Red Dog Run Amuck

Caleb Holden is a passionate hunter who uses an array of dog breeds to hunt foxes, pigs and more. Today on the show we talk about the impact of the red fox, how to hunt with dogs and what breeds excel. Today's wild take is dogs are carnivores. 

Transcript

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SPEAKER_03 0:01

Whether you're tracking, chasing, or getting ready to bail. Dog and gun coffee. Fuel your adventure.

SPEAKER_00 0:10

G'day, I'm Caleb Holden, and this is WildTikes.

SPEAKER_01 0:21

Today on the show we have the conductor of the canines, the maestro of the Mongrels, our designated dog man, Caleb Holden. It's time to let the dogs out. Mate, thank you so much for talking to me. I have followed you for some time now. Uh you are a specialist in a branch of hunting, didn't I have hold dear to my heart, and that is hunting with dogs.

SPEAKER_00 1:02

Yeah, no, it's uh it's definitely a good sport. I uh definitely wouldn't be who I am without it. Um and you specialise in particular in the hunting of foxes. Yeah, well, it's definitely my forte. It's what I what I like to do. Um there's definitely a lot of blokes out there that would probably be be heads and tails better than me, but they're just blokes that you would never see. They're just old fellas that have knocked around their farm for a long time, and yeah, it definitely takes a lot of time to learn everything as you're seeing today. There's so many little tips and tricks and been able to read the land and read what your dogs are thinking just by the way they're acting, and um yeah, it definitely definitely takes a long time.

SPEAKER_01 1:47

For sure. Well, this is actually a pack out. We've just been on a hunt, and we'll get into that a bit more later. But why exactly do you hunt foxes? What drew you to it?

SPEAKER_00 1:56

Uh well, it sort of all started back when I was a young fella hunting out uh the farm, our family farm with my father, and while we just hunted a few rabbits and that, every time we seen a fox, like it it definitely changed dad's demeanour. Like when I was a young fella, his demeanour changed, like, oh, there's a fox, like, and then nothing else mattered, like we had to get that fox. And I never really a hundred percent knew why it was like that, but once now I've gotten older I've realized the absolute amount of destruction that they actually cause. Um, like not just to native wildlife, also to um like stock and people's chickens and even just uh birds, like they'll break into people's bird cages and kill their birds and like they're valued pets and some of them worth a lot of money, that then they do not discriminate anything that flaps around um or anything small and fuzzy, that they'll kill it. Like they don't necessarily eat everything either.

SPEAKER_01 2:59

So You were telling me an interesting story about uh some of the local sheep farmers, some of their lambs.

SPEAKER_00 3:04

Yeah, so sometimes when the lambs are young, they will be able to take a lamb, or if there's one that's not quite uh going too well and he might die anyway, they'll they'll come on and pick him away. But once they get to a certain size, they it's a lot harder for them to take the lamb. So what I've seen uh in some places is the fox will come over when the lambs sort of venture on away from mum, the fox will come in and pin that lamb down and actually take their tongue out of their mouth, like remove it from their mouth. And uh the only evidence you see of this happening is the lambs either die and they've got blood soaked into their wool, or if you're unlucky enough to see it, they'll still be walking around actively bleeding from the mouth without a tongue. Crazy. Yeah, it's pretty bad. And um then if a ew is lambing and she's on their side and having trouble lambing, the foxes, even on uh like in really hard uh times when food is scarce, they will come in and um eat the backside out of that ew while she's lambing, which is yeah, really uh really not nice.

SPEAKER_01 4:16

That's insane. And there's also quite a detriment to native wildlife.

SPEAKER_00 4:21

Yeah, so that's one thing I did want to touch on. Um a lot of people hear foxes are bad for the native wildlife, but my purpose is to tell people what natives are actually extinct or only survived on islands around coastal Australia because the foxes have just absolutely w wiped them out. So the the scary bit is Australia's native mammals were basically built around avoiding eagles, snakes, dingoes, not a s not a sneaky fast predator hunting at night by scent and sound like a fox. A lot of natives literally freeze instead of bolting, which works against native predators but not against foxes. Um and I've got a bit of a list here of a few of the animals that are extinct or survived by small populations in isolated areas. So we have the lesser bilbi that is extinct. Foxes and cats together absolutely clean them up through central Australia. The pig-footed uh the pig-footed bandigoot extinct, a tiny little fella, easy target for foxes. Eastern hare wallaby, extinct on mainland largely due to foxes. The Tulac Wallaby um sorry, just bring that back up. The Tulac wallaby is extinct. Foxes hit them hard in South Australia and Western Victoria. The Western Bard Bandicoot, nearly wiped out on mainland, survived mainly on islands without foxes. Um and then you have the numbat, not extinct, but foxes nearly finished them off before baiting programs helped. And you have the woiley, massive crashes linked to foxes. Bilby still hanging on, but foxes are one of the main threats. Uh the quokka, mainland populations got smashed by foxes. Island populations survived better because foxes couldn't reach them. And if no one knows what the quakker is, it's uh where those smiling photos of that little uh little rat looking thing comes from from Rotnes Island, so that's all over the internet. Those little little smiling fellas just get drilled by foxes. Uh then you've got the bridled nail-tail wallaby, nearly extinct, fox predation a major factor. Eastern uh batong. Then you have the booty, the burrow and batong, uh gone from the mainland for ages except reintroductions in fenced areas. Uh Eastern Qual, extinct uh extinct on the mainland uh Australia, survives in Tasmania where foxes never established. Uh the brush-tailed rabbit rat, huge declines from foxes and cats. Golden bandicoot disappeared from most mainland areas uh largely due to foxes and cats. Then you have the Maler, a rufous hare wallaby almost wiped out after fox incursions. And the black footed rock wallaby, foxes hit the populations hard, especially juveniles. And then you have the mallefowl, if anyone's heard of those, they're quite rare. They're not extinct, but foxes raid nests and smash breeding success. The long footed potteroo, fox predation a major ongoing threat. Gilbert's potteroo, one of the rarest mammals on earth, foxes nearly finished them all. Western qual vanished from most of mainland Australia after fox spread. Greater Bilby survives only in fragments and fenced reserves in many spots. And the crescent nail-tailed wallaby extinct with uh foxes believed to be the major driver. So and that's only a fraction of the animals in Australia that the foxes nearly wiped out, and they're going to continue to do it. Foxes are estimated to kill millions of native animals every night across Australia. Uh, in heaps of areas when fox control starts, like the 1080 baiting, which I do oppose, uh, species like numbats, batongs, and mallefowl suddenly rebounded hard, which shows uh how massive the impact is.

SPEAKER_01 8:38

That's a that's an insane list. And when people really want to prove or show that they are conservationists and hunters, if you go out and you hunt for food, you are doing wonders for conservation by taking deer. You are. But the truth is if you really want to be a hunting conservationist, you have to go after the predators. That's insane. Yep. Yep. What an insane list of animals, um, loads of beautiful native wildlife, and people want to turn a blind eye because foxes are cute. But also people think that foxes are solitary creatures. Do you find a lot of foxes living in the same habitats?

SPEAKER_00 9:13

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. People seem to think that they're they're solitary, but they're definitely not. They work in very close capacity to each other, um, especially during breeding seasons. They definitely come in together, but even outside of breeding seasons, because they have a a litter of foxes. They grow up in the same area and they pretty much just all establish themselves very closely in the same area. So when you're hunting during the summer seasons, you seem to find pockets of them, they're all coming from the same area. Um that's sort of how I find their dens where where I where they're living. So I sit see I go out and I see them and I sort of just see where they congregate, and that's when I can find where they're actually coming from. And then the following season I can go back and uh take out the parents that way as well. Um, and then as you've seen today, that uh that beaver pile that we done, there was two foxes in there, and that was obviously a male and a female, but we're still quite a few months away from breeding season, so they're already working together.

SPEAKER_01 10:15

What do you what would you say is a good night? How many are you gonna are you looking at teaking on a on a on an averagely good night?

SPEAKER_00 10:21

Uh probably averagely you'll get about ten, I'd say. Ten. Yeah, most nights when you go out um once the uh paddocks have been cut and harvested. Um, but yeah, I have had some crazy nights up to yeah, 20 to 30. And like you look at some of these guys that hunt in New South Wales and they just use rifles out of buggies and they clean up all those young foxes, like they they get nearly a hundred a night in some of those places.

SPEAKER_01 10:48

How uh large an area are you talking and uh how long of a venture for that many?

SPEAKER_00 10:55

Well, it definitely changes all the time. Like obviously as a hunter you know some hunts are better than others and it's just underlying factors, weather and all that. But uh sometimes you could drive for maybe an hour and not see anything, and then you could come into one paddock and get seven foxes, and especially around bushland, there's a lot more foxes around, but they're a lot harder to get because if you're trying to shoot them, soon as you rock up, they disappear and you'll never get another shot at them, and they're the ones that are doing all the damage. The ones that are smart, same as you if you're a deer hunter or a pig hunter, you know those smart old animals, you've got to do something special or they gotta slip up to actually get them. And foxes are the same. Those ones that people go out and shoot. Um people go out and shoot, and they uh they're just walking around the paddock. You're not gonna find those really problematic foxes just walking across the paddock.

SPEAKER_01 11:49

The educated fox. Now, I've actually got I was having this conversation with a friend recently who hunts, but he doesn't hunt uh like foxes or anything. And he was talking we were actually talking about mountain lions, and he said to me, Do you know what I don't like? I don't like the use of dogs. He said, Just shoot it. Just shoot it. Now, in the instance of mountain lions, they actually give out about 10 to 100 times more tags than the Intentiville, because they're incredibly hard. Why is it that you use dogs? Can't you just go out and shoot them?

SPEAKER_00 12:16

Yeah, so that's one thing that uh definitely pops up all the time, and as you've seen today, those two foxes that we got today, you would never have gotten those without dogs. Um so a major part of the use of dogs is uh your terrier work. So you find those foxes where they live, you get the foxes out and you catch them that way. Um, and the reason why I use the running dogs as well is I I love my dogs. I want to keep them as safe as I can all the time. Um, and you imagine trying to shoot a fox that's bolting out of a pile and you don't know where your terrier is, and you're probably going to lose that fox if you take so much caution. So you have those runners there. Um and time and time again, times that I have used shooters that I trust, you push a creek and you have the sitters sitting at a certain point to catch anything that runs. And we're using rouser shots, we're firing um just real light load shotgun shells just to create enough noise and yelling and carrying on, and all of a sudden one of the dogs will get interested and run down into the kabungi right next to where we were just shooting these rouses, and then a fox comes out. If you did not have those dogs, those fox wouldn't have moved. And yeah, without the dogs, you would never have gotten those foxes. And every time those foxes come out, they're always old foxes, massive teeth, scars on their face, they've been around the traps. I couldn't even imagine how much stuff they've actually killed. Um and yeah, and then if you uh walk in the creek and one bus out and starts running across the paddock because he knows something's up, he's getting out of the creek and he's going across the paddock. You could possibly radio someone to go out and chase him, and then that just gets a bit dangerous. But you just sort of walk up onto the bank and you just whistle a dog over and he runs out, one out, and it's uh it's it's definitely the best option is firearms and dogs working together in a safe manner. I always use the dogs because I hunt mostly alone and just with myself and a gun and on foot, I can't get close to buggerole. So the dogs definitely do it. And as you can see, when we were walking around today, we were just walking along talking, and then as soon as I was reading the dogs, I could just say, Well, we're about to be on here, and sure enough, then here comes a fox. So yeah, it was um yeah, it was pretty good today.

SPEAKER_01 14:34

It was indeed. So what kind of dogs do you work?

SPEAKER_00 14:37

Um anything with a bit of sight hound and bully or pit bull in it, you definitely need that tenacity uh from the bull terrier or a pit bull. I haven't really delved much into the pit bull greyhounds. I do have a cattahula pit bull greyhound, but he's used for um pigs. Uh he's a dedicated pig dog. But um any of your sight hounds, you have like your stag hounds, your deer hounds, and all that, they all work well. It's just finding the right ones that know how to do the job. It's just the same as getting a um a kelpie to work sheep, like some just don't don't have it. Like you can train a dog to do just about everything except have heart.

SPEAKER_01 15:16

That's interesting. Um so you think the use of bull terrier is pretty essential just to get that gameness?

SPEAKER_00 15:22

Yeah, yeah. You the the stags, um, like the Australian stag hound that's been bred here and uh like your lurches back from England and that, they're they're all quite they're all quite good, but from what my personal experience using these bull terrier or pit bull greyhounds, they just seem to have a lot more drive and you can put a number of foxes through them before they start to deteriorate and break down. And my experience is these bull terrier greyhounds they seem to mature a lot quicker. So when you're trying to get these dogs, some of these stag hounds and deer hound breeds, they take two years to mature. Where with these bull terrier or pit bull greyhounds, you get to about six months and they're already switching on. Um and normally by twelve months, if they're not a dog, they're not gonna be one. But uh, you normally know fairly quick. Um but yeah, yeah, definitely the bull bully greys and pity grays is where where I'm at for like a running dog. And the bull terries do have a lot of brains as well, and um, as you've seen with Frank today, he he has quite a good nose and he's able to find those foxes and tell me where they are, and um it's really good. You you might be at a beaver pile and the fox might have slipped out, and you can just tell by the way he's acting, it's gone or if it's still in there, um, and whether to move on or yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:46

Yeah, it's interesting because in England there's a lot of bull going into dogs. I used to have a he was uh half and half greyhound whip it crossed with a working line border collie. He was a great dog. Um and some of the old boys, I had friends who were old boys, and they would always swear by not putting teeth, that's what they refer to as teeth, not putting teeth into a dog. Too much tooth makes them hard on the animal, and they reckon it's not necessary, you know. You just need a good collie for the agility, mix it with a good sight hound, and you're ready to go. But I think you're right in what you're saying. In in Australia, it's a different climate, you know, you need a dog with a bit more tenacity.

SPEAKER_00 17:26

Yeah, yeah, you definitely need a dog that can um do a lot. Like those uh those finer type dogs are great catch dogs, but in my experience they don't they're not able to do it as often and for as long. Um where these these bull greyhounds like Frank is, he's got a lot more solidness to his legs and he seems to just be able to be knocked out and run through logs and have no problems and just never take skin off and he he's just durable. So I suppose that's what I'm looking for, durable. Yeah, that's that's another big thing about having um proper dogs is you've got to be able to know when to remove a dog that doesn't quite make the cut. Like you've got to be able to send it to a pet home or uh or whatever, because um as long as you've got dude good dogs, it is humane. When you have dogs that don't give it their all, that's when it isn't humane. I don't want to prolong that thing's suffering, even though it is a pest and whatever. I don't want to prolong suffering and make it look terrible. I want it to be done as quick and efficiently as possible.

SPEAKER_01 18:30

Yeah, good stuff.

SPEAKER_00 18:31

Now uh let's have a little rundown. What was the team we had up with us today? So Frank. Yeah, so we had uh Frank, he's my main boy, he does pigs as well. Uh he's a bull terrier whippet. Um he he's quite large compared to what you'd think something with Whippet uh in it would be like. Um, and then we had Todd, who comes from one of my best mates' father's line, who is a bull terrier pharaoh hound. And he he's probably my best dog, but he's riddled with injuries at this moment. Um, but yeah, he's he's very good. He's he's very hard.

SPEAKER_01 19:06

Um you'd never have been able to tell that he was injured. He was all over it.

SPEAKER_00 19:10

Oh, when he's walking around the house trying to make me feel sorry for him, you might think he's not in a good way, but it's just because he wants to get lit inside on the couch next to the fire. Uh and then we had Merv as well. Um, he is Frank is his father, and he went over a deer hound greyhound.

SPEAKER_03 19:28

Rough coat.

SPEAKER_00 19:28

Yeah, so he's quite shaggy, he's got that orange shaggy fur. He was a late starter. As soon as I put a little bit of that stag blood into something I had, I just noticed straight away. It took 10 months before he turned on.

SPEAKER_03 19:39

Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 19:40

Um and then we had Todd's son with us as well, where Todd went over Frank's auntie. Um, he's only six months, he was just out for a bit of an excursion just to see what uh his job's gonna be, a bit of work experience for him. Um so he had a good look and he wasn't um wasn't frightened by anything going on. He was always there running around, and I think he had a good day. He's pretty buggered now, but yeah, he should um he should turn on in the next couple of months. And the style of the show? Uh, the style of the show, Little Vixie. Um, yeah, so she is a Jack Russell Parsons um from a line out of Horsham from Beaver Wallerman. Uh those that line of terrier actually uh way, way back, originates uh from the UK. It it was there was an import dog brought over uh and it was called a swamp fox line. So I'm not exactly sure on the hundred like all the different people that were involved, but uh the last person that sort of got that line is uh Bieber Wallerman and Horseman. He um yeah, he breeds a lot of terriers and uh I I actually got Vic's through a friend's father. Um she was just too wild for him, so and I I'd just lost another terrier at the time, so he gave her to me. And I wasn't a fan of her at the start because she was quite shaggy. Uh so I shaved her and um yeah, now she's just blossomed into a ripper little terrier. She was uh she really put on a clinic today. She was yeah, finding all the foxes, getting them out and and just uh going up that that um that full dead tree, going all the way up of it and pushing it out the top.

SPEAKER_01 21:22

We'll go into that in a moment. But yeah, she's a ro she's a little pocket rocket, isn't she? Or what is she, like eight, ten inches to the shoulder?

SPEAKER_00 21:27

She's yeah, she's not very tall. She's micro, but that's perfect for here because some of the dens in my area specifically, they are really small, really deep and really tight. And um, like I have some friends come from two hours away, they come to hunt here and they just go, No, we're not doing dens at Caleb's house. They yeah, they don't don't want to do them here. Um How uh how much does she weigh, yeah? Oh, she would only be maybe four or five kilos. Four or five max. Yeah, yeah. She's only very small.

SPEAKER_01 21:56

How uh how so they've got small dens. How big are they small foxes? Because in Australia you go to a lot of places, especially as you get central. I mean, they are they look like pups, you know, they you don't get very big foxes. It's rough living. Yeah, very big up here.

SPEAKER_00 22:09

It's um they all get the same size everywhere, but it's because of what condition they're in. So you go into New South Wales, they all look like pups, but it's just because it's quite a lot hotter up there. But if you come down into these coastal areas and um the lower Victoria, it's a lot colder, so they've just adapted to having a lot thicker coat, so they look massive, but a lot of it is just fluff. And um uh what um my best mate taught me, he he sort of got me into the terriers, is um wherever a head the fox's head can go, their body can go. That's why they can squeeze into absolute tight places, like you've seen today where we got down into that hole and Vix couldn't quite get through, and she's quite small. And then yeah, she was able to get around and like that fox got in there no worries, and you're seeing that fox was quite large as well.

SPEAKER_01 23:00

Well, twice the size of her. Yeah. Yeah, to dig out, dig and get in there. But uh yeah, so you do you always run that large a team? And do you always have a mixed bag of terriers and long dogs, running dogs?

SPEAKER_00 23:12

Um there's multiple different ways that you can hunt. So on the different ways you hunt reflects to how many dogs you have. So most of our hunting we do off quad bikes, so we can actually get in and around the creeks and go across the paddocks and especially crop paddocks so that we don't disturb the sown pot paddocks as much. And um we always try to run the dogs single-handedly when we can control it. But when you're doing like what we've done today, um and you're on foot, you do need multiple dogs because one dog will be in there finding the fox and moving it, and then you'll have a couple that aren't quite as driven, and they're just sort of sitting on the edges and they're waiting to catch it. So you do do need a team to be able to catch them in a walking sense or in really thick cover. Um but on that sum cover you only want to let one dog in there because they'll go in, so say thick kabungi, um, it's basically uh like a big bamboo sort of looking bush and it grows really close together, and the dog will smell the fox in there and go in. And what the problem is is if you have multiple dogs, they smell the fox there and they can hear movement, but that other movement may as well be another dog. So if you put a dog in there, he smells it and then he hears movement, and if you've only got one dog in there, then he can actually um centralise on that fox while he's moving. But if you have too many dogs in there, there's too much noise going on. A lot of the times you see three dogs run into a massive kabungi patch and they're all running around in there chasing each other, and the fox pops out the back and you're gone.

SPEAKER_01 24:56

Too many chefs spoil the broth.

SPEAKER_00 24:58

Correct.

SPEAKER_01 24:59

So what is your go-to? So today we we had a bit of a hunt. What is your go-to technique? How do you go about hunting? Because I think there's probably guys out there who've got themselves a half-decent dog, they don't really have anyone to bring them on to help with the dog. How are you going about it? How do you care? Because I today, now I know quite a bit about animal behaviour. I know a little bit about foxes, but I learnt a lot today about how you go about how you go about finding them and what they go about in their day-to-day lives. So uh what's your go-to techniques?

SPEAKER_00 25:28

Uh my my forte is rainy days walking through creeks checking logs. Um, the foxes they do move around in the brain, but once it gets a bit too rainy, they always go to ground or go to a log. And uh I just love having a rainy day, not working, head out in the creek and just walk through with the dogs and have the raincoat, and you just check every log. And I just find so many that way. And it doing that teaches them, the dogs to check everything as well. Um, so once I've taught them, they don't actually I don't have to force them to do much. They do it themselves, like they see a log pile, they see a bit of grass, they go, Oh, those red things are normally in there, and they that off they go. Um and then probably my next one, especially around here, is uh nighttime stubble hunting. So we go out and uh we use the spotlight and we pick up the eyes and uh I just drive over to the fox and catch up to it, and then I come to a stop and I have automatic doors on my dog box and I I let one of the dogs out and and then I throw it in the back, rotate a dog, go to the next one, and you just kept going. And yeah, there was one night there with a mate, we got 26 and it was crazy. We couldn't stop catching foxes. Like we were we were getting was and there was another one over the back and they were just they were everywhere. That was real bad year um for foxes that year.

SPEAKER_01 26:53

So Do you ever just use terriers and nets?

SPEAKER_00 26:57

Uh I've never done that, but I've used ferrets and nets and bolted foxes. Um but uh it's a bit hairy when the fox hits the net because they uh they're not the rabbit, they kind of are bit stronger than what the net is, so you gotta get to them real quick before they bust that drawstring.

SPEAKER_01 27:12

So Yeah, you can't they there are people that do just use fox purse nets, a little bit better twine, bigger nets, obviously. And they just uh yeah, you need a dog that isn't gonna be as tenacious and it's just gonna want to bale them up and push them out the back door to get them out. But um, yeah, I've heard it working. But I mean they're just doing it that way, you know, where you've got dogs, you've got legs there just in case they slip the net or just catch them anyway. They didn't they didn't uh have any trouble today. So we went out today. We did try and look at some dens.

SPEAKER_00 27:43

Yeah, yeah, they just weren't active, unfortunately. The farmer sort of sent me a message and said that there uh there's a big den over here and there's one over here, and um I reckon we would we just missed one. I could smell fox in the hole, so there's definitely something living there, but we'd uh he wasn't home when we got there.

SPEAKER_01 27:59

So bit of fresh bit of fresh scrape, but nothing at home. And then we went and tried a bit of scrub. I was at one end with two dogs on a slip lead.

SPEAKER_00 28:08

Which is a device that Yeah, just a yeah, quick release lead, so it's just uh so you can control the dog. Two dogs on one lead ready to pop.

SPEAKER_01 28:17

And you went through firing, shooting, a shotgun.

SPEAKER_00 28:21

Yeah, just uh a few rouser shots, um, because yeah, we we done that patch once before last year, and uh we uh didn't quite do it as well as we wanted. We'd done it sort of towards the end of the day, and we'd already had a fairly big day. We uh caught about 17 foxes that day already, and we didn't do it very well, and we were very disorganized and we'd done it, and we had four foxes run out the back door, and we were pretty uh pretty disappointed with ourselves. So I tried to do it properly today, but nothing came out of it.

SPEAKER_01 28:46

So what what do the foxes get up to during the day? Because I just assumed, as most people would, that they are in their den or they're going out looking for food and they go back to their den.

SPEAKER_00 28:55

Yeah, it's uh it it's very different all over the place and weather dependent, wind dependent, and yeah, it's crazy. So if like first thing in the morning when it's nice and cold, they might have been hunting all night and then they'll go jump in their hole and and uh sleep for the morning, and then as soon as that sun creeps up and starts to warm up things, they're it's probably not as warm um in the den and they'll uh they'll bugger off and go find a nice branch or a piece of like a hay bale or um yeah, phalaris grass or tussocks or whatever, or spiny rush, and they just go sit on top of it and um just warm themselves. They're just like uh watching your dog in the backyard, they go out and lay on the grass and lay in the sun and just sunbake and um and then yeah, and then if anything's like rainy or windy, they um yeah, they bugger off and hide in logs and um yeah, and but they do actively hunt during the day as well. They do poke around like we go out in the quads after the crops have got up to about sort of ten centimetres uh on the farmers' properties that don't mind us um moving around on the quads on it, and um yeah, we just catch foxes walking around in the middle of the day because they just eat everything. If they're hungry, they eat everything. They eat crickets, they eat frogs, they eat all the native wildlife, they uh scavenge a lot as well, they clean up a heap of um like lambs that have passed away at birth, and if there's not much of that around, like if it's been a good year and everything's nice and healthy, and uh yeah, they just uh start taking out taking out things. They're opportunistic hunters, so if they stumble on something, they will just do what they've got to do in the moment.

SPEAKER_01 30:31

There are a few people in my neighbourhood who had rabbits, pet rabbits. You can't have anything. We've got zero I say zero, I didn't struggle to get permission. There are very few hunters out there. There's a couple of guys that come down and lamp rabbits at night with their uh thermoscopes, but very few people that are trying to deal with the fox problem. People with their chickens, their pet rabbits, even small cats. They uh they are not picky about what they eat.

SPEAKER_00 30:57

Yeah, well there was a uh a game camera footage that was all over Facebook very recently of a uh a bloke had his game camera set up on a small deer wallow looking for deer, and there was a uh an actual video of a fox pulling down a medium-sized kangaroo and holding it by the throat.

SPEAKER_01 31:15

Oh, yeah, absolutely. I did see that, yeah. Yeah, crazy.

SPEAKER_00 31:18

Yeah, people think that these foxes don't tack anything and they're just scavengers, and that is perfect evidence to show that they are killing these things. They they if they're hungry enough, whatever is in front of them cops it. They do not care. So crazy.

SPEAKER_01 31:34

So we went out there, we had a little look, didn't see anything. I thought it was gonna be a bit of a dry day. My fault I arrived, I had to come a little bit later. I was a few hours away, so I couldn't catch the uh the dawn run. Um, but but then we went and had a look at a creek.

SPEAKER_00 31:49

Yeah, no, that's a good creek. Um, yeah, it's been a bit of a tough year this year, well, to find foxes, but that is also really good. All my neighbours' uh lamb yields have gone up by 20 to 25 percent um in this area, so all the farms around my house, I have barely been able to find a fox, and that is a good thing. I'm actually very happy about that because that shows that my services are actually working. Um, and then every time I get a new property, I go out there and I spend a couple of days there and we just rake in the foxes, and then the following year you just see them slowly decline. Um we done a uh another property not far from here last year. It was the first time we fit went out for the first day and we got uh 15 um across a ray of things, and I only went there two weeks ago and I only found two next to a lambing paddock in log piles. Like it really does like even the uh the farmer's brother who's just came in to start help farming, he goes, You must have done a a good job because last time I was here there was just foxes everywhere, and he goes, I barely see them nowadays, so but um but yeah, that creek, um yeah, that that's one of my favourite creeks. There's a couple of good dens in it, and uh I uh there's these things called I call them beaver piles. We don't have beaver piles, uh we don't have beavers in Australia, but um the floods come through these seasonal creeks and they meet a big log and they just push all this driftwood all into a big pile and the foxes just get underneath it and love it. They just get in underneath there and live and um and that's basically their home base, and then they come out of a nighttime and chase around the sheep and attack other things and whatever. But um yeah, I love beaver piles. You get in there, the terrier gets in there, flushes them out.

SPEAKER_01 33:30

So they're not exclusively living in their dens, they have multiple houses, is what you're suggesting.

SPEAKER_00 33:35

Yeah, they'll they'll make a house out of everything, like even a human house, like abandoned houses. I've seen uh I haven't done it myself, but a few of my mates they've uh gone to abandoned houses and the terriers have gone under these houses, and there's just all sorts of commotion going under the house, they've had to rip up floorboards, and there's just they're just pulling fox after fox out of the under these floorboards of uh abandoned houses. Like they anywhere they can live, they'll live. They they really don't mind. So amazing.

SPEAKER_01 34:00

So we we found one of these beaver poles, and you would you could think that a beaver had made it. It looked like it was a pr a proper um beaver's dam. And we were there for some time at first.

SPEAKER_00 34:11

I mean, you said that it was actually quite a quick flush initially. Oh yeah, she she must have ran straight into their living room because as soon as she went in there I heard two barks and then two foxes come out straight after, and one one buggered off down the creek and we ended up picking him up later. But uh yeah, that other one, it was a smart vixen. Those female female foxes are a lot smarter. Whereas the dogs choose to the run. The uh the female foxes seem to be a lot smarter, they're harder to catch, they seem to be very good at dodging dogs, they're good at slipping around and running down rows and keeping low. And yeah, that uh that second fox gave us some dramas.

SPEAKER_01 34:47

But the first one just I've I was actually filming at the time and I was paying more attention to what I was doing. I had dog in the hand, I'm filming with the other hand, and uh he just banked. He didn't he didn't go more than two feet away from the actual pile, he just span around, saw the dogs, and duck straight back in.

SPEAKER_00 35:04

Yeah. It uh it definitely didn't help that I probably had more dogs than I'd normally use um on a normal day, and um it's good to keep the dogs out of the way so that the fox actually bolts, but I didn't mind the dogs being close because we were so close to successions of other beaver piles that they will only just run and run and run like run to cover and they just go to cover to cover. So I was hoping that those dogs being close when he was uh uh inevitably pushed out by the terrier.

SPEAKER_01 35:30

But we did get up on him, so eventually um Yeah. Did um did manage to get a flush. And I don't know how far he got. I mean it was a decent run. We had a little little dog. Um but I mean we were pretty close behind. I have this argument a lot with people. What they don't like about English hunting with hounds is twofold. Firstly, they don't like rich white people doing it because they have a negative opinion of their character anyway, but they also don't like the idea, they're they don't like their emotional response to it happening. It's like the same thing when they kill chicks, they use that scratter machine that just blends them up in an instant.

SPEAKER_03 36:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:07

It's the quickest step, it just turns them into mush instantly. But it's the idea of it going for a meat grinder that people don't like. People would rather there was a bit more suffering, but it was easier on their conscience and their mind.

SPEAKER_00 36:19

Yeah, no, that was uh that was good with that that fox. Um he he did bolt from that beaver pile and uh he went maybe about 800 metres and tried to hide out again, and then uh Frank hit his trail and yeah, pulled up on him again, and yeah, he I'd just got a very small glimpse of him coming over the top of uh one of the creek banks, and I'd just seen it was on it, and I seen him run down into the creek and I heard a bit of a squeal, and then I was like, yeah, we've got him.

SPEAKER_01 36:46

And he was a big boy as well, wasn't he?

SPEAKER_00 36:48

Yeah, 7.6 kilos. We actually weighed him. I thought he was going to weigh a little bit heavier than that, but um yeah, the common mis misconception wrong among fox hunters here in uh Victoria is they get a big fox and they think it might be 20 kilos or it's 15 kilos, and people don't understand that foxes are mostly just fluff. The biggest fox I've ever got is 8.3 kilos, and I've had mates that have caught uh 13 kilos ones and they are monstrous. And then the world record was shot in Wales over in um overseas and it was like 17.5 kilos, I think it was. And this fella's holding this fox and he's holding its legs right up in front of his face, and its nose is just about touching the ground. It's actually on the internet if anyone wants to have a look at it, it's quite impressive.

SPEAKER_01 37:33

Sizable wolf, that is insane. So uh we managed to get down there, we got onto that. I was carrying Metty Boy around, I still smell like dog, right fox dog right now. Uh, and then we decided to double back. We were heading back, and Frank saw some interest in a den that we'd already had a look at.

SPEAKER_00 37:52

Yeah, yeah, he had a look again, and um the way he was acting made me think that there were it like we'd already checked this den and there wasn't anything in there, and I'd gotten foxes out of it previously. Um and yeah, Frank showed a bit of interest in one of the holes and it must have been the one that the fox went in and then Vix went in and she wasn't too keen, and I tried to get her to come back in this other hole, and then I eventually got her in and uh I wasn't a hundred percent convinced on the bark she was producing once she was there. It was almost like a oh I I can't quite get to something bark and I wasn't sure if what she was trying to get to was just nothing or like a frustrated ya rather than a tenacious bark. Yeah, correct. So um nevertheless, she was quite keen, and Frank started doing some whimpering, and he doesn't normally do that, but I was sort of just because I was um not fully convinced by her barking, uh I was thinking Frank might have just been a bit um hyped up because she was barking and he he would obviously know that if she's barking there's something there. Um and then we dug down on top of the uh um terrier locator and we opened it up and it was a real tight gooseneck overturned and uh Vix couldn't quite get through and as soon as we opened it up, um she went in maybe another half length of her body and yeah, we were on. I I had no doubt in my mind that we had a fox right there.

SPEAKER_01 39:13

I heard it growl and to flush, but didn't get very far. It wasn't much of a run.

SPEAKER_00 39:18

Yeah, pretty much ran about 20 metres and straight up the guts of this big dead tree that was uh hanging up in a couple of trees. This how tall do you reckon that was?

SPEAKER_01 39:27

It was about three stories. I like to do it. People understand a story. It was about three stories up. If you're uh looking at, you know, in a a block of flats or something, you know, it was uh block a block of apartments.

SPEAKER_00 39:37

Yeah, it was a pretty tall tree and uh yeah, I uh tried to get her to go back. She did go up for a second and uh then she came back down. I thought, oh, she's not not too keen because she's culted and it was the funniest thing I've ever seen.

SPEAKER_01 39:48

She came down and you're going, go on, Vix, get up there. And she just shook her head, went and had a drink, and took three big breaths and was like, right, okay. Yeah, just give me a second, mate. I'm just just need a drink. And then she was straight back up. That's her.

SPEAKER_00 40:02

Yeah, that was pretty crazy. I I wasn't sure that Fox was actually gonna come uh out of that tree, but uh she pushed it right to the tip of this tree, and there mustn't have been an exit right at the end, but there was a tiny little hole uh on top of the branch that wasn't quite on the edge.

SPEAKER_01 40:16

So they'd gone all the way up the trunk of the tree, yep, through a branch of a tree, and then one of the branches that came off of the branch, they went all the way up and up the the offshoot as well.

SPEAKER_00 40:25

Yeah. Crazy. Yeah, it was pretty wild, and then um yeah, the she must have gave it a bit and then receded a bit, and the fox knew that it uh needed to get out of there, so it's uh it popped out of that hole right at the top of the tree, and it climbed along the tip of the branch and then into the branches of the tree that it was rested up in. And I I got an amazing video of Vic sitting up out of the hole just staring at this fox, wondering where if she was gonna go. Then I was hoping to go she didn't try to pursue it into the tree because she's not a monkey, she was gonna fall.

SPEAKER_01 40:57

She wasn't, you know, there was not a an ounce of like anger or aggression at that point. She was totally calm. This fox was over there, she'd done her job, the fox was out, it was everyone else's. That was your turn. Come on, everybody else. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:11

Yeah, that was pretty wild. And then I I jumped over the other side of the creek because I knew that this fox is gonna try to make it to ground, um, like get back to the ground, and um, yeah, so I ran across the creek and popped up the other side, and then yeah, the fox made its uh run at a getaway and uh hit the ground and yeah, just ran pretty much through every single log and bloody branch on the way and then uh very impressive for us to go through all of that and then for it to just run into the next beaver dam, and we basically had to start again, and she was in there that little little Jack Russell I forgot about that. Yeah, went back into that same beaver pile again and she flushed it out again and flushed out again. Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 41:50

Yeah, there's nice to because you know, dogs have got different personalities, breed makes a big difference, but as you said before, like you know, a great dog can make a crappy dog. Yeah, and a crappy dog can make a great dog. You don't know sometimes, but you can tell your dogs they're well looked after, they get on really well with each other, having half a dozen dogs that are perfectly together because you're in charge. You know, you can tell that you run the pack and they aren't squabbling amongst each other. When it came to the kill, they weren't fighting over it.

SPEAKER_00 42:19

It was uh Yeah, yeah, it's definitely uh you gotta make sure that they know that you're the boss. Like there's uh there's letting older dogs correct puppies and then there's older dogs settling disagreements and you've just got to settle it for them. That you've got to show them that you're you're the you're the alpha because if you let them think that they're allowed to do that stuff, then they're gonna start thinking they can do that to other people's dogs, and I just don't like that. So do you ever have to deal with any fighting between your dogs? Uh only when uh females are on heat. That's basically if there's a female on heat, you just keep the dogs locked up. It's it's not even worth it because all the males think, hey, I'm I'm her boyfriend, and the other guy's going, oh no, I'm her boyfriend, and then they just get the shits with each other and it just Yeah, it's it's just like yeah, well deer hunting. The the males come together and they fight. They fight over females. It's just um it's just uh their nature. So it's just good to keep them all separated from each other, feed them separately, let them out separately, but that's pretty much the only time. Um you do get um some males that like some male dogs that are just fighting dogs, but um, yeah, they don't have a place in uh in my team. If they if they just fight everything, then yeah, they they gotta go.

SPEAKER_01 43:35

How do you go about breaking them up when they do get into it?

SPEAKER_00 43:38

Uh I've never really had to separate a really bad dog fight, but normally they get on top of each other pretty quick. Like they figure out who's the boss pretty quick. So I've seen some pretty nasty ones happen in front of me, but they but they were none of my dogs, so I just um stood back. And most people you just let them go, they figure it out, and once they come to a standstill, then you can yeah. Break them up, but there's yeah, there's really not that much.

SPEAKER_01 44:02

Um I've got I've actually got my own technique that I came up with. When I was in my teens, we had a a few dogs that were they were staffageable terriers. This is before they were crackhead dogs. This is this is in the uh late 90s, early 2000s, show my age there. But um I used to have these dogs and they weren't they wasn't so much each other, though I did have two puppies, two males that got a bit of litter mate syndrome, but it was more other people who've got dogs that would attack them or give them a the wrong eye or whatever. They were usually pretty good with other dogs anyway. So a couple of times I've had to break up some pretty violent dog fights, and I think the worst thing that's happening at the moment is dog trainers are giving advice on how to break up dog fights when just because they're good at making a dog sit and roll over does not mean they're good at telling you how to stop a dog from fighting. And the what everyone's saying is lift the dog up and choke it out with a collar. Like lift it off the ground, lift the front legs off the ground and choke it out, and then it'll and I mean it's not they're not doing it wrong, it's not terrible advice, but what you've got is you lift a dog up and then it's on a pivot, so all the weights forward, you've got it by a string, it's if it's got hold onto another dog, it's shaking, and all that shaking, it's gonna spin around, wrap around you, you're gonna end up on the floor, and it's actually quite hard to choke something out when if it's especially if it's got a strong neck, it it doesn't really work very well. The technique I came up with is first, I used to wear a leather jacket because then you've got a barrier between you and the dog, and pretty quickly, especially with dogs that are you know adapted fighting, a lot of fights are just bearing of teeth and it doesn't mean anything, but when they really do fight, one will grab the other one. And what I'll do is I'll chuck my coat on top. And actually, that can be enough sometimes. They don't like being covered up, but that is a good barrier. It also muffles the sound, so they're calm, there's darkness. Yep. I tell everyone to shut up because everyone who shouts, what they think is, they're gonna stop them from fighting. But what they're doing is egging them all, they're creating an atmosphere. Yeah. Get everyone to be quiet, and then the dog that's got a latch on, you mount that dog, I guess I'll sit over their shoulders and grab onto their collar. Yeah. And at that point, they're just totally being dominated, everything's kind of quiet, they can't see anything, and eventually they'll let go, and then the the problem then is the other dog retreating, coming back and get you.

SPEAKER_02 46:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:16

So you've got to control that. But even and in that situation, if you want to apply some twist pressure and put down, you can choke the dog unconscious. I've never had to do that. Yeah, yeah. I've broken up 18 million fights, I've never had to.

SPEAKER_00 46:27

Yeah, I've never even had to get it sort of to that point. Like uh, the biggest thing if you speak to dog handlers in multiple different things, uh, is timing. So the biggest thing is stopping any of that from happening from the first place. So you've got to be able to read your dogs, or well, once you know how to read dogs, you can read anyone's dog, but it's uh you can just see like when they're starting to tick over, and like sometimes there might be a fairly uh dominant male in a hunting situation and they meet together and they've never seen each other, and you can read as soon as you see any fur start to stick up on their back or you see them start to straighten their tail, as soon as you see any of that happening, you need to get involved straight away before anything starts, because it's hard to start hard to stop something once it starts. So it's all timing. Um same thing with corrections, um, like when they are happening to chase the wrong thing or they're doing the wrong thing, it's timing. Like you can't see the dogs dug a massive hole, come home from work 12 hours later and then belt them for that hole. Then they're not going to understand. So timing is everything. Um, yeah, the big yeah, yeah. I've never had to go to that extent to stop any fights. Like they have a bit of a growl at each other, but you just get involved straight away. Like you just yeah, and then most of the time, if it's your dog, that's enough to pull them down because they know like you're the boss. But if you ever let them sort out their own stuff, that's when your word isn't gonna mean bugger roll to them and they're gonna keep doing what they reckon.

SPEAKER_01 47:57

Great advice. Um and pleep all, please stop shoving your finger at the dog's ass.

SPEAKER_00 48:01

Oh, that was a terrible video. Yeah, don't don't digit dogs. That's that's the best advice I've heard from the Alpha Blokes. Yep, don't digit dogs.

SPEAKER_01 48:09

Yeah, um yeah, I'm not a fan. Please uh try the other techniques first before you uh resort to that kind of uh Yeah, yeah, it's terrible.

SPEAKER_00 48:17

And for anyone that has dogs that are are like that and they're gonna attack other people's dogs or whatever, just leave them at home until you sort them out, or do not take them out in public like that, because that's that's where bad things happen. And that this goes for old ladies too. They take out their little sweet fluffy thing that's gonna attack a dog that has way more physical ability than what that does. And like these things are just like it's single child, like only child syndrome. These things see any other dog, never spin socialized, and they go nuts, and then then they go barking up at a at a German shepherd and biting it, and what's this thing gonna do? Oh, this thing's biting me, I'm gonna flog it, and then it's the German shepherd's fault. But it's just these dogs that do not get um any uh training or anything and just let to do whatever they want, and they think that the world is theirs, they they've never been given any structure on um who's in charge or anything like that. They basically run their household, and yeah, that's one issue I have with um people that have pet dogs, they don't train them enough, honestly.

SPEAKER_01 49:18

So they don't know firstly, they don't know that they're a Yorkie and they don't they have got literally no chance. I think that there's this cognitive dissonance there, but also they have been taught that they get their way, they're in charge. Yeah, like I just basically what you're saying, they can be gobby and it means that everyone else is going to pander to that. But what that up that dog sees is this is a threat, and it might be a little threat, but he's still a threat, and I need to eliminate that threat. Yeah. But it's always the person with that yappy dog that is the one that then starts being aware I'm the victim, I'm the victim.

SPEAKER_00 49:51

What your savage dog attacked my dog. My dog was just saying hello, no, your dog was coming up and biting and nipping this dog at the face, it deserved what it got, unfortunate as it is.

SPEAKER_01 49:59

But yeah, you see them with their tail up, with the oh, his tails wagging, that frantic ticking backwards and forwards to like 11-1, 11-1, 11-1. That is saying, if there's a violence, I am willing to engage. That's what that is. That's a dominance gesture. Your dog is not wagging its tail, it is starting some shit.

SPEAKER_00 50:18

Yeah, and when it's when it's when it's dead straight, they are starting it. That's that's what's happening. As soon as it goes dead straight, they're all tensed up and they're ready to go, shackles up, chest out. Yeah, it's just yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:29

Yeah, Professor Willington is not just saying hello, he thinks he's dominant, he's coming over to just because he's uh a uh some weird hybrid dog, you've put both the names together like a cavalodo or whatever, and you've given him a funky name like popcorn, he's still a dog. Yeah, correct. Um another thing I think is really important is to touch on is conditioning your dogs, looking after your dogs. You can tell your dogs are in beautiful condition, and I'd love to know how it is you go about getting them in that amazing shine.

SPEAKER_00 51:00

Um the biggest thing for me is um constant feeding and you look at a dog, and once you've done it enough, um, before I knew what I was doing, I'd weigh the dog and figure out what its uh working weight is meant to be, and then you can work off protein and carbs uh through the the dog food chart on the back of your uh back of your dog food and the meat that I um provide them as well is I just Google what it is and uh get the protein count, and then you can actually figure out how much food that dog's meant to have per day. Um, because overfeeding is a massive thing um, unfortunately. Like you see a lot of pets and their their bellies are dragging on the ground and those people have the audacity to yell at me and say, Oh, your dogs are too skinny. No, my dogs are fed right at the right amount, maybe a little bit extra, because some days they don't get work, so they get fed exactly what they need. Um, and a fit and healthy dog is a happy dog. Like you might think that these these bloody like you see some of the even staffies, like you see some of them, and these things are absolute blimps, or you see the dash hounds, like dash hounds used to be used for hunting and these things like they're they're just elongated sausages and their bellies are just wearing on the ground because they've just overfed. Like, dogs aren't meant to be overfed. Like if you think about a dog in the wild, they might have ate every two days or whatever, always running around. And those dogs would eat as much as they need to, and you never see a fat dingo unless it's on Fraser Island or whatever and he's been eating heaps of burger scraps or whatever. But um, yeah, I like to keep them uh three ribs showing at the back, and if I'm going piggin uh away in New South Wales uh in really remote areas, I like to feed them a little bit extra before I go on the off chance that that dog um gets lost. I've never had it happen, but it was a uh I was taught this um by an older fellow, so you give them a little bit more condition before you go away so that if they did get lost, they're not right on that edge of a working weight that they're going to deteriorate if you can't find them for three or four days. Um and also anyone that goes hunting with dogs know you go away for three or four days. Those dogs don't really eat much, all they care about is going hunting. So they always lose condition after a big trip. Um and one little tip that I learnt off the uh Chase and Boar Tails podcast with um uh Boring Australia is when you go away, feed them um high protein density food, like you take a couple of cans of cat food with you, so you can't get them to eat much while you're away, and you don't really want them to eat much because they end up getting full and slow and not hunting as well. But those small cans of cat food are absolute dynamite. As soon as I heard it, I tested it the next few times I went away, and they just seem to be able to rebound and have so much more energy over those multiple days of uh hunting. Um and yeah, it was just yeah, quite incredible. I really thought it was great.

SPEAKER_01 54:01

Shout out to Boring Australia, they are coming on the podcast soon.

SPEAKER_00 54:05

Oh yeah, amazing.

SPEAKER_01 54:06

They are seriously getting after it up there.

SPEAKER_00 54:09

Yeah, Nat's lovely. I talked to Nat over Instagram a fair bit. Um, yeah, she's great. Yeah, yeah, she's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 54:15

Wonderful people. Now the community, sorry, just to continue on the uh on the uh the subject of conditioning, so what is their gen general diet?

SPEAKER_00 54:23

So they're um uh yeah, so I um I feed dry food um and I don't know how many people know about it, but you need to always float your dry food because if you're feeding them just straight dry food, they're eating all this stuff and it swells up in their guts and sucks the water out of out of the dog. If you don't believe me, put your dog's food in a bowl and fill it with water and leave it for four hours, you see how much that those cubes expand and they pretty much triple in size, and that's what they're doing inside your dog. Um, and it sucks all the water out of them. So I always float my dog cubes. So I feed them dry food and I have a product called Livermole, which I've been using for maybe a year and a half now. It was recommended to me by a friend who has a working line of Kelpies, and since I put them on that, it's a coat conditioner, cool energy, uh, and it just has heaps of minerals and vitamins in it that is essential for like a good coat and uh all that type of stuff. Nothing that nothing in there that's bad for them. So I mix the liver mole with water, I float their dry cubes, every dog gets a um different amount based on their size and weight, and they always get a a good chunk of meat every day as well. And the two older dogs um with a couple of injuries, they get rose hip vital as well. I've only been using that um relatively recently. It was recommended to me by a friend, um, the same fellow who bred that uh Catahula pit gray that you're seeing down there. Beautiful dogs. Yeah, Michael Buck, he's really he really knows what he's doing with his dogs now. He's um he's hit the nail on the head with those Catahuola pit grays, they're amazing. Um but yeah, so yeah, floated cubes always and a piece of meat every day. Um and if you have a period, or if I have a period where I'm not able to run them as much through work or whatever, I might give them a skip feed for a day. Um so it's better than feeding them uh less uh each day. It's better just to give them one skip feed. Um so keep them at their normal amount, and then I give them one skip feed. So they use a bit of their bit of the stuff that's on their body, a bit of the fat there, and they go straight back to a full feed again as well. And it just uh knocks that little bit of fat that they've congregated off, and then I go back to building it again because they're otherwise I don't like adjusting their feeds too much, it gets a bit too confusing.

SPEAKER_01 56:48

So I yeah, so your your feed has got uh high vitamin content, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_00 56:53

So you supplement Yeah with that liver mole, yeah. So some of these uh dog food brands uh out there at the moment, some of the really good ones, they're just asking incredible amounts of money for it. So I use uh Stockman and Paddock. Um they're an Australian brand, they're made in New South Wales, and they're it's really good. Um and some of the really good stuff doesn't have much more different uh stuff to what that does, like in it. Um it's just all the ingredients and how they actually incorporate the protein into the dog food. And some of the really cheaper brands, they have way too many fillers, and they're just getting it from animal byproducts instead of actual meat. Um, and they just fill it with wheat just as a filler, so there's actual a substance amount of food. Um, but yeah, Stockman and Paddock is really good at use real real beef, um, real Australian beef, and um then I supplement the liver mole into as well uh just to get that good coat on them and a bit of that cool energy. I really noticed the difference as soon as I started them on that, so that was really good.

SPEAKER_01 57:56

That's amazing, and I love that you give them meat. One thing I just want to touch on is a bit of a wild take is that dogs are carnivores. People have this misconception that dogs are omnivores. What you have is is a wolf that has a an elite an evolutionary survival adaptation to be able to process grains slightly better. That's it. So what they have is the AMY2B gene, which uh means that they can break down some starches better than a wolf can, but they still have a small intestine. They've got an incredibly high, it's uh pH is like one or two, where humans is four or five, and their intestine's incredibly short. They are not supposed to be first living off of an omnivore's diet, really, but definitely don't hashtag vegan dog it to stop letting your dogs making your dogs vegan.

SPEAKER_00 58:46

Yeah, that is that is uh very, very silly people trying to make their dogs vegan. I'm that it that's animal abuse at its core. Um yeah, well if you feed a dog a very cheap dog food, wheat is the main thing in it and that's the main filler. And I don't know if you've ever fed it, well, I don't do it, but I've seen it happen. The dog's poos are very sloppy and disgusting because it just has not been processed very well. Um and then you give them a high protein dog food where meat is the um or meat or meat byproducts is the primary additive into that dog food. They they're a lot better on it. Their coats are shiny, um, and I guarantee you if you had a bowl of broccoli and a bowl of meat side by side, the dogs are gonna smash that meat every day. 100%.

SPEAKER_01 59:34

Just because they can doesn't mean they need to. Like for instance, I've got slightly webbed fingers and toes. I can hold my breath and swim under water. In fact, our babies can be born in a swimming pool and they'll swim to the surface. That doesn't mean I need a swimming pool in the living room. I don't need one to survive. Just like that, your dog, I mean, I think to be a carnivore, it's your diet needs to be at least 70% meat for an animal to be considered a carnivore, because obviously they still eat some random stuff and they'll eat the inside of the animals that they eat. They'll eat their partly digested plant matter as well. But primarily they're carnivores. They don't need it to survive, and yeah, I think it's just important because I do see a lot of people that are insisting that because they're supposedly omnivores, it means they can't they should have both, or they they can just have plant food, they can just have grains and pulses and they can live it in harmony with the earth, and it's just you're abusing your dog, I think.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:27

Yeah, well, it's pretty similar to humans. Like um, you need to have a mixture of both. Um, if it was really bad for us, we'd all be vegan, but that's that's not the truth. Um the only reason people are trying to make their dogs vegan is because they're probably vegan themselves and they think it's the greatest idea, and they're just completely diluted people. They don't actually understand the way everything works in the world, and that's just uh as you were saying to me earlier, it's just a emotional basis of why they're actually doing it. And if you try to argue with any of these vegans, they they just try to say, I'm a pacifist, I don't believe in in arguing and all that. It's just that's the only argument they have.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:03

Yeah, yeah, you hit the nail on the head, that's that's exactly it. It is uh a feelings-based narrative, and maybe one day someone will come on the show as a vegan to talk about it, but I am struggling to find that person. Now, do you um prefer running dogs or bitches? Are you a male or female dog uh preferred guy?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:21

I definitely prefer the dogs. You can always provide uh like maybe everyone has a different opinion, and um like even one of my closest mates, he reckons he's had more working bitches than he has dogs. But I find it from my experience, dogs are so much easier to start than bitches. Bitches are I've I was having this conversation with uh another mate recently. Bitches are a lot more emotional than a dog. Um like if you get a really good if you get a good bitch, it is a fantastic dog, and they're always really, really, really smart. Um the dogs, they are good catch dogs, and I have a very high success rate on creating good um male dogs, but I've really struggled to get um bitches going well. Um they are very soft-handed. If they do something wrong, um you've got to really be careful the way you go about telling them um telling them off because they remember, like if you had a dog about to run through a gate when you were letting all the dogs out and they've got to sit down before they come out, if that bitch goes to run past and you put your leg out and she runs into your leg and hurts herself a little bit, you're gonna have problems with getting that bitch to come out through the gate forever. Like she'll come to go out the gate and then she'll go, Oh, am I gonna get hurt hurt? I'm gonna go back again. They just um yeah, they're just so emotional and they seem to be very timid. It's almost like you've got to get a bitch that's a bit funny in the head and acts more like a male uh for them to be good. But um, yeah, I I am trying to currently uh breed uh well, trying to get a bitch that's good so I can breed a couple of my really good dogs uh with a bitch, but I'm always trying to put like a good dog and a good bitch together that complement each other. So I'm trying to breed Todd at the moment, he's primarily got greyhound in him, so I'm trying to breed a uh solider type bitch that will complement um com to uh uh complement his features. So a solider type bitch to his finest, finer side and mix them together. So um maybe a bitch that's really good but she lacks speed and stuff like that. I can put them together and hopefully create some good dogs. So I do have I do have Craig, his young son, um, and he's looking really good as well.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:40

But uh yeah, the black dogs, so they're bull grey crosses?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:44

Yeah, uh bull ter uh bull terrier, greyhound, barrowhound.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:48

Farrowhound, that was it. You're saying that's a really good dog for tenacity, is that right?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:51

Yeah, they've got extremely high prey drives. Um, so one of my best mates, his father imported one from Egypt, so I must have had some spare money at the time. But um, yeah, they used that, and while in its pure form, it was still quite good from what I think he was saying, but it wasn't quite hard enough to do foxes. Um but then once that was mixed into the breed, that uh high drive that they had mixed with the bull terrier and the greyhound just created um bull bully greys essentially that were just extremely high-driven. So some bull uh like bully greys, they don't have a lot of hunting them. So if you go out into a patch, even if you train them from the start, they don't tend to like to get in amongst it and have a crack and look for everything. Um but yeah, that Farrah hand really added in, like he was so switched on.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:49

He was on you, on the other dogs, working out what the situation is, where he should be, which I think might have been slightly it can be a bit you can be a bit too clever because you were trying to get me to hold him up on the bank and he was having nightmare. He was like, No, I I I need to be in the fray, I can't be watching from the sidelines. I need to be working out what's going on.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:09

Yeah, it's very good when you're trying to get animals out and into the open. I can always count on count on him to be in there pushing the stuff out. Um I when I'm normally on my own, I like to have the shotgun. Something will come out in front of us and you just let him go. And but yeah, he was he was always great. He always got in there and amongst it and got them all out. He's a bit slower now from all his injuries, but um, yeah, he's still dynamo, still my best dog.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:32

Any ideas what you want to put over him? You're looking for the same breed, ideally.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:36

Yeah, well I do have one of Frank's daughters here at the moment. Um she's like a bully grey with a smidge of ridge back in there, and she pretty much looks exactly like Frank, but she's quite a bit taller. Um, so and she's quite quick, but she's not quite there, and I'm not entirely sure that she's gonna get there, unfortunately. But my plan was to put him Over one of Frank's uh offspring because I always had this little thing like Frank and Todd were my first dogs that I got when I moved out of home, and I always said I wish I could have Frank's smarts and his body and then mix him with Todd and have his hardness and mix the two together, and that was me great idea. But um I'm just uh really struggling to um get a bitch that's uh any good. Um I do have one of my mates' bitches here at the moment. She's only quite young, so she comes from a very good line of dog, and they were always quite hard. Like one of her um, the litter before her just recently started going really, really well. So I'm hoping that she turns out the same. And um essentially they're kind of from the same line. That uh the dog that fight fathered that line um is uh related to Todd as well, so it'll still be like a close bred uh sort of thing, but um it's just all a waiting game to see what turns out and what doesn't, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:59

Fair enough. Um I noticed all your boys, they've uh they've still got their plums in the pouch. How do you feel about castration?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:07

Oh I've never really known anyone that hunts to neuter their dogs. Um You could possibly do it if you have a highly aggressive dog, maybe, but um I feel like there's other things at play than other just knocking the nuts out of it because it's a bit too aggressive. I think there's just underlying things, it's just an aggressive dog uh Yeah, so and if you run a line of dogs, there's no point having a dog that you can't breed from unless it's filling a space until you have another dog come through that you will breed from, because you're just having a mouth to feed that's a means to an end, it's just a tool. So I'd prefer to have dogs in my team that are good that I can actually continue on from and keep what I'm doing alive, but uh a castrated dog or a spaded bitch that just wouldn't wouldn't be any use to me.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:58

I've actually heard some reports recently, and what they're saying is the massive hormonal detriment. People think it calms their dogs down because they don't have all of this uh built-up testosterone, but what they think is it's actually causing massive depression that you can't see in your dog because there's a guy and he's like, I can't remember, he was some sort of like um body hacker type guy, and he noticed this dog, he didn't actually notice, but he was thinking having this realization, and he started giving his dog testosterone treatment, like TRT, changed his dog's life. The dog was bubbly and bouncy, and they're starting to think that in the same way that men who are like eunuchs and stuff, how they get severe depression and whatever else because of the hormone imbalance, that basically all dogs the reason why they're calm is because they're uh um in emotional distress, or they're at least depressed in a literal sense, like they're just not as vibrant and happy with life.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:51

Yeah, I would uh I would definitely be depressed if someone cut off my knackers.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:56

Yeah, you know it for sure. Um but it's something it's it's definitely interesting. I'll never do it again. My my dog, my lurcher, he went he now she he now lives with my friend, and she's amazing. She um was a falcon and trainer and um was on uh the the really wild show or oh no, it was uh autumn watch or spring watch with uh what's his face in the UK. Like she's an animal expert and really good, still takes him out hunting, is all good, but she cut his knackers off. I would never allow it and she cut his knackers off. And yeah, now I'd never have a dog again and castrate them.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:31

Yeah, some people do it when they have pets just so that they don't have to deal with um their dogs doing anything to other people's bitches on heat or um people who have bitches um they spade them so that they just can't get accidentally joined um by a dog because as long as you see it happen, you can throw a cold bucket of water on them and they'll separate. You throw it on the dog and they separate. But uh if they actually get nodded and it's an undecided thing, you don't want puppies or whatever, it's an extremely expensive needle at the vets to get that to uh um like to basically abort the the the the puppies and I think in a way it's good for people with pets and stuff like that because so many people have dogs joined and they just have puppies and then puppies are just everywhere and there's so many puppies at the at the pound and um people that just have a dog while it's a puppy and as soon as it gets older they they bugger it off and they they don't want it anymore, it's not cute and cuddly anymore.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:31

And I think there's definitely too many dogs in Australia for the amount of people 100% agree, and I think people should be much more accountable for the actions of their dogs.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:41

Yeah, correct.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:41

The people need to control their dogs, and I know it's better for people to castrate their dogs because it will lead to there not being so many dogs around. I get I totally get that argument. Um, but there's far too many dogs that just have no training, no life, like you said, they rule the roof, people don't understand that they don't have a fur baby, they have a wolf that lives in your house. It need some sort of if you look at the way that they correct each other and they live their lives, shouting at your dog is nothing compared to what another wolf does to a wolf in order to teach it how to live its life, and they need that, and they yearn for it. In fact, they actually yearn for that because a a dog that doesn't have strong leadership dies quicker because it's more anxious, it's more nervous, it doesn't know its place, their hearts run faster, they do die quicker. It's really bad for them. And I think it's really important that people do look after their dogs. Like, for instance, I live in quite an affluent area, and Pit Dike abuse kind of comes with it's the same with children, it comes with a there's a pay grade, you know. When you're kind of well off, having a dog that lives in the garden, doesn't get much exercise, much care, much training, much of a life. It's yeah, they go for all they're killing stuff and going mad and running around. You see them running around the neighborhood, and people put little things on the local community board and saying, Whose dog is this? and it's the same few dogs that are running around the beach and going crazy. Yeah. It's not is unacceptable.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:04

Yeah, and people think that uh us with hunting dogs that they're vicious and because of obviously what they do, but they're a working dog, and us uh dogmen, we work in very close capacity with these dogs, and I would much uh I would trust a like any like most hunters' dogs, I would trust their dog a lot more than um any of those larger breeds in a pet home because those pet dogs have had their natural instincts suppressed for so long and the one day that something runs across in front of them, a small child or someone else's dog or someone's cat, those dogs that are in the pet home, their instincts will kick in and they've never been learnt how to control them. They haven't been shown what they're allowed to direct those instincts towards or anything like that. Whereas like my dogs you've seen today, we walk past uh a mob of sheep that had lambs everywhere and they didn't look one thing at them, but you mobaroos, yeah. Yeah, mobaroos. You take um you take these pet dogs out and they're gone. They're they're chasing something. That instinct kicks in and they don't know what they're allowed to do and what they are allowed to do, and yeah, it's just um unfortunately we're basically domesticating dogs that have a natural instinct to hunt, and that's why I think us guys that take these dogs out and hunt them, these dogs are having a much better life, they're allowed to do what they were built to do. So couldn't agree more.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:35

I mean, Vicks today, she was going after an animal twice her size, no gib up. You'd say that's a that's an aggressive dog. We went and sat by the bank, we gave them a drink of water, we sat down, and she came and sat on my lap, curled up, and just looked at me to scratch her under the neck. Yeah, she was gentle as a lamb, and then we started to move again and she saw the VIX and it got her and she was all over it.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:58

Yeah, she wasn't happy with that one. She there was a grudge there for sure. Oh yeah, I would have yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:03

Um what do you feel about the dogging community in Australia? What's it like here?

SPEAKER_00 1:14:07

Um well while with most things there's definitely the good and the bad. Um, but some of the people I've met through social media and the dogging community, I've met some of the most incredible people um ever. Like some people that have given me great information. Um and the hunting community is very tight-knit. We all anyone in the hunting community should be supportive of everyone else in the hunting community. While you might not um actually do that aspect of hunting, I feel like we should all work together to protect all aspects of hunting. Um like I have some blokes that come down from Melbourne about three hours away to come hunting at Easter. And while we're going out in the creeks and we're hunting all day and whatever, we come back and we're just everyone's so helpful with each other. Like I had a leaking pipe out near the dam pump, and one of them was a plumber, and he said, Oh right, oh no, you need this, that, that, and that, and he ordered it all from Reese's and and he paid for it and just told me to go pick it up and told me how to fix it. Like everyone in the hunting community are just lovely. Like you do have some bad people, but you'll come to find they're very solitary and they don't fit in anywhere. But you see these big group of hunters, like all those big Fox Drive people or um any of these groups, everyone in there just wants to help help everyone. Like we go out, we do our thing, and then we all look after each other, it's great. So that's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:38

Yeah, because we talked about um Born Australia, great guys, you know, they're wonderful. There are some wonderful contingencies of Aboriginal guys as the Boer brothers. I don't know if you've heard of them, yeah. I've seen them on Instagram as well. Yeah, getting after it, lovely guys, you know, just uh enjoying the craft. I think it's that thing about niche aspects within hunting. When you've got something large like rifle hunters, it's so varied and it's such a broad community. But when it comes to like your tradbow guys or you know, like or even your compound guys, but people who are into dogs, they're so incredibly passionate. Yeah, so incredibly passionate.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:14

Yeah, you have to be. Using dogs is a very uh it's a very hard sport. Like it you have to be very passionate about it to keep going. It's like um the way I explained it to people is it's like having a footy team. Like you can't just put a dog in the in the gun case and um like in the in the gun safe and pull it out in three weeks' time, like it's a constant thing. Like you've got to be able to train those dogs on the weeks that you're not hunting, you've got to give them time, training, exercise, and everything. Um so like yeah, you just can't put them in a cupboard and and that's it. Like you've got to, it's a constant thing. So you have to be really passionate about it. And the best um the biggest thing is I feel like those people that just absolutely love dogs, that's they're people that really excel because they just love the dogs. They're not in it for the um the aura of having hunting dogs or whatever. They actually love the dogs because apart from the hunting, they are actually a pet as well. Like all my dogs come inside, sleep in the bed, come on trips and everything, and yeah, it's you're considering your dogs pets as well at work. Oh yeah, they're part of the family. It won't once they're a going dog and they do their job well, I'll do anything for 'em. So I treat them well and everything the whole way up to it, but until they become that asset to me, that's when they really click over that um they click over that cog and they just become a really important per like animal to me and I'll I'll do anything. I'll carry them out. Um if they get hit by a pig, I'll carry them out no matter how tired my legs are or my back is, getting them back to the Ute to get them first aid. Um, yeah, like if any of them's injured, like Vicks, she's a little bit chewed up at the moment, so when we're finished here, she'll come in and have a shower with me, and I'll give her a wash and clean up her cuts and give her some antibiotics as well, and she can um camp inside tonight and yeah, you just you gotta look after them. If they work for you, you've got to look after them.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:08

Tony's hilarious. He was he wouldn't break stride the whole day, and then as soon as we were getting off of the you off out of the back, he I had to pull him off and then he's limping on his leg and now he's in front of the fire. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:21

He I swear he puts it on. He definitely does, yeah. I have a few mates that say that when I'm not around, they see him walk normally when uh when I'm not around, and then as soon as he sees me, he goes back to limping again because he just yeah, I I think he's got me figured out that fella.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:35

Uh, what did you think about my idea? I was thinking about breeding myself a dog, doing it for my future kind of project, for my retirement project. And I was looking at, we spoke about it today. I was looking at mixing a yard terrier with a working line some sort of bull, probably working line Staffordshire because I've got history with them, and putting that over some legs. Uh well, I was thinking about an Italian greyhound, but they're very fine animals, they're quite yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:04

As I was saying today, um the the Yag Terrier or Jagger, depending on what side of the fence you sit, they they are incredible. They are a credibly versatile dog. I've seen them uh they have been crossed with a straight greyhound and they were immaculate dogs. Like anything that the yard gets put into, um it always amplifies it. Like the adding the jag into anything always adds something good, uh in my opinion. Um and the Staffy, the uh the the crackhead dog uh in Australia, there's only sort of one bloke that I know that has working line staffies just because of the reputation that they get. Um they're no different to pit bulls, but pit bulls have just been absolutely refined the hell out of just because they're a larger size and everything in human nature bigger is better. Um so there definitely is uh a place for a like a working staffy because you can get that size down and uh have it a bit smaller than what that uh pit bull is. They're basically just a miniature version of a pit bull, in my opinion. Um and then as we were talking about the Italian greyhound, I would never have thought that there would be a working line of Italian greyhound. They may catch rabbits maybe, but uh I feel like they're just way too fine in the legs. Like I've seen one in person. I um I knew a lady that had one, and um without looking at the body of the dog and just looking at its feet, it just looked like rat feet. It literally had rat feet. Um so what I suggested to you was find a working line of whippet, they're marginally bigger and they still have that size, but I still think besides terriers uh as a running dog, whippets are pound for pound the most uh versatile dog out of anything, and they're so quick off the mark, they just fly so versatile. Like I know fox dog whippets, I know people who use whippets as lugging dogs for pigs, bailing dogs for pigs, um, whippets that have gone into protection work as well, they're just so versatile, they're an amazing, amazing breed.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:14

So I mean, because I was under the misconception, and it it is was the kind of legend of the the whippet that it was just a miniaturized greyhound, but it isn't, it's it's got all sorts, it's got terrier, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:21:26

And yeah, it they're their own dog. If you put a a greyhound in its pure form next to a whippet, uh a greyhound would never even act like a whippet. Like whippets are great, they'll just chill out the backyard, but as soon as you take them hunting, they're everywhere. They're not just sighthounds like the greyhounds are. The greyhounds are like see like how they use them for racing. They s they see the teaser, they go the teaser, but whippets they have a lot more brains as well. Um and they are just so smart. Like um, my best mate, he had one of the best whippets I've ever seen. Um, she would have she wouldn't have been she would have been maybe 10 kilos and like a fox breaks, like if we had her today, that fox would have been tied up in five metres. Like she was just so quick, just off the mark, bang, and then she'd roll with it, and it was just incredible. She was a unreal dog, yeah. Luna her name was.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:19

Yeah, they're just the the poor man's greyhound, wasn't it? Like I've heard they were meanly so they could put them in their coats and chuck them out and catch a catch a rabbit on the sly. But um, yeah, I mean when you hear that about them putting choice terriers in just to make them as tenacious and ability to turn a bit better and yeah, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:37

Yeah, yeah, they were very good at turning. They can turn on a dime. They were very um essential for a lot of people's survival during the Great Depression here when um your underground mutton, your rabbits, was your primary food source, um, and not everyone had access to firearms, and that obviously uh obviously cost money, and like people would go down, um, like there's stories of people in um like old time Richmond and Melbourne going out into little bushland areas and catching rabbits, and they'd go back home and they'd uh cook rabbits on a small stove, and they've only been able to scrounge up splinters of wood to cook these rabbits and stuff like that. And yeah, those uh those whippets and even sort of your long-legged Jack Russell, sort of your parson type, they were yeah, essential for human survival back then for your your poorer person.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:26

Yeah, I I think that's really amazing, you know, but having that symbiotic relationship with an animal, but also it being such an amazing tool to be able to survive as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:36

Yeah, no whippets are great, they're a great addition to any type of running dog. That's where sort of Frank's line come from. They have the the bully grey whippet, and I've seen quite a few uh just straight bully greys and your F1s and any of those types that have a bit of whippet in them, they just seem to be able to do a little a lot more. They're a lot more um they have a lot more agility and they like you seen Frank Day was trying to jump up that tree and that and the bully greys they just seem to be a bit rigid, like while they're good and hard, they um they just lack that bit of uh manoeuvrability as well.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:10

Do you how how important is size to you? Do you think having like the bigger the better, like just chuck in, you know, like a a a wolf hound in with a a bore ball and just see what happens?

SPEAKER_00 1:24:20

Um some aspects size is good. Um so I've seen any size dog do anything. Like it it all depends on the dog, but uh for my personal preference I like them around that 26 uh like uh inches to the shoulder. Um I just like a bit of a bit more size. Well, the the smaller dogs are really good in the creeks because they're faster and they can um get up speed quicker and get to those foxes there. But because I do a lot of my hunting in the open, um those smaller dogs they seem to lack a little bit, whereas once I get out in the open with these uh these foxes out in the stubble paddocks and stuff like that, these larger dogs just close the gap so much quicker, hit the fox, and then we get it and we can go get another one. Um but that's just my preference. But I I have seen very, very small dogs do things that big dogs won't do. It's just uh it all depends on what type of country you hunt. That's a that's a massive thing. Um, and how you hunt as well. So for me, these um these larger sort of size dogs, these 26-inch dogs, they're they're good for what I do. Um and then because I obviously do pigs as well, I prefer to have a bit more size because I um besides Joe, who's been uh made a dedicated pig dog, all these other dogs need to be dual-purposed. Um because yeah, I don't have a lot of um pigs around, so I've only got enough room for one dedicated dog, and the rest can be dual purpose, so they need to be able to do both, so I'm not leaving one at home too often.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:56

How do you feel about bull Arabs? Why don't you run Arabs?

SPEAKER_00 1:25:59

Uh they're definitely more of a um just a central pigging dog.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:05

Could you tell it what what is a bull Arab?

SPEAKER_00 1:26:08

Uh a bull Arab is the mix of three breeds, which is your bull terrier, greyhound, and your your pointers. And from uh I'll give him a bit of a shout out, Ryan Scaife. Uh he is really great to talk with about um certain breeds and everything and why the bull Arab of today is very different to the bull Arab of when it was actually um first introduced. So obviously it was bred here in Australia primarily for pigs, and the bull Arabs you see today, someone's throwing mastiff in there and they've got these big, big heads, and uh that's just not a bull arab, that's a bull arab crossed with something else. Yeah, bull Arabs were essentially a bully grey with a pointer in it, so it had that speed, noseability, and tenacity from the bull terrier to find, like locate, find, hold pigs um on the daily. Um and some of these bull Arabs you see today, they're just these massive things. They're not meant to be that big, those bull arms. That's not what they are originally made to be. Um, and a few of the other people I've spoken to, including Scafee, the dogs that were used to create the Bull Arab um just aren't around anymore. Like the the calibre of the bull terrier, the calibre of the greyhound, um, the GSPs are probably still where where they were, if not better today. But um, yeah, those other those other dogs aren't really around. And if you were to try and breed them today, it'd take you ten years to um actually get it right. Um, and you would have to spend a lot of money and you'd have to be ruthless with your selection process and what keeps moving on and what doesn't. So um if I was in a different area where I hunted pigs flat out, I would probably try. A Bull Arab, but it is very hard to find a good one. Um, and yeah, they just want incredible money for some of those that still look like the original Bull Arabs. Um, but uh yeah, I think something a bit faster for me is what I'd still like because uh as much as I am getting into pigs these days, I can't get away from the foxes. I I have to keep doing it. Like I always had these ambitions of moving up to the territory, and then I think, oh, like I would miss me I'd miss me foxes. And I have a have another mate that I um hunt with a bit, he did move to the territory and uh he spent three years up there and I never thought he was going to come back and he just said oh I miss I miss me winter football and winter fox hunts, so he's moved back now and he's bought a house here. So yeah, I yeah, it makes me second uh second guess about moving up there.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:51

It's it's a funny thing. If you talk to a lot of guys that shoot coyotes in North America, it's what they do. They're coyote hunters. And they're doing a great service, you know, the the the way that it affects numbers of animals, even like moose, you know, by taking their calves, like elk especially and white-tailed deer, they're in plague proportions, but they don't hunt elk and they do they do it for their friends, they do it usually they've got a permission uh a property, sorry, that they were raised on or they had permission on where they had coyotes, but they're passionate about it. And there's something different about you know, guys who get into fox hunting and yeah, and do that kind of work. It is does get in your blood, I think.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:29

Yeah, no, the the foxes have definitely got me um definitely got me hooked, and yeah, that's pretty much what I've based my personality off. Like uh there's a few people that just call me red dog because uh that's I just yeah, that's pretty much all I do, and I'm just so as much as I do it, I never get bored of it. Um while I've shifted off to hunt pigs and whatever, I keep coming back to the foxes and um I love what I do and I just I love hearing from the farmers that they haven't seen the fox in ages and their yields have gone up in their lambs and um I just I know that I'm doing the right thing. Uh I know I'm making a difference in what I can.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:05

So You're a conservationist. You do a lot more than people who boast about being conservationists and doing other m seemingly more virtuous pursuits. It's think how many light animal how many animals you saved.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:17

Oh, I'll I would love to know the amount of animals that actually get saved from removing these foxes, like whether it's sheep or someone's chickens or if it's um any of these native animals that I listed earlier, or and while that list is large, I really haven't barely even scratched the surface on um on these animals. There was definitely a lot of animals back when foxes were introduced that weren't documented and probably never got documented and never will get documented because they were just eradicated by the foxes. So 100%. And that's really sad.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:50

Fairy wrens, I'm sure there are more species of those guys, the ones that were a little less flighty, ones that are on the floor a bit more, like brown nesting birds. There's it's it's really is devastating what they do. And people don't want to challenge it, they don't want to even think about it because they don't want to realize they don't want to accept the reality of how we need to go about it.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:08

Yeah, it's pretty funny. The people that uh are against it, um against all forms of hunting, they don't live in areas and they don't see it. It you'll never find someone that actually knows what the foxes are doing that oppose it. The only people that oppose it that are just uneducated about what happens. Um and unfortunately those people are just uh closed-minded and they never want to listen to a thing. You could say you could say the foxes are breaking into houses and killing babies and they probably still wouldn't care.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:39

It's true. You're you're totally right. Um you've been saying that you've got just recently gone into pig hunting. Is that local? Because everyone would have you believe that there's not really a pig problem in Victoria.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:50

Oh, there's definitely pigs here. There's um pretty much any state forest, state park, there's pigs in it. Um while you don't see them very often because they're smart, they're like ghosts, they are pretty much in every single forest. Um, and it takes a special type of dog to be able to find them. So you might have a ripper dog up in New South Wales that consistently finds, you bring them down to Victoria Forest and you you won't be able to get them. Um and it also doesn't help that hunting pigs with dogs in Victoria is is illegal and um it's uh a lot more polluced than anything else because where the pigs are, there's normally deer, so the GMA are normally poking around um and you'll run into the GMA and they'll uh get you in trouble. So there's only isolated places where you can actually hunt um with dogs, but they're not allowed to lug or anything, so they've got a bale. Um and yeah, it's it's it's crazy. There pretty much every forest has pigs here in Victoria.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:48

Interesting. And it'll they'll only reform that when it becomes a bit of problem that you can't manage while it's uh only small numbers. Do you know if it's coming from other areas or it's released because of domestic pigs or what the situation is with the Victorian population?

SPEAKER_00 1:33:04

There is small highways from the Murray River where pigs come down from. Um but there's definitely these populations around here. A lot of them are half domestic, and it doesn't take long for a domestic pig to go uh go feral. Um while pretty m my opinion is pretty much every pig in Australia has some form of domestic pig in them as well. They're not pure they're not all pure feral. Um but um yeah, it's whether they were put there by irresponsible hunters into these forests or someone brought them back from somewhere to put in a sty, or there was a pig farm and they got out and they eventually bred and evolv evolved into these feral pigs. Um you're never really gonna know how these pigs got there or if they did eventually come down. So they pretty much it seems like ground zero is a northern territory in Upper Queensland, and they're just slowly progressing their way down um and even over in the Kimberleys and coming through Western Australia as well. They're just progressing their way down until they're gonna be completely widespread. And people don't understand these pigs, they're mature very, very early and they can't and they don't actually have a heat cycle as long as they have feed and water and conditions are optimal, they will just keep pumping pumping litters out like the whole time. So if they're in a good spot, they'll just keep pumping them out, pumping them out, pumping them out. And yeah, they're just everywhere.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:35

Yeah, it's not that far away. You know, New South Wales, there's they're they've there's serious problems. And people just don't appreciate how detrimental they are to the environment because pepper's cute, you know? That's the problem.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:48

Yeah, people just don't see um I feel like the people that uh d oppose pig hunting and like, oh yeah, they turn over a bit of soil or whatever, but um it's not just native animals that um are getting destroyed by any of these invasive species. There's actually native um plants like uh what uh Richard was saying on your other podcast, like these plants that were common to him when he done his um his um was it botanical science, they're not common anymore. Like there's just Australia is just overgrown with grazing species.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:23

Um and yeah, we're it's just I don't I don't even know what we what we can do really eat them would be the would be a good idea, but definitely people uh take taking up the mantle, getting after it and hunting them, it's it's something which is essential for future generations to be able to enjoy what's left of the Australian wildlife. Um quickly, so when it comes to getting into it, just so people know, how what do you need? And how do you go about getting permanent? What do you need full breastplates and finders? And is there a massive amount of stuff you need to get into it? And how do you go about finding permission to go after it?

SPEAKER_00 1:36:01

So is is this just for pigs or is this all types of dog hunting?

SPEAKER_01 1:36:05

For a dog, yeah, for pigs and foxes, let's say either one, either or and both.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:10

Um, biggest thing is permission to hunt on properties. So don't be one of those people that go out there and see a good creek and go hunt it. Like most farmers will say yes to you if you say that I'm hunting foxes or I'm hunting pigs. Um the pig hunting game is a lot harder because they mo every man and his dog literally uh is out hunting pigs. Um there's a lot less fox hunters in Victoria, so I could pretty much go to any farmer here and say, Hey, can I come hunt foxes? And they go, Yeah, yep, yep, here's a map, off you go. And they they love it. Um and then pig hunters are renowned for not having permission and um going into places where they're not supposed to, and some of these hunters are real bad and they'll cut a fence or something like that. But farmers need to understand that we're not all like that. Um and if you were to have a couple of hunters on your property, that's going to be two people that are working for you essentially, going around your property at late times, multiple times a week, more traffic, and we're actually going to reduce the amount these other people come to those spots, like we're basically another set of eyes on your property looking around, probably going into places where you don't normally go, um, and yeah, looking at stuff like the the amount of times I've been out hunting on a property and I've might have been pulled up or something like that, and I see a spotlight off a ute coming down a road or whatever, and they pull into a paddock or whatever, you turn your lights on and start going, they tail it out of there. Um, yeah, so the biggest biggest thing for starting out is having a place to hunt first. Um and obviously you need to get a dog and you've got to find the right dog. Um, but before you even get into the dog's yeah, permission, then you also need correct housing. Like don't just get a dog and think it's gonna live in your backyard because it's gonna chew something, you're gonna crack the shits, and that's it. You need good pens, um, you need to make sure that you're gonna be able to afford it because dogs are expensive as much as I hate to admit it, they are expensive. Um but yeah, so and then medical supplies, like vets are great, but they really do sting you for stuff that you can do at home, and obviously they want to try and limit what people do at home, but um it's just so expensive because there's no um government incentive on vet supplies or anything like there's no Medicare for dogs, so everything comes out at full payment, and that's why everything's so expensive. So um and they're looked after better, like the vets might put them on a drip, stuck them in a cage, and just see what happens. But if they're at home, they're getting constant supervision and you know what that dog's mood's like and you can look after it better. Well, that's my opinion. Um so I pretty much do everything at home. Um and a big thing getting into dogs is you need to have a mentor. Um, this is my opinion, you need to have a mentor to know that you're doing the right thing because in dog hunting there are things that happen where dogs chase stock or something like that. You need to know, like you can't trial and error with that type of stuff. You really need to know. Um, but it's just the same as when you were growing up being taught gun safety, your dad's always gone, check if the breach is clear, never point the gun at anyone, always keep it to the ground, always keep things unloaded. You've had someone to teach you, so you really need to have a mentor, so you need to be brought into it by someone um so you like learn properly and learn the right things. Um that's my opinion. And I had a lot of mentors, I've had lots of friends do it, lots of um older people that have um taken me under their wing and shown me and um many people I've met through social media, like you're constantly learning every single day. And the amount of information that I've been given by people like just in the last week is is insane. Like you're always learning.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:11

Um so and then when it comes to equipment, do you always run a locator collar? Do you always want a a breastplate when you're out going at pigging?

SPEAKER_00 1:40:18

Um it definitely changes on the dog for pigs with um protective gear. Like there's there's always people that are out there saying that they've seen more dogs die in a breastplate than um a neck collar or whatever, and it all depends on the dog's technique of when how they hold the pig and everything like that. Um I always try to give my dogs the best protection possible. Um, so all my dogs run plates. Um, Frank pretty much only wears a neck collar most of the time, just because he's experienced, he knows how to stay out of the way. Um, because when he's in a breastplate, he works a lot differently. He feels too restricted. Um, and it's I've seen it time and time again, and so are my friends, and they all agree with me. As soon as he's in a neck collar, he hunts better, um, and he just knows how to stay out of the way, he knows how to dance with him. So Frank isn't just stupid hard and he'll go in and hold it no matter what. If he gets flicked into a bad position, he'll let go, reassess, and then come back in, or he'll pull off to a bale and just bark at it until I get there and show up with backup. But that sort of only happens with um you're more like fighting pigs or large pigs or whatever like that.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:30

Right. Very interesting. Yeah, because I just was of of the mind, you know, big plate's better and so but yeah, like a nice, decent size protective collar is more advantageous sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:41

Yeah, it yeah, it definitely always um depends on the dog, and then there's some people out there that just run neck collars um for a start until the dog shows them what they've got to earn the breastplate because um yeah, it's it's that's a funny one. Um I reckon you should always protect them to the best of your ability, but if you throw a plate on a pup and then head out, they just walking around stiff-legged, they have no idea what's going on. So a neck collar's good to give them that protection and tool. They show you that they're working properly, um, and they've actually learned how to hunt and everything like that, and they've known what they're doing with the pigs, and then you can put them in a breastplate, it's not gonna freak them out, they're still gonna work the same once you put the breastplate on them. Um but yeah, the neck collar is always a necessity. I would never run anything less than a neck collar.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:29

Interesting. Have you ever seen Squid the Snag Dog?

SPEAKER_00 1:42:31

Squid the Snag Dog, yeah. I have I have seen that. The uh the lugging uh snag dog.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:37

The lugging uh Dachsan. That's uh crazy. I just was thinking about him with a with a with his own little chest plate on, he's got himself a little miniature one.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:47

Yeah, unfortunately, I d I I it's a bit of a gimmick that uh running the the chest plate on dogs that's more because they're more likely to just get stood on. They're never gonna be down up high enough to get hit with a tusk. It's just a bit of a gimmick, but um yeah, everyone has it it is quite funny, but um yeah, I think those real small dogs have no place being uh unless they're a bailer, um, they have no place in pigging because it's you're just bound to end up with a dead dog, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_01 1:43:15

Yeah, you think yeah, I know. I think yeah something I mean that's they're they're hunting dogs, but they're not supposed to be getting after the boars, is uh yeah. I just uh remember seeing him he popped up on my on my face on my Instagram getting after it.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:27

Yeah, it is quite funny though. Um what knives do you use? Um I used to just use uh whatever um I could keep an edge on, so I worked in the Avatar, so I I've always known how to sharpen a knife and everything like that. Um but I've recently um switched to MVR knives. He makes them out of New South Wales and they are incredible quality. Uh I actually left it back in the Ute, but um that's actually one that uh him and I designed together, um, which will be going on my website soon um once I get a few more photos and do a bit more uh testing. But from what I've done, all tests uh go like I'm ecstatic with it. I wish I went to a a knife like his a long time ago. Like the the edge quality is it just stays sharper than all these other steels. Like I've had these other pocket knives and I've had to stone them like quite often because I hit them on a steel and um like I can get them sharp for maybe one or two scalps or whatever like that, or if I'm um dressing out something and um these knives that he has, like I very rarely have to put it under the steel. And um, when I do, it's only a very light couple of swipes and it's back to where it was. And he also, if anyone is interested in his products, um he offers a lifetime sharpening guarantee. So if you ever get it to a point where oh this knife's not cutting anymore, and I don't know how many get sent back to him, but you can send it back to him and he'll sharpen it again the way he runs all his processes. Yeah, it is an incredible knife. I really like it. We've called it the bounty hunter because of the Fox Bounty, so it's it the the idea about behind it was having a larger like nail before the blade, um, because some of these smaller ones that I have on my pocket knife, they've got this tiny little rigid bell right at the base of the blade, and when you're going to scalp, the skin slides up over the blade and catches on that, and then you're just pulling and it's not catching. But having that larger piece there, as you're going, it's basically just feeding the skin straight onto the blade because it's a bit high.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:33

You'll have to show me interesting.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:35

Yeah, it's it's definitely uh it's an amazing blade. I I really like it.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:39

I do love a good knife, that's that's awesome. Um, yeah, you'll have to let me have a look at that before because I saw it on your waist, you carry it kind of scalp but in the front, don't you?

SPEAKER_00 1:45:48

So you Yeah, so that's that was another thing that we designed. So um I put out to a few of my mates what what would they want in a blade. And the biggest thing for having those um fixed tang blades is they're just always in the way all the time. So that scout carrier, I actually really enjoy it. Like I can have it on my belt and I can go on the quad, I can jump in the Ute, I can walk through the creek, I can bend down into dens and and it just uh it never gets in the way. And then it's on one of those um uh like a hybrid uh kydex sheath, so it just stays in there.

SPEAKER_01 1:46:19

Is it a hybrid? Is it got leather on the outside?

SPEAKER_00 1:46:21

Yeah, it's got that's how it's mounted to the belt. I'm literally making one at the moment. I'm about to make one for another knife, but yeah, yeah, it it's amazing. Like I was always worried about it falling out, but after using it a few times, I don't even worry about it anymore. Like it just sticks, it just never comes out. Um and yeah, it's just so handy to have on me all the time. Like when I'm out pigging as well, I still wear it in conjunction to my uh pig sticker because as soon as I get something that has a good set, or if I happen to catch a really good pig that I want to mount or whatever, at least I've got a sharp knife on me all the time. Like I normally run boners, but it's a pain in the ass because you can't carry a boner with you all the time. Like you can't always have the Ute with you in a sheath. And um, yeah, like this is the cloth the best knife that I've had um opposed to having just like a geyser six-inch boner. Um, like wow, those knives are really good. They just you can't take them everywhere and they fall out of the sheath. And um, I wouldn't even know if you'd be able to find a sheath for them properly or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 1:47:20

I make my own, I make them out of kydex myself. You can just they're they're pretty straightforward to make, but yeah, I know what you mean. It's uh it did look nice, and that cross draw is particularly good. Like um gamblers in the Wild West time, they're six shooter, they would always have it cross-body because it's when you're bent down and you know you're in the hole, you're doing that, having it cross broadbody is the best way of taking it out, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:47:42

Yeah, and uh one of my friends um he's right into having knives and all sorts of stuff, and uh he uh he really likes the way it looks because it he's always a I I don't even know how you say it, he's always thinking about the worst case scenario, and he's like, Oh yeah, if you if you have this big boy and it busts up the dogs and it turns on you, you're gonna be able to just pull it out quickly instead of trying to undo Velcro to get your sticker out and and stuff like that. I'm like, oh yeah, well you can think of it that way, but I don't think I'm ever gonna be in that situation.

SPEAKER_01 1:48:10

Do you not worry about because it's going it might you might catch yourself on a weird one?

SPEAKER_00 1:48:14

Yeah, I've I did think about that at the start, but after using it, like to get it, like you can't just rip it out willy nilly like you s yeah, you grab the grab the handle, so you've always got con you've always got control of um of both the sheath and the knife when you pull it out. And if you were pulling a knife out while you're running around and stuff like that, you're probably asking for trouble. So I've never had to pull it out just for no reason, like willy nilly. I've always been controlled, taking it out, and yeah, it's still great.

SPEAKER_01 1:48:43

Sure. So you were just mentioned a second ago, so you have some merch and a website. You have a running dog, is that correct?

SPEAKER_00 1:48:51

Yeah, so I it started off, I started making heaps of videos because I I uh I make a lot of videos and video most of my hunts because I love talking about dogs, the hunts and everything like that. And one thing that I ran into flat out was telling a story and people saying you're talking bullshit. And it drives me mad. And the only way you can prove it is say, no, look, like if we like even today, if I said, Oh yeah, the terrier went up this this three-story tree right out to the top of it and chased it along this limb, and then the fox jumped out into another tree, and then it came down that tree, and then the dog's caught- It just doesn't sound real and people are- It does sound like you've made it up, but yeah, exactly. So and I started making heaps of videos and um then they started gaining traction on um Instagram, and then I have a Facebook group as well that has um a whole heap of members. Um and it's a bit of a by swap and sell for puppies and dogs and whatever, but people put their um their own videos up in as well, and I love seeing other people put up videos and and uh looking at their dogs and seeing how their dogs work and everything like that, and it just started to grow and um and I I gave it a name Red Dog Running Dog. And uh then I was like, I'm actually pretty proud of this. I might make some hats or something, and that's how it started. And um then I done a few orders of hats and they sold straight away, and then I made another order of hats and they sold, and then I was like, buddy hell, I need to um need to capitalise on this, I suppose. And um yeah, so I made the uh the got uh the best camo to make a new logo for me that was a bit more professional. And um then I went through a supplier in Melbourne to do print on demand shirts because I didn't know what the um the market was going to be like. So they uh you put the order in on the website, pay for it, and then they make it and send it to you. Um and yeah, it's been going really well. So I've yeah, got the website, I've got shirts, jumpers, and all uh female stuff as well. Um and kid sizes as well. I love seeing me mates, they've got kids, they've got this, their little four-year-old, five-year-old kids running around chasing these massive dogs. So I just love watching seeing they send me photos, they've um they've got their their kid there, like real young kid, and they've got two big dogs beside them, they've got their arms draped over them, they're just sitting there swinging their legs, and oh, it's loves I love seeing the youngins getting into it, and um yeah, so and I I'm very happy with the products as well. It took me a long time to set it up because I didn't necessarily want to make any money out of it, I just wanted it to pay for itself. Um and I didn't want people to pay good hard-earned money for something that's crap, so I had to test everything and um give shirts and jumpers to people that I know are gonna be really hard on them, and um they've come out really well. Um, so I'm super happy with them, and I'm just about to go see a local local mob uh 40 minutes from here to do Pilbra shirts as well, because a lot of my mates are all farmers and they're not really a shirt or a hoodie type person, and they're gonna they're gonna jump on these um these Pilbara shirts, so like proper work sh work shirt style.

SPEAKER_01 1:52:01

So I love it. Here's the thing people want to get behind it because they get into it, it's something they're passionate about, but also when people are getting into it, they want to be able to go somewhere and go, what kind of knife should I buy? What what are the people who've been they're experts in the field, they've been doing it most of their life. What do they recommend for locators? Where should I be getting my collars and my chip? If you've just got a website where you've got some decent merch, you've got, you know, like I need a hat, I wanna I want to advertise the fact that this is something I'm proud of that I do, and I want to cut through the chaff. I don't want to go and Google it and find somebody who's like barely had a dog in his life who wants to give me advice. I just want to go somewhere. It's an amazing idea.

SPEAKER_00 1:52:40

Yeah, and I I um I do get a lot of messages and everything from multiple people over Instagram and and everything like that. And I I really pride myself in the fact that I make time for everyone that has any questions, and that that goes out to anyone. Listen this as well. If you have any questions about dogs, I'll send you my number, you can call me and you can ask me anything you want, because uh a rising tide lifts all ships. So I'm happy to help anyone because it's only going to grow something that I love, um, and it's only gonna get people out in the field, get rid of these foxes, get rid of these pigs, and it's gonna be better for everyone. So some hunters are very closed off, they don't want anyone doing what they're doing, they're stealing my foxes, they're stealing my pigs, or whatever, but we're all working to a common goal at the end of the day. That's my opinion.

SPEAKER_01 1:53:27

Awesome. Maybe give them just your Instagram and not your phone number. It's a mental mentors. Where can people find you?

SPEAKER_00 1:53:34

Uh so uh on Instagram I'm Caleb FJ Holden uh yeah on Instagram. Um it should pop up pretty much straight away, and uh just Caleb Holden on on Facebook and uh just Red Dog Running Dogs on the uh um oh Red Dog Running Dogs on Facebook as well, but um that's a uh a page that I've made recently and then the website is just yeah, if you search up Red Dog Running Dogs, it should come up and um you can find all the all the merch there as well.

SPEAKER_01 1:54:03

That's amazing. Is there anything else you'd like to share with the people?

SPEAKER_00 1:54:06

Um yeah, so I do have a couple more things to touch on. Um the social media side of all the hunting things, so social media is a great tool. Um I've met some great people through that, um, like uh Ryan Ryan Scaife, he's really good in the pig hunting, he hunts pig cane, uh like cane, uh sugarcane up in Queensland for for pigs, and he has a wealth of information. He is a great person. Um Tim Heffernan, he is an absolute character, he's great. His his Instagram is private and it takes a bit to make the cut, but he uh he's actually taught me on how to um well he's taught me a lot of stuff about pigs and everything that that like that behaviour and everything as well, but actually how to uh preserve skulls and tusks and everything like that, because before that all mine cracked, I had no idea what I was doing, and he basically gave he's took time out of his day to show me, he didn't know me from a bar of soap, he took time to show me from start to finish how he did it, how he boiled it, um a few little trade secrets that I'm not allowed to uh not allowed to divulge because he said it'd kill me. But um and um but yeah, he took to it just that's the hunting community. They're just happy to help people that are actually genuinely interested and not sounding like a bit of a fog, if that makes sense. Um but uh social media is also a bad thing because some people can put up stuff that um hurts the hunting community, stuff that doesn't look like you're doing the right thing. So you do have to be smart about what you put up as well. Um and I am loving the amount of hunting content coming out now um through the form of just pages showing you walkthrough of what they do in any type of hunting, podcast, Patreons, and um the UHunt app. I don't know if you've seen the Uhunt app, it just has all hunting aspects, it's like a Facebook just for hunting. Um, Jesse Farr does a really good job of that. Um and uh some of the podcasts that I listen to at the moment, um, this one in particular, I'm really excited to see where uh Wild Takes goes. Um and Chasing Boar Tails, that's a really good one for anyone that wants to listen to really experienced guys talk about dogs, dog behaviour, dog breeds, pigging, all types of things and all those little little trip uh little tricks. Um uh Boring Australia's been on there as well, and uh they've they're about to get some really high um caliber people come on as well, it's really gaining traction. Um and if you can uh get past the American accent, Dixie Doggers is pretty good. Um, but uh yeah, they're they're their characters. I've been on there as well, and they had a really great time. Um and what else have I got? Uh and baiting. We didn't actually touch on baiting. What what's your uh opinion on baiting? I'm not a fan.

SPEAKER_01 1:57:04

I really hate baiting, especially like 1080 stuff like that. I've seen dogs die from baits that have washed in. They're definitely canon uh birds with it as well. I think it's a lazy approach that the government jumps on to try and make some sort of difference, and I don't I hate it.

SPEAKER_00 1:57:18

Yeah, I I uh I definitely agree. Most of our native birds of prey are obviously carnivorous, um, so they feed on things that have died or they take the baits themselves. And um I won't get into the nitty-gritty of it, but uh as someone who's seen a dog take bait, it's really not great. And these these baits can be picked up by birds and dropped somewhere near a dog park, and someone could lose their pet that they love. Um, and as you said, it is really just a lazy way of doing it, and um yeah, I just uh I really don't like baiting. It is a a lazy approach. Like hunting does work, but the government really loves to spend our taxpayers' money to do these things where if they just put a program in place and allowed hunters to have access to more of these places and regulated a bit more so it was safe and everything like that, I feel like we'd have a much better um result. Um, because yeah, I'd I'd really, really uh oppose baiting. I think it's terrible.

SPEAKER_01 1:58:20

Yeah, and you can get into the nitty-gritty, it's it's not a nice way to go, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 1:58:24

No, they basically run around foaming from the mouth and uh they you there's nothing you can do once they take it. And I've heard horror stories of people's dogs taking a bait and jumping in the back of a dog box and throwing up while they're um while they're feeling it, and they people in the Ute were none the wiser, and three of these dogs have just licked a bit of the spew and then they've they've opened up the dog box and there's three three dead dogs and I I just don't think you should leave that power laying around. Like a gun is good because you are in full control of it. A gun just can't accidentally kill someone on its own. But these baits put out anywhere, like yeah, I just uh chucking them out.

SPEAKER_01 1:59:06

They're also chucking them out of helicopters and stuff, like aeroplanes and stuff up here. Yeah, and they're going down in people's properties, and not even that, not just that, but a well-placed bait that gets hit by the rain goes into a creek and that creek runs flows into someone else's property, it could be hundreds or thousands of kilometres away, and you can kill someone's pet or their working dog with that bait if you are not even if you are careful. Yeah. It's it's terrible. I really am really am against it as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:59:33

Yeah, I had a close friend uh lose a dog from a bait and yeah, it's just not nice. Like you just you're so excited with this dog, how it's going. Like even people with kelpies, imagine walking through the um like moving mobs or whatever, and you go past a bit of grass where a bait's been dropped and and then the dog goes, Oh, what's that? Snaffles and then the dog's gone and there's there's no antidote and it happened as soon as they take it, they're done, and there's nothing you can do, and it's just a very terrible way to go. Um and like they're talking about ethical hunting and um like it's barbaric and everything baiting is barbaric. It it is a terrible way to go.

SPEAKER_01 2:00:21

A lot better.

SPEAKER_00 2:00:21

Yeah, as long as they don't see it, they don't care. That's that ignor ignorance is bliss, is what I wrote down in my little thing here.

SPEAKER_03 2:00:28

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 2:00:28

Yeah, peop as long as they don't see it or whatever, they don't care. That's why people are happy to eat stuff from the supermarket and then ridicule hunters because they see the hunting and they don't see what where their supermarket meat comes from and yeah, it's just um everything's a bit backwards these days, I think.

SPEAKER_01 2:00:46

Yeah, it's unfortunate, but um it's these conversations like this that are gonna make a difference. I appreciate you bringing that up. Yeah, I've not touched on that before.

SPEAKER_00 2:00:53

Yeah, yeah, you've really um you really gotta push for it. Like some of the people that um opposed to taking wild game and consuming it and everything like that, and they still eat meat from the soup market, like I've I've done my own chickens before. I guarantee if those people that think I'm a weirdo for eating rabbits and uh shooting deer and consuming deer, I guarantee if they had to kill and prep a chicken, they would think twice about having a chicken because chickens are the most disgusting things ever, trying to they smell so bad when you're when you're prepping them and cutting them open and gutting them like as yeah, just as I said, ignorance is bliss. As long as they don't know where it's coming from, they don't know how it's being treated, they don't care.

SPEAKER_01 2:01:37

So well pump through full of God knows what and also I think if people were to have to prep their food, we'd have a different perspective. The only reason people feel this way is because they're disconnected from it. If they did were connected from it, they would just be like us. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:01:51

It's it's all just uninformed and uh not educated. And I'm more than happy to show anyone, but uh I just I hate this uh closed-mindedness that a lot of people have these days, like they make their mind up on something like I'm super open-minded, I'm happy to listen to anything or listen to any, like even a vegan wanted to explain their their theories behind me and whatever. And pretty much aside from I like I will listen, but I will say apart from I don't like meat, that's the only thing that they've got. Like, don't give me this crap about evolution or anything like that. Like, meat's good, meat is king.

SPEAKER_01 2:02:31

They're we love it for a reason because it is actually real food, it is the best thing for sustaining us, it's not just protein, it's full of so much, and you never find someone who's doing carnivore that's like, oh, I just need to make this steak look like a tomato. But everybody who's a vegan wants to have tomatoes that look like sausages.

SPEAKER_00 2:02:49

Yeah, that's yeah, no, that's that's a good way of looking at it. Every everything's uh so if like yeah, you don't try to make um uh what am I trying to say? Like every all these vegans they're always trying to make meat products not out of meat. Like, why are you still trying to make meat products out of out of plant products? It's because you're missing it and you want to be happy about your decision about eating these things, but um, yeah, no, nothing beats a good steak, eh?

SPEAKER_01 2:03:18

100%. 100%. And one day we're gonna realise that plants feel pain in some facet as well and they're gonna be, I don't know what they're gonna do.

SPEAKER_00 2:03:26

Yeah, no, it's um it's pretty silly, and like a lot of these uh these vegans they want all like all these uh animals out on the farms and everything to not be consumed and everything, but like where are they gonna go if they're not being like farmed, basically? And then if you if they don't have that income, like they're not gonna make their food, their bloody plants and crops and everything like that, like you yeah, yeah, you can't you can't stop it. It's a part of life. These vegans are just delusional.

SPEAKER_01 2:03:54

On that note, Caleb mate, thank you so much for coming on, and thank you so much for taking me out and showing me uh showing me around and showing me your spectacular dogs.

SPEAKER_00 2:04:05

Yeah, no, it was it was my pleasure.

SPEAKER_01 2:04:10

Thank you everybody. We hope you enjoyed the show. Wherever you are, whatever time of day it might be, good morning, good afternoon, good evening, and good hunting.