Beyond the Spire
Welcome to Beyond the Spire, a podcast of the Save Our Sacred Songs project at the Catholic Shrine of St Walburge in Preston, supported by the National Lottery.
In each episode, we go beyond what you see from the street, we explore the story and the sound of Gregorian chant, the Church's sacred song, so that this treasure of faith and culture is not just preserved, but lived and loved again.
Beyond the Spire
E16 • History of music: The Decline of Gregorian Chant
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This episode studies the gradual eclipse of Gregorian chant in the later history of Western church music. As musical culture changed, and as Renaissance and later styles introduced different ideals of beauty, authorship, and expression, chant no longer occupied the same central place in practice. The episode does not present this decline as a simple catastrophe with one cause, but as the result of another mind and another world slowly taking shape. It is a sober meditation on what happens when the Church’s own song loses its native environment: chant declines when the world that naturally understands it declines as well.
Content
- Gregorian chant declined gradually as evolving musical tastes favoured measured, authored, and expressive styles.
- Deeper cultural and spiritual shifts were at work, because chant depends on a liturgical mentality that values prayer, restraint, and common inheritance over display.
- Once living oral transmission weakens, even books and formal preservation cannot fully prevent decline, since the tradition risks surviving only on paper.
- The loss of chant is linked to the loss of a certain ecclesial instinct, where music is no longer judged primarily by its liturgical fitness and theological clarity.
- By discussing an “another mind” and “another world”, the episode highlights how sacred music connects to the civilisation and spiritual outlook that uphold it.
- This diagnosis sets up the later restoration by showing that recovery would require not just new editions, but a renewed understanding of liturgy, Romanitas, and prayer.
Guests
- Canon Amaury Montjean
- Canon Gwenaël Cristofoli
Sponsors
- National Lottery Heritage Fund:
- Global Sound Movement
- University of Lancashire
- Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest
External Links
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Welcome to Beyond the Spire, a podcast of the Save Our Sacredons project here in Preston at the Catholic Shrine of St. Wahburg, supported by the National Lottery. In each episode, we go beyond what you see from the street. We explore the story and the sound of Gregory and chant the Church's own voice so that this treasure of faith and culture is not just preserved, but lived and loved again. I am Canon Bennens. Whether you are a musician, a member of a parish choir, or simply someone curious about the Catholic faith heritage, you came to the right place. Let's begin. In today's episode, we'll talk about the decline of Gregory and Chant and the Renaissance. We are delighted to guest Canon Christopher Lee again. To welcome Canon.
SPEAKER_00Hello, Canon. It's a pleasure to be there again.
SPEAKER_01Thank you very much for coming. And uh for the first time we have Canon Monjean here joining us from New Brighton. Indeed. Hello, Canon.
SPEAKER_02I'm delighted to be here. Wonderful. Could you please introduce yourself a bit for our listeners? Well, I'm Canon Amaury Monjon, obviously, I'm French. I'm a member of the Institute of Christ looking sovereign priests, and I've been uh serving in uh our church of St. Peter and Paul in St. Philomena in New Brighton on the world for nearly 14 years, and uh have been uh involved, um, say the less at the the foundation of the of the mission at uh St. Warburg's under the care of uh the then Bishop Michael Campbell. And uh and I'm I'm more than happy to uh support this uh series of uh podcasts on the Gregorian church, which is obviously uh one of the main concerns and the heart of the institute as the as we uh live the life of canons. So thank you.
SPEAKER_01Thank you very much. Um I have a question. We are talking about Gregorian chant, but there are some very nice music, uh liturgical music, sacred music outside of the Gregorian chance. So how um Gregorian chant is it related to sacred music? Is it better to sing Gregorian chant or uh have sacred music?
SPEAKER_02Well, I would probably say that um Gregorian chant is in the scope of the sacred music, but it's a bit but it's different in the sense that uh the Gregorian chant is normative. So when the uh the church has uh developed and founded and developed the the the Gregorian chant, it came with the the liturgical development and the and the normation of the liturgy. And probably, and we will probably have a little look at this in the next uh uh episode, uh, but certainly the the the normative touch of the liturgy as we can see it in the pontifical mass goes with the Gregorian chance. The Gregorian chance is not just sacred, it's normative for the church.
SPEAKER_00And it's something also mentioned in the constitution of the Second Concile of the Vatican, in um absolutely on the constitution about holy liturgy, and it says very clearly that the Gregorian chant is still the normative prayer song of the church.
SPEAKER_02Yes. So it's a norm in a sense that from both sides, from uh for the the chant, for the execution of the of the of the sacred uh chant in church, like the office or the mass or the prayers in general, but also from outside, it is norm, it it is normative for uh the conduction of the liturgy. So it gives a kind of a frame to the liturgy, so it's not just a norm for the execution of the chant, but it's also a norm for a norm for the liturgical prior.
SPEAKER_01So that's very interesting because as we hear that we can say that the sacred um compositions outside of the Gregorian chance, so modern music may in a sense has to um keep the same spirit than Gregorian as a normal, and and that's the whole point of Renaissance. So when the music became composed and written and transmitted, um everything was uh completely new, and the church had to uh give a structure for the composer to maybe avoid um some abuses in a way, no?
SPEAKER_00I understand what you mean. Losing the sacred aspect of the music. Exactly.
SPEAKER_01So that's interesting because Gregory chant is used as a norm not just for this particular kind of chant, but for every sacred song the church uh wants to use in her whole liturgy. But at one point, at this um Renaissance movement, well, mindset has changed. Can you tell us about that?
SPEAKER_00Yes. The liturgy of the church is uh a living liturgy, and through the centuries the liturgy uh is touched by the life of the society. During Renaissance, we have a rupture with the medieval time, because medieval time was a society centered um before and around the question of the worship and God, when Renaissance is marked with a new interest for paganism, antiquity, and especially humanism. So man will be now the center of the attention of the society. And uh in the Gregon Chunt, uh you will have a lot of eruption, even of pagan ideas into the chunt. We still have only one in a sequence of the Requiem Mass when we mentioned Tested David Cum Sibila with the Sibil, because all the other were purged by St. Peter the Fifth. But you can see that this eruption of the humanism of the Renaissance uh was quite important uh on the on the liturgy.
SPEAKER_02Uh 100% agree with what Carlon Christophle said. Uh it's the uh is the surge of the individualism in the Renaissance period which is most uh uh striking. And the uh Gregorian chant had been uh being the opposite, because in the technique of the Gregorian chant, there is uh it's a it's a kind of a medication or the antidote to individualism, because uh there's only one voice and no breath, there's no mark of breathing in the Gregorian chant as opposed to modern music, as opposed to the Renaissance music as a sign of eternity, it never stops, you're not supposed to breathe. Well, you do breathe anyway, but not in the same time. In the same time, you have to be careful, yeah. And this is kind of that sense of common good, God-centered, sacred, but also it's it represents a kind of philosophy and a rupture, and also with the Protestant uh input is very important at that instance because it's not only uh a faith revolution, but also the Gregorian chant revolution. For instance, a small example, the Gregorian chant is absent from the Protestant liturgies, except and the modality has been dropped completely, except one.
SPEAKER_01Yes, but if we look at the whole compositions that we have from that point, Renaissance point humanism, and um this um composition centered on the audience more than God, yes, uh, we can see that they could also drive the souls to God. Yes.
SPEAKER_02Yes, it's interesting but that we make this kind of opposition on confrontation between the uh Renaissance music and Gregor and chant music. I think the the Renaissance has lost the sense of of freedom and gratuity because we sing for God and Renaissance sings for men. Interesting. But in the meantime, Gregoran chan sings for God, but also sings for Christ, who is God, don't get it wrong, but it sings to the incarnation of Christ as well. So the Gregonsian is an incarnation as well, as the the the eternal son was made ink and was made flesh. The gregantian has to be speak to the flesh, if I may say, so to the senses, so it's not totally in confrontation with the Renaissance music, so uh it sort of uh uh it sort of uh pulled the strings of the human soul as well as the modern music, but this is the deep meeting meaning of modality.
SPEAKER_01Can we say that Gregor Enchant speaks to the soul and well modern music from Renaissance speaks to the feelings?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it could lead the people to the faith, of course. I'm not saying that the music from uh Bach or whatever kind of even organ music can leave to lead, sorry, to the to the faith, to an act of faith and find out God. But it's it's it doesn't embrace the same scope of uh humanity. So it's part of the humanity is touched by the modern music, but the Gergranson embrace the whole thing. So I wouldn't say there's a confrontation, but there is uh uh there is a lack of something in the modern music, so they've dropped something.
SPEAKER_00Also quickly after the reformation, we will lose a bit of transcendence in the sacred music because of the reformation and its influence, it it will start to be sung in the national languages and not in Latin anymore. Latin was helping to keep this transcendence, uh having an exclusive language for God, but because of the German, especially German influence and later English as well, but it will certainly um bring something totally new in the heart of the liturgy.
SPEAKER_01So it's a kind of a self-looking music. We are speaking with our own words instead of the church words.
SPEAKER_00Yes, Canon just mentioned uh Johann Sebastian Bach, uh, who is a wonderful master. He was a Lutheran. Uh, I believe personally his music is very very Catholic because it's quite liturgical, in fact. But you can see exactly as Canon said, a Bach is uh it's certainly a prayer, but it does touch first the heart of the festival. And there are, for example, in a passion like St. Matthew, you are part of this dialogue between the three choirs, and uh it's taking you. It's uh it's a full, I if I may say, spectacle, it's not a theater, but there is it's like an oratorio at the end.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, in this kind of music, I would say that in the what you we call the music from the Renaissance music, although particularly in Bach, but it could be others like Buxterhood or Bachel Bell, uh, it it it it it touches your it it sort of triggers your feelings and emotions to your faith, but the Gregorian chant triggers your faith and goes into your feeling. So the movement of the incarnation is more uh uh visible as a descending rather than the modern music and this uh and melodies try to pull you from the the feelings to the faith. So it's it's the other movement.
SPEAKER_01And uh maybe to to sum up, we have the difference between the uh liturgical purpose and the just emotional purpose. So here Greg Antichan serves the liturgical purpose, which is obviously uh a faith purpose. And even if it can touch your heart, it's not designed for that, firstly. And that's I believe what um was the the wrong thing with the new compositions before um Pope Peter the Fifth came uh in the Conceile of Trent, um, and asked Palestrina to reorder or to give the church something that is also liturgical that we can understand with the not only the the feelings but also the ear, understand the words, uh not melting all together. And yeah, so have you something to add about that?
SPEAKER_02Well, I've got something to say about I've got I should I shouldn't be too presumptuous, but the notion of silence, I know you've you've touched that in one of your episodes, but the this is one of the also one of the differences between these two kinds of musics, uh well, between the chant and the music, is that the music, uh in the modern music, the a silence is a pause to be able to breathe and to be able to continue your own performance. Gregor and chant, when the when the chant stops, so the the liturgy has something to say, so it's more sacred. So it's not a pause, it's a sacred gap, and we are, as we know, the the most solemn and important moments of the liturgical action are silent. So, in a way, the Gregorian chant, the silences of the Gregorian chant, they sort of open the window of uh solemnity and the window of uh of the uh of of the liturgic to the liturgical action, like in the as we do for the ordination of priests or the consecration and etc. So I would say the music tries to intends to lead us to uh uh to the grandeur, but the the Gregor enchant lead us to another world, which is not just not just just grand, but uh transcendent. So this is the difference between grandeur and transcendence.
SPEAKER_01And you see that in the modern music we also need to add instrument, to add multiple voices, to add uh little uh technical aspects that are not required in Gregor and Shunt, which is completely simple, even it's kind of difficult to master. But um so, yes, instruments too, the organ takes a huge place uh over the years. And yes, we talked about back, but Buxterhude had a lot of compositions, and he's uh a master in the in this kind of music. Yeah, because he knows Gregor Enchant. He's always there at the back. So, yes, that's interesting because finally Gregor Enchant has turned into an inspiration. Of course.
SPEAKER_00I would like to add, Canon, if you permit me, um as an experience, I would say a pastoral experience here in St. Wahlberg. Um, sometime for uh funerals when we sing the Requiem Mass in Gregorian, and we have some people in attendance who are not used to our liturgy or we are very, you know, uh, they don't they don't know the Catholic faith at all. But after the ceremony, they are coming to us and saying, this music brought a lot of peace. A lot of peace. And we were, of course, we are devastated by the loss of someone, or brah, but this music actually helped us also in our emotions to deal with um the mourning and the the grief of losing someone, for example, in this particular case.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And it's a sort of pastoral aspect of things, is uh you can see the it's it's a source of many conversions. And in the young generation, it's it's extraordinary because they perceive that it's it's not just another kind of musical chant, but also they we can we can sort of explain, or it's self-explanatory, that the notion of participation comes naturally there. So they don't want to sing with you because they know this is not the place. In a more modern music, they would try to sing or join with you.
SPEAKER_01And I I would add something interesting, yes, because modern music usually needs very capable singers. Yeah, skilled, yeah. And well, when you try to sing modern music, if you're not skilled, it could be very dangerous to try to interpret it. But for Gregory Anchant, it doesn't require extreme skills. You just need to know how it works, and it works differently from modern music, but it's not um you're not supposed to be a solo singer and very vocal, um, trained um yeah, singer. You're a man of faith, you are blending your voice into uh the um schola, and if you're skilled, yes, you you could do some um steps for uh forward and maybe be in um in the the counters and sing the verses and and so yes the participation here has different meaning. So we we we are unify unified to the scholar if we can't just know how to sing the green chant.
SPEAKER_02Well, you unite yourself to the prayer of the church through the and the and the and the people and the congregation as Canon rightly mentioned, vibrate to the Gregorian chant, to the modality, to the meaning. Even if you are not skilled, you can still vibrate. You participate in that, you're not supposed to play or sing anything.
SPEAKER_01But there are answers too. You have Dominus Fobiscum, you sing at Conspire to Door.
SPEAKER_02Yes, I know. You don't need to sing. That's my point. You don't need to sing, you need to absorb so that you can be yourself absorbed into someone else's mind, that is the church and and and the Lord Himself. That's the point. That's the point.
SPEAKER_01Yes, everything is structured. Yeah. So you you can't just say, okay, I will sing the celebrant ver the celebrant part or the scholar part. It's not like that. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02I I I talked to my uh to one uh a new member of our choir, a world known professional soloist, and she we talked about the about Gregor and Chant uh not a few weeks ago, and she said, I fell in love with something so different from my job, but I literally fell in love and I want to learn. And she said something very interesting. She said, You need to know the technique of the Gregorian chant before you sing it. She was very adamant to that point, and then she said, because she's heard our sisters, and she was amazed the first time in at New Brighton. She was amazed, and she said, but here you've got uh you need your voice needs to be under under under constant control in Gregor and Chant. You can't let it go. Yeah, absolutely. As in the modern music. It's very it's most interesting to hear that from a soloist who performs at the the the the philharmonic, for instance. She's done that a few times. She's met the soprano. Yes, but she said we have to let it go in modern music. But in Gregor and Chant, it's not because it's subtle that it's not cared and under control. It's she said, You keep your voices under constant control. And I said, Yes. And she said it particularly in the way you sing, the finer notes. She said it. I didn't say anything because she attended. Office and she said this is what I've noticed. And I said, This is not just because you want just to turn the volume a little bit down, but she says it's because you are in control, so it's not yourself, it's about something else.
SPEAKER_01Yes, it's a it's a prayer, so it's also humble and and and very careful. You you you you're not uh displaying your own skills, even if you are very capable.
SPEAKER_02Um well, usually in life is not a good idea anyway.
SPEAKER_01Well, if if you if you sing as a soloist, I know I understand. You know what you mean. You can't mask yourself.
SPEAKER_02Not just in chant, but in general. It's good to remain at the background.
SPEAKER_01So, yes, and Greg Gunchon gave give us gives us the uh this opportunity to just to be at our place, a humble place.
SPEAKER_02I would say it's a it's a chant of conversion, whether the renaissance and modern music is a chant of emotion.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Would you add something, Canon, to that?
SPEAKER_00I think you covers the essential canon, so I I won't add anything now. If you let me go, I would talk for two hours.
SPEAKER_01Yes, but we will have you on the next episode. We I I'm I'm already um looking looking forward to that. Okay. But well uh as a a conclusion, I would say that polyphony is also something we haven't talked about because we talked about modern music. But in fact, Grego Enchant is monophony, and the compositions following the Renaissance and humanism developments add some richness in a position of the simplicity of Gregoyan Shant, maybe in Grego Enchant. If you train even if you're not a good singer, you can you can still have your part in it. Am I wrong? Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02But also when you say the Grego Enchant is a monophony, I agree, and somehow I would probably moderate that expression a little if you don't mind. Because when you add the organ, it doesn't become it's no longer a monophony, both melt in the one voice emission at the end. Yeah, so that's the that's the idea. And this is why we you would probably have this debate uh with your episode on organ accompaniment because this is core, and this is all the discussion throughout of from the the the reform of the Gregorian chant from from Soleim, except that's been a long-standing discussion. What is the level of of polyphony we can add into the Gregor the organ accompaniment? In as you say, in polyphony, modern polyphony, the the uh the violin or the cello doesn't support the singer.
SPEAKER_01No, it's a dialogue or a contest, maybe.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's an implementation, so they add up and form an harmony, which is very nice, but they add up, but they never melt. The organ and the voice melt, that's why you need to choose the right stops, you need to write the right uh chord you're going to play, more or less, and at the end, and this is sort of at the end, Gregorian ends into a monophony at the emistiche, and at the end of each verse, your voice melts into the voice of the organ. So it's only one voice edition. That's what I'm saying. This is not the goal of polyphony.
SPEAKER_01This is very interesting. Yes, I hope we will be able to welcome Christian Spence uh in our future episode for organ accompaniment, but we still have one more episode to talk uh about the reform of Solemn and that's a huge part. Thank you, thank you, Kennan. Thank you very much.