Wild Takes
A Wild Origins Australia Podcast.
Wild Takes brings you raw, unfiltered conversations with the people working at the front line of conservation and hunting. From scientists and traditional knowledge holders to adventurers and land managers — we explore the big ideas, tough decisions, and wild stories shaping the future of our natural world.
Hosted in partnership with Wild Origins Australia & the Origins Foundation.
Wild Takes
Flint Or Steel
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Jack Spinks is an Australian traditional bowhunter, outfitter and guide. Today we talk about getting after it on the goats with stick and string, and compare stone and steel for traditional hunting points.
Good night, I'm Jack Spinks. And this is Wild Type.
SPEAKER_02Today on the show, I'm talking to Jack Spinks. Australian traditional bow hunter, Springfellow, Fletcher, and much, much more. Today's Wild Take is that stone beats deal when it comes to traditional hunting points. Today on the show I've got Jack Spinks, premier, premier Australian boat hunter, unarguably, and arguably the best goat hunter in the land. How are we doing today, Jack? Good thanks, Smiley. How are you? Yeah, good thanks, mate. It's great to have you on. So just what have you been up to, mate? I mean you've got plenty of fletchings in your quiver. What's been going on?
SPEAKER_00Oh mate, a bit of everything. You know, I'm a you know, I'm a dad to two young girls. Um got plenty of plenty of things on the go all the time. I'm sort of one of them fellas that gets bored quite easily um and needs variation in my life. So in between uh working for myself, um, yeah, we have an arrow brand, Benny Fansom and I. Jabsticks. Jabsticks. Uh some other bits and pieces. I've um make bowstrings as well, and um also a lot of the times uh I'm at bush guiding um hunters with a beginner bow hunting course, so that's just a few of the many things that I've done. It's just a few things.
SPEAKER_02So you've got jabsticks, so jabsticks is a top-of-the-line arrow manufacturer.
SPEAKER_00It's uh carbon arrows, I believe. Correct, yes. So we um long story short, Benny and I were punching through a heap of arrows. Uh when we were hunting, we were, you know, we'd use anywhere from a dozen, two dozen, three dozen on a hunting trip. And anyone that knows the cost of arrows understands that it's not a cheap exercise, so we decided let's uh let's make our own. So, you know, we weren't putting the cost of, you know, all these arrows all the time and going home and saying to the missus, listen, we've um just blown through six, seven hundred dollars worth of arrows, we need to get more for the next trip, you know, next month. And that wasn't the smartest thing, so we we looked into our own arrows and through the last you know, bit over twelve months we've gone back and forth, back and forth, and back and forth, and we're finally very happy with the the uh the product we have nowadays, and it's been um really popular in the honey community and been quite successful with it, which has been really rewarding in itself.
SPEAKER_02Amazing stuff. So jab sticks outdoors, supplying top of the line arrows to the masses. You've also got a line of clothing, is that correct? Of camo clothing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so I forgot about that one too. Um yeah, so same sort of scenario. Uh I got to go by on camo, camo's expensive, and uh I had a different vision on what I wanted my own camo to look like. When I was a kid, I had always wanted to have my own arrows, my own broadheads and own camo, and uh made my own bows, so um yeah, a few of them I've ticked off. And uh the camo, yeah, I just had a vision for what I needed, what I wanted, and uh originally it was just gonna be for myself, and uh then a couple of mates wanted one, then someone else wanted one, then yeah, we started to um offer it to the public. So what's that what's that what's that brand? Uh it's called Amphibious Land in Water, so why did you go with Amphibious? Well, 'cause there's only one animal in the world that scares the shit out of me, and it's saltwater crocodile.
SPEAKER_02Oh, I thought you were gonna say frogs for a second then.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and uh it's you actually see on the logo there it's um Oh, there's a salty in the middle. I didn't notice that. And if you look close enough on the um on the actual camouflage pattern itself, it's got croc skin in embedded in the Uh where are we? In here. Because crocs are one of the only animals that can actually hide in plain sight. And uh there's a reason behind their camo pattern and how they behave and how they hide and how they hunt, so we wanted uh put that into a into a pat and the other animals are likes of snakes and other reptiles, and you know, so I took bits and pieces from that and put into a a pat and interesting. So hence the name land and water.
SPEAKER_02Another interesting fact is that the ridges on a crocodile's back, they don't just look good on a pair of boots, that actually creates countercurrents. So when they're just an inch above the water, they don't create ripples. Those ridges on their back create countercurrents. That's really interesting. I actually did try and devise my own uh I did devise my own camou pattern and I use and I think it's good to use animals. That's spectacular.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well great idea. Oh well I don't know how many times, you know, I've been hunting or up to the Northern Territory or mates have been, and you know, nearly walking on top of crocodiles, you know, a four metre, five metre crocodile in a mud pit in the middle of nowhere that should stand out, you know. How many animals have been taken that way? And they're a very good animal that can, you know, hide in ambush. Um they use what they've got to their advantage. And um the same as the the patterns also got it's almost a bit like uh uh we have carpet snakes at name, carpet pythons. Uh-huh. And um, you know, one of those things in a tree with the patterns and the you know, especially the diamond head ones like um you know how they can hide in next to nothing, you know, and that's that was sort of the inspiration for how I went that way.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean it works. The fact that these animals even exist shows that they are good enough to be able to evade the best eyes in the business. We're actually coming to you from shearing sheds today. We're in the beautiful New South Wales, just over the border, and we are on some spectacular goat property out here. We will get to that shortly. So um, we've touched on the camo, the spectacular arrows that you're producing, that I can testament to how great they are. You also have JS Custom Strings, which I don't know anyone who's serious about their trad belt hunting who doesn't run JS Custom Strings. People who I meet that have no affiliation with you seem to uh that I don't know how they'd even I've heard of your strings run your strings.
SPEAKER_00How did that come about? Same deal, mate. Um I uh went hunting with Carl Brown, aka Captain Bowman, probably 10, 12 years ago, even maybe longer. And uh he said he made his own bowstrings and I thought shit, if he can do it, I can do it. And same deal again, there was just a I needed something, and I um you know, I the quality that I was buying from the archery stores wasn't good enough. Um, you know, they were falling to pieces, that noisy, they were just shit, to be honest. And um so I yeah, I remember sitting at a grain crop, I was working there as a a casual harvest, and I was sitting there, I was meant to be working, but I stole some string from one of the sheds there and I it was YouTube and how to make a bowstring and eventually ended up making, you know, basically the starter one, and I said, Oh shit, this is this isn't too bad. Bought a couple of rolls of material and and started from there and same deal. Went through um, you know, a thousand different types of materials and brands and how to do it, how not to do it, what makes this better, what makes that and again it was only for myself. And then sure enough, mates be like, Can you make me one? Can you make me one? Of course. And I was like, you know, I was like, ah, well, you know, offer to the public as custom builds, and sure enough, I think I reckon I was probably 18, 19, so I'm 32 now, so whatever that is, that's been on for that long. So and I think, yeah, it it's funny seeing um yeah, a lot of the barners in Australia and and even overseas running my strings. So it was a way of me of being a part of their hunt without actually being there.
SPEAKER_02So what materials are we talking for the specs, guys? What do you recommend?
SPEAKER_00So a lot of people just talk with your basic, which is your like your D97, uh, your B50, B55. So that's just your generic brands. It's um so generic material, it's it's quite soft, it's flexible, um, it's not going to damage your bow. Um, you know, then that's pretty much just what has always been available. Then you can jump into your fast flights and uh all that sort of stuff. Those materials aren't safe for bows that don't have reinforced limb tips and all this stuff or and and older bows and that sort of stuff. So then um I was just doing that, then I jumped into the likes of like BCY 8125, uh, which is what I personally run. Why is that in fevered thing? Well, it's just it's fast, it's quiet, and you can nearly make it without sciences, like quiet, you know. So any string that's quiet without sciences is gonna be extremely quiet with sciences. Um and then uh we tried X99. I didn't like it, but X99 doesn't stretch like 8125 because there's more strands in it. Um so ideally if you're going to Northern Territory, change the humidity and the heat, probably run X99, which is gonna be a um a safer material for stretch, which so you're not gonna be dealing with brace height issues and tuning issues and that. So um 8125 does stretch a little bit, but for that one trip a year, it it's worth it to me to be running down. So yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, right. Interesting. So making spectacular strings, arrows, camouflage, you're an ambassador for Cayuga broadheads, you run Cayugas.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so um they're gonna ruin my um yeah, my wish to have one of each because um, you know, I've got the arrows sorted, strings sorted, camo sorted, made my own bows. Um, but as for broadheads, yeah, the boys are stuck with me.
SPEAKER_02So how are you feeling as far as broadheads? What's your uh what you what are you running at the moment? I know you can't talk about some stuff, but you know, what are the Um So like the Kyuga old school?
SPEAKER_00Um it's been something I've used for a long time now. It's basically all you need. For me personally, it's all you need. Um people have been killing animals for thousands and thousands of years with two-blade broadheads. Um, you know, I was a massive fan of three-blade broadheads, I still am, but for me for a tradbow, really. Yep. Near the old Wenzel Woodsman. Right, yeah. They're like three to one ratio cut, that's I ran then. Used to be able to get them out of America for 35 bucks for six. Really? When I first started. And they sharpened well. Um, but then yeah, ended up with uh with the Call Yuga boys, and because you know the boys are really good friends of mine. And I love supporting them, but their products just will speak for itself. And yeah. I remember I was using a different brand there and I was having issues with penetration, it was just doing my head in. I went through every different weight arrow, FOC, E FOC, you know, changed everything. And um I uh got some cyugas shortly after and found out that the whole time the broadband was my issue. You know, because I put the cyugas on and I couldn't keep an arrow in an animal. It was just the the penetrate like you've never seen before. And I was you know, I was blown away, so that led me down to changing arrow weights and this sort of stuff and um I've run the yeah, the cyuga old schools for a while, especially the single bevel, massive fan of single bevel. Why are you why are you into single bevel? Uh, because it saved my ass more times than I can count. Um on those marginal shots I've just seemed to be able to recover animals. Um Yeah, a lot of people there are tests and studies that people say they don't twist on impact and they don't twist inside animals, and you know, um I don't know how true most of that stuff is, but I've had personally I've had better penetration, much better penetration, much better blood trails. Uh I find extremely easy to sharpen, you've only got to sharpen one side, you know. Um and the longevity of a broadhead too, so and especially when you hit something hard, instead of embedding itself in a bone, that twisting action will cause the bone to pop out or like a rib, you know, uh rib vertically hit a rib and it'll actually twist it out and you know, yeah, it still penetrate. So um I've used them on everything from rabbits to buffalo and I've been uh fortunate enough to shoot a few, you know, buffalo bull now with them. And I've had complete pass-throughs and arrows have disappeared at the outside with a stick bone.
SPEAKER_02So I've seen some jelly tests and I've seen them go through the ballistic and they I they do twist uh uh a single bevel. Now the argument is that the integrity of the edge isn't there because you don't have like you know the strongest structure is a dome and the second strongest structure is a pyramid, and then so having a double bevel means that that edge is gonna be a little bit have a bit more integrity, apparently. But yeah, I mean from what I've heard, in fact, well I run old schools and I do run single bevels based on what you'd said before, Sam.
SPEAKER_00Well, dead is dead, you know. Like if your arrow's going through an animal and it's poking it outside and it's falling over in 20 metres or thirty metres, you know, trying to make excuses why it did or didn't work's probably uh a waste of your time, you know. Like uh there's a handful of us that have been running the same setup, like the same broadheads and that sort of stuff, and the results are the same, so how do you feel about bleeders?
SPEAKER_02Because Kayiga do a pilot cut that takes a bleeder, and I I I I do like the style, but I never run the bleeders. But I mean Fred Bear did, and he uh he was arguably one of the best to ever do it.
SPEAKER_00I um look, bleeders uh they have their place. Me personally, I'm not a massive fan of bleeders. Um you know, because I not because I don't like them, it's the fact that just I don't think I've ever needed to use bleeders. I've never seen um out of a tradbow the reason that bleeders were um that much of a benefit that you know I'd I'd take the extra time to sharpen the bleeders and put bleeders in, and obviously there's other bits and pieces and components to put a bleeder in a broadhead. Uh but in that, you know, a lot of the best blood trials, best penetration, quickest kills have been from straight two-blade broadheads for me. So I used to run the um the pilot cut 175s, and I I did use them with bleeders, you know, especially for shooting uh the likes of goats and deer and that sort of stuff, you know, they're they're brilliant. But when I found that I was hunting more um, you know, solid pad pigs and that sort of stuff, um it was in my best um best intentions to use, you know, just a s two-bide um just to help with penetration on those bigger tough walls.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, they they they do a zot, which I never looked at. I didn't I don't know why. They're slightly rounded tip for some reason. I just like the old schools, they're the closest thing to like a traditional arrowhead style, so I never never bothered. But I needed a ton of 150s for something, and they'd I'd literally bought all the last 150s and um old schools they had. Uh someone I know was going on a on a show and needed to have a lot of arrows, so then I went and bought all of the Zots they had as well, just because it was the closest thing to a traditional looking arrowhead. And this show, this television show, explicitly said they had to look kind of traditional. And I was really impressed. They're I think they're a spectacular head.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, the Zots have always been uh Ian Summers, he's the man behind the Zot. Um, he's got I'd say 100 years bowling experience. And um he's put it into the Zot and you know they're called the Penetration King for a reason. You know, those things were just they're exceptional for lighter panic bows, thick skinned animals. Um they just get inside stuff, so you know, it's yeah, it's a incredibly engineered broadhead that um is super successful.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, because there's those grooves that run along and they what do they do? There's there's something behind that, it's not just a funky design, is it?
SPEAKER_00So that the heat so you've got the with the zeit, you've got the drivehorse technology, which is the the feral that's actually designed to twist on impact, um, in flight and on impact, so it's gonna help with penetration. Then you've got the ha I can't say it, the the hematec hematec I can't pronounce it. Anyway, it's it's to help with um uh with blood. Hemotech. Something like that. Yeah, yeah, I can't. Um yeah, so that helps with the you know, the blood helps uh better blood trials, bleeding, you know, it lets the blood out instead of you know, you if you've got a a two-blade broadhead that's wedged in something and um obviously you've got your s your skin, your meat, your muscle, you know, all that's against it, you're not gonna be able to get any blood back, you know. So I'm sure those channels are you know sort of behind them.
SPEAKER_02I find there's like if you get an old school and a Zot, it's like looking at an aeroplane and a B-52 bomber. You can really see there's uh there's a lot of engineering gone into it. It's great stuff. And you're also the an official vendor for stalker stickbows, is that correct?
SPEAKER_00I wouldn't say official, um but South's uh a good mate of mine. I've known South for a long time. Um and obviously in Australia we have issues getting uh like high quality bows into the country, typically because of import tax, um, wait times in America, um you know, pricing currency exchanges, um, the dollar up and down.
SPEAKER_01So I've um I've been selling bows for South for probably ten years as well, and if not more.
SPEAKER_00And it's pretty much just that instead of getting instead of having a wait time in America of like could be anywhere now from six to five years for a custom bow, um, we can try and get bows in that are affordable, uh, allows the the currency to um so we allow for the currency so we get a decently priced bow, high quality bow, well performing, um, you know, landed in the country without the wait time. So Yeah. It's um there's been a lot of people in in Australia that's been looking for that and it's been very hard to get them in. Um but it's just been something that we've been doing to try and help out the community.
SPEAKER_02It's amazing because this is the thing. There are a couple of companies, Sauka, Black Widow, that people would love to purchase, but you you might be shy of spending a couple of grand on a bow, but you're definitely going to be shy of spending four hundred, five hundred plus dollars on just getting it into your hands.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, I think um so the last one of the last bows we brought in, um, we ended up paying five or six hundred dollars just in import tax. Wow. Then you're looking about anywhere from four to five hundred dollars in shipping, depending if you got a two-piece or a one-piece or a three-piece. Um, you know, then wait times and insurance and that sort of stuff. So with a currency, you know, you you might be paying two and a half thousand dollars for a bow. Then you add on other bits and pieces, and by the time you get set up in Australia at a quiver, you know, you probably look at close to $4,000. You know, and that's hard to justify. Whereas um I was working in the South and I said, listen, we need just I try to call them like the the workman's bow. I want a bow that's not overly pretty, not overly um, you know, overly engineered, nothing with fancy on it, nothing that can break, something that's just basic standard, works well every time, and it's affordable. And through that we're able to bring we'll bring it in bows uh, you know, I think about 1650 um delivered or something like that. Like it was, you know, that's to your door, to anyone in Australia. So through that, people they skip the wait list. The wait times of God knows how long nowadays. Um and the other thing too with the American market is not many people shoot over 45-50 pounds. And here in Australia, everyone wants to shoot at least 55-60.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean some of you guys are up there 60, 70 pounds casually, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so plus there's two different sides of the market. You know, you know, the wait times for a custom build is you know, if you want your 45 pound, or you know, South is able to make, you know, your fifty-five's upwards, and that's more applicable to us here. Sure.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I've got my I got my bow from you. I've got a stalker jackal, 60 pounds, reflex, deflex limbs, and you see, you know, a kind of like lower end version. I mean it's still walnut, high grade walnut stock with a core laminate, with tiger limbs. The t tiger wood underneath the clear glass is spectacular. What you can't hear, guys, is there is hectic rain going on right now. Fortunately, I should be able to edit that out, but we are uh underneath some pretty serious rain in some seriously dry country generally. It's uh the chances of this happening are pretty spectacular. Now, on top of all your other accolades, Jack, you also do some wonderful guiding work. I've actually been fortunate enough to third wheel it while Jack's been taking someone out. We can't talk about the particulars of why he's out training at the moment, as it's uh very hush-hush, but we uh we've been out and Jack's been training someone in the art of hunting with a traditional bow over this pretty spectacular goat country. How did you get into guiding?
SPEAKER_00Uh I've I've been doing it my whole life. Um, anywhere from when I first started hunting, I always had a passion of just taking people out. And people said, Oh, can I come hunt? And I said, Yeah, no, it's like I don't see an issue with that. And uh like I'd I was only thinking about it a couple of days ago. Like, I've probably taken out, you know, I'd nearly say a hundred separate people over the the years, um, guiding, but it was never I never got paid for it. I wasn't guiding, I was just going hunting with people. And then uh it got to the point where it was starting to affect my um day-to-day job and you know, uh away from my family and kids and misses and all that sort of stuff, and um it got to the point where it was, yeah, I sort of got to be paid to be doing this because you know, there's uh as I was getting older and took up more responsibility with different things, the hunting side thing was gonna have to either be pushed aside or become part of an income. So that's how it, you know, adventurer into that. And then and I've got a passion for there's a there's there's a part in the market where people don't teach. There's things in the market people won't teach or don't know about and um in this industry and I'm I'm passionate about trying to put that forward because when I first started bow hunting, I had absolutely no one. I had no no mentors, no one to help me, no one to show me. I went through every um every heartache, every every problem you could imagine with gear, equipment, choices, and I had no one and you know, this is you know before the internet was full of it, which wasn't that long ago. Um and through all that I just thought, shit, if I can save everyone the heartache, um I'd I'd like to help people so they don't have to go through what I did.
SPEAKER_02See, the thing that's important is to no, there's two different types of guiding. There's the guide that guides you to a spot, points in a direction, tells you to draw back, shoot, and then you get an animal. And then there's the guide that guides you on how to be able to go out and do that yourself. And that's the difference. Most guides want you to come back next year for another guided hunt. You put it up on the wall. And you say I got that, when in reality you were just they were working the wind, playing the sun, working the animals, knowing the lay of the land, knowing where to be, and they just put you there. But the uh the guide that actually shows you what he's doing as he's doing it, that's that's that's the value.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, like I I'd in hindsight I'd be happy if they never come back because I I hope they don't need to come. You know, I I'd like people to go, right, once they leave here and what we're doing, go, Rotto, I've got the tools I need now to do it myself. You know, and and hopefully I've given them the tools where they can go home and go, Rotto, I'm confident enough now to go out in the bush by myself. Um, this is what I need to do. And um I'd be more than happy to, you know, get the photo of some saying, listen, I've I've gone out after, you know, after your course, and I've done this and I've shot my first goat or pig or deer or whatever, and I'll be like, to me, that's worth everything.
SPEAKER_02Not just that, I mean I'm I feel pretty accomplished in my goat hunting ability. I've spent a lot of time chasing goats. I in fact lived off of goats and lived out in the bush and had to shoot to eat. I mean, I've I've done a lot of hunting and I feel like I was pretty competent, but I've learned so much just over these past couple of days. Just like different things, different aspects of their c character, personality that I didn't know. Different little things that you might take from, say, hunting deer, you might think I'm a great deer hunter, and this is going to be the same. It's not. It's amazing how quickly you move at some points of the hunt and then slow down, covering that distance, distance that you have to cover in order to not just be chasing asses for three or four hours. So it was really spectacular to see though and realize that you don't know what you don't know until you know. That's right, yeah. So let's say someone comes to you, this is the thing I find with a lot of people, is they want to get into something, but they just don't know. What do I wear? What do I shoot? What do I do? So technically speaking, someone can come to you and get fully kitted out with everything they need from bow to string to camo to everything.
SPEAKER_00Technically, yeah. Yeah. So we um you know, and there's avenues in the market too where you can actually purchase all this sort of stuff, you know, either through us or someone else. Like I'd I didn't give a shit if you don't buy it from me. Um, you know, I've got recommendations on what you should do and what you should not do. Uh, but there are bows in the industry that you can buy for 150 bucks. You know, you don't need to spend $2,000, $3,000, $4,000 on a bow. You can spend $150 and come out and still do the same thing. Um especially when people aren't sure what if they want to pursue bow hunting, if it's gonna be for them. If it's not gonna be for you and you're not too sure, well, I'm not gonna push you to go out and spend three thousand dollars on a bow. I'm gonna push to say maybe spend $150, come out if you enjoy it, then later later on down the track we can look at buying. I'll help you buy something that's you know a bit better quality, that's gonna last you a lot longer.
SPEAKER_02For sure. We were just talking about how crazy some of these Chinese knockoffs are at the moment, and they're uh they're pretty pretty spectacular. They're never gonna be as good. You can feel the difference, and when you go out and if you get into it and someone lets you have a little go on their bow, you're gonna want to get one.
SPEAKER_00Oh, that's that's right too, but uh on the flip side of that too, it some of those bows, like some of the best bows I ever owned, were the Samic bows back in the day, which are discontinued some of them, but they were about 300 bucks.
SPEAKER_02Those sages are still around, aren't they?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well I had a Samic Devastator, a Samic Squall. I've still got a Samic Squall. For example, the Samic Squall was the first better bow I bought when I was a kid. Um and I hunted with that forever. Uh 60 pounds, 60 inch. Now I've had it I shouldn't, but I left it in one of the canoes at home um from boat fishing, had it set up for bow fishing. I drill I tapped the side and put a AMS retriever on it for shooting cut. I left it in that kayak for about 12 months, in the rain, in the sun, you know, and that boat still shoots perfectly, hasn't no limb twist, nothing, the finish has come off. But that's a $300 Chinese bow from back then or Korea whenever they were made there. Yet some of these high-end custom bows would have fallen to pieces ten times over. So there are sometimes there is quality in those things, and you don't need the biggest and the best to get into this sport.
SPEAKER_02For sure. But what's really nice is getting a bow, as long as you look after it, as long as you don't just chuck it in the back of the U, leave it out in 50 degree weather, so on and so forth. As long as you look after it, you're passing that down. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00And there's always a difference between quality and um obviously you're gonna get well normally you should get better um better life out of a quality bow. You know, whether it be the heat, they might be a bit more durable. And that's that's what I push people for down the track is to buy a bow that's not gonna be the prettiest or look the flashiest, one that's gonna not fail on those big trips or something that's built better, or you know, that's that's more important to me than aesthetics.
SPEAKER_02Sure. Yeah, for sure. I mean yeah, the aesthetics are nice. It's lovely when you get a a nice piece of wood, nice, nice, beautiful. Like I've got a bit of Walnut, and it's just I've got it on the wall. It's on the wall next to my bed, just getting to look at it, you know, it's it is nice to have, but again, you can spend a couple hundred bucks, get out after it. It's that thing that you know the you pay less money for getting a a decent enough trad bow, but you've got to put in the hours, you know. You pay a bit more, you get a compound bow, you put in a little bit less time, go out and spend get a get a gun and just whatever. But yeah, yeah, it does uh take a little bit more yakka to get good at it. Now uh what knives are you using as well?
SPEAKER_00Um, I don't like replaceable blade knives. Yeah, like I've I've had halons and that sort of stuff, but um one, I don't like how long the s the blades last, because I never seem to last too long, and two, I don't like the fact that blades just get thrown everywhere. Um, you know, like even a scalpel blade blunt, you know, in a rubbish bin or something, in a rubbish bag back the Ute after a hunt, you know, it's dangerous as well. But uh I've been running um Robert Herbert's knives, R and N blades for a long time now. Uh I've got a series of knives he built that uh there's a skinner, or a couple of skinners, there's sort of like a bit of all-round knife, it's sort of like a s uh it's mixed between a boner and a skinner. Um and then I've got one of his HFKs, which is which is like a it's more of a longer sort of almost like a filleting knife, but like a mixed between a butcher's knife, a filleting knife, or just an all-round hunting knife. Uh and then I've got a which is sort of similar to one of his raptors, is a bit like a tactical style um knife that sits on my harness, and that's that knife has a pretty horrendous job of just doing all the nasty shit. And um it's probably one of my favourite ones.
SPEAKER_02Now you've got one, a really nice one that was made by him, I believe, that has got some special material on the handle with some sort of animal.
SPEAKER_00Uh Himalayan Ram horn is um so the series of knives, they've all got that one except the one I carry on the harness. That one's just the one on the harness is just I think it's G10 or Makada. One of the two. Um it's just a really durable material for the shit jobs that knife does, but the rest of um yeah, I I don't really use the rest of them too often. They only come out for just occasions, but they're those that series I'd I'd like to hand down to my kids.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, nice. Yeah, I just the like the uh the engineering is the attention to detail, just the the back of the knife, the way it's been, they've taken it off at the along the spine and just just there's loads of little details that you can tell it's been there's a lot of love that's gone into those knives.
SPEAKER_00I Herbie's he's a magician when it comes to knives. Um he's great blood and uh I'd I'm happy to support him. And yeah, I've never had an issue. Um he carries, I think, a lifetime warranty. And um, you know, you if you snap your knife and you bought it through him, I don't know, even if you're the first or second or third owner, if it snaps, he just replaces it.
SPEAKER_02Amazing. Um is there the option of you getting material from the animals that you harvest and getting him to, you know, if you want to make it off camelbone or whatever.
SPEAKER_00I'd I'd I dare say so. I'm always bouncing ideas off Herbie. Um like for example in the pack there I've got that axe, you know, that's that's one of Herbie's axes that I I I went to him with an idea um and he he said, Listen, you've got basically got meat at your disposal. If you've got an idea or you think you can improve something, or there's something in the market's not there, let me know. And um he must stay awake all night because I I'd send him all these ideas and he would come back with a drawing. What about this? And I was like, yeah, right. And then, you know, we'll do it might do a bit of testing, whatever. And um so for example, that little hatchet it's got, it's only probably about ten inches. Um fits him a pack, it's light, but we got it made for knocking jaws out of pigs, because you know, I was using my other knife, the the Raptor one he made, and uh that was just wasn't the best way of doing it. And I said, listen, we're going back hunting, we're shooting anywhere from eighty to a hundred pigs, you know, in three to four days. I said, we'll need to save some time. So he sent me out this act as a prototype, and yeah, it was brilliant, absolutely brilliant. And um, so hopefully, hopefully down the track, um, yeah, there might be some production lines of those as well.
SPEAKER_02I do think so. The the Havalon knives I do carry one, I've got one in my bino harness, but I think it is very important to just have a general purpose. You never know, you know, if you're gonna have to dispatch a pig or as you say, that one you've got is it was really designed, wasn't it, for taking the head off buffs?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it was uh we I needed something on the buff low that was A, you could hold an edge really well in the in the territory, so um, I believe that one's made to cut steel. So um really good edge retention. Uh you know, quite comfortable in the hand. It's also it's a mix between you know, it's it's not a skinny knife, it's actually really good to skin with. Um it's also a really good sticker for when it shit hits a fan, or you you know, if you're chasing pigs or whatever, or you know, you've got a pig that's down, instead of shooting with another arrow, you can just go just you know stick it if need be. Um but yeah, on the when we're taking the heads off Buffalo, it was just to get in the joints, and I can I can wiggle that thing like a crowbar in there and have no issues. And like I said, I can get a buff head off in you know, under 20, 30 seconds, you know, with that knife.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so very important. I know a lot of people who don't bother, they don't bother with a knife, and I don't sometimes. I like to have like a my binary harness is pretty much a one-stop shop for if I really need it to be, you know. Got a little torch in there, sorry, a little headlamp in there, little knife I can get away with ditching the rest and having nothing on me. But yeah, I think it is I agree, I think it's important to have.
SPEAKER_00What do you you run a sorry? Yeah, well my binary harness, all that consists of just about to say I was about to say, what what uh what are you running on the page? Yeah, so I run a Marcipule pack, it's one of the um the magnetic ones enclosed. Um I I did have the other one that was open, but I used to get debris and shit in there and as you know, salt bush and that. Um so I've got the enclosed one, but all I carry on there is um one of those workshop sharpeners for the knives and the broadheads, which as a guide you always sharpen people's broadheads and knives.
SPEAKER_02On one of the side pockets.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, on the side pocket, yeah. Then on the other side pocket got a wind puffer. Just one of those um I think it was a smoke in a bottle once upon a time that chuck all sorts of stuff in. Uh and I've got that that knife of Herbie's on the side on a on a special clip. And pretty much front pocket I've got uh fox whistle and baby wipes. Perfect. And yeah, I've just I have a mental note that always replaces baby wipes because I there've been a few times where I've been um caught out.
SPEAKER_02It's funny actually, what I've got in my front pocket is a pair of foam ears just in case I need to get to get out. Um I've got my deer license thing for just in case you know, you know, I'm in Victoria. If I stray ever someone, you know, just in case someone wants to see it, they're welcome to. And uh a packet of tissues that came off of an airplane, a little packet of tissues, just so they're there. But yeah, I think I might replace it for some wet wipes because there's nothing like the luxury when you're out in the bush.
SPEAKER_00They do dry, yeah, but um it they're better dry than wet than than nothing when um the time comes. But and uh then also yeah, terrible nose.
SPEAKER_02So, I mean, of all your hunting, you're best known for your goat hunting. Come from some great goat country, and you're very accomplished at doing so. What was it that drew you to goat hunky hunting? Was it just the availability of goats?
SPEAKER_00Definitely the availability. Uh you know, I'm only 40 minutes, half now, 40 minutes a block and funded that place for 17, about 17 years. Um but yeah, the availability. Back when I first started, like the goats were at the point where the farmers used to say, you know, put 30 under a tree with the SKS and just clean them out. You know, that they weren't worth anything. Um and yeah, like I could go out and I could shoot my dozen animals a day with a bow. Um, you know, do that way. Obviously on the place it was pigs and foxes and that sort of stuff, but yeah, goats have just always been fun, you know, searching for bigger, better, always got different character horns, different pelts. Um and yeah, it was just sort of just bread and butter stuff, you know. It was always something that I I could just go. If I want to go for hunting the weekend, I know I can go and chase a goat around.
SPEAKER_02I mean it's good challenging hunting. It's they're they're not exactly easy, they're not impossible, you know. It's not like chasing sample with us with a tradbow, so you get some nice stalks and uh yeah. I mean the first hunting I did in Australia, yeah. I love hunting goats. You have got an amazing knack for calling them in, don't you?
SPEAKER_00So far. Um something I've been developing the last few years, haven't got it fully developed, haven't got it fully figured out just yet. Um but there's yeah, there's been a few times where it's worked really, really well. It's been a bit quiet on this tube, actually.
SPEAKER_02We've had one one good run at it, but there's been there's been several opportun situations where I've had goats literally running at us. I've never seen it before. And it's technically a combination of three noises, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so you you're pretty much you're gonna be chasing um we call them a rape ball, which is sounds horrific, but that's how it literally is what's going on. It is, yeah. That's how goats will reproduce. Uh then you pretty much got to imitate that, you've got to imitate the noise of a billy goat that is um you know, he's basically he's pouring out a a nanny that he's got pinned in a either in a log or under a tree or in a bush. He's trying to get out of stand. Um then obviously you're gonna have the the high-pitched scream of the the goat itself, which is uncomfortable. Um and then you've just got to have the general noise of um bob goats around and you know, and that's what seems to be uh working. There are I have heard of other people doing it, but in completely different noises, you know, and it has worked, but I've never seen it work like this.
SPEAKER_02I'm um it's it's actually amazing to see the amount of time I've spent sat around because I don't have cover cover seeing what goats are gonna do, waiting for them to go over the ridge. Uh when they're especially when they're in that highly testosterone fuelled, frustrated sense. So what what goats are you bringing in? Are you you're not bringing in nannies with that sound very often, are you?
SPEAKER_00No, it it's it's very you can apply it to um like deer hunting as well. Like basically you're gonna have your dominant animal's always gonna hold the female, that's um you know the one that's the the most sought after. And then you're gonna have animals that are gonna be um you know, satellite bucks, satellite stags, you know, things that can't quite get in there. Doesn't mean they're not gonna be a big one. Um, you know, a younger, more dominant animal may take that female and you might still have an older bloke, bigger set of horns or whatever off the side that's still trying to get in, but he knows he can't compete for it. So pretty much depending on how razzed up they are, you know, anyone's a candidate. Um but generally it's it's one you'll see that's uh strutting his stuff for testosterone. Um with goats, especially he's got his tail curled up, he's got shit all down his front where he's been, you know, urinating on his on his beard and his chin, and he's throwing his head around like a you know, an 18-year-old gym junkie on droids at the nightclub. He can pick him from miles away. Um I think the furthest one I've had is probably four to five hundred metres come in. Um yeah, in a direct line, you know, and that'll that'll sprint in and but as we as we worked at doesn't always work. Um some days we've been able to pull some out, you know, off their bedding areas, just bedding and come in, but um there's definitely a definitely something we're still trying to fine-tune, but it it has worked for probably you know a couple hundred.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean, there were situations where they were heavily coveting nannies. They're not, you know, even one in the one in the hand for two in the bush, potentially. That's g it's understandable. But amazed the of what it's probably fifty percent of the attempts have ended in charging in goats.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so it it's one of those things that you can it's um understanding the mannerism of the animal and their behaviour, and you know, there's there's no point calling it one that isn't gonna work. Same as when rattling started. Um everyone's just went out to rattle deer just to see if it worked, and sure enough, deer would run in and see Omate there rattling, and then he'd no, I'm not gonna shoot him, and he sees the hunter, bug is off, all that's done is educated him. Um and then the same thing will happen to goats. Uh it's just a matter of like we've seen today, like we called uh these two up the first day, you know. We we try to call uh last night or this morning, and they were nearby, and they just spun and ran.
SPEAKER_02Snort straight away. Yeah, they know what's going on, so yeah, it's uh it's a wonderful tool, but yeah, as you say, it can be picked up on pretty quickly. They're not dumb. They are not the they're I mean they're still around for a reason, especially some of those bigger ones. What I found really interesting was I managed to get a shot off 52 yards on a nice, nice sized billy was the approach, and this is something that we do, especially as hunters, we try and we're we're predators, and we try and maintain that all the way. And what I would normally do, what I would always do, is if I'm stalking in and you think, you know, they're a little bit spooked, there's one of the three they've got, they've either seen you a little bit, smart you a little bit, or heard you a little bit, so you think you've still got a bit of a chance, you continue the same technique. You stalk in, you keep it slow, you try and keep your body down, you try and there's a real problem with that quite often because you are just looking like a predator. But what you did was the opposite. You came in, you gave them a little call, and then you were rustling the bushes, you're going nuts, and drawing that attention, making yourself look a bit just enough to create interest. Uh well, that was interesting because it's just something that I've never that I never do.
SPEAKER_00It it it's um well they're looking for something that's you know not normal. You know, you give them something that's not normal, and you know, they're gonna they're gonna bugger off. But if you give them something that they're used to, say for example, if you got what I was doing at broken sticks and bushes, they couldn't actually see me. They might have seen, you know, like through the salt bushes and that, they might see fragments of movement, you know, like you know, so that they can see that there's actually something in there moving. They can't pick out what it is. But then then there's familiar noises that are associated with with what they do every day. So there's, you know, the leaves, the sticks, the you know, whacking two sticks together sounds like two billies punching, you know, um, bits and pieces like they're still gonna be wary, but they're still gonna but they might begin to relax when they're in the mob lock. What happened? There was what, twenty of them in that mob. Uh, and they were they felt safe because they were in the open, they could see there's a whole group of them. They couldn't see what was happening where we were. They knew something was happening. Um but yeah, the curiosity got the better of them, and they actually started to settle down towards the end. And um a couple of calls here and there to trying to familiarise them with noises and you know, another mob of goats, and then yeah, you're a big fella. He um he lost interest straight away 'cause the the little little nanny was in season and that was his um downfall. Mm.
SPEAKER_02Turning broadside, not not facing forward was uh was a big mistake. Uh but yeah, beautiful goat. Hopefully you'll go up on the wall. I was happy with that one. Thanks again for that. Um how are you getting on with the rest of your Aussie animals? Have you got your Tradbow grand slam yet?
SPEAKER_00No, I've uh I I'm working towards it. Um I'm a bit slack on a few deer species. Um I'm after Hoggy, Chittle and Samba.
SPEAKER_01Uh sorry, ho Hoggy, Chiddle and Rusa. Um got the rest. Uh pretty much nearly all the other animals except uh Bantac, I think.
SPEAKER_00Um I is how many pockets of them are there in Australia? That's pretty much one I believe. In the world. In the world. It's the only huntable species. Only huntable, yeah. Speci uh only huntable area for bantag in the world.
SPEAKER_02Where's that? Wow, I said wow.
SPEAKER_00Sorry, where's that? Uh Caeburg, you know. I think it's uh national park, um, I believe, up through there. So it's um you can home.
SPEAKER_02I've heard we've got them because I was looking at all the possibilities. You know, you got camels, water buffalo things, but yeah, and I did hear there's some around if you uh if you can get on 'em.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. So it's um I think they're heavily regulated by the uh Northern Land Council and that sort of stuff, so there is a tag system for 'em, I believe. Um but yeah, it's uh pretty much um the price of it is way out of my reach, that's for sure. They used to be they dropped down a fair bit, a bit, but now I think they've jumped back up anywhere from eleven to seventeen thousand dollars for a hunt on a glorified Mercuir.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah, pretty much it is. That's exactly what it is. Now just going back to goat hunting a second, you did release a goat hunting DVD, is that correct?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, when I was when I was younger, uh I was always fascinated by Brad Smith's DVDs and all the other ones, and I was out hunting all the time. My girlfriend, um, she was my current partner now. She uh she always filming and that sort of stuff, so we put one together and it didn't, you know, I had a crack. It wasn't didn't last long, but um yeah, it was just the basics of what we're still doing now.
SPEAKER_02And have you considered doing another one or uh re-releasing the one you already did?
SPEAKER_00Look back at now, the first one I did wasn't that great. Um, you know, it had good intentions, that sort of stuff, but I think DVDs are a thing of the past. I think, you know. Or I'd love a YouTube channel, but the upkeep for a YouTube channel is might be a bit odd um my current situation in life with kids and families and that. So I have always filmed my hunts um best I could. Some days I just like, nah, don't worry about the camera, I'm just gonna go and hunt. Um and that's usually the day where something also happens and um there's a lot of it's filming your hunts makes you a better bow hunter because you have to be a good bow hunter to be able to a really good hunter, a really good stalker, to be able to set a camera up, know where the animal's gonna be, and try and get that angle of over the shoulder footage. Extremely hard to do, and that's why a lot of people don't do it, hence why people run um Yeah, those tacticams and GoPros. Mick Rodolfi's just brought out, got your six um like a head mount and bow mounted cameras for it to make it all easier. Um 'cause it is a very, very difficult thing to get right. And anyone that's filmed hunts with um cameras have realised that, you know, you could get a hundred hours of footage for two minutes of good footage. And um I love it. Like I love filming the hunts. I'd I'd love being able to go back and watch it and um but fortunately nowadays phones are just as good as a lot of cameras and you know, they're in your pocket, they're accessible, and once you're done you don't have to download it or bloody Bluetooth across, you can send it to your mate and like I say uh last week I was up a tree there in Will Canyon and there was just a a fork above me and I just jam a phone in it and go come in. I shot it and it captured the whole thing as if it was professionally done. Perfect angle, yeah, it was a great shot. Yeah, so it's um but yeah, in the future I'd I'd I think it'd be better if I had uh a camera crew follow me instead of me trying to do it myself.
SPEAKER_02Well you need hunters follow you, nothing's worse than a camera crew following you, yeah. Yeah, you need some some people who know what they're doing enough to know when to stay back and when to get the angles. Yeah, that'd be great. And I think it there's a lot of value there, it'd be great. Just little things that you you know, like uh just being up, pitched up in a tree, dropping some leaves in dry country. They know that sound you were saying, yeah. They come rushing over to that. It's little things like that can mean the difference between going home with some meat and not. So it's I think it would uh go down really well. Now what was it? Why do you use a trad bow? What's the thing that got you into shooting trad and why haven't you gone over to the dark side and got yourself some wheels? I started with wheels.
SPEAKER_00Did you, really? Yeah. Um when I was a kid, oh sorry, I didn't start with I bought my first bow, which is a little red zone fiberglass bow at ten years old. Um remember buying that for a hundred bucks, that's when I started archery or bow hunting. Uh and then uh our local gun shop had compound bows. They'd only just got them in. And big mum and dad, and they got me one. Uh it was a little I can't remember what it was, but a little cheap and nasty black and white camo thing, and I loved it. Loved it. Then it had no rest on it, had nothing. Like it was I'd but I didn't know any different. I thought this is how you do it. And then a couple of years later, um the shop moved and then you owners took over and they had this this perfect line compound with all the arrows and stuff hanging off it, and I I remember going to the shop going, Oh, that's you know, that's the coolest thing I've ever seen. I want that. And I begged mum and dad and um I got it for Christmas. Um and I hunted with that flood out. But through that process, I didn't have any money as a kid, you know. Um everything broke. Sights broke, rests broke, release aid broke, you know. And I I learned how to do, you know, tight E D loops and you know that. I ended up having to make my own um sites out of two washes, MIG wire and a screw. And went into the threaded inserts on the on the riser, uh, made my own rests, made everything. Um I've still got the bow at home now. Got new strings. I remember ordering a string and it cost me like 180 bucks or whatever, and came in. It was only one of the strings, you know, you needed the other string or other two strings or whatever for a compound. Um and like through all that, I was just heartache after heartache after heartache with the bow. And then I remember when I when I was young, I didn't have any money, I was like, my pocket money would go to dad, so I said, Dad, I need to use your credit card, I need to buy some gear. Right? Yeah, no, I was. And um, I used to fax it through instead of calling up because I was too shy I'd talk to them on the phone because I didn't know exactly what I needed. I'd look at the all Cock and Pierce magazine or catalogue and I'd fax through my order, I'd fax it back, then they're like, just ring us. I was like, nah no no. Anyway, I'd only ever have enough money for one hour. But the postage was more than the the arrow, so I had to account for the postage as well. So if I had 20 bucks to spend, I'd know I could get one hour in postage. Just w just one hour. Anyway, they used to ring ring up and go, mate, postage is worth more than the hour. Do you want to order more? It's no, that's all I could have thought. Because I'd get me, you know, from maybe from the rabbits or whatever I was telling you about. Um, you know, daddy's 25 bucks, give me one or two arrows, then the heartache of losing them, then trying to work out how to tune it, helical, why my arrows were just flying like shit, you know, it was just absolute heartache. Then um mum was working for the hack service, which is looks after elderly and does meals and wheels and that sort of stuff, and a community um health nursery and that sort of stuff, and she was looking after an old fella from Northern Territory that had one leg and he had a a uh recurve on the wall and a tube full of arrows. And mum was really quite nice to me and he said, Well, take that home for your boy. And mum rocked up home with a a right-handed recurve. It had a heap of um they told me it was American hickory arrows, but I think they were just poured off at cedar, had the old Davies broadheads on it and bits and pieces, and he told stories of how he shot buffalo with it in all the territory, £55, and and mate, I shot that thing until the bloody cows come home. Like I just shot it and shot it and shot it and shot it.
SPEAKER_02How old are you then shooting 55?
SPEAKER_00Um It might have been 13 or something like 13, 14, maybe. Um And then through all that, then I ended up buying um I just found it easier. Like just it was just uh having not having to worry about my sights, my rest, release aid, D loop, sh all that sort of stuff. I was like, this is simple. All I've got to do is just pull the string back, you know. And um, yeah, started hunting. I shot my first goat with a compound, and that was with a Tuska javelin broadhead and a gold tip shaft. And um then went to the recurve and yeah, then never looked back.
SPEAKER_01Wow.
SPEAKER_00I like I don't hate them, like I don't hate compounds, you know. I enjoy watching people shoot 'em. I enjoy shooting one of you know mates that have got one, like, because it's just like so new to me and weird, but um yeah, I've got nothing against them, but just for me, I'm I'm strictly trad.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's fair enough. It is I mean, until you start until you're getting into throwing spears and jumping on things with a knife, it's the ultimate. I mean, it takes all of that skill, the you know, the persistence and the heartache and everything else, and it is it's uh it's a real purist way of going about it. It's uh it's definitely close to my heart, for sure, though I don't mind a set of wheels as well, I must admit. Uh so you've also taken it to a the next extreme. So I'd say it's pretty extreme going out there with a stick and string and trying to get yourself some dinner, but now you've decided to go even deeper and start getting into making stone points.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, if if I can make it harder on myself, I will. Yeah, everything I've done in my life was chasing an extra challenge, chasing something harder, chasing something not many people have done. Um, and not only just do it at a a basic level, try and do it at a ridiculously like a high quality level. And um with everything I do, it's like well, I don't want to just be able to make a point, I want to make one that's perfect. And I'll just it's like a um it's a trade of mine where I'm just like I'll have to perfect this somehow and and I'll just I'll keep going and keep going. It might take me two years, ten years, twenty years, but um mentally I I need to be as good as you know the top five percent of the people that do it.
SPEAKER_02Well you're definitely getting now. I mean some of your recent points have been you could have found them in a Dalton Pit or you know some some cave in North America and no one would have better than I led.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and there's like I've gained a lot of um information that from Ryan Gill, Hunt Permanent. I've talked to him quite a fair bit. Um anyone else I can you know talk to that's done it, uh in Australia there's just no one that's doing it. Well that's the thing, you know, like there's It's me. Yeah, uh other than just ask two, like there's like if you ask a few people, you know, and um you know, like I I want to know more about it, I want to be involved in Morgan, but there's just the the amount of people here in Australia that do it, that actually do it, and I mean like what you and I doing, um actually making the stone points and hunting with them and being successful with them.
SPEAKER_02Well, I'm yet to I don't hunt with mine, I just make them and make pretty ones and make arrows and stuff, but I've yet to that was always on my list, and uh yeah, you've definitely spurred me to get more into it. In fact, yeah, just uh whip me up one with one of my points yesterday.
SPEAKER_00That was a bit of a um that's an experimental area because I'm I'm excited to see how the fletchings go, but it it's just one of those things that why not, you know, it's enjoyable to do, you know, and this you can get information from people all over Australia, all over the world. Um yeah, I'll make this nice head, you know, and they can show you heads they've made and knives and that sort of stuff. Then you find out they're money from blanks, right? Then they find out that they've imported, you know, this from this place and this sort of and then you know, they say, Oh, I'll make the hunting arrow. Then you look at the hunting arrow and you go, well, from my experience and what I've done now, that's that's not gonna work, you know. It transitions from tip to that, you know, all these tiny little factors is what I nerd out on. And um yeah, I've the ones that you know that you've made perfectly are the ones that work incredibly well.
SPEAKER_02Well, the one you smashed out for me yesterday was great, and seeing you like the using the pine pitch glue and made a flu flu out of and that was a great uh idea you had in the bush, just a flu flu out of a strip of goat that was literally running around in the paddock that morning.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, the goat we um we harvested some meat. I had this idea that I could use the uh you know, a thin strip of it's it's its skin with hair, wrap it, like a blow dart, and um the uh it would naturally stick to the the bamboo, so I scraped the bamboo anyway, so it got rid of that that natural waterproofing and hopefully it it'd stick to it. And we used the sinew out of uh one of the goats, um, wrapped everything up, had some pine pitch glue that we made in a tuna can and um and money or points. So I've seen no reason why it won't work. Heat um heat straightened the bamboo over the fire while we're sitting there making it and um cut the knocks with a knife and the all the grooves and that sort of stuff, and I I can't see why it won't work.
SPEAKER_02I think there's gonna be a decent spine on those as well. That Japonica, they were I was worried it was gonna be a bit too flexible, but that stuff I think it was it's gets it's got a guess got a good uh good stiffness to it.
SPEAKER_00And it th from my experience with Bambu and that sort of stuff, it's you know, like I've shot the same arrows out of like 50 pound Osage Bows and 65 pound Waddle and Compsite Glass Recurves, they've shot the same. And I don't know why like there you made me, I'd shoot out of my boat, you know, without a question, you know. And um they've held up as long as you you index the the the knock with the um the nodes, you'll be fine.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, right. Yeah, it's interesting. Anyone who's interested in giving it a go, there's a place called Bamboo Australia. It has every single I think it's sixteen hundred species of bamboo over a hundred acres. It's the most tranquil and creepiest place to be in the middle of. The guy just he's an he's an old boy, he'll take you out there, he'll show you where it is, he's on a moat because the stuff creeps like crazy. So it's on a it's on a moat you've got to get over there, but he's very accommodating. Uh there's also one woman in Victoria where I actually bought a plant that's going to be ready to go in probably four years' time when it establishes and starts throwing up shoot throwing up shoots. But um yeah, it's definitely worth giving a go if you want to get into it. But uh as as yeah, as I'm sure you can be testament to, bloody hard work learning how to do it.
SPEAKER_00It it is a lot of hard work, it's a lot of heartache, a lot of tears, a lot of broken points, and as we found out, even with yours, just like yeah, yours wrapped up in you know, tissue paper and that sort of stuff, and then it's still broke. Um but like from when I first started, and that's the thing, like I when I first started making them, I thought they were brilliant, you know. I thought I was doing a good job. Then I look back at them now and go, I I must have some good friends, you know, because they they could have said their shit, but they didn't um you know, I was able to shoot a water buff with one. I was gonna pass in a say one accomplishment. Buff with a stone point, crazy. That was a that was just a spare of the moment thing. I was just going up the territory for a hunt. I had some I'd been making the wooden arrows, um, as part of like the string business, that sort of stuff. I was um doing custom wooden arrows, custard footings.
SPEAKER_02So um Oh, some spectacular I really, really am impressed with those arrows.
SPEAKER_00They look amazing. Again, in Australia, we don't have that resource. Um, so I worked out how to foot arrows, made all my own jigs, tools, um, and I because I wanted to foot an arrow with timber from home, take it up there with the stone point I made, and have a crack at a buffalo with an Osage bro, one of our mates had made Linden um Is that Tiger Snake Bows? Linden from Tiger Snake Bows, he he sent us up two piece one. And yeah, had um Obsidian Point and pickled this buffalo at I was about 18 metres quartering on and he tipped over in about 40 yards. Bloody hell. And recovered the arrow itself and um unbelievable. So from that it was just like no one had ever done that before.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_00You know. So I was just yeah, nerded out on that, then uh I was like, well, how do I make this more primitive? Like more so you know, I've got the arrow down pat now. Everything on it is 100% um, you know, primitive. That's like either the shafts, the fletchings, sinews, everything. Um the bows we've we've got uh just Osage Orange uh and uh sinew bowstrings. So pretty much everything is showed. Just haven't I haven't put all of it together and and killed anything with it because I didn't want to go and just knock that off straight away, because then I've got nothing to work to, you know. Bit by bit by bit, you know. But um, yeah, manage some some really nice animals with the stone points.
SPEAKER_02What uh what are you doing for stone? Uh uh mainly where do I get it or what I'm using.
SPEAKER_00What are you using? Where'd you get it? What if you're willing to show? What's what's what's the deal? Good on most of it from you. Um obsidian mainly. Um but I I found a place there in Victoria that does it's like a crystal warehouse um that has all sorts of open stone. Really enjoying using Obsidian's great. I find it quite easy to work in comparison to likes your your flint, your chert, and that sort of stuff. But um there's some I believe it's ribbonstone shirt from Queensland that I could get from this the supply down south. It's very hard to work, but it's a very durable, sharp head, so it's worth the heartache to get it. And through trial and error and making my own tools and different boppers and you know bits and pieces, I was able to come down get to a a place where I'm like, okay, I'm I'm pretty I I feel like I'm comfortable doing this. Um you know, and when I first started making gravel, pretty much because that's all I was doing, just smashing rocks and yeah. But now at the point I can actually I feel like if I got a got a spall, I'm pretty confident I'll get a head out of that.
SPEAKER_02That's awesome.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, either be the muckite or I really like muckite because it's it's pretty crumbly and hard to work with, but if you get that nice yellow and purple section, makes a beautiful head. And um the next goal is to try and find my own, then uh I want to shoot a buffalo with like the f like a an upgrade. Um with the full full set, like full everything.
SPEAKER_02Like what kind of penetration were you getting on the bar?
SPEAKER_00Buried to the fletching. Bloody hell. So it was a 30 I'd say a 32-inch arrow, probably. Um obviously because having the point and you know, it sort of they end up being a bit longer because of the grooves and and that. And uh yeah, buried to the fletching's calling on and um if you make it right and you really t take time in um perfecting the transition, you know, the point, actually the design of the head and that sort of stuff. I've had pass-throughs on hyper annals.
SPEAKER_02It's a funny thing, because Australia did have stone talls, they did obviously they made stone tools, and the materials vary wildly. So the only real flint is down in South Australia, and there are pockets of obsidian and they're supposed to be chuck, but the problem is is that it's Aboriginal communities don't like sharing the resource. It's not that they don't like sharing the resource so much, but uh often it's tied to their lore. So they get to find out about this these materials where they are during their lore ceremonies when they come of age, so for that reason it can be quite a secretive affair. You might get a little piece here and there in trade, but they're unlikely. Very unlikely to be like, oh yeah, there's a there's a ton down the way. Um and a lot of it is can be quite rough and they like to wear it down, so finding good materials is almost impossible. But you actually have an Aboriginal friend who you got into shooting tradbows, is that right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, he um he he was had been bow hunting, um, and then you know just through spending time with him, we got him a bow and he's probably shot more buffer trad bow than most people you'd know now. Well just because he lives on country, he has them on his doorstep, um knows how extremely incredible hunter, you know, regardless if it's bow, womer, and spear. Um so yeah, he's um he actually tried ringing me around bush there this morning he's so he's I had to send him some arrows up the other day 'cause he's he's out of auristics. Oh he wants some more auristics for hunting and um they're sort of coming in the start of the dry up there now, so the boys are getting out there and running amark.
SPEAKER_02It's awesome, it's awesome to know that uh more Aboriginal people are taking up the stick and string because it's not special, obviously.
SPEAKER_00So Yeah, and he he loved it. He used to binge YouTube and you know, when I first met him, he's just like all I ever want to do is go camping and bow hunt. I've been watching videos, probably you've seen my videos and said, you know, I I I want to do that, I want to do that, and you know, we um I'm very grateful that we met each other and it's been been great. And yeah, he's I was there that day, he um he shot a cracking big old bull with his recurve. He was using a a 50 pound Samic Galaxy, like the the newer version of the Sages.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00All different spawned arrows, all different lengths, shapes, different broadheads, that sort of stuff, and um just goes to show you don't need the best of everything. And he tipped have this beautiful big old broomed-off bull that did give him a bit of a a tickle. He chased him a bit, and um yeah, it was that was a great day.
SPEAKER_02I think you say he's got like stone point dreaming, like that's his totem or something.
SPEAKER_00So I believe so, yeah. So the um his dreaming is the the stone spear blade. Um that's yeah, I was talking to one of his mates here the other day and he said, Oh, you realise his dreaming is stone spear blade, and after I'd shot the buffalo to stone point with him, he's like, I want to do that, and um it's just funny how things work and with everything we were doing and how we're doing it, we all ended up in the same place.
SPEAKER_02Amazing stuff. So it's good to get up there as well. It must be amazing to get out on country onto some of that beautiful country up there and NT to go out hunting.
SPEAKER_00Oh, it's unbelievable. It's it's one of those things that I've always wanted to do. It's not so much the hunting, like if you want to go and shoot a buffalo, go to go with an outfitter, just go and shoot buffer and go home. But I always wanted to go in the country there with the boys and just spend time and learn from you know, you can always learn something. Now learn how to hunt. You know, we think we're good at hunting, we think we've got great eyesight, we think we can do this. You go and spend a week with them and realize how far behind we are.
SPEAKER_02They can be dangerous. Have you ever had any uh unfortunate circumstances or know anyone who has? Because I've heard a lot of people obviously the Cape Buffalo is where the buffalo problem is, but those Asiatic ones, they they're no joke either. They're more than happy to give you a charge if they want to.
SPEAKER_00I've I've the first buffalo I shot, I ch I was um he charged me, he and another bull charged me, I shot him at uh three metres. Um lucky at the last thing I stepped sort of behind a tree and he he balked and as he balked he opened himself up and um I shot him, but I think the only time I've ever seen um charging or dangerous moments is when you know there's been a lapse in concentration. Um I was up there one year with Jack Crick and I and uh Ash Brown and Jack had shot this bull. Nice, strong, fit young bull, uh good set of horns, and hit him tickled him perfectly and his ball went down. And uh we did carry a backup rifle that trip. It was 4570, uh, Marlin, and we got up to this bull and um he'd been down for 20 minutes. Got over to him and he was on he was sort of on all fours but laying down, so he wasn't hadn't fallen over or and he was like, and straight away I was like, something's not right here. Then I buy nose and then he's like he's still breathing. And like you know, this something's gone wrong here. Like it the shot was perfect. We got in 20 yards or whatever and and uh Jack's jammed him again, another great shot, and his ball stands up and it's like he's full of life, and thinking to myself, like, at this stage now I've got one in the chamber, you know, ready to you know pull out back and get stuck in this thing. And um we're sort of caught out in the open a bit, and I remember shifting I was facing like this, but um like dead on, and I remember shifting my back foot about two inches to sort of try and turn myself sideways to if I had to go to shoot, I was right, and I remember it made this noise. I remember this bull prick his ears up and sort of look in our direction. And he didn't know we were there, we just heard something. And then and then I another arrow goes Jack shoots his bull again and it hits him good. But that bull associated that the danger, the the pain with what he'd just heard and seen anyway. Um this bull just flattened his head out and came in. And I shot him three times in the head with a 4570, and the arrow's the thing that killed him. And um So then I've there's been a few dummy charges here and there, then another last trip I was on, we had a bloke up there that was um you know, made some really stupid decisions. Had a bull that a very, very clever bull, and this is something I learned and I'll never forget, is that middle of the day in the territory, bulls are quite territorial. The Buffalo bulls are talking about. Um they don't like to run. They'd rather fight than run away in the heat because it's too hard to run in the heat. And this bull caught the the hunter out, and the hunter pretty much just turned his head and walked back to, you know, our direction. And um it it was a pretty straightforward stalk. Like everything was safe, so we we were off a couple hundred metres with the with the rifle, and the other boys were sitting there and like it's it's a safe, pretty straightforward stalk, he should be fine. Anyway, he made a heap of errors with um, you know, exposed himself out in the open, you know, didn't Had face masks, had shining face and this sort of stuff. Anyway, this bull's picked him up. And I remember saying to the boys, we've got a bit of a snippet of it. I said, I don't like the mannerism of this bull. He's just he was throwing his head around, he was sort of half snorting, kicked a bit of dust up. He was fit and strong looking, and I was like, he's a nasty looking bull, this one. Anyway, he he starts walking directly at the hunter, and I'm like, Yeah, right, well we've called a few in like that and shot him, but this play was hunting his inexperience in Buffalo. Anyway, then I see the hunter just walking directly at us out in the open, and this bull sort of darts off in the other direction. And I was like, that's that's a bit silly on his behalf, and you know, a bit weird for the bull to act like that. Anyway, I look up and I just catch this glimmer and I was watching the bull actually ran and started to flank the hunter. Went around the back side of him, got his wind, and when he hit his wind, I've got this this video of the hunter walking towards us, and you see the buff behind him, and you see him catch his wind, just throws his head up, looks over the over the bushes and I sorry over the grass and that sort of stuff, locks eyes with this bloke, and then just flat out 100% charge. And the bloke had no idea he was coming. And we're yelling at him, turning around, that sort of stuff, and you know, he he didn't have a will to live much longer than that day, I reckon. But um that bull had him covered. And the uh original fella we hunt with, he sort of he walked out in the open and and bluffed the bull and we had the like we had the I had the backup rifle and only 30-30, like you know, not not gonna stop him. Like it's gonna annoy him, gonna piss him off. Yeah. Um may deter him, but it's not gonna kill him unless I like hit him good. But as I put it up, the bloke walking towards me, the ball was coming directly behind him, so I you know, I couldn't, you know, I couldn't shoot if I wanted to, you know, at at the risk of hitting him. But anyway, um that was a great lesson, and the original fellow who hung me said, no, they don't like to run, it's too hot. They'd rather fight. And so that so from the middle of the days then we actually stopped hunting them in the middle of the day for that reason. Because we're so remote, we all got kids and family, it's it's not worth it. And um so we we let him go and you know, there's there's a few choice words when I mate got back and how it's silly and you know. Then a couple of nights later, um, Benny and I were hunting this bull and he was huge, big bull, like proper big, big bull. Ben didn't realise how big he was, because this is Ben's first proper trip buffalo hunt. And I was on the backup rifle. And um we never used to carry backup rifles, but then I'm not too proud to say I've got two kids at home and Mrs.
SPEAKER_02You know, of course. I mean it's just I mean it's just good practice just to make sure you can do quick dispatch, but yeah, I mean just for safety.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's not like I'm not up there hunting with them, but we've just got it, and everyone's feel safe and you know, you've got to have a healthy fear of buffalo to keep you safe and you know, if you if you're one of them people who go, Oh, you know, you shouldn't be hunting them if you don't have, you know, if you need to have a backup rifle and sort of stuff, like I don't really give a shit. It's just I've got two kids at home and I'm going home to and we you were hunting this bull and I had backup rifle with Benny shot. And he was with the mob of cows, and this time of year there was they were in mobs, whereas I normally hunt them later in the year and they're they're sold out. And he was a big bull. And um we started calling him in. So obviously with the first rules of calling him in, you're calling something to you, so they're gonna find out where you are at some stage. Anyway, this bull started carrying on like a bit of a you know, he's getting quite defensive of the the herd and the mobs and the cows and that, and he got close, we sort of started to push our luck because he was such a good animal, and it was getting darker and darker and darker. Anyway, we got to the point where Benny and I, like, like almost like had telepathy, said, Nut, stuff it, nah, we're calling it. Anyway, um, at nearly the exact same time, Ben's fifty yards in front of me, I'm behind, and I said, Nut, that's it. Anyway, because this board sort of circled around as we're calling and started shaking his head. Anyhow, I remember handing Ben 30-30. I said, point at that tree for me, can ya? And he, as he lifted up, could not even see any of the iron sights. Couldn't even and I said to him, said, I didn't realise at the time, because we'd pushed it into the dark so far, mm-hmm that if I had to defend him with that, I wouldn't it would have just been shooting off the hip. So that was another great lesson for us, um, in that in that regard. But I think the only time you ever get charged is when yeah, you've heard an animal or wounded an animal and you've let them see you. Um There's our stories where blokes have just walking through the you know, walking through a creek and just accidentally stumble across one, and when you're in that fight or flight zone of a buffalo, um they can charge. But in my experience with bow ironing, if you don't let them know you're there, you're normally pretty safe. If you move and movement is me and Ben had this argument, we will until the day we die. Um we called in this giant big bull and um Ben's shot him down the throat with an osage bow with um at about 30 yards. Beautiful shot. Anyway, he was if anything, he might have been an inch higher, and he's cracked the vertebrae, like just hit this vertebrae and this bull, and this bull's just just jumped back and started like dancing side to side, halfing and puffing. And um I'm on the video camera, just off the side of this one tiny little tree out the middle of the nowhere, so we had nowhere to go. And Ben's after he shot, he sort of pulled himself against the tree to hide. And I remember yelling at him and said, Don't you move. Like, and afterwards I said, Don't you ever move like that again. So I didn't move anyway through the whole thing. We go back and look at the videos, like he moved, but not as much as I thought. But because I'm standing out in the open with the camera, I thought it looked like in my peripheral that he's just climbed this tree. And I got this cranky bull looking at us out in the open. You know, it might have only been you know, it moved half a foot, but it's still movement, still tells him where we are. And um he said, What would you have done if that bull come? I said, I would have been up that tree. He said, Go on then. And I said, Right, eh? So I went to run up this tree, got halfway up, slipped, hugging it like that, slipped all the way to the base. The bull would bull would have just squashed me against the tree. So it's one of those things, those animals that you don't get any second chances with them. You won't get around them if they're chasing you. You think you can sidestep or jump, whatever. They can hit a 10 cent pace a tip of the room.
SPEAKER_02I do. I took a little charge. I was out trying to, I've not actually got one yet, but I went, I had the opportunity. Uh I didn't shoot the first one because I went into I mean you call it a paddock, it's thousands of acres, but I went, opened the gate, went into the area, and saw one straight away. I was like, I'm not gonna get that one. Didn't see another until I saw well what I saw, I was in and kind of buy some water, a few pandanases around me, a couple of trees, some scrub, and then I saw a buffalo come out, and then I saw it at a calf, but I was like, oh I'm not gonna not gonna shoot one with a calf. And then what I noticed was is that sh I wasn't a concern. She was looking at me and looking back behind her and looking at her calf and making sure they were out of the way, because I think it was more pity for me than what it was coming. And he came charging out and gave me a mark, and luckily there was a pandanus and I jumped around it, and then I think he was more concerned with what they were up to, and then he ended up pissing off, but I was lucky.
SPEAKER_00I mean I was you know it's a percentage thing, like anything. The more you do it, the chances are at some stage, you know, like 90% of bulls, 95, 98% of bulls will run.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, oh yeah, for 100%. I mean I'd actually so I was going out every weekend pig hunting mostly on this property up in the NT for a couple of months. I was like lucky to have this place and that I was allowed to get one buffalo and they were like kill all the pigs, but we actually do when we they do musters, they muster in the buff as well, and they just keep them in a paddock, wait for the price to go up so they can sell them off. But yeah, they said I could have one, but yeah, I mean that was the one time I had a negative experience with a buffalo after seeing buffalo, you know, once a fortnight for months.
SPEAKER_00So I like through all that I've um I've got my own system of what to do and what not to do up there, how I shoot them, how I prefer to shoot them. Um and then at the end of the day, it's like it's we don't have to kill that animal, so we don't have to put ourselves in that position um where someone's gonna get hurt, you know. Like we all carry e-perbs and that sort of stuff. Got to the point where we crossed this one creek up there and don't know what happened in that water on that creek, but on the other side everything just turned angry and nasty. The bull's like, we got the other side and we were definitely not on top of the food chain on that side. Every bull that looked at us or spooked, circled us to flank us, um you know, in in ways that like we started to actually question why we were doing some of it, or like we'd see a bull in position and said, No, it's actually not safe to go and hunt him there. We've got nowhere to go. You know, and if anyone's ever seen a buffalo, a water buffalo go from zero to full speed, it's in like two seconds. They can move.
SPEAKER_02That's not fat, that's muscle. Oh, it's ridiculous. It's m they're for a big animal like that, they uh yeah, they can really hoof it. Amazing stuff. Now, what's next? Is it is but is building a bow next? Have you got what's coming up on the uh on the itinerary for Jack Spengs?
SPEAKER_00I've always built bows. Like I've I built a handful of laminate bows um years ago. I just it's one of those things that if I dive into I I've got to go like into it full, fully. Um so I'm sort of like there's like sort of that spear fishing. I'm sort of trying to stay away from it, you know, as best I can. Um you know, we've muck around making the O Sage bows, like Lyndon sent down a couple staves, you know, probably like just split staves and some that are sort of, you know, say fifty percent finished. You know, and so you can um you know, tiller on yourself, you can, you know, change your grip and that sort of stuff. So Ben doing that. Um but yeah, I I'd like to, you know, I'd get another stave off him and make one like the one I've got at home that I um probably fifty-fifty on how we did it. Uh it's been a really, really nice shooting bow, so I've shot plenty of animals with that now. And um, I really don't know what's next. I think is probably pursue the napping stuff a bit more, but it's it's gonna get to the point where hunting with the nappings uh huh hunting with stone, you've napped bamboo, osage, it's sort of you do that, then you try and go back to these beautiful black widow bows and cub and that sort of stuff, you almost feel like you're cheating.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00You know, like how far do you go?
SPEAKER_02What's what would you say is the difference in performance and which one do you prefer? You know, w uh what would you say, how much of an edge are you getting using modern materials? Oh shit load.
SPEAKER_00Shitload. But it all it also depends on on how you hunt. If you hunt to a if you hunt to ten yards of every animal and uh you've made your arrows right, there's no difference.
SPEAKER_02But what would you rather have? I mean, the knowledge and the ability to be able to go out with a lump of rock and make yourself a bow out of nothing.
SPEAKER_00Depends what the I suppose depends what you need. If you needed trophies, you'd go with, you know, obviously the carbon and the composite stuff. If you just wanted to have fun and get a meat animal, there's no reason you couldn't take the the primitive side of stuff. But um I shot a handful of goats there one day with a me mahogany obsidian point, uh bamboo sharp, full primitive arrow, but that was out of a uh a 60, 62 pound pre-curve. You would never have known I used anything different than steel. You would have thought I shot it with a normal arrow, normal broadhead, so the performance was exactly the same. Um, you know, so it was sort of like that was that was cool for me.
SPEAKER_02That's amazing, yeah. You know, people wouldn't expect it, but I've I mean the guys in America that get after it, they are just as accomplished in argue.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. It all comes down to like if you keep your shots close, you shoot your your your shots tight, you know, you've done your training, you're you know, you're accurate, you know, shot placement, all that sort of stuff, there's absolutely no reason for it to be any different.
SPEAKER_02Something you've whipped up with two dead animals and what's out in the bush. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. It really is amazing. Um now, what would you say is your favourite game animal?
SPEAKER_01Oh uh if I had to hunt one for the rest of my life, not only one, I'd probably be pigs.
SPEAKER_00But something about pigs. For a bow hunter, just us, yeah. For what we do, how we do it, how they act, where they are, the places they take you probably pigs.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, amazing. What's your least favourite? Um joining everything, but uh be tossed between rabbits and polygon?
SPEAKER_02Uh I'm not enjoying samba deer at the moment, that's just because I can't get one. Uh actually, my least favourite animal all up, one thing I found is interesting recently is pandas. I've always said it. I've always said it. I don't like pandas because they get a disproportionate amount of conservation money because they're the WWF's animal. They're like sexually attracted to nothing. They're the females are only receptive for like two minutes a year, and I just think they're kind of pointless animals. And one thing I found out recently is they might not have existed before the 19th century. There's no record of pandas in art or literature or anything. And you think if you're gonna draw a painting, if you're a painter, one day you might draw a panda, or you might carve a panda. They literally didn't exist. They think that maybe they were like invented to eat bamboo, because they just eat bamboo, and they would be a tourist attraction for the Chinese. But yeah, it's like this conspiracy because there's no paintings or sculptures of pandas, but I think they're kind of rubbish anyway, because yeah, they're pointless. Good trophy though. I'm joking. Pizza, I'm joking. Probably. Yeah. Uh amazing stuff. Jack, where can everyone find you?
SPEAKER_00Uh Facebook, Instagram, uh, yeah, on the string page, Tara's got some strings. Um, yeah, Amphibious, like pretty much all the socials, that sort of stuff. Just under Jack Spinks93, I think. Or something, Jack Spinks underscore, one of the two. You'll find me there or someone will know where to find me.
SPEAKER_02How do they go about booking a hunt with you? Are they just gonna catch you on your socials?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, just just get in touch and um like I said, we we try not to advertise too much of a hunt, it's more of a course of um giving you those those building steps to How often do you run your bow trainer courses? Sort of whenever it fits between everyone. So i if it's something someone wants to do down the track, well I can try and um line it up with someone else so it's you know it's it's all done at the same time instead of being in and out all the time. Um but yeah, pretty much uh I working for myself I'm pretty flexible, so uh if if someone needs it sooner rather than later or you know wants to get in at a certain time or or or is in the area, uh I'll try and work around you.
SPEAKER_02You do do a lot of training for people going out on challenges, things of that nature. So if yeah, someone people often do need to be able to shoot a trabo in record time, that's the place to go. That's right. Jack, thanks very much, mate. Appreciate it. All right, thanks, bye. Thank you, everybody. We hope you enjoyed the show. Wherever you are, whatever time of day it might be, good morning, good afternoon, good evening, and good hunting.