Moves to Momentum

How Smart Investors Structure Their Finance 🏦💼

• Jason Titus

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In this episode of Moves to Momentum, Jason sits down with Chris Raymond, Director of Unconditional Finance, to unpack the finance strategies that help property investors grow their portfolios with confidence.

From borrowing capacity and loan structuring to avoiding the common finance mistakes that can hold investors back, Chris shares practical insights into what lenders are really looking for and how to position yourself for long-term success.

Here's what you'll learn:

🏡 How the right finance strategy can accelerate your property journey
💰 The biggest borrowing mistakes investors make
📈 How to structure your lending for future growth
🧠 What lenders are looking for in today's market
🚀 How to maximise your borrowing potential without compromising your future plans
🔑 Why finance should support your investment strategy—not limit it

Whether you're buying your first investment property or looking to scale your portfolio, this episode is packed with practical advice to help you make smarter finance decisions.

🎧 Tune in now to learn how the right lending strategy can unlock your next property opportunity.

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SPEAKER_00

There's still plenty of time. We've got a 60-day window. Clients are thinking about all negotiations with their accountant to set up a self-any super fund. You need to surround yourself with experts, people that have skin in the game, they can navigate the current environment over the next two or three years. Often people say you know, you've got to rent this, can't have your dream house. I believe you can have your cake and eat it too if you structure things correctly. Grow the investment portfolio first. That will give you choice five, six, seven, eight years time.

SPEAKER_03

They want their cake and they want to eat it today. Welcome, Chris Raymond, to the Move to Momentum podcast. Just a humble lad from Penrith, now in the Big Smoke director at Unconditional Finance.

SPEAKER_00

Correct. Yes, mate. Appreciate you finally inviting me here. And uh yeah, looking forward to chatting to yourself and our audience today, mate.

SPEAKER_03

No, man, thanks for coming in. And what do you mean finally? I I uh you we spoke and I was like, man, let's get you on the podcast.

SPEAKER_00

No, obviously. I've been watching from afar. So uh yeah, no, mate, love your work. Obviously, yeah, we've known each other for many years now. So um yeah, looking forward to uh yeah, going through some topical conversations today and yeah, sort of explaining my situation and you know my portfolio and everything else like that. So mate, pleasure to be on.

SPEAKER_03

I wanted to originally get you on to talk about your property portfolio. You know, you've got a young family, you're building your property portfolio for the last few years and what it looks like to be a high performer in business, but also have your um family and property portfolio, like you've got a lot going on.

SPEAKER_01

Correct.

SPEAKER_03

But there's a very topical thing that I want to talk about first, and that's the changes in SMSF lending landscape, everything. So it's been what, not even 24 hours since that's changed. And what have your clients said? I've my phone was going off bing, bing, bing, bing, bing. What have you said to your clients and what have you heard?

SPEAKER_00

Correct. Yeah, I think I mentioned to you out there, mate, that you know, I think we're in a planning session. Steph, my operations manager, just sort of looking, you know, what does the second half of next year look like? And then about sort of midday yesterday, all of a sudden the phone sort of blew up, and you know, a lot of buyers agents, a lot of brokers, a lot of clients started texting me. So I had to obviously pull myself away from that meeting and just see what happened. And I guess, you know, there's a lot on social media about it, but you know, in short, you know, good old Albanese, everyone's property investment mate, um, he's done a deal with the Greens um to try and pass his, you know, CGT. So capital gain stacks um changes and negative gearings changes through Parliament. And I think the Greens said through the Senate the only way they will support that is if you then ban residential investment lending through a self-managed super fund. So yeah, it's just sort of come from left field. Um, you know, we can talk politics all day, but we're not here for that. You know, I'm all for change in terms of if you take something to the public, i.e. an election, this is our proposal, this is what we're thinking, and you know, let the you know, electorate decide. But sort of to do the dirty, to get in bear with the greens just to get, you know, these initial changes through, that doesn't sit well with me. So, I mean, just to summarize quickly, yeah, you know, the Labour government with the Greens are going to be banning residential investment property um through an SMSF in about 45 days time. So legislation is looking like it's gonna be passed, I'd say, in the next one to two weeks.

SPEAKER_02

Yep.

SPEAKER_00

And, you know, your clients, our clients, every client on the street that was thinking about or has an active pre-approval, looking to purchase a property through that vehicle, you've got a 45-day window to now sign a contract of sale before that is off the table for good. Wow. So um, so yeah, some huge changes. Um, and you know, I see a lot of commentary on media this morning, you know, the wealthy, you they get, you know, attacked again. This vehicle, in terms of investing in, was not for the wealthy. You know, this is for mum and dads that were traditionally priced out. So they couldn't actually borrow in their personal names, in their personal entities. You know, we used to say to a lot of our clients, mate, if they had a balance inside of their super fund of about 160 to 180,000, we can talk business. Um, and you know, this is a set and forget strategy. Obviously, they can't access any profit profits until they reach retirement age, but this is a way those mum and dads, those tradies, those you know, younger generation type people can get into the market, start to grow a portfolio in the background, and the government and the Koreans have said, done. So man, there's there's so much, you know.

SPEAKER_03

I know Jamie Lee and I, we bought a property in our super fund. We had maybe about the 180 mark as well. We ended up buying a four-bedroom, two-bathrouse in Townsville. This is back in started 2024 for maybe like 500 grand. Yes. I think that thing's worth probably seven, seven fifty now.

SPEAKER_00

Correct.

SPEAKER_03

And you're thinking that's two years we've held that property for, and it's maybe gone up 200, 250 grand in two years. Like, that's incredible amount of capital gain for anyone. Like, I've literally taken 180, I've more than doubled it in a two and a half year window in regards to raw capital from using my SMSF.

SPEAKER_01

Correct.

SPEAKER_03

That's do you think that the the Libs, maybe even uh Pauline Hansen, the One Nation, they'll come in and just instantly abolish this thing, or how how long do you think it'll stick around for?

SPEAKER_00

So two things to that. So um on Townsville, actually, yeah, myself and my wife, we actually bought two properties in our super fund in Townsville. I think about 480, they're worth you know six, six fifty. So, you know, you could leverage to a certain amount inside of your super fund. So that why that's why it was an attractive vehicle to invest in. And you know, would my retail super fund, the industry super funds that you know, the government are obviously tied in with the unions and things like that, would that have performed better than these properties in Townsville?

SPEAKER_03

Uh if that's a question, I don't I I don't think so.

SPEAKER_00

That's a no.

SPEAKER_03

Mainly from the leverage, even like just the leverage alone, no. Yes, but like what what's it's done? I've checked this stuff regularly. 18% last 12 months, that's what Townsville's done growth wise. Correct. Right. That's if if I'm if they're offering me that in the super, I'm like, what the hell's going on here? That's incredible.

SPEAKER_00

Correct, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Like anything, uh, eight to ten percent is like aggressive, correct.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so I mean, our net position is you know, north of $300,000 by buying those properties, even though you took debt out on it. So and the rent covers the repayments and things like that. So that vehicle is going to be taken away soon. So I guess just in summary, quickly, mate, like, yeah, if clients are thinking about or they were in negotiations in negotiations with their accountant to set up a self-boney super fund, do it now. Speak to people like us, speak to your broker, get it done. We have a 60 to 70, or probably a 60-day window now to sign a contract. Um, I know you guys can turn, you know, good stock around very quickly. Um, so we can still get you in the market. Your second question there, one nation liberals, I think they've gone on public record saying if they get in parliament, if they get elected in, I think, two years' time is when the next election is, they will reverse those changes. Now, I always say to our clients, an investment strategy is not on hope, it's not on what might happen. So we need to look at what is the plan today, what is the plan over the next you know, 60 days, and then beyond that over the next sort of 18, 24 month period before that election gets called. So um, yeah, I mean, there are options. Um, and the other point is, you know, you can still invest in commercial property as well.

SPEAKER_03

So yeah. So commercial's been doing really well in people's super, and that I feel like Resi. When I first heard about buying a property in your SMSF, most people were doing commercial stuff. And then now Resi, I think maybe just after COVID, when the the growth had just exploded in a lot of these areas, um, I think it started to become a lot more popular because people could see the returns. Correct. So it's like, why wouldn't I do this?

SPEAKER_00

Correct, yeah. You just get a little bit of a caveat with um commercial. I think you need to be, you know, certain, I should say, in terms of who you're going to be working with in that space, because I'm I'm seeing a lot of you know what were traditional buyers' agents in the residential side all of a sudden offering commercial. Yeah. Um, and commercial, you normally price point to get into commercial property is normally a lot higher as well, mate. Um, so you normally need more funds in your super. Um, and you know, a lot of those mum and dads that were buying sort of residential assets up to six or seven hundred thousand, they're not gonna be able to buy commercial property sort of sub that amount. So, you know, you are gonna wipe out or the gap is gonna get a lot wider between the has.

SPEAKER_03

I know. It feels like that's what it is.

SPEAKER_00

So yeah, it's yeah, I guess, you know, obviously I'm a little bit biased to property in general, but more so safe, you know, effective investing. You know, we've hopped over 1200 clients, mom and dad clients. Yeah, you know, and I guess, you know, their vehicle of choice was property, doing it responsible, and you know, obviously, you know, investing in super as well. It's funny you just mentioned that before.

SPEAKER_03

I honestly spoke to my brother this morning. He called me, bro, what's Albo doing? Blah, blah, blah. I just wanted to have a bit of a uh a chat about what's happening.

SPEAKER_00

What did you say?

SPEAKER_03

And I said, Oh, same old tricks, but it it does feel like, and maybe I'm putting my tinfall hat on here, it feels like they're moving towards this um, you know, the World Economic Forum. They spoke about this a few years ago. Like, you know, you'll you'll own nothing, you'll be happy about it. And like this real um, what is it, like uh one world currency type of vibe, like that the government will be responsible for a lot of things. It feels like they're setting that more and more up in the in in the policies and the way they're doing things. I I think that's where we're moving to. And to have assets in your in your name is going to put you in a very strong position. Correct. And this world's changing so quickly. It is AI, tech, governments, the amount of stimulus going on in all these major countries. It's correct.

SPEAKER_00

It's crazy. Yeah, and then I guess the other layer to that is inflation as well. So put your money in the bank, and inflation's growing more, so it's eroding away, you know, your dollar. It's growing at a faster rate than what you know the the interest rate is in parking in Commonwealth Bank savings account as well. So yeah, it is interesting because it looks like anyone that's got aspirations, and it's not, you know, the wealthy guy over there earning three million dollars a year that's got a 20 property portfolio. It is the mum and dads. And I think over 60 or 70 percent of Australians that own an investment property, they own one property only. Wow. These are guys, you know, that are working 60 hour weeks, they're tradies, they're mum and dads, they're teachers, they're you know, police officers that just trying to get ahead. And if you're trying to get ahead in the current environment, the government goes whack. Um it seems like that, eh? It's ridiculous. I mean, in the private sector, so in business, in your business, you want to reward people that are aspirational, don't you? Yeah. You know, people that work in economy, you know, people that work after hours, people that put in, people that hire people and employ people, you want to reward those people. And that's not a tax dodge or anything like that. A lot of people online are, you know, you're trying to avoid paying tax. Trust me, the tax you and I pay is probably the equivalent of what, you know, 10 people would pay in their normal P A Y G jobs, respectively. So, mate, we could talk all day about politics. I know we're not here.

SPEAKER_03

We're about to talk about you and your property journey.

SPEAKER_00

Correct. So, but yeah, interesting times anyway. So I think, you know, more so than ever, just quickly, mate, you need to surround yourself with experts. People that have been in the game, people that have skin in the game. You know, I've got 20 plus financiers experience. I know you've been in the game for many, many years as well. Yeah. Not your Johnny come latelies that don't have that experience at own one investment property. You want a team of experts and professionals that can navigate the current environment over the next two or three years, and then we'll see what you know an election will bring.

SPEAKER_03

On that, quickly, before we move on and get into your personal story, how long is it taking for you to get people pre-approved, set up, ready to purchase in their SMSF? Like if someone, this will be out on Monday, the 20 something of June.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

How quickly can you turn it a pre-apprivil around in their SMSF?

SPEAKER_00

48 hours. 48 hours. 48 hours, yeah. So I guess we have probably done over 100 SMSF loans for our customers in the last two years.

SPEAKER_02

Share it.

SPEAKER_00

We know which banks are more friendly towards SMSF lenders in terms of you know what they'll allow them to borrow, and I guess the conditions and obviously their documents being digital and things like that as well. So um a client, I was actually driving down to your office, mate, actually rang me up and said, Shit, Chris, what's going on? You know, I said, you know, speak to your accountant. There's still plenty of time. We've got a 60-day window, there or thereabouts. So, you know, you get your accountant to turn it around, do the rollover. And as soon as I get the SMSF trust name, we can go to work. Yeah. 48 hours, Jace, market ready, your team do the magic in the background. We can secure a property in a few weeks after that.

SPEAKER_03

I think it's very important for people to do that before July 1. Because from what I understand, setting up a trust after July 1 with this new anti-money laundering situation, it's going to be a lot more difficult to get a trust set up. Your accountant has got to go through a lot more hoops than what they used to. So what you're taking 48 hours.

SPEAKER_00

So it's interesting. I know it's, I think agents now have to follow anti-money laundering rules. And also accountants. And accountants as well. Yeah, just to obviously try and, you know, criminals that will obviously try to exploit, you know, that loophole, so to speak. So um, yeah, there's a little bit more to it. But um, mate, yeah, I think the big thing at the moment, poor old accountants, I mean, they're making a million dollars a year type thing, the amount of changes and advice they're giving to clients. But if you have an accountant that can turn it around in a week, 48 hours later, you're market ready. Yeah, that's right. Jason, bang, let's go, mate. Let's go. Let's go.

SPEAKER_03

But um, you you've been a can you tell us a little bit about like you're you're a humble lad from Penrith. How did you like get into property investing? Can you tell us a little bit about your personal story?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so um born and bred Western Sydney, um, you would say a blue-collar house. Um, and you know, mum and dad worked hard. Dad was always, he was always sort of a businessman. He tried a little bit of this, a little bit of that, probably didn't quite work out. Um, but he installed a lot of, I guess, the DNA around, you know, how to run business, how to follow up clients, customer service, you know, the one-on-ones on, you know, what I believe sort of make a good business. So yeah, went to school out there, had a great time, went to public school, didn't go to high school. I sorry, went to high school, I didn't go to um university after high school. And then I sort of had a choice. I was probably a little bit lost at 18, like most people are. And a lot of my mates started getting trades, and you know, they were earning 100 grand a year at 18, 19, 20. Um, I for some reason had something in me that just wanted to learn about money and property, and I always wanted a white-collar job in terms of I wanted to work in a bank or something like that. So yeah, got my first job um at ING, and I think I was earning about $45,000 a year, whilst my mates were, you know, third and fourth year tradies.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Mate, they were earning $100,000 a year. So it sort of started from there. So I had a dream, just you know, I wanted to work in finance, I wanted to learn about lending. And sort of around that 21, 22 years of age mark, I started to become interested in property. Um, you know, how do I get out of this rat race a lot sooner than you know, the traditional person and mate, work my way through a bank. I never actually worked in Teleland, so I wasn't customer-facing, but I was always in third party. So I always dealt with brokers in the background. Yeah, you know, I used to do the loan documents to start with. I used to then work in credit. Eventually I became a BDM, so a business development manager looking after brokers. So I guess my grounding when I eventually started my business around 2016-2017, I'd done the apprenticeship. You know, I knew how to read tax returns. Yeah, you know, I knew how to read pay slips, you know, I knew how to structure deals. I mean, it got to a stage, mate, where I was actually coaching my brokers as a bank BDM. Hey, Jason, this is how you should structure the deal. This is how you should read, you know, a tax return and a PL. So that's uh that's the working side. Um, like I mean, since then, you know, it started as a one-man band.

SPEAKER_03

Umreal, mate.

SPEAKER_00

Like most people. Yeah. Just sitting in my bedroom, started writing loans, and I think my BDM background, so my business development background, you know, there's those that say that would do it, and there's those that actually fucking do it, excuse my language. Um, and I just made a target. I sat there. LinkedIn used to be a lot better to connect with professionals. And I think in the first month I connected with a hundred professionals.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Hey Jason, Chris, unconditional finance. Actually, lied and said I've been broken for two years, been broken for two weeks. Um but I knew I could back up what I said. So um, so yeah, so just mate, just doing that activity, sitting in my bedroom, went out there, hustled, met a property group, and I got my first relationship, and I wrote like 60 something million in my first year of business, which is huge.

SPEAKER_03

That's map, bro. That's massive now, back then in 2016. That's crazy.

SPEAKER_00

Correct, yeah. And um, mate, just to sort of wrap that up, yeah, we've grown the business over years. Um, you know, we've got, I think, 12 in the Sydney team now, I've got 12 in the Philippines. Um, and I'm at a stage in the business now where a lot of my juniors, they're now accredited mortgage brokers, and they're gonna be the next stars of the you know the business. So we want to coach, train, mentor them. Yeah, um, and mate, yeah, we're we're in a good position.

SPEAKER_03

Unreal, man. Like from from where you started 10 years ago to where you are now.

SPEAKER_00

Correct.

SPEAKER_03

Very different.

SPEAKER_00

Correct.

SPEAKER_03

And what but you you have learned so many things in regards to business, you would have seen so many changes, for goodness sakes, in the lending space. What what's some of the things we did you ever get any death wobbles along the way?

SPEAKER_00

Or I think death wobbles come with hiring staff because I actually had a very good experience with my first few hires. Um and that was a little bit of luck to a certain degree. Um, one of my first hires, Joel mentioned him before on a few different podcasts and stuff like that. He's now running 150 million a year. He was a client in the Navy at 19, then approached me and said, Chris, I want to be a broker. Um, why, mate? You know, I want to get out of the Navy. It's something I've always been interested in. And I think, you know, my biggest take in business is we can train the technical side. You can do the apprenticeships hit under Chris Raymond, you know, you will be good at what you do on in terms of mortgages after three or four years. But I think the behavioral side, the ticker, the want, that person at work, you know, their hours are nine to five, but they're sitting in the office at six o'clock, they're taking phone calls. You can't train that. I think that's in that's in there, that's your DNA. And I think, yeah, I think around hiring, we've sort of, you know, we've got that wrong a little bit over time because I mean the resume looks fantastic. Yeah, Jason's worked at a bank, he's worked at a you know, a brokerage before. Bring him in, bring him in. 98% of times they're shit. Yeah. Um, so how do we get the person that has the dog in them? You know, we had a scaffolder, he's brilliant in terms of a scaffolder, the want. Chris, I want to know about property, finance, lending, numbers. You can train them if they have the want, you know, the desire to learn and put in the extra one percent. That's that's the key.

SPEAKER_03

I mean, I find that in the buyers agent space too. Like that I've I have done uh uh a couple of hires that technically know a lot about structuring property portfolios, understand what a good deal is, and then you put them on the phone to a buy uh to a real estate agent, and the real estate agent just freaking rolls them over, man. Like they're just bowled over, and they can't keep up with the real estate agent. You need to keep up with the real estate agent because that's where you're gonna build your relationship. And that's what I really admired about you in your business, you're a relationship first type of guy. That's us. Like we're relationship first, it's one of our values, we got it up on the wall here, and it's like that's how we want to be with our clients in our business partnerships, like just relationship first, not deal first, not money first, relationship first. Because I think that kind of like ends up being the long game and stands a test of time other than one deal or this or that.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, we're the same, you know. I always say to my team, especially the younger ones, because they haven't experienced life. Put yourself, this is the biggest financial decision that any client's gonna make, you know. They are stressing out, you know. If they are coming to us asking, hey Jason, you know, where's my loan up to? We failed in our job, in my opinion. So put yourself there in the living room going, I haven't heard from Chris for two days. Just a quick text, hey Jason, we're on it, we're gonna hear back from the bank this afternoon. That's the biggest thing. Doesn't take much, it doesn't take much. And I think the other thing, mate, is know your client. Right, don't be afraid to say no to deals. Yep. And I know when you're starting in business, you're like, shit, we'll do it all. You know, bring it on, bring it on, you know, the the dirty deal that the broker down the road couldn't do, you know, give me the challenge. And you know, we are known for doing um more technical, complex loans, but we're known also saying, you know, sorry, Jason, this isn't isn't it's not a deal for us. So work with your ideal client, work with your ideal niche. And I think that's sort of been the biggest learning curve, you know. And I'm trying to pass that on to the younger guys in the office as well.

SPEAKER_03

I think that's like, can you tell us who is your ideal client? Because you you at the start of the episode, you're talking about like understanding your team, and we're really nailing that at the moment. You've met my marketing manager a few times now, but my marketing manager, my ops manager, and also the Jordan L Discovery Core Consultant. We talk about our ideal client, we'd named him Steve. Um, but Steve is 40-ish, yes, late 30s, early 40s. He either has a business that he's been running for the last five, five plus years, or he's like quite high up in his career.

SPEAKER_01

Yep.

SPEAKER_03

And there's maybe five clients that Steve kind of morphs into, but they're all parents, they're all dads, yeah. They all like are in committed, strong relationships, they all really love. They love their kids.

SPEAKER_01

Yes.

SPEAKER_03

And they talk about spending time with their kids a lot. It's like, oh, I want to give back to my kids. I want to set my kids up. I want to do this so I'm not working so much so I can spend more time with my kids. So it's like that seems to be a thing. And they all seem to have like had some type of sporting background. They all like kind of excelled in sports when they were younger. And that I think that has built the dog in them. Yes. They got the dog in them, but they're still like good family men.

SPEAKER_00

Yes.

SPEAKER_03

That seems to be our target market.

SPEAKER_00

Who's yours? Correct. Yeah. I mean, traditionally, like, not that we like me personally, I've never navigated towards first-hand buyers. I mean, first-hand buyers are brilliant. Um, we've actually actually got a broker that actually niches in that now. So he does all the first-hand buyers. But ideally, you know, uh, even young people, young, ambitious people that say, Chris, I want to create wealth through property. I don't want one property. I want to map out our multi-property portfolio strategy. Yeah. That's we get a lot of business in that sort of 21 to sort of 35 range with those type of clients. Um, we also get a lot of business people as well. You know, we can read trust returns, tax returns, you know. My I've got three um personal trust entities myself, SMSF. So we're very good in terms of reading complex tax structures, working with your accountant, the self-employed person, um, and mapping out a strategy for them. Um, and I guess our next level of client is, you know, mum and dads, um, like you said, kids, you know. I find I've got two kids myself, a boy six and a boy four. Anytime a customer says they have kids, like that is almost, I can we almost get an instant connection. Yeah. And I always say, Jace, how old are your kids? You know, seven and five. Oh shit, minus six and four. How's it going? You know, we always get we there's always a nervous laugh when you say how's it going? Because, you know, parenthood is is hard in general. But there's that connection. Chris is a family man, he's growing a business, we're in a similar position as well. We trust him with his advice. So yeah, we don't want to be all things to everyone, but I'd say between, you know, that 20 to 35 and then that sort of 30 to sort of 45 range, your mum and dad, your professional type clients.

SPEAKER_03

Those are two types of people. Yeah, it is funny. Like, I I'm a big believer in you want to be taking advice or guidance from someone who's got the been there, done that experience. And since becoming a dad, the dad card or the like in a committed relationship with kids. Yeah, I almost don't want to hear any advice from someone who isn't in that. Yes. Because the perspective of I've been up all night with a crying baby with a wife who's got the shits at me because we're both so tired, and you still are able to show up, give a high level of service and care for your clients in that. It tells you something about the person.

SPEAKER_00

It does, yeah. They're more understanding. Like if I'm I predominantly work in the office four days a week, but that one day, you know, kids come home at three o'clock. Chris has an appointment at four o'clock. I've I've locked the office bedroom. Um, they're banging at the door, and that parent can hear it and they just laugh. Yeah. They accept it. We understand, Chris.

SPEAKER_03

Matt, all good.

SPEAKER_00

You know, it's it's a madhouse at our house as well. So it's a lot more acceptable. And I guess that's just that connection at the start. Chris is a family man, you know, Jason's a family man. We trust them. Um, and it does build that rapport almost instantly. So yeah, big believer in that.

SPEAKER_03

What about your beloved, bro? Your missus? Because you're talking about like young Thundercat, you know, you're just like you come out of the banks, you just you're earning 60 million in your first year, just with a couple of LinkedIn DMs. Um you miss been on the journey with you the whole time.

SPEAKER_00

She is, yeah. So, and just I guess in the broking network. So we've got a six and a four-year-old, um, and it's not a poor us story, but yeah, my oldest has autism as well, level three autism, which you know, parents out there that you know have a child with autism, non-verbal, in nappy still. Yeah, a lot of challenges, a lot of therapies, a lot of things that go into that as well. So, and often people say to me, How do you actually do it? So that's that's impressive. Yeah, and I always say, you know, my success is her success, you know. You know, it's not me, Chris Raymond, up here getting this award or getting these accolades. It's the work that she does. And I try and be as actively involved with the kids as possible. I don't disappear. You know, I drop the kids off normally once or twice twice a week to work. Um, I'm very disciplined with my time, but I guess the work, I won't call it work, but I guess what she does in terms of picking up the kids and doing all that sort of you know, three o'clock to five o'clock work whilst I'm in the office, still working, that contributes to our success as a family as well. It's not I I work, you don't work. It's not like that in our household. Um, but yeah, the wife is the rock because she can see, you know, I think all businessmen, mate, like, you know, it looks pretty on the outside. But there's been nights, you know, I come home, I fucking cry. Like it's like there's a lot. You've got clients about to lose their deposit, you've got business decisions, you've got to let staff go, you've got to fire someone, you know, you've got to look at your budgeting, you've got to, you've got to, there's so many different things that come into business. And, you know, my wife often says, You make it look so easy, mate. I am stressing out on the inside. Maybe I make it look easy to my family, but there's a lot to that. But what she contributes to the family allows me to do what I do best with work.

SPEAKER_03

So, how long you guys been together for?

SPEAKER_00

Uh, I should know this, she'll probably nail me for this. Uh, we've been married for nine years, been together 13. All right, nice. Met her in the bank. Met her in the bank, office romance.

SPEAKER_03

Office romance, but my my misses are work too.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So um, but yeah, I mean, there's challenges, you know, people that are hyper focused with business, and I I get hyper-focused with things, whether it's investing, whether it's business, whether it's sport, whether it's, you know, whatever we do, you know, there's um you've got to balance your time because it can't all just be about work, even everything you're doing for works for your family, for your kids. You know, anyone that runs a business would probably understand, you know, what we're saying. Yeah. So you definitely have to look at your time and you know, how do I spend more time with the kids? How do I, you know, show up more for my wife and all that kind of stuff as well. It's not just business, business, business.

SPEAKER_03

So I gotta I try and I I heard this quote once, and it's like if you put as much time and effort into auditing your business in your marriage, it's like, what would your marriage be? And that bro, that humbles me all the time because every morning I come in, I do a like a call, who do we sign up this week? Who do we do deals for this week? Like, where's everything at? Like you do kind of like just a quick sweep of how's the business health going in regards to new client sign-ons, to customer service, to customer expectations. But how often do we do that in our marriage, man?

SPEAKER_00

That's a good point. Yeah, so we're always looking at our business, and I guess being in numbers. Um, I just did a 12-month forecast, you know. Worst case scenario, Albert's got his hands on my business, you know, obviously volume's coming down. Um, you know, what why stress that's a stress tested my business? I know a lot of tradies that don't do that well, but you know, when do we do that at home? So yeah. And I sorry, mate, you go on?

SPEAKER_03

Oh, I I I feel like so many times I say to Jamie Lee, like I feel like a lot this year I've said it. I'm so sorry, I've taken you for granted, you know. I've taken you for granted that you're here, you're supporting me, you push me. Yeah, and I haven't given back.

SPEAKER_00

Correct.

SPEAKER_03

Oh like a I feel like a dog.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, but how do you do that? You know, and I guess someone said to me once, you need to spend money to buy your time back. And what I mean by that is you've, you know, you've got to start the scale of business to a certain size because it was Jason at the start, Jason ringing agents, Jason signing contracts, Jason chasing conveyances, you know, Chris Raymond was doing that as well. So you need to build a business, a scale of business to a certain size, whatever you wire, whatever you want is, so it allows you to buy some of your time back. So then you have more time with the family, the kids, you're not doing the 15-hour days, still doing nine on 10, but it's not the 15.

SPEAKER_03

How often do you guys speak about that? And does your property portfolio fit in that conversation?

SPEAKER_00

Uh, it's an interesting one. Um, I mean, I probably don't share enough. We're being very honest in camera here, because yeah, I guess I'm so up during the day, and you know, that's that's you know, that's a fault of mine. When I say up, because you're up for your clients, you know, you're in interviews, you're speaking to, you know, um referral partners, you know, you're speaking to your team. Like managing a team is another family outside of outside of your family. So it's probably not something I share naturally. It doesn't come naturally. I've had a hard day, babe, or you know, I'm struggling a little bit here. Um, you know, I try and be very disciplined with my time. And, you know, I go to the gym at 5 a.m. three or four days a week, you know, that's that's that's Chris Raymond time. Yeah. And that allows me to sort of, you know, re reinvent, revitalize my mind, so to speak. You know, have my coffee, have my steam. I'm I'm back home at 6:30 and the Rug Racks are getting up, the wife's getting up as well. So um, yeah, whilst I probably don't share it enough, I try and build discipline into my mornings and my day that allows me to have more time with them at home.

SPEAKER_03

That's good. So, and you guys, when did you start your portfolio? You guys have how many properties you've got now?

SPEAKER_00

We've got 14. Um, yeah, I mean, I it's it doesn't sit naturally for me to share that, but you know, I'm I'm pushing you a bit here.

SPEAKER_03

No, 100%.

SPEAKER_00

No, I'm happy, but yeah, it's probably taken me a year or two. So, you know, I've always been quite humble in the background, you know, a blue-collar worker, not on here saying, Yeah, just bought me six property, blah, blah, blah, blah. But we want to share our story a little bit more with our clients. And we've always shared it internally with our customers, but they want to know that the guy or the team they're working with has walked the walk, has built the strategies that they're looking to build, has set up the entities that they're looking to build as well. So, mate, just over time, I think I bought my first property. As I said, I was always interested in my early 20s and bought a unit in Adelaide for 200 grand.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, nice.

SPEAKER_00

Around 24. Yeah. Um, and then I probably didn't start buying again until about 30. I sort of traveled, you know, I did the London thing and lived over there for a few years and spent money that I didn't have. And then sort of around from 30, for the last 10 years we've accumulated, and in particular, the last sort of four, five, six years. I guess the good thing about a business, if you can get it to a certain stage and you're responsible with your money, you can then start to tip some of those profits back into whether it's property or other sort of assets that you feel are going to grow over time. So yeah, we've built that out. Um, you know, we've bought the white picket fence as well. So often people say, you know, you've got to rent best, or you know, you can't have your your dream house. I believe you can have your cake and eat it too if you structure things correctly.

SPEAKER_03

Agree.

SPEAKER_00

Grow the investment portfolio first. Yep. That will give you choice five, six, seven, eight years time.

SPEAKER_03

So I think people want, they want their cake and they and they want to eat it today. That's the I think everyone wants to buy the white picket fence today and then also build a property portfolio today. But it's like, if you do it in the right sequence, and I think the sequence is very important. That's the key. Is like you can have them both.

SPEAKER_00

That's the key. Yeah. We have conversations. Often the um, there's a bias from one partner um to normally have a white picket fence and you know, the shiny house. But you know, I say let's get on a let's get on Zoom together, let's get on a joint phone call together, let's map it out and you know, show you what it actually looks like. And I guess delay gratification. Yeah. Um, I know everyone wants their everything now. You know, they want to nest and they want to have, you know, that that nice shiny toy. But you know, if we can map this out in the right way, that non-deductible debt in five or 10 years time is going to be very minimal. And then you can have the the the shiny house as well. So again, it's all about strategy, it's all about sort of understanding clients' goals. Um, and I think we articulate that very well with our customers.

SPEAKER_03

Man, you you mentioned something there. How how often do you have that conversation? Because I feel like I have it a lot, man, of oh, we're gonna have a kid soon, or we're planning to have a kid, so we're just gonna get into the market now. And you're like, you guys are buying this type of asset. Where do you want to be? Oh, this is all we can afford, but we want to be here, like this for me around here. Like, let's say like a two and a half million dollar house in Guy Mi Bay, Karing Bar South. Yes, that's right. But you guys are buying a three-by-one small villa at the back of Carang Bar.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Because that's what you can afford now.

SPEAKER_01

Correct.

SPEAKER_03

And it's like they they just are told or they want to just get something now to like kind of like soothe this vulnerability sore or whatever that they haven't done something yet. Yes. And more and more, man, I'm I'm hearing it from like people in the early 30s, late 20s. It's like, oh shit, we need to do something now.

SPEAKER_00

Correct. Yeah, yeah. People well, mate, this is this is every day. That's what we do.

SPEAKER_03

Every day, every day, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Well, it is, yeah. And what do you say to them? Well, it depends on their circumstances, of course.

SPEAKER_03

Um can you couple X, the the most common couple you talk to that's in their mid-20s, let's say, mid-20s, late 20s, that have got this situation. How much are they on? What are they making? How much cash have they got? Yeah. And what advice do you give them?

SPEAKER_00

I think a typical household probably on average would be earning about a you know 160 to 180 combined household income. So, what will that allow you to buy, first of all? So, where it where where are you in Sydney? Yeah, you know, roughly banks five will then five or six times annual income.

SPEAKER_02

Okay.

SPEAKER_00

So, you know, you're probably looking at a $900,000 loan. Will that get you into carrying bar?

unknown

Nah.

SPEAKER_00

Nah. Or will it give you a little unit or something like that? Well, yes. In I mean, pre-budget changes, negative gearing um was not on the owner-occupied home, that still stands, but you could negative gear, obviously, your investment properties as well. So we then model out what does it look like in terms of you know cash flow. You know, if we bought three or four properties that grew at 10% compared to this property and carrying bar at 10%, what does that then look like in 10 years? And then try and give them some real raw data numbers around that. Because basically, once you buy that PPOR, so the principal place of residence, your money's gone. Your repayments are well, respectfully, your repayments are $4,000 a month. Yeah, what can you save? Nothing. And your house is not an asset that's going to help you retire early or create wealth for your family. You need to eventually leverage equity from that, or we build the portfolio first. So, you know, there's little K-bits today.

SPEAKER_03

Like, how much are people saving normally? Because just like $4,000 a month repayments, right? I hear what people are saving, but just for the people along there to maybe feel some comfort or like to have a bit of a benchmark, what is that average couple X? What are they saving per month?

SPEAKER_00

I would say on average they would have in terms of what do they have in savings to cover in savings and how much are they saving per month? Uh often they have anywhere between $10,000.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Can't do anything there. No, no, all the way out. We normally say we're for investor clients, you want a minimum balance of 60 to 70.

SPEAKER_03

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

You know, 10% deposit or 12% deposit, your stamp duty, your costs, your legals, obviously, BA fee. That's your starting point. There are exceptions to the rule. Chris, I've only got $30,000. Do we potentially look to get them in under the first home guarantee scheme? Yeah. In a unit. Yep. 5% deposit, you know, and people are saying, you know, there should be a God-given right to own a property. That's not how it works. You need to show a little bit of sacrifice. If you can't save $30,000 to $40,000 in your per personal circumstances to get you into a market with that 5% deposit scheme, and then, you know, live in it for 12 months, and then we flip that to an investment. That's a strategy we look at as well. So yeah, I'd say investment 60 to 70. 60 to 70 grand. 60 to 70 and first time buyer again, not the preferred strategy, but on certain occasions, I'd say $40,000. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And how much how much should that person, it's like, oh yeah, I'm saving X amount per month? That's me. Like how much are they, how much should they be saving per month? Skrilling away.

SPEAKER_00

Well, I guess what we do, we do a lot of modeling as well. So we would look at, we, you know, I always I'm a big believer in, you know, not a client today, but a client tomorrow. And what I mean by that is, you know, Jason, you can't do anything today. I think once people see that it's tangible, Chris has mapped out a plan, you know, we need $90,000 or $80,000. We're at $60,000. We can save, you know, $1,000 a week combined. Well, you know, we're we're 30 weeks off. Um, and often we will give them advice on, you know, how do we let's clear your bad debt? Let's clear that bloody credit card. Let's draining it, let's clear that car loan that's sitting at 15%, let's clear that bloody, you know, charge card or help debt or whatever it may be. So we look to get rid of those high interest rate loans. Yo, my savings are gonna go down. But if you do that, that it's that's gonna allow us to instead of saving a thousand dollars a week, we can save two thousand dollars a week. So we look at that as well. So I think you know, if it's tangible, we get it all the time, mate. So a client came back, Chris spoke to us 10 months ago.

SPEAKER_03

We're ready.

SPEAKER_00

We've got 90 grand.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

That plan you put us on, um, and the gratitude, like when you do eventually get them at home, mate. They you sometimes forget your why. Why did you get into reason? Why did you get into home loans and you know, trying to help people? That single mom or that couple that's got a kid, you put them on a savings plan, they get that property, they call you up, you've got a property. It's it's tears of joy. Yeah, and you forget sometimes that, you know, you know, there's a human element there, and that is my why. That's our why. That's you know, helping that person. I love it, eh?

SPEAKER_03

So for me, it's a text message, you know, six months after settlement, hey, you just got a bank valve, dumb, we're up 15%, 10%, whatever. And you're like, that's that's real, that's real life-changing money for them. It is. I I keep coming back to this because I am trying to, with my questions, paint the picture for people listening of what the experience would be like. For me, I think the the best thing that you do is the modeling, right? And that's when we're on the Zoom call with the clients A.

SPEAKER_00

Correct.

SPEAKER_03

Because I think that is so powerful when they sit there and they can that's that's always what's so difficult for a lot of people. They can't see it. And when it's modeled out in front of you, you do A, B, C, and then in the future you can get D, whatever, you know. Um, that is the power of talking to someone with experience that understands if you do this, this is where we can be soon. Yep. So I really like that, man. Uh, you said you mentioned something before. Uh, before I move on to the industry.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

I want to deal, I want to delve back into um your personal story for a minute. You said that when you turned 30 or in your early 30s, that's when you guys got serious about property investing. Correct. What happened? What changed that you're like, all right, cool. This is we're going all in on this.

SPEAKER_00

Correct. Yeah. I started earning money again.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Well, in my late 20s, I lived in London for two years. Uh actually worked for a mortgage-breaking company over there. So, but just decided, you know, obviously it's time to come home and got a BDM job. I think I mentioned that before, mate. Um, with a bank and started to earn bank, and you know, I think it was number one or two nationally, you know, in uh a major. I won't mention their names, but you know, you know, hard what do they say? Hard work. Um, hustle beats talent. Sorry. It's my favorite saying. Tommy Panos, shout out to you. So my first day of broken, I went to a broker course and he was up on stage and I stuck it on my bloody wall. Hustle beats talent when talent won't hustle. You know, I'm not the best presenter, I'm not the best, you know. Oh, you're right. I'm going, okay, today. Um, but there's people better than me, but they're not going to outwork me. Um, and made that was my motto when I started at the bank, BDMing. Yeah. That was, you know, I'm going to knock on so many brokers' doors. And, you know, the more you knock, you know, or LinkedIn or Instagram, people don't do the activities. Shit, it's quiet. But I used to send out a hundred LinkedIn invites. Now it's Instagram. 100, you know, I think we connected on LinkedIn a few years back again. So, and then you do that. 10 people say, Yep, you have five coffees, you get two relationships where you connect with people, and then you're getting a referral relationship. So, um, yeah, started earning money, mate. And then um, yeah, I always just believed in property. Yeah. So, you know, I didn't want to park my money in a bank. I didn't, you know, I wear $20 t-shirts, you know. People say, What do you drive, Chris? Gotta be a Porsche Ferrari, BMW. What are you driving? We've got two Mazdas. Yeah. Not one, but two. So that's just my, I'm not a watch man, you know, got my Apple Watch there. You know, my why is trying to set up my family. I didn't have a family at the time, but I want a choice in life. Yeah. You know, in my 40s, in my 50s, if I want to go on a nice holiday, if I want to go on a nice dinner, you know, nothing beats rewarding your parents. You know, I love taking them out to a nice dinner to say thank you. You know, your hard work, what you instilled in me is sort of where I am today. And mate, we just accumulated. So, you know, property one or two went up. Got your valuation, put out 100 grand equity, property three, probably the first three or four before I got into broking, it was more in our personal names. And then I got a lot more sort of educated around how do we structure my debt in the correct way. Yeah. You know, how do we map out property five, six, seven, eight, nine in the correct entities to, you know, continue moving forward and not be, you know, hamstrung by the bank saying no, you we won't lend you any more money.

SPEAKER_03

It's funny, I hear that's exactly what I did. I did the first four on the personal name just because I was excited, eager, and I could just see bang, bang, bang, bang. And then you're like, There's guys that have got like way more than me. What how are they doing it? Okay, cool. And then you start talking, and then you're like, oh, okay, that's how you're structuring it. And at the start, a dollar was meant a lot to me.

SPEAKER_00

Correct.

SPEAKER_03

But then when you start investing, you're like, it's no longer about how do I preserve this dollar, it's I've got this situation over here that I know how to grow dollars. Oh, okay, so I'm not trying to protect them anymore, I'm trying to grow them.

SPEAKER_00

Correct.

SPEAKER_03

And that shift for me, that's what I was like trying to find out from you. What was the shift in the 30s?

SPEAKER_00

But just I think just surrounding myself with people. Like I love reading education. I'm just on online forums. I just I hover, you know, knowledge is power. Yes. Like literally. So if I can name a policy, you know, who does this? One year's financials, 90%, I can get bang.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Clients want to deal with me. And it was the same with property. I was looking at people going, how do They grow their portfolios, you know. How do they match? Well, what's this trust stuff they talk about? And I picked my my poor bloody account and I was picking his brains, and you know, what's this? What's that? And so I just learnt, you ask questions, you surround yourself you know, with people that have actually done it. You start to obviously, you know, yeah, this this works, this actually works, and you know, we live and breathe that. And I'd say the last five or six years, yeah. Like I think I bought four properties in Melbourne the last sort of 15 months, sort of went all in down there. Um, you know, and again, Melbourne's a longer term play. Yeah. Um, but you know, we're not here for it's not it's not a flip flipping strategy, you know. This is something I want to pass on to my kids. Yeah, obviously, one of them has a disability, he may not work. I want something for him and his future, mate. And you know, that's that's that's why we do it.

SPEAKER_03

That mate, and that honestly, that's a big part of why um I've love reconnecting with you and kind of like getting around you because like that is you're doing it for not for yourself, you're doing it for your kids, you're doing it for your family, and you're going pretty hard, man. You're going pretty hard. But can you tell me that you've we could I reckon I could talk to you if H I've got so many questions here? What have you seen in the I'm gonna lump them together? Yep. Finance and buyers agent space. How much does it change? You've been in this industry now for 10 years. Yep. How much have you seen it change in the last five?

SPEAKER_00

Uh we'll start the BA space.

SPEAKER_03

We'll start there. We'll start there, mate.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah. Like I like I bought my first five or six properties um myself, you know, research. Uh, I had a unit in Perth. We flew over to Perth. That first unit I mentioned in Adelaide, we flew over to Bloody Adelaide. Like that's how I did it.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So you know, I'm on the I'm on the ground looking. I had no idea. You know, realestate.com.au, I think was my my best friend. So so buyers agents, um, my last five properties um have been through buyers agents. I am a big believer in a BA as long as they know what they're doing. So as long as they have experience. There's a lot of I guess it's a low entry point to get in, a bit similar to broking. Um, so you need to know who you're working with. And I always say to clients, you know, speak to Jason and the team. You know, Jason's got 10, 15 years experience in this space. Yeah. There is a role for buyers agents. Um, so that's one part.

SPEAKER_03

So have you seen it change the property landscape or even like just the land, the industry in general, like for broking?

SPEAKER_00

Uh, I mean, for broking, it's been good. Like, you know, we've always been investor-friendly. So, you know, we've obviously teamed up with yourself and a couple other BAs that specialise in certain areas of markets, and you know, it's been a really good sort of business relationship and cross-referral relationship as well, mate. We obviously send a lot of our clients to BAs as well. I believe in it. Yeah. If I'm doing it, if I'm getting Jason to buy my properties, Mr. Client, you know, why aren't you? So that's been big. Um, you know, I guess there was a recent case we won't mention their name with a big buyers agent that went into liquidation. So that was, you know, I think that was a one-off, you know. I think those big, big, big buyers agents, nothing wrong with them, but I do question do they still have the customer focus at heart? They say they do, but when they're doing 50, 100 deals a month, you know, is it more just a sale? Or is it, Jason, I understand your family, I know your kids' names, I know your strategy, I know what we want to map out over the next five years. Is it that personalized service? That's probably the biggest thing. Um, education as well. You know, I think BAs have been really good in sort of pioneers to a certain degree with giving information on social media. So, so that's one part of it.

SPEAKER_03

I agree, man. Like the the my feed is just full of that, like just BAs talking about. And it's like, there's like a lot of these BAs, uh, some of them argue with each other, but it's like when you strip back what they're talking about, they're talking about the same thing. They are and and the the data is pretty much the same, you know. You you want to be buying in areas that have got you know of constricting supply, increased demand, like the fundamentals, the fundamentals, you can't argue with that.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Um, some like other areas other than others, but like some people shit on Townsville, you know? Oh, Townsville, I've I've bought multiple properties from myself in Townsville, and it's done well, right? Some people shit on the unit markets, yeah. And like there's units that I've seen double, if not more, in the last few years. And I think what are we doing all this for? Yeah, it's capital growth.

SPEAKER_00

It's interesting, yeah. It's yeah, because I mean, like, but me, me personally, we bought two houses in Perth um two years ago. People said, Oh, you missed the birth market, but I was very strategic with my brief. I knew where I wanted to buy within a certain radius to the CBD. 750 a pop, um, worth 1.1. But happy days. So $700,000 capital growth. And that's with a modest valuation. That's not your old CBA valuation, that's a general valuation, market value, realestate.com, you know, timing the market, knowing certain areas, there's markets within the markets, and just because one BA, you know, does this strategy, yeah, not to say that strategy doesn't work.

SPEAKER_03

So I mean, I've got mates that are still buying stuff in Sydney, yeah, like primo stuff in Sydney, yeah, giving you a bit of a spruce up, selling it on, like just flipping stuff, and they're making money. Yeah, like a lot the there's so many ways to skin a cat in this game.

SPEAKER_01

Correct, you know?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, but what do you what do you resonate with the most, I think, is but uh similar to what you were talking about, like all of us buyers agents. I mean, we would do the same thing, to be honest, you know. We've got a couple of connections in some areas we're buying some properties for y'all. Who do you connect with the most? I feel like is more of the thing. Yeah, maybe I'm a bit crazy.

SPEAKER_00

No, no, I guess our philosophy is. I guess it's my belief system, you know. We like to work with people like yourself and one or two others that are more not boutique-ish, but you're not that sausage factory. You know, if they want to speak to Jason, the owner, call me back. You'll pick the phone up. Yeah, I try. So that's that's sort of my belief system. It works well. Our clients trust our advice. You know, who would you recommend, Chris? We'll speak to these guys. Um, so yeah, there's a role with BAs. Um, I think the market just quickly made on that point. I think, given all the budget changes, it's gonna get rid of the I won't say shit, but you know, the smaller players. And it's like that in my world as well. The guys that aren't you won't say shit, but you'll imply. But I'll fight uh but you know what I mean. The smaller players that don't have a customer base, they're not relationship focused, they don't have you know relationships with um brokers and the like, you know, they're the ones I think over the next 12, 18 month period that are gonna sort of probably leave the market. Same as real estate. Um that's my philosophy. So I think once, who knows if we get a new government, but I think once sentiment picks up 12, 18 months fine, there's gonna be an opportunity for the established players to grow even more. I think so too.

SPEAKER_03

Before we wrap, I just want to ask you what are some of the give me one, give me two, give me three challenges, things that your clients are coming to you every day, every week, asking you, can you give me some guidance? Can you give me some advice? What should I do?

SPEAKER_00

Yes, I mean, on my in my world quickly, I mean, I say to my guys, my junior guys, you know, they've never had it easier in terms of you know the amount of technology now. You know, there's a a um a platform called Quickly that basically does all the serviceability, all the policies with all the different banks. Like we never had that, you know, we were going through paper and going through PDFs, trying to find which bank does this. And so in terms of speed to market and getting a result out to clients, it's never been easier. Compliance in our world, you know, it's tenfold now. So, and that's good because it gets rid of the you know, SHIT. Uh maybe I need shirts made up. Um, in terms of customers, biggest thing, I mean, they're more educated. The clients are more educated, they're more educated, and I think that's all the social media, and you know, and I think also um respectfully, a lot of clients that work with BAs come to us and said, My BA needs this structure and it needs to be done that way. And I'm like, Well, no, it should be done this way, and you know, we're the experts in finance. Yeah, can you unpack that quickly?

SPEAKER_03

Because that that is, I was hoping you were gonna get there. Yeah, that's probably one of the biggest ones.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Of I think you can't paint everyone with the same brush. No, but a property investor who is on, let's say, 200 plus, yeah. They got 150 grand cash and they want to start building a property portfolio. Yeah, what do they do? How should they structure that?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah. Well, previously it's it's changed a little bit. So like we used to look at, you know, obviously high income tax owner. Is there a way we can negative gear some of that, you know, taxable income to start with? No, we're we're not all we're not for negative geared properties. We're not talking new builds, but yeah, you know, when you take it into account obviously the rent and expenses associated with the property, you know, there is a shortfall in the current higher interest rate environment. So we used to map it out that way. Um, that particular scenario, mate, 150k, you'd be saying LMI, use LMI, lenders mortgage insurance. Oh, I don't want to pay it. Look at it as a vehicle that's gonna help you create wealth.

SPEAKER_03

Are they buying it in their personal name? Are they buying in a company? Are they buying in a trust? Well, how they buying this?

SPEAKER_00

Day one, I'll be going trust now. Yeah, you know, we've done some modeling. I'm not an accountant, seek advice, company versus trust. Company, you your money's caught up in the company, the company tax rate is slightly lower. But if you ever were to pull out for another project, you would then pay a higher tax rate. So I still think I've done some modeling with an actual accountant. I've got a calculator which we can run through clients with. Nice. Trust still comes in slightly ahead. Nice. So I would be looking almost immediately. There's no point buying property in your personal names anymore unless there's a land tax sort of play. Um, you know, let's build a portfolio from day one with a trust. But I guess, yeah, back on the just quickly, mate, on the advice around buyers agents, you know, we used to have clients that had three, four hundred thousand in the BA, inexperienced, own very little property themselves. You know, let's just put that at 90%, pay mortgage insurance. These guys have capital, these guys have equity. Why don't we get them on a lower rate, avoid mortgage insurance to start with? We're the experts in finance, and then we've always got the you know the lever to pull better equity out later. And it was always, yeah, we used to have arguments all the time with a certain BA. We no longer work with them. Um, you know, you stick to your lane, you give advice on property. We are the experts in you know, in terms of finance.

SPEAKER_03

I I think the I can already hear the chat from the BA, you know, but I I some people want to go hard, right? And I think you you can and you should if you want to. Correct. But the sequence of how you go hard is very, very important. And I think I tried to go hard early on and with inexperience for my own deals, yeah. I was just like bang, bang, bang, I could get a loan quickly in my personal name, and that's what I did. And that was good because it kind of got me on the path. But if you've got good guidance from people who've got been there, done that experience, I'm now unraveling the shit that I done in my personal name to try and keep building my portfolio now.

SPEAKER_00

But we've had clients do that. Yeah, like I always say to you, like all our clients, you know, the key in all of this, we still need the borrowing capacity in the future to pull out equity, and we still need the borrowing capacity to buy another property.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

I don't care if your property you bought it for a million bucks, it's worth five million bucks. If you don't have the borrowing capacity, so if you don't have the right plan and strategy in place, it could be worth 10 million bucks. You can't get the equity out, you can't keep moving forward. So we've had actually had a couple of clients, probably not ideal, but they came to us too late. Yeah, four or five, six properties in their personal round. They're actually unraveling and setting up trust, paying full market stamp duty to get it back into a company or trust entity, yeah, to then obviously allow us to potentially, you know, protect that borrowing power for future purchases. Uh when you say expensive.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, when you say company or trust entity, like the bro, I feel like we could do another episode just on all of this stuff, right? Um maybe I won't go into that because there's there's so much depth on it. Like you said that, we'll do it again, and I understand what you're saying, yes, but it's like for the mum and dad for the mum and dad that there's this a lot of context, and we we talk strategy and structuring, yes, and then there's like a thousand bullet points underneath that that is not applicable to everyone. Correct. It's like, okay, that's applicable for this person, that's not for this. And it's how do you get to its experience and context from seeing hundreds of property investors go like that applies to you, that doesn't apply to you, you should do that, you shouldn't do that. Yeah, and you hear from these flint fluencers? What are they?

SPEAKER_00

Who they call them finfluencers. I guess people online they're not qualified to give tax advice, they're not qualified to give mortgage advice or credit advice. Yeah, oh, I saw so-and-so do it. So everyone's circumstances are different. So, you know, like me personally, I've settled over two billion dollars, you know, worth of lending. I think for the business around three and a half billion, we've probably helped over 1,500 clients, you know. We've seen most scenarios. So, you know, listen to your team of experts, yeah, i.e., the qualified broker, the qualified accountant, the qualified financial advisor if you need it, the qualified B as BA as well. Um, and you know, we can tailor, we'll map out a plan, tailor to your situation.

SPEAKER_03

It needs to be a cohesive team, right? And each each team member needs to respect the strengths. I mean, I used to play a bit of soccer, yeah. I'm by no means a striker, bro. You put the ball in front of me and I need some time. But I got a bit of dog about me. You put me center back and I'll just charge, knock over people, stop balls, whatever.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

That's my place. The striker's not coming back, trying to stop, trying to stop people. Yes. And I'm not trying to get up there and score goals.

SPEAKER_01

Yep.

SPEAKER_03

But um, any more challenges? Anything else you want to kind of share with us before we wrap?

SPEAKER_00

Uh, I don't, I think it's it's tricky times. I mean, when policy, government change poly, like you map out strategies on current tax rates, current, you know, um, tax benefits and advantages and different entities and stuff like that. And when it's a bit of a, I'll call it a rug pull, um, you know, you need more so than ever. Just I think the next 12, 18 months gotta be a little bit rocky in terms of, you know, you've got to surround yourself with the right people, which we keep harping on as well. So um, but I think longer term, you still need to look at the fundamentals with property.

unknown

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_00

They're building about 130,000 homes a year, they're still bringing half a million people into the country each and every year. It's supply and demand. Are you holding this property for two years or are we holding this for 10 years? Yeah. Is the property going to be worth more in 10 years? Yes. The right asset, the right area, the right location, which you guys do more than two years. So look at it long term. The strategy remains the same. You know, we had COVID, we had global financial crisis, we had, you know, there's always ups and downs. Interest rates, interest rates go up, interest rates go down. So just forget all the noise. Work with your team of professionals, look at that 10-year horizon. Will it be worth more then than today?

SPEAKER_03

But that's that's like when you ask yourself that question, yeah, and sometimes people say that to me as well. It's like, um, are you gonna be better off from doing this? Yeah, yes. If you are you gonna be worse off from doing this? That's a very binary question. Yes, but it's sometimes it clears things up. Are there going to be struggles in both the yes and the no?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Fuck, there is. So what do you do?

SPEAKER_00

Correct.

SPEAKER_03

You may as well do something to get you better off.

SPEAKER_00

Correct. Yeah. And just finally, mate, I mean, I always say to clients, we will show you how to invest responsibly. So it's all good to say, you know, your borrowing capacity is a million dollars, but we will show you how to obviously, you know, build in buffers, any needed cash flow, how can we sort of navigate that? Um, and you know, over the next two year period, what do we need to do to sort of navigate the changing landscape as well? So, yes, invest, but do it responsibly. Um, that's what we do.

SPEAKER_03

Love it. Chris Raymond, thank you so much from coming out. Um, Moves to Momentum Podcast, man. You you've settled billions of dollars in loans. So much experience, you've got personal experience as well. And then most thing, the thing I respect about you the most, Family Man, you've got two kids that you're doing it all for. Thank you for coming in.

SPEAKER_00

Brilliant, man. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03

Thanks so much for listening to the Moves to Momentum podcast. If you got any value out of this episode, please give us a like or subscribe. Or if you think this is relevant to anyone of your friends or family, please flick it to them so they can have a listen.