Chuck Abernathy finds the missing history of Marion

A discussion with Chuck Abernathy uncovers some forgotten or lost history of Marion between the years of 1845 and 1892. More important, when will we get a Chick Fillet?

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:20

Hello, I'm Jim Williams, and you're on the porch. Gonna be a good one today because I have with us Dr. Charles Aberdeen. Jack, thanks for coming to being with me. Oh my goodness, Dr.

SPEAKER_00 0:34

Charles.

SPEAKER_01 0:35

Well, it's the truth, isn't it? I know, I know it is, and and I never hear you say that, and but I dug it up a little bit. I got somebody to tell on you, so I thought I'd throw that in. Um, first off, thanks for coming on short notice. Um I I got all messed up and my schedule got screwed up, and so I called Janet Spake and and she talked to you, and you were gracious enough to come up. Now, uh before we start, give me a little history about uh who you are and how you got here.

SPEAKER_00 1:13

Okay. Well, my name's Chuck Ibernathy, and I was uh most people know me uh from being county manager uh for the county for 27 years. I now do the economic development uh for the for the county, which I've done for about six. And so that's that's kind of where where most people know me. Um I am not originally from Marion, but my uh parents retired here when I was in high school, and so I lie and tell everybody that I'm a Marion native. Um where are you from?

SPEAKER_01 1:52

I never did know.

SPEAKER_00 1:53

I was born in Dayton, Ohio. Oh my father was in the Air Force. Really? Yeah, and so I moved every three years and did all of that.

SPEAKER_01 2:04

I did not know your dad was a veteran. Yeah. Well, that's that's always good. That's always good. Well, when I talked to you, uh I said, Well, we'll we'll talk about because I've been bragging about your depth of knowledge on the houses of Marion and their history, their architecture, and that sort of thing. And so I I talked to you and you said, No, I got another idea. So uh let's let's just launch into it. Tell me what we're gonna talk about.

SPEAKER_00 2:38

Okay. And the house idea is is I've rethought that, and we can do that. That's uh that actually works, and it would be actually very interesting. We just narrow it down, you know, to about four or five. So maybe I can come back one day. I'd love to have you come back. And we'll we'll do that. So what we're talking about is the the missing history. The title of it is The Missing History of the City of Marion. And so the um for for years um I would go into City Hall and see all of the mayors on the their pictures on the on the wall. And it started in the 1890s. In other words, the first mayor was from 1892, and it was uh Amoris. Um and it bothered me because I knew Marion was created uh 55, 60 years before that. And so I just started thinking, well, what is going on with that 60-year period where there was apparently no uh city of Marion, but Marion was in fact created. How did that work? So I contacted the the archives, North Carolina Archives, and um they said every record that they had started Marion in the 1890s. And so uh all of the um references in the city agendas, uh, et cetera, their minutes, everything started in the 1890s. Now add to that, you've got a fire that took place in uh 1892, excuse me, 1894, and the town was burned down. And so I just started wondering if the lack of records is in fact due to the records being destroyed in that fire. So I researched that along with piecing together some, and I did find some information. There's still um uh a ways to go on this, but I did piece some things together about this um and this this kind of missing missing period that we have. So uh you kind of start with the fire of the city of Marion, um uh which occurred in uh 1894, and the town from the from the courthouse, the courthouse was saved, but from the courthouse going all the way to St. John's Episcopal Church, and then jumping across Main Street and then coming back towards the courthouse, the entire section of that section was was burned to the ground. And so I could not find there there was a listing of all the buildings that were um uh burned, and that uh it was an insurance document that uh that listed the buildings that had claims, and the city of Marion did not have a a building on that list, but the post office did, and there is some evidence that the post office and the city were co-located. So it's possible I could not prove it, but it's possible that um that the city and the post office were co-located and the city hall was was burned down and the records were lost, and that that explains it. But what you've got is this culmination of of things pointing to the early 1890s with Marion being formed in the 1840s. So if you go, there is actually a very good record of how McDowell County and the city of Marion were formed. That is is well known. So there's there's a there's kind of a kind of a window there where we've got good information and then and then things uh things disappear or or aren't really really available.

SPEAKER_01 6:48

Well let me interrupt you a second. So so just trying to think about it. In the 1840s, of course, that's pre-Civil War, no, no automobiles, it's all horse and buggy, right? Right. Okay, so all right, I just trying to picture it in my mind.

SPEAKER_00 7:09

Well, no, you're doing a good thing because painting a picture of what this looked like in the 1840s, and and the fact that when they they cleared Main Street, they cleared Court Street, they constructed a courthouse, they auctioned off lots that were there with 65 acres donated, and they auctioned those lots off. There, and we're and I'll talk to you about how Marion was selected, because there's not a good record of that either, but I think we've pieced some things together. But put in your minds, everyone, what this looked like in the in the 1840s. This was a dangerous place, and it was very much a frontier. And so we'll we'll come back and and talk about that.

SPEAKER_01 8:00

If you don't mind, I'm gonna keep butting in. Yeah, please. Okay, so when you said frontier, but by this time the the Native Americans are not an issue. We're not at war with them, right? In the 1840s?

SPEAKER_00 8:15

Actually, the Cherokee are still um in the in the 1840s. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:22

They're hostile still toward us.

SPEAKER_00 8:25

Okay, all right, I got it. Okay. So again, there's a there's a reasonable record uh of the formation of the of the county and the and the city. Um the county was was formed in January of 1843, and there was a meeting at the Carson House that spring in 1843, where what was the forerunner for the county commissioners met and conducted the first business. So when you visit the Carson House, you are in effect visiting where the county was formed, where it held its first meeting, and of course the Carson House continued as a as a jail and a courthouse, and it basically served as the the center of government while the while the courthouse was was being was being built. So where I found Jim, a lot of my information was in old statutes, old North Carolina statutes, and people would say, well, why why that? State of North Carolina has always exercised pretty exceptional control over cities and counties. And so you'll find references to McDowell County in old statute books, and that's really that and some old newspapers is where I where I pieced a lot of this together.

SPEAKER_01 9:51

So we didn't obviously there was no McDowell News at that time. Right. Um just a local newspaper that was that went through the town. Okay, so I'm just trying to get an idea here where we're dirt roads, horse and buggies.

SPEAKER_00 10:10

Yeah, we don't even have a dirt road. Really? Coming through Marion. Yeah. So was there a Main Street? No. No, they cleared Main Street. My goodness. Okay, all right. They had they appointed a committee of five that that cleared it, built Main Street, and laid it out.

SPEAKER_01 10:33

And so the courthouse where it is now, right, was that one of the first buildings?

SPEAKER_00 10:38

That was the first building. The first one. That was taken under under construction. Took two years to build, finished uh actually a little less than that, finished on budget, on time.

SPEAKER_01 10:50

And um And so up and down Main Street then, would that have been uh residential houses or businesses?

SPEAKER_00 11:00

No. No businesses, no homes. Nothing. Nothing. It's a it's it's really fun. It's a 65-acre vacant track of land. The the Carson House was constructed, obviously. That's where they where they met. And there was a stagecoach route that went that went through, but uh where where Marion is located was was nothing. Now, one of the things that the statute, let me go stay on subject, one of the things that the statute said is it named five individuals, uh, and they were to locate uh where Mar or decide where, make a recommendation where Marion would be located. And so these five people went out and they did a search for sites. And I have not seen any documentation that lays out how this how this happened. There's a recommendation in writing that went back to the um to what was uh the uh the county commissioners, basically, although it was called something else, called the Court of Pleas and Quarter Sessions. But um that recommendation was about a two-page document, located it, uh, and it recommended the site where Marion is currently currently located. There was a reference to a the other two other two sites that were under consideration. One was um the only hint is that it was located on Buck Creek. Now think about it. You got the Carson House located at Buck Creek in the Cotabba River. Right. So there was a recommendation that Marion be on Buck Creek, which is basically Pleasant Gardens and Lake Tahoma Road. Which makes more sense. It was a be it would have been a beautiful location. Um there was a massive argument, uh vicious argument about where Marion would be located. And the Carsons did not want uh to be too close to the to the town. They wanted it further away. And so when he donated the land, he donated 50 acres and then sold 15. When he did that, uh everyone that reads that thinks, well, he wasn't he civic-minded. Well, no, probably not. He didn't want anybody around a town near him. And the reason cited, there's one little reason cited, and that was because of his ownership of slaves. And he did not want that proximity uh to occur. It wasn't because of city taxes or anything, anything like that. So if you imagine a site north of the Carson House on Buck Creek, uh, I'm not sure what side of the creek, but probably right along Lake Tahoma Road is where another site was considered. A third site, that that's pretty dependable. A third site is referenced uh as being at a location called Bynum's B-Y-N-U-M, Bynum's Crossing. And Bynum's Cross Bynum was a landowner, uh, and the location according uh consulted Ann Swan on this, and she remembered uh the Greenlee sister saying that Bynum Crossing was roughly where the Interstate and Sugar Hill Road cross. So that was the third location. Okay. So so that's nowhere do I see that laid out. Okay. All right. It's all new.

SPEAKER_01 14:46

So really, what you're saying is that the reason Marion is where it is is because that's where Carson wanted it to be.

SPEAKER_00 14:56

Yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_01 14:57

And that was at his convenience uh because he wanted it away from his property. Wanted it close, but not too close. Right. So he it would help him in his any commerce that he needed to do. Sure. Well, that's pretty good.

SPEAKER_00 15:18

But I would say self-interest uh is pretty much at work.

SPEAKER_01 15:22

Well, yeah, that that makes sense. Now, I had not thought about this, uh I haven't thought about this at all. So um Carson was a slave owner. Right. Were there many other, do you know if there were many other slave owners in the area or was he pretty much it?

SPEAKER_00 15:42

No, there were others.

SPEAKER_01 15:44

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 15:45

Um he was either the first or second largest. Uh Greenley had had a a large number as well. And his Carson's number went up in around 60. My goodness. At one time. Uh and there were uh there's a listing that Dr. Haney did of the families that owned slaves. Uh I mean there were were quite a number, and a a large number uh had only one or two, not that large of a of a number as you would you would expect. But absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 16:24

So there was a pretty good slave population in let's say McDowell County. Yes. Now were we McDowell County at that time?

SPEAKER_00 16:34

Uh yes. In eight 1843, McDowell County was formed. And so the meeting at the Carson House in the spring of 1843 was the formation meeting. And it was in the dining room of the of the Carson House. And so at that meeting, they had charged, they appointed a committee to build the courthouse, they appointed a committee to clear the land, they appointed a committee to decide on the location. And so all of this was, they also passed their first act was to pass a law that allowed them uh to uh brew white lightning. Really? Yeah, that was so we were actually the very first the the very first thing that they did was make that legal. My goodness. So anyways, um so again the R the what's interesting is the the the fact that the decision was extremely volatile and and there were uh there was quite a difference of opinion over over where the where Marion should be should be located. Okay. So one of the things that they that they also did at the at the Carson House is they um named a committee and the committee parceled off Marion. Marion basically was 65 acres. It was where Main Street is currently located, it jumped over to Logan Street, it went to Garden Street on the north and south, New Street on the um uh let's see, that would be the north, and then Henderson Street. So that little square was was Marion, and that's what was was laid out. What they what they did is they uh auctioned off lots. So they parceled it off, laid laid Main Street on a map, uh Cork Street on a map, and then had um uh 60 or 65 lots that were auctioned. The price of those went from um uh around $100 to $500 for a lot, uh which was a lot of money, obviously, then. Let me interrupt you again.

SPEAKER_01 19:03

I'm sorry, Chuck. No, no, no. Because this is interesting. I mean, it really is fun. So so really we're talking about the the upper crust of people. We're not talking about just your farmer that's gonna come in and bid on a piece of land downtown. Right. Uh these are business people, prominent people, let's say, right?

SPEAKER_00 19:25

Yeah, like for example, Carson turned right around and purchased five lots. Oh, donated it, but then was smart enough to say, hey, this is a pretty good investment. And um I you know, I I researched that, I found a map, uh, Larry Green helped on that, uh, and Ken Suttles uh was involved as well. But um we found a map in the Register of Deeds office that had the uh the lots laid out and listed the people that purchased. And it was it was rather interesting. The one thing of note, uh it's just interesting to even just look at it, but the one thing of note is that Mr. Greenley purchased uh the property, and he was a large property owner north of Marion, but he purchased the property um at the corner of Court Street and Main Street where the Mariana Hotel is located. Everybody, you with me on that? Right, right. I know where they are. And two cabins were constructed on that property, and the uh first Presbyterian church met in that cabin. I I don't know this as an absolute fact, but it would be logical that that was the first church and the first first location. He built it and church services were were conducted right right there.

SPEAKER_01 20:52

Uh now I can't prove that that there wasn't another church, but um but that's what are we talking population wise at that time of people of the county?

SPEAKER_00 21:04

Yeah. Wow, you know, I always learn to say I'm not sure when when I'm not sure, and not just haggle like I like I know what I'm talking about. Um but I mean you're talking in the hundreds.

SPEAKER_01 21:20

Right. Okay. All right. I mean it w it was very remote. Well, it just seems to me, one, uh it seems to me that uh this Carson guy, he's he's looking after himself, but at the same time, uh kind of a genius move. I mean, uh really when you think about it, that's to say, well, I got a piece of property here out here at the Carson House. I think I'll build a town closer and that'll make my property value go up.

SPEAKER_00 21:54

So so fifty there were ninety lots, fifty nine of them sold. And let me read you some names. Because w what's interesting is some of the names are still still with us. Yeah. Um but um of course you had you had Carson, Irwin, Neil, Greenley, Halliburton, Murphy. I mean, some of those you know, there was a Bergen, Jim Bergen involved. So some of the names are consistent with um McGow County kind of traditional historical names.

SPEAKER_01 22:30

Well now, when you say Neil, are we talking about the the Neil that owned this property we're on right now?

SPEAKER_00 22:36

Probably. My goodness. I mean, but again, you would have to one of the things, Jim, that would be interesting for me, I'm not gonna pick this back up again. This whole I mean I've written a paper and and I'm I'm sort of moved on. But it would be interesting for somebody to take this and dive deeper on uh confirming what a lot of my assumptions are and and kind of piecing this this all together um uh and continue diving on it and looking looking for things. So here is another thing that's that's interesting. So so what did Marion do and look like from 1843 to pulling it back to 18 the early 1890s where we where we don't know, you know, what what was that process like, what did they do? And um one of the things that I found again in the statutes, see the um if you if you look at the current set of North Carolina law, you're not gonna find this. You know, in other words, these are replaced, and so you you go online and you you go to the archives and all that kind of thing. Uh but I found again a lot of the of the reference for for these kind of things in the the North Carolina General Statutes because the General Assembly had to approve almost everything that a city or a county did in a in a general in a general manner. And so the city of Marion, and and I've never seen a reference to this, was incorporated three times. Okay, so remember that. What that means is it was named as a legal entity in the North Carolina general statutes on three different occasions. When it was formed, it was incorporated. In other words, it was a legal entity that that existed and was uh had certain authorities and power and and all that kind of thing. It was then incorporated again in 1857. So hold that thought, and then it was incorporated again in 1862. So why would you incorporate a town again and then have to do it again? Yeah. Okay. And the thought is that, and again, can't really prove it, is that because it was dormant? There was nothing, you know, a things were happening. Things were being built, like the courthouse and the roads laid out, but that the city of Marion didn't function. It just didn't catch on. It from the the you had the county, you had uh sheriff, you had those kinds of things that were uh taken taken care of. I'm guessing, and when we talk about the first where I found the first mayor, it's gonna be consistent with with with what I'm saying, and that is probably from 1844 to 1862, uh I'm guessing that there was not a mayor and not a city council, and that there was really no business for them to uh to conduct. It was probably handled by the by the county. We had a metro uh unified government at the time, apparently, or maybe. Um and then and then you see where Marion uh started meeting and started uh holding elections and doing some things. But again, we're still before the 1890. So the first known mayor and town council following Marion's incorporation in 1845 is found again in legislation passed 19 years later. So the reference is 19 years after Marion was formed to the to the first mayor of the first council and to some evidence of their of their existing. And so that's probably a thought or an idea of what And what year was that, Chuck? Um well it was originally incorporated in 18 in 1845, and then you have uh an 1862, an 1857 incorporation, and then in 1862.

SPEAKER_01 27:02

Well, 1862 were right in the middle of the war.

SPEAKER_00 27:05

And and that may be the reason, the the catalyst for the action. There were things that were expected, uh, there was uh substantive items of of importance that probably caused them, and and the Civil War would be a good a good guess on on what on what happened. But um the 1862 statute um names a magistrate of police, a town constable, a treasurer, and a mayor. Okay, so those so we know now that those four positions existed. Um A. M. Finley was appointed mayor at that time. So the 1892 reference to the mayor goes now back to um 1863. And I found that both in the statute and also found a newspaper article that referenced his being named the the first mayor. Um Terrell Finley, again, is so funny. Terrell Finley is related to this person. If any any of you know um uh Terrell, he um ran Mountain Gateway Museum. Right. And so he laughed when I told him. I said, You're not related. He laughed and said, Yes. In fact, I in fact I am. Um and I think he may have known that uh that his ancestor was was was a mayor, or maybe even the maybe even the the first mayor. But you had a a Halliburton, which is a a pretty common name in this area, um that was appointed town constable. And so like a like a police chief, there was an R. L. Abernathy, no relation, that was appointed uh treasurer for the for the town. So he kept the record. And again, prior to that, there's there's no there's no record anywhere. Uh and the record is only through the through the through the statutes. Um so I think what what you have is that Marion was legally incorporated in the 1840s and in 1863 functioned.

SPEAKER_01 29:32

Okay, so it's functioning in 1863.

SPEAKER_00 29:35

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 29:36

In 1863, we're still the Confederacy.

SPEAKER_00 29:41

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 29:42

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 29:43

And you're also way before the fire.

SPEAKER_01 29:46

And that's way before the fire. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:48

So now what happens from 1863, if I'm right, what happens from 1863 to the 1890s? Right. What does happen? Okay, let's talk. And we'll we'll try to try to piece it together. When you look at the at the incorporation statutes, you you get very specific charges that the city of Marion was allowed to do, and you have the names of the um the of the original mayor. Okay, so the the bill appointed, listen to the names here. R. C. Bergen, Bergen, Alfred Finley, Finley, uh Garvin, I don't know that name, Benjamin Weeks, and Reverend J. A. Stradley as the first town board. So the original group was appointed, they weren't elected, and after that the city would hold an election, or the town of Marion would hold an election every year, and new new members could could run. So that's that's basically how it started. So if you if you look at what uh and let me read you some names.

SPEAKER_01 31:02

While you're looking, let me ask you this, uh, because I'm always interested, and I know I have uh there's a lot of people that actually listen to the podcast that are interested in the Civil War time. Yeah. So were we at that time were we under the influence of the war? Did we I mean we're still seated well in the South. There's no Northern influence, right? Right. Um So we're under the Confederate States of America when some of this has taken place.

SPEAKER_00 31:36

Right. And and my understanding is that we uh this area very much supported the Confederacy.

SPEAKER_01 31:44

Okay. Yeah, well I can believe that.

SPEAKER_00 31:45

When you go just slightly to the West, ever so close, uh those counties and counties in uh eastern Tennessee, and of course you've heard of the attempt to form a state called the State of Franklin, but uh that population was uh favored uh the North.

SPEAKER_01 32:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 32:08

And w so we were borderline, but my understanding is that we very much supported um the Confederacy.

SPEAKER_01 32:16

So when the war ended, and uh I don't want to I don't want to interrupt your train of thought, but when the war ended, uh from what you're saying during this period of time, you know, in the movies we hear about all that carpet bagging and all of the people all the people coming in. It doesn't sound like we were influenced that way, that the the town of Marion just plodded right along.

SPEAKER_00 32:44

I'm not sure. I suspect you're right.

SPEAKER_01 32:47

Yeah. But but I've never But we were a little spot, you know, not really that valuable to either side, probably.

unknown 32:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:57

Okay. Well I didn't mean to interrupt you.

SPEAKER_00 32:59

No, no, that's good. So so again, back to my very first sentence where I said I was troubled by going into City Hall and seeing that the that the mayors started in the in the early 1890s with with um mayor Morris. So I've I feel kind of like I've resurrected and and I'm I'm really not laughing, I'm serious. Like I've like I've pulled people from obscurity and replaced a uh uh an attention and um degree of of focus on them. And so um, and that you know, I I really feel good about that in addition to shedding some light. So so A. M. Finley was the probably, unless there's something that I've missed, in 1863, the first mayor. Okay. Not the other one. Um and again, the um uh we've we've listed the other members. Now, one of the things that I did is I tried to piece other mayors and find other mayors, which I which I did. I've found some documents in the Register of Deeds office and pieced together like where a statute authorized um the construction of a road, for example. And it re it would reference the the mayor of Marion and give me a name. And so I basically have a fragmented, but um, but at least some name. So let me read a few here.

unknown 34:45

A.

SPEAKER_00 34:45

M. Finley being the first in 1863. In 1869, there was a J. H. Gilkey.

SPEAKER_01 34:52

Gilkey.

SPEAKER_00 34:52

Gilkey, right, a neighbor of yours.

unknown 34:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:56

Or four.

SPEAKER_00 34:57

Yeah owned the house right right below you. Exactly. Um and again, you've got a Bergen, a Neil, a Finley, and a Yancey on the town council, all predictable.

SPEAKER_01 35:11

All, yeah, those are familiar names.

SPEAKER_00 35:14

A. C. Halliburton was named mayor in 1872. In 1877, J. H. Gilke was named mayor again, and then James Morris in 1884, and in 1890, M. A. Newland.

SPEAKER_01 35:37

So I found about seven mayors that were so seven mayors, we're looking at yeah, 50 years here. So how long did they hold their office?

SPEAKER_00 35:49

I that's uh a new good question. A year.

SPEAKER_01 35:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 35:54

But they let's say they you know, I don't know how many more there were because they could have served 10 or 11 years.

SPEAKER_01 36:03

Right.

SPEAKER_00 36:03

I I I don't have the term, but I I did find the name and found the reference um to the to the mayor.

SPEAKER_01 36:11

Well, just just speculate. Uh because I'm not trying to put you on the spot.

SPEAKER_00 36:15

No, that's right.

SPEAKER_01 36:16

What what did the mayor do in Marion? What what was his job?

SPEAKER_00 36:21

Yeah. That's a good that's a good question. Um I suspect everything. Well, was he the boss of the police? Yeah, I would say so.

SPEAKER_01 36:32

Boss over the police chief. Right. There was no manager. Over the whatever they call it, the constable. Constable. Okay. All right. Did he manage a budget, you think?

SPEAKER_00 36:43

I would say that they submitted a budget because there is reference, and I can I can find it, to uh how much they could tax. They they were given taxing freely. And so there were they did things, and we'll talk I'll if you don't mind, I'll talk about their services.

SPEAKER_01 37:00

Please, I I don't want to interrupt you.

SPEAKER_00 37:02

The electrification of Marion, the construction of boardwalks, um, roads, all of those things were were paid for with um with the with the taxes. All right, lead on. I won't I'm not even going to talk about the charter, but I found their first charter. Okay, so so let's think so we know some of the people, and you asked the question, um, what did the mayor do? What did the what did the town do? What kinds of things were they um responsible for? And so I've we we located a uh some ordinances that were approved prior to the 1890s, and we found in the statutes, again, some things that the mayor and the town council was authorized to do that that would might be might be of interesting interest. Um the ordinance book is dated just prior to the fire, uh, and but was was pre-fire, and so it probably compiled um ordinances approved for quite a period of time. Uh and I'll just ramble and talk about a few things to give you give you an idea. But um first every male in the in the town between the ages of 21 and 50 paid a poll tax. And a poll tax was was one dollar. And the one dollar uh had you able to vote. And people know the poll tax because it is referenced historically as a mechanism to keep people from voting, and you'd have no assumption except that that might be what was was happening with this. But there was a tax of of a dollar on, and so apparently when you reached the age of 50, it was waived. Um and when you were obviously at that time 21 was the was the legal age to vote. And so a poll tax was established, which the town collected in the amount of a dollar per male citizen.

SPEAKER_01 39:16

And these are these are citizens of Marion that pay that.

SPEAKER_00 39:22

Yeah. Yeah. And and it's interesting because they worked out the issue of owning property but not residing in Marion. In other words, you can you could have gone a route that said if you own s a certain amount of property, you get to vote. But that's not what we did. You have you have to be live and reside full-time in the corporate limits in order to in order to vote and be a citizen of the town. And in order to vote, you had to pay a dollar.

SPEAKER_01 39:57

Well now, was this a taxed uh levied whether or not you voted, or you just paid the tax and then you could vote?

SPEAKER_00 40:06

I'm not sure. That's a good question. I s I I would guess you paid it to vote, but I'm not sure. You because you still you had a property tax, which I'll I'll hit here. Okay. Okay. A few other items, uh, each male between the ages of 18 and 45. And again, we're talking about the period here um after uh the town council and the mayor, mayor was uh created. So each male between the ages of 18 and 45 was required to work the streets of the town for four days each year. Is that right? And that is, yeah, that's a fact. And the mayor, you asked what the mayor did, the mayor oversaw that and had powers that he could exercise if somebody tried to not do their four days.

SPEAKER_01 40:58

Well let's let's bring that back.

SPEAKER_00 40:59

Yeah. Uh a few other things. Mules and horses were uh were not allowed on the sidewalks of the town. So the law said uh you you can ride your horse to town, but you cannot uh put it on the sidewalks. Um vicious animals were were prohibited. Uh you could not destruct uh any property in the town. Guns could not be discharged. Um children could not play in the streets of the city for for safety reasons. Um a person could not um be in a state of intoxication.

SPEAKER_01 41:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 41:45

A person could not swear or curse a city official. So that's kind of interesting. That's interesting. First amendment, maybe. But no, you could not um you could not do that. It was unlawful for uh for prostitution. Prostitution was was not legal, so specifically references ladies were not permitted um to to engage in that.

SPEAKER_01 42:16

However, that I I've heard stories that that wasn't necessarily upheld. Enforced. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:24

Yeah. Yeah, I have too. Um and that that may very well may very well be. The um agricultural uses, the roaming of animals was uh was prohibited. All persons, but parentheses, especially boys, uh could not uh jump on trains and and basically ride on the on the back of a boxcar, which must have must have been a must have been a problem.

SPEAKER_01 42:55

Well let me let me ask you another question then. So trains were the railroads pretty much where they are now, you think? Yes. Okay, all right.

SPEAKER_00 43:06

Yeah, yeah. And uh I have uh information on the history of when the railroad came through. Steve Little would know.

SPEAKER_01 43:13

Well Steve's coming up in a couple of weeks.

SPEAKER_00 43:15

He I mean, uh please let me defer to him on that. Uh he uh that would um would be something he could he could definitely comment on. But uh again, we're talking closer to the fire now because the railroad uh would have would have been there. But a couple of other a couple of other things. Um the mayor was given the power uh to fine and to forgive a fine. And he was also given the power to um and I'm not clear how this would work, but he could he as kind of his own um court person really uh could could force a person to Um to work for the city as a as a penalty for violating the law.

SPEAKER_01 44:05

Really?

SPEAKER_00 44:06

So uh apparently he could do that on his own.

SPEAKER_01 44:09

So he had judicial power. I I think so. Yep. That's interesting, I think, for a mayor.

SPEAKER_00 44:15

Yeah. Um, so those are the kinds of things that were were legal. Let me talk and finish, and then I I'd be glad to come back. Um uh but let me talk about the services that that the that the town so people pay taxes for uh a higher level of service because you live, you know, your garbage is picked up, you've got police protection and fire and all of those kind of things. So what services in the uh 1870s, 1880s, 1890s did the um city perform? Uh the state at that time had not taken over roads. So roads were built um within the within the city. Um they were built and maintained by the city. So your taxes went for that purpose. Um your taxes also went, although city council could require a business owner to construct a boardwalk, but the maintenance of that boardwalk would have and the a sidewalk essentially would have been something that the that the town oversaw. Um so road construction, road maintenance, law enforcement was was important. The city would have had their own jail and their own their own process uh at at that time. Uh street lighting, which we we've we've referenced earlier, street lighting would have come there are there are pictures, I found no reference to it, but there are some pictures of the courthouse that have little power poles in front of them, and then there are pictures of the courthouse that do not have. So you can kind of from the date of the picture tell roughly when Marion was electrified.

SPEAKER_01 46:11

Well, can I ask you some questions? Sure. So where when Marion was electrified, where did the power come from?

SPEAKER_00 46:22

It was private.

SPEAKER_01 46:23

Private.

SPEAKER_00 46:24

And there is a man who is very famous, J.L. Morgan, Morgan Street, and he started um I think it may have been called Marion Power and Light. So it was it was a a private business. Well, where was it generated? Off of st uh streams.

SPEAKER_01 46:44

Okay. All right. So water generated power and it's brought into Marion. So and we had at least the courthouse had streetlights.

SPEAKER_00 46:53

Yeah, Main Street would have had would have had street lights. Um and the dates on that would run um in the maybe in the late 1880s to the to the early to mid 1890s would have been a five or six year period when when Marion first had electricity.

SPEAKER_01 47:16

So just to get a picture of what was going on, the average guy, the average guy is probably a farmer, right? Uh because are we in we're not into textiles, the industrial revolution is still ahead of us.

SPEAKER_00 47:34

There is some manufacturing, but it but the the Clinchfield mills and Marion manufacturing and Drexel and all of that, we're we're not there. So there were some mom and pop type manufacturing that that was in place. But but uh you're right, it was mainly farmers. People grew a little bit of agricultural product, hunted, uh, and then they uh traded in Marion. And so people would load up, go to Marion on Saturday, and buy what they needed.

SPEAKER_01 48:09

So during this period of time, why would people want to come into town? Is it to buy dry goods or trade or why why do you want to come into town?

SPEAKER_00 48:22

Why to buy uh n items that you cannot make on or grow from your own.

SPEAKER_01 48:28

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:30

And so there was uh a general store, uh Blanton, for example, which you have the Blanton House.

SPEAKER_01 48:38

Yeah. Right. Um they must have been successful.

SPEAKER_00 48:43

Yeah, let me correct myself a little bit on the electrification. Um Marion had at least minimal service. No, that's not a correction, in 1892. 1892. And the extensive service was provided by Marion Light and Power. I said power and light, Marion Light and Power, founded by J.L. Morgan and Robert Bennett in 1908. And so the state of North Carolina allows for Duke Energy and for this to be taken out of private hands and put in the hands of utilities uh after this time, which is when you see Lake James built, et cetera.

SPEAKER_01 49:28

Well, just because like I s like I've said, your knowledge is so deep on this. So just in your opinion, uh what percentage of Marion, let's go let's go eighteen eighteen nineties, uh what percentage of Marion had uh electric lights? What percentage of the homes do you think?

SPEAKER_00 49:53

Extremely low. Yeah, yeah. Extremely it would have been a shot uh f to the businesses on Main Street and street lights. Right. And basically Marion. So it would have been very limited.

SPEAKER_01 50:10

So if I was a again, if I'm just an average guy and I'm I'm a farmer, sake, and uh oh I got I got more questions, Chuck, if you don't mind. Yeah. Uh so I'm a farmer and I'm coming in. I've got to be fascinated by this electric light thing. You know, just just seeing them there at the courthouse or on the street, that would almost be worth a trip to town. I mean, that was very modern. Right. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:38

Uh and so uh do we have a school system yet? Uh the school system was formed in the eighteen sixties or seventies is when public schools were were formed. So yes.

SPEAKER_01 50:57

All right, so we've got a a public school system.

SPEAKER_00 51:01

Yes. Well, okay, all right. I I didn't mean to interrupt you, but no, no, no, you're good. Um so on the on the service, uh you would have been in the in the eighteen hundreds and then in the early nineteen hundreds, and then it exp it expands out. Boardwalks, the construction of roads, law enforcement. I I think those are the are the are the primary services. Water and wastewater. Um there was not wastewater service, and so what happened to the to the sewage um that was you know hauled off or disposed of on site. Wells would would have been dug for each facility, each home or each business would have had their own their own water. Uh it's possible that there was a community water system, but it it looks like we're in uh the around 1920 when those utilities are are formed. So during this time there was not water, wastewater. Garbage may have been hauled off by the town. I don't know that. Uh the town purchased uh or took over the cemetery, which was in place, but uh took it over um in the in the 1920s. So city services start taking form, and some of them are are in place and some some aren't. Uh Marion uh City Council and the mayor were were vastly criticized for the town burning down and the fact that there was no paid fire department and there was no running water, and they basically used a fire brigade to limit the to limit the fire. So water, municipal water became a priority, and it still takes over ten years to do it, but water is is put in place.

SPEAKER_01 53:10

So uh topographically You know, now we have Main Street, Main Street's up high, and then we drop down to Garden. I imagine that's that hasn't changed much. I mean, don't you think Main Street's always kind of been on that little bump?

SPEAKER_00 53:31

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 53:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:32

And uh Larry Green and Suttle surveyed went back and and you can see the survey markers along the the town's original boundaries. Yeah, New Street, Henderson Street, Garden Street, Logan Street, and Main Street are uh now their Main Street was, as you know, amended and was supposed to come right through your location here. Right. And it it basically swings a little bit to the west and and is moved. So there was there was a relocation there. But yeah, Jim, it's it's like it is now. Uh you referenced were there, it's funny how how we progressed from your first question, which was, well, were there homes? Were there no, there was nothing. The first home I did find a reference uh was on uh Garden Street.

SPEAKER_01 54:23

What date was that, do you know?

SPEAKER_00 54:26

Uh I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_01 54:28

I I I've got it, but I I can't because I know that uh my house was started in 1912.

SPEAKER_00 54:36

Yeah. So this was in the 1800s.

SPEAKER_01 54:38

Yeah, so I'm I'm 20, 30 years after this.

SPEAKER_00 54:42

It's at the corner of um it's uh behind First Bank, which is where the where the the location was. So so so here's what we've done. We have established a possible link between the fire and why all of Marion's records are missing. Right. We cannot nail that down. That's one. Two, we've shed light on the location of Marion and um looked at the three locations and made some guesses, but also some found some things that um suggest where the where the three sites were, uh, some details about how Marion was auctioned and how it was formed and how how it kind of started as far as the clearing and the construction of the courthouse, that was pretty well known already. That's that's not new new information. But the auction of the town lots uh and who those people were and uh all of that is is laid out in my my paper. Um we established that Marion was incorporated three times. And I'm not sure that that was understood by someone, and I'm not sure that people would I I I get it, because I was county manager and understand what that incorporation means. And it's it's basically a the creation of a legal entity that the General Assembly exercised. But the question, why was it done three times?

SPEAKER_01 56:22

I'm still curious about that.

SPEAKER_00 56:24

And and I swear I think it's because it was dormant. And they had, when they said, well, let's let's get it going, they had to go back to the General Assembly to renew it. I guess. But to think that it was thriving and and active in those early years, I think, is is just not the case. Unidentified mayors and board members were were identified, and so they're in the record. We know who the uh the first mayor was likely, uh, and we know some other names of of people that were uh that that served in that uh served in that role. I didn't talk about the Marion Charter, but located the first Marion Charter. Cities have charters and it lays out what uh what their what their authorities are. And then we summarized the regulations, you know, the no playing in the streets, all of that kind of thing. Uh and we summarized some of the services. I don't know that I did a very good job of doing it with clarity, but what I just read off is what I sort of meant to meant to cover. And uh I do wish somebody would go in and um kind of pick this up and fill in some of the missing.

SPEAKER_01 57:47

Well, it's fascinating, especially if you live here, because I uh although logically I know it was it existed, but I can't think of Marion with a dirt street, you know. Uh uh I think of everything being paved and the sidewalks being concrete. And because you said boardwalk. Well boardwalk is a walk made out of boards. Yeah. Uh so uh and do can you can you think of any uh any what what any businesses that started early on Main Street? Uh what or just what kind of business was would have been down there?

SPEAKER_00 58:36

Well you'd have had a general store, a hardware store, okay, maybe some clothing. Or at least the uh the the uh yarn and whatever. Right. Um and so basically household items that could not be produced. Um, you know, they made their people made their own soap, they did, you know, all of that they did on their own. But there were certain items that you couldn't produce. And so you went to Marion and you and you purchased those items, and those business people made a living, obviously, off of those items that could not be readily manufactured.

SPEAKER_01 59:19

Well, I I'm trying to think why in the world would they even be a Marion? I mean, were we a stop off on the place on the way to Asheville? Like would travelers come through was there a saloon in town? There must have been. Oh, yes.

SPEAKER_00 59:36

Yeah, there were I think three or four.

SPEAKER_01 59:38

Yeah, yeah. So that would have been an attraction to people.

SPEAKER_00 59:42

Yeah, that was a big attraction.

SPEAKER_01 59:44

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Do you think it was kind of wild west or because you said it was a mean place in the beginning. You said it was a a tough place to be.

SPEAKER_00 59:55

Well, I'll I'll give you an example. The the town of Marion was named, obviously, for the the swamp fox. Right, Francis Marion. General Francis Marion. And every comment I've ever heard was they named it after, although there's no clear reference why it was named after him. And we and that was actually said by by some historians. You know, it was named after him. Every comment I've ever heard my whole life was that it was named after him because he was a hero of the revolution and helped defeat the British. Right. Okay. I found a document that said that probably more of the reason it was named after him was the people were endeared to him because he helped stabilize the frontier and defeat the uh uh the danger of the Cherokee Indians. Oh, really? Yes, sir. How about that? I I mean I don't I don't know that. Yeah. So it's probably a combination of his feats during the revolution and then uh stabilizing the uh and making safe people's lives um from uh from Indians. So, yes, to answer your question, it was a very rough, violent, uh rough place in in those very early years.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:24

So so people aren't a lot of people who live here now during this period of time, this time frame that you've captured, they probably weren't born here. They're probably immigrants, right? Uh from other countries. Uh what do you think our ancestry is? Do are we Scotch and Irish? Yeah, right, Scotch. That makes perfect sense. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:48

And so the McDowells and the Carsons and the Greenleys, those people settled this area, and then others other people may have pre people may have preceded them. I don't know about the order of it, but uh people certainly l moved into this area. Uh the Carson House was built in 1793. Right, okay. And so it and it was part of Burke County. Really? Yeah. The county was formed uh from Burke and McDowell and maybe a little section of of Bunkham.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:21

Oh, I see. Okay. Well, well, that's uh that's really interesting the way that developed. I had no idea that Carson was such a uh a conniver, I'm gonna say, I'll just say it. I mean, I I I think it was smart what he did, uh, because he really he really guaranteed that his progeny would would have a place, you know, would have a place to stay and have a have a city close to where they their farm was, the Harson House farm. So uh I think that was pretty smart. Plus he was pretty rich for the time, wasn't he? Right. He he was. He was land rich for sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:10

Land rich and um made money uh manufacturing whiskey and other folks as well.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:19

So I didn't know he was in the whiskey business. Absolutely. Man, that's a place to be, isn't it? You know? If you're gonna No comment. And that may still hold true today. Get in the whiskey business, you can't go wrong. Yeah. Well, what else? You got anything else you want to tell me?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:37

No, sir. I'd love to come back. I apologize for being fragmented.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:43

It wasn't fragmented at all. Uh but while I got you here, I'm going to take advantage of you. Uh what do you think about I I asked this of everybody. What do you think about Marion? Uh of Marion? Yeah, what do you think?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:57

Just generally, are you happy with it? Oh my gosh. I'm so loyal and love this community. I know you did. The community was good to me. And uh I I'm very loyal. It frustrates me when I see anytime I see our neighbors do better than us. That's I don't like that. But we we will keep working hard and pushing and um improving. Do you think we're on the move? Do you think we're progressing? Oh, there's no question.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:30

Really?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:30

There's we we had the um the secretary of HUD, meaning a member of President Trump's cabinet here yesterday. Really? And there was a group of about 60, and he um dedicated or acknowledged the uh the Gibbons Estates project in Clinchfield Mills. Oh, yeah. And that's 145 senior uh senior apartments that will be constructed and are much needed. There's some commercial activity um towards the interstate that uh is is occurring. You've got you've got a lot of business locations uh that are that are taking place. So yeah, we're we're hot. Lake James is hot. Um, you know, there's there's a lot to I think to be positive about.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:24

Well, and and you know, I I don't know if you heard the podcast or not, but Annette Bryant was up here and and I was talking to her about the the same thing, and and she's she's kind of all up on Marion. She she likes it, she she likes being here, as do I, uh because I was born here too. And um it just seems like uh even in the turmoil of today, it's a pretty comfortable place to live, don't you think? It is. I I don't see the turmoil that I see outside of Marion. Right. So I'm pretty comfortable being here. I know you're doing a lot.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:08

I I tell people, I appreciate that. I tell people if you like Marion when you move here, you'll love it long term because it grows on you. And that is mainly a product of the people. The people are just very, very nice and um traditional. So, Chuck, when are we going to get a Chick-fil-A?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:36

We are trying. And they have looked. That's the first thing uh people talk to me and they they'll say, Well, are you kind of in on things? And I go, Well, I I know some stuff. First question, when are we going to get a Chick-fil-A? Uh and and Janet and I like Chick-fil-A, but it's not what I'll tell you what. Uh you bring in a what's that one we like? Uh you bring in an in and out burger, and we're we're ready to go.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:14

Yeah. Yeah, we get that question. Um and they've they've been here, they've looked, they've actually pursued sites, but um the sites didn't did not materialize. Well, those people are very specific.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:31

They are. They uh I read an article once about McDonald's, and uh McDonald's would uh actually fly over parking lots to see how many oil spots were in the parking lot to see how many cars parked there to determine whether or not they wanted to put a building in.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:51

Yeah, they fast food and commercial chain is uh driven by concrete and rooftops and development. They they do don't want to be the first to locate.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:06

Right, right. And well, so now I'm gonna I'm gonna try to put you on the spot. I'll keep asking questions till I do. Um in McDowell County, if you go out to eat, where would you go?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:23

Oh my goodness, Joe. I can't I love them all. Do you? Yeah, yeah. Um, I love uh all of them. Okay. All right. That's a nice but they're uh I mean um Yeah, I like them all.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:41

It seems like did you know that well of course you knew, we're getting a sushi place in town.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:50

Did you know that? Yeah, and uh copper penny. Copper penny looks like construction's moving along on that. Yeah we went to Morganton, I think, and ate at the uh at the same sushi place chain that's coming here to Marion and I'm pretty excited about it because it was good. Uh y you have to like sushi, of course.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:13

But you've got an Indian is it Indian cuisine uh in uh Lady Marion Plaza as well. You mean um Thai?

SPEAKER_01 1:09:25

Thai, I'm sorry. Yeah, basil a little different, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:29

Um yes, we've eaten there a couple times. I think it's very good. Yeah. So uh uh yeah, I'm I'm pretty pleased because if if we could just get theater here in town. A theater? Yeah, you know, live theater. Uh MACA MACA tried, and then we have foothills, but just something a little more stable. You can do that, Chuck. That's you can handle that.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:57

Well, I tell the story when when Rockwell located here, how we we dealt initially with engineers and technical people and you know, people just looking at the site, determining if it would work. Ultimately, we dealt with a van load of of wives and people that would locate here. And uh I didn't even have my seatbelt fixed, and the woman said, Tell me about your arts program.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:28

Really?

SPEAKER_00 1:10:29

And I kept that in my mind and used it the the quality of life that people expect is not always consistent with what people here uh think. And so uh you've got to have a a variety of things, and the arts are important to people, and I hammered that with um you know, as far as being supportive. It's a shame that it's it's not um as active as maybe it used to be.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:58

Well, I mean I don't know that it's not, but I I don't I don't think it is, uh and I think it could be and probably will be. I d I I'm certainly not being uh critical of anything like that, but it's just something that we enjoy and when we if there's a production that we want to see, a live production, we have to go out of town to see it. And that means we eat out of town. Right. Uh we maybe stay out of town, uh and I just uh that's one of the things I'd like to see uh is Well, yeah, and so you've got a breadth of factors that that uh people want to see and that people expect.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:43

And it's uh again, I again I tell people like the YMCA. I've had people all over the nation look at our YMCA and say, My gosh, how did you guys do that? That is that is unbelievable as an actual class operation, isn't it? And so we need to keep focused on, and we're way off subject, and you're good at doing this. You've got me got me going there. But um we need to focus on um a diversity of experiences for people, right? Exactly. And that's that's what we need to do.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:19

And we do have a top-notch why. Well, is there is there anything else that uh you want to say? Because I I want you to know, uh, and I did take advantage of you because I I don't get to talk to you one-on-one very much anymore. And uh I I still think about us walking up and down the streets of Marion with a crowd behind us, and you're telling about the architecture. And that was kind of fun for a while, but uh it was cold.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:48

Yeah, yeah, it was a New Year's Eve, I think.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:50

Yeah, New Year's Eve. We did it what a couple of times we did it.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:54

And I'll come back and do the homes. I would love it if you would do that. Give me two or three months and I'll put that information together. But I appreciate it, appreciate what you're doing. Enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:06

I appreciate you coming. Um let me say before I sign off that uh have a new way for you to contact me now. You can contact me on my email, which is on the porch with Jim Williams. That's one word, on the porch with Jim Williams at gmail.com. Uh it's a good way for you to contact me. Um it's direct, and so I'd appreciate it if you contact me with your opinions, any questions that you have, any ideas, if you know someone or you are someone that wants to come up and and talk to us, I'd love to have you. Once again, and I'm I'm not gonna say Dr. Charles Albernathy because I it it's really it's really Chuck, and and and I I do take advantage of him because uh I feel like I can. I feel like I'm close enough. Thank you again, Chuck, uh, for coming up, and we'll see you next week on the board.