Wild Takes
A Wild Origins Australia Podcast.
Wild Takes brings you raw, unfiltered conversations with the people working at the front line of conservation and hunting. From scientists and traditional knowledge holders to adventurers and land managers — we explore the big ideas, tough decisions, and wild stories shaping the future of our natural world.
Hosted in partnership with Wild Origins Australia & the Origins Foundation.
Wild Takes
Culture Is For Everyone
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Marrbuk is an Aboriginal hunter and cultural experiences coordinator. On the show we talk about hunting in ways old and new. How the old fellas did it and how modern tools and techniques can fit in with the oldest continuing cultures on the planet.
Where are we gonna be going? Where exactly are we gonna be going? Is it gonna be fallow deer?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's what I've got down here. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00How far away are we gonna be?
SPEAKER_02Uh well I I time it by a song.
SPEAKER_00Time it by a song?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. How does that work? Well I put a song on and by the time I'm there it's coming to an end.
SPEAKER_00See, I thought you were gonna tell me it was some song lines then to get you there.
SPEAKER_02No, no. Just I play a song on the way there and before it's ended very so you are in fact Aboriginal, right? Yes, yes. I'm a beer pie man with gamilleroid connections to Tingaway. That's where my uh my auntie, the brown name comes from. Um from up Tinga. And then I've got my Birapie mob in Foster Tunkurry. That's the she's my great-grandmother. She was a um like a um magic woman type thing. Oh indeed, how what do you mean by a magic woman? Like um like a clever man, like a clever woman. So when people had sickness or something, like a doctor, a bush doctor type thing.
SPEAKER_00Like a bush medicine person.
SPEAKER_02Oh wow, cool. Yeah, and um yeah, she's uh in the cemetery now and still to this day no one wants to be buried next door. Wow. Yeah, it's a long time of she's been gone for a while, but still people are going into the and the old story. You know, Noah wants to be buried next to her because she's a magic woman, I don't know. That's one of the side of the stories. There's more stories to come in my family that I haven't quite gone on to. Yeah, so I don't know. But that's my connections to those two places and I obviously go there to hunt and go hang out with my family and stuff and just try and rekindle the stuff that my dad never got to share with me.
SPEAKER_00Right. We are actually uh coming in recorded from Mudgy at the moment. Yep. We are up on up in Mudgy in uh northern, not far northern, but northern, mid New South Wales. Yeah. Yeah, let's call it mid. So Shaza, you are an avid hunter.
SPEAKER_02Well, I've I I try to be.
SPEAKER_00You're modest as well. You're an avid hunter, yeah. You get after it.
SPEAKER_02Oh, yeah, for sure.
SPEAKER_00And your I mean, I wouldn't say you're preferred, but your main tool of choice is the compound bow, is that correct?
SPEAKER_02Yes, yes. I like me compound bow, and it's quiet, it's pretty much like the spear, it's nice and quiet, so try and take them both out when I go.
SPEAKER_00Nice. Do you know many other Aboriginal guys that hunt with a compound bow?
SPEAKER_02Um I've only just m recently met uh brother Ryan, he's one of the local boys out here, and he's a milleroy man, but yeah, he's only just started to come out of his roots and realised that being a black fella with a bow is pretty deadly. So he's embraced it as well. Shout out to Ryan. Um, but yeah, that's the bloke I go hunting with. So and I don't know, we both adapt the culture side to it, so tracking. I feel a bit relaxed, so if I'm I'm having a bit of a down day, I know that we're gonna get something because he tracks the same as I do. So it's pretty pretty comfortable knowing that your mate can get the job done just as good as you. Yeah, nice. Yeah. So um what bow is it you're using? I use a Hoyt Axis. I don't know if that's how you say it. Ax Axias or Axis, yeah. Um, yeah, I've had that for about three years, four years now. What are you what weight are you pulling? Uh 71. 71, nice, yeah. I'm pretty sure it's 71, but it's probably a bit less. But last time I checked it it was 71, and that was at the shop when I got the peep site put in.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, nice. Yeah, yeah, awesome. I don't know um many other guys. I know a couple of other I know of a couple of other Aboriginal guys that use a bow. And it's interesting because Aboriginal people never had the bow and arrow, or at least they never took it on.
SPEAKER_02No. Oh well. No, not really, man. I've never I haven't I've met one other person up in Pomperall, uh Lloyd, his brother. He he hunts with a bow. Um one person I'd love to go hunting with. Um, but yeah, I really do not know anyone else that shoots with a bow.
SPEAKER_00They're uh they're big pig doggers up in pomp, aren't they?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, he's a pig dogger himself.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, they love it. I've got I've uh done a bit of chasing with them up there. Yep. It's uh it's good fun, and it's deep country. I mean they're thick, thick with pigs up that way.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, I don't know, when you hunt with a bow and you got that knowledge of the land and you I don't know, I I kind of feel like I'm cheating. Because that it really is. Like I have this thing with Brother Ryan that we have a percentage of hunting because we hunt for food, we hunt a bit harder for the than the trophy person who hunts.
SPEAKER_00Sure.
SPEAKER_02So we we pretty much won't come home until we get something that we can dipby up and take something from it.
SPEAKER_00And that's just hunting, or you get you fishing as well a lot?
SPEAKER_02Well, I fish a lot because my son's just got me back into it.
SPEAKER_00So you were telling me about your connection to country and how sorry, there's a little bit of a connection issue there, but we're back online, we're back going. Um, connection to culture, your relationship with your father, and he did he teach you uh the foundations of your bush knowledge?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. It wasn't pretty much like a teaching thing, it was more of a every school holidays, the six weeks' holidays. He would take me and my sisters, and then my sisters decided to not come, and then it was just me and him. And I was about, you know, nine, ten by then. And yeah, so we just started going away and he just started doing things, and I didn't realise what he was doing because I just thought it was just the way you do things, you know, going out fishing, uh doing everything. Bush school. Yeah, and so I was just I didn't really acknowledge what was happening until I started going to school and going out of getting older, going out with mates, going into the bush and just making things look really easy because I can get get things or catch things or dive for things, and I was young, so then um yeah, high school teenagers, my dad got a bit older, kinda fell off the scene, girls, drugs, alcohol, all that type of stuff. And then as I got older, yeah, I started to appreciate more what dad was doing and realizing and then just kinda adapted it to my life a bit more. And then um once he passed, and I got my I got a job as a surveyor. Used to survey land for a land council and stuff, and just the tracking knowledge and just knowledge reading about the region land made me realise what I was actually taught. Yeah, right. And then it just felt like it just felt a lot normal to talk about it with other people, but then seeing the reaction that the other people have like, how do you know that? And then putting two to two together and dad thinking back to what he was telling me and showing me how he was showing me and why it stuck, and then realizing through high school and everything that what the dreaming is, the culture, all of that, that I was actually just living it. I wasn't a dancer, I wasn't a performer or a storyteller, I was a hunter. Right. So if we went into the bush, we had a process of starting, and I just thought it was normal. So I just practiced the same thing that I was taught by my dad, and then he started showing me the artifacts and making those from selecting them to having something to kill an animal with.
SPEAKER_00You use a spear, how do you get on how are you getting on with that?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Um Yeah, there's family bloodline traditions that we do, and as soon as you're sixteen, you you gotta go through that stage of going to do things for yourself and is there anything you can talk about? What is the uh Oh not really?
SPEAKER_00No, can't talk about it.
SPEAKER_02Um I'd love to, but I don't know. I've got family that would probably Yeah, fair enough. Growl me for saying things, but um How are you going about making your spears?
SPEAKER_00Making them traditionally or uh using modern materials?
SPEAKER_02Uh my fishing ones I use modern just because it's fast and I go for 'em a lot. So I like to use barbs, but my root spears I like to use the proper stuff or the spade end made out of wood.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. So sorry, with your fishing spears, you're talking about metal barbs. Yeah. And what are you making them out of and how many barbs are you using?
SPEAKER_02Well, my boys, they use three. I put four in mine and sometimes five. I'm using just using Rio or um just stuff from oven trays, you know, the the shelving. Oh yeah. Yeah, that's good stainless steel barbs.
SPEAKER_00When I was on country tent pegs, yeah. No, and you never like even if you try to keep some, you'd always end up with the biggest.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, they all go missing, but you gotta heat them up too, throw them in the fires because some of them the steel's not the best. Oh bit of a heat treat. Yeah, they bend a bit. So there's some some steel you gotta kind of know what's gonna bend or chip away.
SPEAKER_00And what about shafts? What are you um as fit are fixing them to?
SPEAKER_02Well, these days I just use bamboo because it helps float, and not every country that I go to to hunt has something that I can fix it, so bamboo is pretty easy to fix if it snaps somewhere you can mend it up with some tape. So they're easier to mend on the spot, but majority of the time I like to use my river wheat reeds, some of the the the proper stuff. Um the fishing ones, I tend to go through them a lot, so I don't really like to spend too much time on it.
SPEAKER_00Is that breaking them or them going out to sea?
SPEAKER_02No, breaking them or spearing them and they're they're hitting a log underneath and they're just not coming up.
SPEAKER_00Right. What about um affixing the barbs into the shafts?
SPEAKER_02Uh the well there's certain there's certain techniques that you can do. Um I've just got one way that dad showed me, and it's similar to uh Queensland way. Um but we we tend to put some stuff in the end of the shaft for the metal barbs to hit before it hits the timber, and that's what that's what makes ours a bit different.
SPEAKER_00Is that stopping it from splitting? Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and we tend to fill fill fill it up a bit more with like some liquid nails or something, just to make it it so the barb each barb don't twist. Sometimes they twist and they get a bit loose and they'll come out.
SPEAKER_00Do you use uh any bush glues? Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02I use that for my roux spears. I use all the sinewed and the resin and uh the the the spade tip.
SPEAKER_00So uh take us through one, take us through from start to finish what the construction of a roux spear looks like.
SPEAKER_02Um shit. I don't know how to describe it. I'd need to show you, you know.
SPEAKER_00But um Okay, we're not so we're making the shaft. What are you gonna use for your spear shaft?
SPEAKER_02For the spear, I'll just go and get an acacia tree because they're more versatile and easier to get around to.
SPEAKER_00You're talking like a like a branch?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no, the whole young sapling tree coming out, and they're good because they've got the rings of the wood so that the s also all the sap bind together when you hit them with the fire and straighten them and stuff.
SPEAKER_00So what's that?
SPEAKER_02So you heat them up to Yeah, I heat them up until you hear the sap start boiling out each end.
SPEAKER_00The lignin starts moving so it gets flexible.
SPEAKER_02Yep, and then just straighten it up. I tend to use a piece of stringy bark because it gets a bit hot on your hands and your feet.
SPEAKER_00What to like hold it?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, like a glove, and um tend to use sand or something to cool it down as well, or water when it's when you get it straight. And then once you get it semi-straight, then you strip the bark off it, re-light the fire with the bark that you've ignored.
SPEAKER_00Why are you leaving the bark on? Is that that to steam it or to dry?
SPEAKER_02Steam it so the basically kind of it's like uh all the rings inside the tree will then tend to glue together with like a casing inside. So yeah, like a boiler with the lid on. And then once you get it straight and then you let it cool in this in a straight position, don't like hold it anywhere, it's got to be flat, or else it's all that was just a waste of time.
SPEAKER_00Right, yeah, yeah, sure.
SPEAKER_02And then once you strip that off, the bark should come off, and when it should feel a bit sticky on your hands, once it's and then you you hit it again and dry it out, and then you'll see all the little stringy hairs start going on fire, and then it'll start getting a different sound to it. It won't sound as wet, it'll sound like a a stick, and then that's when all those rings are sticking together, and there's a test. Um what I was taught, so your thumb, the fum, your fum, individual person, their fum is the thickness of where the barb should be. So the barb, what's the barb? All the barbs, the the the prongs that you put in the end of the spear that hits the fish for fishing, right? Okay, yeah. So, or even the roux, it doesn't matter what spear it is, the where the heavy end, it has to be as thick as your farm. Right, okay. And then where your woomer is, it has to be as thick as your pinky.
SPEAKER_00And we'll get to a woman in just one moment. So you've got your shaft and then your tip. What are you making the end your end of your lance out of?
SPEAKER_02Um Lance, what's the lance? The lance say the the spearhead. Oh the spearhead, yeah. Um either some some red box, some really hard timber. Um we used to use a lot of um iron bark, not yeah, iron bark and paper bark tree down the roots, because they're they're solid, but that's another another way of doing it that lasts longer when you heat that that barb up. So but yeah, mainly uh iron bark, something good good hard wood. Yeah, some good hard timber or or I forget the name of is it the quart quartz stone?
SPEAKER_00Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Like uh flint or choke or something, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02But finding that I've got to go back to Tinger to get the proper stuff, so I just use the butt the timber heads.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean it's heavily traded, wasn't it? You know, there are a few regions that have got good stuff.
SPEAKER_02You've got stones down here in Mudgy, but they're more river stones, and like you've got to work hard to get to the middle to get to the goods. So there's a lot of rock there to get to that solid, and I just too busy hunting.
SPEAKER_00It's amazing how good a a good spade hardwood tip to lance. I mean, they get sharp as well. Like they've they called it iron wood for a reason. It's yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Well I I some of the tips that I've made, I've sanded them enough to be able to to cut the skin off the roo and wow, yeah and skin the roo with it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so also uh there's a barb on the end of the lance sometimes, isn't it on the end of the spear end sometimes, isn't there?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you put a barb on there, yeah. That's that's for a blood trail, so the spear stays in it. Yeah. And so like if you're hunting by yourself, that's a good one. Because you'll hear the hear him running away with the spear in. Sure, yeah, yeah. If he does get away from you, you'll you'll definitely hear him.
SPEAKER_00Marsupials hopping on they don't have the stability or force, so it like pulls them off, doesn't it? So you can't there's like pulling them off to the side, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. Oh there's a skill in all of that. When you hunt with a few blokes, then like once you get one in it, then it's pretty much you just trail him down and knock him over the head. But good club. Yeah. Um, but another couple of blokes would probably throw a couple of backup spears in and then say you don't have to run.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, sure, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Because they do team effort, they do take off pretty quick, man.
SPEAKER_00Um what about you you mentioned Warmerer? What uh what style of warmer are you talking about? What's your uh how you're making your warmers?
SPEAKER_02Uh we well we use this tree called um cherry belat. And it's a light wood, it's good for boomerangs, and it's good for boomerangs and stuff. And I use that in my my smoking ceremonies though. So when we get to wherever we go on the hunt, we make sure we get some certain trees, and that's part of it. And that's the tree that we use to make the woomerah. Um it's nice and light and hard, and it's floats. So if you Important stuff, yeah, yeah, it floats, because there's some heavy timbers that you can make good woomers out of it, but you get in that water and it's floating down. Yeah, up in it's dropping down, not floating.
SPEAKER_00Sorry. I'm trying to think if I was in porpher, if I was in what air, up on the northern coast. There's a a tree which has got like thorns on the outside, it almost looks like a really, really thick rose um stem, but with smaller thorns if it was like actual size, and that stuff you can get a trunk which is a foot wide and three foot long and lift it up with one arm. Yeah, it's like beautiful make it. There's like red stuff, you've probably seen it. Yeah, they make a warmer out of that. Beautiful, beautiful. So um, what about Barb for your warmer? Is that just carving out the same wood? Are you using something else?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, we it that comes down to a knack to being a carver and being able to use the stone to carve something so small. Um, but there are quicker techniques to save you from doing all of that. Like what? Uh the fork from a tree.
SPEAKER_00Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so you you you keep one end to make a barb and then the other part of the fork you flatten that out and that's what sits on you on your barb there. And while when you put the sinew on, that's when you it's easier to sharpen it. So when the s sinew's dried, you can shape your barb. I've seen some or you can do it off and but that's where you hold in your hand in your hand and barb, but just takes a bit longer.
SPEAKER_00I have seen some guys use uh bits of animals as well.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Um on the end of me Woomeram we use a kangaroo toe.
SPEAKER_00Oh yeah?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, for a barb there.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, what do you uh use any binding as well to attach it down?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, sinew from the tails. The tails, the tail specifically. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Tell us a bit about that. How are you harvesting that?
SPEAKER_02Uh pretty much when you're getting the tail to eat, you would take a couple of strands out and like dry it out around your round your around your spear.
SPEAKER_00So it's like long threads of like spaghetti. It kind of looks like a spaghetti.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And um, yeah, you wind them up and you dry them out and then you put them in your dilly bag or your sack for next time or you know, when you are making your spear, you can cook your dinner and then use all the parts that you're taking off it for the morning when you wake up.
SPEAKER_00Fair play. It can be very hard to hunt with a spear, I hear. It's uh a lot about the fact that you telegraph them with like you're big you gotta do that big sweeping arm with a bow, you can kind of not because you know they can string jump even with a bow, with like a seven-pound bow. 100%. When you're trying to get an a get a spear which is got a lot of force, but it's not as fast, and you're gonna swing your arm around and trying to get something to not run away. Yeah, I can imagine is a nightmare.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that that's why there's you gotta practice all the time in every scenario. So if you're using your spear, you do the same thing like you would with a bow, get your your reps and scenarios, and um yeah, you you just gotta pretty much same thing, try if you can't throw a spear when you're sitting down, you you over spear, like same thing. So if you you should be able to say, if you're in a boat, because I hunt out of my canoe as well, try and get ducks, and like I just cover the whole canoe in trees and look like a floating tree down there, and nice, yeah, and you've only got one shot, and yeah, you've got to be able to do it sitting down and already have the arm ready to go, so you're less movement. So in doing that for a kangaroo, they're designed to be the alarms of this place, you know. So they're sure they're they've got the same ear system as a deer. So it's similar to that. So if you're hunting deer with a bow, you treat it like you would with a with a spear and kangaroo.
SPEAKER_00Do you think the the roos sit a bit prettier? Like, because there's not really because obviously like the deer, they've been evolving with animals that are constantly like trying to hunt them. Uh but you know, kangaroos, they're pretty alright. You know, they have had dingoes and uh Tassie tigers. Do you think they sit every prettier they're a bit less skittish?
SPEAKER_02Well th they have song lines to this land. The deer don't.
SPEAKER_00Yeah sure.
SPEAKER_02So that that's like they're just more relaxed in their house.
SPEAKER_00Do you I'm what I'm saying is do you um you do have some I know you have some successes with uh with marsupials like wallabies and kangaroos but I think do you ever manage to spear any other game like do you ever get pigs or deer or anything like that?
SPEAKER_02Well I try to I try to keep my hunting traditionally with the spear and I hunt traditional animals of this land with the spear. Yeah cool. To give them that old school my for my people, my ancestors that I'm not harming them in a cheating way I'm doing it the way my old people did. And with the pest species I'm happy to put an arrow through them. Sure. So anything that shouldn't be they'll use the bow to help the job get done. So at the same time as me hunting traditionally I'm making my my people proud of what I'm doing with a spear that I've kept it going and teaching my kids the same thing. Yeah awesome that if you've got a spear you hunt and you only hunt the natives with that spear so it gives them a bit of a if you're not ready you're not getting it. Yeah you know what I mean so continuing the traditions. Yeah but if with bow work you can shoot a target all day and then go out in the afternoon and then first thing you know you're already there but with a spear it's completely different.
SPEAKER_00Do you worry about the uh the bow hunting ban, the hunting the how they're creeping into our hunting in general do you think that's going to become a problem and it's going to be something that might even affect Aboriginal people in the future well I know I got an opinion on those things but at the end of the day I'll keep to myself so that's fair enough mate that's fair it doesn't matter what whether it's a spear they're taking spears off brothers and sisters anyway or brothers anyway they shouldn't be yeah so I mean as I'm not I I think it differs as well from like uh state to state and country to country a little bit but the the the general rule it's see what the misconception a lot of people have is is that if you're Aboriginal you're just allowed to hunt and there's no government involvement but it's not it's you're allowed to hunt with traditional correct me if I'm wrong you're allowed to hunt with traditional tools right just allowed to hunt and then everything else you're just under the same laws as everybody else.
SPEAKER_02Yep exactly so if it's a if it's not a traditional weapon then yeah you're just another bear bumming shell pretty much.
SPEAKER_00We didn't touch on boomerangs so the use of boomerangs is one thing I see the least when I go in a visited remote communities there's usually a lot of use of the spear still but I don't I'm just in my personal I've not um known a lot of guys that still get out after it with a boomerang but you uh you still do and I've seen some of your spectacular boomerangs.
SPEAKER_02Well yeah no but you can hunt with boomerang but I don't know that takes talent. Yeah. I think people misunderstand what the normal boomerang was for.
SPEAKER_00Yeah so they're not flying back at you now nah none of mine do.
SPEAKER_02Yeah no minor heat seekers they'll go straight for the whatever it's hitting straight and true. Yeah pretty much and that that comes down with a talent with balance and every every one I make I I go out and use it.
SPEAKER_00Well this is it the Aboriginal 5000 years ago they invented the aeroplane's wing you know getting that curl at the top so it's just so just aerodynamic and then flat at the bottom with a little bit of lip if you look down the barrel of a boomerang for lack of a better word and you look at the side of the window when you're on a plane you're looking at exactly the same thing.
SPEAKER_02It's amazing really isn't it yeah yeah well that's just I don't know there's a lot of a lot of black fellow technology that they've not really getting credit for but um a lot of inventions yeah but I don't know it works and that type of boomerang that flies represents another like a a bird the scared of ducks.
SPEAKER_00The the returning boomerangs oh I've got my own theories on how it comes about because I messed up a few boomerangs when I first gave it a try as that with some mob and they said no what you're not doing is you're not heat treating it. No one took me they took me through the carving but the putting it over the coals and getting because obviously it's tapered and if it's tapered out to the edges and to the ends then as it dries those bits dry quicker and it warps. Now that natural warp if you get a lucky one with a good piece of because of how our uh cacias grow really slowly you get a bit of warp that actual natural warp if you don't heat treat it is going to give you that that returning effect isn't it that like that that lip up on either side and yeah from my knowledge it was only mob in the south wasn't it that actually used it to did they use them up here to throw over to make it look like a bird right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah well there's so many yarns about but I was told that it was just a kid's toy and then the dads took it as a hunting tool.
SPEAKER_00So I heard that they used to put nets they used to do it for waterfowl. They would look up and see the boomerang and at a glance think it was a bird of prey and then swoop down to the water to get away from it and notice the water because they wouldn't like to bump dive on the water because they didn't they'd go under and it would be a problem.
SPEAKER_02Well that I don't know if you noticed but that technique they got a net yeah the net from one side to the other like the Southern cross spider. They pull it up as they're flying in. Oh they pull it up right I thought it was just a cross oh the net's on the water right okay that's the technique is so they've already got the net in there and they're coming back they're waiting for the birds to come back and then a brother boy will throw the boomerang that scares the birds to fly in a certain direction thinking it's a hawk or an eagle or something and that the whole mob bird will go in one direction and as they're flying they just lift that up as the birds are going down the waterline because that's the safest exit way to get flight they're not going to go from the water bank straight up to the bank to get flight they're gonna go down. Right like a like a plane would as it's coming in yeah so it's that's a clearer runway so you've only got left or right so they'll either have one one mob at this end and another mob at that end waiting once the birds come down and they even make fake birds to bring them down. Even make fake birds yeah little like decoys yeah little decoys nice like it's I don't know but these are the techniques that I was just thinking you took for granted yeah yeah and as I got into a teenager I just it all fluffed away and yeah it's funny how those thoughts I mean maybe it's just different techniques.
SPEAKER_00I heard that they would just have it like a southern cross spider you know the spiders that build their nests from across the water to catch the flies that are or whatever's going across the meflies and stuff going across them.
SPEAKER_02They were copying that but I mean you know it's like it could just be someone sort of thing well the nets weren't like a net is what you think and they're a net there it's so what would they mean up what were they like a net the shape and everything but they're not like a fishing net style they weren't like a prawning net or a cast net or something. It was just something enough to knock them down as they're taking that flight. Right okay it's just to get them back onto the water because once their wings are open and that's when they can get waterlogged a lot more. Oh is it okay because there's there's I don't know but people might say different but the underpits of a duck can get wet so they're on the outside of a duck. They're not as oil oily as the yeah because that bear can get moist and then their wings won't flap.
SPEAKER_00Right interesting so if you can know that technique to get the ducks to just be in the water that's where your boomerang comes in and just and what kind of boomerang because there are different styles in different places aren't there you know you get the ones that are kind of bigger in their like equal equa distant on either side they're like the the traditional like both sides of the thing you get the sevens in the bit of a swoop.
SPEAKER_02Well that just that's like a fingerprint of your country too. So not everyone makes the same shape boomerang so like and that's another way of telling where you're from what the timber is and what how big the bend is or what type of shape it is. Not everyone had the club fighting clubs. What were the clubs called uh around your way because everyone knows or a lot of people who know know the nulla nulla as the uh the smaller club yeah that's that was ours you had the nulla nulls yeah yeah well that's what my dad used to call these so and it was only a short one I've got it on my emblem oh yeah one of the the nulla nulls on there that's the one my dad used to make and then the seven I'm not sure I don't think the seven's from ours but dad used to make sevens a lot I think I saw you had like a Kimberly Stinger style one with points on the end as well.
SPEAKER_00Did you make that?
SPEAKER_02Yeah they're for the well that's for like when you're fighting that's that's uh that's more of a war club isn't it yeah yeah that's so you can get that extra little jab in and if it does come hit you and you're throwing it like it's it's not gonna bruise you it's gonna stick into you. And like that style's the one where they would fight with the shield as well so you can deflect it.
SPEAKER_00Because you I mean from what I can remember you're a pretty good shot you uh you were pretty good at uh hitting the targets with both spear and boomerang I like to hope so that's that's the whole point there's no need for modesty here I want to come home with something so yeah and I think that's the thing like uh so I was up on the northern coast in the of the NT and I was out with a group of boys and there was one boy in particular he was definitely eating well you can tell that by looking at him right he his second favourite thing after spearfishing was picking his nose but I tell you what that boy was the best spearfisherman I've ever seen as the the waves were rolling in I'm not talking big big waves just the little rollers you'd get a glimpse of a mullet and he was zinging them straight in the head and I was so impressed and all the other boys got really competitive they were going from one barb to 12 barbs and using different different arm bamboos for this and that so I talked to him I said how can you um do how how come you're so good he said because that's literally how we eat we they go onto the shore at some times of the year you get reined in so you can't get back to the the community so he's like I'm literally doing it to survive and when you do tell yourself I'm not gonna eat unless I get something you will do a lot better already you'll take your time you you won't move you just will be in the right spot at the right time because you've learnt your lesson right and you're not stopping so even when you're not throwing it in the and you're walking along the beach you're still having a practice of like I don't know hitting a leaf or something you're always training with it and aim small miss small same thing and but once you um get out the Robbie learn that word reflection and how to read that or the water and the depth um then yeah that it just comes natural and you you just know where to put it and you get it every time and if you miss it's I don't know if someone's watching you and you've you've talked it up a bit and you know but when you're out there and you're trying to get food for like when I get food for me and my mum yeah oh I'll miss five but I'll come home with three you know what I mean so it fills the freezer.
SPEAKER_02Yeah so it it goes alright for me.
SPEAKER_00If you don't mind me asking let me know if you do what what what are you wearing around your neck there?
SPEAKER_02Is that a Well there that that's my first kangaroo that I spear. So what is it for the people at home? Uh two kangaroo teeth two kangaroo teeth? Yeah it's the bottom teeth the bottom two of the jaw like the where they at the front or something yeah yeah the front they're the grinders at the top pluck it and then the bottom chew it.
SPEAKER_00Is that a traditional thing to make a necklace out of the those teeth? Well the first one yeah um I don't know yeah kind of keep your first one first speed one so just to explain for guys at home there's a a leather bit of thong attached to two teeth that are like bound around the teeth and then they meet at the top and it actually looks pretty cool. It looks a bit like a like a lobster's claw almost.
SPEAKER_02Yeah they split up in one each yeah they just wrap with um leather around it nothing too special but um looks pretty special looks cool. Yeah well my son Hunter's been dying for ease and he's a bit scared about his scar so you get a scar in your first one.
SPEAKER_00Oh really? What's that more how does that go?
SPEAKER_02It's it's not much of a it's more of a burn.
SPEAKER_00Uh just on the top of your arm between your peck and your shoulder yeah yeah it's I don't know. And what did they what how how do you do that?
SPEAKER_02Burn it Nah yeah there's a bit of a part but that's that's a that's a yeah that's for my people it's men's business.
SPEAKER_00But yeah he's a bit worried about that and that's that's part of it though isn't it well that's part of ours or that's not everyone's well I mean I think to a very lesser extent it's through the lack of an initiative we often go to tattoos don't we?
SPEAKER_02That's what in the Western world we've got you know people they get something when they reach a certain age they decide for some reason they want to get drawn on and they they go through that rites of passage of having the pain and they worry about it and yeah well that's that's hence why I don't know in in mine don't take an animal's life if you're not ready to take a bit of his pain with you. Right. Is that the the message yeah yeah so that's why you gotta eat it. That's why you don't harm it 'cause you're gonna feel a bit of a sting because you gotta share that. So it's I don't know you you draw that spear on that animal then you better be prepared for the rest of it too. Sure. So you've got to share the pain.
SPEAKER_00Um also just wanted to talk about and mention you do wonderful men's initiatives um cultural experiences should I say well no I reckon it's just hang out with me and I'll show you something well that's that's more modesty no you you it's uh so what do you do you put together um trips events yeah I I try to I try and create a space for men like myself who don't have a space to go to to give all these techniques a go.
SPEAKER_02So there's one thing about going to schools and throwing the spears and the boomerangs in the paddock but there's another another level to that and that's can you do it for real? And that's what I teach people and that's what I aim to is to go well if I can do it you can too man I'll show you how to do it. And you can show your people that you're keeping up with your traditions or you're respecting old people's traditions if you don't have bloodlines to it. But um the aim is to be able to just re-educate people that yeah we were hunters but we cared for the land more than we took from it. So and I I try to rub off on a way to try and change a few people's vibrations in camp to understand what walking with country means not walking on it. I don't hunt for the fun of it, I hunt to eat so if I'm not if I'm full I'm not gonna go hunt anything I'll go and hang out and do research with the animals and every element and that's what I try to explain to people that if you want success um go be part of country for a while so take them for taken from it and um I don't know I just try to show people that being Aboriginal there's a different way of being proud of your country like and knowing that it is your supermarket and you don't need to store like I don't know like like most people would in their cupboards and everything you know so fresh is best I'm just bit privileged enough to be able to walk out there and come home with something. Sure you've got pretty good deer country what is it a song a song away song away so um it is pretty hard because I do go out there a lot and I sit with them to watch the deer too so to try them not to be so alarmed with me 'cause I'm down there so so much. But being down there so much I've learnt that I have to walk a bit further now because all the deer have come and they're all the does with their babies so I don't really want to stuff that up. So now I'm I've got to walk a bit further now to find the good ones, the ones that I can shoot because I don't really like lactating meat.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_02Yeah and also I mean it's next year's or year after or even the year after that's well I live out here too so I don't know I don't need to shoot everything to see but you know I can go down there and check them out and see the fatness of them or there's always a murray cod if you uh if you don't see them I don't know there's there's a lot of things down there that I could come home with but the deer side is more of respect to to the archery game you know like so I see the deer and I just hunt them like kangaroo and I can get like pretty close to them. Taking advantage of that with a bow is pretty pretty cool but I don't know I'm not biting the hand that feeds me really so there's enough down there to look after me and my mum and my kids.
SPEAKER_00And it's it's good that you embrace both kind of sides like your traditional culture but also the the modern day the neo culture of bow hunting and yeah going after dear fair chase with a with a second string. Yeah well I think it's just exciting it's it's probably a bit more harder work because um you gotta carry such more gear with a spear I carry three spears and my woman that's it you know but um it's good fun I like the camo I like the glass and of the heels like there's so many things that I put to it that I get it just comes down to I get to be out on country because it's like I think I mean camo I think that's one of the things that people often miss is that they I know a lot of people who start they get into it and within a few trips they've got themselves gunned because they don't realize you don't just take a bow jump out in the bush you know you'd need to get your techniques right you're saying about glassing is an art on itself.
SPEAKER_02Oh a hundred percent like I don't know you there's that's where my percentage comes in my my theory with percentage that if you're not doing something every day you're not gonna be good at it. So and with hunting there's so many levels to be able to get to a successful rate I think he's mildly exaggerating when he says every day but yeah if you're not uh consistent persistent yeah well you gotta either think about it do it or be a part of it you could I don't know you gotta live eat shit breathe the game if you want to be in it and be successful. I don't know anyone who I don't know I don't know who anyone who comes in it and just can kill it and is good at it. I don't know anyone like that. So everyone that I know that's hunted struggled and learned the hard way.
SPEAKER_00This is the problem I think people have is they follow the people on socials the the top 1% and they go well they're just one minute they're showing you their new bows and the next minute they're just showing you a picture of them with the animal but the in between the scouting the practice the like the year round the the the failed hunts the a lot of people will not show you the fact that it took took them five or six trips to even find something let alone get onto it to shoot it you can talk in like a dozen hunts in some cases. Some people are privileged they've got a property which is riddled with animals and they've never been touched before and they'll get a few and they'll look like they're super successful because they're super skilled but it's the guys that are going out and consistently every year they're not
SPEAKER_02Well they're the one they're the knowledge gainers because they're the ones that you ax those trady secrets of because they're the ones that have seen whatever they're hunting in every part of their element so you can see when they're distressed a lot quicker. You can see if a storm's coming, they'll sense it before you. So if you can recognise all of this stuff, you'll know where to find them, predict their movements and just makes things like it feels like you're cheating. But when people I find lads who come in based off YouTube and everyone else on the socials that make it look really easy and then they have a go at it. I think they gain a new respect to the to the archery game when they realise how bloody hard it is.
SPEAKER_00Well they either gain a respect or uh or a 30 calibre. Yeah. They go one way or the other, they either they either shoot blame themselves and get themselves a gun or realise that there's serious levels to it and Yeah, well I I always say that the archery game is the you know, like that's the entrance door for the lads to get into the gun game.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's gonna be a good one. Because it just sorts the men from the boys, really. So I'm like, I tell my boys if you can kill or harvest meat with a bow, you're quieter, you'll be able to come back or even get something else while you're gutting that one on the ground, because you're quiet. Well, the echoes of a gunshot still travels for ages after you shot it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, everything knows it. I think it's actually I want to do some tests, we want to look into this hard. I think it's definitely more detrimental because I mean the actual point of impact of the shot when you get them with a bow, as long as they didn't see you, they don't know what's going on. With a gun, there's no doubt.
SPEAKER_02Well, they know where it's coming from. Yeah, the Best and Bills, they they hear it different to us.
SPEAKER_00But what you're saying back to what you're saying, I find as well when I'm constantly inundated with people who are interested in bow hunting and come to me because they see my stuff, they hear my stories, whatever. I'm at the point now where I tend to almost put people off more than I do encourage them, because it's like, what's your life like? What's your marriage like?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, are you able to fit in the dedication and discipline level you need to be able to be successful?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, a few thousand dollars and you can get into compound bows, it will take you ten to a hundred hours and you be ready to go, and it's a lot easier. If you want to pay less money, you can get yourself a traditional bow. And then it's even harder every day. Yeah, the monotonous grind of going out and getting after it.
SPEAKER_02Well, that's even having the places to go to do that. Like some people don't have it.
SPEAKER_00You need a well, I mean, you really need a home range. I'm fortunate I've got enough space in my garden that I'm lucky I've got nice neighbours as well that don't mind. Um, but yeah, I can get my reps in, get up in the morning, hour before work, before doing this, get in my dozen arrows at least, one arrow when I'm getting closer to the time and I'm just going on that first shot. You you really can't just be like, I'm gonna get a trad bow, and I've got a place that I drive five to ten minutes to go to that I can you just you Yeah, it's a whole lifestyle change completely.
SPEAKER_02It's it's not a bad lifestyle change because it's only gonna make you better. Because depends on if how hard you want it and your discipline level, that and you're not one of those, oh it's too hard, I'm gonna quit, and you just let it gain dust. If you're true to yourself, the archery game has made me more stealth, more aware of what's around me. Um the fact that I get to wear camo, so that in here enhanced my stalking and being able to get up on critters and things like that. Um I don't know, there's so many benefits, and you can easily understand once you get into the the routine of your shot process, everything like you can find your mistakes a lot quicker and you can cre correct them because you know where you went wrong. Sure, yeah. So it it it slows down your train of thought. So like I like you were saying, I could go out and shoot arrows. I used to shoot fifty arrows every morning, every day, when I was a tad horse before I went to go tattoo, and then come home and do the same thing. And then so to to be able to do that, you need to train that muscle for that one shot, and I don't know how to explain it, but there's no warming up in the bush.
SPEAKER_00No, there isn't.
SPEAKER_02There isn't. You can't tell the animal to come back, or you can't walk down and grab your animal your arrow out of the tree that you missed, and then expect to walk back to take another shot. But having that process to be able to draw back when the animal's there and and executing it, and I don't know, that there feeling the dopamine hits it's way better than shooting a gun and oh got it.
SPEAKER_00I think so.
SPEAKER_02I think you've got to walk that far to go get it. You're right up personal with this animal, you've seen the the shine on the eyes, you get a bit of a connection. I don't know, the feeling of it is oh, next level.
SPEAKER_00Like you can't, and you did it, but you also need to love that as much as coming home with dinner. I I say to people as well, I'm like, look, if you just want to go out and harvest food and provide for your family and garden and you don't have a lot of time, you're probably better off getting a rifle. But if you love to bushwalk and you love to see animals almost as much as you love to harvest them, to get that close, to make a mistake and take it on board and blame yourself and accept the fact that you could have got it with a gun but you didn't because you had to get in that bit closer. If you can take that and enjoy that process, then you're a bow hunter.
SPEAKER_02If you if you're just gonna get frustrated and well, you've got to know what you gotta know your butchering skills too. No point in going and shoot something and then not knowing how to break it down and bring it home. Could be a stinking uh hot day and you've shot something and it's half K away or however far that you gotta get there to get it if you choose to take it home.
SPEAKER_00Don't get me wrong, using a rifle and going out hunting it's uh as an art in itself. And I love going out and I do I shoot 30 cow and I've got to go out and I go rifle hunting, but there's just something about the graft and that what you're saying about the sense of accomplishment when you do manage to harvest something.
SPEAKER_02Like my son shoots as well, like he shoots, he's 22, and he's a cracker shot. Like, I don't know, some people have it, some people have a talent for things, and yeah, he picks up a bow, same thing, shoots mad, and I'm like, you need to choose one.
SPEAKER_00Well his name's Hunter, so uh my eldest son.
SPEAKER_02Your oldest. Yeah, my other son, Hunter, he won't drop the bow. He loves a bow too much. Yeah, good, nice um, but my eldest is in arms of what he's gonna choose, whether he's gotta wants to use his bow or his gun.
SPEAKER_00There's no need, there's space, there's we all hunting hunting.
SPEAKER_02But that's yes, in getting it back, because I don't do it for them. I if you're gonna take this animal's life, you're doing everything. You make them what yeah, lug it, carry it out, everything.
SPEAKER_00Like don't shoot it if you're not gonna do nothing. Nice. What's good is great. It's a great uh lesson because there are lots of times it's and in fact it's rare that you do have people that are also hunting, willing to give up their pursuits or just follow you around and then get elbow deep for you. Yeah, you're often on your own. Yeah, on your own. Shooting that sample's great, but when you get when it hits the floor and it's starting the sun's going down.
SPEAKER_02That's when you kind of sort of wish you had someone with you, so to bring all that meat back, because a lot of times I've shot something and it's too far from the youth, and cause I don't have any all that cool gear to drive around and that I've got to walk mountains. Sometimes you've got to sacrifice because you've walked so far to get to see something, and then you've got to weigh up your discipline level. Am I gonna take all of this back?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And then you've got to try and work out are you gonna lug it through the bush? Um, are you just taking legs, back strap, head? I mean all of that by putting it into an archery, wherever it's gun, you can think of that further away.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean in America, I like I can't I do like they've got the I mean it's intrusive, so I mean there's there's my kind of old old libertarian self that doesn't like them being involved, but the way that the uh fish and game service they will randomly come and check your carcasses, and in some places it's just spine and ribs, that's all you're allowed to leave there. Like they you need to take everything, you know. Sometimes it's just backs and straps. Well, that's there's no like I don't disagree with that. No, I mean it's I mean it's good. I mean, apart from the fact you've been followed around by the ranger, I think that's just that part of it I'm not a fan of, but the yeah, I mean you should be anyway. Definitely make it as much happen as possible.
SPEAKER_02Give the show respect to the animal. He decided to get in front of you and give you that that glory dopamine hit. So treat his body with a bit of respect. Either take something from it or or um trophy it, you know, do something with it, give it to your dogs or turn it into an ornament, use the bones for blood and bone, whatever.
SPEAKER_00Do something. So just wanting to jump back into um your cultural experience camp. So what's the kind what kinds of things do you do? How does a a general camp experience work?
SPEAKER_02Oh, I basically try to do what my dad would did with me. Um there's so many different ways of having a camp. I think it all de based on how experienced each person is. So I'll basically weigh that up. If there's a camp full of people that haven't done any hunting before, then we have to start from the bottom. But if there's some type of other people that have already done hunting and they're just coming to learn some new stuff, then like I'd pretty much go up that hill and if you want to come with me, then wait and we'll go at this time. But if they've got the knowledge, then I'd pretty much tell them to go for gold. Go do what you you want to try and show me your direction. If you want me to come, then just you know, just hang on.
SPEAKER_00But yours, you're making spears, is that right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. I show them how to make the artifacts with my dad.
SPEAKER_00Spears, boomerangs, how to select the right part of the tree, hunting techniques and foraging as well, things like uh looking for widgety grubs.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, witchety grubs, you can get those, how to forage for medicines. We didn't get to do that um on the last trip. Um there's just it all depends because I find it it gets a bit overwhelming if you teach people too much on camps. So, and then they kind of mash it all together, and then that's how they get lost with it. Because the way I was taught was small, and it wasn't with speech, it was movement, and that's how I remember. Is this restricted? Do you have to be aboriginal to come on these experiences? No, no, no. It's more of awareness camps, and what I really aim to do is to I know for a fact there's a lot of curious brothers out there that want to hunt with spear and woomer and boomerang and do their old song line ten techniques to hunt and gain, but they don't have places to do it. Or they don't have or they don't know the laws and restrictions with certain weapons and stuff. Um seasons. Sometimes you're not allowed to eat the food where the camp is, so we have I should have to teach them that part of nah that animal's out of seasons breeding or something like that. So knowledge like that just helps them so when they go back home, it gives them a little bit of an understanding of where they can go at their place and what they can get away with as being an indigenous man and still practice his culture in the hunting realm. That he can he can go do his things, but he can't over like go to the shops and fill a trolley up and he has to just take what he's him and his family need.
SPEAKER_00And also for non-Indigenous people who want to embrace the culture in their own way and learn some skills, it's open to them too. I think that's something I heard when I was up in Pomperal, they actually have shared a lot of their lore. They have you if you buy their book and they say that what happened is is their culture is disappearing because they don't share it and they think it should be embraced because colonialists came here and spread their culture and it took over, so their idea is to share it back. And I think there's this thing where it's called cultural appropriation when it's really just cultural appreciation, and there's a line, you know, taking it and trying to make it something else and skewing it and restricting it from the people whose culture it is that is terrible. That's cultural appropriation. But guys who are genuinely interested in a lot of techniques that were universal as well, but wanting to get involved, who feel like they aren't welcome, I suppose, is a way of putting it. Yeah, no, they're awesome, they're gonna be able to do it.
SPEAKER_02Always welcome to learn. Because at the end of the day, I'm just teaching you what I was taught from my dad, and it's pretty successful for me. I can predict that I'm gonna come home with something because of the dedication and the knowledge, and and it feels so normal, and I want to teach that to people, especially the young men and the men that are curious, that are at home, and they can hear country calling them, but they just have no no way of doing it. Everyone can go down the park and and they feel like they're um country, but I want them to come come hunt food with us and break make damper and eat with us and around the fire, sit with the old people at night and live the way they did.
SPEAKER_00That's amazing. And uh out of interest for people who want to find you, how would they go about doing that?
SPEAKER_02Um this one now is on my Instagram, on country living.
SPEAKER_00Um is that on country living? Yeah, one word. O N C U N T on Country Living, all one word. I tell you what, this is going to be uh a a post-dated episode. So this episode won't be coming out for a number of months yet, and um if you're up for it, we haven't discussed this at all, but if we coincide this with you announcing one of your next courses, then this will when you're listening to this. If you go to on country living and you've listened to it in the first say three weeks or a month, then you will find the date for the next course on country living.
SPEAKER_02Or little. I do like a lot of private stuff as well. It's only because I'm I funded everything for myself, so I fund it all, I don't get grants or anything.
SPEAKER_00Okay, uh well that's wonderful that you've you're uh doing it uh in such a wonderful way. You know, you've started this all by yourself. Shazza.
SPEAKER_02Yep.
SPEAKER_00You're a legend. Thank you very much for being on the show. Um is if you've got a last message for the people, anything you'd like to add before we sign off? Um take your rubbish time when you go to the country. Couldn't put it better myself. Thank you very much, buddy. I appreciate you. Nice.