Writer Wander 020 - Brandon Sanderson is WRONG about Elves

Not wrong, he just thinks differently than Wander...which is not all that different from being wrong

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:24

Writer Wander Twenty. Why I Will Never Be Like Brandon Sanderson. Okay? Now, this is not a clickbait title, nor is it Rage Bait. I've talked about Brandon Sanderson before, and some people might have perceived it in a negative light, but I always reiterate, I have an immense respect for him as an author. He is very talented. I have a lot of problems with his approach to fantasy. I and I personally would question whether it's fantasy at all, but he is a talented author, and there is no question about that whatsoever. Okay? So, if anything, I I don't want to give the impression that I hate Brandon Sanderson or anything like that. But one thing is very clear, I am not Brandon Sanderson. And no, it's it's not just because I'm not a more uh a white Mormon guy from Utah. The reason I'm not Brandon Sanderson, and I realize that looking at an article that came out recently, the reason I'm not Brandon Sanderson is because our approach to fiction is completely different. Now, what is it that's making me want to write about this? Um, a couple days as of the recording of this podcast, a an article came out saying that uh, well, it came out in multiple outlets where saying something along the lines of, you know, Brandon Sanderson explains why he doesn't write about elves or or dwarves, right? And I think that um when I first read the article, uh I got the impression that Brandon Sanderson was being a little dismissive toward the concept of elves or or dwarves, but it turns out that when you look at the article, you find out that it's actually being sourced from a video that Brandon Sanderson made, and that video uh is called let me see where it is. Uh crap, I I had it right here. I can't believe I lost it. Give it give me one moment. It's called Writing Modern Epic Fantasy A Sander A F AQ, right? And you know, and I listened to the video, and I'm not gonna lie, I I was pumped to have an excuse to to scream at the phone, you know, because you know, rage gets the views, and if I can if I can get justified rage over something, then that's awesome because you know being angry can be fun sometimes, you know. You know, you know, sometimes it's it's fun to be angry, and I was looking forward to you know to being pissed off by what he said, but and I probably should have expected this, and I guess it it it says more about me for thinking that it wouldn't be like this, but Brandon Sanderson actually gave a very reasonable take on why he does not include elves or or dwarves in his fantasy setting, right? And the conceit of the of the video, right, was that in the early 2000s he wrote an article about why Tolkien ruined fantasy, and it was a bit of a clickbait article, and what he was saying was that you know he felt that um Tolkien did a very good job, but because he did such a good job, fantasy authors uh were caught in his shadow, and they were just trying to constantly replicate what he did. Um and you know what I can I can agree with that up until a certain point. I just phrase it, I just phrase it differently, right? So to give you a little bit of a spoiler at as to what I'm gonna be getting at, right? I don't think that just because you create a world that has elves, dwarves, and superficially looks Tolkinian, that doesn't necessarily mean that your work is in some sense under Tolkien's shadow, right? And in fact, I'm gonna argue that it is not even all that necessary to do something new with those concepts to be to be considered as someone who faithfully follows that tradition. But I'm getting ahead of myself. And basically what Sanderson said was that the reason he wasn't attracted to that kind of fiction was because the his approach to fantasy, right, the the way he conceptualizes fantasy, I feel that he conceptualizes it almost like a scientific experiment. And in that very same FAQ, he said that he's interested in stretching the limits of what a fantasy novel can be, what could constitute a fantasy, a fantasy setting. And I think that that is a very good and fair description of what he's trying to do. Obviously, it comes from himself, and it's very consistent with his kind of writing. You can tell, you know, with Brandon Sanderson. He again, he's the most famous fantasy author living right now, and that's actually getting stuff published. You know, the the George R. R. Martin is probably more popular than him, but you know, there's uh there's all that drama surrounding him as in his current book. I have some nuanced opinions on that. Um I don't like it when people jump on him. I think that pe a lot of the people who hate on George R. R. Martin are people who have never sat down to write a book and and don't understand the amount of pressure and the amount of loose threads that you have to keep up with to get a book done. Um, of course, I'm not I'm not I'm not George R. R. Martin's biggest fan either, because I don't like what he did to the fantasy genre either. But again, another talented writer, his his style is just something that I have a moral disdain for, but that doesn't take away from the quality of the art itself. But back to Brandon Sanderson, it this is all a very good description of Brandon Sanderson's approach because you see his settings, you see his complex magic systems that have very well-defined rules that are that are almost that are essentially scientific, and a lot of his plots revolve around manipulating those systems almost like a almost like a video game in a sense, which is I guess it's what a lot of people like, but it's what turns me off, that it feels too systems-oriented. And that side that sort of systems orientation around magic, when I see it in fantasy, the problem, and again, this is the through line that I landed at at the end. The problem is that it reminds me of our modern world because what defines our modern world, our current reality, is systems behind systems behind system, complex bureaucracies filled with paperwork that's now gone digital, that manage how the entire society functions. Metrics behind metrics, charts going up and down, up and down, and systems that qualify things that probably are more qualitative than quantitative. So it it's you know, it's sort of like how people nowadays appoint to GDP as an example of, oh, the economy's doing great. Look at the GDP. Well, the GDP does not necessarily reflect human well-being. And in a similar sense, um, I feel that that's why that's why my aversion to the very system-dominated approach, in my opinion, of Brandon Sanderson, is so it's so apparent. And he's very insistent on trying something new with his fantasy, on always trying to create a new creature, create a new beast, meet new new concepts and whatnot. And these things in and of themselves are not bad. You know, in my own fiction, I also occasionally try to create things that are quote-unquote new. The difference between me and Brandon Sanderson, and fundamentally the reason why I will never be like Brandon Sanderson, is because Brandon Sanderson is interested in trying new things with fantasy. He's interested in creating things that are new. Whereas me, in my fantasy fiction, I'm not trying to create something that's new. I'm trying to create something that feels ancient. Something that feels like it was written ages ago or an approximation of that of that old time period, and I want it to feel truly mythic. Something that belongs in the the dream subconsciousness of of human memory, that something that we have a profound understanding of even before we look at it, you know. And I feel that that's where the main difference of my approach ends up being, right? So I think about elves, right? Brandon Sanderson he actively avoids elves, he avoids dwarves in his fantasy setting. Because again, he's treating it almost like a scientific experiment, and that's probably a lot due to his chemistry background, which obviously gives a lot of the flavor he has to his settings, right? However, the reason that I find an attraction to elves and dwarves conceptually is because I feel that, you know, I feel that, and I feel that this is also what's missing in the conversation here, is that when you think of an elf, you think of dwarves, and you think of dragons, these are these are not arbitrary creatures, right? These are not like creatures that you know someone just sat down and thought through, you know, over the course of nothing, right? They're not something that they're not the product of an individual, these are creatures that are the products of generations upon generations of human beings slowly coming up through osmosis with myths that were eventually coalesced and gathered together into the conceptions that we now have of elves, dwarves, dragons, and all these other mythological creatures. These are creatures that are not the product of a single mind. That they're not the product of a single mind, and that's why they're still compelling to this day. You know, elves did not belong to Tolkien, dwarves did not belong to Tolkien, and yes, in theory, he could have come out with some with some similar race that had its own thing and was uniquely cool, but the aim of Tolkien, and I feel that what should be the aim of fantasy should be in continuing the long conversation we have had with the past concerning our mythological culture. Because our myths are a language, a language that transcends tongues, that transcends time. And I feel that when we when the fantasy genre steers away from a lot of its mythic material, and it does so solely because it has this desire to create a new artifice, to be a new artifice, to to bring a new creation. Again, there's nothing intrinsically wrong about that. Uh, you know, the both things are not there's nothing mutually exclusive about either things. There's there's space for both kinds of fiction. But I feel that when you when when you had like a wave of people like dissing on classic fantasy, this is not what Brandon Sanderson did, but this was something that was very common during the 2000s. Um when you had that wave of people just dissing on classic fantasy and constantly trying to trying to subvert it, it feels like they were missing the forest for for the trees. Because again, like fantasy is meant to bring that that creative imaginary that is the collective product of all human society. It is it is meant to uh cobble it together into a cohesive whole. It's not meant to portray the vision of just a particular person, it will portray the vision of a particular person, so long as it's put into a given novel and given a particular structure. So the author is always an important figure. Don't get me wrong about that, but the power behind elves, the power behind dwarves, is that they they have they have evolved alongside us conceptually, and there's something organic about these creatures that come out of the tradition that is, dare I say, almost impossible. I won't say impossible, but almost impossible to replicate as uh compared to something a race or uh a creature or an entity that is the product of the mind of a single man in a single generation during the course of a single story. Because again, you can't myth is not something that you that you can create out of nothing, it is something that you have to weave together, and that is what makes it feel fundamentally authentic, and and that is why I will never be Brandon Sanderson because I I feel again in my opinion, I feel that his stories, no matter how good they are, and they're great, it's a talented writer, but their stories do not capture that mythic layer. They they represent a rupture in that conversation that has been going on for for generations, right? And to Brandish to Sanderson's credit, um he he has softened his opinions on you know elves and and dwarves over the years, according to that, to that same video. However, I feel that he softened them for you know for the wrong reasons, right? I I think he again it's a case where he might be missing the forest for the trees because I feel that you know he's focusing it more on the angle of like man, who am I to to poo on someone's parade? You know, who am I to be a party pooper? Who am I to ruin someone's fun? You know, if people want to enjoy classic fantasy, let them enjoy classic fantasy, right? And I I've never I never liked that kind of attitude about anything, that sort of like libertine approach where oh, you know, people like it, just just leave them alone, man. No, I feel that like the most interesting conversations that you can have are precisely when you ask yourself, you know, what is that thing that you like and is it is it worth liking? I know that there's an entire conversation about whether art is is a whether the value of art is objective or subjective. If you can't tell, I I do land on the objective side, but I I think that irrespective of whether you disagree with me on art being subjective or or objective, I I think that you know you have to admit that you know the best debates usually happen when we at the very least act as if things matter. We act as if you know things matter. Well, when people take like a hard stance on something, even if it's something that I that I disagree with, I respect that. You know, that's what I respect a lot about George R.R. Martin. You know, we have completely different conceptions of fantasy, and I find, you know, his worldview, I find his you know, his approach to his characters repulsive, but his technique and his abat his ability to weave it all together, it is unquestionably the work of a master. And I will never take that away from him because I can recognize the craft, even even though I feel that the the message it is pointing toward is not the correct message. It's not the message that that should be pointed toward, and it's not the message that can propel culture forward. But I feel that, you know, when Brandon Brandon Sanderson just keeps it like, you know, authors have just been, you know, doing they've been doing like different things with like this these mythical things with these mythical creatures from the past, these traditional creatures from the past, you know, and they do good things with it. What matters is that it's a good book, bro. It's and you know, just let it happen, right? And you know, I I know I sound like an old man screaming at the clouds right now, but I think that this this is an interesting conversation, and you know, um, you know, if if I had Sanderson in front of me, you know, I'd treat him for some coffee, and you know, I'd love to talk to him about this because I I think this is a very cool subject that it often gets brought up, and again, thanks to Sanderson for bringing it up, even though we don't agree. But I think that again, missing the forest for the trees. I've said that like a thousand times, but I I think I lost a point I was about to make just before that. Give me one moment. Right, is that you know, Sanderson's softening stance is based on like this libertine idea of, you know, if it makes you happy, do it. And if regardless of whether you agree with that or not, I feel that we need like something a little heftier, a little, a little meatier to justify um why it is that some people go the more traditional route and why it is that other people choose to choose to not go for it. And what I think what what Sanderson is missing, right, is that when you don't have these creatures in your setting, in some variety, when you don't have these creatures in your setting, in a sense you you lose the mythic quality of the story. Am I saying that you need to have dwarves or or elves in your setting? Well, no, you can you can mix it up, right? But you know, the utility of using these creatures, it is not without reason. There is a reason why the figure of an elf, the concept of an elf, resonates with so many people because it again it feels it feels ancient. It is a shorthand for evoking an ancient time. And you know, let's say that I created a new creature. I had a novel, I had another novel, um, where uh I had these creatures that were the product of a crystal moon that emerged in the sky and infected people and be turned them into undead zombies that have like blue crystal growths um coming out of their body, and that's a super cool concept. I love it, and I'll probably find a way to integrate something similar to that in the novel I'm writing right now. But that kind of creature, that kind of creature, assuming you know, assuming I don't find a way to hybridize it with other ancient ideas, that kind of creature taken on its own does not evoke that that mythic understanding or that mythic concept, right? It doesn't evoke that. Now, I could add that you know, there are some traditional things about that creature that do evoke that. So, for example, the genesis of the creature being the product of a curse that comes from the from the moon shining on you that that evokes somewhat like werewolf imagery and the utility of curses uh brings back a lot of the the traditional understandings of witchcraft and you know dark magic. And you know, these are things that do have a traditional resonance, but the creature itself is a new is sort of like a new thing. It has it it has a you know it's something that I created that does have value, that it's cool and it can be integrated. But if all my story just had creatures that were of my own elaboration, if all of my stories were solely came solely as the product of my own mind, and they they purposefully tried to avoid a conversation with the creative unconscious that has been developing for generation uh beh past generation, then it ceases to be mythic. In a sense, it ceases to be magical, it ceases to be fantasy. And that's not necessarily a bad thing, right? What Brandon Sanderson is doing is not a bad thing. I would just contend that in my opinion, it's not fantasy. It's you know, it's something it's something else. It's like um, I don't know, some form of well, I'm not I'm not it I'm not gonna be be speculating on on what it should be, but you know, if you corner me and you ask me, oh wonder, can you come up with like what's like a good argument for for the things you're saying? And you know what, I'll I'll just say that, you know, a lot of this comes down to just the vibes in the air, the you know, the feel, the atmosphere that's being created around this, right? You know, a lot of us having I think a lot of you will have an intuitive understanding of of the kind of thing I'm talking about without me needing to make some some syllogism or logical argument, because a lot of this really is just that. In fact, the very pretense of having to make some syllogism or logical argument about something like this, it's sort of like tricking me to to go into like a a modern frame of looking at things, a more scientific frame of looking at things, which again I feel is antithetical to fantasy, right? I don't want something that's the unique product of a person. You know, I can enjoy a little bit of that. But my my main motivator to read fantasy fiction is to is to come in contact with the ancient. To to come in contact with the with the past in a powerful way that feels fresh, even if it's not new. That's the key. It feels fresh even if it's not new. Something that's not new can still feel fresh. Because in our human experience, there are still themes and concepts that are eternal to us and that will continue to bother us for the rest of time. And you can switch up the coat of paint, you can switch up the aesthetics, you can give your elves different names, but the same drama, the same problems befall them. You know, the struggle, the paradox of immortality. That's something that is constantly touched upon with elves in fiction. And I think that it's something, it's one of those things that it's always worth thinking about. Because that is something that we also struggle with, right? Our desire for for life. They allow us to reflect on the idea of beautiful things coming to an end, of being impermanent, because often in their mythologies, they are they're store their stories take place during times of fading, during times when they're walking away, which is what's you know what's happening in classic fantasy, and in my novel, it's even the in Echoes of Heroes, that's a process that's going to be even more advanced because it will take place in the fourth age, where most of the elves have already gone away and the magic is fading from the world. And these are things that if you've read classic fantasy, you have an intuitive understanding of what I'm talking about. However, if I had not used elves for that concept, if I if I had just tried to come up with like some other entity that had like different habits, uh different ways of life, it looked different, and you know, slightly different cultural undertones, in theory, yes, I I could try to get at the same idea, but I just don't think it would have the same pathos because if if I if I make um falafians, if I make falafians, these are not creatures that have been with us for centuries or thousands of years. This is just a creature I made up on the spot. And again, it can be cool. It can have a cool, like, you know, it can have a cool approach, a cool, it can be cool to play around with, but it's cool to play around with in the same way that you know you play with a video game, right? You you're playing around with it with the little with the video game because you know it's I feel that it's tantalizing you on a on a baser level because it's like it's something that's that's different, something that's you know it's cool, unique, but it's it's just novelty at the end of the at the end of the day. In fact, I found out that a lot of times authors who come up with the best authors who come up with new things, oftentimes if you really if you really squint, um they're basically just reskinned elves. Think about uh or reskin traditional fantasy races, but with enough difference to be considered something else, and for people not to recognize that they're basically reskinned, but think of Elric of Meldibanae. Meldianaeans are inhabitants of a single island, and uh, you know, on the surface they they might not look too much like elves because they they worship chaos gods, and you know, they um they're kind of assholes, they're very sadistic, they're not creatures of good. But when you really think about it, Mel Debanaeans are often grappling with questions of mortality, they are a fading race, they are they are decaying, um, and they are you know they're very melancholy in their moods, and they often are more more far-sighted than humans, they consider humans to be a young race, you know, Melabenaeans are super cool, but if you squint hard enough, they're really just elves, and that's okay, that's awesome, you know, Mel Libanaeans resonate with me because I can draw those similarities to those traditional creatures, and Mel Limenaeans are are are aesthetically not departed enough from those creatures to prevent me from experiencing that pathos, that that fundamental connection. But falafians, uh, you know, it I would have a much harder time at portraying that with uh not even much harder time because uh, you know, that that would imply that someone is not a skilled writer if they're not capable of doing that, but rather it would be nearly impossible. You'd be trying to engineer centuries and millennia of myth for the sake of one story, whereas, you know, it just feels like you're leaving the conversation that's been going on for so long for for no good reason, right? So, you know, sorry for the ramble um and thank Brandon Sanderson for you're bringing up the subject. It was very interesting. Um, I hope he didn't come off as too angry. Brandon Sanderson was very reasonable in his uh in his presentation of his ideas, even though again I I don't I don't agree with them. And you know, if you don't agree with me, I I hope that you you at least you can at least appreciate you know this this angle that I'm taking on this because I just I don't feel that there's enough people talking about it from this angle. But, you know, right or wander, keep wandering.