Archery Is For Everyone

Andy Donald is a passionate archer and bowhunter. A lifelong condition that renders him legally blind (and grants him special powers) truly proves that archery is for everyone.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hi, I'm Andy Donald. And this is Wild Takes.

SPEAKER_02 0:13

Today on the show, I'm joined by traditional archer and bow hunter Andy Donald. Although he has a condition that renders him legally blind, he proves that archery truly is for everyone. Perfect. So Andy, the Nocturnal Archer.

SPEAKER_00 0:43

How are we doing, buddy? Doing good, thanks, Caitlin. Yeah, thanks for having me on. Um yeah, Nocturnal Archer, yeah. That's my handle. Um some of you might know why I go by Nocturnal Archer and um others may not. Um but I'm sure we'll get into that later on.

SPEAKER_02 1:02

For sure, for sure. Um it is amazing to have you on. It's been a little while since I've seen you, unfortunately. I mean we went out for a little bit of recon and a a bow hunt. I I'd even know I don't even want to guess how long ago that was now.

SPEAKER_00 1:16

Yeah, too long, but yeah, it's always great to see you, mate. Um that was fantastic fun. Um even though we were completely unsuccessful, but we did have a great weekend hanging out and talking and stalking. Um and I'm always learning so much. You know, I remember so clearly from that um adventure that you you had us all making fire with native Australian woods, I believe. That is that it that did happen, yeah. Yeah. And that experience has never left me. It's um yeah, it's one I I I love to um talk about and and reminisce about. Um Yeah, it's it was just such a a profound experience to see that fire, that flame come to life in your hands. Um and it was a wet weekend too, if I remember. There was a bit of rain and and uh you were finding all these different fire-starting materials from the the inside of cracking open grass pods and finding this fluffy stuff and and moss and and dried fungi and stashing it all and and yeah, we were we were making flame. It was really cool.

SPEAKER_02 2:38

So it was a super successful hunting trip. I thought so, yeah. I'm glad you remembered that. Yeah, we did. We uh at camp we got into it. Yeah, it's uh it's interesting because we used the bow drill method. Yeah. Uh yeah, which is because Aboriginal people in Australia, they almost exclusively, there's some argument, in the centre they used a little bit of fire saw with uh warmara on warmer, but generally just the hand drill method where they drilled in with their hands uh on a spindle with a halfboard, and they didn't have the bow drill method left Africa before it was invented. So uh I've done a lot of experimenting to see what woods in the south. There are a few fast-growing ones in the north that work, there's quite a few. Uh some introduced ones, like Lantana works well, uh you know, lots of um native, sorry, native to Europe woods. But um I think we were using black wattle.

SPEAKER_00 3:30

It'll Yeah, I thought so too. Yeah, that brings a pearl.

SPEAKER_02 3:33

That'll whip one up, and that's close to maple, which is I I I wouldn't put it in the category of perfect for process, but uh it definitely works, and it definitely worked, and everyone got a good coal and made some fire.

SPEAKER_00 3:45

It worked. Um so the bow drill method would get more friction uh faster than that.

SPEAKER_02 3:52

So you're essentially Yeah, so you're maximizing your rotations like when you use a hand drill. It's you only got the length of the bottom of your palm to the tip of your fingers. Rubbing two hands together and then you have to stop and work your way back. But when you're using a bow drill, the length of the bow is essentially infinite. It's not well, it's not infinite, but you know, there's you can you can make them considerably longer than the stroke of your hand. I suppose it's not infinite, it's gonna be the length of your arm, it's gonna be your maximum bow drill length then. Um uh yeah, depending on your own particular desired style. Yeah. So you can use woods that won't work for a hand drill. That makes sense, I understand.

SPEAKER_00 4:28

Yeah, very interesting. Yeah, well, that was a great experience.

SPEAKER_02 4:31

Yeah, it was good times. And that's it. Like with bow hunting, sometimes you don't get an animal, but it's about the journey, isn't it? It's like enjoying yourself.

SPEAKER_00 4:39

Yes. Well, we did journey a a lot around. Um it was uh stunning, um, very cold and misty and um beautiful. I'm surprised we didn't see we saw I think we saw one flash of a a fallow or or something, um a little one.

SPEAKER_02 4:58

Um We found some sign. We did find some scat. There was a few few scrapes, a few rubs, should I say. Yeah. It's good times.

SPEAKER_00 5:06

Yeah. Well, I've been um it's it's been too long and I just love um being out in the in nature in the bush with with my bow and um with uh that clear intention of, you know, really connecting with the landscape and the the animals and and being conscious in a way that perhaps, you know, um you're not if you're just going out camping um for leisure, uh you're conscious of every little footprint and and mark that you leave and and um what you touch and and what you um you know, what you're cooking and what where you're putting your rubbish and and all of this sort of stuff to to try and minimize your your presence and um I really like that being, you know, because it it feels uh instinctive in some ways just because we're um hunting is is a way of for me at least of been connecting with the fact that yeah, we're we're animals too and we're part of this ecosystem and um hunting has never been um about um making a kill or coming back with a trophy or um lucky for me it's you know I don't have to do it to feed myself because I d would have died a long time ago. Um so I think yeah, with that approach I you can enjoy any outing, um any moment, you know, the the hard and the the more pleasant um because yeah, it's just there's something special about being in nature with your weapon, um with the skills that you've been honing and all the um all the accessories and all your kit and all your gear and and you know, you've got everything you need on your back and I I I just love that experience. It's it's a beautiful holistic experience. And if you do manage to um harvest something then you know th the learning experience of of taking an animal and and butchering and carrying it out and I mean for me I I've done it so limited, but it's there've been really profound experiences. Um and it's changed me for the better as a person to to experience that and uh it's made me much more conscious about what I eat and where I source my meat when I when I choose to buy meat um and much more conscious of the the living animal I'm I'm consuming as well. Um yeah I think experiencing that and and getting your hands dirty and and feeling that adrenaline and um feeling that all the emotions um yeah, really just uh captivated that experience for me and and um it's changed my whole perspective. Um and I'm I'm keen to do more, but it it will never be a failure if I I dn don't take another animal. Um I love being around other passionate archers and um nature lovers, hunters um learning from their experiences and and um observing them. Um yeah, it's just a lot of life lessons beyond um the technical and the um the specific skills to hunting I I've found and and I never got into archery um because I wanted to hunt. So it it came to me very naturally um through conversations with other, you know, um really experienced and and um skillful archers and hunters. And um yeah, it was it was never something that my family did or um my friends did, but we went fishing, I suppose. Like as close as you can get. Um but uh so it was all new to me and I had a lot of misconceptions and um and yeah, it was it was a for for those reasons especially it was a life-changing experience because it it wasn't really something I expected to do. Um even the first time I I went hunting and I I took um some goats at uh Jack's place, but um yeah, I didn't go out that weekend um thinking I I would be capable of doing that. Um I went there to watch and observe and to learn and um just to experience uh the whole adventure of of hunting and to to see how it's done from some really experienced bow hunters. Um But Jack was so encouraging and um He's a wonderful guide, he is really is like um just the passion for sharing his love of bow hunting and um uh Yeah, that that was really touching because um yeah, he was he was gung-ho about it and he wouldn't have let me leave without having a a good go and he sort of gave me the nudge I needed and um and hung out all weekend guiding me, sometimes quite literally, um, through the scrub because it was pretty bright. I'm not not good in the s in the light.

SPEAKER_02 11:21

This is uh this is this is true. So this episode is rounding off the is for everyone trilogy. We've had uh Shazamab talking about how culture is for everyone. I've had a new hunter, Sean Fong, on talking about how hunting is for everyone, and I've actually was inspired to name these episodes thus because your tagline is Hunter uh sorry, Archery is for everyone. That is uh I believe that's the the tagline.

SPEAKER_00 11:49

It's one I love to use. Yeah, I I I love to um promote that uh because archery really is it's it's such a um a an accessible sport, it's an accessible hobby. Um and I I'm uh yeah, I'm a vision impaired person, so I I live with a a disability.

SPEAKER_02 12:16

Um Yeah, what is your uh what is your condition called?

SPEAKER_00 12:18

What is it specifically? Condition is called rod monochromatism. Um so you're actually legally blind. Indeed, yeah, I'm legally blind. So legally blind has a a legal um definition you can look up. It's a good one to use because you can look up the um the specs, as it were. And uh it's not an easy question to answer when someone says, Well, how much can you see? Because our vision is a highly complex sense. Um and things can go wrong in lots of different ways. Um so for me, uh six sixty is a is uh or um what what you can see at sixty feet I can see at six. Um that's that's the legal definition or something around there, I think, if my memory serves me correctly. So it's it's quite um limited vision, and that's the acuity of your vision, but that's not the whole picture when it comes to vision. And for me, um just as impairing is the sensitivity to light. And uh yeah, the light is is very blinding. So um maybe we can do a quick fact check um because I always get this wrong, Calem. Like um your eyes have rod and cone cells in them, and um one are responsible for daytime vision and one is responsible for nighttime vision. I'm gonna try and remember because for some reason even after all these years I get them mixed up. But I believe your cone cells are clustered in the center of the back of your eye, and your rod cells are scattered around the um the periphery of your eye. So um, so we've got three, haven't we?

SPEAKER_02 14:04

We're trichromatic. Right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:06

Well, there you go.

SPEAKER_02 14:07

Yeah, uh, I know that much. So what are we what am I looking up?

SPEAKER_00 14:09

So we can just look up the purpose of rod and cone cells in the eyes.

SPEAKER_02 14:14

Purpose of rod and con and cone cells in the eyes.

SPEAKER_00 14:18

I'm surprised I can't remember it, but rod monochromatism m means I see with my rods, I believe. I just wanted to check. Since it's a podcast.

SPEAKER_02 14:27

I believe that the um the cone cells are are responsible for a colour. They're different colours. So yeah, we've got that's what I saw.

SPEAKER_00 14:37

Just wanted to make sure I was getting that right inside. I can tell I can tell you now that that your rod cells do your peripheral vision and they also see in the at night under um very sensitive to light.

SPEAKER_02 14:52

Got a response from uh and that's the the rod cells, their purpose is low light and night vision called a scotopic vision.

SPEAKER_00 15:02

There you go. Um so my eyes function purely on rod cells. Right. They don't detect so sorry, they don't detect color.

SPEAKER_02 15:11

Yep. And um they are good at detecting motion and shapes in the dark.

SPEAKER_00 15:16

Exactly. So if you think about your peripheral vision, what it's used for, you know, stuff sneaking up on you in the dark. You need to see that flash sneaking up on the side of you. You don't have to be able to read the newspaper print, but you you need to see it quick. So that's why when you you do things like um martial arts or you're sparring someone or something like that, you're you're seeing with your peripheral vision is faster. It's less detailed.

SPEAKER_02 15:41

I actually have a theory about that, about and I think men generally are better at picking up objects in motion at a distance because we are inherently hunters, and women are better at seeing things in a confused environment that are static. Because if a man goes to the fridge and he's like, where's the milk? And she's like, It's right there next to the ketchup. You men are useless. But when he's out in the bush and a flash goes by as they're driving by in a car, he's like, that was a 17-point stag over there. And I think that's definitely something which is uh to do with our rods and cones.

SPEAKER_00 16:13

So that's maybe, maybe uh next time. So yeah, I don't see with I don't see any colour either. And that that can sometimes be um you know often the most interesting thing to talk about. Um personally, I don't even have a concept of it, so it's not terribly interesting to me. I don't um I don't I'm not interested in colour for any other reason that except that other people seem pretty interested in it, so I'll try and wear some colour occasionally, but to be honest.

SPEAKER_02 16:46

Would you see or I mean you don't have any frame of reference that you see in black and white? Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:51

That's that's essentially how I see. Well, you think about it, your rod cells, they they actually see a little um on the red spectrum. So um I I wear some very dark tinted contact lenses and they're they're bright red. Um that that helps me. Do you have them in now? No, I don't. I have them out because it's it's dark. But you can um yeah, if you watch an old submarine movie, you know, The Hunt for Red October, there's there's a reason there's red light down there and it's to um prepare your eyes to function on their rod cells in case there's a blackout. So you're if the the lights go out, you've been working under red light, that will um switch your rod cells on uh and stop your daytime vision. If you get bright light when you you're in your night mode, um it can take quite a while to change back into night mode, and it does take about 30 minutes apparently or more to fully transition into your rod cells. So that's a thing that often military. Do you know that's why pirates wore an eye patch? Well, it's interest I did not know that.

SPEAKER_02 18:04

The the misconception is it's because the peg leg, it's a go the eye is lost. So he's lost a leg, he's got a peg leg, he's got a peg arm sometimes or a hook on his hand. And the eye patch is because he's lost an eye, which isn't would be natural assumption of pirates. But what it is, is they cover one eye. So when they're above deck, because they're up and down, up and down, under deck, and up. So when they're above deck, they cover one eye, and when they go below deck, they put that they put that patch on the other eye. And then they open that eye. Ready to go night vision.

SPEAKER_00 18:32

Yeah, I've seen military people do that um when reading maps and things like that. Um cover an eye so that yeah, you still have one functioning. So my eyes are in you you can see like me, if you sit in the dark for half an hour and and you know. And when you switch the lights on, that that blinding bright light, that's m that's the way I see, you know, during the day all the time. So without any uh assistance, I I use a a m white cane. I can't see anything. It's it's just so bright. I I I can't um yeah, all I see is just white, even with my eyes closed, it's intensely bright.

SPEAKER_02 19:10

Kind of like Riddick from The Chronicles of Riddick and Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:15

Like polished polished in prison lenses. Yeah, well it's it's good to you know, it's um it's a novelty. Not everyone gets to have a disability where, yeah, under the shadow of darkness your superpower emerges and um everyone else is fumbling around around the campsite and bumping into stuff, and I'm you know, feeling finally like I can see um so the hunting and you know, in the low light conditions and and even just shooting bows in in low light, that's my favourite way to shoot. Um I'm able to see my best. And it's still not great. It doesn't do anything for the acuity. Um How's your distance management? Yeah, I don't shoot like I um I mean it's fun taking long shots, but I've got to see a target, right? So it can be a big target with uh, you know, a big two meter by two meter archery target at the range with a a big white paper cup in the middle of it or something. And yeah, I could probably see that up to, you know, seventy meters and and wouldn't have a clue where yeah, my arrows are going. But um uh What's your effective range? My for hunting, it's gotta be under fifteen, really ten meters is where I'm I'm I'm hoping for, but but always under twenty. Um and yeah, the closer the better.

SPEAKER_02 20:45

Uh that's I mean, that's good ethical shooting, really, when it comes to game.

SPEAKER_00 20:48

Yeah, I think well, I mean the reason I gave you three measurements there is it uh used I thought twenty was was a good um you know, twenty or less. But to be perfectly honest, like I I want to be closer than that. I think fifteen um for me is is where I like to be. So I think it's good.

SPEAKER_02 21:07

You're limited by stalks sometimes, you know, getting into position when it comes to game. People like 20. I I do I'm now solely practicing at 20 because I find that I don't have and I'm trying to go further because I I just so I've got that range. So when I'm estimating without a rangefinder with my eye, I actually I might not be shooting at 25 or 30, but then I know what twenty-five and thirty is in correlation to twenty, because until I get to twenty and I'm like, oh, this feels like twenty. If I'm back any further, I don't have a frame of reference. So I'm shooting at 30 and 35, so I can feel say, Oh, I know what 30 and 35 is. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:44

I said that's just why I'm doing it, but perfect sense. Yeah, I always found shooting long distance helped my close distance. Like it it and exactly that reason, like it does give you that perspective of of the physics of the arrow and the and your bow and how. That setup is working, and um so then you can be better at unknown distances or or estimating distances.

SPEAKER_02 22:09

One thing I just wanted to mention, wanted to ask is uh you said about your colour, we were touching on the colour when you're you had the cones on effective, so you don't get colour so much, but you did say that there is an entire tribe of people that has your condition, is that correct?

SPEAKER_00 22:25

Yeah, there's a fascinating story um by uh a well-known author, um who's passed away now, I think, Oliver Sachs, and he he's written quite a few books. Um very interested in um the brain and and um genetics and things like that, and um he just this the book is called Island of the Colourblind, and uh it's a small, very remote island in the Pacific, um, in the middle of nowhere. Uh I think it's called Pinglap, if I remember, and um and there's an unusual phenomenon on this island where um many of the inhabitants has have this condition, rod monochromatism. Um in Australia the the odds are about one in fifty thousand. Um so there's pretty long odds. So I've never met anyone with my condition except for um I think you know, one lad when I was growing up in primary school, went to a special school for vision impaired kids, and my sibling Emmy has the same condition. I did wonder because I knew you had a sibling, but I wasn't sure what I'm saying. Yeah, I have I have two. I have a brother and and James and my sibling Emmy. And um they have uh rod monochromatism, but James does not. So um the long odds are two people who carry the gene. My parents carry the gene, they don't display the gene, so they had no idea. It's a very rare gene. Um and then the odds of two people getting together. And um having kids with that gene are quite long odds, and then it's a one in four chance that every kid will have condition.

SPEAKER_02 24:16

Both had it. Did they both have a history of it in their families? No, no, no. Wow, so they both had the trait and they just they just doubled the odds or effectively however many times the odds by both having it and passing it.

SPEAKER_00 24:27

Well you have to each parent has to have the gene to pass it on, um, and it's uh they it's they don't display it, so they don't have any vision impairment problems. Um completely unaware of having that gene, and then each child you have has a one in four chance.

SPEAKER_02 24:44

So um Yeah, the the tribe you were saying about, didn't you say the tribe something about?

SPEAKER_00 24:52

Yeah, so Oliver Sachs uh he he travelled to this island with a um with a a scientist, an ophthalmologist, uh I believe, uh, who also had rod monochromatism. And they um just went to investigate why so many people had this condition, and and the theory m is that, you know, um it's a very small island, and there's still a developing culture in terms of technology, so they um they didn't have any assistive technology like we would recognise, like sunglasses, which are very essential for me, or reading glasses, or magnifying glasses, or um I used to read the blackboard at school with a minocular. Um that's the only way to do it. So they didn't have anything like that. So they were able to show them all this technology, but they they believed that a big storm might have decimated the population and and the remaining gene pool had an unusually high just by chance um yeah, presence of this gene. Um and so lots of um people, one in ten apparently, um, you know, with this condition at the time on this island, and um people with this condition would uh were very effective spear fishermen at night. They would go um fishing at night. Uh they would weave these tapestries that looked fairly bland or dull, unless you were colourblind, and then they had a vibrant contrast about them. Interesting. Um yeah, apparently.

SPEAKER_02 26:30

So it's a fascinating story. Did they use dyes or did they just find naturally occurring?

SPEAKER_00 26:35

I don't know, I don't know. Yeah, I'm not sure. But um there's he wrote another story about an artist who was in a car accident um and somehow lost his ability to see colour, had a head injury, maybe a brain injury. Anyway, he came out as a he was a professional visual artist and um emerged from this terrible accident with no colour vision. Um and of course it you know affected him quite profoundly, and he couldn't couldn't make art anymore, he became very unwell, um, couldn't eat most foods, everything looked kind of dirty, or you know, could only eat like plain white yogurt and things like that. Yeah, I thought this was fascinating. But eventually he he adapted and um and talked about how yeah, he he wouldn't choose to go back, uh that it's changed his art and and he sees things that you know were invisible to him before. And so for me, colour is not on my radar at all.

SPEAKER_02 27:44

Do you think that in I was just um I was just imagining back in the day. Do you think that you need some frame of like how did you find out that you even had it? Was it just because the light hurt and then they did an investigation?

SPEAKER_00 27:58

It's because my parents took me to the beach and I just buried my head, you know. I wouldn't couldn't I can't open my eyes in that light. It's so bright. The other way also is you don't see straight ahead when you only see with your rod cells, um, because your cone cells see in detail in the centre of your vision. So to to look at an object, I'm looking to the left and the right, to the left and the right, and you can see that um that uh movement in the eye, especially when you're young. It the muscles haven't refined the movement yet. Um so your eyeballs will be shaking left to right while you're giggling and staring at your mum and really freaked her out. You know, it took a long time to get a proper diagnosis because it's so unusual.

SPEAKER_02 28:46

I can imagine. I was just thinking about back in the day, you know, like back in, you know, like when I say olden times, you know, like pre-medieval times, even like you know, if I'm the the early caveman-y Neolithic days. Um the way that would be perceived, I assume, I'm just making assumptions, in that situation, this natural proclivity to being in the darkness, we would all need people who are night watchmen, so to speak. Like children, we go through this period of so we when we're children, we'd like to sleep early, we sleep through the night. Then as we get to our teens, we a lot of people, I can't remember, it's about 30 or 40 percent, like to then stay up late, and we assume that's for a myriad of factors, but that is natural, and then you lose it again as you get older. You know, you become elderly, you want to sleep at eight o'clock, and you get take naps in the afternoon, so on and so forth. And they think that is so that the the younger people are up in the night so they can do night watching because that was the time that you'd have raiders and animals come by. I would assume that people would push those people or they would appoint those people to be sentries, night watchmen. They would think that that that's actually like the spirit of Woden or something telling them that they need to the light hurts you because the gods have chosen you to be our watchmen.

SPEAKER_00 30:00

Good theory, yeah. I mean um we all gravitate to to where we're comfortable, right? Where we fit in, where we excel. Um Yeah, I When I left high school, I I just made my living as a musician. Just I I play, you know, I leave for work at nine o'clock at night and I come home at four in the morning, and that's my that was my work type of.

SPEAKER_02 30:28

Yeah, well you are you are an amazing talented musician. How did you get into music? You play is it just the piano you play?

SPEAKER_00 30:35

I I sing, I play the piano, um, I play uh ukulele's for the joy of it. Um the great around the campfire.

SPEAKER_02 30:43

When I say just the piano, I mean it's the piano.

SPEAKER_00 30:45

The piano is a beautiful instrument, yeah. I play synths and keyboards and all sorts of stuff, and um and percussion as well. Piano is a percussion instrument after all, and and I love percussion. Um but yeah, music is something I got into very early, um about the same time, about four or five, when my parents also um got me into lots of things to um you know, for a similar reason you were you were just talking about, to to find what where I I was felt comfortable, you know. And I loved sport. Just it wasn't you know, it was just difficult. I I loved playing soccer, but um sometimes the only way to know where the ball is is to hear it bounce, and I just sh you know I was a great slide tackler, man. I would take him out anyway.

SPEAKER_02 31:34

Um Did you choose the piano because you you whites you use a white target, don't you? That's how you can focus it. Yeah, yeah. Isn't that the contrast to the keys, though?

SPEAKER_00 31:43

It was just an instrument that we had one. Um my um parents, yeah, um um they're not musicians but they're musical, and we had um a piano at home um I inherited from great aunt Auntie Beth. And uh yeah, it was just it's it's a great instrument to get very young kids into. Um but at the same time I started martial arts and I loved martial arts. Which martial arts did you uh did you slash do you do? Started with Taekwondo um and then um did through taekwondo I did Hapakido, who's also Korean, um, and ended up doing then them quite a lot uh as a young bloke and and teaching them a bit um when I got older. Um but Wing Chung, Kung Fu um and Brazun Jiu Jitsu and Grappling, th those are great arts for for vision and peace. Brazilian jiu-jitsu.

SPEAKER_02 32:33

There are some spectacular champ like world champions that are um fully blind posts some stuff.

SPEAKER_00 32:39

Well it's not uh probably Brazil and jujitsu and judo are one of the the best examples of yeah, you don't need to see to do those martial arts. Um you really don't. Uh you're not at a disadvantage, you know, with as long as the rule sets are uh you know applicable. Um yeah. But I see artery as a as a martial art and um and that's yeah, I took it up fairly late in life, around 30, but I felt like m my training in martial arts um helped a lot to to understand the the subtlety and the nuance of of finding good technique and form and what my body was doing.

SPEAKER_02 33:20

What was it that first drew you to archery?

SPEAKER_00 33:24

Oh, it's just spectacular weapon. The the traditional bow is just one of the most beautiful objects I think humankind has ever created. Like it's it's so it's just such a perfect um representation of form and function. You look at a long bow, it's so so simple, and yet you n you know, you know what it can do if you use it well. Um it's such a powerful thing and it keeps doing it. That's the magical thing about these weapons, they um the amount of power they put into an arrow and the the accuracy they can achieve and um the tension in those limbs and the string and ever how everything comes together and it just yeah, you'd think how does it keep performing over and over like that? It's just wood and, you know, glass or whatever fancy ones, but it can just be wood.

SPEAKER_02 34:31

They're amazing. It's really stunning that we people don't really realise how much it changed the game and stayed the dominant force when it came to artillery and warfare and hunting and everything for the longest time. It would we'd have to be around for a lot longer for guns to have been had the same mantle for as long a time, if you think about it. We went for a time where we were using spears, a lot of close quarter stuff, you'd have to go out with lots of people, and you can be quite precise, but you telegraph your move so much, it's it's a different ball game. You don't have as many shots. I mean, carrying two dozen arrows or carrying two dozen, like two spears even is is a different kettle of fish. So it is really quite amazing, you know, the a person's ability to not have to rely on a community so much. One man can have a family and they can branch out and it change the landscape of how people were living, because you can go out and effectively accurately kill game once you're proficient, much better. You're not as reliant on having a big hunting party going after a larger game, you know, you can f feasibly feed an entire family with this amazing new tool.

SPEAKER_00 35:40

Yeah, well, I mean that also blew my mind when I've discovered that um you know, I I went looking for for traditional bows, and of course the first ones I I really found commercially available near me were Bear, Fred Bear bows. Classic legend. And then I thought, who is this Fred Bear character? And I looked into him more and and you see the same bows um taking out elephants and and polar bears. I mean, this was a time when a conservationist like Fred Bear could also occasionally hunt a polar bear, and that was totally fine. Um things have changed, I suppose, but like it was a different time. It's a different time.

SPEAKER_02 36:22

I mean, if you look at Charles Darwin, all he really effectively did initially was take two of every animal. He was like an evil knower, basically. He killed two of everything and brought it back from the on the beagle. He was uh well alive in a different time.

SPEAKER_00 36:35

Yes, exactly. Um but I was impressed that these simple looking traditional bows had that kind of power. And um yeah, and that's what that's what really drew me to it. I thought I would love to know how to use this weapon. Um and it just felt like another thing, you know. I I feel like um music is one of those things. I I want to know how to play music because it's a good thing to do. It's good round the campfire, it's good, you know, we have a barbecue, it's it's um I want to know how to shoot a bow because it's a good thing to know. It's fun and it's um for me and uh you know maybe there's an element of with my eyesight that I I wanted to um you know it's a it's a it's a wonderful feeling to to be accurate with such a simple weapon. Um I didn't want to use sights. I wanted to figure it out in more instinctively, although these days I I do um do some pretty consistent sort of gap shooting uh approach and um uh but I still feel like yeah, I'm I'm not trying to put a pin on a on a tiny point because I can't see that well. So so the sh the long shaft of the arrow, looking down the shaft, I paint my points my broadheads white cool, yeah. So I can so I can pick 'em up.

SPEAKER_02 38:15

I've just thought of doing that on the back of my broadheads 'cause I've got into gap shooting rather than instinctive. Is that what you're talking about, say the back edge of the broadhead?

SPEAKER_00 38:25

Yeah. So you can have that for me it's yeah, it's gotta be fairly obvious. Um and yeah, it's it's been it's lovely to be able to reach out and whack something a fair distance away with accuracy and and think, well, I don't yeah, I don't know if I could do that in any other way, uh weirdly, than with a traditional bow. Like I think that's where I'm probably best. If I was putting a pin on a point with a compound bow or yeah, it's too um I could get that wrong so easily not seeing the detail I see, but the simple sight picture of looking down your riser and your arrow and and you know, your the amount of form and technique you need to be consistent also really appealed to me because um that reminded me of martial arts and it reminded me of music too. There's so many shared skills in what I what I do. I I I like to start new things all the time, but I I rarely feel like I'm starting from the beginning because from music I and martial arts I already understood what slow practice mastering the basics felt like and uh you know that really appeals to me.

SPEAKER_02 39:52

So it falling in love with the process and knowing that it's a journey and not just having this mentality of Right, there's this thing, I'm gonna do this thing, and then as soon as I do it, then like I in martial arts, for instance, the idea of doing traditional, like a lot of karate, you know, you're like you get a black belt in two years, and then I meet guys, they're like, Yeah, I'm a black belt. So I I did I started karate and I've mastered karate, and it's like, well, where do you get it? Yeah, you've moved on. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 40:18

Yeah. Traditional archery is not like that. The piano is not like that. You're not like, well, I've I finally learnt the piano this weekend. It's taken me ages, but I've learned it. Now I'm moving on to the oboe. I find you know you'll never you'll never figure it out. You'll never stop being challenged by it. And archery is definitely one of those things. I mean, traditional archery. I don't even like, yeah, it's technically if I'm practicing, I'm I'm working at something, I can see my scores getting higher. I can see myself improving. But overall, I don't really know if I'm getting any better or not.

SPEAKER_02 40:54

Like, it's the only thing that keeps me going, yeah, is that that not knowing and seeing someone. It's just like brutal.

SPEAKER_00 41:00

It's a brutal um pursuit. You you just it um you have to love it, and you have to love the process because you see it all the time. People say, Man, I'm just about ready to give this bloody thing up. Like, I I just getting worse and worse. I'm like, yeah. Isn't it great? Don't you love it? Yeah. Don't you love how hard it is? You know?

SPEAKER_02 41:23

Yeah. So so I've seen someone as well who's that like leagues ahead of ahead of you. Like watching old Howard Hill stuff. You know? Oh yeah. Beautiful girls, and he's just smiling at them and just knocking arrow after arrow and just what a legend.

SPEAKER_00 41:38

Watching um Jeff Kavanaugh sh shoot out arrows, shoot out candles on swinging ropes. Hills out of the sky and Yeah, that really that really um affected me watching s finding something so hard and then um seeing people just be awesome at it. It was um it was reassuring to see it could be done. Um but yeah, I I think it'll always be something uh yeah, I'll just enjoy the pursuit of and and as we get older our bodies might start to give in um a bit and you know but I uh I'm so grateful for finding coach Tom Clum.

SPEAKER_02 42:30

You did, I saw you'd uh you were Tom recently.

SPEAKER_00 42:34

Yeah, he came back uh that was third or fourth um solid archery clinic, a weekend long, the the one I've done with uh all the lads and um it's just amazing to have that um technique to come back on. Uh it it means I I'm not as active archery-wise as I would like to be uh at the moment, and sometimes it just happens, it's life and other things get in the way. But um to know that I don't have to reinvent everything when I take in a break because I'm teaching myself and I'm, you know, and constantly trying new things, and um I take a break and I forget what works and I come back and I have to figure it all out again.

SPEAKER_02 43:21

So what is your shot process and how is it being affected by Tom's teachings? How do you go about practicing learning?

SPEAKER_00 43:28

I think the one of the best things is understanding physically, biomechanically, what's happening to your body when you shoot well. Um when it and and that will give you longevity as well. So hopefully I can keep it up long into my old age, but um yeah, ironing out those biomechanical issues, um getting rid of all the myths um and yeah, just just creating a solid price.

SPEAKER_01 44:00

process um and and the mental game on top of that.

SPEAKER_00 44:09

Um and to be honest, like that uh it really blew my mind this this year um at at the solid artery mechanics uh clinic. Uh it the mental component was incredible. Um there was a lot of new stuff Coach Tom was talking about. Uh but it just illustrated so beautifully the um the connection between artery and uh and the way our brains work and and or you know um work against us um and and how that is relevant through s in so many other aspects of life when we're faced with high pressure moments. Um and yeah Coach Tom brought uh some incredible insights from trauma counselling um when we're faced with these fight or flight responses and that's the very kind of panic that you get when you're suffering target panic. Um I'm going for a little little issue myself at the moment. It's brutal uh yeah and it happens to the best of us um but i there's you can manage it there's um but it's just the most fascinating thing. Um it's where the different kinds of triggers can really help um but even then you your brain will get conditioned to to things and it will always try and anticipate um you know what it knows is coming.

SPEAKER_02 45:50

It's got an aversion to anything that looks like trauma.

unknown 45:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:54

So anything that's there's a big there's a lot of energy it's right near your face. If you ever give a bow to a new hunter, they're like leaning away as much or a new archer should I say leaning away and they're just everything they just know it's coming, know it's coming. And even though you get accustomed to it, your brain still knows all that's going on.

SPEAKER_00 46:09

They know it's go the going the other way, but it's still Yeah and even if it's not the you know the physical sudden decompression of and and all that energy being released by your bow, that that's one thing. But knowing that that arrow's gonna fly out there and thinking oh I'm gonna miss the target, everyone's gonna see it or you know, that kind of pressure also it it plays with you and um uh yeah I just f absolutely fascinated by by that sort of stuff.

SPEAKER_02 46:39

So the What what uh sorry, I was just gonna wonder I was just I was wondering and I didn't want to forget what kind of poundage are you drawing?

SPEAKER_00 46:47

Not I I I mean I love low poundage bows. They're they're a joy to shoot. So I mostly shoot thirty-five forty pounds um but I love a 30 pound bow too you know um I'd call that a medium poundage bow. Right. I I've had a bit of a wrist injury for a while.

SPEAKER_02 47:09

I'm dealing with a with one as well myself. Yeah it's so on.

SPEAKER_00 47:13

So on my string hand this one um and so I've really had to to drop the poundage recently um but forty to fifty forty five to fifty is sort of where I would hunt at I don't don't have um much experience over that. Maybe I have a few bows that are 55.

SPEAKER_02 47:32

I'm pushing 60. I'm 60 and change but I'm got no intention of going further.

SPEAKER_00 47:37

I don't I mean it's it's cool and everything shooting 70 plus pounds but the other thing with the way I shoot is I like to take my time especially when I get to f to my anchor. As as everyone should yeah yeah I mean some people are quicker but for me honestly I need time to compose the site picture to even find, you know um yeah my gap and and um so to be comfortable at that full draw for as long as possible without starting to collapse or or get too fatigued, I I feel m way more comfy with a um slightly lower jaw rate. I mean this is especially if I'm hunting like the and the shot is very critical. I want to be able to take my time back there. I don't want to be shaking trying to hold 60 pounds or anything that's too heavy.

SPEAKER_02 48:31

I mean there is a thing that I'm also so close as well like I short don't really need the extra poundage. Goats and pigs don't really need it. I find most people they aren't quite back. You know they're not in alignment they don't they're not using their back muscles to pull and then I think the the higher the poundage the more you consciously or otherwise don't have the confidence of going all the way back and and hitting and actually putting the weight on.

SPEAKER_00 48:56

The proper technique if you're a little overbowed because you just instinctively muscle your way into um into full draw um what you feel is full draw um to you know to draw in a um an arc rather than straight back um so your arrow is off target I'm left-handed so my arrow is off to the right you know pointing to the right of the target and I'm drawing in an arc and as I come back I'm sinking my my anchor back and my elbow is inside the string and I'm nice and you know my skeleton is aligned so it's holding a lot of that weight but to to get into that position you're not um yeah if it's too much weight you're really muscling with your arm and your shoulder and your bicep. And it's just what happens when we, you know, if you're doing bicep curls, this is a great I mean Tom has just got the best coaching analogies and um if you're doing bicep curls on your um dumbbells and you're getting to the end of your rep, you know, limit the last few reps, you're gonna put a bit of momentum in there, aren't you? Instinctively without thinking about it, you're gonna push those, you know swing them up a little bit more with your back and your butt and not really using the right muscle group. And that's kind of similar thing that's happening when you're overbowed. So I think to feel it to get it right first um you need to to shoot low. Plus on a low poundage bow the the string is under much less tension so y you can see issues with your st your crappy release so much better with with a low poundage bow. You can feel it.

SPEAKER_02 50:52

Sure observing arrow flight as well is is another advantage.

SPEAKER_00 50:58

Just exactly everything shows up more obviously um and you just have to have a really nice release for it to to make nice groups at distance with a low pouch bow.

SPEAKER_02 51:11

I think I might have to I'm probably gonna get some limbs that are a bit lower. I'm I'm in a good spot I like I feel comfortable at 60 I shoot much high heavier with my compound I've got like 70 plus pounds is different different game. But being out of the game because I put my trad bow away and then I just shot compound and it was just out at a hunting trip everyone else was shooting trad. You know when in Rome it's uh it's trebuchet's not cannons so I thought I'd I'd bring that with me as well and then I went out with it and I thought I'd have a bit of practice to get myself back in and just you know this is what it is.

SPEAKER_00 51:47

Yeah yeah exactly it's um unforgiving that way you've got to keep up your form um I mean I I have a pair of border archery limbs from Scotland um on my bear riser and they're um they're kind of uh I feel a little cheaty because they um they feel a little bit like a compound bow. They have a let-off to them um they're super recurved limbs fibre limbs and and as you get the full draw yeah it really levels off and um makes it uh divine to hold back there but they have really fast lovely lovely limbs.

SPEAKER_02 52:26

They are they're beautiful very art nouveau in the style with those super recurve limbs. I've never had one I've had a go on one before and a lot of recurve shooters because I've got a a reflex deflex long bow which stores the energy well you do you are pulling most of the way all the way through the shot cycle and a lot of recurve shooters do boast that they prefer it because you do get a little bit of let off with the recurve limbs quite noticeable on the border limbs yeah I I love them they're very stable really fast. So what did you use for your goat hunt?

SPEAKER_00 52:58

Let us tell us about your uh that was uh recent goat hunting adventure um that was is it that guy up on the on the wall there?

SPEAKER_02 53:06

That is that is the goat yeah yeah we are coming to you actually delicious um sorry recorded today from the Big Smoke Melbourne town we're in a we're in a lovely dimly lit room with all it needs is a bit of piano in the background and some smoke and cigars on the table.

SPEAKER_00 53:21

Okay it is lucky I've got any lights on at all.

SPEAKER_02 53:25

The ambiance is wonderful.

SPEAKER_00 53:26

So sorry you're saying the goat? Yeah the the goat's from Jack's um experience with Jack and uh I think I was using a um a vintage uh bear mag riser, the short one, the A version um and uh the short limbs some forty-five I think pound limbs um but I love the little setup of that old school um it's from the 70s um magnesium riser uh with a big little hunting stabilizer on it all it's a cute little vintage setup and it worked very great legs very short bow to it's um 56 inches um tip to tip and yeah really manoeuvrable um so yeah that's that was a fun one uh so what happened let us know how did you uh go about what happened that was the stalk and what's yeah we stalked a bit um Jack called some goats in which was hilarious because his goat call is something to behold. I'm not even what I'm talking about I do yeah I've actually I managed to call one in myself you did I did I'm more than one I I called a few in the I want to go next time um but yeah and then uh we We tried a few different he he wanted to show me a few different techniques so we did a kind of um we tried to rush a group and just storm in and um that was great because yeah I needed a bit of help getting around the salt bushes and avoiding the um all the potholes and things. Uh and so yeah Jack was guiding me through there but we didn't have much luck that way but we ended up just stalking from salt bush to salt bush and and um found a big group um and yeah big Billy with with some nannies keeping him occupied and um uh yeah it was a good shot in the end um and I was really pleased that it that was quick and it was a quick double lung shot and um that was my first yeah it's a it's a big decent I thought it was decent size.

SPEAKER_02 55:52

He's a beautiful bully he's got a really nice set of horns on him. Good he's in full call well he's in the first stages of curl he's got his first call I mean that would be I don't know what the boon rating on it would be. He's not the largest at the base but as far as the length his his his length over he's uh he's got a and he's got a beautiful curl on his and it would it would score quite high I think but they're probably 27. They're they're decent, they're strong. Yeah I reckon they're they're pretty good.

SPEAKER_00 56:17

Well he he was delicious and um that's important. My friend uh cooked him up and um yeah the butchering was was really amazing. We we caught another couple I took another couple small ones over that weekend too um uh and yeah it was it was really amazing.

SPEAKER_01 56:38

The butchering was was fascinating.

SPEAKER_00 56:41

Um probably yeah one of the most profound parts of it all I I couldn't imagine the thought of yeah hunting without also experiencing that of course yeah.

SPEAKER_02 56:57

Yeah it's uh something which is underappreciated and underutilised but the actual the goat itself I think is a is a beautiful interesting like resilient majestic animal. Yeah yeah hilarious also yeah also hilarious yeah they really are they're very funny I mean they they've got some serious character. Yeah yeah apparently it's one of the most um widely eaten red meats in the world because um unfortunately for the goat no one holds them particularly sacred uh apparently that's what I've heard there I mean the thing is is they are so resilient so it doesn't you don't have to have much they'll live anywhere you'll have any other animals they all they'll live there with m more resilience they're incredibly resilient. We had a tendency to chuck them onto islands so we can sustain ourselves so the car all through the Caribbean a lot of places where people were displaced or where people were if it was either pigs or goats they generally left there. So a lot of cultures all through the small islands in the South Pacific and Hawaii and places like that it becomes a staple diet and then that spreads and they're they're they're wonderfully resilient as long as you're good at stewing them I've actually got some curried goat at home to go back to oh yeah some of my favorites which is like traditional Caribbean curried gum. Oh yeah cool I absolutely love it. It's definitely the way forward. So yeah they're uh super super popular. A lot of cuisines now it's their staple. You know you go to places in places in Africa and Asia not through the Caribbean.

SPEAKER_00 58:29

Well it's it's super tasty. Anthony from Little X he um is more experienced in prepping the meat. So once we pushed it, he took it home and aged it for a bit on you know under um a towel on the on the kitchen bench for a few days and um it came back and didn't you could not detect a goatey odour or gamey taste at all.

SPEAKER_02 58:54

The younger ones are arguably much better if you don't like the flavour of it, the game of it so so to speak. But uh yeah it can be a bit stringy if you don't give it a bit of age. Cooks out all right the younger ones do it can be quite tough. Okay that was yours was it was just divine yeah yeah curry as well more of a um uh a masaman style diet curry yeah I think if I remember correctly it's very common here to go through uh the Chinese sorry the Indian restaurants and find goat on the menu Himalayan as well there were lots of people turning over to goats because the goat meat cost was very very high so people were actually transferring especially in the the drier areas above Goida's line they were going into goats because of the prices unfortunately um in America they stopped using it for their prison systems which is one of the main places that they were going to but the the Middle Eastern they import them a lot as long as we stay on good terms with them the prices can go up quite considerably they love goats yeah um they're actually from the Iranian Turkish kind of area there that's where they originate from the the animal that the domestic goat came from obviously because they're they're as much those original animals as dogs are wolves but they're still very similar and very obviously resilient. So over there you know in Iran and po like Persia places in that kind of cuisine is very prevalent and they do wonders with it. I mean certain spices that comes through beautifully but I am a massive fan it was a lot of my hunting originally especially was goats and I've got a real fondness for them. I think they're really spectacular.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:36

Yeah well it it was it was a fun trip and um I look forward to getting back there.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:42

Sorry I you were kind to invite me when last time you went and I wasn't um we have a mission Andy we have a mission we are going to be hunting by the full moon we're gonna be full moon hunting aren't we?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:55

Oh yeah that well now that would be special.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:57

Yeah. Ideally the summer moon it's the brightest of the moons could be too bright summer could be too bright by sunny I that is that a thing I I didn't think of moon tanning.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:08

Have you ever gone moon tanning I haven't where you get the best you know hue uh glow. Yeah tan by the moon. So we'll pencil it in. Let's do it. Let's do it.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:21

Because I'd love that um it was a good moon last time you I was there it was that's looking at night I was thinking and this here's the thing it actually can get so brilliant I didn't realise how bright the moon got until living out in the bush and going to the bathroom at night under under a full moon of the summer. You go outside and it's like when you know when when you watch a film and they've done night for day so they just put a filter on and you can tell it's the daytime. It was like that I'm like I don't know if I can actually sleep with this going on.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:48

Crisp shadows and yeah it's it's interesting isn't it? And when it's when there's no moon or in between the moon coming up and the sun going down it's bloody dark. Pitch. Yeah and that's something that's um yeah take you by surprise if you're um not not used to being out of the bush sometimes even me I'm like wow it's really dark. I mean we all need light to see but um I love the fact that yeah you're you're in touch with those cycles when you're you're out in the bush and um last time I was at Jack's I remember the full moon was out as well and I took some photos and Yeah it was beautiful.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:31

Indeed. So what colour was that goat? Did you you didn't keep the pelt, did you?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:35

No, I don't know what happened to that. Um it was a a white one. That's the other useful thing about goats um unlike samba deer they're a lot easier for me to spot.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:49

I think we should get it there's a big white goat. Yeah fallow or a Sitka maybe something with white spots so you can pick a spot.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:56

Yeah yeah I think the bunnies and the samba safe around me for you know unless I yeah stumble into one but um you never know. Never know. Under the right moonlight, you know um we might might be on.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:10

I think that might be perfect in fact because those kind of animals do really glow up under that night don't they? Really it it bounces off of them as you say it casts the most crisp shadows.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:20

Yeah it's well it's lovely and soft I mean I just um my favourite light I think is is just before dawn that that glow, you know, the sun is yet to arrive and to see the first glow. And there's a beautiful soft soft light and great to be out hiking, getting to your spot. It would be amazing to see that through your eyes what that must be like to Well it's about yeah it's a comfy place to be sometimes I yeah I forget I need to go back and get my contacts in and my son is on before the sun actually comes up and yeah get a bit stranded sometimes but wonderful.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:03

Well we will definitely do that. Let's pencil that in this arrange of time and we'll go and do that hunt for sure. Deal. Andy mate you are such a a wonderful nice warmhearted guy and it's lovely to have someone like that in the hunting community so genuine kind of you to say Caleb thank you very much. Pure observation you just are such a a an honest and open soul and it's a really nice because hunters can get brandished very quickly very easily to be certain things given the nature of the endeavour. But uh yeah you're a wonderful advocate for the for the cause mate much appreciated Kaelin thank you so much for talking to me and it's been a pleasure we will do this again after um the we become the hunters of the Summer Moon. Ah I look forward to that yeah yeah lots of tales to tell thanks buddy thanks for having me Kaelin thanks very much we hope you enjoyed the show wherever you are whatever time of day it might be good morning good afternoon good evening and good hunting