💰 Why Chasing $100K Passive Income Isn’t Enough | Christian Gilmour

In this episode of Moves to Momentum, Jason sits down again with Christian Gilmour to unpack what it really takes to build a serious property portfolio 🏡🚀

This is not just a chat about buying more property.

It is a real conversation about fear, strategy, market uncertainty, passive income, compounding, family, lifestyle and the decisions that shape your future.

We cover:

•  Why uncertainty is normal in every market 📉📈 
•  Why affordable property can reduce risk and create more options 🏡 
•  How Christian thinks about residential, commercial, cash buffers and shares 💰 
•  Why your first property is usually the hardest 😬 
•  How couples can get on the same page before investing 👩‍❤️‍👨 
•  The difference between making money and keeping it 🧠 
•  Why your goal needs to be deeper than “I want $100k passive income” 🎯 
•  How property can help you build freedom, choice and control 🔑 

If you are a family, professional or business owner sitting on equity, savings or strong income but you are unsure what the next move should be, this episode will help you think clearer.

Because property investing is not about buying random assets.

It is about building the portfolio that buys your future 🚀

Book a discovery call with Buyers Edge Property:
 https://calendars.buyersedgeproperty.com.au/discovery

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Where do you put your money? It's quite easy to get better returns in property versus shares. So I keep putting my money in property.

SPEAKER_01 0:05

We didn't think we'd be here. How long do we enjoy it for before we lock back in and go to the next level?

SPEAKER_00 0:11

With that structured portfolio, I can scale that to 100 mil plus while keeping my return on equity much higher than what I would get if I just stuck it in the stock market.

SPEAKER_01 0:20

I think people are who they are, and if they've got more money or less money, the money is an amplifier.

SPEAKER_00 0:25

Well, data backs that up as well. You're already naturally a happy person, and you get more money, you end up happier.

SPEAKER_01 0:30

Christian Gilmour, welcome back to the Moose to Momentum podcast. Thanks so much for coming in all the way from Melbourne today.

SPEAKER_00 0:37

Happy to be here.

SPEAKER_01 0:38

Happy to be here. Well, we wanted to do another episode, but your episode is one of the most messaged, like I get the most text message phone calls about your episode. Complaints? Or I can't understand that guy. He's talking too much.

SPEAKER_00 0:52

He's really boring.

SPEAKER_01 0:53

Yeah. No, everyone's in everyone's impressed, and everyone wants to talk about how did this guy build a passive income in his portfolio at that age? Everyone, like a couple of my clients are like, how do we leave you and go work with him? Because this guy obviously has got the strategy. I'm like, I promise I've got the strategy too. He's just done it. Um, but you've done it at a young age, and so many people want to learn more about that. And I think the way that you're very different to me. Not in a bad way, but you're very um analytical, and I'm very um sensory. I want to touch, want to talk, want to feel, all that type of stuff. So I think it's a nice um contrast in the episode. And every time we talk, we talk maybe once a week, and we talk for like an hour, 45 minutes, every single time we chat, we want to ask each other a question, turns into a big hoo-ho. I'm gonna kick it off. Number one question everyone's asking about at the moment is like, what's going on in your mind as a real data-driven type investor with all this uncertainty going on in the market?

SPEAKER_00 1:57

Yeah, whenever it comes to short-term trends, uncertainty, whatever's going on with interest rates, war, whatever's going on. Yeah, I think I like to bring it back to the really big picture and bring it back to sort of base fundamentals, which is is this actually abnormal? And the reality is, is there is always tax changes going on, political changes, um, macroeconomic factors, you know, international politics issues. Like it's not people treat it like it's a bug in the system, but it's actually just a feature.

SPEAKER_01 2:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:32

So that's a good saying. If you look back over a really, really long period of time, like I was on the way, when I was flying up, I was listening to a podcast and I heard about this quote of Jamie Diamond, who is the CEO of JP Morgan, which is like the biggest bank in the world. I think someone was asking him about financial crisis, like crises and things like that, and how would he define it? And he just said, it's just something that happens every five to seven years. And just so yeah, so people keep then that's often what actually creates some of these cycles or recessions and things like that, is that it is cyclical. Yeah. And I'm not saying that's necessarily what we're in right now, but um, it's just something that's just a reality of living in the world. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:16

Is that Western society?

SPEAKER_00 3:18

Yeah, 100%. So I think if people have a degree of uncertainty or a bit of concern, then it's just about planning for it. Like we talked about it a lot in our last podcast around sort of having cash buffers in place and that kind of stuff. It's just about like at the moment, I personally think shares are pretty overvalued in my limited knowledge and experience. So I'm not necessarily buying shares right now. Yeah. But you have in the past. I have in the past. Yeah. And do I, my personal financial situation isn't as robust as it might have been a few years ago because I've got a few different things moving. So I'm holding a bit more cash than usual.

SPEAKER_01 3:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:59

Like it's just about making these little adjustments, but it doesn't mean that you invest or don't invest. It's about just because it's as long as you're buying the right stuff and in the right way, then investing can really make sense at any point in the market. It's just about tweaking the way you do it.

SPEAKER_01 4:15

We I I talk about it often. I think me and you talk about it often. And to me, that's like having a long-term strategy. You're implementing a strategy. And when you zoom out of a building someone's property portfolio or your own portfolio over the last 10, 15 years, you're like, oh yeah, that happened that's happened a few times since I've been building my portfolio. And so it's just a thing that happens. And I think some people like get in their mind, if I'm investing, I'm investing and I want to make heaps of money. And it's like, there's markets where you'll make a lot of money, there's markets where you'll make a decent amount of money, but like overall, if you zoom out and have a look at like you're better off than you were at the start than you are five years, six years, ten years later. But that's what I'm hearing from you.

SPEAKER_00 4:59

Yeah. Yeah. In essence, like even if there's changes and stuff going on, the question is where do you put your money? Do you put it in shares? Or could you get better returns somewhere else? In my opinion, you could it's quite easy to get better returns in property versus shares. So I keep putting my money in property.

SPEAKER_01 5:18

What about the different markets in property? In Sydney at the moment, I feel like it's an absolute bloodbath for anything over three mil, like just not selling at all, right? And I think that's going to continue for a little while longer while there is still this uncertainty. But then I see these other markets like Western Sydney, Western Sydney units, man, like they're going pretty quick, right? They're moving quick, which to me is an affordable asset, affordable housing option for someone who's living in Melbourne, uh Sydney Metro. Stuff under 600,000, moving pretty fast. Stuff around here in the Cornella, anything under 800, it's moving pretty quick. There's not much, but like if it's around, it's moving. Is that how do you um digest that? Like, is that a consideration of yours when you're looking at it, like what markets are doing what, or are you just kind of like, this is what's happening in the global economy right now? This is how I'm going to deploy my money.

SPEAKER_00 6:18

I yeah, I do take that sort of thing into account, but something that's initially informed my strategy of generally preferring or having a bias towards more affordable markets, ultimately, there's many reasons for it, but one that at least relates to what you were just saying is if there is some sort of financial crisis or recession or whatever it is, people can always go down in price, they can't necessarily go up.

SPEAKER_01 6:40

Totally.

SPEAKER_00 6:41

So it's just a risk minute uh mitigation tactic, yeah, in essence. And then the other benefit is you can diversify more. So if you've got more lower price properties, then you can diversify across multiple markets, which is another way of reducing risk. So there is unique opportunities that can pop up in markets. Like units and apartments are really interesting right now because I still have a really strong bias towards houses on land, but there is a growing discrepancy between the historical value of houses versus versus units and apartments, and that's been growing to the point where it's apartments and units are starting to look a lot more interesting from a long-term trend perspective. So there's a lot of smart money also going into those for that.

SPEAKER_01 7:28

There's some catching up to be done.

SPEAKER_00 7:30

Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:31

Very interesting, ma'am.

SPEAKER_00 7:32

Actually, on that, on the one thing I'm curious, given because I know I know your goal ultimately is to get a place around here, Cronulla, at some point. How does that come into mind for you a lot? This sort of when to potentially because you're always keeping an eye on the market, you're really familiar with this market. Do you keep an eye on that sort of stuff a lot? And do you think about it a lot, especially given the goal that you've got?

SPEAKER_01 7:57

Um I I do I think about it a lot? No. Do I think about it occasionally, which would be maybe two or three times a year? Yes. Like, could we sell everything out now and buy our dream home in the Shire and happy days? Yes. But I think if I zoom out and be like, I'm not done yet, I'm not done building the business yet. I I don't think I've fully um realized the potential in the capacity the buyer's edge has as a how many clients we can service, what type of revenue we can do, all that type of stuff. And then what does that look like for me personally to then invest? Am I making a decision based off the knowledge that I have today? Am I trying to fix a problem in five years' time? I've got to wait for five years' time to fix that problem. If I'm trying to fix it today, like I'm I don't have the resources and understanding of the five years yet to make that call. So it's like I kind of just park it. I get excited when I s when I hear what I told you before, I'm like, oh, there could be some bargains, but I'm not ready yet. And I actually had this funny thing, massive tangent, absolute massive tangent. I went to the UK with a friend in what have been 2014, 2015, right? And we were talking about closing loops. We went out for dinner, we went to some soccer game, anyway. Afterwards, we're just getting some dinner, about to go back to the hotel room, and we're talking about closing loops. And he was talking about closing loops with like ex-girlfriends, right? Like just girls that you may be ghosted or you know that didn't quite end well or whatever. Like, there's just a bit of energy flowing there. He's like, My friend was telling me about this thing, closing loops. You close the loop, and you kind of just like there's because you never said anything, or there was no dialogue of like closure in that relationship, there's still energy flowing there because he's talking more like from a like a spiritual energy type of level. Still energy flowing there, and you're walking around, just leaking energy. Um my mate said his mate, text these people, text, message, hey, just want to let you know um what I did or did or didn't say or how I did or didn't act. He's not good. You res you deserve more than that. I respect you, apologies, I wish you all the best, no need to respond. I think good idea. We're here, we got time, let's do them. Maybe three or four people come to mind, boys, send the text. I think about it, you know, send the text.

SPEAKER_00 10:44

It'll be awkward if it was like a hundred.

SPEAKER_01 10:47

Um I wasn't like that, but um, I I messaged a few people, bang, bang, bang. Who crossed my path the the week would have been days from when I come back from the UK? Jamie Lee Stewart at the time.

SPEAKER_00 11:04

Big J L.

SPEAKER_01 11:05

What the hell? Is that a thing? Anyway, I'm saying all that to say like I wasn't ready, right? Yeah, or before the beforehand, I wasn't ready, bang, close some loop, boom, boom, boom, I'm ready. Now, the biggest opportunity in my life, come along, boom, I'm ready to move on it. Jamie Lee. Um, that is kind of how I think about this. I'm not ready. I need to get ready. I need to do things, close loops, or get things structured, the the correct structures, the correct assets, the direct kind of cash flow that I want to get to where I want to get to. That's how I think about it.

SPEAKER_00 11:37

And you think I'm the analytical one? You got a little bit of political flair to you.

SPEAKER_01 11:43

When it's just me alone and no one's watching.

SPEAKER_00 11:45

You pull it out. I pull it a spreadsheet. You hide it. And you call me. I did it. I pulled it out. So, okay, so I then there's something I was wanting to ask you because when because we used to work together and I I saw how good you were at this and how talented you were. And I remember us talking a lot, me being like, dude, you gotta go out like and do your own thing. You'll be able to help lots of people, you'll do a fantastic job. And that's exactly what has happened. But I'm just curious, because it seems like you spend a lot of time preparing for that moment.

SPEAKER_01 12:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:23

What did you what were you, how were you preparing to then go off on your own, start, start this thing? Because it's it's taken off massively. You've done a fantastic job. Like you're helping so many people, you've got a fantastic team under you. How did you actually prepare for that?

SPEAKER_01 12:38

Uh, that's a lot, that's a there's a lot of layers to that. I think skill set is probably the first thing you need to prepare for, right? In in this environment as being a buyer's agent, you need to fully understand. Like, I spoke about this similar thing with Tony Zelenich, Ballarat agent who was on the podcast. And it's like understanding that this deal stacks is something. Okay, I understand how what makes a deal a deal. Understanding how a market moves and when to do that deal and when not to do that deal, that's also a skill. Like a market's gonna move like this. Early stage of the market, these are the type of deals you want to do. In the like, let's say the first six months, or now it's kind of like month seven to month 18 in the growth cycle, these are the type of deals you want to do then. Then at the tail end of the buying window of that cycle, there's certain deals you want to do. What are the precursors or what are the um flags or signals that we're moving to the next stage of it? Talking to agents.

SPEAKER_00 13:47

Way harder than the skill of knowing whether it's a deal.

SPEAKER_01 13:50

Correct. And so it's like understanding that, how markets move, that's a skill. Okay, do I understand how markets moved? I've been in multiple markets, I've seen them all move, and I understand, and I'm trying to document this is the way that they move, and these are the precursors and things that agents are saying. And then when it's all in vet or majority investors buying, there's investors and earner rocks, uh comparative owner rocks are now overpaying for things because they're pissed off that all the investors are getting everything. These are all signs that happen in every market, right? Um, another character, it's funny, like Jabin Manning's on the podcast and Tony Zelenich in the podcast. Those guys are like chalk, I was gonna say chalk and cheese. They're the same character in two different markets. He's in town, he's in Ballarat, but they're the same person operating with the same energy, the same thing. So you're like, you start to realize the same characters, the same trends, the same everything happens at the moment. That's a skill. Does it stack? Then understanding building people's property portfolios. And I had to build my own, and I was involved in building others. And it's like, okay, that is a piece of the puzzle to understand. I helped my brother build his property portfolio. I bought property for my parents. Like that was all executing, but like this is why you would, this is why you wouldn't do that. You have time, it plays out, you're like, okay, yes, for me personally, I bought a place in Rockhampton shit. Absolute dog box.

SPEAKER_00 15:18

They're usually they're often the best ones.

SPEAKER_01 15:20

They're the best ones, right? I bought it for 200 grand. And what I sold it 15 months later for 330, and I did absolutely nothing to it. And it was a dog box when I bought it, and it was a dog box when I sold it. But um I could have renovated it, put a grinding flat out the back, and done a bit more to it to get some passive income, get this, whatever. But like I realized that that wasn't the style of investor that I was. I don't want the renovators. I've done two renovated deals in my portfolio. I've got two renovated deals in my portfolio. I don't love them. They work and you're able to buy them heavily unders, you put the cash into it, bang, bang, bang. But I've also gotten similar, probably slightly less of a return with just good assets in good markets at market value, let it run. But I'm buying at the right time. So then, like, I'm starting to understand okay, that's when you would do this style of deal in someone's portfolio, renovator, or this when you'll do that type of deal in someone's portfolio. All of that things, how do I prepare? This the multiple skill sets needed. You're stacking. That's about each other. That's the practical delivery to a client. I think there's another skill set of just talking to the clients. There's so many clients that I talk to that are absolutely petrified. They might not say it at the start, but they might say it on conversation number two, number three. And some buyers' agents, or some I shouldn't say buyers' agents, some people don't know how to uh deal with that. I like to deal with that.

SPEAKER_00 16:58

That's the issue I had with my first deal. Because I think I mentioned the last podcast that I actually went to use a buyer's agent on my first property. And then I didn't end up actually following. I let them keep the deposit and everything like that, just because the guy just crunched it. Basically just treated like me like a number, just only focused on the numbers of the deal, which these days I appreciate a lot more. But what he didn't appreciate was I was a 23-year-old dude that had spent years and years and years saving up, you know, 50, 60, 70 grand to buy my first property. And I had all this research under me, but I'd never done it before. So there was all of this emotion that I didn't know was necessarily there. I thought that I was as hard as core investor. I was like, I know what I'm doing.

SPEAKER_01 17:40

I've read all these books. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:42

But the emotions always hit you. It does. And that's, I just don't think he was very good at navigating that. And I just had no, I lost all trust in the process as a result. So you need to address both. You need we had Morgan Holmes on the podcast, man.

SPEAKER_01 17:55

Morgan Holmes, like feminine energy, talking about, you know, maybe selling one of her properties to help us, or one of her family members, medical bills, all this type of stuff. Like, she is an empath. She wants to help, she wants to like be there for people. And she's a property investor. She is making decisions based off logic and the numbers, but the reasons why she's doing them is all emotional. I want to help more people in my life with actual pure hard cash that I've generated from my portfolio or give them opportunities. That is a fully emotional decision. And how do you understand that, navigate that? I had a client like a conversation with a client. Hey, we've got six investment properties. We're thinking about selling our own occupy house and going hard. What do you think we should do? What do you want to do? You if you want to go hard, sell the owner rock. Let's load up. And I can go hard with you. But what do you want to do? I don't know. We kind of like flip-flop. I'm like, yes. You need to figure out what you want. And once you know what you want, then you execute.

SPEAKER_00 19:00

Yeah, you have to commit. You got to commit to if you don't commit, I mean, I think that was to be honest, that's probably the only reason why I was able to do what I did was because I had a specific goal in mind. I decided on one strategy and I did not deviate from that at any point ever, unless I had overwhelming evidence that I should make a little bit of a pivot. Love it. So and so and what it meant was because what so many people do is they'll end up just kind of going down little paths and they'll get like 10 meters down the path and then they'll jump onto another path. Whereas what what you were essentially talking about before the stacking all of these skills, that only happens when you go a kilometer down the path.

SPEAKER_01 19:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:37

Where along the way you're picking up from experience because you you've done, I mean, we've both done a huge volume of of just transactions. Yeah. And the stuff that you learn from every single transaction, you've done what, over 500 or more. Oh man, I've been a thousand.

SPEAKER_01 19:50

As a buyer's agent, I've been involved in hundreds and hundreds of transactions.

SPEAKER_00 19:54

So there's a level of of skill and experience, even just man. Like, I watch you manage scenarios with agents and around building a pest and like just how you manage the entire scenario. It's like, it's like watching a professional ballet dancer or someone like that do something.

SPEAKER_01 20:11

It's so odd sometimes. Like one of one of the guys on the team said to me the other day, I've just been sent this property, it's in this area, this is the price, it's a banger. I was like, it's either a duplex, it's either a crossroad from a school or it's got a high voltage power line at the back. No, no, it's not a duplex. Pull it up, pulls it up, give me an aerial view, duplex, cross road from the school, and high voltage power box out the front. I was like, I don't know how I know that. I don't know how I thought that was a thing, but I'd seen and I've had that conversation enough times with the agent to know it's Fulgazi, and this is the things that would make it Fulgazi. But we're going back, I'm going back to your original question because I'm I'm I'm taking tangents. But how did I prepare? Skill sets is one.

unknown 20:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:59

And then Punt in the Rockhampton place was another. How did all of that come about? JL and I went to Tony Robbins back in 2024, end of 2024. And I think we're so busy in our lives all the time. And I went to Tony Robbins in 2023 and it was at UPW in Sydney, and it was just I stayed at home because it was like he was in Sydney, but it's a four-day conference. So you go, you go back home, you go, you go back. So it's like it still felt like I still woke up early, did some work, went to the event. During the event, I was doing some calls, but then come home, whatever. When we went to Florida for a week, stayed in the hotel, fully immerse ourselves in this environment of I don't think you need to go to Tony Robbins, but we took time out of our busy lives to be like, what do we want? When we answered that, it was like it's so clear. Like your decisions, like I want to lose some weight. I'm I'm I would I snap my Achilles in December. I'm running close to a hunch. I want to be closer to 90. I know the steps I've got to take. Calorie deficit, exercise, lift some weights. That's pretty much it.

SPEAKER_00 22:10

Um and some GLP ones.

SPEAKER_01 22:12

And some GLPs. I thought about it, but I thought, no, I need I've I've gotten here. I need to get my way back down. Right. But um it's it's once you know what you want and you've defined it, it's so it's the path becomes so this is what I gotta do. So at Tony Robbins, what what do we want? Okay, you define it and it's like I'm not on that path, I need to make a move. Yeah, and I'd it was weird that I was like I'd kind of been preparing for I've been adding the skill sets, I've been adding all these things, and then it was just like a uh when, not if. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:52

Yeah. Uh and to sort of draw that back to sort of the investment space, I think that was also another reason why I was only I was able to do what because yeah, that's the only reason why I was able to do what I was wanting to do is because I literally had a very, very specific outcome within a very specific time frame I was aiming for. You mean that that I was able to reverse engineer um at least like a basically a a bear case, a likely case, and then a bull case as to what time frame I can get there within. And I just, as I went further along, further down the path, essentially towards that goal, I you keep getting better and better and better as well. That was one thing I probably didn't appreciate enough when I first started, because I feel like as human beings, we have this idea that the way I can't remember that there's an actual name for this type of bias, but it's like the current state that you're currently in, you think you're gonna be that way for the rest of your life and that things are not gonna get better or that you risk making some catastrophic mistake and then you get set back 10, 20 years. Yeah. So I think there's not an appreciation that uh when you do something for the first time, whether it's buying a first property or some sort of investing or whatever, I think your decisions just need to be you need to work out what you want. And even if you're not really specific, try and get as specific as you can with an understanding that's gonna change over time. Yeah, and then just make decisions that are directionally correct. And just try and make the best decisions you you can in the right direction.

SPEAKER_01 24:20

Does this get me closer towards that goal? Yeah, yes. Is it exactly the path? Maybe. Like, you know, you you you gotta figure that out. But this is very similar to the conversation I had with Morg's because we were saying the same thing. When she started, the investor she that she was to the investor that she is now, the person that she's had to become is like not completely different, but she's had to become a better version of herself. And it's to me, those are all skills, and major majority of the skill is decision-making skills. Um, you just clear on decision making and self-management.

SPEAKER_00 24:55

I think that's another thing with the investing stuff, is just managing your own psychology as well. Because it's always so tempting to just keep, especially once you start doing well. You've I'm sure you've probably felt this. As soon as you start, you see the net worth numbers tick up or you pull some big equity chunks out or something like that, your psychology immediately wants to get into oh, I could buy this, I could do that. Or you start kind of you you also can it can actually contribute a little bit to your ego as well, where you start thinking that you're really good at this and it's really easy to get complacent. Yes. Whereas that's actually the moments where you've got to stay really, really sharp. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:34

It's interesting thought, A. But like just being committed. I've spoken to two points, and then I'm gonna move on to somebody else. Most common thing I say to people when I sign up, always, I'm like, this is how we work with a client. What's your goal? Right? This is a strategy for you to achieve that goal. Step three. All right, these are the properties we need to acquire at each stage of the strategy to achieve it, and we're gonna help you manage your portfolio along the way and help you build it. Great. So what's your goal? Oh, I don't know. Um like most people either want a nice owner occupy house or passive income. I'll take the passive income. It's like they're ordering in Maccas. I'll take the passive income. How much by when? 100k by five years? Like it's just uh it needs to be so much deeper than that because I want to lose weight, bro, so I am not a sloppy mess for these those two girls out there that I want to spend time with. When they want to play, and it's Sunday afternoon, I've got energy that I'm like, yes, girls, let's go ride the bikes. Oh girls, I'm tired, you know. I'm so sloppy. I just want to sleep here on the couch. Like, I don't want to be like that. And so that drives me to do something. I know the outcome that I want. I got to do these things to get there. Clear as. I'll just take the 100K in five years. It's nice. And I understand that that's a stage or that's a piece, but once you dull that in, it's so that's when you really start to make make some moves. But you you were talking before about getting started. To you, you talk to heaps of clients that are just getting started. What do you think is the biggest barrier to overcome the first part of property investing or just to start investing in general?

SPEAKER_00 27:14

I think I think it's about actually trying to make an informed decision. To be honest, I think that's the biggest barrier is that people and some people would actually just jump into it not being fully informed, to be honest. Fortunately, properties are really, really um forgiving, forgiving asset class. So there's a lot of people that just do it because they see other people doing it and because it's a forgiving asset class, they actually generally do quite well over time. Um but the that's why I like to talk in first principles a lot. So I like to say, well, let's just go back down to basics. What why, number one, why are you trying to hit that goal? And then and the time frame that you're looking at. And then, okay, how does this actually help you towards that goal versus other options? Because you've got a million options out there. True. And crypto? Yeah. You got shares? Crypto, uh, silver and gold, I've been hearing a lot about recently in particular.

SPEAKER_01 28:08

Um if you want to be ultra-conservative, index funds. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:11

Stuff like that. And it's about comparing all of those and then seeing where this potential option ranks in all of that. And the reason why I've stuck with this strategy for years, despite being obsessed with this stuff, is just because I literally have not been able to find a better strategy for risk in terms of achieving a risk-adjusted return, other than maybe trying to start your own business.

SPEAKER_01 28:31

Which I struck me as a guy as well who's who's investigated a lot.

SPEAKER_00 28:35

Yes. Yeah, a little bit. I mean, I've been obsessed with this for years. And I pretty much thought of almost nothing else for six, seven years there as I was building the portfolio.

SPEAKER_01 28:46

And when I met you, bro, I remember you were dialed in. Man, I've got to do this, I've got to do that, and I've got to make if I get this income, then I'm gonna do that, and I'm gonna take this money out here. And you were so like precise with each step and each move. And like I was like, man, I'm just buying bangers and just throwing them in.

SPEAKER_00 29:02

Yeah. It's because I knew the goal that I had was just nearly, it was literally like I honestly thought it was probably impossible. Yeah. So I knew that even if I did everything pretty much perfectly, there was still a likely chance that I wouldn't be able to hit it. So I what a pessimist.

SPEAKER_01 29:20

I'm conservative by nature.

SPEAKER_00 29:22

So it's conservative. So um, because I guess the other thing you got to balance as well is the expectations you set with others. Like setting those expectations with Beck was a real challenge. And that to be honest, that was probably the hardest barrier to get over at the beginning was just both of us getting on the same page. Because you have to sell the person that you care about most in the world on this idea of significantly reducing your lifestyle, even though you can literally afford it. Yeah. And then being like, trust me, we'll stick all of our money into these large investments in these big chunks. Let's not dip our toe in, let's go like all in. And by the way, it's gonna we're gonna be losing money.

SPEAKER_01 30:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:04

Just overlook that bit. And then no, but down the line in a vague period in time, you'll it'll pay off. And she's like, Oh, this sounds great. Um, so it took it took us a couple of years of just working through that. So that's where How did you work through that?

SPEAKER_01 30:20

Can we go back to that?

SPEAKER_00 30:21

Because I sighed the reason why I sighed is like I don't think the way I worked through it was a good way to go about it. Because I was so like when you saw I was more chill when you when you and I met. I'm a lot more chill now, but like back then, I was pretty much like when we get married, move out, whatever. Box on the side of the road. I mean, there's a certain percentage of the population that lives that way. That should be 50 for us. Yeah, the rest of the money we just you know work 60 hours a week and put the rest into property, right? That's that's cool. Whereas Beck was was a lot more normal than I was. She wasn't even she wasn't some spender or anything like that. She was just normal. And then we both sort of brought each other closer together. But because I was so extreme, we still ended up in a pretty extreme case, even though we compromised. You dragged her down to your so we ended up with like a you know, a two-bedroom apartment that we're renting that was like a cave, you know.

SPEAKER_01 31:22

So an actual art.

SPEAKER_00 31:24

So glad we did because living there in COVID and we're both working from home as well. So it would have been horrible if we're in like this one-bedroom piece of crap like apartment. But but how did you do it?

SPEAKER_01 31:35

Because that that's a lot, that's a big thing for a lot of people. Majority of my clients, man, are families and they're just they're either just getting started or they've got their owner occupy a house where they've got a chunk of equity. And it's like, we've worked so hard to get this thing and this thing to a decent debt level. If you're telling me we got to get in more debt, and we've just been fighting for the last seven years to be in less debt, like you're just shaking these people's worldview up. So I want you to talk to us, maybe not how you did it, but maybe how you would would do it again. Again, yeah, knowing what you know now.

SPEAKER_00 32:11

One thing I probably did all right with was I genuinely did try and and Beck wanted to come along for the ride. She wasn't the sort of person that was just like, oh, I trust you, you know what you're doing. There was a small degree of that, because there was there was a certain point where her and I could talk through the logic around it, but I also had limited knowledge at that point. I I didn't know as much as I know now, and I couldn't articulate as well as as I'm able to articulate now, articulate it now. It's funny that I stumbled on that. So um I we both got on the same page as much as humanly possible. I think the other thing that helped was she could see that it wasn't just me trying to make us more money in the future, that it actually I almost felt a little bit of my my purpose and my drive. And if I'm being honest, probably a little bit of my identity wrapped up in it as well, which is probably not necessarily the most healthy thing.

SPEAKER_01 33:05

But you are not normal, so that's okay. It's okay.

SPEAKER_00 33:09

Yeah, you can say that again. Um so she she also was to an extent like, I'm supportive of you, and I can see that there's more to this than just trying to make money in the future. There is because along the whole way, part of the reason why I was so intense about learning all this stuff is I just had this feeling longer term that it wasn't just for me, that I was going to use a lot of these skills and knowledge to then help other people as well. Because I remember learning about there was one time I was listening to a bunch of podcasts about buying and self-managed super fund. And I was like, I'm like 25. Me and my wife have like 30 grand of super combined. I'm like, why am I learning about this? I'm like, yeah, but if someone comes along that can buy an SMSF, I need to not be able to talk about it in an intelligent way where they can help help them make a better decision.

SPEAKER_01 33:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:59

So I know I'm sort of ranting a little bit, but so to come back to it, I would encourage people to try and get as educated as they possibly can. Yep. And if they are getting a professional to help them, particularly in the early phases, which is what I'd recommend, um talk to the person together because what's talked about in that room, this is what I find a lot. I'll talk to one person, either husband or wife, or boyfriend or girlfriend, or whatever in a couple, and they'll one of them will get really amped up and then they'll try and talk to their partner or or or spouse about it. And there's a lot of communication that's just not really getting through. Yeah. Uh, so having them in the room is really helpful. I wish I probably did that a little bit more with Beck, that anytime I was meeting with an accountant or a mortgage broker or whatever to include her into it, but we both had really crazy busy careers. So we had limited time to be able to do that. Um, yeah, education, going along the ride together. And the other thing that I think we did do really well, Beck was fantastic with this, was she always we always had the attitude of we're making this decision together. So even when she was like, look, I don't fully understand it to the degree you are, but I trust you. And that doesn't mean I'm I'm delegating responsibility. She was delegating responsibility to me. She was going, I'm actively making the decision that is I'm gonna trust in you. But if anything goes wrong, it is both of us that made the decision.

SPEAKER_01 35:27

I love it.

SPEAKER_00 35:28

And that was really helpful for me. It took some of the pressure off because there's already an enormous amount of pressure.

SPEAKER_01 35:32

Man, I honestly you're you're missing a big piece of the puzzle here, which I am picking up on. And I know about you, Ambe. You guys are have got a very strong relationship and great communication, very vulnerable with each other of like what's going on, what you need, what like where you're at. And I think that is like the the real cornerstone of it, right? That I I sometimes you don't see that all the time in marriages, let alone just relationships, you know, that uh a spouse would back the other spouse of like what their purpose and identity is. People a lot of people times people just going through the motions, man. Just clocking in, clocking out, going through the motions. They get told to get married, have kids, buy a house, and they're just going through the plan. And they're just asking the matrix, what's next? Oh, yeah, all right, that's what we'll do. Go on a holiday, yeah, all right. And then, but what are they communicating? Nothing at all.

SPEAKER_00 36:33

Like their purpose, some people don't even know what the that is, and then they're just driven by their psychology, which is always short-term, generally speaking, short-term focused and social media, yeah, and it's you just end up in the hedonic treadmill for the grain, really, yeah. So, how did you and JL do it? Because you were in a different position to me in back because you already had Gigi, we were at our GG, and then I think Zoe was not not far away.

SPEAKER_01 37:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:01

And when you started really going hard on this stuff, and so how did you balance I was a bit of a weirdo too, Barry?

SPEAKER_01 37:08

Like, I remember going to property investment seminars when I was like 16, 17. What for? I had no money, you know? And the money I did have, like, was a couple hundred bucks, maybe a couple grand, you know? And I was saving that for a car. So, but I just I I saw my parents bust their ass, man. My my mum was an accountant, worked big hours, then you know, my dad started a mechanical business. He owned the Caltech service station at Koji for a lot of our childhood, then sold it, then opened up another mechanical workshop somewhere else. Like he just worked like an absolute dog. And I was just like, I don't want that. Yeah. And I was like, how do I not do that? Because my dad was never around. He'd wake up at four in the morning, get up, go to work, you know, and he's just slaving over cars. Then he'd be home at seven, eight o'clock. You know, we're probably going to bed as kids at that time. We never seen him. See him on the weekend and he's just sinking VBs because he just worked like a dog all week. So he's just trying to like have a minute to himself to do something. Yeah, the central nervous system is probably just cooked. Right? And I was like, I don't want to do that. When I was as I was like coming of age, yeah, and I was like, this investing stuff seems pretty decent. Like maybe I should do that, you know. And it took me ages to figure it out. You know, I had a bit of goalt shares, had a bit of a go go at shares again, try to learn, try to learn about property, and then like kind of fell into it, you know, just through have having a crack. I started a couple of businesses along the way. Um but how did we do it? I knew I didn't want to have that. And Jamie Lee, I was open with her too. You know, I I I I knew I didn't want that, so I looked into investing from a young age. And when J and I got together, um she was an extremely hard worker. Like she was working massive hours from the age of six from the age that she could get a job. Bang, she's working. And she's working, she's working, she's working. Um, but she was never really taught much financial literacy or like planning for the future, you know. Um, I had an interesting childhood. Um and so yeah, but she she always had a very strong work ethic. And it was like, I had that too, because I saw my dad just working like a dog, and I was just like, that's what you do. Um and it was just like, but I don't want to do that. Let's figure out investing. And we both did it scared, and we both did it like, is this the right thing to do? But we knew we didn't want that path, and we knew we had to try and something different. If we stay on this path, we've got two great case studies of where we'll end up. Do we want that? No, okay, well then let's just do what they didn't do. And we thought at the time that was invest and have a business. And so it was like, but we did it scared every single step along the way, like starting the business. I was very scared because like I left a very established place with a great brand that does is an amazing uh operation. I left that. And um that was scary because you had safety, you had security, you had um a lot of great things that come along with being a part of that. To do it on our own, that's a bit scary. To back ourselves again is a bit scary, but we just you just keep doing it, you know.

SPEAKER_00 40:21

And all all of this, you're sort of building a portfolio as you're going along, and then so and then you've got you've got two kids while doing it as well, which is something that sort of is foreign to me because that adds a whole different dynamic.

SPEAKER_01 40:34

I don't don't recommend the kids. I I recommend doing it beforehand if you can.

SPEAKER_00 40:39

Been there, been there, yeah, unfortunately. Yes, that's right. Like what you guys have done. Yeah, I don't think you I had the same idea because I I to be honest, I looked forward and I saw that I'm like, once kids come into the picture, financially things are very, very different. So that's also part of the reason why I was so driven to that's part of basically where the trying to retire by 28 goal originally came from was I was like, 28 is probably about as early as we'd probably look to start to have kids. So let me try and get that set up before then. Um, but then how did you because one thing that I feel like you've you and JL have done really well is you've still got a fantastic portfolio that you've built out with getting insane results, but you I don't think you had the sort of real burnout that I did like when I was building my portfolio. Yeah. You you seem to be out of balance hitting your goals without sort of overextending yourself. Yeah. So is number one, is that a fair character characterization? And number two, how did you go about that? Because I feel like that's for the people that are really driven and then they follow this stuff a lot and they see people with some of these crazy stories and they go, I want to do that. Yeah, there's very few people to actually talk about the really hard side of it.

SPEAKER_01 41:59

It is hard, man. Like I I would work um when I was when I started in the buyer's agent space, I'd honestly just work like an absolute dog, you know? I saw it. And I was I was making money that I didn't think I'd be able to make. And you're just working like a dog, and it's like, if I keep picking this phone up and calling agents, this is what comes out the other side at the end of the month. I'm gonna keep doing that. I'm gonna do it more and more and more because I'd never found a vehicle uh that could give me that type of income. Then it was like I actually know once I've got there, I actually have got the next vehicle right there to put it in to to replicate it, like to multiply it. I was like, this is perfect. And um, did I burn out? I went through multiple stages of like hating it, loving it, hating it, loving it, hating it, loving it all the time because I was just yeah, it put it straight into my marriage. It definitely put like I I I my kids were young, younger, they're babies, you know, like they wake up for an hour, you play with them, bang, you feed them, bang, they go back to bed, you know? So like that's when I was pushing. Um Jamie Lee did a lot of that on her own. And it's like now I'm like, I want to take them on the holidays, I want to come home, I want to have dinner, I want to talk to him, like, and I want to enjoy like I there was guilt while I was doing that, but I was like, what could I have done anyway? I couldn't fed, I couldn't have fed him. JL had to feed him. Like I couldn't have done any of those things. And even now, people, young lads and lasses, maybe mainly young lads say to me, I want to go hard now so I can retire and not have to work when I have kids. I'm like, that's not gonna happen. Like you're still gonna work when you have kids. And if you want to be a dad who doesn't work, you just wanna be on the couch just eating Chinese food, just slopping it down your chest while while your kids doing what, man, at school, you should be doing something, right? But the the level of what you're doing is like how much you want to add to society. That's what I was thinking about. But um I I give that advice to people in their mid-20s are like you when I had Jij, that put like a torch under me to be like, this is the ultimate purpose. I need more time to be with her. But right now she's seven, turning eight soon, and it's like I can go out for lunch with her, hang out with her, we can chat, we can talk talk, you know. Jij, what do you want to do? We want to ride the bikes, want to do this together, want to draw together. At the moment, she loves drawing. Like she's got a little thing and she like it's really tracing. We're tracing. But she loves doing it. And I love doing it.

SPEAKER_00 44:45

It's probably better than you are drawing.

SPEAKER_01 44:46

Right, 100%. Um, but I'm waffling on a little bit just because this is something I'm very passionate about. Um around just like you don't have to I don't want to say you don't have to. I I busted my ass and I do feel like I had capacity, but I was like, I've got a window and I'm not gonna stop working, but I want to be able to be choose the time that I spend with these girls, and that's what I'm passionate about. And I don't know there's another way.

SPEAKER_00 45:15

Yeah, I think what came to mind when you were just describing that is I think something that humans are not great at is also understanding how compounding works. Yeah, it's hard to actually wrap your head around that. So I think what you're talking about in terms of you and I both sort of seem to have the idea that we've got like a little bit of a window here. Yeah. But one thing that was always really clear in my mind was if I just if I just really just get with the way the compounding works, if I just get to a decent place at a young age, then compounding will just take care of the rest. Yep. Like at that point, it's just about making sure that you don't stuff up majorly and you are just set. And there's so many of the guys that you and I hang out with, like even morgues and and and others that we know.

SPEAKER_01 46:08

She's got a $5.2 million property portfolio and she's got like two and a half mil debt. That's wild. But she's only 30. That's crazy. That's unreal. Like if she got 10% return on a put on her portfolio, she's making half a mil every year.

SPEAKER_00 46:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:21

For doing nothing.

SPEAKER_00 46:21

Yep. Compounding. What? As well. Yeah, compounding.

SPEAKER_01 46:25

That's what you're talking about.

SPEAKER_00 46:26

Yeah. So in you know, seven years' time, it switches from 500 half a mil to like a mil a year. Compounding, you know, like it's just and that's just in that's just in seven years' time or whatever. So yeah, it I think people I think it is really smart for people to to consider the fact that you're it's really hard. Like that first hundred grand, I remember, was really, really hard.

SPEAKER_01 46:57

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 46:57

And then the I would I would say once you sort of hit around the sort of roughly sort of half a mil net worth, then it kind of starts to feel like everything else from there is kind of just inevitable. Yeah. It starts to sort of take on a on a it almost becomes its own entity and just starts drive. Like once you got sort of one and a half, two mil in property, something like that, that's where it really starts. Your brain struggles to comprehend the outcomes that can sort of predict that that's it can sort of generate. Um and no, I'm with you, man. Yeah, but getting there is the hardest bit. Correct. And also getting there in in a way where your strategy and your structure of your portfolio isn't set up in a way that you're then stuck and you have no options after that, which is where a lot of people get to.

SPEAKER_01 47:46

I I realized early on, and that's why like I remember me and you just always discuss, you were tweaking your portfolio and I was tweaking my income. You were like, man, this is what I'm doing with my portfolio. Bang, bang, bang. I was like, bro, this is what I'm doing with my my income. Because I was fixated on that. How do I increase that so that I can get that? Well, you like already had a bit of that, and so it was kind of it was moving. Um, but but what do you think about like what do you see for your portfolio? What do you see it looking like the next five to 10 years? Because honestly, you've got the covered portfolio, multi-million dollar property portfolio, 80k year passive. Who doesn't want that?

SPEAKER_00 48:22

Yeah, I the main focus for me at the moment is to be honest, I don't have a really, really clear plan anymore, which probably sounds weird coming from me given how analytical I am and how much I think about the future. But the reason why is sort of what I was the point I was making before about the human brain's not great at um at comprehending compounding, is that my skills in investing, as well as uh the portfolio size now is starting to move at a pace where I think it was Charlie Munger said, um if you if you particularly if you're in business and you're good at business or things like that, things move so quickly that plans are kind of irrelevant because you end up getting done in a year what you thought would take five or ten years to get done. Um and I'm starting, not I'm not saying that I'm you're Charlie Munger. I wish. Uh, but he if I'm starting to notice that things are moving so quickly and changing all the time. It's more so about just keep adapting and keep making the best decisions I can. But the rough principle I've got is I think when I've got larger chunks of cash, I'm buying larger commercial deals. And that's more so to create sort of a lifelong almost portfolio that I may end up, I don't even know if I'll end up selling any of those assets. I'm not too sure. I've got to make sure that I'm able to hold them in a way where I can still keep my return on equity high. But I think longer term, it's basically going to be a three-part portfolio. It's gonna be large commercial deals. Then there's going to be a portion of this, my favorite asset class, which is this high growth residential property that is ultimately generating the wealth and the deposits for some of these big commercial deals over time. And so buying early within a growth cycle, selling at the end of the growth cycle, pocketing the cash, buying more resie stuff. Because you've got there's only so much resie that you can buy. Like you eventually, unless you've got some crazy business, you eventually hit a borrowing capacity or a cash flow ceiling that you can't get past. So there'll always be a portion of that. Commercial stuff is almost infinitely scalable because the way lending works in that space. And then the other part is just sort of the liquid part of my portfolio. So that's a certain a large cash buffer to ensure that even if there's a financial crisis or whatever happens, that the likelihood of me getting reset back to zero is as minimal as possible. Yeah. And that's going to be partially cash, probably partially, you know, index funds and stuff over time. And it depends once my portfolio gets my well, my net worth gets to a size of where it's it's pretty large, which if someone wanted a number, like if I was at net worth around five mil plus, then I think that's the part where I start having small percentages in things like commodities like gold, silver, some in crypto, just small percentages, because when your portfolio gets that size, you want to for to truly diversify, you need asset classes that are uncorrelated. So it's so if one's going well, another one's not going so well, that even if there's a financial crisis or whatever, there's a good portion of your portfolio that's really resilient, or that those asset classes perform well during those times. So, and that's how you ultimately, as you scale a portfolio, you reduce, reduce the volatility of your of your portfolio, which creates greater financial resilience. Um, if anyone wants to look more into that stuff by Ray Dalio, who created the largest hedge fund of the world, has a lot of really interesting um ideas around that. But that's essentially what it's going to look like from here. Because at that level, I can scale that with that structure portfolio, I can scale that to 100 mil plus if I wanted to. Like that structure, yeah, while keeping my return on equity much higher than what I'd get if I just stuck it in the stock market.

SPEAKER_01 52:20

What about you? You've thought about it, you've thought about it. I I um I'm not Charlie Monga, but I almost feel like Charlie Monga um saying rings true to me at the moment. I'm going through a uh a new business um that's that's uh growing and expanding. Um that changes incomes, um, that changes pressure, that changes my risk tolerance on certain things. Um but I honestly don't know the potential yet, but I am moving in the direction. The direction is still have an ice owner occupy house in the Shire and to build a passive income so that if I wanted to pack it all up tomorrow or give the keys to Tez and say, Hey man, you run this thing and I go do something else. Um I could do that and I I wouldn't be reliant on the business income. There'd be a portfolio income. That's a kind of North Star, and that is to me pure lifestyle play. Like I I'm not doing nothing, but I'm playing tennis with JL in the morning. The kids are playing with us, you know, they're old enough that we're like, we can travel, we can do some education, we can do some stuff, and then we're traveling and experiencing other cultures and becoming well-rounded human beings. Um, but that's like the North Star. Like, how are we getting there? It's moving quickly at the moment, and I'm assessing each stage of the way, but I don't want to think too far ahead that I'm making decisions where I'm not fully capable of understanding yet. People always used to say to me, like, oh man, what would you do if you had a freaking 100 property portfolio or you're making this type of money? Well, while I was like, I don't know, to be honest. I'm not there yet. And it's hard, it's hard to know what to do when you're there when you've never been there. And when you're there, I think the you you know and see things that other people don't see. And that's a that's a piece of the puzzle, right?

SPEAKER_00 54:12

Um It's funny that the two guys are spent half the podcast talking about how important it is to get clear on your goals. Basically, both of our answers were like a bit wishy-washy. It's a bit wishy-washy. But I think it just comes back to the idea that I at a certain scale or a certain level, it's it's a little bit harder to predict.

SPEAKER_01 54:30

I I 100% know. Jamie Lee and I spoke about it yesterday. I need to go back and reset my goals, and I'm I'm nervous on that. Back in 2024, we did that really hardcore. We spent six days at Tony Robbins dialing in what our goals are, and we've surpassed all of them. What we thought in five years, we surpassed all of them in two years. Okay, and we're good. We even spoke about it on the weekend of like, we didn't think we'd be here. We didn't think this is what it would be like. How long do we enjoy it for before we lock back in and go to the next level? We're starting to not be bored of enjoying it, but it's like we're fighters, bro. We work like absolute dogs, and that's what we've been taught. That's the one I should I shouldn't say that's the one good thing we got from our parents, but our both of our parents, both of our home lives, were like that. Work, work, work, work, work. And now we're trying to add on to work, invest, work, do like the other things that make it worthwhile long term, not just in the short term. Last thing I'm gonna ask y'all, and then we're gonna wrap it when building your portfolio and building a lifestyle. What was the a truth that you believed then that's changed to now? I can say one if it if it helps, y'all. Go for it. At the start of my property investing thing, I did believe that buying a unit was a bad investment because I lived in Crenella and the units in Crenella haven't performed well at all for a long time. But um, I've bought a property in Perth, and at the time of me buying a property in Perth, I know I knew that there were two by one units on Rockingham Foreshore that were selling for about 180 to 220. They're all worth over 500 now. That is a truth that I believed. Then about investing.

SPEAKER_00 56:21

That's a good one.

SPEAKER_01 56:22

Um, about lifestyle? Like, there's so many sayings about like um property investors. Man, I feel like I I've done a couple of like things on Instagram, and people like, oh, property investors are absolute demons of this world, and they're taking they're they're taking advantage of people's basic needs, they need housing, and now they're profiting from it, they're Satan or something. I think that w I don't know if that was a truth, but uh there was beliefs about people with money, and then I don't think that's true anymore. I think people are who they are, and if they've got more money or less money, the money is an amplifier.

SPEAKER_00 57:03

Well, the data backs that up as well. So even on the happiness scale, um there was this idea that pretty much happiness only goes up to about 70 grand a year US, which adjusted for inflation is about 120, 10 grand a year US these days. But the there was two studies into that, and the two people that did the two studies ended up getting it together, I think, in 2023 and worked out that really what happens is if you're already naturally a happy person and you get more money, you end up happier. Whereas if you're not a naturally happy person and you get more money, then it doesn't really improve your life. You're still unhappy. So I thought that was a bit of an interesting, interesting fact. Yeah. Uh and it makes a lot a lot of sense. But in terms of stuff that sort of changed like truths, I think that's a good one that you've just described there. To be honest, I more of a personal one. I thought I would never find work that I really enjoyed. That was part of what drove me so hard to try and retire so early, is I just thought I just didn't like, I just hated work. Turns out I just didn't have nice jobs.

SPEAKER_01 58:02

I think that's a lot of 20, bro. I think that's a lot of guys in their mid-20s. They say, like, I'm just gonna work hard, invest, and then I'm gonna retire when I'm so when I have kids. But I think that's that's spot on for heaps of people, man.

SPEAKER_00 58:12

Yeah. And I probably thought that I thought getting to a particular passive income number would be more gratifying and more freeing than it probably really is. I as soon as you hit that level, they wouldn't want to hear that man. Well, as soon as I hit that level, your your stress around finances and stuff, yes, it dropped because it gave me more options. Uh, it meant that I didn't have to work so hard, and there wasn't this pressure that in order to get food on the table, I had to earn this paycheck. But you start worrying a lot more about things like taxes and structuring. You have a lot more chats to your accountant, and then you start thinking a lot more defensively as well. That's something that I've noticed massively, is the skill of building wealth and then maintaining it are two different skills. Oh, 100%. So, and I really had to have a hard that's why I said earlier that um as you have some success, you need to be really careful about winners' bias. That there is a degree of luck as well as skill in the stuff that you and I have done. And so we need to be really careful about not getting complacent and still being as diligent in the way that we plan, the way that we structure, the way that we pick deals and things like that as we were at the beginning. In fact, we should be more so because we've to counteract the win the bias. Yeah, the window bias. Exactly.

unknown 59:39

Right.

SPEAKER_01 59:40

I honestly we're just chit-chatting. This is a normal conversation for us about maybe a little bit deeper with a couple of notes. But um, man, I could talk to you for ages, but we got a bit of a celebration tonight. Thank you for coming up. Buyer's edge one year. We've been going for one year at the moment, right?

SPEAKER_00 59:56

So wild. The stuff that you guys have done in one year is insane.

SPEAKER_01 59:59

I I really appreciate you've come up here on your own bat from Melbourne, Victoria, to come and celebrate us. I mean, I really appreciate it. And I love like you sharing your knowledge, your experience, and just your um philosophy or thesis on property investing. So thanks so much for coming again.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:17

Love being here. Good to chat. Thanks, Chase.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:20

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