ClarkCast Chapter 13: Don Barnes of 38 Special is Awesome!

Don Barnes joins us on a special episode of the ClarkCast Podcast. For more than 50 years, Don has been a vocalist and guitarist in the legendary 38 Special. The band recently released its first album in 20 years, "Milestone," and is currently on the road for the 38 Special - Milestone 50 Year Legacy Tour.

Don talks about his relationship with the late great Ronnie Van Zant, finally releasing his "lost" solo album, the early days of MTV, and much more.

38 Special will bring the Milestone 50 Year Legacy Tour to the Beau Rivage in Biloxi on Friday, Oct. 9, as part of the annual Cruisin' The Coast: America's Largest Block Party. Tockerts go on sale May 1 at Ticketmaster.com.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Clark Cast is on the air.

SPEAKER_03 0:02

Don Barnes, uh, you only get to listen to three albums the rest of your life. What what are those albums going to be? Like maybe you're gonna be on a deserted island with a record player or something, but if you can only listen to three records the rest of your life, what what would those three be? Or what would three of them be?

SPEAKER_04 0:19

Yeah, that's a good question. Let's see. Uh uh Desert Island. Let's see. It'd be uh well, first of all, a big Beatles fan. Gotta be Meet the Beatles, some early stuff, you know. I loved all the rock stuff before they got a little esoteric and mellowed out, but uh Dire Straits on Every Street. What a killer album that is. Great album. Every song on there. I mean, that was my boat, uh, boat uh CD or cassette back then. I would ride out there in the lake at night and play uh on every street and just floating turn the motor off and float, you know. Uh let's see, the third one. Man, there's so many of them. I mean, that's uh whether genre, whether it's uh I'd have to be some up-tempo blues, you know. Uh that's what I'm my main thing is. It's just a feel-good stuff, you know. Um I don't know. Just some up-tempo blues stuff, you know, collection. I love it.

SPEAKER_03 1:25

You get you got the Beatles, you got dire straight, you know.

SPEAKER_04 1:27

Yeah, there's joy in that, you know. A lot of people think blues is sad, you know. It's like, no, man, there's so much joy in all that up-tempo stuff. You know, it's great, great groove stuff. Of course, you'd have to have a guitar to jam along with it, you know.

SPEAKER_03 1:39

So absolutely. Yeah, of course. I'm not gonna deprive you of that. Welcome to Podcast conversations about live fifty, live fifty, live things, conversation, live, my guest today, uh, I've been a friend of mine for about 15 years now, Don Barnes, uh lead singer, songwriter, guitarist 38th Special. 38th Special been around for about 50 years now, which is which is amazing. Yeah. You know, one of my one of my favorite bands. And uh Don, thanks for doing this, dude. Hey, I appreciate all the nice support and the write-ups over the years, Jeff. Thanks so much, man. You know, I was thinking the the the first time I I interviewed you, it wasn't the first time I saw 38 Special, but it was about, I don't know, 15 years ago or so. Y'all were doing a shed tour in the summer with uh Hank Williams Jr. And that was like the the first time that you and I ever connected on that. And what I remember about that show, other than how much I love 38 Special, is you know, Jimmy Hall, who's a good friend of mine, was uh was Hank's uh his his band leader. And I just every time I see Jimmy Hall perform, I think he's the most underrated musician, human being in the world, you know.

SPEAKER_04 3:22

And what a sweet guy, too, man. He has a beautiful person.

SPEAKER_03 3:26

He's a lovely man. I love that guy. He he'll he's gonna do this with me, you know. But I was uh I was so glad I'm what did you say? He's gonna do it. He's coming, he'll be down here in a couple weeks. He's gonna sit down with me. Um, you know, I mean, Jimmy Hall's got all the swagger of Mick Jagger. Like he's just, you know, he he he's just a great musician, man.

SPEAKER_04 3:47

He's going to church on stage, man. He brings all that soul, all the the background, everything he came from, you know. And he's the same, you know, you're this business, you know, will eat you up. It's a competitive thing where you know you you have some, you know, it's a it's a journey, you know, roller coaster ride. Sometimes you're way up on top, sometimes you have to eat a little humility and be down there. But Jimmy's experienced all that. So, but uh he's kept his head up and uh just a great guy, you know, good ass.

SPEAKER_03 4:16

Yeah, still going. You know, one thing I I I've never asked you about, you know, I I that I'm I'm interested in is you know, obviously you started this 38 special with uh with Donnie Van Zant, who's the brother of the great Ronnie Van Zant, the voice of Leonard Skinnard. Was did did you have a relationship with with Ronnie? Were you were you all friends? Did you know one another before his passing?

SPEAKER_04 4:39

Yeah, we we came from the west side of Jacksonville's as you know, they were playing teen clubs, they were the one percent, they were called the one percent back then. And uh Donnie and I'd played at all these teen club dance bands and all that stuff. But you know, we go see Skinnard and uh well, one percent, and we'd we would see their improvement every week. Every, you know, we'd every you'd see these little back then there was a lot of venues, little opportunities for teenagers to play. You know, Jacksonville was a Navy town. So everybody, all of us were 15 years old, we played Sailors Clubs. I mean, Ronnie and and Dwayne and Greg Allman, everybody. And uh so we all cut could cut our teeth on all these cover songs of the day. And I remember Ronnie standing up there and uh, you know, uh just doing they were doing Yardbird songs and do doors, you know, the uh, you know, young rascals, all that stuff. So we were we watched him do all that. But yeah, uh he was uh he was a sweet guy, you know, if he was if he was sober. Right. I I've known plenty of people like that. But uh he uh he had said something to Donnie that I didn't realize, you know, he uh I could jump way back. I was 19 years old and my amp had blown up and I was playing with Donnie in another band. We played about eight different bands before 38 Special. And uh I was married with a kid and uh just you know uh landscaping foreman and uh you know I said I just can't do amps blown, I can't afford anything. So he he asked Ronnie, would he would he help help me out? And uh, you know, Ronnie said he would sign, co-sign for a loan for an amplifier. And he met me down at downtown Jacksonville and just, you know, uh said, You gotta, you know, gotta pay for it, gotta make sure you make the payments on it and everything. So but he told Donnie at that time, and like I said, he was about five years older than us, so you know, we always looked up to him. It's a big mentor for the band, you know. But he he said, and this is I only heard this after he was gone, after the plane crash and everything. Donnie uh gave me one of his stage shirts, well, I still still have it's uh it's in the Georgian Music Hall of Fame now. Um, but it's in in my estate. But uh he told Donnie, he said, stick with this Don Barnes guy. He wants it bad enough. And I thought, really? He said that about me? I didn't know anything. But we were young guys, you know, so it was uh something I've always taken to heart. But uh in in hindsight, as my at my age now, yeah, man, I I had to have it. You know, you you gotta really want it so bad that you're gonna learn, not just push, you gotta learn every aspect of this business. You gotta learn to, first of all, write songs and get better at it and play guitar, be proficient at that. And uh, and then, you know, assembling and arranging and being diplomatic with bands, you gotta be, you gotta have full diplomacy when you're with six uh five other guys, you know, six guys in a band, because it's uh it's a family, you know. You gotta it's like a second family. I was told a long time ago by a therapist. We all basically came from broken families, you know, single parents. And he said, you know, that band is your new family. He said, it's a it's a support group. Everybody encourages each other. They they try to build each other up, lift them up, which a lot of families don't do that. He says, So this is your new family. I was like, you know, that's right. I never thought about it. So anyway, but while you're putting things together, you've got one guy suggest, you know, uh a part for a song you're trying to put together, and it might be something that you had already thought of, and it was just, you know, it was too weird or just kind of a left turn. And the so you have to be uh diplomatic in that sense of saying, yeah, you know, that's that's pretty good. Uh you know, I I did think about that, but you know, the listener has to, you know, you can't really jerk them into a left turn there. And then, you know, you kind of make your point, but soothe soothe the guy at the same time. And and they end up going, oh, okay, yeah, I I see what you mean. You know, so you have to really learn to do that too. So it's a lot and then and then and later on you learn to produce records, you learn mixing, you learn every single aspect of it. Uh a lot of people think this is all about, you know, hanging with your buds and drinking a beer and looking chasing girls when you're 19 years old, you know. But it you gotta really be about five steps ahead of yourself and be a professional and take it, take it seriously, you know.

SPEAKER_03 9:05

You know, you mentioned uh family, you know, one thing that that I've known about you, and especially when you when you come down on the Mississippi Gulf Coast in this area and stuff is you'd like for your your wife to travel with you. Like you you it's a business for you. Like I I know that you get up, you do your show, you're not screwing around after the show, you're getting with your wife, you're you, you know, and I admire that.

SPEAKER_04 9:25

Well, you know, you have to keep the home fires burning too. That's the most important part. Uh you years ago when we were all young, it was uh you you put that on the back burner and made it secondary, you know, and it was like the ban was the thing, and it's every get out of my way, you know. Uh everything was all all for the success of the the attempt at, you know, working and making it in this business. So a family does suffer, and there's been a lot of them fell apart, you know, through the years, you know, the other guys, you know. So you know, when you find somebody you really want to keep and be be uh, you know, you realize it's primary. Family is primary. So uh that's that part, the band thing is uh is a job. And when they really look at it, people look at it as something fun, but it it is a job, you know. So you have to come leave that job and go home and be the family guy, you know, and do what's important, you know. Or you're never gonna be happy if if you don't.

SPEAKER_03 10:24

You know, speaking of that being a job, like I know uh pretty much, you know, during the summertime, you you 38 likes to get on package tours and uh go play sheds and and amphitheaters and stuff. And last summer in particular, y'all were out with Kansas, you came down to Orange Beach. I was gonna go to that show, but as much as I love you and as I much as I love 38 Special, the Wharf Amphitheater is the hottest place on earth between the months of June and September. I just I've seen Journey there in July, and it I thought it was gonna die. And I and I say that, you know, I I get the aesthetic of it. It's outdoors, you know, the stars, it it's scenic, but like as you're getting older, is it like does it is it harder to get out there in those summer months? And well you try to uh you know anticipate that.

SPEAKER_04 11:13

You know, it's gonna be we you check the temperatures during the day, and I'll I'll talk with the crew guys over there loading in, and and they're like, this is a tough one, buddy. You know, so get all the gator ready lined up. We got the fans, we've got the little carpet blowers that you know uh blow, make some wind on stage, which we want it you want to do. You don't really want to you know whoosh whooshing by in the microphones or anything, but just move some air because that dead heat, you'll pass out. I mean, I've got we've got foot fans and all that, but uh we we do prepare for that kind of thing. You tank up, get Gatorade, get electrolytes and all that. So yeah, it is there has been there have been times. I was under the St. Louis Arch July 4th, man, it was like 102 out there. And they had uh EMTs had to take me away after the show to get rehydrated, you know, and uh you IBs and all that thing. And uh my son when young when he was young, he was with me, and it was scary because they had to take me out under on a on a uh gurney through the crowd to get to the ambulance. So they had to put a sheet over me on my son. That upset him. Sure.

SPEAKER_03 12:21

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 12:22

But you know, you don't want the fans, hey, there he is, you know, rolling by. But it was it's one of those things. Uh it's happened several times, and mainly because you have to keep your uh your health up. You have you can't be sick. And at that at that time I was taking antibiotics, I had some kind of flu lung thing or something, you know. So when antibiotics will dehydrate you, and if you don't watch out, you get in that kind of heat, and it's uh it's brutal, you know. Uh but but speaking of uh Belux, we'll be there in October. Uh Beau Vervage.

SPEAKER_03 12:52

Oh, cool, man. Awesome. Yeah, I I I missed you guys came to Bay St. Louis uh to the uh Hollywood. I missed that show and I try to never miss them, but yeah. Beaurich is my favorite theater now. Yeah, it's great.

SPEAKER_04 13:04

I mean I I didn't realize they built that for the uh uh what was the the what's the the the French uh oh what am I thinking of the you know the Trapeze artists?

SPEAKER_03 13:14

Oh yeah, yeah. Bellow, Bellow Knocker, whatever. Circus LA, yeah, man. It's a it's a great theater, and uh I'm actually I'll be seeing Chicago there in a in about a month, you know.

SPEAKER_04 13:23

You mentioned Kansas, those guys are great guys, good friends of ours. They do an excellent job. Uh, you know, uh they uh we've we've known those guys all for 40, 40 something years. And uh so but to we're going out on tour this summer, too, doing some.

SPEAKER_03 13:40

I just saw them at the bow about a month ago, and it's the first time I've seen them without Richard, you know, man. I mean, they just great, phenomenal, you know. Yeah, oh I know.

SPEAKER_04 13:49

Ronnie Platt, great singer. Sure, absolutely. You know, it's one of those things that you know, yeah, the original guys that they get they live out of a suitcase all those years. And uh, you know, Phil E. Hart, a good friend of mine, he lives here in Atlanta. Uh, we talk all the time, but you know, he had a had a real heart attack. He had a widowmaker heart attack. Well, he said if he'd have been on a plane, he wouldn't have made it. They got him back. But yeah, his his drum tech took his parts because he knew all the cues and everything. So uh Phil still manages self- the managed and self-managed, have been self-managed for 20 years. We have been too, you know, after so so long with management, you you you start seeing the the bottom line at the end of the year, you say 20% went to this guy. What exactly did he do? The age. Right, right, sure. I always always equated it to uh uh George Burns. You know, he was a hundred years old and he didn't have a manager. He had a great agent. He kept out there, he was booked all the time, all these nice venues and everything. So we have William Morris agency, Greg Oswald Oswald and Laura Williams. They they do a great job.

SPEAKER_05 14:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:55

You know, speaking of like the the business aspect of it, I I've told you before how much I love Ride the Storm, which was an album, your solo album you recorded in the in the late 80s. I mean, it's got some heavy hitters on it, man. Jeff and Mike Picaro. Oh, yeah. I mean, what a joke. What what kind of happened with that? Did did I mean obviously it cost somebody a lot of money to have Jeff Picaro and Mike Picaro on bass, and like as good as that record sounds, did that was that like you, did that cost you a fortune? Are you recording?

SPEAKER_04 15:31

The machinations of the business, the boring stuff is when the the record company got sold before it was released. And uh, but uh at the time they said they offered a solo album. You know, I'd had a string of uh good big hit songs. They said, pick anybody you want in the world, anybody you'd like to record with. And uh so uh yeah, they've they they footed the bill for all that. And uh, you know, yeah, Brian Fourier's one of the uh engineers that he was one of the producers on the record. He he had worked with Keith Olsen and we had done Strength and Numbers album Street and Numbers with with Keith Olson, who was no longer with us as well. But uh Brian's still around. But anyway, I wanted to bring him on. But he he knew Jeff and Mike Picaro, they were personal friends out in LA, you know. So he said, Man, we get Dan Huff, he's an icon in the industry. Great guitar player. I mean, amazing, you know. Sure. You know, he was a session guy back in LA LA. You mentioned Chicago, all those guitar solos on Chicago, right? That was Dan. Dan Huff came in there and blew it up, you know. So uh Danny Karamasi from Heart, drummer from Heart, he did about half the album. So, but uh I remember uh first of all, I was so honored to be among those guys, and they were just so nice and respectful to me, and uh, and I just uh we we slammed all those songs out. We had a great time. We're big, big production, had a lot to prove there, Jeff. You know, sure solo album, you know, I was gonna make it sure, make it 100%. But uh I remember Jeff was uh he would sit behind the drums and he was just such a master of uh studio work. He'd done played on everybody's record, you know. But he would sit there, you know how drummers they have to sit and wait while everybody in this in the room is talking about arrangements and all that. It doesn't really matter to the drummer. He's he knows his parts, you know. So everybody's talking about chord patterns or anything. And he was drawing with a Sharpie on every drum head. He would draw everybody in the room per uh caricatures and look just like them in the room. And I I wish I could have had some of those drum heads. I'm sure it's drum tech probably threw them away, you know. But he just sit there and sketch everybody. And I remember one time I was uh counting it off because I was so used to in our band to counting it off, getting the right meters to start, you know. And I said, Okay, you ready? All right, one, two, three. And he looked at me and said, What are you doing? And I said, And he said, I I'm the clock. I count off. So, oh right. I'll leave that away. There you go. You know, but uh Mike was a great guy, all all of them just were sweetheart guys, you know. And it's just so sad that they what what had transpired with them, you know. But they uh sadly they weren't around to see the release. Anyway, yeah, the the uh AM as it was getting, it was prepared, it was mixed, mastered, and you know, just my luck along with other artists that their project was shelved at the time. The a the uh record company was sold to Polygram, like a billion dollars or something. So everybody that had a project were ready to go, it was all put on the shelf, and the new people came in. All the the staff were gone. So everybody that championed your project that that put the bill, wrote checks for mixes and all, they're gone. And so the new people, they don't have any vested interest in it, you know. They don't and so they they wanted to move forward with the new new artists, you know, and all that. So uh my manager and I, we talked about can we buy these masters? And they weren't interested in buying the masters. They they're it's all about acquisitions with record companies. That's like I said, it's the the boring side of the business, but they want to hold on to everything they paid for. And so they held on to it. And 28 years later, I had to go through uh Australian uh melodic rock records, Andrew McNeese. Uh he said, we got to get this record out. Some of the songs have leaked online, and let's just make a good remaster it, put a lot of photos and everything. So yeah, ride the storm. That's uh it was out, and you know, coincidentally, uh they we got five stars across the UK and Japan and everything, so it just shows that they were sitting on something that was actually pretty gold.

SPEAKER_03 19:40

It was a great record. I mean, it it is, man. After the way, hey, I'm not I'm not an AR guy or whatever that is, but that's that's a hit song, dude. That's a John Barnes classic.

SPEAKER_04 19:50

Yeah, I always like that song After the Way. Yeah, it's all out there on this Spotify and Pandora, everything, all the platforms, you know.

SPEAKER_03 19:58

And you know, for a for a Chicago fan, like hearing you sing feeling stronger every day with the great Peter Sotero with Jeff Picaro playing drums, man. I mean, that's that's a that's a that's a highlight, man.

SPEAKER_04 20:10

He walked into a studio in Nashville years later, and I was with Martin, Martin Briley. We were working, that was part of the and I told him he was doing some you know demos or something. And I told him, but I've got a I did a version of of Feeling Strong Every Day, you know. He really, wow, I'd love to hear that. So we pulled it up and he loved it because I just said, you know, it just always lent itself to big guitar chords, boom, boom, boom. Sure. I said, I understand it was all horns of you guys, but I could I could hear it in this big guitar stuff, you know. And uh so he he loved it. So it was a really nice compliment from him.

SPEAKER_03 20:46

Right on. You know, back in in the uh mid mid-80s, you know, 38 special top 40 heads just all the time. But one one of the main things going on at that point was MTV.

SPEAKER_01 20:59

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SPEAKER_03 22:00

38th Special Where is a part of MTV, Friday night videos, night flight, like all that stuff, man. I remember those videos well. What was that like for you at that period? Like, not only do you gotta like write a hit, get a song on the radio, but now your manager comes to you and it's like, oh, by the way, we need you to dress up cowboys and lip sync your song, you know? It was so early.

SPEAKER_04 22:24

Well, first of all, we were the 13th video, the very first day. Wow. So our manager had said we were playing in Denver, and he said, There's this cable channel that's they popped up and they're, you know, they're called MTV, and we don't know anything about them, but they would let me just back up. They didn't have any content. MTV had no content to air for 24 hours a day. So they would send their own three camera crew out to concerts or live shows and film you and then, you know, produce it and put it together, edit it and put it on. So he said they want to come out with a a a camera crew. Do you mind if they record it? And I said, What? Some weird cable channel, never heard of it. Sure, if they want to do that, sure. So they came out and and I remember having to uh read the little cue card. The guy wanted me to put a little spot, you know, promotion spot on there. And uh look in the camera and say, You're watching MTV, you'll never hear music the same way again. And I thought it was so strange of a slogan because it hadn't started yet, you know. So in hindsight, I guess I should have bought some stock in it or something. Sure. But uh, you know, it's funny after all these years, we're actually personal friends with Alan Hunter and Mark Goodman. We I just talked to him the other day. He's big, they're both big fans. They've we've been on the cruise ships, the rock cruises, and all that. We hit we just headlined a rock cruise last year. And uh they they didn't realize. They said, Man, I had no idea of the history. You guys unfold all those hit songs in in 90 minutes, and you know, and so they've they get on XM radio and they talk it up all the time. I said, dude, thanks, thanks for the free promotion. You know, so yeah, but it's worked out well. But anyway, so yeah, back then we weren't weren't quite ready for prime time. Everybody had about three feet of hair, and you know, we were angry young men, started out with no no success, and and when timing was never on our side, except for that first day of MTV. Timing finally happened for us. And uh, so we were you'd go to your friend's house, everybody had it, you know, MTV, a cable channel, and you'd see this thing about four or five times a day, aired, and it was like, wow, this is actually catching on. And uh then it developed in a $70 billion enterprise, you know. We were down in uh in uh Panama City, Panama with uh Cheap Trick and Journey, and we had done a song Teacher Teacher from the movie Teachers. AM had a subsidiary, AM Films, and they were we were the go-to band to do the movie stuff. And so we're down there and we're playing the set and everything, and you know, it was a great reception, everything. We came to Teacher Teacher, and that place went manic, went crazy. Wow. We're looking at each other, like what did we do? They knew every word of the song, and what did we what did we have what happened? And it just turns out MTV had reached all around the world, and that was a big hit song down there in Panama, and we had no idea, you know. It's pretty strange.

SPEAKER_03 25:19

What was that the the first song, Hold on Loosely?

SPEAKER_04 25:22

That was on day one. They recorded the whole show, so they used little clips of it. Yeah, they used Hold on Loosely because that was our first single from Wildlife.

SPEAKER_03 25:30

Wow, so uh that that wasn't even supposed to be a video, that was just them coming and shooting you live in concert.

SPEAKER_04 25:36

The live show, and then they would pick and choose, you know, and uh over the period of time they uh we did another live thing. It was an MTV special. We actually were guest VJs and on there, Jeff Carlisi and myself, you know. They had us we were, you know, introducing videos and we'd they put the fake beards of a ZZ Top. They'd come back to us, and we've got the beards on playing a ZZ Top song and act, you know, goofing around, you know. So it's kind of funny.

SPEAKER_03 26:02

Right on. You know, hold on loosely. I mean, uh that that that song, man, it was such a such a big hit. You know, I was thinking about it when I wanted to, when you agreed to do this with me, like, you know, I know I you know, I'm not gonna give it away, but where y'all play it, but you play it late in a set every night. I mean, that's just just fact comes later on in the night. You know, there's this great thing you do with your voice when you were 30 something years old, where right before the course you go into falsetto, like on the song. Yeah, so now, like, after yeah going through like all the hits all night and you're getting to that, and uh at the age you are now, I'm not saying you're an old man, but you're not 30 anymore. Do you regret that decision?

SPEAKER_04 26:44

You're like where you're getting ready for the course, and like oh no, the falsetto no, the falsetto is easy. You're you're it's a different head voice, you know. Who told me? See, it's not hard to do that, it's the other parts that's trying to hit the high notes all those years later in full voice, you know. But uh it's a funny story you say because that we were doing the Strength of Numbers album, and Donnie Van Zant, of course, was co-lead singer. You know, we he was the one who suggested I start singing because we weren't winning in the beginning. We had a couple of albums that went straight over the cliff, Jeff. We it just wasn't happening. Donnie had more of an earthy, bluesy kind of voice. He was always been my partner, always my brother of known as his 14 years old. He still is my partner. He owns the trademark with me. And uh, you know, he had to leave the road due to hearing uh issues, inner-ear uh nerve damage, and uh he couldn't be around loud snare drums and guitars and even generators and trucks and all he can't be around that sort of thing. I'm jumping around here, but anyway, uh that's fine, man. We uh so those those days, you know, uh we we had uh we were in we were doing the with Keith Olsen, we were doing the Strength in Numbers album, and Donnie was having some problems vocally, and and Keith had had suggested that he go take see this woman. It was a she was like 75 years old woman. She was teaching all the heavy metal singers how to scream every night and and do it properly from the diaphragm and not blow out the little, it's just just a small little instrument in your throat. You can't keep doing it every night. And so Donnie went over there and I he came back. I said, How was he? He said, Man, she had me doing these vowels. Hey, eye, you know, and he said, it was just, I don't know, just not for me. And so the the lessons were paid for. I'd never take any vocal lessons, but they were paid for. And I thought it was interesting that this elderly woman was doing this. She had been an opera singer in Australia. I went and saw her, just a sweet woman, Elizabeth Sabine. She's gone, I'm sure, now, but she was just a sweetheart. And you'd be uh she'd in her living room there, uh, you'd see a you know, this black heavy metal car drive up, and this uh uh was the wasp wasp singer. Blackie Lawless. Yeah, Blackie Lawless. He's walking across the lawn to get to see this little old lady, you know. So it was funny that kind of thing. But anyway, she said, Well, sing me one of your songs. She was standing, she had a piano there, you know. Uh just a sweet woman. I still have such a great high regard for her. But she said, sing me one of your songs. So I stood there and I sang something. She went, Oh my goodness, you don't have to push that much air out of your throat. You she said, you're gonna wear that. Uh back then I thought that's what you do. Right. Put everything you got from internal internally, you know. So so she said, it's just a tiny little pipe with two little strands over the top. You're gonna blow it out, you won't be able to do this. So she, the main thing that I learned from her was stamina, how to do it every how to how to place it way down there. And so all those, uh, you know, we do 100 cities a year, every year. And I learned from her how to properly place it and not blow it out. And people after the show, people talked to me. They said, I can't believe you're actually talking right now, because I went and, you know, she said, let that all the electronics, let the amplifier, the PA do it, let it let them amplify you. You stay centered, you know, everything is right there. And uh, so it was a big lesson for me to learn that that you know, she she was uh she was young at heart. She said, I she said, I still I'm 75. She said, I still feel like the nine-year-old girl running through the flower fields in Australia. So really sweet woman.

SPEAKER_03 30:28

And and it's worked out well for you because I mean you still uh you know, I've seen videos from the last tours, your voice still sounds great. And I think your voice, I I actually sent you a text about this, but when uh when y'all released the first couple of singles for milestones, the the latest album you made, um, all that I haven't said, like you're singing on that's as, in my opinion, for what it matters, as good as it's ever been, you know.

SPEAKER_04 30:52

Yeah, thank you, Jeff. I I've tried to, you know, keep it, keep it in shape. It's uh I do some do some scales and you know, uh in the back backstage and drink some throat coat tea and get the little spray. They got this little thing uh spray called Entertainer Secret. And it was I always thought it was kind of bull, you know. I one bus driver told me he'd be used to be a DJ. And he said, Have you ever tried this stuff called Entertainer Secret? I said, Ah man, that's all gimmick stuff, you know. He said, It's not like a miracle, but it does you spray it and breathe in at the same time. So you're getting that right on your vocal cords. He said, It just moistens it again. You get, you know, each song is five minutes long. You kind of traumatize your voice, and then it and you I go back behind the curtain or I get a chance to sip some tea and a little shot of that spray, I can do another song. So I just get through the whole night like that, you know.

SPEAKER_03 31:43

Right on. Um, let's talk about milestones a little bit. You know, uh, are you uh you happy with that record? You happy with that final product?

SPEAKER_04 31:52

It was uh, you know, uh it was a big gargantuan effort because we had to do it with while we're doing shows, while we're out there on tour. So we'd have to take in phases. It went with about eight or nine phases. I'd fly to Chicago and do with Jim Peterick, working with Jim Peterick. Uh he and I and Jeff wrote hold on loosely together that long ago. We've been lifelong friends and wrote all a lot of songs together. Uh but uh the thing I'm up against is uh is all the streaming. I'm old school, you know. I we used to radio used to be king where you would uh look at program ads every year, um every week, and you see how they progress. You'd see it on the charts, you see all these things. All of that is gone now. And so you put out a new album, and my my uh I've got an interim manager here, temporary manager, he said, Yeah, streaming is a has a long tail. He said, You have to wait until all those views, and and we've had, well, like you mentioned, all I haven't said, this the song. It's 450,000 hits on YouTube, but uh the platforms, Pandora, Spotify, all Apple Music, they're in the millions. You got three or four million people hitting on it, and they tell their friends, you gotta hear this song, you know. But you gotta have about 10 million, you know. So you're you have to wait all this time. That's what I'm learning at the time. It's just so I'm so impatient about it. I want to see see it happen, and it's it's going very well. All the numbers are up. Uh the the views and the listens and the you know, record sales, CD sales, uh everything's gone up. But uh you have to it takes a long time. Uh I use, for example, uh recently there was a young girl. She had she had a number one song. I can't her name escapes me now, but she had a number one song. It was released 14 months ago. That's how long it takes for streaming and everything, because radio eventually does see that you're on the Spotify top 50 or whatever, and then that does transfer over to radio, and then they they start putting in their program list. And so you have to wait for all that time. So you put out something that's you know 100% effort, and you it's like, well, okay, it's a long tail, you gotta wait for it. So I'm still what looking at we look at re weekly reports, progress, and everything. So like I said, you gotta have 10 million before anybody makes any it makes a dent, you know. Are you are y'all performing any of the songs live? Yeah, great. We do, all I haven't said. People love that live. We just came from Epcot down there. We did six shows in two days, had little short little shows. They changed the audience out. And uh, but uh everybody loves that song. It's a it's it's got something to it. I don't know. That song is a throwback to kind of the sixties. You got the jangle guitars, you know, everything. Uh even the harmonies from the 60s, uh the droning vocals and those kind of things. It works really well. So uh, you know, I that was every time I hear it, it's it's like I it just strikes something in me that it was bringing everything forward uh from all my influences through the years. So it's just got a little magic to it, you know. Uh my uh my wife, she coincidentally, she came up with the title of it. I was just strumming a major seventh chord sitting in the dining room table. She was in the kitchen, and she said, What is that? Is that something you're working on? I said, No, just kind of noodling around. And she came around the corner and said, That sounds like that should be called All I Haven't Said. Wow. I said, What? Say that again, you know. So it was a perfect title, and it kind of lent itself to that kind of mood and and uh the approach to it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:27

And it's uh it's a classic 38 Special song. I mean, it's just it's it, you know, I I first time I heard it, even though I knew I was like, Yep, that's Don Barnes' 38 Special. It sounds amazing, you know.

SPEAKER_04 35:37

You know, and I've saw a comment, and I see it on YouTube, I see these comments, and people say, Why can't I stop listening to this song? That's a hit song. That's what you want. I gotta hear it over and over, you know. So uh I I I feel that too when I hear it. It's like, well, that's a there's something magical in that thing that worked, you know.

SPEAKER_03 35:56

What uh what what about what what's next for you? Like what what the the next chapter of your life? How how how do you see that? Or what do you see?

SPEAKER_04 36:04

It's all live music now, everything's live. You know, it used to be where you would go out and tour to to sell your your product, you know, your new album, and uh now it's the other way around. CD sales are low, and you just go and you can't download a live show, just all the the energy and the emotion of that moment, and bringing all those people into your history and all the emotions together. You're all as one for a night. And we see the instant reactions of people, we see you know, tears in their eyes sometimes, songs remind them. Uh high five at the singing along. I got my sound man, John. He's uh I think you met John before. He he told me, he said, he said, I gotta turn you up louder because the crowd's singing louder than you are sometimes. He's got to turn you up, you know. So it's a great job to bring that kind of joy to people, you know, over the years. You know, I was a big fan from the beginning. I liked all those radio songs. It would just, I told the Kansas guys, I said, man, I was first of all, they're like the backbone of American radio. I told the Sticks guys that too. I said, you guys have been around 72 or something, you know. I said, I was doing, I was driving a truck and I'd wake up the alarm clock, the radio clock, and it would come on, carry on my way. You know, and I say, that that's just it, it just like they fell out of the sky, these great songs. And I wanted to learn how to do that. How do you find songs that have that element to them that moves people, you know? And uh so as far as right now, you know, recording, I see the learning the the learning curve of streaming and all that. I see that it does take a long time. So we're we're we're putting some new songs together, but we're still kind of waiting. And uh we're doing a lot of live shows, 100 cities a year. And that's really our forte. We've always gone out there and moved that crowd and bring them in, and they know that it's uh it's a party when they know we're we're going everybody comes out to release for a release and forget their problems for a while and sing along and you know, have a drink and and uh you know that that whole thing. So uh, like I said, it's a it's a great job to have, you know.

SPEAKER_03 38:14

Right on. You know, it's funny you mentioned Sticks. That's my son. My son's 11. That's his favorite band. He came to yeah, he came to me about a year ago and he's like, Dad, have you heard a song called Mr. Roboto? Yeah. I'm like, yes. And he's like, it's a great song. I'm like, yeah, wait till you hear Renegade, wait till you so now like I we're we're going to see him Friday night, tomorrow night. We're gonna see him again, you know.

SPEAKER_04 38:34

Yeah, Tommy's a friend, Tommy Shaw's friend. Well, all those guys are, but they're great guys, you know. He's killer artist, just so super talented. But uh, you know, those those are those kind of groups we through the 80s and the late 70s, 80s, we were all competitive. All of Ario and everybody we we toured with. Uh, you're always trying to blow each other off the stage, try to compete, you know, always competition. So you're not exactly great friends because you're out there trying to win over them. Everybody tries your place on the charts. Everybody's trying to clamor for that thing. And what's great about it all these years later, that we all have become friends because we survived. You know, we all made it through. And uh and we missed out on all the friendship back then, but now we kind of hang out and talk and you know, talk about songwriting, just all that. So it's it's a good thing.

SPEAKER_03 39:25

Awesome. Man, the the last thing I want to ask you, and I ask this of everyone on here, is like, how how do you stay awesome? What's your secret to your success, your your method to your madness? What uh how do you keep it between the pieces?

SPEAKER_04 39:38

You gotta this this job, this business will you'll get jaded from it because it's so it's tough. It's not something I recommend somebody do, but you gotta still be in love with it. You gotta still love the right the excitement of of uh new songs and like Jim Peterick and I. He we we have that chemistry, and uh you could you hit on something and it's you're like, wow, that that didn't exist five minutes ago. Now look at it. It's there it is. It's it's creating, it's art. That's what the love of it is it's a part, it's a part away from all the business, the charts and the competitive nature of it all is just creating. So that's that's how you you do it. And and on top of that, having great friends in the band. We travel, we the crew guys are our family as well. And so we, you know, we've always been let's let's stay happy, let's lift each other up. That's a being a good leader is also lifting each other up. You know, you you know, somebody uh there are people who get a little ugly about things, not with us, but I'm talking about through the through the years, you've seen them, and you never want to do that. You want to always always lift the other person up and be positive and and keep it going like that.

SPEAKER_03 40:50

Cool. Man, thank you so much for your time. You know, I've always been one of my favorite people. It's always a pleasure to talk to you. Look forward to seeing you down there.