There She Goes Writing Blake Shelton a #1 Hit Song – with Jennifer Adan

I'm SO excited for you to hear this episode 🥹💖

I think I told Jennifer “I’m so excited” in every email I sent her because I truly could not wait to spotlight her songwriting story✨

In this episode of There She Goes, I sit down with #1 platinum songwriter Jennifer Adan, co-writer of Blake Shelton’s hit song “She Wouldn’t Be Gone,” with song placements on shows like Grey’s Anatomy and Keeping Up with the Kardashians, President of the West Coast Songwriters organization, and founder of her own publishing company.

In this episode, we talk about:
•Jennifer’s journey to becoming a professional songwriter
•Writing Blake Shelton’s #1 platinum hit "She Wouldn’t Be Gone"
•Being a woman in the music industry
•Bullying and criticism early on
•The importance of community and encouragement for creatives
•The songwriting process: from inspo, to writing, to pitching
•Hearing that "Metamorphosis" placed on Grey’s Anatomy
•The realities of streaming, publishing, and songwriter compensation
•“You are always one yes away from your life changing.”

So much of There She Goes was born from lyrics that put feelings into words before I even knew how to explain them myself. That’s why getting to spotlight songwriters like Jennifer feels so special to me ✨ Songwriters are truly some of the “unsung heroes” of the music industry, and I’m so excited to continue highlighting the behind-the-scenes creatives whose words, stories, and art shape so many of our lives 💌

🎧 Songs Mentioned (all co-written by Jennifer, except "The Man")

•“She Wouldn’t Be Gone” – Blake Shelton

•“Metamorphosis” – MILCK

•“Call My Dad” – Scott Hoying

•“The Man” – Taylor Swift

🎶 Listen to all the songs mentioned in the podcast on the official There She Goes playlist*: a curated evolving playlist for your walks, journaling sessions, brave decisions, and main character moments 💖

*In this episode, Jennifer shares insight about songwriter compensation and the importance of supporting songwriters beyond streaming alone. Consider supporting local songwriters, attending live events, purchasing music/merch, and supporting organizations like West Coast Songwriters that advocate for the songwriting community.

⏱️ Timestamps

02:10 Childhood songwriting journey

04:23 Early music industry experiences in Nashville

06:38 Writing over 100 songs as a teenager

15:56 Being bullied + facing criticism

17:58 Building self-confidence as a creative

18:20 The importance of community and encouragement

20:49 How to pitch songs to artists

24:43 Writing Blake Shelton’s #1 platinum hit

39:10 Taylor Swift’s "The Man" + being a woman in the music industry

44:23 Finding out "Metamorphosis" placed on Grey’s Anatomy

52:19 Co-writing "Call My Dad" with Scott Hoying

55:31 Dream artists Jennifer would love to write for

🔗 Connect with Jennifer

Instagram

Website

Follow @thereshegoesclub for updates and community events.

Join the There She Goes Club to activate joy, fun, and wonder back into your life.

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

And she was like, hey, I'm having a little listening party for our song. And I was like, oh, great. And she goes, Yeah, it's on Grey's Anatomy. And I'm like, what?

unknown 0:08

What?

SPEAKER_00 0:08

And she told me just casually.

SPEAKER_02 0:10

Yeah. And I was like, okay.

SPEAKER_00 0:13

Welcome to the There She Goes podcast. I'm your host, Grecia Ruiz, and I can't wait to dive into everyday stories where we find the magic in the mundane. This podcast is inspired by real stories, tiny steps, and brave women. For so long, I was looking for permission in songs, stories, and other people to trust myself, follow my dreams, and take the lead. If this podcast can be that tiny spark of permission for you, then here we go. Hello, hello. Welcome to this very special episode of the There She Goes podcast. Today I have with me Jennifer Aiden, a songwriter, and I cannot wait to dive into her story. Welcome, Jennifer. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:02

So nice to meet you.

SPEAKER_00 1:04

I can't wait for everyone else to get to meet you too. So we'll start with a really quick bio and then we're gonna dive in. It's gonna get juicy. So Jen's journey started in the Bay Area at just 10 years old, secretly writing songs before she even knew it could become a career. And by 15, she had already written over a hundred and shared one with her parents for their anniversary. After moving to Nashville in 2007, she went on to co-write a two-week number one hit, She Wouldn't Be Gone, for Blake Shelton, now platinum, and with additional placements on shows like Gray's Anatomy and Keeping Up with the Kardashians. Ooh, fun. I didn't know that one. Uh and she now runs her own publishing company and mentors other songwriters. So what a treat. Thank you, Jennifer, for taking some time to get on the show and speaking to us today.

SPEAKER_03 2:04

Yeah, of course. I'm so happy to be here.

SPEAKER_00 2:06

I can't wait. So, and I'm so grateful, by the way. Shout out to Jacqueline for introducing us. So thank you. Sister. Jennifer's sister. Hopefully, future guest on the show. Yes, for sure. Yeah, I've been okay, Jennifer. And you know this. Like, I feel like every single email I have sent you has been, I'm so excited for this conversation. I'm so excited. And I don't, I'm not, I'm I'm so serious because I really feel like, and yes, this is gonna be pun intended, that songwriters are the unsung heroes of the music industry. And I'm just like, yes, like I'm so excited to spotlight you and other behind the scene creatives. Like, because honestly, and for me, like everything, you know, there's a lot of elements to music, including the you know, the melody and the um the vocals, but there's this big component, which is the lyrics, and to me, it's a huge component, it's a huge part of what's inspired the show. So I'm so excited. Okay, so let's dive in. Yes, tell us about your journey, right? I know I just kind of shared that in the bio, but like give us a little bit more, right? About what did that look like. So, how did you go and know that you even wanted to be a songwriter? Um, you know, how did you figure out the steps you needed to take to make this a reality for you?

SPEAKER_03 3:24

Yeah, so basically growing up, I always loved music. My mom takes full credit for my songwriting abilities because she says she played music um to her belly when she was pregnant with me. Um, and um I have just always been around it, always loved it. And then I just started just writing and writing lyrics. And with those lyrics, there's also melody that I heard in my head. And I was like, oh, this is kind of a cool thing I'm doing. But I didn't think anything of it. Like, and speaking to my sister, she would always say, like, um, write a song about this person, or if we were out at like some out to dinner or something, she'd be like, write a song about this person, or um, and I would just write down like on a napkin or straw paper or anything, like just ideas or something that I had. And from there, going to school and learning more about like, you know, English was my favorite subject in school my whole life. And having to read and write, it was just like the best. And from there, it just kind of grew into writing poetry and writing everything. And I consider myself just a writer to begin with. So I um so I went to school, and when I was about 10, I wrote my first song while I was sitting in a class that I was probably really bored in, uh, probably math, but I think it was history actually. And there was a guy that I thought was cute in there, and he um like I I just I don't know, I just thought he was cute. And so I wrote a song about him called Secret, and it was like, I've got a secret and nobody else knows, and because I have a crush on this person, like it was just that kind of like, you know, young vibe. And um, and so then I was like, that was my first real song, and I was probably like probably 11, something like that. But I had been writing, like obviously before that. So then kept writing, kept writing, kept writing, kept writing, and then got into high school, and everybody has journal or had a diary or journal. I had one, but it was only song lyrics, and my whole diary was just all full of song lyrics, and um so I kept writing these songs, and then one day went to my parents, it was their 25th wedding anniversary, and I sang them a song at their party, and they're like, Oh, cute, you wrote one song. And I'm like, Yeah, but look, I got a notebook and a hundred more. I'm not really sure what to do with this. And they were like, Wait, what? So um my mom, being the very um vocal, very empowering woman that she is, told everybody about it that she knew. And um, basically, um, one of her friends knew a friend that heard about a song contest that was on the radio. And it was um, so I entered the song contest and then I went and looked at like all of these other song contests. And the song contest happened to be VH1 back in the day. They had like VH1 behind the music or VH1 song contest. And so I was like, I want to enter one in every category. I want to do country and pop and rock and whatever. So I recorded a bunch of songs, did one in every category, and won every category. Oh my god! Yeah, and they were like, they sent me all these certificates, and so it started to be a thing where I would like submit and then they would send me stuff and like it would just be like I won. But um, I didn't really get anything because of that. So I just started looking for other opportunities, looking for other song contests or whatever. Found a couple, one of them being the Jeffree Steele songwriting academy or songwriting contest in Nashville. And I was like, sure. So I entered and I won and I got to go to Nashville to work with him. And I'm still I'm skipping a lot of steps, the boring stuff, you know, crying in my room, never gonna make it, you know, all of that stuff. But um, but then got to go and work with him, and he was like, What are you doing in the Bay? And I'm like, uh-uh, going to school, because at the time I was going to college. And he was like, I think you need to be in Nashville. And I had always wanted to go to LA. I had always wanted to be there and like because it was so close to home, you know, and and so I was like, okay, you know what? Forget it. I'm just I'm gonna go to Nashville. Went to Nashville, moved, uh, you know, with the support of my whole family. So my parents and my sister and now brother-in-law, they're all very, very, very supportive. Um, and got to go to Nashville. And I'm not a very shy person. So I would go to every single show, every single night, and watch people perform. And then there was this one night I went and met this one guy, and he um had been played a show and he was really good. And I was like, hey, I worked with Jeffree Steele, I now live in Nashville, would love to write sometime. So we got together. The first song we ever wrote was called She Wouldn't Be Gone. And he wanted, he wanted it for himself. So he wanted it for him to be an artist. And he was pitching it around town and and nobody wanted it. Everyone was or no uh like he well long story short, he pitched it around town, people passed on it, I was pitching it, people passed on it. But then we got to Warner, which were where Blake Shelton was signed at the time, and they said, Um, you know, basically, we don't want to sign you for an artist deal, but we want this song for Blake. And I was like, Okay, and then from there, everything happened so fast. It was like two weeks later, Blake was recording it. Two weeks later, he's putting it out as a single, two weeks later, like it was just like really, really fast. And so I had to learn about the industry really, really fast, which I already kind of knew, but I was 25 at the time or 24, 25. So it was kind of like this big, all-encompassing, like eye-opening moment where I had to just kind of be thrown into the shark tank and learn how to swim. So it was very stressful, but also very exciting. Um, and then from there, it just kind of spiraled into me writing with a bunch of people and and you know, getting all the songs I want. Like it just kind of dominoed into like the an incredible career that I love doing.

SPEAKER_00 9:32

So I'm so I'm really inspired by your career. So I'm like, wow, this is amazing. And that was very interesting because I honestly I I really don't like have this information, and I think that a lot of our audience probably doesn't either, which is exactly why you know you now have like this company where you do mentor other songwriters, because I can imagine that it took a lot, a lot of learning. What's like how does the industry work? So, like, for example, I thought it was very interesting you just mentioned that for the song She Wouldn't Be Gone. I thought I assumed that you like pitched it to Blake or that you wrote it for him, or that you know what I mean? Like I didn't realize you had written it, and then we're trying to figure out like how is this gonna go public, basically. So, see, that's already interesting.

SPEAKER_03 10:21

Yeah, so most of the time, um, as a songwriter who's not an artist, so I'm not like out there making albums and touring and all of that. So, as somebody who is just an artist or is just a songwriter, like we write for other people, and the gatekeepers of all of the artists are what's called AR. And the AR are the ones that listen to all the songs for the artist. Because AR stands for artist and repertoire, so your repertoire, your your catalog. So they will listen to the music and get them to the artist. And um, so when I am pitching songs for other artists, it's basically like I submit them to the record company for that artist. So if, like, you know, if I wanted a song for Selena Gomez, I would like go to her record label and be like, hey, I have this song for Selena. Do you think she'd like it? And then they have to say yes. And then they probably well, no, the AR person has to say yes. And then the artist has to be like, I like the song for me. And then they usually get it to the artist manager or like the artist, like personal assistant, or someone directly connected with them. Like I know Pink uses her dad for a lot of stuff that she listens to. So, and then once you get it through them, then it goes to the artist. And then they have to say yes. So it's it goes through like a bunch of different almost levels before it gets to like the artist. Most of the time. I mean, sometimes it could just be like if you have a relationship with that person, you could just submit it directly to them, but most of the time you have to get it through their their company or their record label um to get it out there. Um and in this case, the guy I wrote it with, he was just wanting, he was wanting to be an artist. So he was pitching himself to be an artist, not necessarily to pitch songs. So it was just kind of like a right place at the right time kind of kind of moment.

SPEAKER_00 12:10

Yeah, it's very different. Um, of course. So yeah, this is so this is crazy. Okay, because it's just um how did you walk us through? I know you said you skipped a few steps, so I think walk through a little bit more of the messy middle because now we we heard all of these like shiny accolades, and I'm definitely want to talk more about it. There's still more songs, it's not just the one, you know, you wouldn't be gone, but I do want to talk about it. So I guess about the messy middle of like how did it look like previous to getting that award? And and I guess knowing like if somebody hears, oh my God, I have to go pitch myself to, you know, this person, and then it has to go through another layer and another layer and another layer, like toxic. That's about the yeah, like how did you not give up and how long did it actually take you from you know winning like those initial contests at first to like really feeling like you're making momentum in your career?

SPEAKER_03 13:03

So basically the thing I tell people is what do you wake up every day and have to? What what what gets you to be like, oh my God, I'm so excited to do this today? And mine was writing. And I got up every day and I was like, I get to write. I'm gonna go to a session with another person and write a song, or I am going to work on um a book, or I am going to like it was always something mostly songwriting, I will say, that that gets me, that got me up in the morning and and going and excited. And, you know, I I think that was the drive. That was like, I have to do all these other things if I want to be successful at the thing I love, then I gotta do it because I can't just like have all of these songs sit in my computer and then never do anything with them because that's not fair to the songs, that's not fair to what I'm doing or my passion. So I have to get up and do that. So I always start with telling people, what do you have to do every day? It's just like breathing or taking a shower or brushing your teeth or whatever it is. Like that to me is along the same lines as writing. And and I love doing it. And I mean, it might not be every single day, but there's at least every single day where I think about it where I have an idea and I have a whole notes app of like writing things down. And then on those days that you need like that little extra encouragement, or you just feel like, God, I'm like, I just am not good enough. Everybody's saying no, they're passing on all my songs, nobody wants to get back to me. Um, especially being not only a woman, but an entrepreneurial woman who has her own publishing company, who runs her own, her own business. And, you know, it's it can get really daunting to have to do it on your own every single day. And you get discouraged and you like kind of get down on yourself and you're just like, this is stupid. Like, how am I supposed to get through this? But it's like you just have to listen to what you feel is right for you. Meaning, like, if you really want to be a songwriter, if you really want to do this, you are going to have to push through those hard days, and you are gonna have to push through like having an industry full of men trying to tell you what to do, or having write this beautiful song and going into a meeting, let's say, and having the guy just like on their phone not even paying attention to your song. And so all of these different things come up, and you have to be able to stand up and be like, you know what? It's cool. Whatever my my outcome is, whatever my purpose is, whatever is going to come from this is what is meant to come from it. Cause I'm putting everything into this. I always say, like, I'm doing my personal best. So I'm putting everything into this, and what's gonna come out of it is going to be what's like supposed to happen. So you know, when I was younger, it was more so of like dealing with the people that are against you. And I mean it's all basically people that are against you, essentially. You know, I was um when I was in high school, there was like this this girl, I won't say names, I can tell you later. But there was this girl that was just very bully forward and would steal my notebook, read my lyrics out loud to the class, laugh about it. Like, you know, I also had a music teacher in c in high school tell me that I wasn't going to amount to anything in music because I didn't know how to play an instrument.

SPEAKER_00 16:32

Oh my gosh, I have so like I literally goosebumps.

SPEAKER_03 16:35

Yeah, so fun fact, I don't play an instrument when I write, I just do everything in my head. Wow. Yeah. So I had to like overcome that and really say, like, you know, and when you're young and impressionable, like you're in high school, you are just gonna think like that's the end of the world. Looking back on it now, I'm like, oh my God, what losers, you know? But but back then, it's just like it meant everything that these girls were making fun of you. And you know, it meant everything that this teacher who's in music is telling you to choose a different career path. Like, yeah, you know, so it's just this like moment, there was a lot of moments of like, what am I doing? But then what happens every day? I wake up and I'm like, I have a song idea. I go sit down and I write it, or I'm at a restaurant, like like with my parents, and I have a song idea, and I need to like this is back before technology too. So then, like I said, I would write it on napkins or a straw paper. My mom still keeps a lot of those, but like, you know, it's it's just trying to find what works for you and saying this is as much as I can do with what I have. Like, I cannot do more than this at this moment. So if I need to do something else, or if I need to like present myself some other way, then it's gonna have to wait until I have more knowledge, until I have more self-esteem, until I whatever. And then you start working on those things about yourself to build your self-esteem or to build your confidence, or it's like, I don't know how to get my songs in front of the right people. So you learn, you go to workshops, you go to networking events, you go to conferences, you meet people, you form your community. And then at the end of the day, that community is what builds you up when you are having those bad days and you're like, I'm gonna give up on this, I don't want to do this. And then one of my best friends, she's in a duo called The Young Fables, and they're fantastic. And, you know, I talk to her all the time. And, you know, there are days when I'm just like, forget this, I can't do this anymore. And she's like, nah, you got this. Like, let's keep going. And she supports me. And then vice versa. Like, there are days when she gets discouraged and I help her. So finding a community and finding people that can help inspire you and lift you up when you have those hard days, that's the messy middle. And it's it's, you know, it's moments that are joyful that bring you through the moments that are not. So you can look back in it and be like, okay, that's not as bad as I thought it was. I got this. And then when the next troubled moment comes up, you're like, oh God. But then hopefully you get to a point where you like remember you're resilient and you're strong and you're powerful and you can get through it. And when you don't, you have people there that can support you and and help get you through.

SPEAKER_00 19:15

Wow. There's so much gold in there, like all the way from the conviction to I can't believe that you had your these are vulnerable, you know. I think song lyrics or just any notes, period, right? Anything that you are like um expressing is very vulnerable, especially if you're in high school where you're extra vulnerable to criticism and peer pressure and all that. So that was a lot, it did take a lot of resilience. And I'm just so glad that you didn't let that stop you because it it sounds like it was so much louder. This idea that you can't stop writing songs, and you know, that was louder than the criticism. It was louder than the voices that were telling you no.

SPEAKER_03 19:58

Yeah, and it's so interesting too, because like you take what the criticism and the anger and the hate and the the bullies or whatever, and you put that in your songs. Because songwriting is emotion. So if you're given a lot of emotion to feel, guess what? Your songs are gonna be better. So all of this That's so true. So all of this like trouble and and just like heaviness that that gets thrown at you, you turn around and you put it into a song, and all of a sudden that song is like nailed it, you know?

SPEAKER_02 20:28

Like it's just it's just like you're like, thank you. Yeah, thank you for giving me material for a song. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 20:36

It's like the Taylor Swift method, I guess, where it's just like breaks gets heartbroken, she writes a song about it. So it's kind of the same thing. Like you take all those makes money, yeah. You take all those emotions and those feelings and turn it into profit. So I think it's I think it's a great way to heal and to like it's very therapeutic to like get all that out and you know, share about it. Because obviously other people are feeling the same way in some form of like feeling, you know, unheard or lost or, you know, broken or sad or whatever it is, like a lot of people feel those, everybody feels those emotions. But the difference between me and them is I can express it in a way that helps them move forward. Whereas my way of moving forward is writing about it, their way is like listening to it and feeling in empowered.

SPEAKER_00 21:23

Listening to it, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:25

Yeah, I think that's that's why I'm so um actually, if you even listen to the very short 30, 30-second intro that I have in my podcast, I mentioned how I was looking for permission when I was in a messy middle for permission anywhere from songs to musicals to movies, pop culture, like anything. I was really looking for that like validation and permission um from these inspirational uh whether it's music or movies, right? To give me that permission to make a change in my life. So I fully agree. I think there's like there's that give and take to the writer. And to the listener, um, it's like this emotional exchange. Um, and you you do make a difference. And that's why I'm like, I'm so excited that I I get to talk to this somebody that's actually behind the scenes and doing these. So I know you obviously talk about how you write so much music. So I'm sure the inspiration's gonna come from everywhere in all day life, but still I would love to hear, yeah, what what doesn't, you know, what inspired, maybe more specifically, like you said, everywhere, but like what inspired she wouldn't be gone.

SPEAKER_03 22:29

That's a funny story. So we were literally sitting outside at a coffee shop just talking about ideas and talking about what we can write about. And we ended up just, you know, he started playing stuff on his guitar, and he was like, Look at that woman over there. She's walking across the street, and it was just like just stuff like that, just random things we saw. And then we started talking about the red flowers that were sitting next to us, and he said, Red roadside wildflower, and I was like, Yes, that is gold. So then we just kind of rolled from there, and then we talked about like, what does the song look like? What is the song like, what emotion is it about? Like, it wasn't about anything specific, really, at least for my end. It was more so just like about um, you know, having something beautiful and then not taking good care of it, and then it leaving. You know, that's kind of what the song is about, is where, you know, the well, Blake in the video was like, you know, upset about not treating her the way she needed to be treated or not loving her the way she needed to be loved. And then she left because she was like, I've had enough. And he was just like, I should have done more to keep you, I should have done better. And I think we can all relate to that in some sense of like I could have done better at this specific situation in my life or this specific time in my life, and you know, even now, like even uh people of all ages can relate to that. It's like that regret or that like remorse for something, and so I think that's where our head was at for that. Um but we wrote the song in like 45 minutes so yeah, so um I actually including the melody and everything, yeah. And then he recorded it and it was like this like for a demo, because we had to play them something, you know, from for them to hear. And it was like, okay, we recorded this demo, we recorded this whatever, and now we can um play it for people. And it was just amazing. And at first I didn't know what we had, I didn't know that we had like a hit on our hands. I thought it was more of like, it's a great song, but then when I heard the demo, I was like, This is killer, this is killer. So um, you know, and it makes a difference because when we wrote it, it was just on guitar, so you couldn't hear all those intricate details that the demo or that the recording like has with the drums and the bass and the what and whatever. So yeah, it's just definitely uh different vibe, but it so it wasn't about anything specific, not like the one I wrote with with Scott from Pentatonics. That one was very specific.

SPEAKER_00 25:18

So my gosh, how fun! And that's so the follow-up question to wrap up at least the she wouldn't be gone, because I'm like, okay, we need to get to the other songs too. I'm like, but for that one, I mean, that was your first I think that was your first like hit, like number one song that became platinum. How did that feel? Like, what did you feel when you're like I have made it? Like, this is like an award-winning song. It was the coolest effing thing ever.

SPEAKER_03 25:43

Like, like it was just, it was just like so surreal. It was so like like, I don't know, it just felt magical. I don't know how else to explain it. Like it's a very cool feeling to know that something that you've created is out in the world being listened to by millions of people, and they all like it enough to keep listening to it, and then you get awards for it. Like, that is so cool. Like, and I just kept wanting to do it over and over, but you know, it's it's a very fleeting gratification where it's like, yeah, you know, not everybody gets there. Not, you know, there's some people that maybe write songs all their life and will never get there, which and then there's some people that, you know, do it and have like millions of hits. So it just it depends on on the situation. But, you know, for me, it's just like that little taste of victory where it was just like it's getting me through to keep going.

SPEAKER_00 26:42

So that's you know, I'm I'm curious. I I know I mentioned earlier that it's like songwriters are one of the unsung heroes of the music industry. And so, question you get this award, but did do you get to participate in any of like, I don't know, like red carpet moments or any like uh spotlight moments for Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:01

So, so um I remember Blake had me come to one of his shows in Alabama when it like not long after I went number one. And he was like red carpet treatment. Like he let me and some friends on his bus. We got to go backstage, we got to hang out with him. Um, you know, he was very kind. He's such a good person, such a really kind person, and he's very genuine and just as funny as he is on TV too. Like he's fantastic. So I I was able to do that. They threw us a number one party at um the company that I'm with. And so we got to celebrate and have a number one party. Uh you know, obviously Blake was there and um my family got to all come, so that was nice. Yeah, and then when he had his um I believe it was his 20th number one song, then he threw a party and I got to also go to that and and you know, well, be with people and network and talk and hang out. And that was at the record label in Nashville. And then when he he just recently last year, I think last year, had his 30th number one party. So I got to go, yeah. So I got to go to that in Texas, and that was red carpet, and Gwen Stefani was there and got to meet her. Patrick Boys were there, um Winona Just it was so much fun. It was so much fun. That's so awesome. Yeah, so yeah, I get to go to a bunch of things like that, and you know, I got to go to the ACM Awards, which is in well, it was in Vegas. I don't know if it's still in Vegas, and then CMA awards, so all of that stuff I got to go to and participate in. So yeah, and then the biggest one was I got to go to the Grammys.

SPEAKER_00 28:54

Oh, amazing.

SPEAKER_03 28:56

Got to walk the red carpet at the Grammys, and um brought my mom. She was my she was my Grammy date, and um we were walking I think in front of Pharrell and then behind Katy Perry.

SPEAKER_02 29:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:12

Awesome.

SPEAKER_02 29:13

Wow, yeah, it was cool. It was cool.

SPEAKER_00 29:16

Yeah. That's super cool. I'm I'm really glad to hear that because I was gonna say it's like, well, you know, it's like you also need to be part participating in some of these events. But did you get to meet Blake um before any of this? Like, so like there is interaction like when he's like about to record the song, I assume. Yeah, yeah. So um, okay, good.

SPEAKER_03 29:37

So we met at one of his his number one before mine um was home. He did a remake of Michael Bubly's home. And um, so I got to go to that and meet him and talk to him. And um when I was getting my award, he was holding my hand, like in the back of the room before like I got to go up and get the award, he was holding my hand. And so I've met him a few times and he's just so sweet. I have this video of him at his party where him and I are just dancing together, and then he looks over at the camera and he's like, like it just he's just he's very sweet. So, you know, a lot of of that in of that happened and it was like really good interaction. Um, and then when I decided to be independent and not sign with uh a publishing company, he really supported me too. And he was just like, Yeah, you got to do what's best for you. That's gonna make you the most money or get you the most out there. And so it was really his support that like I was like, Yeah, I can do this. I don't need these other guys to to do it for me. Because a lot of the other companies wanted to sign me and take usually when you're signed to a publishing company, the publisher takes half of the money. So Wow, half? Wow. Because they're the ones cut. So when yeah, so when you're with a company, which goes back to the question of pitching your music, the publishers are usually the ones that pitch the songwriter's songs. So you go to a publishing company and you're like, hey, Sony Music Publishing, I'm your writer and I wrote this song and I think it would be great for Blake. And then Sony, my my assigned publisher, would take it and go play it for Warner, which is where he was at, but like Warner, the AR at Warner, and say, Hey, we got this song for Blake. So they're the ones that are pitching your stuff. So I decided not to go with the publishing company because none of them, all of them pretty much passed on my Blake song when I played it for them before Blake got it. And they passed on a lot of my other songs and they weren't really into it. And it was just kind of like this I didn't feel supported. I just feel like it was a money grab, essentially. So I was like, I'm not gonna do that. So then I started my own company. So basically, starting your own publishing company means you're in charge of pitching your own songs, you are in charge of getting yourself out there. So I made sure I did. I hustled, I made sure I was aligned with the Grammys, I was with ACMs, CMAs, everything that I needed to so that I can like be successful. And I made sure that I had um connections at all these places so that I could do it all myself. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:09

That's huge. That's I know that's a big deal because yeah, going on your own, you're like, now I'm not just songwriting, now I'm a business like owner, now I'm networking, now I'm pitching myself. Now that's it's a lot of work too. Yeah. But then it's also very gratifying when it was all you, so then everything does monetarily also go back to you. So you have your own publishing company. Do you just do that for yourself, or do you have any like, do you also um or would like sign other songwriters?

SPEAKER_03 32:41

Yeah, I've I've signed um a few other writers too. So I I pitch their stuff as well. Um and work with with their songs. Um, so yeah, I continue to do that. And if there's someone out there that I think is extremely talented that I love, I'll be like, yeah, let's do it. So um, so yeah, it's kind of twofold, but yeah. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 33:04

Wow. So um, okay, I'm just so curious. It's funny, I'm like, off like these are questions that came up in the right now. No, it's uh I guess a question that I realized, like, I don't know what what the life of a songwriter looks like in the sense of like cadence. So, for example, like I don't know if it's just like you're writing all these songs and then like you get one hit, and that one hit is gonna be, or you know, I don't know, that's what's just gonna sustain you for the year. Like, how does this work? Like, is it do you have like a target of how many songs you're able to publish in a year? You know what I mean? Like what I feel like it's very like probably volatile.

SPEAKER_03 33:36

It's yeah, it's not um as complicated as you would think. So basically, um, I can have like a hundred songs recorded in one year if I wanted, or thousand songs, a million songs. Like it doesn't matter. So the company that I work with is the company that collects your royalties. So basically, every time Blake plays the song live, or every time the song is on the radio, or every time someone downloads it, that's money. So then I need somebody to collect that. So um there's certain companies that are out there that collect all of that for you. So if I even had like a hundred songs cut in one year or recorded, that cut means recorded in one year, then there are people out there that monitor that and um will make sure that you collect what you need to collect. Um, so there's not really a um like a a what is it called? Like a cap or like a like some you can't do this many or that many. And it's it's really, you know, I write about probably 50, let's say 50 to 100 songs a year, roughly. But I don't record all of them professionally because I might not think the song is strong enough, or I might not like it very much, or maybe, you know, we need to work on it more, and we just me and the other writer like just can't find the time to get together or something. Like, there's a lot of different things that go into that. So the ones that I try to to focus on are the ones that I think have a life, have viability, have like the the opportunity to go into the right artist's hands. And so then I focus on those first. Or the ones that are like, this is done, we have a good work tape of it, and a work tape is just like recording on your phone. Let's make this a better demo, better recording, so that we can give it to um the record labels for the artist. And then that's kind of how we go about doing it. Um what kills us now is streaming. Spotify, um, you know, uh Amazon Music, all of these kind of streaming services um are not paying songwriters appropriately. And it's they're not, and there's several lawsuits against them, Spotify specifically, that is kind of like, hey, you need to do this correctly. You need to pay us what we deserve to be paid, because all these other companies never had a problem with it, but now you come into the picture and you have a problem with paying. And so now we as songwriters are grouped into the audiobook section, I believe. Like they're we're kind of getting paid what audio book people are getting paid or something. It's very complicated, and I don't want to get into it now because it's so it's like a whole topic could just be about that. But so because something that could have sustained us financially for a longer amount of time, now we are not even making half of that because of it, which which sucks. And then, you know, there's a lot of um sexism still in the industry too, especially in Nashville, around like, you know, women and writers, and you know, there's a lot of male country artists, and behind them are a bunch of male country writers, and very few times a woman writer will sneak in there, but it's it's definitely one of the reasons I moved to LA or back to LA was um, you know, I just wanted to feel more seen and more heard, and I feel like I could be that out in LA instead of in Nashville. So um Wow. It's a whole different world, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:06

So it is, yeah. That that's this is why this is why I said this is interesting because I don't think that I think we might um hear here and there a little bit about this. Like it's like I have assumptions, and I think everybody does make assumptions, but I'm like, okay, you're living it, like you're in the thick of it, um, and you're validating some assumptions and then some that I had no idea, right? Like streaming services, which and I'm sure like I'm not, yeah, like you said, we could even we don't even want to get into that, but I'm sure AI is gonna just bring a lot of challenges to the table. Already have. We could do on a whole nother episode.

SPEAKER_03 37:39

They already have, yeah, we'll do one episode on streaming, one episode on AI, and how songwriters are getting screwed through both of them. So this is this is great. You know, the one the people that like it it is about music, the ones that create the music that everybody else consumes are the ones not getting paid.

SPEAKER_00 38:00

Like, yeah, in general, and like I think the creator economy, right? It's exactly this it's creator economy, whatever that looks like. In this case, let's talk about songwriting, but any creators, right? You're just like, oh, you you're using so much of your time and energy and expertise and knowledge and creativity, and like, and people want to consume this information, but then to do that, then we need to be compensated in a way so that we can keep creating exactly, exactly, you know, so that is important. And I also really love that you're mentioning the difficulty that it is to be a woman in this industry, because I'm like, thank you for validating that too. And and it is something that I I'm not as aware of, but I know that that's a challenge in varying degrees in every industry, and so yeah, I'm actually really on top of that, really glad that you're on this show today. Um, not just sharing all these wonderful, like, you know, things about your own career journey, but you're like, and look at what I'm doing uh despite the odds against me, despite the odds stacked against me, right? Yeah. So it's so good.

SPEAKER_03 39:05

I know, and it still sucks because there's a lot of a lot of times where I just think like, um, well, I don't know if you're a Taylor Swift fan. She has a song called The Man. I am. Yes, I love that song. So it's like it would be easier sometimes if I was a dude, because then it's like I would be way farther in my career than I am now, or I would have different opportunities or whatever it is. But at the same time, it's like I like fighting the injustice a little bit because then it's like it's more satisfying when it finally like comes to you because you didn't have it easy. You had to overcome all of these things that are being thrown at you in order to get to where you need to get to. And it's still not easy. Like, I still have those days where I'm like, oh my God, really? But then, you know, it's you just kind of pick yourself up again, like we talked about, and you just go, Okay, I want to do this more than I don't.

SPEAKER_00 39:57

So, so good. You know what? This is actually the perfect segue into the next song that I really want to touch on. Because actually, to me, it's one of my favorites that I know you co-wrote, which is Metamorphosis. Okay. Um, sung by the artist Milk, right? That's how you pronounce it. Yeah. Okay. I love this one. So for you Grays Anatomy fans, this did get featured in a Grace Anatomy episode um on March 23, 2023. So go go look it up if you want to find out what episode it was. Yeah. But the reason that this song is so inspiring to me, I'll kind of talk a little bit about like my own journey is that I read the book uh or just finished reading the book, Worthy, by Jamie Kern Lima. And I don't know if you've heard that book, but part of this book on chapter 19, she talks about the analogy of the cat, you know, caterpillar turning into a butterfly. And I feel like I mean, frankly, it's like I think we've all heard the analogy of the butterfly. I mean, a caterpillar turning into a butterfly. However, two things that struck out to me that I had not heard, and you actually touch upon one of these in the song. Number one is I had no idea that the uh caterpillar completely liquefies in the cocoon. I'm like, talk about the metamorphosis like process when you're in the thick of it, in the middle of a transformation, this messy middle, the point where, yeah, before you became a number one platinum songwriter, you know, all this doubt, all these odds stacked against you. You're already a minority in this industry, as a woman in the industry, right? So talk about the liquid, like liquefying, like you literally go from a physical state to a liquid. I mean, that's a really tough period. But the other part I didn't know is that when you come out of that, so already you just went through this like really intense process. Now the caterpillar is now, you know, formed into a butterfly, but when it goes out of the cocoon, it comes out with wet wings. I didn't know that. And so reading this book and this chapter, hearing about how when a butterfly comes out with wet wings, it actually can't fly yet. So it's actually, even though it just went through this crazy metamorphosis state, um, it is actually still at its most vulnerable and it has not flown yet. So I'm like, oh, chills, because you literally in the song say, like, wet wings, they will dry, you know? Um, so I really loved it. So I want to hear a little bit more about how that process was, like co-writing it, first of all, because it's like it sounds like it was like a large group. Um, like what was that process like? How did you come up with this like wet wings like phase? Um, and then what did it feel like to find out that it was gonna play on Grey's Anatomy?

SPEAKER_03 42:33

Yeah, so my my good friend Milk, uh, her real name, her stage name is Milk, and her name is Connie. I've been working with her for a really long time and we've been friends a really long time. And she had called me one night or texted me, and she said, I have this song that I started, but we need help with it. So it was basically her idea, her concept. And I was like, Yeah, I would love to come on the song and help. And she said who the writers were on it, and one of them, well, I knew Ben from um working with Connie, um, who is also on the song. And then um, you know, the other guy that was on the song, he wrote um for Adele. I don't know if you noticed that. Wow. Yeah, so Dan Wilson. So so he had written it with um, he wrote someone like you for Adele. And um so he was working on this. Yeah. So he was working on this with Connie, and then and and then they brought it to Ben and then brought it to me. So it was kind of like a piecemeal together of puzzle pieces to form like this like perfect little song. And it was like this magical moment of it kind of coming together. And one of my favorite parts of the song is um like pain and growth like teenage bones. So it's like those growing pains. those like moments of just like struggle where everything is hurting but it's growth and it's good and it's so funny that something that hurts can be good but I mean that's kind of what the point was so yeah and then Connie's gotten a lot of things placed in um in um like especially Grey's Anatomy she's had a lot of things placed but um basically she uh told me she was like hey I'm having a little listening party for our song and I was like oh great and she goes yeah it's on Grey's Anatomy and I'm like what what and she told me just casually yeah and I was like okay so like she had this little listening party at her house and one of my friends brought a cake and then like it was just like this whole thing of it was just a really special day and the pro not the problem but the really cool thing was they played the full song on the show like in that moment they didn't play like just a part of it like like they sometimes will do they played the entire song and it was so cool and you know to have you know my my friends there and listening to the song that I did on this TV show that my parents used to watch like it was just kind of a a really really cool moment.

SPEAKER_00 45:19

So yeah that's so fun and she oh her voice is stunning so she did that song justice um it's it's just very rich um and I I remember seeing she posted I thought it was a whole so funny she posted this thing about how like it's like you know her parents wanted her to be a physician and not a musician and then she's like well guess what my music made it onto a physician's show like does that count yeah yeah um she would be a great one to have on the show she is wonderful like she's one of my favorite people to collab with and to just be around in general so yeah she's she's great.

SPEAKER_03 45:56

So it was a really special song that we had out there and you know I I just love that I was able to to share that with her.

SPEAKER_00 46:04

So it's amazing and I'm telling you like that song was it hit it's it's like the perfect candidate for the kinds of songs that I was looking for before starting the show. And frankly to this day like I I need that inspiration in my life and it oh it just it gets me it gets the chills like you did a you all did a masterpiece with that one. So thank you thank you yeah it was great it was it was fun to do yeah definitely you gotta check it out I'm telling you I'm adding of course any of the songs that I mentioned I always put in the show notes and everything because I want to make sure people get a chance to it's an immersive experience over here. Okay. Yeah absolutely so another song I mean the well at least the one that I know of the last one that I know of but it's you did mention it a little bit earlier about Call My Dad that you co-wrote with uh Scott Hoying from the Pentatonics. So that one also got me in my feels it's like perfect for Father's Day like always no matter how old I get like yeah yeah and the crazy thing is I mean no sorry go ahead no no oh I was just gonna say I mean what was it like literally like what was the inspo? What was it like to co-write it like tell me all about how that song came about.

SPEAKER_03 47:14

It's just it's very touching so yeah so um I was in the studio with Scott one day and we were writing and we were trying to figure out what to write about and I was kind of having a bad day because I just found out my dad had like all of this this like these like health problems and his heart wasn't working properly and it was just kind of an emotional day. And then Scott told me his dad was just in the hospital because of some ailment that happened. He's fine now but they it was just really scary. And so we're both talking about this we both kind of start tearing up and I was like maybe this is the song that we have to write because this feels really special. And so we talked about kind of who the first person is that you call and it's usually my dad like my car breaks down on the road call my dad to like um you know if I'm having a bad day and I want my dad to buy me a little treat or something like you call your dad like it's just he's always there and I can't get too into it because I'll get emotional but like I'm such a daddy's girl and I'm such like and I think my sister is too and my best friend is and like it's just you know dads are very special and when you have one as great as mine it's really um painful when you see them go through something that's like kind of shatters their world a little bit and so sitting and writing the song was like really cathartic for us. It was really like um magical because we were able to sit down and tap into two emotions that we were both feeling. Scott had to walk outside a couple times just sobbing like just how he was feeling and you know I um and so we decided to put it out on Father's day and this was a couple years ago and it was it was really special because my Blake song went number one on my dad's birthday. Oh wow and then now I have a song about him and um so it's just it's just really special. It's just really special and so we just started talking about all the things that we went through as a kid like telling bad jokes at dinner or my dad used to be my coach of my softball team so that that was in there too and you know just um just all of these different things and it's so great writing with Scott. He's fantastic. So yeah it's just it was a it was really good. And then now the crazy thing is him and his husband are adopting and I think they're adopting and they just um are having a girl they're adopting a daughter oh I was gonna say didn't he just become a dad? I think yeah I was yeah so yeah and then so this song kind of hits with that too. So yeah it's really cool.

SPEAKER_00 50:00

Oh how cool and this one's just it's just so relatable. So yeah and it is emotional and like oh especially if you do have like you said if you're if your own father's going through any health concerns or if just in general just like you know getting in tapping into that feeling and in into those emotions of how much your dad means to you it doesn't matter what age you are and that's true for both you know mom and dad for me at least um yeah I feel that so that was a beautiful one and did you I know you said that like that's what sparked like sparked what you wrote about but had you already come into the studio because you were going to write a song yeah or and then this was the song that came out of it? Okay.

SPEAKER_03 50:39

Usually that's the case. Like usually we'll get together whether it's Scott or who else or whoever and we'll get together and just like I don't usually prepare. Like I just kind of show up and and kind of ride the vibe whatever the vibe is if people come in and they're super happy or they just got engaged or whatever it is uh I'm not the best at writing happy songs but I can get through it you know so I'll I'll do that. But then if they come in and they're like oh my boyfriend and I fought and we just blah blah blah and I'm like excellent tell me more like it just you know so it just it just depends on the vibe and I kind of roll with it. I always say I'm a chameleon songwriter because like I can adjust and adapt to whoever's in the room whether it's an artist whether it's another songwriter whether it's you know a producer whoever it is I can get in there and um you know one of the songs I wrote this is a while back was actually with DMX's producer. Um and totally not the vibe I'm used to you know I'm used to walking in with my laptop opening it talking about our day or whatever and this was just like I walk in there's you know black lights everywhere blue lights whatever those are called iridescent lights and then he's like all right get in the booth and I'm like I don't do vocal booths whoa and I was like I don't do vocal booths and he's like you do today and I'm like okay so he put on this beat I'm down yeah he put on this beat and I went in and I was like doing some stuff and I was like okay and I walk out and they're all like smoking weed and they're all just like doing their thing not even paying attention to what I'm doing and I'm just like this is fun like here's this little like this little bubbly girl walking in like hello like let's write a song I'm ready to write a song today.

SPEAKER_02 52:20

Yeah what do you think guys like it's just and they're just all like they're like that's not the process.

SPEAKER_03 52:25

That's not the process so but so there's all different kinds of processes all different kinds of like vibes and and I can adapt to any of them.

SPEAKER_00 52:34

I like writing all kinds of music so um sad pop songs are my favorite but I I write everything so yeah from a writing standpoint yeah like from a lyrical standpoint I agree because those hit the hardest at least for me like yeah sad pop I'm like oh that's like that's what I want to listen to. Yeah that's when the lyrics are like extra important for me. And then somewhat like you know like a happier song it might not be as important as like the beat for me. You know that it's like I need to feel that it's energetic. So like I can understand that. Yeah so I'm curious if um two more things too well there's a few too many I'm curious about too many things. That's one of them is you did mention like you went to the you know like the booth like the singing booth and you did say how you um like you don't sing your own song so I am curious did you ever like want to pursue uh being an artist yourself and well you are an artist I mean like um a single language or singing any of your songs yeah it was never my thing I'm the least shy person in the world but I get very shy when I have to perform which is very strange. So yeah I just was never like really excited about doing it and even now if somebody's like hey do you want to play a a show or something I'm like it's just not where my heart is so yeah yeah that's good I mean exactly literally that's good that you know that and then you get to actually do more of what you love instead of trying to like force something.

SPEAKER_03 54:04

Right and it's kind of like it's kind of like why I don't um you know play my own instrument when I write is because I can't always play what I hear in my head or I can't always um sing what I hear in my head. So you know it's it's just about trying to find people who can or like I'm really good at producing as far as like like vocal production as well as production and just telling people what to do or being like we need more guitar here or we need to do this kind of harmony here or whatever it is. Like I can hear all of that. And actually funny enough so do you know who Diane Warren is she's a really big songwriter. Uh she wrote No I don't think so she wrote uh I don't want to miss a thing for Aerosmith she wrote Because You Loved Me for Sweet On. She wrote she wrote Unbreak My Heart for Tony Braxton. Oh my How do I How Do I Live for Leanne Rhymes? Like go look her up she is everything like she is my idol. She is my mentor she is everything to me and um she very rarely performs too and she's starting to more recently but at least from what I've seen but like she was the same way. She was like she writes everything by herself and she just kind of does her own thing and she's fantastic and that's what I was like I want to be like that when I grow up like I want to strive to be that cool and have that many songs and awards when I'm like I think she's in her 60s maybe like like I can do it. I love it.

SPEAKER_02 55:36

So I just have to keep going so it's just it's just a lot but no I Yeah of course yeah so have you had a chance to meet her several times.

SPEAKER_03 55:51

And um oh my God I'll tell you a funny story it's really quick but um I met her one time in New York and she was talking she was being interviewed and at the end they're like does anybody have any questions for her and so I raised my hand and they brought me the mic and I was like it's not really a question but I just wanted to thank you for being so inspiring and and you know writing the kinds of music that I you know strive or I strive to be like whatever I said and I just started bawling just in front of the like hundreds of people in the room just bawling and I'm like and I'm sorry I'm crying and then I like just kidding back and then afterwards um I went up to her and I was able to talk to her and stuff and she was like really really nice um and then the next time I met her I was like remember me I was the girl that cried and she was like I remember so hey you made yourself memorable I did I did so um yeah now she remembers who I am which is weird on a first name basis with her and it's like every time I see her I'm like so I love that yeah so that's like a so I I know they say don't meet your heroes but that was a good example of like hey you met your hero and it she is who she says she is.

SPEAKER_00 57:05

Yes and then my other idol is Mariah Carey and I don't know if I want to meet her but Diane Warren is at least is at least great well actually that reminds me that was my last question for you is actually is if there is an is there an artist that you still dream of writing a song for that you have not been able to write a song for yet I mean Mariah Carey but she writes a lot of her own stuff and she I know she collabs and stuff but Mariah Carey Kelly Clarkson would be one I love her you know the timeless artist like Celine Dion would be one you know I just but Kelly Clarkson Cena Guilera would be one yeah she's got all kinds of range yeah um but yeah I mean I just love female vocals too especially in pop music and so writing a good sad song if I can get like a real one of my favorite sad songs recorded by a big artist that would be LifeMade. But yeah love I mean you already have a lot of really good artists in your repertoire but you know what you still got some ways to go like you said so you never know. We'll be here in a few years and you can tell me all about some of the new artists you've been writing songs for.

SPEAKER_03 58:21

Exactly exactly yeah I know I'm like we don't have enough time now for all the ones I've worked with but like yeah it's it's been a fun journey really fun. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 58:31

Well then what would you love for listeners to take away from this conversation and from your journey and everything?

SPEAKER_03 58:37

Um so basically really quick and we don't have to get too into it but like I run a nonprofit called West Coast Songwriters and it's been around for so long and it was how I got my start in the industry. So I got my start from being a member when I was like 17 years old and um you know I learned about the business, learned about songwriting, honed in on my craft, did all of that through them and now it's been a full circle moment because now I'm running the whole thing. And so just about supporting each other. And that's what West Coast Songwriters is is about supporting each other in the industry, creating community, um, you know, really having that empowerment that you need to keep going with life. And um so I encourage people to support your local songwriter. And you know just never give up on yourself because you're always like one yes away from your life changing and you're always one moment away from like everything just being really different. And you know giving up is not an option but if you need to take a break if you need to take a rest if you need to reshift your focus reshift it but then come back to what drives you and full circle again do what gets you up in the morning. Like keep doing what you have to do every day. If you are doing something that brings you joy and that brings you love then keep keep doing that. Um and then just go to more live shows support local shows um you know just really help those support those that that need a little bit of extra love right now. So especially in with the state of our our country but also the state of the world right now just do everything that you can to support each other and to love each other.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:26

Thank you. And I really wanted to validate just the community aspect of things especially all the moments you mentioned like you're you know questioning things you have you know it it just there's nothing like being around other people who are going through a similar situation and and something very in your case with this uh nonprofit organization very specifically if you're a songwriter like only another songwriter is gonna understand your journey you know right so I think that that's really awesome that there there are ways to plug in so that you do feel support you do feel that you can reach out to someone and be like I'm struggling right now or should I just give up and someone that can really hold your hand there. So yeah I think that's awesome. Yeah yeah validate that so how can people connect with you because I'm sure people are gonna want to connect with you after listening to this amazing episode.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:13

Yeah so yeah so I'm on all the socials um at JenniferAiden13.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:19

So Jennifer Aiden A D A N 13 and then also my website is just jenniferen.com so a-d-a-n everybody says a d e n but it's a d a n so that's uh good clarification yeah thank you so much Jennifer this was awesome and obviously all of this information will be in the show notes go follow Jennifer go check her out but also check out all of those songs that we mentioned um yeah and enjoy thanks so much again for giving us your time and I hope that see y'all next time thank you for listening to this week's episode of the There She Goes podcast if this episode resonated with you here's how you can be part of it subscribe share it with a friend or leave a review your reviews don't just mean a lot they help the community grow and reach other women who could be served by these conversations. I created this podcast to connect with women on this journey so please reach out. I'm a real person. DM me on Instagram at there she goes club or reply to my emails. I can't wait to celebrate your own There She goes moments. Until next Thursday let's see where she goes next.