have been able to stand back from it to see that that had shifted and changed. And it I walked away excited, a big challenge is still. Like, let's not pretend it's it's a big mountain we we are climbing. But uh it is just such a different conversation and a different set of language and possibility now. You know, in every movement and change-making scenario, it's having the capacity to zoom it out to see the hope, you you know, to to see the context of where the movement is at and how much it has moved, for want of a better description. And even when time is moving against you, like the momentum globally on some of these things, I think time will show us in a pretty bad place, not too far from now, on some of this. But we have to also look for it's never universal. The story is never universal. There are pockets of opportunity and hope and engagement, and it's from those places that we organise, we get solidarity, we nurture, and then we activate. And so recognize not just seeing the big momentum that's coming at us, but seeing those seeds of possibility in our own orbit is something we have to train ourselves to be able to look for as well. Thanks. Well, that's a wrap, friends. A big thanks to my fellow co-hosts, Sanaya Kissy and Odette Barry. Thanks to our guest, Robin James, and to the Kawaki Women's Group from the Solomon Islands for sharing their song and their culture with us today. If you've enjoyed this podcast, then please join us again in the next fortnight and thereafter. Subscribe, share, tell your friends and family. The links are all in the show notes. Thanks to our producer, Matt Siegel from Green Thumb Media. Theme Music is by Alice Ivy. Until next time.