The Palsy Podcast
To mark Cerebral Palsy Awareness Month, Award Winning Screenwriter and Playwright Ciaran Fitzgerald interviews interesting people who have Cerebral Palsy, hearing their stories of the joys, triumphs and tribulations of living with Cerebral Palsy
The Palsy Podcast
The Palsy Podcast - Episode 25 - Mark Phillips
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Ciaran is joined on this episode of the Palsy Podcast by Mark Phillips. Mark is the Fan Engagement and Enquiry Officer for Level Playing Field. LPF ensure better access for disabled sports fans by working together with clubs and DSAs. Mark studied law at Aberystwyth University, before starting his career in football. Mark talks about his experiences and how to better engage disabled fans in football.
Swansea City Disabled Supporters Association
Hello and welcome to the Palsy Podcast with me here in the show. I'm a playwright, screenwriter, and podcaster from South Wales. And seeing as Marky is Celsy Awareness Month to market, I've decided to interview interesting people who have Silver Palsy from Wales and beyond every day in March. If you like this episode, please stay tuned for Paul throughout the month and like and share. Now enjoy this episode of the Palsy Podcast. Hello and welcome to the Palsy Podcast and me, Kieran, it's Gerald. Welcome to episode 25 of the Palsy Podcast. We're into the last week of the pod, and I can't believe I've kept up with it. It's still going. So if you're new to the podcast, the Palsy Podcast is a daily podcast that I'm doing too much because March is sub Palsy awareness months. And I'm talking to interesting people every day throughout March who's sharing their experiences of Sub Palsy. And today I'm very happy to be joined by my friend Mark Phillips. Hi Mark, how are you doing, mate?
SPEAKER_00Hi doing, Kira. Nice to talk to you on this uh Monday morning.
SPEAKER_01Thank you for doing that. I know you're very busy, man, from reading up about years again writing these questions. But yeah, maybe to kick off just a little introduction to yourself, who you are.
SPEAKER_00And yeah, no problem. My name is Mark Phillips, and I'm uh just somebody from West Wales with CP. I've never never actually heard you call me interesting before, so that's quite nice. That's a little bonus for me.
SPEAKER_01Well, we've got to sell the podcast. People have got to listen to it. So if we give them a false promise at the start, you know, maybe they'll stick around.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, hopefully, tr hopefully trading standards aren't knocking about for this podcast because uh, you know, two Welshmen on a pod they can easily get sidetracked, as you know. Um, as I said to you over the weekend, I think uh I can't really I struggle to name uh as many people with CP in my head, but you seem to know everybody with CP. So you're busting myths all over the place.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yes, no, Mark, what's been brilliant about this is the amount of people who've reached out saying, Oh, I'd be interested in coming on, can I shame a dough? I've had a really good response from uh I don't know if you call it the CP community, but people seem to really get behind it, and I'm just that people have, you know, it's been a really good experience for me.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's really good because I often say that I know there are some sections of the disabled community that would say it's not our job to educate everybody about disability. Um, I kind of have had the mindset over the years that if I'd been willing to share my story and share my experiences, it's opened up a lot of doors for me, um, and maybe even put some ramps down occasionally as well, in terms of uh getting my wheelchair into places and and it shows that willingness for people to try and understand more as well, and again uh busts some myths that uh because I think everyone assumes that uh because you have a disability, you have a hotline to every other disabled person within a 10 mile radius, but uh it's well I I see I seem to be uh disproving that myth.
SPEAKER_01I know, I'm I'm very impressed. Uh to kick off, Mark, I want to open up with what upset in most of these with like what was your experience growing up as a kid with CP?
SPEAKER_00Um it it's very interesting. I um it's funny that this is March, obviously, it's it's my birthday month, and it's been your birthday, so I should actually have started by saying happy birthday. Thank you, Mike. I tend to use these uh this month as a like a period of reflection a lot in terms of how I take stock because I don't tend to do that um enough in my life because I'm so busy, and then it's uh a case of oh yeah, actually, I've done quite a lot and achieved quite a lot. So growing up with CP was interesting. Um, I tend to uh think that I was the only person with CP that I knew, as as this podcast has proven, and this month has proven there's that that tons of people with CP about the place, which is good. As I always say, it is the sexiest of all the palsies.
SPEAKER_01Um you still that from I will not divulge it here.
SPEAKER_00So exactly, it's it's imitation is a serious form of flattery. So going up was very interesting. Um, I'm very fortunate that I have or I have a stable base around me in terms of my family and having two older brothers who were disabled at the time and have since become disabled, so that's been interesting for them. But they were very good in sort of setting me up and toughening me up as well. Uh, because um they in my family, you have to be able to be self-deprecating. It's a big part of who I am in terms of my humour. I think you know that in our conversations, um, and they're probably responsible for that. Because if you can't take the mick out of yourself in my uh house growing up, you were really gonna struggle. So uh I'll give my brothers a lot of credit for that. Uh, and and my dad as well. They've sort of really uh helped shape that character.
SPEAKER_01And and were you treated any differently? Like, were you treated the same as your brothers by your parents?
SPEAKER_00So essentially, my my parents will always say they they never wrapped me in cottonwood, it was just throw a mark out there, see what happens. Um you know, they would try and sort of steer me from things if I was trying to suit for the stars too much on things and just say, All right, can could you really do that? But a lot of my character growing up was essentially I wanted to prove people wrong. So a lot of my successes was me going, I will do that, and even if it was tough. Um, and you know, my mum would my mum would occasionally turn around and be like, I told you it was gonna be tough, and I'd be like, I know, but I needed to find that out for myself for a lot of things.
SPEAKER_01Um I think that's an attitude that I certainly have, and a lot of other people with CGP have trying to prove people wrong, and to an extent it's good, but when you're trying to do it all the time, it can be it takes a lot of energy, doesn't it?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I'd say with wisdom, I'm trying to refine that part of my character slightly more because it becomes it's becoming the case now where I'm not proving other people wrong, I'm trying to prove myself wrong. Um, you know, I was really lucky, and um I've listened to other uh podcasts you've done throughout the month. Yeah, I know you spoke to to Smithy, David Smith, uh it's in a roundabout way. Um I he's helped me a lot in my life in terms of my later life and my career through his experiences, but I found it quite funny that he talked about it being fashionable to have uh surgery in the uh 90s, and that I'm one of those kids who ended up having that big surgery. So a big chunk of my childhood was having uh extensive operations to make sure that I wasn't solely reliant on the chair.
SPEAKER_01It might be worth imagining as finding how your CPA affects you.
SPEAKER_00Okay, yeah, yeah, that's that's a good point. Uh so growing up, obviously, I was uh predominantly on my knees a lot, um, which is where my football obsess obsession comes in. Um I was happiest growing up, I think, when I was out in the back garden and my brothers and my fathers were taking penalties against me, and I was a goalkeeper, so obsessed with that growing up. Um, and then um obviously I can shuffle about a bit on my feet, um, but predominantly day-to-day now use an electric feature. But that's um through lifestyle choices, which I'm sure we'll touch on later on. Um but essentially had the surgery when I was about 11 years old. Um, but they told me because of the surgery I couldn't be checking myself about on my knees and stuff and potentially injured or doing any damage. Um, so that was a big part of my primary school era where I think towards the uh sort of end of my SATS, I was in well, sort of year five-ish, then having surgery. Um, but it was um a challenging time because then I had to um stop playing football, which I found really difficult. But again, everything in my life tends to be like a full circle thing, so there are things that I will do, I'll end up circling back to at some point in my life. So I um I obviously stopped playing football then, and my physiotherapist, his son, was a Bernardo's worker, and he ended up being appointed my Bernardo's worker, and he happened to be a fanatic Swansa City fan. So, as part of his activities, he decided to take me to the Vetch field, um, and then I ended up going there and becoming a Swans fan, and the rest is history.
SPEAKER_01So that's how you started going.
SPEAKER_00So I assume that you went with like would you hope I'm not interested, or was he not interested in the unfortunately, unfortunately for him, he's had to become interested. Um, so obviously, growing up, my again, I probably should have touched on this a bit sooner. My uh father was a junior football coach, so he ran the locals um side in the village that I live in, which is St. Clairs. Um, he did all the junior football. So a lot of the um sort of young men that have come through this village tend to know my old man and and have a lot of respect for him because of him being the football coach. I do um take the Mickey of him and let him know that he has uh coach more successful rugby players than he has footballers, uh, just because of the geography of where we are in this part of the world. Uh he enjoys that. Um, but yeah, I I'm probably the son, ironically, being physically disabled, that decided to take football and literally run with it everywhere I could. Yeah. Um, so yeah, so I ended up going up going to Swansea on a regular basis. He used to take me to the vetch quite quite a bit, not as much as I would have liked to, obviously, being that young. Um, but then ended up obviously when they moved to the new stadium getting a season ticket in 2005 and going back and forth there. Again, it was a slightly more of a challenge, I think, for him to go week in, week out. Uh, but I was fortunate enough that when I went away to university, which I know we'll touch on, my um my dad foolishly made a bet with me that season because he knew I was coming home. And he said, if if Swansea get promoted, I'd buy you a season ticket. Uh unfortunately for him, we got promoted, so he had to buy me a season ticket, and God bless my mum, she uh she was there in the queue that was right around the stadium. I think we got one of the last wheelchair user spaces in the stadium.
SPEAKER_01Uh I bet you were breaking it when Redding made it three, too.
SPEAKER_00I was, I was actually. Um, and I I gave one of my mates a lot of flack because there's an unwritten rule in my friendship circle that when the swans are playing, you do not message me, you do not say, Oh, this is going well, because it's very sort of Welsh and very pessimist of me to assume that the world will will crumble in. So one of the boys actually texts me a half time of that game because I actually didn't go. This is a this is a funny story. You didn't go. Uh, I didn't go to the playoff final, I tried, um, and this is something I will always mention to everyone I speak to at the club. That time the club had a premium rate phone line, uh, and to get accessibility tickets, you had to phone that line to get through. Naturally, because we got through to the playoff final, regardless of whether you had a disability or not, everybody was phoning that phone line. So I tried every which way possible. I went through the main reception line, I went through the ticket office line, I went through the catering line, I think, at one point, and didn't actually manage to get through to speak to anybody to sort my tickets out. And I do remember somebody had a bus locally, and they were like, We'll keep you a space if you can get a ticket. And my friend Richard, who obviously took me to my first game where I referenced earlier, he was going with his brother, and he was like, Can you get a ticket? Can you get up there? And I said, Look, don't worry about me, sort your tickets out, I'll sort myself out. I ended up, um I ended up unfortunately missing out on that and spending£14, I think, or£15 uh on phone charges, not getting a ticket. Luckily, the club have since uh changed that policy and there is no premium rate phone lines, and like um and if a club does operate a premium premium rate phone line, I'd say think again and also have a designated accessibility line that would be really helpful. That's me with my work hat on.
SPEAKER_01Um, but if there are any football clubs listening, please take my yeah, yeah, exactly. So I'm gonna go back a little bit to to school. Um, first medium education, like me, mainstream education. What was your experience at school like?
SPEAKER_00Uh school is interesting. I've got like a really cool group of friends now that I went to primary school with, that I'm still friends with now, um, still very close with. I was never really treated differently in that school. I was always with everybody else. I used to even have um the group of friends of mine playing football on their knees with me as well. Um, I'm sure I've caused a lot of injuries to that over the years. Um, so in primary school it wasn't really any different. The only time I really started noticing it being different was when you go through that awkward teenage phase, and I'm in secondary school, you're trying to sort of find out who you are as a person and uh trying to deal with everything else that's going on as well. And I'm also I was also coming off the back of surgery and recovery, so I was trying to make sure I was as active as possible and was walking a lot and stuff as well, so it was interesting, but I still enjoyed it.
SPEAKER_01Did you miss a lot of school because of those surgeries that you had?
SPEAKER_00Uh so I missed a lot of primary school, and then I would have to so it was intense physio, so we'd have to do twice a day physio, and also uh in secondary school, then I think on a Wednesday I'd go out to hydrotherapy. Um, early days sort of post-surgery, it was um, I think I'd have a Wednesday off, and I'd literally go in, have physio in the morning, hydrotherapy pool, then home. Um, and then later in secondary school, it would be into hydrotherapy in Glengwilly Hospital, uh, do a bit of that, go back to school, and then go home. So that was uh that was fun. But then it's funny because you you look at Smithy, and Smithy's spoken about his experiences to school and his ability to do uh disabled sport and stuff. I felt like being where we are, sort of in in West Wales, there wasn't that many uh disability sports available to me at the time or open to me where I could do that in terms of uh a P P session. So a lot of my P sessions were physiotherapy or like trying to get myself active, particularly in primary school, secondary school, it wasn't so much. I can't even remember what I did when there was PE on in secondary school, but they weren't the the school weren't able to make P accessible uh no, I it was never really a discussion, so I don't know whether that's a fault on me or whether that's a fault on the school. Um but it's not something that I sort of came up. I've done uh bits of this disability sports through the year. I did a bit of archery, and then I did um archery in primary school for a little bit. Um still got a bow somewhere that I could probably use. Um, but there was like fleeting moments of of disability sports, so uh yeah.
SPEAKER_01And what did you enjoy in school? What were you good at?
SPEAKER_00Uh I really enjoyed history, funny enough. Uh I uh it's something I've always really enjoyed again, reflecting on stuff that we've learned in the past, I think is really important. Uh really enjoyed history and got a few good opportunities in there. I went to America when I was in sec uh when I was in sixth form with uh school as well because they do a regular America trip, so that was fun.
SPEAKER_01What was that experience like?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, insane, insane. Uh that it was just really, really good, really interesting. Um, didn't do the whole tube stuff. I I had sort of dispensation to use taxis when everyone else had to jump on the tube, but that was good. So we did Washington, um, we did New York, and I think in between like Philadelphia as well. So that was that was fun. Um interestingly, and again, this goes back to full circle moments. We ended up going to uh Broad Broadway, we watched Chicago, but I remember turning up at the box office and my teacher being really upset, and I was thinking, what's going on here? And he'd forgotten to book accessible tickets for me. Oh no, but the legislation in America is slightly different, so um essentially venues have to provide seating. So if I if you rock up in a wheelchair or have other access requirements, the venues need to accommodate you somehow. I didn't know that at the time. I didn't know that that's a thing in America. I also subsequently found that out later on when I was panicking about tickets in Dallas, and some woman came up to me and was like, You don't need to get accessible tickets, you can just get standard tickets and then they'll sort you out. I still wouldn't like to put that pressure on a venue every time, especially in this country.
SPEAKER_01But uh does that mean that I don't want to attempt faith because there's a big game on Thursday? It would be but if we qualify that getting accessible tickets will be easier?
SPEAKER_00Uh I'm gonna say it's probably gonna be a lot more difficult. Um, there are some challenges in the minute in terms of ticketing. I believe there are discussions ongoing because at the minute the accessible seating is in category one and category two, which are the highest categories, uh, which means it becomes more expensive for disabled supporters and spectators going across the World Cup. Um, which which, you know, fingers crossed, I've got a difficult decision to make come come next Monday, uh well, next Tuesday, even when we've when we know what the results are. Uh fingers crossed we can get through Thursday. As you said, we don't want to tempt a bait. Um but yeah, there are there is challenges across the board there, but yeah, it's interesting.
SPEAKER_01It hasn't taken us long to talk about what Marco no, I know.
SPEAKER_00I I'll always circle back tricky, it's fine.
SPEAKER_01Um so what how did you decide to study law at Aberstraft? Did was the dream like to be a solicitor to be a I don't think so.
SPEAKER_00I don't the hand on hand, I I don't think so. The irony is key, I I probably wanted to go and look for a career in the media. Um so sort of do similarly your probably your career path. Um but my my parents were adamant that they wanted me to do a degree that um I could do something with. Obviously, law was I've been quite good at blagging throughout my education. I I wouldn't say I'm intelligent, I'm very good at making myself look intelligent, but e2. Uh so I ended up doing uh law at A level in in Welsh in uh a school model that was really interesting. Um, and then progressed on to ABARES with I think I've told you before, one of my biggest regrets with my degree in ABBA is not doing my degrees with a medium of Welsh.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, did you have the opportunity to do that?
SPEAKER_00I could have, and what I've subsequently worked out in my head was uh it might not have reflected in my grades, but effectively I would have been paying the same price as everybody else, uh, but having near enough one-to-one tutoring at the time because there wouldn't have been many people on the course doing this with a medium of Welsh.
SPEAKER_01So, you know, um that would have been really beneficial.
SPEAKER_00Would have been really beneficial, yes. I still enjoyed it and still, you know, had a good degree, and then got to the end of the degree, and my parents were like, Okay, what are you gonna do now? So I went on to do my legal practice course, and I did sort of try and look to pursue a career in law. Um, but I feel like law is a career where you've got to basically live and breathe it because it's so competitive and so difficult to get a training contract and move on to the next step. And the more I thought about it, the more I thought my health and my challenges with obviously the CP on top of that, and managing my fatigue and everything else would have been too difficult to pursue the career in law.
SPEAKER_01And there's also the added would there have been barriers for it as a disabled person going into a career in law.
SPEAKER_00I was gonna say that though. That the one of the anxieties that sort of floated around in my head about going into law would have been, you know, the physical access into some of the courts and stuff. It's it's ironically not geared up for that. Even some solicitors' firms. Um, my a very good friend of mine got a very good training contract straight out of our uh legal practice course. So I used to say to him all the time, um, could I uh could I go and visit them in the office? He said, The irony is I'd probably be able to get to one part of their offices, the rest of the offices would have been totally inevitable. Accessible to me. Um, and to be fair, I think he was uh that was actually genuine. There wasn't any issues there, even though at one point in the lecture I inadvertently um put my elbow on the control of my electric wheelchair and pinned him up against the wall. But he's fine, he was fine, he's he was not injured afterwards. Uh he survived and he's very successful uh in his career. But uh that was something that always stuck with me.
SPEAKER_01And going back to ABBA, ABBA isn't the flattest place in the world. So how did you find that as a disabled person with limited mobility wheelchair is uh again?
SPEAKER_00It goes back to when I uh when I said I like to Google wrong. So essentially, the one of the reasons why I chose Abarus with this because uh the aforementioned Richard, who is the person that took me to the Swans game, he went to Abarus to TV growing up, and he always said that how good that was. So I was like, oh, I'd like to go there. So I didn't really consider access or the geography of the place, and then everyone in my year when I left secondary school was going to Cardiff pretty much. The majority of the year went to Cardiff, and I thought I don't want to go somewhere where I'm gonna bum into everybody else. So I chose ABBA and I chose Swansea as an option. The irony was Swansea at the time didn't have any accessible accommodation there, so I went for my open day. They said we can show you our standard rooms and see how you get how you get on. Went into the standard room, could barely get the chair through the door, so it became a decision of I'll go to Aboriginal. Um obviously, I was walking a lot more uh pre-university, uh, and then because of the geography of ABBA, it's one big hill essentially. I didn't have the opportunities to keep my uh physical activity up, uh, and also going out three or four nights a week probably didn't help that either. Um and then the funny thing about ABBA as well is back then to live the life of a student, there wasn't uh wheelchair accessible taxis available past probably 10am. Uh sorry, 10 p.m. Get my timings right. Um uh so it meant that I would have to basically drive myself home in my electric wheelchair. Now, as a law student, there's probably some legalities there around me being being able to do that, but it did lead to some funny stories, and uh stories of me uh ended up because of weather and because of pavements and gradients ended up in hedges and having having to get people to drag me out.
SPEAKER_01Uh maybe you didn't end up in the sea, Mark.
SPEAKER_00That's very true. That is very true. That would have been very dangerous for me and for everybody else. But no, I loved Aberist with it was a big challenge accessibility right. I did experience some more sort of um ableist stuff when I was there. Uh there was essentially two clubs in Albarist at the time. I won't name them, but people will know who they are. Uh, one is sort of centrally the other would have been out towards the sea. Uh so the one that I can I can name the other one because it's a good one. Even though I know so so obviously everyone knows about peer pressure. Um, so peer pressure, you would think, was the most inaccessible of the two. In actual fact, the staff there were always amazing with me. And when I was there the first couple of years, there wasn't a lift. So, what they would generally do is I would turn up the door, they would corral like six or seven bouncers, and they'd carry me into peer pressure, like it was Caesar returning back to uh back to Rome. So uh that was always a nice little entrance for me. Uh and they always looked out for me to the point where if I was on a night out uh and it was busy in a bar and they weren't working, they would still move people out of my way. So I've got a lot of respect for the guys there, they were really good to me. Um and but then there was other pubs and bars where I'd go in and I remember distinctly someone saying to me, You're not allowed on the dance floor. And I said, Why? And they said, It's a health and safety hazard for you to be on there. I was like, Are you serious? So I I kind of vetoed that bar for a for a long time. I don't think I ever went in there. Uh well, I think I probably went in there twice, but it'd be really awkward when you were with a group and they were like, Yeah, let's go to this bar, and I'd be like, don't really want to. And the irony with that bar is there was a tiny step to get in. They would refuse to to get like help me in, so I'd have to corral people from like the uh the queue to help me bump up the chair, and there was a couple of other bars like that in Aber. I distinctly remember one where uh, again, for health and safety reasons, the bouncers wouldn't lift me in. Uh, but I'd get people to lift me into the bar, and I remember being one of the last ones out of that bar at that time. Uh, and the the uh bouncer was going to me, um, are you gonna have to go now? And I was like, Okay, are you gonna sort of help me get out with the chair? And the guy was like, Oh, we can't do that. I was like, Well, we've got two options you either help me get out or I'm sleeping here tonight. Uh eventually I got out. But again, I think there's ways and means of approaching that conversation. I try not to be over confrontational, I also try and try and be a bit I almost I almost apologize uh for it, even though I shouldn't have to. But I'm almost like, well, I'm sorry for being a pain.
SPEAKER_01But I I had conversations on your people, and like if you've experienced that kind of ableism on the night out, you kind of almost expect it's going to happen. Was that a thing with you?
SPEAKER_00Like when you went out, you were like, Oh, we're probably gonna come up against some kind of Yeah, well, it's it's funny because I was thinking about this earlier about um the use of language and terminology and how again, because of how I was brought up with my brothers and my dad and stuff, I don't tend to get offended easily, but what I do what does upset me is if friends I'm with who are potentially a non-disabled get upset by language or terminology used against me. So that's that's when I'm like, okay, now this is an issue because other people have been annoyed by it. Um, I I'll say this, I thought about this earlier. What I find really funny is when I used to go out a lot, especially if my brothers were in the bar. Um, my brother, my eldest brother Rob would do this a lot. I'd see him scan people if people were coming up to me, so he'd be scanning, and I'd be checking what they were saying, but also checking for my reaction. So um so if he felt like he would need to step in, so I'd have to sort of give him a look and say, no, no, it's okay, I've got this. Um, and he still probably does that to this day, which is quite nice, quite funny. Um, I think both my brothers have a tendency to do that. They they give me the tough love and the abuse and stuff, and sometimes in front of people, they give me that as well, but they're very good at knowing when it's the time to step in and advocate for me, uh, which is quite nice.
SPEAKER_01And yeah, that's really important.
SPEAKER_00I think well actually I'm gonna I'm gonna embarrass him on this podcast because it'd be very funny. Um, because thinking back to sort of primary school, and and uh one of the reasons why I think you should take a lot of pride in what you're trying to do with this month's key is that there wasn't really that many role models for us growing up, or particularly for me growing up for people with CP. So I remember the in primary school, I was in the sort of same class as my middle brother, my brother Steve, and we had this exercise through because I distinctly remember it because of his reaction. And they said, You need to pick your hero, your hero, um, and who you look up to. So everyone's picking different celebrities. And at that time, I was like, I don't I don't really have a hero celebrity to look up to.
SPEAKER_01Can I pick Leon Britton again? Probably not.
SPEAKER_00Well, at that stage of my life, did I did I know who Leon Britton was? I don't know if I did. So um if if Britz is listening to the podcast, hi hi Britz, how are you doing? Um, but yeah, he's um definitely somebody that I've grown to look up to. Um much more now. Yeah, so yeah, so the the whole point of the exercise was to pick your hero. I couldn't think of one, but I was like, I don't know, I always looked up to my brothers, I've always taken little bits of their characters and personalities. I've got great admiration for how they deal with stuff. Now that probably stems from um, as a kid, I couldn't run away from from my problems. So if I was upset about something, my mum would have to sit me down and be like, What are you upset about? And then I had to talk it through. Whereas my brothers are both more um, they're deeper thinkers, they don't really tend to know, they don't really share their emotions. So I'm the annoying emotional one, okay, of the dynamic of the group. Uh and I remember saying, Okay, so I my hero is my brother, and everyone was like, Oh, that's so cute, that's amazing. My brother turns to me and he goes, You ever embarrass me like that again? I'm going to punch you. I always remember, always remember that reaction. So I love that I've said that publicly mouse is out there and it's gonna be documented and recorded, so it's gonna annoy it. So I'm I'm hoping next time I go over and see him in Holland, he's gonna punch me just for that comment.
SPEAKER_01But yeah, again, it's one of those Can you message me and let me know if if that happens.
SPEAKER_00I will do, I will do, I'll show you the bruiser. But yeah, like that's what I mean. That we didn't have people to look up to, or or we didn't have the I couldn't I couldn't name other people with CPP at the time. So I've tried over the years to again in all the jobs I've had and all in my whole career, I've tried to give back and use it as an opportunity to share my experiences. So I've I remember a friend of mine was helping a child out with CP in a primary school locally, and he said, I think it'd be really good if you could go and speak to him, so he's met somebody else with CP. But I tend to try and do that as well. Uh, if I get an opportunity to, I try and give back shifts.
SPEAKER_01That's really important. I agree, that's something that I'd like to do, that I'd like to do more of. But yeah, I and I remember as a kid seeing our friend Kara in Tracy Baker on TV, and that's the first time I thought, oh, because I wanted to be an actor at the time. I was like, oh I thought, oh, if she can have a career in in the radio and TV, why can't I? And why haven't I got Carla on you?
SPEAKER_00Anyway, um you've got the second best option. Well, well unfortunately, I don't think my GCC drama's gonna stretch for acting.
SPEAKER_01I mean but yeah, having a career in football, like when did you think it could be possible?
SPEAKER_00So it's really funny because we'll go back and we'll talk. So we mentioned about me picking the law degree because my parents wanted me to have that opportunity. I really struggled to find work after coming out of uni. So this idea that you could go to uni, get your degree, and then that would suddenly open doors for you. What I found as a disillusion person, it was really difficult to get opportunities because they would turn around and go, Well, you need experience. But a lot of the time in my summers throughout my whole life, so summers after GCC and stuff, I've had to be recovering from surgery. So the surgery I mentioned earlier, um, when I grew and when I went through puberty, um bones twisted and stuff moved out of place, so I had to have stuff redone. So I spent a lot of my time recovering and in hospitals. So me and my mother definitely have some hospital banter over the years because of all those experiences. Um, but it's been interesting in that sense. Um, but yeah, I one of the things that I found I couldn't I struggle to find opportunities in work, struggle, struggle to find get get my foot through the door anywhere. So I gave up on the the law idea and tried to look at different options. The irony is I ended up doing a lot more media stuff and a lot more Welsh media stuff than I've ever done before. So the first paid thing I got to do out of uni uh was uh a production for um our Roger Cymru uh through this production company. Um I did some bits around that and then I did a couple of other bits, and I remember talking to um Ald, Alec Glenn. Unfortunately, he's no longer with us, but um he was telling me all the time that he said your Welsh is better than you think it is, because I tend to find with Welsh speaking I can slip back into it quite easily, but it's then um getting the momentum going.
SPEAKER_01I do think it's a confidence language, so I ended up doing a lot more oh, you say it's about confidence, like and using it and the confidence to use it in social situations, but go on.
SPEAKER_00So he gave me a lot of confidence from that project in terms of um what I could do, in terms of maybe even doing more stuff with sort of around my disability and sharing my story. I did try and do a lot of that in uni where I would help the university with the evacuation uh policies and all that sort of stuff, and again putting myself up as the guinea pig to be like, should we try this or should we do that? Um so there was a lot of that. Um so I ended up doing doing that sort of stuff, um, and then the career in in football just happened. So um I I probably haven't touched on this and how I know Smithy, so I'm a failed Paralympian key. Um we were talking about this the other day, weren't we? Yes. So essentially back in 2020, because it was the search for Rio, I put myself forward for uh the Paralympic search or Paralympic IDE for um for butcher. So I I ended up being a member of Swansea Bocher Club Smithy, and it's because of Smithy and how he's managed to live his life independently with his adapted vehicle. That's the first time I came across that type of adapted vehicle. And what I found is growing up, nobody tells you what's available out there, it's through speaking to other people, so speaking to people like you, people like Smithy, that you get to know about these things, and then you suddenly go, Oh, actually, I could do that. So I ended up getting a vehicle grant funded. Uh so it's a fully accessible adapted WAV. Because before then, and after coming back from university, I actually stopped driving for two years because I realized I needed my wheelchair with me more and more, and I couldn't throw my wheelchair into the back of a Vauxhall Corsair even if I wanted to and drive it around. So I didn't feel confident. I wasn't advised properly, so I ended up just getting a basic WAV and thinking I could throw my old adaptations on it. Um, it didn't work out like that. I wasn't confident in it, and then I saw Smithy with this vehicle and thought, oh well, that's really good. So I wanted to sort of go down the Paralympic route to almost get re-established that fitness as well, so get that regular physiotherapy and that contact, but also have a career. So that was the option. Unfortunately, at the time there was only four classes in Bocha, so you had uh uh no, am I right? Or is it only six? Anyway, there was only a few classes.
SPEAKER_01If you're listening to this, leave a comment and let us know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can remember from talking to him, but I can't, so please let us know what the I should remember.
SPEAKER_00So there was less categories back then. So essentially I was a borderline BC2, I was a fairly decent player. Uh obviously did alright when I went up to Sheffield for the trials, but unfortunately, I was told effectively that because um my disability may not have been as bad as other people with CP in that category. If they took me forward to tournaments, essentially they'd always be challenging my ability to do that, um, or if I was the same level. But that's it that's a different sort of kettle of fish and a and probably a little bit of a political hot topic. I probably wouldn't touch on on this call, but essentially, from that, I had to make the decision then of okay, I need to go out and find work. So I did, I ended up being an independent living advisor first, and I was basically working from home advising uh this other people how to set up on direct payments and have a PA, which is something that I have lived, and that's how I was able to be supported in university. Yeah, um, so I it was kind of like it was again a full circle moment of okay, now I can help people get to this position. But during that time, and actually it's 14 years ago today, that the club Swansea City uh were thinking about putting together a DSA. So I went to the initial meeting. Is it excellent timing and not deliberate at all? Uh it's not deliberate at all. It's crazy, it's crazy how it landed on this day. Um, but so I ended up sort of being loosely involved at the beginning and then stepped away for a little bit. And I know and I'll mention on this podcast because everyone in Swansea will know it, Cap Dyer, obviously, and a couple of other individuals there ran with that and set up the DSA, and it's become very successful. Uh, but while I was working in that role, I decided I wanted to be a part of the DSA. So the meetings would be in the evenings, I'd be working from home. So what I would tend to do would be to drive up to Swansea on the on the day of the meeting, sort of midday-ish, have lunch in uh a restaurant nearby the stadium, and then work from there, and then go into the meeting and then leave. So I became sort of involved and quite sort of vocal. So I set up the social media and the um, I think I was doing the website for a little bit as well for that time. But there was also a period of time where I sat as chairman on the DSA, so I've had like a good um sort of understanding of all the stuff that was going on, and then um the club were recruiting because back in the Premier League they needed a uh designated disability access officer. Um, fortunately for me, I applied and I was successful. Uh so I it was like again for me that was a that was a dream job as a football obsessed kid, a Swansea City obsessed kid, to then be able to go. Actually, I know quite a lot about disability, but I will what did the role involve then?
SPEAKER_01What did what what did you have to do day today?
SPEAKER_00Cool, I can go into that. So, yeah, essentially what the role involved would be to sort of you are the link between fans and the club, very similar to the DSA role, but I'm also then lazy with the DSA, but then it's looking at accessible facilities out of the public club, looking at policies and procedures, and then trying to make them more accessible. And what I wanted to say, I sort of sort of talked myself up a little bit then before going into this. I tend to tell everyone I'm I'm I'm an expert on my CP and I'm not an expert on disability. I think that's the difficulty I think some people get. They assume that if they employ a disabled person in a role, they suddenly, by osmosis, become the um Google disability for that for that company. It doesn't quite work like that. I am learning more and more about different disabilities and different um challenges every day, which I really enjoy as part as part of my role now. But it's what I enjoyed at at the Swans as well. I was able to look at different barriers for different disabilities and go, okay, how do we get to that point where it's something I and I and something I always hit on with clubs now? Try not to focus on the end goal too much. Look at what steps in the journey you're gonna take. So try to um to walk before you run, which is ironic for me. Um eventually ended up walking at some point. So yeah, it was one of those things where I was looking to introduce facilities. I was fortunate enough while in my time there to to implement stuff to get the sensory room over the line and get that in there, yeah. Um, and sort of be the the beginning point for the BSL stuff that the club have now introduced.
SPEAKER_01I think that's been great below season also to have that well.
SPEAKER_00So that that came about from me being like, we need to introduce BSL, and then me doing a bit of a Google search and going, Oh, there's a deaf center, literally just around the corner from the from the stadium. So I reached out to them, and as you say, the rest is history. Um, due to my time in the club as well, I I wasn't just uh the disability access officer. Unfortunately, with relegation, that meant that I had to become one of the access officers that wears many hats, and I ended up going into the club safeguarding department and into player care, which is a which is a completely different sort of framework and mindset to go from because it's going from a one thing where I was quite comfortable in and then out of my comfort zone.
SPEAKER_01Um did you work with the players and then support them?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so it was about working with the players, but working with our in that existing framework with the with psychologists and with the other departments within the academy as well as the first team environment, and seeing how We can support players and give them avenues to report concerns and feel supported by the football club.
SPEAKER_01Um, which you do have to be careful not to slag out, say, for example, Jay Fulton on a Saturday, if you're gonna say I'm the vote.
SPEAKER_00In actual fact, it's funny you should bring up Jay. Jay is probably somebody that I've known for a really long time. I happen to be um the chair of the DSA, and this always sticks out in my mind. He may not remember it, but I do. Um, we were doing a QA event. I think he was there, Angel Rangel was there, um Adam King was there, and Stephen Kingsley, so that cohort of people, yeah. Um, and the he uh Jay came up to me and shook my hand, which kind of caught me off guard. You know, it probably shows his age at the time because he was still quite young, and uh probably the reason why I was uh I was off guard because I probably didn't realize that oh yeah, chairman's quite important at the time. So I I remember shaking his hand and then obviously then going on to work for the club. It was quite nice, yeah. But it's also something I I referenced to him a lot, and I say, Oh, do you remember how stuff has changed since then? Yeah, but the best piece of advice I got told going into the football club is the worst thing you could be is um outwardly a fan, so like don't be in everyone's face about it. So I tried to make sure that I didn't fan boy out in front of any of the players. Although there were a couple of things. Because a lot of these are you a lot of these people are people I grew up idolizing, yeah. But that's that's the reality for a lot of Swan staff. So the biggest piece of advice was to just make sure that you're keep professional when you can. Um, but there are moments, there were definitely pinch me moments in my career. Um, moments where I've privately messaged my WhatsApp groups afterwards and been like, I can't believe this is happening. Can you can you imagine telling uh 11-year-old me at the vetch um that I'd be on first name terms with Lee Trundle, Leon Britton, and all those sort of players that I grew up idolizing? Uh but one thing that um I think we probably haven't touched on, but I think a lot of people and a lot of guests would would touch on it. Being a disabled person in employment, there is a very much um you have imposter syndrome and it hits very big that you that you almost like you've won a prize to be there. Yeah, I think it's only now I've got comfortable, and I think actually, I've actually worked hard in my career and I know quite a bit about stuff now to get to this point.
SPEAKER_01Did that take you a long time to feel no, I am good at my job, I do know what I'm doing. I'm here because people value what I've got to say and what I do.
SPEAKER_00100%. It's taking me so it's taken me so long, probably too long. Uh, and then obviously, when you're going into the Swan's Academy side of things and the player care side of things, again, that was out of my comfort zone, and I was very conscious, and it takes me back to school, uh, secondary school, that I was a disabled person coming into an environment where there was athletes, so I knew that there'd be a lot of people being like, Why is there a man in a wheelchair in our academy or in in the training ground? So that was very, very weird for me. But one of the moments that um stands out and put me at ease instantly. Um I doubt he will listen to this podcast, but somebody I hope will reference it to him.
SPEAKER_01If Catalya is listening, can she have this?
SPEAKER_00I've got a lot of respect for Swansea City legend Alan Tate, because he was working in the academy as a coach at the time, um, and he was the first member of staff to offer to make make well, first coach to offer to make me a cup of tea. Oh and that instantly put me at ease, and it was like, okay, I'm fine. Luckily, because of the department I was in when I first went into the stadium, I knew Alan because he came in and spoke to people anyway. So he treated me like a colleague, and in fairness to the coaches, because it that maybe sounds a little disparaging to the other coaches. Um, they've all been lovely since. So whenever I whenever I've been to the coaches, everyone always says hello and stuff. So it was probably me that had that concern more than the coaches, hadn't I?
SPEAKER_01So and like now you're working for level playing fields. So level playing field, can you uh talk a little bit about what uh level playing field do and and what your role is within the organization?
SPEAKER_00Um yeah, so uh in between my time at Swansea, I did actually end up going to work for the uh Welsh Ambulance Service in non-emergency patient transport. Uh really enjoyed that. Again, that was something completely different. But again, that self-deprecating humour stood me in good stead there because um, similar to when I was in the academy, to to make other people feel feel comfortable about around disability, I've always been the one that that makes a joke first. Yeah, because then if you make the joke, no one else can make it. Um and it sort of brings down the awkwardness, and then people suddenly go, Oh, I can talk to him. Yeah. So I remember being in the academy, and the the question you'd get all the time is, Oh, so what do you do here? And I'd always go, I'm the left back. And then just wait for that like penny to drop, and then suddenly they go, Oh, okay, it's okay. I don't need to don't need to worry about talking. Because what I find with I'd always check positions to make sure there was no left backs in the room. But what I find with disability is some people are so afraid of saying the wrong thing they don't say anything at all. So if I jump in with a joke, they suddenly go, Okay, I don't need to watch every little thing I say. That doesn't mean I don't call out poor practice when I see it. Um, it's just it's it's how I work. I always tell my friends as well, don't use the same sense of humour you do with me with all the same people because everybody's humour is different. Yeah, exactly. I I tended to do that a lot, and that's what helped me get the role in the uh ambulance service, and that's probably why I got on with the crew so much there. And I owe plenty of favours to them. But obviously, then the the role with level playing field came up because I realized I missed working in sport, I missed having that sort of base knowledge on or or that knowledge I have in terms of trying to introduce those facilities and fan engagement and how it works behind the scenes with the club. There's a lot of people in the club that I could thank in terms of they kind of kept me in the loop and would ring me up and say, I've had this happen, what should I do? Um, and that never that passion for that industry never went away. So when the role of level playing field came up, I jumped in it with two hands. Um, level playing field is a charity that supports disabled fans to attend live sports. So we work across a number of sports, predominantly. There's a lot of work in football, uh, and obviously, and because of my past experiences, this is something I again have done a lot uh of uh but we work across uh cricket, rugby league, uh rugby union, ice hockey. There's a cover of other sports, horse racing as well. I probably missed out a load of them. But essentially, what my role is here now is I'm the final engagement and inquiry officer. So I'm the first port of call for any inquiries or uh issues for disabled spectators. So they will um email in or contact level playing field. It typically lands with me first, and then I either triage that and hand that over to our access team, which is our group of access auditors, or who gives specific technical guidance on stadiums and and uh the built environment, or I will hand it off to uh our fan engagement team or our club relations team, or I tend to pick it up myself, so it's a mixture of who's who's busy at the time and who can pick up stuff. So uh it's it's very interesting, and again, it's rewarding because it's uh about helping other disabled fans across the UK, really, in England and Wales.
SPEAKER_01And I was gonna ask you, is it across England and Wales? Like you've got clubs up and down England down Wales, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00So it's across England and Wales, it's across the football pyramid, even into non-league. Um, and also we're doing a lot more in Scotland as well recently. Um, and so that's quite interesting as well, um, because you find that sometimes the legislation can be slightly different on they say building regs. Um but then there's other things where I find some of the barriers are universal across the board for a lot of these clubs and fans.
SPEAKER_01What do you think are the biggest barriers for disabled people wanting to come and watch live sport?
SPEAKER_00I do think there is a misconception that the that live sport isn't accessible for disabled people. I find that football in particular, as a sport, has had its seminal moments, so there is a bigger spotlight and onus on football clubs to have accessibility at a higher standard than other entertainment industries. I should say that. Um but I think obviously the biggest barriers would be um probably the lack of um accessible transport or transport infrastructure to get there, and obviously having that support and understanding about what facilities and support disabled people would need, whether that's the um use of a personal assistant or supportive personal assistant and how that impacts somebody's match day, or if they could introduce other facilities. And you know, we've talked about sensory rooms earlier, we've touched on that. We know we know clubs have introduced quiet spaces as well. Um, so there is definitely uh more of an understanding there and more of a willingness to put these facilities in place, which I think has been really important.
SPEAKER_01I think that's how you get information across to people make it easy for people to book accessible tickets, PA tickets, and not have to go through loads of red tape to just tickets to a football art.
SPEAKER_00One of the hills I will always die on if I can get up it is that um the accessibility information should be readily available. So clubs, venues, whatever sort of industry you're in, make sure you've got it there. It's easy to find. You haven't buried it on your website somewhere under weird subtitle or it's subheading. Um, it's clear it doesn't need to be war and peace, it just needs to be somebody that you can contact if you need to contact somebody. So if you've got a question, I tend to, because of the reliance on my electric wheelchair now, that I will um uh research a lot of venues and um wherever I'm going. So if somebody says, Oh, I need you to go here, I will research it just so I can picture it in my head and know that it's relatively accessible or if I can manage around it. Um, as you know, I have two electric wheelchairs. I have my day-to-day one which is robust, and had to cope with the hills of Aberistwith, and that's why that's why it's as old as it is. It's that's probably going on 14-15 years old. And then I bought a travel wheelchair, which is a foldable electric wheelchair, um, which I use to uh travel now and again. It's just because it's easier to fly and all that sort of stuff, and I'm not so worried about it getting damaged, although I have insured it just in case. Uh, but it does knowing what facilities that are there does depend on what I take or what support I have available because if I don't have a PA, I may feel safer going in one chair than the other. Uh, one of the things that clubs will say is a top thing for for them in terms of barrier fans would say would be the lack of accessible parking. Uh it's something that crops up regularly in our annual fan surveys. Um, I do have sympathy with clubs because I do think generally you'll never have enough parking. Um but uh what one of the key things for that is that for many disabled people, the having the option to park on site could be the uh main reason for them deciding to attend the game or not. So it's it's uh almost a deciding factor. Uh so I do try and encourage clubs where they can to be dynamic in terms of how they operate that and whether they've got any contingency on the day and that sort of stuff, or even if they don't have anything on site, work locally with um different charities and different organizations to see whether you can have off-site parking but with accessible shuttle service in and out.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Uh just to give the simple sports another option. Um, but yeah, it's it's always a challenge.
SPEAKER_01Well, I think the work you're doing is brilliant, and you're allowing more people to enjoy live sport, so keep up what you're doing, Mark. And I I will sorry. I'll put the links to like double playing field and swan just the DSA, because that's the only DSA you need to know about most people.
SPEAKER_00They they've got a very good reputation, I will give them that. Uh Cast eye is doing exceptional work in terms of uh the work with the DSA. I know a lot of DSAs will ask about different um different services and different stuff that the Swan's DSA have sort of implemented over the years. So uh but I will say she's got a better contact book for me as well.
SPEAKER_01So oh yeah. She just asks people to do stuff and they turn up as well.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. Exactly that.
SPEAKER_01Um, and if you have the misfortune to support a different football club, work in depending on your point of view, and sure that your football club will have a DSA and just look into it, look on their website and see what's available.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I would I would just say if anybody's got any questions, they can reach out to us at and you know, send send me an email on info at levelplayingfield.org.uk and then we can pick it up from there in terms of again, it's getting to know who does what in the football club, I think, is really important. Uh some DAOs down the football pyramid may have several different hats. So it may be very difficult for them to get a response back to you in time. If that is the case, come through to us and we can we can facilitate that conversation and go from there.
SPEAKER_01So if you're happy, Mark, I'll put some links in the description of this episode, right? Good.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, excellent.
SPEAKER_01Last question I've got for you then, Mike. Thank you so much for your time this morning. Is what is one thing that you wish people knew about CP?
SPEAKER_00One thing I wish people knew. I I knew I know Smithy had a really controversial answer, which sort of scuffed your whole podcast idea.
SPEAKER_01You can't estimate the concept of this podcast.
SPEAKER_00Exactly, exactly right. He's very controversial, Smithy. Um, one thing I would tell people about CP is obviously that you've met one person with CP, that's one person with CP. When there's nobody really the same, everyone's really individual and it can vary. It's again, it's it's a spectrum, as with a lot of um conditions for disabled people. So it's getting to know that individual. Um obviously, don't be afraid to ask questions either. That's how I've always approached it. Uh, I think I touched on it slightly earlier that if if you do have a question, I'd rather you ask it and then sort of you know whisper it or not, not talk to me at all. Um, I definitely was aware of that um as a as a child. You know, if you walk in the corridor, sometimes people see something with a disability and they're like, quick, don't make eye contact, just in case they don't they have to say something. But yeah.
SPEAKER_01Mark, thank you so much. It's been lovely to talk to you today. Thank you so much for your time.
SPEAKER_00Always good to catch up with your key. You know that.
SPEAKER_01And I'll see you down the liberty at some point.
SPEAKER_00Um, yes, I'll just get you out of the legal hot water key. It is the Swansea.com sending you back, but yeah.
SPEAKER_01Thank you. Maybe I should cut that with it out. But thank you so much for for joining me on this episode of the Falsey Podcast. And thank you um to you for listening. And please like, subscribe, share, and comment if you've got any questions for me or any of my future guests. I'd love to hear them. Uh, but for now, it's goodbye for me, and it's goodbye from Mark. Goodbye.
SPEAKER_00Thanks everyone.
SPEAKER_01Thank you for listening to this episode of the Palsy Podcast with me, Hugh and Fitzgerald. I want to thank my guests for joining me, and I hope that you'll stay tuned for the next episode and more. Thank you.