Women Redefining Higher Education Leadership

What does it truly look like to transition from the classroom to the administrative suite? In this episode of Beyond the Syllabus: Pedagogy and Purpose, we harness the collective wisdom of three exceptional higher education leaders to explore the lived experience of rising through the academic ranks.

Joining the conversation are Dr. Tarra Ellis, Dean of the Thayer School of Education at Wingate University, Dr. Carrie Hoefferle, VP and Dean of the Cannon College of Arts and Sciences at Wingate University, and Laura Hunt, Provost and Chief Academic Officer at Bluegrass Community and Technical College and former Provost at Wingate University.

Together, we dive into the unique structural challenges women face in high-ranking roles, from navigating institutional change to overcoming imposter syndrome and establishing authority. Our guests share tangible, real-world strategies for targeting impactful committees and balancing the teacher-scholar identity with administrative responsibility. Whether you are a faculty member considering a leadership track or a seasoned administrator looking to co-create more inclusive, affirming spaces for the next generation, this episode offers an authentic roadmap for purpose-driven leadership.

Explore episode extras and more at Behind the Mic: ⁠www.gobeyondthesyllabus.com⁠. 

#HigherEducation #WomeninHigherEd #BeyondTheSyllabus #WomenInLeadership #WomenInAcademia 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:03

So, welcome to Beyond the Syllabus, Pedagogy and Purpose. Today we are exploring what it looks like to climb the ranks in higher education. We've done several episodes focusing on our students and setting them up for success. But what about us? What about the faculty? What about women in higher education? And we talk about this transition for our students from the academic side into the career side, but let's look at that transition from classroom teaching into administration. So today I am joined by Dr. Tara Ellis, the Dean of the Thayer School of Education. I'm also joined by Dr. Carrie Hefferell, VP and Dean of the Canon College of Arts and Sciences, both at Wingott University. And we also have Dr. Laura Hunt, uh former provost of um uh Wingett University and now provost and chief academic officer at Bluegrass Community and Technical College. That was a whole lot to say in that first sentence. So welcome, ladies. Thank you so much. So I gave the introduction, but I never can really give justice to who you are and what you've done. So we'll start with Carrie and just tell a little bit about your background.

SPEAKER_02 1:31

So I am originally from Michigan and I got my bachelor's, master's, and joint PhD from Central Michigan University in history and history education. So my um my bachelor's degree, I went through student teaching and um all the education classes and decided that I really wanted to teach in college. And so I continued on. Um my joint PhD was with Strathclyde University in Scotland, so I got to spend half of my PhD studying in Scotland as well. And um I've published a few books and quite a few articles, um, done the faculty thing full on onto full tenured professor. Um and and then I gradually moved into leadership. And uh so for the last over 10 years now, 15 years, I have been in kind of progressive leadership roles at Wingate University. Tara.

SPEAKER_01 2:37

Um I'm Tara Ellis, and I am this is 31 years in the space of education for me. So I have a similar background as Carrie in that I started out in K-12 education and I really never left K-12 education. Um, but I was one who always knew that I wanted to be an educator. Um, I love education, I love teaching. Teaching is my passion. So I started out um K-12, you know, I did the North Carolina Teaching Fellows Scholarship, all of that, UNC Chapel Hill, came and taught Charlotte Meckenberg Schools, um, did the master's and PhD programs at UNC Charlotte. Um so I've been in the space of education um mainly as a classroom teacher, but also taking on some leadership roles in that area too. Um, coming to um, I taught at UNC Charlotte. Um, I was a faculty member there for about 10 years before coming, coming here to Wingate. Um and was not looking for any leadership positions. We can get into all that later. Um, not looking for any additional uh leadership positions, but um yeah, here I am.

SPEAKER_00 3:51

All right, thank you. Um that kind of sounds like my track. Well, not my track. I said I was never going to going into education because my mom was in education for 46 years. And I said, no, never. You see where I am, and I love it. It is a it's a calling. And when you figure out that's your calling, you love doing it every single day. So I definitely can relate to that. All right, Laura.

SPEAKER_03 4:18

Yes, thank you so much, Tiffany, for having me. Um, so I didn't come to teaching knowing that I wanted to be an educator. I I simply, I guess, fell into it. I went to graduate school um to study Hispanic studies at University of Kentucky and instantly was a teacher and a TA with no training. Um, and I just loved it. And so I just kept studying until I got my PhD. I had a few visiting assistant professor jobs right out of graduation. And then um I got my first tenure track position at Georgetown College in Georgetown, Kentucky, where I was for many, many years. And I was one of those, I suppose, unique or strange professors who really enjoyed administrative work. I was a department chair at an early age. Um, I enjoyed committee work. I enjoyed learning new aspects of higher ed, study abroad, accreditation, international students, um, many different things. And uh steadily just took on more and more administrative roles until I landed in the provost chair. So I guess that's my path.

SPEAKER_00 5:32

What was that moment that you realized like I want to do this administrative thing?

SPEAKER_03 5:38

For me, the moment was the provost at Dorgetown College asked if I would co-chair a compliance certification team for our decennial reaffirmation for our accreditor sex COC. And I didn't know what that meant. Um, I really didn't know very much about accreditation at all. And at first I thought this is going to be so dry and boring. Um, but I love to learn. And I took it on and I really did enjoy learning about it. But even more, what I enjoyed was assembling a team of people and working together with them to achieve something. And so at the end of that work, it was the collaborative work of learning together and creating something we could be proud of that I think made me realize I can do this, I can do this hard thing. And that group of people did the work with me. We all loved the work together, but they did that work with no promise of compensation whatsoever throughout the summer. And that's when I thought, you know, I can, I can do this. I have the confidence to do this. And um, so from then I I didn't really seek more administrative roles, but they came to me and I and I welcomed them and felt confident to do it.

SPEAKER_02 6:57

I think that similarly, um, it was really just through service on a faculty committee. And I was trying to remember, I think it was the Lyceum Committee that I was on as an assistant professor. I think that was might have been the first one that I chaired. And I only became chair just because I was appointed back then, so I didn't even volunteer. I was just like, okay, you're the chair. At that point, everything was paper. Like people had to submit Lyceum proposals on paper, and the whole committee would photocopy, we'd all get a c a stack of papers that we would go through and we would talk over and then approve them. And and this was gosh, in the early 2000s. So we were well into the computer age, and I thought, you know, there's a better way of doing this. And so I worked with the committee to just create an online forum. And simple as that, and and it was it worked so much more quickly, more efficiently. We got things done, turned around really quickly, and I was like, this is really fun to be able to work with people to solve problems that make our lives better. I was like, oh, maybe that's what leadership's about.

SPEAKER_01 8:18

So for me, I um I mean, all along my journey, I've stepped into like slight leadership roles within my comfort zone of, you know, mentoring, being department chair and those kinds of things. Um but to get to this position, um I was actually the undergraduate education department chair. And that even came about because someone else had moved out of the College of Ed into a different administrative role on campus. And so I was asked directly, you know, I need you to step into this vision. Okay, what does that entail? Um, okay, yeah, all right, I'll do it. And it's never been an issue of whether or not I could do it. Like I knew I could do it, but it's I just never really had a desire to do. Um, you know, I'm I'm happy, I'm comfortable, I love my teaching, that's my passion. You know, I'm serving, I'm doing research, all the all the things, scholarship, all of that. So I'm very comfortable there. And so again, it became a situation where, all right, we need someone to step in as interim. Um, you know, would you be willing to step in as interim? Sure, I'll step in as interim and heavy on the interim. Um, but very similar to what Carrie just said, um, once I got into the role as interim, um absolutely loved it. Surprisingly loved it. Um, I loved it. And faculty were so supportive and they were like, wow, you know, because they saw me differently too. Um, you know, they knew, you know, I'm a worker, I'm gonna get things done, but to see you in a different position, like, can you do this? I even had one faculty member who said to me after the fact, and and he didn't say it like, you know, I was, I didn't think you could do it, but just um, you know, I we didn't know what to expect, you know, we didn't know what to expect, but you know, I'm very, I'm so pleasantly surprised, you know, you have excelled, you have excelled at this and you've done well, done well at this, but being actually in the role, and you know, that's kind of been um for me throughout my journey, kind of having to be pushed into roles. I always say my steps are ordered. So things that I never planned, things that weren't on my vision board. Um, you know, a lot of people are very strategic, like I'm gonna do this, and this was gonna be my next step, and you know, their whole plan to get to whatever their ultimate goal is. And I have plans and goals and that type of thing, but it was never anything related to, you know, admin administration, executive, you know, leadership, that kind of thing. But um, stepping into the role, I knew, you know, you know, you know, you know in your knower, like, okay, yeah, I'm supposed, I'm supposed to be here, I'm supposed to do this.

SPEAKER_00 10:57

Oh, I like that. Okay. So moving, and you talked about this kind of like aha moment, this light bulb of, oh, this is this feels good. This is right. So, as you were saying, you're kind of working with some of your colleagues. How did you balance moving into those type of leadership roles and kind of establishing um authority? But you've you're working with your colleagues, like you were in the trenches together. How did you manage that?

SPEAKER_03 11:26

Well, that's definitely tricky. And you have to kind of know your boundaries. You have to know when it's appropriate to continue as teacher, colleague, friend, and when you're in that administrative role. Um, and so I think you have to have clear, clear boundaries of of what you're what you're willing and able to do and communicate that. Um, it's difficult when you step out of a department and into an administrative role because that department still needs you in so many ways. And so you just need to be clear about what you can and can't do now that you have on this additional role. And almost always for the department, it's going to feel like a loss unless there is a replacement coming in for you, which often isn't the case.

SPEAKER_01 12:19

For me, it was um partly about the timing. So for our unit, um, people were ready because we'd had like interim, we'd had interim, we had leadership change, leadership change. So people were were ready. And I mean, and the fact that I had been doing it as interim, you know, for almost a semester at that point before like the official search started. Um, so that kind of that kind of helped. So people were excited, people were very supportive. They were like, you better apply for this position kind of thing. But once you're in the position, um like you just have to do what you have to do. Like you have to do hard things. Um, yeah, those things are those difficult conversations that you have to have, things that um you know may not be popular that you have to do. And I know more, probably more than anybody. Carrie knows about this because she has a lot of moving parts. Like we have moving parts, but Carrie has a lot of moving parts that she oversees. But I mean, you just have to you have to do it. So you can't, you know, I've heard this said before many, many times, and it's so true. Um, you can't conquer what you won't confront. So I mean, I just feel like some things you just have to like nip them in the butt early because otherwise it turns into a big old monster later on and out of control and sometimes beyond your control. So I think dealing with things like early and um directly, like people don't like the backdoor kind of things. Um, people don't like um passive aggressiveness, like being very direct, but you know, and having a relationship already helped because you know I respect you, you know I love you already. So, you know, you know where this is coming from, a place of respect and a place, a place of love.

SPEAKER_02 14:06

I think that's true. I I think in in terms of the authority, I I think that there are some misperceptions about what authority looks like and how it shows up. And I think that we often have these stereotypes of what leaders act like, like they're assertive, they're the loudest in the room, they're the center of attention, they're the people who are always talking and bossing people around. But I think that leadership is really much more about collaboration. It's about caring about people and they knowing that you care about them and that you're working for the best interest of everybody. Um, and I think that it is an advantage where people know you, that it they know that you work hard, that you um that you're you're careful that you try to do the right things. I think that when people know you, that and you've you've had a really successful um relationship in the past, it's a little bit easier to walk in because you already have the respect of the people who are there. But I think that when you walk into a leadership role somewhere else where you don't know many people or anybody, I think that in those cases, it's a very different situation and kind of establishing yourself and that respect and um building up that reputation that because it's not going to speak for itself anymore. You're gonna have to demonstrate it from day one that you know, your leadership qualities, that you care about them, that you are really honestly trying to do the best thing, um, making yourself very clear in your expectations of yourself and your expectations of others. I think that that saying, clear is kind is so true, especially in leadership. Um, and I think that, you know, Laura, for example, in her role at Wingate, she came from Georgetown to Wingate and where we didn't know her, and she had to establish very quickly the kind of respect, the boundaries that she talked about. And she's gonna have to do that again in her new institution. And I think that that's a that's a heavier lift in some cases, but it doesn't come with the baggage of people who knew you in previous roles, who might be older than you are, or who have been here longer, who might feel like, okay, I I have this idea of who Carrie is and what she's capable of, and it doesn't fit her current role. And so there is some baggage that comes with being a known person in moving into leadership.

SPEAKER_03 16:47

Yeah, I could just add that yes, I think there are advantages to both ways. And if if you are a known quantity, you already have that trust. And it's easier, I think, to have those difficult conversations with someone who already trusts you and they value your opinion as opposed to an outsider where you you must first earn that trust. And that's going to take a little time. You don't have all this kind of capital built up with your colleagues. And um, so yeah, there's there's challenges to both. And I have heard people say that it is hard to move into a provost role, for example, at an institution where you've been, because the folks that have always had easy access to you want to continue to have that. And not that you don't want to give it, but that you just simply don't have the time to do what you did before.

SPEAKER_00 17:40

And I like Carrie, one of the things you said was about you know the ex the expectations of of leadership or you know, this authority or being loud. And you talked you talked about leadership um being loud or aggressive, and I had um Kia on talking about kind of this um gentle leadership. And I think that's one of the things that all of you have said is that it's not about coming in with this aggressive type of I'm now in this position. It's more of I'm still the same person, you know, my traits and values and how we work together. And that mutual respect is there so that when you do have to have, as Tara was saying, those difficult conversations, they know it's not because you know you're power hungry or you're in this position, it's more of you know we have to get this done. We've kind of been in this situation before, we need to correct it. This these are the steps we have to take, but not in an aggressive fashion. But and I like that that common thread of leadership doesn't have to be loud and aggressive. It is more about, as Carrie was saying, collaboration, right? Love that, love that. Um, let's talk about some of those challenges of being in these uh administrative roles that don't show up in in job descriptions and trying to stay focused on where you're going when these things kind of flare up. Um, so let's talk about being a woman in leadership. And this can apply outside of higher education, but finding that balance when you are now in these positions and there may not be other women at the table when you are advocating for your department or for your team or for the university and being a woman in that position, how do you find that balance?

SPEAKER_03 19:31

Well, I think that I have had many female mentors and role models that have sort of shown me the way, but but part of what I'll say is is creating the position that you want is creating is ensuring that the role looks the way that you want it to look, because you are a trailblazer, so you you have to decide what you want it to look like for you. But in terms of specifically being a woman, I mean I think it's true in any in any possession uh profession that you have you have stereotypes to to contend with, um, you have inequities to deal with. I don't think that that's unique to our profession. Um but I think that in any profession you simply need to be you need to be clear, you need to be assertive, you need to know who you are and feel feel confident in in what you want and what you want your role to look like. And sometimes that does mean in the moment correcting people. Sometimes it means letting things roll off your back. You have to kind of decide when it's important to take some sort of stand.

SPEAKER_01 20:51

Oh no, I was just gonna say coming from K-12 where women dominate, it's that's true.

SPEAKER_00 20:58

That is true.

SPEAKER_01 20:58

Um and then coming to higher ed um in leadership positions. Generally speaking, I think um, you know, across the country, you see fewer women the higher up, higher up you go. Um at Wingy, I think we have now at least, I think we have something a little bit different going on now as far as women in leadership positions. Now I bring something a little bit different. I'm a woman, but I'm also a woman of color. So that introduces a different dynamic um of being, you know, I'm not necessarily the only woman in the room, but I'm usually the only person of color or one of two maybe um people of color who are who are in the room. So that brings a different dynamic. But just speaking from um speaking as a woman, I mean, I think just as women, there are things that we just have to learn how to navigate and those fine lines. Like I want, like you need to respect me, but also knowing that like this is a whole system, like this is there's a way, you know, you can get to your end goal, but there's a way that you're gonna have to do it and navigate it. And like uh Laura said, like, I've had Some really good mentors, you know, because I came from a background where I didn't necessarily have like the cultural capital, even going to like predominantly white institutions for my education and that kind of thing. So I've had some really good mentors, even in higher ed, and most of them have actually been white women who have mentored me and kind of taken me under their wings and kind of told me, you know, some of the things that, and they had to learn these things too for me as women too. You know, there were some things that they had to learn how to navigate the space and things that I need to know, things that I need to look out for, things that I need to be aware of, things that you know you're expected to know. And it's like, how would you know this? You're just expected to know, to know certain things. And so, you know, I've been very fortunate to have some um really good mentors. Um, shout out to Janine Jones, um, Professor Emeritus at UNC Charlotte. Um, shout out to Annette Digby, who was here um as one of our interim interim deans. Shout out to Laura Hunt also came in um and was very valuable as well. But so I've had some really good mentors. I think that's very, very important. Like the mentorship is super important, even if you're not assigned. So I was assigned a male mentor when I came in as a faculty member. But um a female mentor, Melanie Keel, another shout out. Um, she kind of and she was just a year ahead of me. And so, but she was she is kind of all right, so I'm a year ahead of you. So I'm gonna get to the you know, tenure and promotion part first. So I'm gonna walk it through, then I'm gonna let you know how that went, what I did, kind of thing. And so she kind of unofficially took me under her wing as well. So I think that mentorship is super, super important, especially for people who've been around longer than you have in this space and who've um you know have more experience and have kind of learned how to navigate. And it may be different here than it is somewhere else. So I learned how to navigate it this way at USC Charlotte, but at Wingate, this is a different ballgame, this is a different arena. So I need to learn, all right, what do I need to know while I'm here?

SPEAKER_02 24:08

Yeah, I think that that that that role of mentors is so important. And I think role models as well. I think that um my mother was a very strong woman, my grandmothers were very strong women, and strong in terms of um being unafraid to speak up when things weren't right, when something was um being said that was incorrect, the the courage to speak up, speak your mind, speak your peace, um, but also the courage to step up too. Like if action's not being taken, if um if you have a solution that nobody's mentioned, to just say, okay, I'm just gonna do it then, because somebody's gotta do it, and if nobody else is gonna do it, then I'm gonna do it. So that that courage to take action when when you know that something is right um and to follow through on that, I think our role models can be so powerful in that. Um I think that that also, you know, you all are a generation that is younger than my generation. I'm a Gen Xer. And when in the you know, since the 90s, I've seen such a huge change in the identity of our leaders and even in the identity of our faculty as well. I think that when I started off in my first adjunct positions and visiting positions in the 90s, it was very much male-dominated in in almost every way in all the leadership. And even when I came to Wingate, I was just thinking about this. All of the folks that were in leadership positions when I interviewed were all men at Wingate. And only on the search committee did I have a few women, and they were very strong role model women on that search committee. But I think that leadership was very much male-dominated. And I remember in one interview, particularly for becoming an assistant professor, um, one of the male leaders that I interviewed with just came across as so patronizing, um, so misogynistic, that I was like, what am I doing? What kind of place is this? You know, and I found out, you know, just working with the search committee that that wingate wasn't like that. But one person can make such a big impact on our careers. And and I'm so glad that I persisted and I came to Wingate and I found out all of the rich diversity of people that are here. Um, but I think that that has certainly changed, especially in the last 10 years or so. We've seen many more women appointed to leadership positions. I think the first woman that was appointed to a leadership position at Wingate that really had a powerful impact on me, whether she knew it or not, was Dr. Martha Astee. She was our vice president for academic affairs a few years after I had gotten here. And she just had such a quiet power about her and a self-confidence and the way she carried herself, um, and as well as a compassion and listen to people. So she was a great role model for me earlier on in my career at Wingate. But I think that, you know, when I became a department chair, all the other department chairs in the College of Arts and Sciences were men. So I was the only woman at the table in that that early leadership experience. But luckily, I have three brothers and three sisters, and I think we just were raised that speak up, make your argument, make your piece, lead, you know, and it doesn't matter if you're uh a woman or a man, that that you've got to speak your piece and and and lead, um, if that's what the moment calls for. So I feel like my family helped me in my leadership journey.

SPEAKER_03 28:14

Ephany, if I could just jump back in. I just wanted to say that after listening to both Gary and Tara. Um, so I think because of the women that took the time to mentor me, I feel this, I feel this debt that I owe it to other women to take the time to see them. I think back to my first years as an assistant professor, and it were it was senior faculty members who were women who who saw potential in me and who encouraged me to take on specific roles. So now I think to myself, oh, I've got to take the time to do that, to pay that forward. But a couple of things helped me along the way, and and really it was seeking groups of women who could support me. One was the ACE Women's Network in Kentucky, and that connected me to women at institutions all across the state. And we talked about things like academic housework, um, about pay equity, important topics. Women don't ask, women do ask, um, things that that it helped me to interrogate. So I'd say find the groups later on. We had a book club at one of my institutions, which was not really a book club. We did nothing with books. Um, we simply got together. And that group of women from various departments, faculty, staff, a mixture of women, we could get a lot done in an hour in just helping one another. So find those networks. Um, and not just the mentors, but be a mentor would be my advice.

SPEAKER_00 29:51

But but Carrie, you you did hit on on some good points. This this change in what the uh a leadership landscape looks like, right? Uh, and I think it kind of goes across not just higher education, but in general, you're gonna see more women who are in spaces of uh making some decisions and giving a new perspective. Um, and I've had that that experience too when you talked about the interview process, not in higher education, but in industry where it was male-dominated and it was a doozy. It was truly a doozy because when you did speak up where you saw something needed to change, it was seen as an attack on his leadership abilities. And as a woman, you're telling me, you know, I'm not right. And it's like, oh my gosh, no, I'm just trying to fix the situation. I'm not trying to demean you in any way or shape or form. But yeah, those those situations kind of occur when you you speak up. Um, so you you talked about all of you kind of answered that question on this, it was called imposter syndrome, but now it's imposter phenomena, I think we're calling it, that you may not feel that you are empowered to do it, or am I enough to be in these positions? But you talked about this. If you see something that needs to be fixed, say it. As Carrie was saying, don't wait for someone else, you know, still be respectful of everyone in the room, but get it done. Get it done. You have the the skills, you have the experience. And I love the the idea of having spaces where women in higher education to um to have these conversations about, hey, I'm experiencing this. Can I, you know, can I anyone have any ideas? Can I call on you type of thing? I think that would be something to investigate if we don't already have it. But uh I like Laura when you're saying there was actual a network and in uh I think you said in Kentucky that did this. That's phenomenal, right? It gives this this confidence, right? That extra comp carry, the extra confidence um to accomplish some things. What are some specific type of committees or collaborative projects or things that you would suggest that if people are seeking some administrative roles or faculty administrative roles, what are some things that we, me being in the WE, can do?

SPEAKER_03 32:17

I mean, I would say seek out the hard work, seek out the heavy lift committees and seek out the leadership roles. Um so the minute that someone no one should assume that um a lower-ranking faculty member can't be a depart a chair of a committee. Um, no one should assume that your gender means that you should take on a specific role within that committee. So I would just say take on the heavy lift work and take on the leadership roles. Um, volunteer for anytime there's an ad hoc committee or a volunteer committee that a leader has suggested, that's going to be a chance for you to do work with that person and learn from them and also be seen and be promoted to other leadership roles.

SPEAKER_02 33:07

Yeah, I think that for faculty, though the way one way of thinking about leadership that really helped me to wrap my head around it was think about leadership as your service, your service activities that we're working on towards 10 year promotion. Um, all of those service activities are part of leadership. And so I think that just thinking about it in that way. And I think that, you know, we all are assigned to faculty decision-making committees. And and I would just say, you know, if you're in your first year or your second year and you're assigned to a committee, take it seriously. Show up, speak up, contribute, participate actively in that committee until you you know enough about what that committee's work is, and then the next year volunteer to be the chair of that committee. And just step by step, you and the more committees that you're chair of, the more you're learning about the higher education system. Um, and and actually you're building those relationships too, building that respect that you're somebody who's take charge, who gets things done, who makes meetings fun or productive. Um, and so I think that that you start building that kind of um building up your CV in terms of and keep track, and I guess that's another thing, on your CV, keep track of all the committees on which you serve and especially highlight the ones on which you're a chair. Um, I think that all of that adds up so that when an opportunity to become a department chair, an assistant dean, a program director comes open, you can show on your CV very clearly this is my leadership journey. These are the places where I've led, these are the things I've accomplished in those roles as well. Um so I think that that exactly what Laura was saying is volunteer for those committees, those committees that have have more work to be done, more things to contribute. Um, and and I think that, you know, even if you end up and you don't have a clear vision of yourself, like a vision board of like, I want to be dean one day or I want to be president of a university, you don't need to have that kind of a vision. I think that one step at a time you learn more about what is my own leadership style, what kind of leadership is really attractive to me, is aligned with my values. And then that way you can kind of it will emerge the more that you get leadership experience, the more you're gonna be able to say, I really like being a program leader. And I really like working with students and leading programming around students, or maybe you really like leading colleagues. That's a different kind of a leadership that I really want to support my colleagues as you know, and and have that kind of position, which is a dean role is more of leading colleagues. Whereas I would say, leader of a program, let's say honors program, you're you're providing leadership and direction over a program that affects a lot of students. So I I think that um that kind of vision emerges the more leadership steps that you take.

SPEAKER_01 36:24

So I would just um the only thing I would add to that is um so wherever you are right now, like just do it exceptionally well. Like do it to the best of your ability. You know, I mentioned before, you know, someone came to me and said, you know, we'd like for you to be the undergraduate department chair. We'd like for you to step in as interim, interim dean because they felt like I was capable, like I could, I could do that based on what they had seen in me before. So wherever you are, whether there's a title or not, a position or not, um, do it exceptionally well. And I know um, you know, in spaces like where we are, you know, there are plenty of opportunities like to volunteer, um, um, to chair and that kind of thing. But I also know that there are places where um there are not a lot of opportunities. You know, I have friends and colleagues at other places where they're like, there is definitely, you know, a um a hierarchy. There's definitely, you know, you've been here this long, and this person is further ahead of you to, I mean, like a whole system kind of thing that they have, that they have in place. So I would also say that um, you know, where you are identifying issues and challenges, um, problems, um, be the problem solver, like come up with solutions. So there may not be a committee for something, but there needs to be. And bam, there you are. You just created a committee, you've just created an initiative, you've just created a task force to um kind of solve a problem. I'm gonna read this quote, and I only um I searched out this quote because um one of um our faculty mentioned to me when I said um, you know, this being Dean was not on my bingo card, et cetera. And then he said, um, you know, those usually make make the best leaders. He and he kind of paraphrased from Steve Jobs. So I was like, okay, what is he talking about? Um and so the quote is, you know who the best managers are. They're the great individual contributors who never ever want to be a manager, but decide they have to be a manager because no one else is going to be able to do as good a job as them. So whatever it is that you're you know you're so passionate about, um, whatever it is that you're like, I this is this is why I'm here. Like I'm supposed to be solving these problems, I'm supposed to be making this area better. Um, find a way to do that. Like whether it's on a committee or not, whether you create a committee or a task force or not, or just in the place where where you are, um start to, you will. I mean, I think it will automatically kind of happen. You'll show yourself as a leader, especially as you kind of lean into where you are right now and you give it your all, and you're not just I'm checking a box until I can get to the next step, until I can get to the next step. Where I am, I'm gonna thrive where I am. I'm gonna give it my um all where I am. And um, I think those kind of things will just doors will start to open for you.

SPEAKER_03 39:14

Yeah. I would add that I completely agree with you, Tara, and that pursue the things you're passionate about and don't worry about who's watching or who sees it. Just do the work that you love. And what's so great about it is that eventually that will become part of your portfolio and your experience. But you did the work because you loved the work and it didn't have anything to do with seeing some goal of leadership. It will just, it will just happen if it's if it's meant to happen because people saw what you could do. Uh, and they knew that you weren't doing it because you wanted some future role.

SPEAKER_00 39:53

That was like the mic drop portion of, I think, this whole episode, all those gems right there. Okay, so a little time for self-reflection. We'll kind of wrap these things up. So if you could go back to your first day as assistant professor, what piece of advice would you give yourself about this long-term strategy journey in higher education, knowing what you know now?

SPEAKER_03 40:18

Pursue what you're passionate about, and create the space you want. Pursue the interests you're you you would like to grow in. And the learning, what you learn, is gonna become part of your experience. And don't be afraid to try something that you don't, that's where the imposter syndrome gets in your way, right? But you don't have the expertise in because you'll gain it. You'll become the expert in those areas just by doing it. And also don't be afraid to fail. I mean, it sounds very cliche, but every single failure is is going to grow those leadership muscles in a way that prepares you for the next thing.

SPEAKER_01 41:02

So, yeah, I mean, I would just piggyback on what Laura said also. Um, but I would also say that um professional development, because usually you get um most institutions, you'll have some professional development opportunities, professional development funds. Um, and using some of those opportunities, one of the things that um Annette Digby did while she was here, um, and you know, further leadership was when she was here was definitely not on my mind at that time, but she took me with her um to Las Vegas to this conference. And I mean, that was kind of the theme of the conference. Um, different sessions, different workshops related to leadership and leadership development kind of thing. And again, at that time, it still was not on my radar that I wanted to do anything more um than what I was doing as a program coordinator at that time, but taking those opportunities and then um Laura also um encouraged me to um seek out professional development opportunities with leadership. So I mean, I'm I'm a lifelong learner, I'm always open to learning. Um, similarly to what you know we've already said and what Laura said, you know, I'm not doing it because, you know, this is my goal. Like I want to be better at whatever I do. I want to be better at my craft as a teacher, you know, as a scholar. I want to be better as a leader. Um, I want to know where are my blind spots where I think I'm killing it, but um, you know, maybe not so much, or you know, what about this thing or this area over here? So I think seeking out opportunities for professional development and growth, especially when you're in spaces where people are coming from other places, from other institutions, other states, and you can get some perspectives that you normally would not have had access to.

SPEAKER_02 42:50

I would say similarly, be curious and stay curious. Keep asking questions, keep experimenting with your craft of teaching, um, just like you do with your scholarship agenda. Ask questions, do research, keep learning, um, and and get out of your office. There be curious about your colleagues, be curious about your students, go to a basketball game or show if somebody invites you for lunch, say yes, even if you brought your own lunch. You know, just say yes to opportunities. Um, I think that all of that is gonna make your you that much better at your job, and it's gonna make you happier in your job too.

SPEAKER_03 43:37

That's great. And you learn so much just by showing up, as Carrie said, by by attending even some sort of talk where you're not sure that it's an area you're interested in, you're gonna learn something by going. And then when you see someone else who's attended and you and you congratulate them on attending, then you're helping to support others and build them up. So I think that that's one really strong way to build your team too, is to is to see when they are there and and then talk about what you learned together and then you'll just keep growing. The other the last thing I'll say about that is um we've talked a lot about feedback and the importance of feedback. So getting the feedback, not just from your superiors, but from your subordinates and especially from your students. So try to get as much feedback as you can. And it's the only way that you'll ever discover those blind spots uh is by soliciting the feedback.

SPEAKER_00 44:35

I like that. We might have revisit that finding your blind spots. Kind of like that. That might be another episode. If I call on you again, it we're we're coming back to that conversation.

SPEAKER_03 44:47

It's hard and it's hard to grapple with. It is, especially the things that you think you're really doing well. And then wait a minute. Maybe you're not. And but that's where the growth and the improvement come in.

SPEAKER_00 45:00

Exactly, exactly. Well, ladies, we're kind of at the sort of end of this conversation. Um, we'll continue this thread, it'll show up in some future episodes as well, because there's a lot of gems that you dropped here that we could go down that that path. But in the interim, if the audience wants to find you, once wants to connect with you, what's the best place for them to find you? Whether it's LinkedIn or your website or where have you, whatever you're comfortable with sharing. We'll start with Carrie this time.

SPEAKER_02 45:39

Okay. Um, I'm on LinkedIn and I do check it regularly. So I think LinkedIn's a great place to find me. All right, Sarah?

SPEAKER_01 45:50

I'm on LinkedIn. I'm trying to do better about checking it more regularly, but I am on LinkedIn.

SPEAKER_03 45:56

All right, and Laura. Yeah, same for me. Okay. Um, you can find me on LinkedIn and at my new posts at Bluegrass Community and Technical College starting July 1st.

SPEAKER_00 46:07

All right. Well, ladies, thank you so much for joining this conversation. I hope that the audience captured all the gems that I did uh in this. And again, thank you for joining us for Beyond the Syllabus, Pedagogy and Purpose. Until next time.