There Will Be Dancing
Courage, care, and climate leadership worth dancing for.
There Will Be Dancing is a podcast from Women’s Environmental Leadership Australia (WELA), amplifying the voices and leadership of women and gender-diverse changemakers working for our climate and environment.
Taking its name from the idea that movements for change must leave room for joy, the podcast weaves together personal stories, creative contributions, and thoughtful conversations to show that leadership can be hopeful, collaborative, and deeply human.
Across each episode, you’ll hear from experienced leaders and emerging voices challenging outdated norms and creating new pathways for climate and environmental action.
There Will Be Dancing
Climate, Tech and Democracy with Tegan Lerm
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What does it mean to fight for democracy at the very moment trust in it is falling? How do you build a tool that reaches the grandmothers, the rusted-on voters, the people who have never thought twice about how they number their ballot? And what happens when you decide to stop chasing the algorithm and build something that actually earns people's attention instead?
In this episode of There Will Be Dancing, Victoria, Odette and Sanaya sit down with Tegan Lerm, co-founder of Project Planet and Build a Ballot, the civic tech tool that helped nearly 600,000 Australians navigate their vote in the 2025 federal election. Tegan didn't grow up in the climate movement. She came from a conservative family in regional New South Wales and found her way into the movement after the 2019 bushfires. From those humble beginnings, she built something that quietly reached every demographic and every electorate in the country.
Together they explore what it really takes to build civic technology that people trust, what it means to keep building tools for democracy when AI bots are flooding comments sections and how to pull young people out of the radicalisation rabbit holes they fall into through their recommendation feeds.
This episode also features a fascinating contribution from Kim Garrett, environmental investigator at the Australian Conservation Foundation, on what citizen science looks like when you pair it with satellite technology and a very unexpected community of volunteers. Kim's team uses Sentinel 2 satellites to monitor illegal land clearing across Australia, and they have discovered that some of their most effective investigators are not rangers or conservationists, but dedicated players of GeoGuessr, a game built around reading Google Street View imagery to pinpoint where in the world you are. In eight weeks, they covered almost two Tasmanias of country and stopped bulldozers on the ground.
We hope this episode leaves you a little more convinced that democracy is worth fighting for, a little more interested in the unexpected people who show up to protect our environment, and a little more ready to send Build a Ballot to your most rusted-on relatives at the next election. And because Tegan dances in the kitchen with her partner every time they make dinner, and has the Splendour in the Mud story to prove she will do it anywhere, we hope you leave it ready to dance.
Discover Tegan Lerm's work and learn more about Project Planet at https://www.projectplanet.org.au/
Try Build a Ballot at https://www.buildaballot.org.au/
Learn more about ACF Investigates and how to become a citizen environmental investigator at https://www.acf.org.au/
Learn more about the Forever Reef Project, which Victoria visited on the Great Barrier Reef, at https://www.foreverreef.org/
Our Hosts:
- Victoria McKenzie-McHarg (CEO, WELA) - A strategic leader with decades of experience in climate and environmental advocacy.
- Odette Barry (Founder, Odette & Co) - A storyteller and PR expert teaching changemakers how to tell their story.
- Sanaya Khisty (Head of Strategy and Government Relations, 5B) - A policy and advocacy leader working in clean tech on climate solutions.
Want to learn more about WELA? Visit wela.org.au and find us on Instagram | LinkedIn | Facebook
This episode is proudly supported by Women's Agenda, helping to amplify essential conversations at the intersection of environment, gender, and leadership.
Welcome to They Will Be Dancing, a podcast that amplifies the voices of women and gender-diverse change makers protecting our environment and climate. Early 20th century political activist Emma Goldman once said, If I can't dance, I don't want to be part of your revolution. And we use this to remind ourselves, and you, our dear listener, that embracing joy amidst the turbulence of change making takes real courage and commitment. So let's have some fun. We acknowledge and pay our respects to the traditional custodians and storytellers of these lands. And pay special recognition to the Bungelung Nations, a Rundry Country, where this podcast is created. This podcast is by Women's Environmental Leadership Australia. And our thanks to Women's Agenda for supporting these essential conversations about the environment, gender, and leadership.
SPEAKER_02Welcome to There Will Be Dancing. I'm your host, Odette Barry, and I'm excited as always to be joined by my co-hosts, Victoria Mackenzie McCaughe and Sanaya Kisthee. Hello, my friends. Hello.
SPEAKER_05Odette, you've just come back from holidays.
SPEAKER_01You've both just come back from holidays.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I know. I really just wanted to talk about my own holiday.
SPEAKER_02Well, uh, isn't it interesting how important rest is? I feel like it's so easy to just keep on churning and doing the things. And then as soon as you take a moment's pause, you remember how unbelievably important it is to reset the nervous system to just really down tools and spend a bit of time in paradise if you can.
SPEAKER_05And did that happen? Did you get that reset?
SPEAKER_02I really did. Yeah, it was interesting, actually. I got caught off guard as much as I knew it was going to happen. But I had a week away with my friends and then a week away with my husband, which is the ultimate way for a needy extrovert to holiday because you get all the people filling side and then the depressed. But about halfway through the first week, I actually had a real emotional meltdown and felt my whole nervous system completely fall apart. Just momentarily, I had this real sense of sadness and fatigue and exhaustion that hit. And there was no nothing that you could link it to. It wasn't like I was sad about anything in particular, but it was honestly the best indicator to me that I was doing the right thing to really take that time of rest and reset. So grateful to have the team working around the clock to give me that time away.
SPEAKER_05We get these times because other people are around us supporting us as well. Yeah. Yeah. And I think I had dosed. And yeah, we can do that for them, of course.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think I dosed up to my eyeballs on vitamin C and Armor Force in preparation for my immune system being compromised, but hadn't really um done the work on what happens when your mental uh capacity just bottoms out. But yeah, it was beautiful. Vic, what about you? You've had a lovely little rest as well.
SPEAKER_05I did. I also went hardcore on the armor force to make sure I didn't fall apart. Um, and yeah, you know, any sponsorship welcome. Uh keep away. Yeah, that's right. Um it was really fantastic. Uh, we went up north, up to North Queensland and had some time um at the top part of the Great Barrier Reef, which is an incredible place to visit. I know so many Australians have got there. And for international listeners, it is just as extraordinary as you think it's going to be. Um, but I'd never been to the northern part of the reef before. I'd only ever been to the southern part, which is also pretty special. But um, up in the north, I got to see giant clams. I had no idea how giant giant clams really are. They are next level. It was so beautiful. Uh, it was just extraordinary. I'm so glad we got to see it. And um, you know, it's hard to be on the reef and to see this beautiful space knowing the threats that are coming. We could see cyclone damage uh that was there on the reef as well. And uh we could see some bleaching. We know coming into the next 12 months uh it's likely to be a real horror year for the reef. Um, and they've had back-to-back bleachings over the last several years. So it's it's tough. Um, but there are still some beautiful, beautiful places to see and experience and to know what it is we're protecting. But not only was the reef itself very, very cool to go and visit. A friend of mine, Dean, runs a project uh up there called the Forever Reef Project. This is the coolest thing I've seen in a long time. It's basically the World Seed Bank, but for coral reefs. They are collecting all 415 of the hard coral species on the Great Barrier Reef so that they can be protected in perpetuity, so that we have species that are alive not going extinct, and so that these the reefs can be rehabilitated over time. And I got to go and see their tanks and um you can tour, you can you can have a look at what they've got there. And it is an incredible project. This gorgeous um marine biologist Shania was giving it to her. She was so fabulous and enthusiastic and so knowledgeable. We will have to have her on the pod one day. But it is a gorgeous and hopeful project. So you go out to the reef, see this incredible uh piece of of well, extraordinary, really, piece of natural phenomena. And then to sit with the risks we know are coming, but then to see what people are doing about it. I just loved it. So yeah, have a Google of the Forever Reef project if you're to see your thing. That sounds sounds pretty special. Yeah, I was I was um buzzing afterwards, and I was in a taxi um on my way to get a massage, and my taxi driver got this massive spiel about how excited I was about this about this project. Turns out he is on the local chamber of commerce and industry, and he committed to get the whole of the the the chamber of commerce and industry to go and have a tour and take a look at it. And he got to the end and he's like, Wow, you're you're very compelling. You should be an advocate. I was like, buddy, now there's an idea.
SPEAKER_02I love that like the Weller CEOs on holidays, and this is how you do it. Yeah. Marketing for others. Classic bic. And Saniaya, you've had a bit of a celebration that you attended.
SPEAKER_01I did, um, that is on brand with things we have discussed on the podcast before. I went to the 20-year celebration of the B Corp movement. Um, and it was also a farewell for the outgoing CEO Andrew Davies, who was my boss for a while. Um, and it was amazing. I kind of I went in thinking like, oh yeah, when I worked at B Lab six or so years ago, there were, you know, maybe like six of us. The team is like 20 plus. There were so many B Corps in the room. There was, and it was just one of those things where you go back and you're like, oh, I remember why this movement is just so great. Because everybody you meet has this incredible story of something that they are doing via business that is making a real difference in the world and coming at it from so many different perspectives and and reasons. Like I met someone who ran a commercial cleaning business and they were itching to become a B Corp and they waited the 12 months, got in every bit of their materials, and I was like, So what were your reasons for it? And he was like, We used to be in a business that talked a lot about sustainability, but didn't walk the talk and we wanted to do it. It was just it's just great meeting so many people that are doing that kind of work.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it must have been really satisfying seeing how much that has grown. And like I think when we talk about like hope and optimism, you know, it's easy to feel like you're gaslighting yourself sometimes when you know you scroll through social media or the news. But then when you show up for events like that and you see how much that community has grown and how much enthusiasm and excitement there is in it, it's very validating that there's so many people that care.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. They care across so many different areas. And I think that for me is the thing that's like, oh yeah, there are people doing great work all over the place, and you don't get to see those stories, and it's just so nice walking into that room, being reminded of that.
SPEAKER_02I guess our conversation today with Tegan is a really nice continuation of that enthusiasm and um chatting with someone who is really putting all of their energy and life force behind engaging people in the movement. I'm really looking forward to this conversation. Me too. Now, before we jump into our interview today, we have a contribution from our community. We're going to hear a reflection from Kim Garrett, an environmental investigator at the Australian Conservation Foundation, on what environmental protection looks like when Australia is too vast for boots on the ground alone.
SPEAKER_03My name is Kim Garrett, and I'm an environmental investigator at the Australian Conservation Foundation. I'm recording this on the lands of the Gunningaro people in the southern highlands of New South Wales. I think when I tell people that I'm an environmental investigator, most of them probably picture me out in a field, driving a jeep, knees deep in a polluted creek, or maybe inspecting poisoned eagles. It's true that I once got to fly in a helicopter over active land clearing, and one of my favorite ever days on the job was the day I got the Ute bogged in the Piliger Forest. But the reality is that Australia is way too vast a landscape for us to protect using boots on the ground alone. Most of our work happens on remote sensing tools, like the Sentinel 2 satellites that sweep over Australia every four days. Technology like this is incredibly powerful in making otherwise invisible environmental destruction visible and accountable. A lot of people are surprised to find out that Australia ranks among the world's worst deforestation hotspots. Up to half a million hectares of precious habitat is raised annually, and for every 100 hectares cleared, an estimated 500 mammals, 2,000 birds, and 15,000 reptiles are killed. The vast majority of that clearing doesn't get assessed under our national nature laws. And that's a problem if we want to protect our biodiversity. That's why my team does what we do. We use satellite imagery to look for deforestation from our desks. But even digitally, it's a lot of ground to cover. Even when we narrow our focus to just look at high-risk threatened species habitat, where an algorithm has identified some kind of vegetation change, we still end up with an area bigger than Tasmania. If I were to spend one minute checking each image, it would take me every minute of every hour of every day for a full year to review just one week of satellite imagery. That's where our crowdsource investigation comes in. The project is called ACF Investigate. And it asks people from the general public, citizen scientists, if you will, to take a look at satellite images and compare views from last year versus this year to identify potential illegal land clearing across Australia. This combines geographic analysis skills with meaningful environmental impact. It essentially turns looking at satellite images on a phone or desktop into investigative citizen science. Thanks to the crowd, this year we covered almost two Tasmanias worth of country in just eight weeks. Last time we ran this, we were able to report 135 cases to the authorities that we wouldn't otherwise have known about. So far this year, and it's early days still, we've already reported 25 cases, three of which had bulldozers on the ground that have since been stopped. And I reported another case early this week that I hope we'll see stopped too. This year we worked with citizen scientists who've never volunteered before, right through to seasoned CFA firefighters who ended up teaching me and my team about how to interpret fire scars because they'd battled fires just like the ones we were looking at on the ground. Citizen science is at its best when you can make a space for both extremes. People who have decades of experience and a lot to teach, and young people who've just shown up on a bit of a whim. This year we reached out specifically to people who played GeoGesser, a game built around being able to pinpoint where on earth you are based on Google Street View imagery and ask them to join our investigation. Lots of them live remotely and can't show up for something like a tree planting day, but they certainly showed up for this. Our gamers make up some of our most dedicated and effective investigators, especially when there's a little healthy competition involved. So if you ever picture an environmental investigator again, don't picture someone alone in a Jeep with a water testing kit and a GPS. Picture 2,000 people cracking a case together. And if you think that you might have what it takes to join our team of citizen investigators, you can look up ACF Investigates.
SPEAKER_05Um with a pair of binoculars. I am definitely not thinking of gamers.
SPEAKER_00No, I love the gamifying approach to this. It's very clever.
SPEAKER_05Also highlights just how broad the skill set is of people who can engage for our environment, you know. We do still need people out on country and rangers and um that sort of skill set. And birdwatching, you know, is one of the biggest parts of our citizen science scientist community. But then to think of the skills that are being brought by these thousands of people is pretty cool.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and I guess also that evolution of what it takes to engage in the movement is also data analytics and building gaming tools. Like there's every step in that puzzle that has evolved.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I think it's such a great example of a role that an environmental NGO can play in being that conduit between helping communities access tools that do the work we need to happen at scale, but then feeding that information back to the regulator. It's very different from the idea of a kind of typical quote unquote campaign. It's kind of BAU has to happen constantly. And it's such a good way for them to aggregate that information at scale.
SPEAKER_05It is also a shift. We know that people people obviously want to see um decision makers take action. We see people wanting to sign petitions and write letters that you know there is always going to be somewhat of an appetite it calling others to account, but people are also sick of being ignored and having knowing that the petition you signed hasn't been looked at. And people want to get on with the job of protecting our environment themselves. This is a really practical, hands-on way to be a part of the solution.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I and it's from a comms perspective.
SPEAKER_05I feel like over the years, like I reflect on some of the more gimmicky tools, and you know no, comms people don't use gimmicks odet ever.
SPEAKER_02But you know, like I think back to some campaigns we ran maybe 15 odd years ago, and gamification was like the trending language of the time, and it was all about trying to engage people, you know, with these silly rewards. But then you look at where that's evolved to in quite a meaningful way, that it's it's actually almost stumped me a little bit that we've actually gotten to a point of being able to turn it's the same as QR codes when they came out with COVID. And you're like, oh, there is a practical, meaningful use for this thing. And then suddenly QR codes are everywhere. But you know, 20 years ago, wine execs were trying to get QR codes into marketing and advertising campaigns, and you're like, why wouldn't you just type in the address? But now it's like that evolution of the technology actually makes sense for the time and place.
SPEAKER_05And it's so accessible. I mean, this is an example, Sanayar, she pointed out, of a large collective of people using this through the formal power of a large not-for-profit organization. But I know of people, including one of Weller's founders, individuals who are able to use these tools by themselves at home. And one of our founders, a much older woman who's perhaps not the person who comes to mind when you think of what some of these um gamer types might be using using the tech, but who taught herself to use um Google Maps and Google satellite tools and was able to track the complete failure of government agencies to require rehabilitation of land after logging. She could put that together herself, send it off to the regulator, send it off to the media, get major news stories covered, um, all through fully accessible tools that she taught herself to use at home. It's a really um big world out there for people who want to use this stuff.
SPEAKER_01And so important because Vic, as you were telling Odette and I earlier, a lot of this logging happens illegally.
SPEAKER_05Oh yeah. Oh yeah, this is this is absolutely and known to be illegal. Uh Australia is one of the worst global hotspots for illegal logging outside of the Amazon. It is shocking how widespread this is.
SPEAKER_02She is the co-founder of Project Planet and also of Build a Ballot, a digital tool that you might have also been using already that helps voters compare where candidates and parties stand on the issues that matter to them. In 2025, Build a Ballot was used by nearly 600,000 Australians to help inform their vote. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast, Tegan. Thanks for having me. Yeah, well, I think um, you know, I discovered your work several years ago, where I discover all great things on social media and really loved watching the campaign for Build a Ballot and seeing, well, from a comms perspective, the incredible collaborations that you um secured that really put your work on the radar and in the algorithms of so many people. Before we dive into your work, let's sort of go back a little bit and talk about where you started off and where this sort of um idea came from.
SPEAKER_04I guess to get started, you should know that Project Planet is an organization that I co-founded with a girl called Lizzie. Um, she is like such a powerhouse. I feel genuinely grateful every day to have been introduced to her. Um, but we both had sort of separate journeys into wanting to work in climate. Um my perspective, like, I didn't grow up exposed to climate in any way. Um, I'm from a regional town in New South Wales, um, and my family are like super conservative. I I had no idea. And then I went to boarding school in the Gold Coast. Like it didn't, it didn't have the best, like I wasn't exposed to a lot of like very um broad ideas, I would say. Um, but I moved to Sydney for uni in my first share house. I lived in a house of people that my parents would call greenies, which was like not a very it wasn't a term of endearment um when they said that. Um, but it was so like I just learned so much, like living out of home and living with these people and like being exposed to new ideas. That's it. I was studying commerce and I just like landed in the majors that I did because I wanted it to be easy and I didn't really need what I was doing. Um, so I have a marketing uh major from a commerce degree, um, which has helped me a lot in my career. You will you will um come to learn. Um, but I finished my degree and um at the end of 2019, so the black summer bushfires were absolutely insane. Lived in Sydney, as I said, but Um, like the the region that I'm from in New South Wales was like absolutely ravaged by those fires and continue to be by various different climate disasters. Um, and then COVID hit, so it was genuinely like it was a it was a such a blessing for my sort of career trajectory because I got to take a beat and actually think about what I wanted to do. Um, because everyone in my climate's degree, all of the lecturers, it just felt like they wanted you to like go and work for a big four or work in like FMCG, like Woolworths or Coles. And I was like, I don't really want to sell products for the rest of my life. Like that doesn't feel right to me. Um, and in my time uh sort of thinking about the world and and where I fit among it uh while I was um back in Coff's Harbor over COVID, I sort of was like, oh, I'm really interested in how I could do something to make a difference when it came to climate change, and especially in the face of the bushfires that we just gone through. So I ended up going back to uni um and studied a Masters of Sustainability. And like it was genuinely life-changing. Like that course was so cool. I learned so much stuff. It like genuinely changed my entire worldview. Um, and amidst that I was like, oh my god, like everyone needs to know this information. It's it like this is changing my life. Um, and had this marketing degree in my back pocket. So decided to start posting about it on social media. Um, classic Gen Z. And yeah, separate to that, Lizzie, she was an elite athlete um and sort of saw the impacts of the bushfires in that way, like wasn't able to train. Um, and she was, she's like very switched on when it comes to politics, I would say, much more, much more than me. Um, and uh particularly around the 2022 election or in the lead up to it, um she found a lot of people asking her, like, oh, how can I vote for the climate? And how do I even navigate our electoral system? And yeah, in response to that, she was like, okay, well, let's let's try and make elections a little bit easier to navigate for people. And the 2022 election, um, there was such a focus on climate. People were really prioritizing that in their vote off the back of like the school strikes, the bushfires, like there was so much momentum around it. Um, so she essentially like on her own built a small version of what Buildaballot has become, but it was really tailored around climate policy and completely burnt herself out in the process of that. And we like all good founder stories. Exactly. Um, and we were connected by a mutual friend throughout that sort of election campaign. Um, and the rest is history, really. She, I mean, she tried to give me Project Planet. She was like, I've started this brand, like it houses uh it houses the sort of voting tool that she'd created for the 2022 election. It was like a beautiful brand. Like she's she's a graphic designer and a brand designer, among many other things. And I was like, wait, this is too much, and I don't know how to do this on my own. Let's just let's just do it together and figure it, figure it out as we go.
SPEAKER_02Wow. I mean, I feel like the fact that you found one another is a gift to all of us. The you know, you being able to continue driving that energy forward.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, it was it was definitely a a blessing in disguise. I I mean it's so crazy to me that to think that this one random like mutual friend connected us and we've been working together now for nearly five years.
SPEAKER_05It's a really beautiful connection story. I'm interested though that it's also those fires that fired you up, for want of a better term, and and got you involved. Because Saniah, I think your origin and connection into climate was another set of bushfires as well, wasn't it?
SPEAKER_01Yes. Uh Black Saturday. That was, yeah, and it was actually the 10-year anniversary of Black Saturday when I was like, oh, we really have not done what I thought we would do in 10 years. I think I need to go work on the Yeah.
SPEAKER_04It's it's crazy thinking about like you hit those like milestones after these massive climate disasters, and you think like, surely we've made more progress than this, but then like it's always like two steps forward, like 10 steps back.
SPEAKER_05You obviously see a lot of value in that build a ballot tool. But how is that different from any other how-to-vote card that other lots of organizations and different sorts of sectors have been creating for decades?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, that's a great question. And it's just it just works so differently. I think uh in the voting tool that Lizzie created for the 2022 election, sort of issue that she had identified then was like, yes, there are all of these organizations that are creating these how-to-vote cards, but it doesn't necessarily help you in your specific electorate. Um, and particularly with 2022 as well, there were all of these new names of independent candidates in certain electorates around the country. And what if they're in my electorate and I they're not on this how-to vote card? Like, I don't know what to do. Um, and another question that we had uh sort of with the inception of Build a Ballot was how is this different to ABC's Vote Compass? Which is another incredible tool. Um it's funny, we ended up uh talking about it in like, okay, there's like a three-step process to voting. First of all, people can use Vote Compass if they want to figure out where they sort of sit on the political spectrum. Because it basically does just put you like on an axis, left, right, where are you sitting? Then you can use Builder Ballot because you're answering questions about specific policies or policies in response to these sort of issues. And based on that, it gives you a percentage match score to candidates and parties in your specific electorate. Um and then you can create your own personalized voting plan to email or screenshot for yourself to take with you to the ballot box on election day. And then last but not least, make sure you check out democracy sausage so that you know if there's a good sausage to your local primary school so you don't miss out.
SPEAKER_01So can I can I check then? That means that you are doing research and you know you're talking to policy experts for the entire lecture. That's that's a huge amount of work. Yeah, we've given ourselves a lot of work to do. Um is it just you and Lizzie doing that work? So you've got volunteers for last year's federal.
SPEAKER_04Um, basically, yes, Lizzie worked on the sort of like tool side itself. So, like the UX UI design of the tool, and then worked with a developer to basically pull it all together. And I worked on the policy side. I don't have a policy background. I just like really delved into my research and spoke to a lot of experts as well. Like I just identified so many um like individuals from think tanks and from universities and relied on relationships that I had uh had built previously. Like the climate council like continued to be so great for us, but like particularly uh in any sort of climate-related issue area or policies, we relied on them. Yeah, I I I had a lot of cold calls to people. Um, my my scariest one, um, I called Alan Cola. I got his phone number somehow. Um, and I had to, because it didn't exist yet. Half of the issue was trying to explain to people what we were trying to do to get them over the line to help us.
SPEAKER_05And you're just like, hey Al, got a minute.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. He's like, Who are you? But he was so helpful. Like people are genuinely so helpful if you're like, if you just ask nicely.
SPEAKER_05So that's actually such a powerful lesson. I have learned that so many times in the last 20 years of activism and change making, that people want to help. And a lot of people are thrilled to be asked. Never step back from that. I love that as your story.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, no, I I've I've done a lot of cold calling, which feels again very difficult for me as a Gen Z. I don't like a phone call. Um, I've had to learn the hard way. Um, and I've cashed in a lot of favors. Uh thankfully, Lizzie and I have spent a lot of time over the last couple of years just making friends. It's a huge part of our strategy, um, which meant we were able to pull off the like campaign partnerships that you mentioned, um, Odette, like with Heaps Normal and Gelato Messina. They were our big ones from the election last year.
SPEAKER_02Let's talk about launching Build a Ballot because I think that from start to finish is such a good learning opportunity for other change makers that want to kind of take some lessons from what you did.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, gosh, there's a lot, a lot to unpack here. I think what's important to share is that Lizzie and I just happen to have like a really great skill set to work together on. Like we both have marketing backgrounds, she has a design background. So any of the like branding that you've seen across Project Planet, across Builder Ballot, like she has done all of that. And it's an expense that we don't have to worry about, which is always a major expense in campaigns. Like there is a lot of money that goes into the graphic design of these things that uh I think a regular person just wouldn't even consider. Um and yeah, I mean, skill like learn to phone call, the cold call, um, and have like the capacity just to do like a lot of research. Um and yeah, it it just made it a lot easier for two girls with some help from volunteers to be able to pull off something so massive.
SPEAKER_02At the end of the day, you had 600,000 people engage in that what you were doing when you were mapping out um how you would take that to market. What did you have in mind? And then what actually happened?
SPEAKER_04I'm gonna start at the very end and say, like, a lot of people came to us after saying, like, how did you do this? Or I have an idea for a tool, how will this work? And uh like our capacity or our knowledge of marketing is what made it happen. I think like uh there are probably plenty of really incredible tools that have been designed and planned and prototyped in the past that have just not got off the ground because that's as far as they've been able to take it. Um, and a tool is only useful if people use it. So yes, I mean, there is so much that went into the back end, like the policy side of it all, and the communication that we had to have with like hundreds of candidates across the country. Um, but the marketing of it is what made it happen and is what builds trust with audiences who are like, what is this random tool that I've never heard of that has just appeared? Particularly in the day and age that we're in. Like when you don't know what you can trust on the internet, like there is so much trust that is built in a marketing campaign. So I mean, we didn't have money to start with. We hardly had money to pay ourselves. Lizzie and I both dug into our savings to do this. Um, so we absolutely had no money for a marketing campaign, which meant we just had to be incredibly creative in the way that we got it in front of people. As I mentioned, um, we've spent a lot of time building friends over the years, very key to this strategy. Um, some of these friends are people that have large social media followings, which is incredibly useful. Um but also, yeah, that's another thing. Like people came to us after Build a Ballot, after the election campaign last year, saying, like, oh, well, how do I get Hannah Ferguson or how do I get Abby Chatfield to share this campaign? And I'm like, well, have you thought about just being their friend? Like, you can't just like hold DM an influencer and expect them to share your campaign. Like, to be honest, uh, I I followed Cheek Media when they had like 2,000 followers on Instagram and could see the vision and messaged Hannah years ago to be like, hey, I think we should like catch up. We probably have some things in common. Um so making friends is a key part of any strategy that I can recommend to people out there. Um and yes, so the influencers were a big part of that, and of course, like our own owned social media channels. Like we launched the Build a Ballot Instagram ahead of that, and it was really important to us. Like, there are some voters out there who don't want to do their research, but come across a tool like Build a Ballot and go, I'll give this like a couple minutes, have a good idea of how I want to vote based off my values and take it away. But there are also voters who want to know more about our system, who want to do deeper research before they're making those decisions. So we saw our Instagram account and our website as a really important channel for civic education, which our website in particular has like paid dividends in our sort of like it just being an SEO strategy for us, for the marketing nerds on the book.
SPEAKER_05By SEO for our listeners, you mean search engine optimization.
SPEAKER_02I love that like Victoria's coming in with her big marketing flex.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, that's uh that's what I'm here for.
SPEAKER_04We even like off-handedly were like, oh, what if we created like a digital conversation card deck that lived on the website and we get so much search traffic still to our website from people Googling things like, how can I talk about politics with my boyfriend? Like it is crazy.
SPEAKER_05Um I think you might have just come up with the title of this episode.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01Yes. I wanna, so you started this relying on your savings. How are you funded now?
SPEAKER_04So it's a lot easier to um fundraise off the back of a successful campaign when there's like a physical product with like data points that philanthropists can rely on, which fair enough. Like to we started pitching for funding at the end of 2024. I had I'd never pitched to a philanthropist before. Like the learning curve was steep. Um, our pitch deck wasn't very good, but again, like we were really grateful to rely on some people that like we've just met over the years who have experience in there or do work in philanthropy and were able to share like really great learnings with us to make our pitches better. Um, and also rely on our um board who we created because we know that they've been successful in fundraising in the past.
SPEAKER_05You also mentioned partnerships, though, as well. Are those corporate partnerships part of your funding strategy? Are they part of your outreach and audience strategy, or is it a bit of both?
SPEAKER_04Uh to date, they have just been a part of our outreach strategy. Um, that said off the back, well, so I mentioned Heaps Normal was one of our brand partners, and I can use them as a good example. So I just happened to work uh in a marketing agency in a previous job with a girl who I knew worked at Heaps Normal, had moved over there after we stopped working at the same agency. So I reached out to her one day and said, like, hey, who who can you introduce me to? Like, who's the marketing manager at Heaps Normal? I've got an idea. And like politics at the Powerboard, the idea of like having a beer and talking about like politics has is something that already existed. So I was like, let's like we can play on this. Let's do a partnership with Heats Normal. And Lizzie was like, I people are always talking about how preferential voting works. Um, and Lizzie had come up with this idea that the easiest way to explain preferential voting was with like at the time it was like a couple glasses of water on the table, and you're like pouring in and blah blah blah. There's a great uh video on our Instagram if you want to check it out. It has almost half a million views, maybe more so now. Then yeah, we were like, okay, let's let's take that idea and run with it, but with beers, like schooner glasses, a jug of beer at the pub. And heaps normal were like, yeah, that sounds great. Like, we'd be happy to, like, we can um post it as a collaboration post on Instagram. No worries. So that piece of content blew up, as I mentioned, like around half a million views. It's the best piece of content that Heaps Normal has ever had on their social media. Um, and off the back of that, they were like, oh wow, like this gave us an opportunity to talk about politics in a way that isn't uh going to like scare off um potential audience. Because that's the thing, like there are a lot of brands that are hesitant to step into talking about politics because they feel like they're gonna alienate an another type of audience. But with something like Buildaballot, it's genuinely so brand safe because by attaching your name to it, you're not telling people how to vote. Sorry, you're not telling people who to vote for, you're telling them how to vote.
SPEAKER_05Can you really be non-partisan though? Like it's interesting because trust is like right at the guts of this, right? You said it yourself before. This is all about whether people trust you. And here you you want audiences to trust you and users, you want brands to be trusted as well. Um, but you also have your own political views. We're in a really extreme uh period of politicization and um with some pretty extreme politics out there as well. How do you genuinely be nonpartisan in that? And can you be trusted to be?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, good question. Um, I mean, it's you don't have to do any digging to know that Builder Ballot is created by Project Planet, which is a climate organization. Like we're very clear about that on our About page on our website. Um, and uh, like, yes, there's always going to be questions about climate within the tool, not only because we have to, because it's a charitable purpose, but also because climate change is one of the biggest, if not the biggest, intergenerational issue that we're facing. So it would be irresponsible of us to create a tool that is designed to help voters navigate our voting system based on the issues that have intergenerational impacts and not include climate. Um, but that said, in the tool itself, for it to be useful, for it to be able to tell voters how they align with parties and candidates, we have to include policies and ideas around policies from across the political spectrum. So, in the way that we decide what those are, we are having countless conversations with experts to actually understand from the sort of suite of policies that exist from across the political spectrum, what are the ones that actually have tangible outcomes, positive outcomes for voters, if voters were to base their decision off that? Um, and we yeah, we have to include policies from across the political spectrum in order for people to get an actual usable outcome after using BuildBallot.
SPEAKER_02Um, Vic and I and Tanaya and I were discussing earlier about who the audience is. Um can you talk a little bit about the demographics of who engages with this sort of tool?
SPEAKER_04So we initially for in our planning for the 2025 election, because we didn't have a budget for a marketing campaign, we and because we knew we were gonna get the tool out there based on influencers sharing it, based on our partnerships with brands, um, we were like, okay, young people are probably gonna use this tool. It's gonna land in their hands a lot easier than older demographics. Um, but it was actually, and and look, our our largest demographics were between the ages of 18 and 40. Um that said, uh, seeing the data afterwards, I was like, I was shocked. Every single demographic, every single electorate in the country, like it was crazy to see how far and wide this spread. Um, and it was really interesting. Like again, in our way of communicating um or our sort of call to action essentially was to like use the tool and then send it on. Use the tool, send it in your group chat, use the tool, send it to your parents. Um and because of that, it actually enabled people. Young people to start conversations about politics that they probably otherwise would feel a little bit hesitant to. Like we had an amazing story about someone who did build a ballot like over the dinner table with their parents and their grandparents. Everyone was sitting there doing it. And this person's grandmother is like a lifelong liberal voter who completed the tool and her highest match was with the greens. And grandma was shocked.
SPEAKER_05Grandma would have been really shocked and maybe a little distressed.
SPEAKER_04Grandma was shocked and said, I can't vote for the Greens. My like my late partner will turn in the grave. So I'll just vote for Labour. Which is genuinely insane when you think about like this narrative that we have that voters are rusted on, and you can never change the vote of like a 40 plus, and voters are just getting more conservative as they get older because that's the reality of the world. Like, no, it turns out a tool like Build a Ballot that took grandma three minutes to do is changing her lifelong vote. Um, and it's just it's just genuinely like how do you position these conversations rather than it being like an attack? It's uh like by allowing people to engage with policy without thinking about a party that has that policy, it's allowing people to think a little bit more deeply and maybe question the assumptions that they have been using for their voting decisions for their entire life. Um, and as we sort of we're uh launching builder ballot for state elections now, um, both as a way for us to continue to improve our processes and our methodology and and everything internally as we as we start planning for the next federal election, but also because there's there's three really important states. We had South Australia earlier this year, we've got Victoria in in November and New South Wales in March next year. It just gives us an opportunity to find more of these voters so that we can continue to build that trust with them and so that they can be among the people that use Build a Ballot at when it launches and and who send it into their group chats so that that's how it sort of like has that outward approach.
SPEAKER_01And so you mentioned South Australia. I I'm very curious, uh, and I don't quite understand. So you might need to explain to us. Do you get data back from the users about whether it's influenced their vote? And if so, do you get any more insights that are kind of coming out of the various elections? So South Australia, for example, is the first election we've had since the rise in poly of One Nation. Did you notice anything that was trending in the tool that you could see at the back end that helped you develop insights around that?
SPEAKER_04So because of the way that we had to throw everything together before the 2025 election, we uh it was just like an overlook, an oversight for us. Um, but our back end wasn't set up in a way that captured the data in the best way. Turns out you really do need like a data person in the back end to set that stuff up.
SPEAKER_02Um and really I mean, that's the challenge of um, you know, you you go start something thinking that you um are educating through content and next level next minute you're a UX designer, a web developer, a policy analyst, and also a data scientist. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, we're wearing many hats. Luckily, um like super recently in the last month or two, we were introduced to someone who's finally started going through all of the data because it's just been sitting there, but we haven't had the expertise nor the cash sitting around to be able to go through it or pay someone to go through it. Um, and we finally started doing that. But yeah, what we've realized is the way that the data was captured isn't necessarily the best data. So we ideally would have loved to release a report to say like this is the the big sort of stories that came out of Builder Ballot from the 2020, 2025 election, um, mostly because it was a far greater data set in size. Um, but it also means now we understand what's needed from a back-end perspective and we'll be able to capture that data um in the Victorian and New South Wales elections, which will be super exciting. Again, I I don't think that we're slowing down um that sort of one nation rise that you mentioned. So we'll we can capture some data.
SPEAKER_01Well, I mean, like it's not even it's not even necessarily slowing it down, it's understanding it, right? From your from the way that people are engaging with the tool and how those conversations are happening. Um, I'll be super in interested if yeah, if you release a report detailing that.
SPEAKER_04We absolutely will. And it's something that, yeah, we wish we could do now, but it's the data just isn't where we would like it. But there is so much power, and we understand that in the data that we're collecting. Like in some ways it's it's polling because we have an understanding of what the most popular policies are for certain issue areas, which is like a gold mine. And there is no polling agency company out there that's looking at data sets as big as what we're capturing. What's really interesting and what we're like super excited for in future is by capturing that data, we will like in whatever format we publish it, we probably will make it a slightly more exciting than just a report. Um, maybe some like visual stuff. Who knows? I don't do design, at least you can figure it out. Um but we'll publish that like for like everyday person down the street can look at that, and also like Anthony Albanese can look at it, right? Like the way that we publish it won't be different. But the like by making that data public, we can sort of try our best to close the loop between the way that voters want to see action on an issue area and actually sort of push that towards decision makers to say, like this percentage of people or in your electorate, for example, want to see action on this. What are you doing about it? Like where the way that we see this growing is like we can really get down into like electorate by electorate and then say, like, go into your local MP's office and say, like, this percentage of people in this demographic want this action. Like, how are you going to respond to that? Um, and really hold them to account in that way.
SPEAKER_02I feel like that feedback loop is just so outrageously valuable. And I feel, you know, how many times people feel like their phone call, email, petition is ineffective because you don't see what that looks like on um a minister's desk. And that that, you know, being able to share that information, I think is going to be really powerful in holding people to account.
SPEAKER_04As we see data around like trust in institutions declining, like there is such a big question that our politicians need to uh to answer to. And it's like, well, why aren't you taking action on the things that your voters care about? Like you're being elected and then like stepping back when what X percentage of your electorate wants to see stronger action on climate. So what are you doing about it? Um, and and if you're not going to do anything about it, like fine, we'll just elect someone different in the next election.
SPEAKER_01I think the way that you wield that power in having that data will be really important for maintaining the nonpartisan status and tribes. Absolutely. Um yeah, because it's so easy for that to be lost if people think that the information is going to be used in this way that they're not intending.
SPEAKER_05Exactly. So you're using this tool, this data, driving education, driving engagement around democracy and strengthening democracy at a time that it is definitely under threat right across the world. And it's wonderful to see such an innovative use of technology in this way. But we're also seeing uh technology be used in really wildly unhelpful ways at the moment. There's a lot of examples of that around. We we actually had our one of our um recent podcast interviews was looking at the role of of tech with um clean tech in particular, and there's some really good examples and some really bad examples. How are you feeling with this great project underway about the role of technology at the moment in the changes we need to make and particularly on climate?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I I think I mentioned this a little bit in my contribution a couple weeks ago. Uh like I think used in the right way, technology is so powerful to enable participation from groups that otherwise wouldn't engage. Um and that is so powerful. But yeah, it's difficult when um there are technologies available or there's like growth at an exponential rate of AI that like yes could be used to solve some really incredible like lifelong problems that we've faced, but also in the wrong hands can do the exact opposite. And AI is being used to um like deploy bots or like to comment and shift sentiment in a negative way or to post like deepfakes of your local MP saying something that they otherwise wouldn't, like it's super scary. Um and yeah, like it is it's no surprise to me that the levels of trust in like everything is in decline because like how can people know what to trust and how can they know what's real and when their attention is being like mined by social media companies in one direction? Like, what do you actually do about that? I can't remember. This is a little bit of a tangent, but I was having a conversation with someone the other day, and they said they were like on the on a plane looking over to the road next to them, like like a young girl, probably like a teenager, she's like scrolling on her phone, and they were just watching like her consume like one nation like propaganda reels. And you just like people are landing in these rabbit holes. Um, that how do you get out of them? It's it is crazy.
SPEAKER_01Well, that goes back to your earlier point about sort of the thinking on closing the Project Planet social media account website. Can you tell us a little bit more about where you think the state of play is at? Because lots of people that are in this change-making work are still needing to use those platforms. What has influenced your decision to do that and shift to a more conversational style of approach where you're reaching your community in a different way?
SPEAKER_04We weren't necessarily set up in like a newsroom style, which meant we had the capacity to be like first responders to news and really like get ahead of it and have those sort of hot takes that do so well on the internet. Um, and that do help people grow. I feel like anyone who's growing an audience on social media is in some way engaging in like a hot take or like rage bait or like angertainment, bit of a word of the moment. Um, shout out to Ed Coper and his book. Um yeah, like if you're not doing that, then it it feels like hitting a wall, which is so frustrating to us with our sort of shift away from Project Planet um towards the publication and the podcast that we're launching later this year, like it is kind of a direct challenge to that. I think, like, despite the fact that social media algorithms very much reward short form hot takes, like there is such a shift of audience towards platforms like Substack. People are really engaging in long-form content. Podcasts are as strong as ever. Like, there are audiences that are hungry for that type of content, and I would much rather find them and invest my time into starting and modeling and having better, more meaningful conversations that shift away from the hot takes and allow us to explore nuance and ask difficult questions and grapple with difficult topics, then lean into the angertainment of it all.
SPEAKER_05I love that as a choice for you, both personally and professionally. I can hear the data that's informing those decisions, but also the personal uh interest and personal sustainability really matters in this work. Um, yeah, which you can get in a whole range of ways. One way that some of us keep ourselves energetically charged and sustainable is through grossing this one. Did you see what I did? Love it. Tegan, do you dance? And if so, what is one of your best dancing stories?
SPEAKER_04Oh, this is crazy. Okay, do I dance? Yes. Um, one of my favorite things to do, uh, like most cherished things, is dance in the kitchen with my partner while we're making dinner. Um, it is always so much fun. My dancing story, I would say I used to be a massive festival attendee. Um, I have been to too many Splendor in the grasses and falls to count. Um and in particular, the the Splendor that was dubbed Splendor in the mud. I for the first day got cancelled.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I was there.
SPEAKER_04You were epic and so muddy. Yeah, I was there and I just had the best time in the world. I danced in the mud. I didn't swim in the mud like some people were doing, that is crazy. Um, but I definitely came home with a layer of mud on my body that took hours to scrub off. But yeah, I think there is no time that I feel more joyful than seeing live music and dancing to live music. And I've had plenty of incredible memories at Splendor. So I think that stands out.
SPEAKER_02Oh, well, there's nothing quite like being covered in mud and just cutting loose. Um, Tegan, it's been such a treat to have you to come and have a chat about your work with Project Planet and Buildaballet, and we're really excited to see everything that is coming with the new podcast and the SharePlate. It's wonderful to see that you are evolving and extending out um the nuance and bringing these conversations in such a delicious way. Thank you for all the work that you have done. And um, we're very grateful to have a smart human out there helping to educate and inspire people to engage in our democracy.
SPEAKER_05Thank you. Yeah, power to you, Tegan. Really, really incredible work.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, can't wait to see what comes out of the next elections.
SPEAKER_05Go tune.
SPEAKER_02Okay, well, that is Tegan. Tell me. What were your reflections, Sanaya?
SPEAKER_01I found that conversation so interesting and could have gone down many different rabbit holes with her. Um, I am fascinated by the decision to move away from what they have been doing for the last five years because the underlying algorithms and ways that the tools are working have changed so fundamentally that they actually cannot achieve their objectives. I think that's a really uh interesting um uh issue for uh content creators to deal with more broadly. And the solution that they've come to sound like it's going to it's it's it's bold, like it's a bold decision to be like, okay, we're gonna stop doing this and we're gonna start doing this other thing over here that leads to deeper conversations when all of these platforms have geared our brains to go for short form things. Uh I I personally think it's great. Um, but I'm I yeah, I think it's a bold move and really um keen to see where it goes.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's interesting because I think like from a comms perspective, you know, for such a long time we've been operating in a fast-moving, changing digital landscape that one year one particular strategy works, the next year it's a slightly tweaked version of that. But I feel like in the last couple of years, it's been radical shifts in what works and what's we're getting cut through. And I know Vic, you had mentioned when we talked with um Anjali, and you know, I was sort of, you know, getting in a tiz about how, you know, the um under 16s not having access to social media was going to have such a significant impact. And yet you flagged how, you know, this is something that changemakers have been dealing with for eons, the um, you know, different ways that we have to communicate. But I feel like at the moment the pace of changing digital landscapes for communicating with our audiences is just speeding up.
SPEAKER_05I agree. And the then the challenge is the people who can keep up are the ones with the most funding and and the most resources, which is really the community. Uh, and so you see that entrenching power and um and consolidation of voices to be the same sorts of voices, and and we know where that takes us. But I get how are your clients? I mean, you work in comms, you're a PR expert, how are your clients coping with all of this?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think there's a lot of people that are feeling the stress and pressure of having to move from being an organizer to an influencer and feeling that hunger of the algorithmic landscape and their, you know, need to basically have a content creator with them at all times, following them around to, you know, be the face of a brand. But what we're seeing so much of is that draw to community offline and um, you know, that desire for people to connect at events and you know come together. But the challenge that like most organizations are faced with, you have to have an audience to be able to create community activations. And so many people are then at that like tension point of how do you tell people about the in-person community activation if you don't have your own owned channels that are already built. So um, you know, I I think it's that same challenge that we've seen for a while is that that pulling the ladder up behind you, it's fine to let go, you know, and create like online community, uh in-person communities, but um for those that are coming into this space at the moment, um, the the starting point is so much further along.
SPEAKER_05I think one of the things I really loved about this interview is it's just great to talk to someone who's willing to fight for democracy. You know, that feels really um uh tough at the moment in Australia and more broadly, and just that energy for we need a healthy democracy, and I'm willing to make these new tools and get amongst it and make it possible. I just really enjoyed that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and also not being um raised on it as well, right? Like finding her own way into the work, not being spoon-fed into um activism. And I know that sounds like a silly thing to say, but I I feel like there's there is so much um pressure to feel like you have to know all the answers, and lovely to see someone that has, you know, found their own way in.
SPEAKER_01And that probably really helps with the way that the tool is used because, you know, the two of them are thinking about a broad audience, and the reason they're stepping out of what they've been doing is they don't want to talk to the bubble, they want to get further, they want to reach the grandma at the table who's gonna spend three minutes doing the survey. Like I think that is really such a key part of how they've been able to be so successful so far. And now that they're maturing and sort of thinking about the data capture and what they can do with it, it'll be really interesting to see how it plays out as a force within the political dialogue.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. I think that's a very good place to finish. Well, thank you, Vic. Thank you, Saniaya. That's a wrap on another episode of There Will Be Dancing. If you've enjoyed this podcast, then please join us again in the next fortnight. And please subscribe and share and tell all your friends and family the links are in the show notes. Thanks to our producer, Matt Siegel from Green Thumb Media, theme music by Alice Ivy. Until next time,