Episode 20 "Help for Battered Women"

In Episode 20 our first podcast guest, Bethany Alhaidari, the executive director of our local domestic violence protection advocacy organization, shares her battle for custody of her daughter and describes the services available to battered women in our area.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:04

The Smoke and Gabble Podcast is now in session. I'm retired Judge Chip Small, presiding over this podcast with my bailiff, Madeline Rose. We welcome you and ask you to join us as we look at our justice system from a unique, candid, and inside view. Maddie, what's on the docket today?

SPEAKER_01 0:21

Judge, today we have our first guest to the Smoke and Gabble Podcast, Bethany Al Hadri, the Executive Director of Sage. Our listeners may recognize her name. She is the woman who fled Saudi Arabia with her daughter and was later granted permission to defy a Saudi custody order because of serious risk of death if she returned to Saudi Arabia.

SPEAKER_00 0:42

Oh, welcome, Bethany. Is it okay if I call you Bethany?

SPEAKER_02 0:44

You can call me Bethany.

SPEAKER_00 0:45

Thank you. Thank you for joining us today. In our last two episodes, we shared true crime stories of domestic violence victims that were killed when they left their abusers. We also talked about domestic violence being a silent epidemic and discussed the reasons why women stay with their abusers. Today we want to share with our listeners what services are available to assist women who are victims of domestic violence. But before we do that, would you mind briefly sharing your history with your ex and how that became national news?

SPEAKER_02 1:15

Yeah. Wow. Thanks for having me, first of all. We just we just dive right in, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:22

I try to hold it to 15, 20 minutes.

SPEAKER_02 1:25

That's fair, that's fair. Um yeah, I was working in Saudi Arabia, was doing my law degree in human rights law at the time and researching Saudi Arabia there. I ended up getting married and had a had a wonderful little girl named Zaina in 2014, and then again was in an abusive relationship and tried to um leave that relationship. It sounds like you've been talking about how leaving is the most dangerous time and where things escalate. Um that certainly was the case for me. So um there's different like laws in Saudi Arabia regarding exiting the country. So I was stuck there for about two years with my daughter just because of powers that fathers Were you still living with him then? Um no. I was I was separated. We were living in different households at the time, and my daughter was living with me full-time. Um but it was when I filed for um divorce and custody of my daughter that things escalated in Saudi. Um if you read it, the the order ended up being that I um lost my lost my parental rights to Zaina Um, a Saudi judge in 2019, found both her father and I unfit. Um, but his basis for determining me unfit to parent was that I was Western. I had a Western culture. Um my daughter spoke English fluently, and it was an indicator of my Western influence on the child, and she needed to be protected.

SPEAKER_00 2:53

So holy smokes.

SPEAKER_02 2:54

Yes. But New York Times is the one that broke that story. It kind of went crazy. We ended up um getting some support from the U.S. Embassy in Riyadh. Um, and also just from the media, I think it changed, it changed things for us a bit. But we eventually made it out of Saudi Arabia, but it was still a fight to stay and remain in Washington State.

SPEAKER_00 3:15

But you won that fight.

SPEAKER_02 3:16

We won that fight. I had to change laws with our with some of our representatives to do it, but it ended up being a really unique battle, and I think makes Washington State a good place for somebody who may be experiencing abuse in a country that doesn't recognize basic human rights.

SPEAKER_00 3:34

Well, we're glad you're here. How's your daughter doing?

SPEAKER_01 3:36

She's awesome.

SPEAKER_02 3:38

She's doing very well.

SPEAKER_01 3:39

I'm gonna interrupt you guys for a quick recess. The Smoke and Gavel Podcast is sponsored by Gatekeeper Press and Judge Small Books, the publisher of Judge Small Books. You are not a lawyer anymore, a primer for those who want to be a good judge. It's dark justice and true justice. For more information, listeners of our show are invited to visit his website at judgesmallbooks.com. Feel free to send us your comments and questions you'd like us to cover in future podcasts at Judgesmallbooks.com.

SPEAKER_00 4:08

Okay, well now tell us how you became the executive director of Sage.

SPEAKER_02 4:13

Yeah, um, it was a great opportunity. My my parents are living in Wenatchee. Um I went to Cashmere High School and they stayed here. So um after I went overseas, I was working in Washington, D.C. for a nonprofit organization that got individuals who were wrongfully detained out of jail and brought them back home. Um the opportunity opened up at SAGE, and my daughter and I had actually been clients at Sage previously. Um so when I saw the role, I felt like it would be a good opportunity to bring my skills and my background to our community here. And I applied and here we are three years later.

SPEAKER_00 4:50

Well, I I'm proud to I joined the board after they'd already hired you, and and it's uh blessing for me after having experienced innumerable uh D V cases in my career as a judge to hopefully be on the end of things that that help women. I I was kind of limited in in uh what I could do as a judge uh because I had to be objective. Right. And so I I did train numerous uh DV volunteers at at Sage and its predecessors on how the system worked, but that's as far as I could go. I couldn't be an advocate or anything like that. But now I can, because I've retired. So can you tell us uh what kind of services Sage would offer a woman in the situations that we've been discussing?

SPEAKER_02 5:38

Yeah, um Sage Advocacy Center has been around since 1978 and started with sexual assault victim services, but is expanded to include domestic violence victim services, child abuse victim services, and general crime victim services. But the domestic violence victim services are by far the largest program that we have. Um advocacy and support services are available to anybody who's experiencing domestic violence. Um, that could include therapy. If an individual qualifies, we're able to give somebody free therapy if they qualify. There's a domestic violence emergency shelter. We have 33 bed spaces available. It's in a confidential location.

SPEAKER_00 6:18

That's not unusual for organizations like yours, right?

SPEAKER_02 6:22

Yeah, most we hope that every county has a shelter that serves them. Um we happen to be the only one serving Shillana-Douglas counties.

SPEAKER_00 6:31

Right. But I our listeners hopefully will be nationwide. I just want to assure them that just because we have people like you helping women here, other people are like you out there in the country helping others.

SPEAKER_02 6:43

That's right. Um we supported about, you know, 2,000, more than 2,000 individuals in the last or in 2024.

SPEAKER_00 6:52

So that's out of a population of how many?

SPEAKER_02 6:56

Well, Shillan and Douglas County, it's a small population. So we're a very rural area, and I I think it's hard sometimes for people to imagine how often we have people calling. We had more than 6,000 calls to our 24-7 helpline in the last year. So it's a problem that, like you said, nowhere is immune. It can happen to anybody. It doesn't matter what your educational background is, what your socioeconomic background, your race, your religion, like this happens to anyone. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:29

So a woman calls in, what what happens?

SPEAKER_02 7:32

Well, we have a 24-7 team that will answer the phone and we have advocates that are available to speak to somebody and kind of walk them through options. Of course.

SPEAKER_00 7:42

Do they call you before or after they call 911?

SPEAKER_02 7:46

Oh, if it's an emergency, we they have to call 911. We don't do the response, but we can support, we can support them while they're waiting if they haven't already called 911. But it happens at any point in time. Sometimes we have people who've been in a relationship for years. They've never reported. The majority of the people that we have walk through the doors at Sage Advocacy Center have not gone to law enforcement. Um and they have like fears about maybe children or they don't have resources or don't understand the system. Even it can be even confusing if you have a background for navigating the legal system, especially if you're with somebody who's likely to be highly contentious with you or or conflictual. So the majority haven't reported to law enforcement and maybe have been considering it and will come through, but we also do respond to the crisis. Um and we will if sometimes it's law enforcement that's giving us the call, and they'll have an advocate come and support a victim.

SPEAKER_00 8:48

Right at the seed.

SPEAKER_02 8:49

Yes, that's correct. They have the right to um screen for the domestic violence emergency shelter at any time of day. So our after hours crisis team will come in and support. We also help with civil domestic violence protection orders for victims, um, just helping them navigate paperwork and the court system where they can go and what what about finances?

SPEAKER_00 9:15

One of the things we talked about in prior podcasts is they're i the abuser may be the the only breadwinner. Yeah. So is there help there?

SPEAKER_02 9:26

That's very common. Um while somebody is staying at the shelter, they've they've got 90 days. We cover the cost of basic food and necessities, we cover the cost of if they need clothing that they've lost as a result, or kids have toys that maybe they can't go back and and grab for any reason. Um we do cover the cost of that for that 90-day duration. So it does give somebody a time to just focus on themselves, focus on what are the resources that are available. Research does show that those 90 days after some crisis has occurred are really important for providing support.

SPEAKER_00 10:00

Yeah, that that's a longer period of time than I thought.

SPEAKER_02 10:03

Yeah, yeah. That's good. Um so that's one way. We also have emergency financial assistance, which is available, but that's not an ongoing cost. It's, you know, if somebody has lost something as a result of domestic violence or or is in need of something to accommodate, we can provide emergency financial assistance if it aligns with the policy.

SPEAKER_00 10:24

So do do you help them either hook up with another family member or they could uh get out of after the 90 days, or do you have any kind of employment counseling so they can maybe find a job to be self-sufficient?

SPEAKER_02 10:38

Advocacy looks like something different for every person based on what they need. So the team has done revision of a resume for somebody who asked for support for that. They've helped them, you know, walk through and and and place applications for jobs, they've helped them even in meeting with attorneys or reporting to law enforcement because maybe this has been happening for several years and they finally feel like they want a report. Um, and law enforcement comes to us often and takes those reports at SAGE so that they don't have to leave and they feel comfortable and they have their advocate with them. We screen for therapy, so if somebody is wanting to get a plan and support, we can do that as well. But as a we don't force anybody to take any services, we're not allowed to during those 90 days. Um, but we do try to provide all of the necessary supports and resources that we can.

SPEAKER_00 11:30

Now, are you successful in helping women get away from their abusers? Do you track those numbers? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:37

I know a lot of them go back. Yeah, success is a is a difficult definition in this field, and I think seeds is kind of what we try to go off of. We planted a seed and we were somebody who didn't judge, somebody who they knew that they could come back if they weren't ready enough to be able to do that. If they come back, they come back. Yeah. Um, and I think there is a strong sense of shame and guilt internally for a lot of people who are trying to leave. I know I I experienced that, but there are so many factors at play. So our team is trained and we do annual ongoing training, and our services have to be trauma-informed. So I do think that because we listen, because we don't force an outcome, because we're we're there to advocate and provide resources and be a non-judgmental trauma-informed ear for somebody they are more likely to return.

SPEAKER_00 12:34

And I know what during all the years that I was training people there, uh many of your staff have been victims themselves. So they can, I think, easily empathize with your clients.

SPEAKER_02 12:44

Yeah, lived experience is such a a superpower to have. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:49

So switching gears a little bit, what what's your uh uh role or experience as part of Sage with law enforcement? Because we know there's mandatory arrest laws if there's PC within 24 hours. Yep. What's that relationship like?

SPEAKER_02 13:06

Yeah. Um law enforcement can call us if there's a domestic violence um call. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:13

Because I've met officers not necessarily from our geographic area, but from maybe more urban areas that don't.

SPEAKER_02 13:20

Well, and it depends on how their community has has set up their program. I do think Washington State has a has a statutory requirement for agencies like ours that you have 15 minutes to get in touch with a with an advocate. Um so law enforcement doesn't have to make that call. They do need to provide the resources, and our name is on there. So sometimes that will be what they do, and they do that regularly. And that resource offers, we work together, all four local law enforcement agencies that we are serving in Chillan and Douglas County work together to put this domestic violence victims right pamphlet. So we improved it so that there's more information for victims when they do respond at the scene.

SPEAKER_00 13:59

Do you offer training to the officers?

SPEAKER_02 14:01

Um we we could in theory. We do trainings alongside our detectives, but that's more about child abuse prevention. Um but we we work closely with all of them.

SPEAKER_00 14:13

So that's more of a sheriff's responsibility to see that his officers are trained and how to respond?

SPEAKER_02 14:19

Um I would just say that we aren't the one that's providing training for law enforcement in general, um, but we do work closely with them and we've talked about it.

SPEAKER_00 14:29

Yeah, the reason I asked when I was first on the bench, this was kind of new. And and uh uh I went to one of the trainings that the state was putting on for the Sheriff's Department and was kind of shocked to uh I think observe more than one officer acting like he was an abuser. Well, yeah, that kind of opened my eyes. Yeah. But I after years on the bench, I I think that uh I've been really impressed, frankly, with our local law enforcement and and how well they respond. For the listeners' information, I think if you look at statistics, they can be misleading because if you're in a city where law enforcement isn't isn't necessarily going to break their back to arrest the PERP within 24 hours, they they may have a very low uh rate of arrests per population, and yet the amount of DV in that community may be much higher than here, where law enforcement is much more responsive, so there's more arrests, even though per person there's less domestic violence. Hopefully the listener understands right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:43

Absolutely. Um three years ago when I came on as the executive director at Sage, that relationship w wasn't very strong, I would say, and and there was a lot of valid reasons for that. Um what I've seen in the past three years is a major shift in how law enforcement responds to domestic violence for for the better. Um, how responding officers are engaging with the community. Um not a lot of people know that Sage was initially started by officers from volunteer officers from Wenatchee Police Department. And I do think that at the time when I came on, trying to get the message across to all agencies that, hey, did you know that we're here? And within 15 minutes, somebody can talk to a victim and they're more likely to have a better outcome. So I think both of the chiefs, like Chief Johnson and East Wenatchee, Chief Reinfeld is there now. Um, but Chief Crown was there prior at Wenatchee PD, and then Sheriff Morrison was there as well as um Sheriff Morris, and they all were really, really supportive in getting their their team to know hey, you can call Sage 24-7, they're a resource, they're here and they're available, and I think we've seen a lot more of that happening of victims being dropped off, of law enforcement coming to our agency. It's been great to see the coordination and collaboration.

SPEAKER_00 17:06

Good news.

SPEAKER_02 17:07

Yeah. From what I've seen and experienced, a lot of times we're working more with survivors, uh, but the stories that they tell us are are very similar. There's a lot of patterns in human behavior. Um I don't have the answer for how to how to to deal with that in the aftermath. I do think that there's a lot of um cultural norms that contribute. Yeah, generational norms. Um I I agree that conflict resolution is helpful. I think that something that people forget is that when you're talking about intimate partner violence specifically, they're treating their partner that way because of a power dynamic that exists, and other people are not necessarily going to see that. And I think that's something that people forget a lot of times. Somebody will come in and they'll say, you know, I'm so ashamed, my brother. Like he would never do that. He's such a nice guy. And I don't think people are as familiar with the fact that nice women or men can be capable of shocking things and they may still be pleasant and be able to joke and laugh.

SPEAKER_00 18:16

I think it was in our last episode I shared how I had a client when I was a lawyer who, you know, upper middle class, living with a woman that was literally beating the hell out of him. And he ended up dating his house to get out of the relationship. Just gave her his house and moved out of town. Yeah. I mean, it yeah, it affects all economic classes, and you don't know.

SPEAKER_02 18:40

I mean, you don't know.

SPEAKER_00 18:42

Okay. Okay, well, anything else do you want to share with our listeners?

SPEAKER_02 18:48

Um so if somebody or someone they love is experiencing domestic violence, they can call um Sage Advocacy Center's 24-7 Crisis Line at 509-663-7446. Um and if we can't connect locally to resources, we can try to support in other areas as well. I do think that it's important that people understand that we have an instinct when people do go back to say, you know, I can't believe you're going back. Why would you do that? You know better than this. And there's already enough internal shame for survivors who are staying. That doesn't help in the long run because women or men who are in abusive situations are more likely to get out of those if they have community support. And isolation is a major factor. Um, and I don't think people realize how some of those comments towards loved ones, they may be well-intended, can prevent support in the future.

SPEAKER_00 19:44

Yeah, that makes sense. Unless they have to reach out for help.

SPEAKER_02 19:48

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:50

Yeah, I kind of wrote about that in my first novel, Star of Justice. I had a victim there, Sunshine. And uh that she was kind of isolated too.

SPEAKER_02 19:58

Yeah. I I do think that something that Washington State is doing, a pilot program that I am very excited about. Um and it's going to potentially be brought here to where we are, and I think it's going to be great. So in 2023, the Washington State Legislature approved a domestic violence high risk legal assessment team pilot program. And it's made up of domestic violence community-based victim service providers, like like Sage Advocacy Center is, working with the prosecuting attorney's office and working with law enforcement. And there's great science and there's great like measures where you can do uh domestic violence lethality risk assessment. Law enforcement can do it. There's some questions that they ask, and it there are patterns that are likely to indicate that somebody is at risk of being killed.

SPEAKER_00 20:55

Yeah, I think DOC even uses similar metrics for where they place prisoners within the system.

SPEAKER_02 21:01

Yeah. The response that we have for child abuse investigations, a multidisciplinary team response and the like ability to information share and to support one another with law enforcement, with child protective services, with our agencies, interviewers, that has improved the way we respond to child abuse investigations. To see something like this coming to our community, I see a high need. And I also believe that that will be a really great program. If we're able to coordinate in the same way and collaborate in the same way with law enforcement and with the prosecuting attorney's office that we do for child abuse investigations for high-risk individuals trying to flee domestic violence, it'll be a game changer.

SPEAKER_00 21:46

Excellent.

SPEAKER_02 21:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:48

Good. We wanted some good news.

SPEAKER_02 21:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:50

Well, thanks for joining us today, Bethany. And since this is the Smoke and Gavel Podcast, I'd like to give you a premium hand-rolled cigar as a part of gift.

SPEAKER_02 21:59

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 21:59

It's a mild one. Hope you enjoy it or feel free to give it to one of your loved ones.

SPEAKER_02 22:04

Thank you so much, and thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_00 22:06

Thank you much.

SPEAKER_02 22:07

I appreciate being able to talk about it.

SPEAKER_00 22:10

Thanks for listening today. We hope you enjoyed this episode of the Smoke and Gavel Podcast. To learn more, visit judgesmallbooks.com. Don't forget to like, subscribe, and share to stay connected. Also, don't hesitate to send us questions. Until next time, God bless.