The Palsy Podcast

The Palsy Podcast - Episode 28 - Tom Wentworth

• Ciaran • Season 1 • Episode 28

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Playwright Tom Wentworth joins Ciaran on episode 28 of the Palsy Podcast. Tom is a playwright and screenwriter. Tom has written for Pentabus and Jermyn Street Theatre, and is also the co-chair of the equality and diversity comity for the Writer's Guild of Great Britain. Tom talks to Ciaran about his career and lived experience with Cerebral Palsy 

SPEAKER_03

Hello and welcome to the Palsy Podcast with me Q and the channel. I'm a playwright, screenwriter, and podcaster from South Wales. And seeing as March is Cerberus Awareness Month to market, I've decided to interview interesting people who have cyber palsy from Wales and beyond every day in March. If you like this episode, please stay tuned for Paul throughout the month and like and share. Now enjoy this episode of the Palsy Podcast. Hello and welcome to episode 28 of the Palsy Podcast. We are coming to the end of the month of March. And March is Cyber Palsy Awareness Month. If you haven't been following my journey with the Palsy Podcast, previously in the month I'm interviewing interesting people who have CP every day in March to mark Cyber Palsy Awareness Month. And if you're listening or watching this, please feel free after you finish listening to this episode to go back and listen to any of the previous episodes that I've recorded. But today I'm delighted to be joined by Tom Wentworth. Hi Tom, how are you doing, mate?

SPEAKER_00

Hello and hi, I'm good, thank you. How are you? Are you surviving this mad month?

SPEAKER_03

Just about. I mean a lot of people have got on this podcast and spoken about the use of energy when you have CP saving energy. And I have not managed to save much energy this month, I must be honest with you. Um, but I think I will miss it next week when it's all over. I don't think I could continue this indefinitely.

SPEAKER_00

You'll just have to go back and watch yourself. You'll just have to go back and watch everyone.

SPEAKER_03

What's been lovely is looking at little clips and and people sharing bits of insight and hopefully we'll get some more of that from you today, Tom. So firstly, I I wanted to ask you what was it like growing up with cyber palsy? What was your experience in in childhood really?

SPEAKER_00

Um, yeah, it's an interesting question, isn't it? Because um I was thinking about this, and I'm sure other people have said this too, but uh but because you don't know any different, um it's it's slightly odd too uh harder to say, really, I suppose. Um I suppose my experience is defined by the fact that I'm an only child. So I would in a way say that that is a is a bigger part of it because um all my parents' attention was on was on me. Um and and so um I think I was sort of socialized quite early uh because they were so concerned I didn't have siblings, so therefore, you know, get me out into drama clubs and into choirs and after school activities and all that stuff. So I became aware of having CP by seeing it through other people's eyes, I suppose, if that makes if that makes sense, and um, you know, and often being the only physically disabled person in in those in those spaces. I I went to a a special needs, special educational needs school from three until seven. Um so in that sense I was uh one of many and and was certainly not the not the um the outsider in that sense, but then at seven I went to into mainstream education. Um so then I was totally the the the the the outsider there.

SPEAKER_03

What was that experience like within the special school? Did you as someone who whose CP doesn't affect your cognitive ability, did you feel frustrated? Did you feel that you weren't being do you remember much about that? Because obviously you're very young.

SPEAKER_00

I I do, yeah, and I did I did feel frustrated. Part of part of me loved it, um, because who doesn't like the opportunity to to shine all the time? That's that's rather nice to feel that you're good at stuff. And I had great friends and and and um you know there is a lovely sense. I suppose I think we'll come on to talk about this, but I I think what it's set up for me is a sense of community and how important having uh community around you you is and doing things like this. This is all part of making a community of of of of CP friends and colleagues and so on. So that's continued and and was really important. And I've still got a couple of friends from that from that time, but um, yeah, I was I was absolutely frustrated, and at seven I was ready to I was ready to go. And um there was another friend who actually transitioned with me and then ended up going back um to that school. So I I carried on sort of on my on my journey um into mainstream school and and loved it and and was very lucky because I went to a very small primary school where they um were were very understanding and aware. And um, yeah, it was great to be it was great to be pushed um cognitively, uh, but it but it came with its own challenges, you know, because I then was was the the kind of the outsider or the different person. And um and so that was quite a quite a gear shift really.

SPEAKER_03

Did you have a good level of support in school when you moved into Main Street?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I did. I did. They actually, um, to be frank, they put me into a year lower than the year I'd been in the previous school, so it gave me a bit of time to do the the not worry about the educational stuff and just have a year to kind of catch my catch my breath uh around everything else. So there was a bit of time to to make the transition really work. So I think that was quite clever, and then I had various PAs and so on looking after me, and and those relationships have been quite precious to me. Um, and so it's been yeah, it was it was good, it was really good. And then of course you get into um you know uh making friends and and being being one of the gang, and then it was yeah, and then I was sort of I was sort of off then, and school's so um so busy, isn't it? Sounds ridiculous. Yeah but school is very b is often very busy, so you don't have time to, or I didn't have time to reflect on how different how different I was I was worried about getting my homework done or not getting my homework done or whatever, you know.

SPEAKER_03

And a lot of people have have spoken like this podcast of having a really positive experience in primary school, and then the transition to secondary being difficult and more challenging, but you know, everyone's different. So, what was your experience of that?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I didn't I didn't find that transition hard simply because I think I'd already done the transition. Uh that's really my time. I I'd already all those things were I had out, I knew what I needed. Um the provision was there. Again, very lucky, thank you to to parents and teachers who did that. So I think I'd sort of done, and I was quite um quite grown up, I think, by the time I was going to and also I was a year older than all my peers, so um in my when I was leaving, so I I was quite grown up and quite ready to go, I think, um, by that point, and uh sort of knew what I wanted to do. I was already writing at that point.

SPEAKER_03

So I how do you how did you how did you start writing? Where did that feeling of going? I don't remember.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I don't remember not writing, to be honest. Um I I always did stories and and not necessarily plays or or television, but but stories and and uh I suppose what we'd call now fan fiction. We didn't call it fan fiction then, but I used to write stories with all my favourite sort of characters from the TV and things like that, and and um yeah, and I'd make little radio plays. I'd always be recording. I had one of those uh recorders where you had the two the two tapes, the two cassettes, and you could record stuff off the radio, record and play and press down, and then I'd make little programs, you know. So um so it's always I think I never I don't know, I still think that basically what I'm doing is a form of imaginative play. Because I was an only child and I think I've never lost the I think play has always been so important and I've never lost I just didn't grow out of playing and making making up characters and and uh and I'm still doing it now. And I I kind of wanted to act as a child, that was a big thing, and I think that was all part of an extension. Uh but I was I was yeah, I was always writing. Uh probably quite precocious and maybe a little bit annoying, I suspect. But um, yeah, it was always it was always I just don't remember not doing it.

SPEAKER_03

And you kind of always thought this is what I want to create. I want to be a writer.

SPEAKER_00

When did that I think yes, I I mean I watched a lot of television and uh and I was lucky because my mum was very into the theatre and had been a dancer and was um very aware about the arts. So um so I think I just picked up that on the credits there were these people called writers, and and that they wrote they wrote the stuff I was enjoying, and I started to watch more of their stuff, and I would see that when we went to the theatre that it was written by a a playwright and I'd see more of their stuff. Um uh, you know, the eight bornes and the Bennett's and all those kind of people, and you think, well, these people are having a career, they don't just write one thing, they write lots of things. Um and so I think it just got got into me, and I thought, I don't know how you don't quite know how you do that, but I I see names on books and things, so so I I'll I'll give that a go. And I don't think I think um maybe maybe my parents had never said no to me, so I assume that I just thought it was it was something you just got on and did, you know.

SPEAKER_03

But but you make a joke of that, but it's so important, isn't it, to have parents or support next to her who's what you want to do, so we will support you in whatever way you can do that.

SPEAKER_00

It's fine. Yeah, and and and my mum did know about the theatre, and she had been in the theatre, so she knew it was kind of possible. She didn't know any writers, we didn't have those kind of connections, but she did know that it was a a very thing. I th that was also great, and also all that support I'd had at school, you know, I had massive support from them about the transition and everything, and so I was I knew that I was kind of academically solid, I suppose, if that makes if that makes any sense. And it um, you know, and and once you're once you're in the school system, you know, writing is is prized, whether that's essays or whatever. So I I was doing a lot of it. So yeah, it was it was it was just a very natural thing to do, and I've just never stopped um doing it. So um somebody will find me out eventually, Kieran, let's be honest.

SPEAKER_03

But uh well if they find you if they find you out, Tom, you know, w what I think I'll be gonna feel they're coming for you next, yes. And and do you have a process? Do you have a writing process, or does it vary depending on the project that you're working on?

SPEAKER_00

Well, it it it varies, and I know lots of people have said this on this podcast, so I feel like I'm sort of repeating what other people have said, but I think it's really important. It varies in terms of energy, it does vary in terms of project, but I'm having to learn, and it's taken me a long time, um, that I I don't have a huge amount of energy, even on my best days. So it's taking account of that and making sure that um, you know, I end the day with something, not it might not be 2,000 words or 20 pages or whatever it is, my you know, but it might if it's one good page or a few words that are really good, then I I'm I'm happy with that. I used to set myself incredible deadline, you know, um uh targets for the day and and and then be terribly disappointed. And I'm trying desperately to to bring those right down and to to just focus on a few quality words um uh a day, and I'm starting to unbelievably um in my 30s get the hang of holidays, which have never been a uh a big thing for me, and I'm I'm starting to quite enjoy them. So um that's a that's a new new thing for me, a new experience.

SPEAKER_03

I think it can be very difficult, especially when you freelance, to give yourself license to have time off. I don't know if you're the same, Tom, but I put a lot of pressure on my to think this has to be good. This has to be I really have to put energy into it. I can almost take over everything else in my life when I'm working on something quite intensely.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, well, I I I think you might not have um chosen to do uh a podcast every day in the in the that wasn't your your character trait, for example. I I totally I totally get it, and I I feel very much the same. And so to go back to your question about process, uh my process is quite um to the outside possibly quite chaotic, um, but I I try and I try and do what I call checking in. So I try and check in with the work every day, and that doesn't necessarily mean writing thousands of words, but it means just holding it in my head, um, so that the characters have room to to do whatever it is they need to do, or it might be that I just read over what I did yesterday and think about that. And I might not add anything to it, but um it just means that I'm sort of with the work all the time and and and and it's not taking over necessarily the entire day. So today I've got a really busy day of of meetings and chats and sorts of there won't be any time to write any words, there won't be any energy left. So what I'll do is just read over what I did the last couple of days, and at least then it's when I'm going to a meeting or or sitting, I can I can sort of have my brain half on it, and my subconscious can maybe solve a couple of problems. That's the that's the main hope, anyway, that you know I'll wake up tomorrow and think, aha, I have the manual solution. Um so I think it's yeah, it's about checking in with it and also, you know, just giving myself give myself time and remembering that I'm not a you know, I'm not an athlete. I'm really not in so many ways, but but even in writing, you know, so it's it's yeah, and I like I like to have stuff I can tick. I'm very um carrot and stick oriented, so I need something nice at the end of the day. I need a a treat of some kind, and I need um a kind of something I can I can tick off. So so with notes, for example, if people give feedback, I want to put that into a chart and and uh and tick it off. So basically, Kieran, I'm still looking for a gold star, you know what I mean? That's what I really want at the end of the day, is kind of a gold star and some house points. Basically, we never really grow up from being being I I I don't think we do it.

SPEAKER_03

I think you're right. I think when certainly I've asked for notes from people, yes, you you're asking for them to make the play better, but you want them to think that it's good, you know.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah or or at least Kieran, you've you've worked really hard on that. I can see that you've worked really hard, and then then you can um certainly I can sort of take any kind of criticism then because I started from a basis of of um, yeah, you've you've you've done the very best that you can, and now we're gonna make it better together. And I love that about writing, particularly in drama, is you know, it's such a collaborative process, and basically I'm searching for commu I'm an only child who's an extrovert, so I need um community around me. But I'm totally unsuited to sitting at a desk all day on my own. It's a stupid job to have taken for an extrovert. Um, so I basically need to know that at about five o'clock I'm gonna get to see my friends and hang out, you know. So um, so that's probably a big part of my process. And the other is that I have several friends, I'm in a writer's group, and uh, we're all really close and we check in with each other most days about how it's going. And that for me is really important to say out loud, this is what I'm going to achieve today. And um, and sometimes they say, Hold on a minute, doesn't that sound like rather a lot? You know, check in with your energy, and that's actually been really important to see it through their eyes, um, of saying, No, I don't need to do 2,000 words a day, you know, um uh 200 will will be really good, you know. So it's um yeah, it's it's quite a chaotic process, and and I'm I'm a big fan of I'm still a big fan of the all-nighter when it's needed. And that's that's not a good thing. But I'm still I'm not gonna lie and say I'm not a big fan because I am. I've never really got out of it.

SPEAKER_03

Oh well, the either me tell me. Oh, the all-nighters. Speaking of all-nighters, we're gonna talk about university next. Um so what was your experience in university like you and the did you go to University of South Wales?

SPEAKER_00

Yes, uh University of Glamorgan as it was then. Right. Um, but but University of South Wales as it is now. And uh yeah, I had a wonderful time at um university. I loved it. Again, I took a took a year out in the m in the middle after after school, um, and um and that was great. And uh during that time I um actually ended up getting a column for a magazine called Able Magazine, which is still going, I think, um, but it was a disability trade magazine, and they wanted um uh well they didn't ask, but I wrote a piece about um uh applying for university as a disabled student and how tricky that had been because it was it was quite a tricky process, and um lots of places at the time that I I applied to said we're just not um we'd love to have you, but you've got the grades and everything, but but our provision is not is not there. Um this was 2009, 2008, 2009.

SPEAKER_03

Was that because of the accommodation or the building, the academic building?

SPEAKER_00

Both, both it was quite yeah, it was quite challenging actually, and um and quite a shock, if I'm honest for me, because again, I'd sort of sailed through, if you know what I mean, through through academically, and and and all my provision had been had been there, and then suddenly there was this stopping point of um you're not gonna be able to do that. You are very different. And I think actually for me that was a big moment. You were talking earlier about when did you kind of realize and feel different. I think it was it was almost then was the first time I felt really different, um, and that I was being stopped, and all my friends were were uh sailing on, it felt to me, to to university places, and and I wasn't, you know, and um and so that was quite challenging for me that that year, and I was very lucky that I could live at home and and and and my mum wanted me to be there, and that was great. Um, but obviously I felt, well, why am I not going off and doing my thing? So I ended up going going a year later and got the the course at at um in Cardiff, which was wonderful, and that was a course, a radio BA, that was to do radio, which is something I've always loved and been fascinated by, and definitely comes from being uh being a disabled person because of spending so much time in bed um as a teenager being operated on, um audio for me has always been a really safe um safe space. So um I know that if podcasts had been around then as they are now, I wouldn't have been a podcast junkie, but I'm totally addicted to to audio drama and uh uh audiobooks and and everything like that. So I'm a total oral um learner, total oral thinker. Um so and that definitely comes from from being um isolated and and immobile. That's that's definitely gonna track that right right back, actually. Um so that was wonderful to go to go there and do three years of of radio production. And we had to do it, it was great because we had to do everything. We had to present, produce, and you had to do, I mean, I had to do programmes about sport, Kieran. I mean, actually about sport. Um and um, you know, and uh and they had you doing our first day, we had to go out into Cardiff and stand on Queen Street and um ask people on mic about what toothpaste they used. I mean, it was just extraordinary. Um Um and do kind of vox pops and stuff. So it was it was fab. And um and I did feel there were only twelve of us and I did really feel again I felt kind of one of the gang and I felt like I've got this and uh yeah nobody made me feel feel different and actually thinking back about it I don't remember ever making a piece and I think this is really interesting ever making a piece at university about m disability.

SPEAKER_03

Um was that because it it wasn't something you're interested in, wasn't something that you wanted to do?

SPEAKER_00

Do you know what I think it just never occurred to me, and because I I mean I've done a lot of it since and we'll come on to we'll come on to that, but um but I I I think it just never crossed my mind, and nobody said nobody said on the course, you know, maybe that's something that makes you different. Now I I caveat all this with that my memory is terrible, so it might be that I made two or three pieces about disability, but they don't stand out to me. I made I made stuff about music, I made stuff about cake, I did quite a lot about cake, um, and because the great British bake-off had just kind of started in that year. So I made quite a lot about that, and um, and did lots of sort of group projects and made made uh uh documentary about dating scams and did all sorts of things. So so that was it was great actually because um little did I know this wouldn't be the case when I moved into the industry, but I was able to do uh different things, things that were away from my identity, and that's actually been very important, and has not then massively been the case uh moving into professional life. So it's it's it was actually quite a quite a treat. And I I will say, I suppose the caveat to that is that while I was doing the course, I was still writing the column for Abel magazine, so that was about being and and what that was like. And I I I wrote a lot about um kind of nights out and and how and and tricky things around access and stuff. So so I did have an absolute awareness of that, but I think that yes, that was just like a um I sort of used that as my therapy, I think that column, looking looking back, but I I kept it for for four or five years. I left university by the time I I finished doing it. So so yeah, so always always writing, Kieran. But yeah, I find it really interesting that I didn't make massive amounts of of what we now call disability content.

SPEAKER_03

Uh so what was that transition then? You finished university and then you alluded to things that maybe became more challenging in terms of breaking into the industry. Yeah. So I can't do that.

SPEAKER_00

Well, here's where here's where disability is a marvelous thing. Um, for me anyway. And it always has been kind of a a little um, you know, when people say, I don't know if they've said this to you, Karen, but oh, if you had a magic wand, would you become non-disabled? And my answer is always no. I'm I agree with you, yeah. Stupid. Um, you know, because it it it can be a real well, the world could be a challenge. That's the social model of disability. But the disability itself has never kind of let me down, I feel. The CP has always kind of been there as a bit of a bit of a talisman, if that doesn't sound too weird. Um, and so I think, yeah, so I I I w knew I was coming up to the end of university and what am I going to do next? And at that time, um, you know, the um luckily Cardiff was booming and still is. Wells is still booming thankfully with television television production. And um and they the BBC have a marvellous scheme called Extend, which is for disabled um candidates to join join the BBC. And so I applied to Extend and uh got a job on Casualty as a script assistant, assistant script editor. Um and so that was wonderful. So I actually finished university on the Friday and basically joined the BBC pretty much on the Monday, which was Oh wow. So I was I was so lucky, but but again, I would never have got that, um, or it would have been a lot tougher um if I hadn't that scheme hadn't existed and I hadn't had the CP. I sort of put the CP down to that, and and some some skill to find it out and things like that, but uh it was it was fantastic.

SPEAKER_03

And and there's a question here, isn't there? And I'm certainly not saying this personally about you, Tom, but there's a feeling that I've had sometimes. Oh, did I get that job because I'm a good writer? Or did I get that job because I'm disabled? And I think a lot of that maybe is internalized ableism and fear of tokenism, but have you ever felt like that? And how did you kind of deal with that if you did?

SPEAKER_00

I I think I feel it um when I have a fear that the work isn't good enough that I've handed in, and if I know that the work is good enough and I've worked as hard as I can um on it, uh we're back to perfectionism again, um, then um then that fear doesn't crop up. So I've come to associate that, and I totally recognise it, and again, this is only my opinion on it, I feel very differently, but I've come to associate it as actually a um a sense of fear from me that I didn't do quite the best that I could, or I ran out of energy um at the last minute, or I had to pull an all-nighter uh because I'd been passing too hard or doing other things. Um so um so I've actually, yeah, I can sort of separate those two out. And I think um uh diversity and inclusion is a is a marvelous thing, and we need to be setting targets and bringing people along and basically reaching out those of us who've got a platform and are lucky enough to have that, we need to be reaching our hands down and uh and pulling other people up afterwards. And so I'm not sure that it's always, you know, I think talent will always rise to the top, right? And whether you've got CP or whatever it is, and we've all got some difference, like nobody is nobody is immune. I really believe that. And everyone is pre-disabled. I'm sorry to tell them, but that is that is the case. And so, um, so yeah, come along, you know, and I think I think it's it's really important to to say, no, I got this because I deserve it. And sometimes I I don't feel that, and sometimes I've been asked to do jobs uh where I know it's a box tick, I absolutely know it's a box tick, and funny enough, those jobs never turn out to to be the happiest um jobs. So I've started to sort of, I don't know, get a six, you get a sixth sense about them. And um and yeah, so I hope that people offer me things and hopefully offer you things, um, that uh because we're we're good at what we do, or we've or we've a perspective. I mean that's the other part of it, isn't it? That when somebody offers something because you've a uh you've a specific perspective to offer, then I think that's a different thing as well.

SPEAKER_03

I think that's I think that's a really good point. And that perspective doesn't always have to be direct lived experience, but can be an element of lived experience projected on something with which we've got maybe a little bit of familiarity, but the work that we create shouldn't always be about disability and shouldn't always have to be autobiographical.

SPEAKER_00

No, no, that's been that's been hard. That's been actually very the hardest thing for me in a way has been that I'm I'm it's getting a little bit better, but I'm very rarely offered um stuff that doesn't have a a disability angle or an LGBT angle, because I identify as LGBT, um, and um you know um that that's tricky and I sort of say to people, but I want to write everything. I want to write from every, you know, I want to write all the all the fun stuff that isn't about those things. And I I I really also want to write about those things, but but not all the time, you know. Give me give me all the sweeties in the in the sweetie shop.

SPEAKER_03

Um speaking of of projects, um I I do want to talk about Breaking Hell Later, but first I'd like to talk about it because I was reading your bio on your agent trips, and uh one play in particular, a little bit of ruined beauty stood out uh to me. And can you talk a little bit about what the play was about and how you came to write the the play?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I can. Yes, it it was a a commission from Unlimited um and Pentabus, and it was performed by by Pentabus, produced by Pentibus, um for a rural tour. Um and it was about a well originally it was about uh three generations of women, uh one a daughter who is disabled, and um then a um uh a grandmother who's fast becoming disabled, and a mother who is also becoming disabled. Again, I'm very interested in in kind of pre-disability. And and and it was about those generations and how you how you go from being cared for as a child to being carer and um uh a sort of perennial theme for me, really. And um and then it actually changed dramatically and became a two-hander about uh father and son um in that in that same predicament. So it became about the the son going back to care for his father who had cared for him. And um, yeah, it was a really interesting experience um because um I'm I would write it very differently now. Um my my in-laws are currently needing care, and um, so we're in that situation. My mum at the time had had a big back operation, that's where the idea sort of came from. And so uh my husband and I were going home to care for her, and I just started to think about the the changes that happen in life and how much she'd given me um and uh cared for me throughout my whole life and is still caring for me, and how different it is um for parents of disabled kids who have to continue that um care for such a lot longer often. And very intimate care. This I should say this is kind of about intimate care, um, and um and that then I was starting to do some of that care for her, but also realizing that I can't lift her or um or any of those things, and how upsetting that is for me, and how much guilt I I felt at the time and and still feel to some extent that I I wasn't going to be able to do those things. So um so it's a it's a complicated play, and hopefully it's got some humour in it as well. But it was, yeah, it was a real um, it was a really interesting piece to write, and very um confronting in a way. And and funnily enough, I've just written, and it was broadcast in July. I wrote a play for Radio 4 called When I Fall, which is a uh a romantic comedy in Seven Falls, so it's the Seven Falls of the main protagonist, um, and um and and it's about falling in love, but it also sort of tackles in a small way um the caring that happens in relationships with a with a partner, in this case a same-sex relationship. But um, but yeah, that's the so it's a perennial theme for me that I keep returning to this this cared-for carer balancing act.

SPEAKER_03

And I don't know if you feel this, but when I, in terms of when I have to ask my parents for help or assistance, sometimes there's that guilt of like, oh, should I be doing this myself? Should I be more intelligent?

SPEAKER_00

Should I do you know what I'm trying to say here? Totally, I totally I do. And um, yeah, it's a very it's a very complicated thing that I'm not sure um people really realize if they're not within within the community. I and I think it's it's um and also um there's another element to it, which is they want to do it. The parents are sort of um without meaning to. They they they my mum certainly um has sort of never forgiven me, I think, for moving out because um because I think she'd still love to be doing it and she loves um uh looking I mean all parents do, don't they love looking after children when they go home? But um there's a you know she sort of misses misses the routine of it, I suppose, in a way. And um I don't want to speak for her, but it's yeah, it's it's it's complicated and it's emotional, and um I have a funny feeling that I'll probably return to it in in writing in some in some other form in the future. It tends to I tend to do this, Karen, where you think you're writing about one thing and you think you're writing about far away from yourself and it's nothing to do with you, and then some old theme like that pops up into the piece and you're writing the same thing again.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Yes, absolutely, yes. Um yeah, you it you can pretend say, oh, this is about other people, this is not what I'm going through. But because of our lived experience, because of yeah, it's just some things crop up almost every play, almost without realizing automatically.

SPEAKER_00

But it was quite interesting to revisit that theme actually, um, sort of eight years on um for the radio because I had such sort of different different feelings about it. So it was intriguing to to sort of and it was a different relationship. It wasn't between a although there is actually a a mother in the in the in the radio play as well being cared for, but but um but it it was quite interesting to see how I'd I don't know I'd matured in my not only in my writing, one hopes that that happens, but also in um in my thinking around around care, I suppose. So um that was actually quite quite intriguing. So I sort of feel that that little bits of Ruin Beauty and When I Fall are almost companion pieces, um having a having a conversation. I sort of like to, if that doesn't sound too too mad, uh they're they're sort of in conversation with one another and sort of two two halves of me, really. So um so yeah, it's it's fascinating how the but I tell you what what what is is really interesting is that um certainly well for for little bits as well, but certainly for the radio, uh because and because of social media, so many people wrote to me who I didn't know and said this is my this is my experience about about care and about um I suppose the plays also about how do you navigate um uh uh a sexual partner becoming um a carer and how do you have that conversation. And so many people wrote to me and said um this is this is our experience or my experience, then this is the the unconventional um relationship that I'm in. So I was really touched by that because I felt that people it was giving something a bit of air that um that was is maybe a slightly hidden hidden truth.

SPEAKER_03

And this isn't in the questions that are written, but something that uh came to me when you were speaking about that when you were kind of before you met your husband and like wanting to form a relationship, did you feel any sort of that that would be was that difficult for you? Were there challenges and what did you find in terms of navigating relationships?

SPEAKER_00

Oh yes, uh there were there were definite challenges. I mean, I used to love going on dates because I'm nosy and I would um go on dates with people I knew I wasn't gonna have any relationship with, but they just had a fascinating story. I think it's one of the best things about internet dating. Um and um and uh and I think yeah, that I got some great stories from that, total magpie for stories. And um and so that was fab. But yeah, I faced a lot of um a lot of ableism uh in the dating world. It it really is very um it can be very difficult, very demoralizing, um, and and very harsh. And people don't hold back. And I think it's much worse now with with social media and Instagram and all of that kind of thing. So so I I don't envy any disabled people. Um in fact I don't envy anyone um doing that because it's it's it's really um yeah, it's kind of dog eat dog, and um, and I was very lucky um that I I met the right person and and they were immediately understanding and and that's that's been a wonderful thing. But I think it's it's yeah, it was it was hugely um terrifying actually. And I had lots of lots of quite looking back, and you don't think about this when you're when you're in your early twenties, but but um but quite terrifying experiences and and definitely experienced more ableism and uh bullying um in the dating scene than than I'd ever experienced in school or university.

SPEAKER_03

And and would you put on your online dating profiles that you're disabled or would you not?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I all I always did because um because I I thought, well it's part of it's part of me, you know. Um and and I felt that that was I I didn't want there's enough shame within the within the LGBT community. I thought if I can be proud of my sexuality, then I've got to be proud of my disability. So yeah, I I always did. Now, having said that, I don't judge anyone who makes the opposite decision, and I understand why you would do that, but I think it would be incredibly odd um to turn up somewhere, and I mean my disability is very visible. It's I'm not I'm not, by the way, speaking about people with invisible disabilities, um, but mine is incredibly vi visible, so they would see from the minute they they met me, and and and I and you don't want to start that uh I didn't want to start that date on a lie, really. And also I'm I'm not ashamed of it, as I say. So I was quite I was quite out and proud in in all senses, I think, and that's that's my choice. And again, I wouldn't judge anyone who chose to do it differently. Um, but again, the scene in the radio play uh that's quite similar to um a dating experience I I had, although names, names and places have been changed.

SPEAKER_03

And um I'm asking this question as a straight mindset of forgive me forgiven.

SPEAKER_00

You're forgiven. It's a shame, but you're forgiven.

SPEAKER_03

Are there any particular challenges of being gay and disabled in that intersectionality? For you, have there been any anything as copped up as being?

SPEAKER_00

I think I think um I'll broaden that out slightly again. Um to um to the answer about school in set uh growing up disabled because I don't I don't know any I don't know any different. Well yeah, of course. So so there's slightly that. What I will say is that it's as a writer, it's quite difficult to um get that intersectionality um on screen or stage or or radio or anywhere else, actually. Um they either want you to be the disabled writer or the gay writer, they don't really want you to be both, and that's been quite interesting for me. Um so I don't know if that's significant, but often I feel like I'm I'm I'm being asked to wear different hats when actually they're pretty much the same hat, because they're just me. Um so um so that's been that's been more surprising than I would have thought. And I think um I I sometimes have to um if I do get sort of um stopped in the street and um uh people I don't know if this happens to you, Kieran, but people are very keen to either pray for you or lay their hands on you or things like that. Very evasive with um very invasive, I mean, with um with their with their bodies, which is incredibly strange. Um, you know, they um they're I have to sort of stop and think, is this ableism or homophobia? Which which one am I which one am I responding um to? What do they see? You know, so I think it's um yeah, that I don't think it's been uh more challenging, um, but I think it's been interesting. In a work context, in a writing context, I've I've very rarely been um able to put both parts of myself um into the same piece of work.

SPEAKER_03

That's fascinating, that's fascinating. Thank you for that insight, Tom.

SPEAKER_00

It's important to say it, and and I think um because I'm co-chair of the Equality and Diversity Committee for the Writers Guild of Great Britain, uh I one of the unions in the UK, the Writers Union, and um and uh I'm I'm beginning to learn from hearing other people's stories. It's a role I've taken on fairly recently, but I've been on the committee for a while.

SPEAKER_03

And you're so good at this because this is going to be my next question.

SPEAKER_00

It naturally follows that that it's that it's hard to um uh sometimes it's hard to hear people's stories, but what I have heard a lot is that intersectionality of all kinds is actually the work that we need to start doing um to really get equality, because um often people are seen in one way and one way only. And I thought that this was just this was just my experience as a human being, but I've learnt that actually it's the kind of the new frontier is to to have yourself recognized, because we've all got intersections at some level, whether that's gender, sexuality, disability, you know, colour, race, everything. Um, there are so many intersections, and um so to have those recognized is is the new is the new challenge actually. Um and um so I'm really glad to be able to talk about that because I think it's it's really important to to remember that you're not just one, you're not just one thing, and that might be uh your Welshness or where you're from or whatever. It's it's very hard to be recognised in in more than one, well, it's that dreadful word, isn't it? Category. We're all meant to be put into camps or categories or whatever. I don't want to be put into any category, Karen, I just want to be a person.

SPEAKER_03

It's these things about labels and words, and it all comes back to language, and how we use language to define ourselves, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_00

And we're all words are made up, all words are made up, and language is evolving, and yeah, how we associate meaning to words that's all language doesn't evolve quick enough around feelings and conversations, and and new, you know, we're in we're in a real time, it's interesting, isn't it? We're in a real time of dichotomy because social media and uh the the press are doing all this shouting and it's all very binary and non-nuanced. And then actually the conversations I'm having with people that are in my life are all incredibly nuanced and and interesting. And I um I met someone yesterday who is on the face of it totally different to me, different politically, different in terms of uh social, economic, background, all of those things. And and three-quarters of an hour through the conversation, we were coming home together because we lived very close, um, they were they felt comfortable enough to tell me about their ADHD and autism diagnosis. And and so suddenly we had a a really shared um shared point, and um, and we had a very nuanced conversation. And and that was that was precious because uh they I knew they were telling me because they trusted me and because they knew that I would understand, but I don't think they've told many I don't think they've told many people that so um so that was really special.

SPEAKER_03

Wow, thank you. And what does your role with um the writer's guild involve? What you're doing, what are your aims in your role as the co-chair of the Equality and Diversity Committee?

SPEAKER_00

The the the committee was set up um uh a few years ago to do exactly what it says on the tin, to to um make our industry more equitable and diverse and to and to do that reaching down that I talked about earlier to include everyone. And um it was brilliantly run uh before, and I've just taken over as one of the co-chairs with Miranda Walker, who's a TV writer and children's writer, and is fantastic. And um and our aims are to to listen to um to we want to make the the committee into it's part of a union, so we want to make it into a campaigning um committee a little bit more. It's done quite a lot of campaigning before. We've done things around access riders and we've done things around um equality rights around women, and that work is is still continuing. But we'd like to do some more some more campaigning. We'd like to work across all the committees of the guild and have a representative from from every committee, uh, because we feel that it's not just a a one-committee issue, that equality and diversity, funnily enough, affects everyone and every writer and so and every issue. Um so actually, our aim is to get our tentacles everywhere that we possibly can. And um, yeah, but our our main aims, I suppose, are to to keep fighting and to and I'm fully aware that as a white cis male um I don't know everything and um don't have every experience. So actually um the current aim is to make it sounds so funny, but to make the the committee as diverse as it possibly can be with a multitude of voices and um and then to to work out uh what what work needs to be done. And and I have to say, Kieran, that it's been very sobering uh for me to realise, um, and I suppose I knew it already a little bit, but but but when you're in that role, you start to realise how much work still needs to be done in so many places, and it's wonderful that we sit here being positive and we absolutely should. But for so many people, um, it's really tough out there at the moment. And I don't just mean in terms of work, which is tough, but also the the discrimination that's going on, that the casual I'm just gonna talk about ableism because it's it's why we're here, but I could we could put that with racism, xenophobia, whatever. But the the casual nature of it, that it's absolutely fine to say to someone in a meeting, we're not gonna give you that job because you're disabled or whatever. They're very happy to say it. Um and and that that needs to change. So, so yeah, so the the the aims of the committee are are are in a way clear. Um, and if you're a writer and you're um working professionally, or if you're a student uh writer, then come and join the writers guild, uh, because it's really important that we get as many diverse voices as as you can. And if you feel that you're not uh represented or you're not part of the gang, then feel free to reach out to me and uh we'll have a chat because um if that's something we're not getting to, then we need you and we need your voice, you know.

SPEAKER_03

I I I feel like I should be more involved, then I should be more active within the guild.

SPEAKER_00

So maybe I have to take that as a promise from you, Kieran there.

SPEAKER_03

Uh uh I think we should maybe have a conversation after we record this about how I can.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, I mean again, I caveat all this with with trade unions aren't for everyone. There is a cost involved. That's another that's another thing. Uh, we're trying to make it non-prohibitive, but I really feel that we are. Um, it is better when we have uh a more diverse membership who can bring that experience. And we want to hear from from people, and I would hate it to think that we weren't including as many different kinds of writers as we can. And it's not j also, we should say, it's not just script writers or or writers for theatre, all sorts of mediums are are covered and and very, very welcome. So, um, and it's again, I all I'm ever doing, I think, is trying to find that sense of community. I think that uh to go back to what special school gave me um was was a sense of how can how important community is, actually. And um, and so yeah, so I'm still seeking that community kind of in everything that I I do. It's why I like being in rehearsals and with actors and and so on, you know. Um so yeah, so it's it's no, I I I really enjoy and feel proud of my work with the guild. And I should say that it's all voluntary. So everyone who runs there's a core staff who are paid, but all the activists are are volunteers who are professional writers.

SPEAKER_03

And in terms of the industry, in terms of increasing representation and diversity within the industry, huge question, Tom, as we come to the end of this podcast. But what needs to be done? Do you think? What are the practical steps that you think could be taken to increase that and make a difference?

SPEAKER_00

I am a big fan of quotas. It's not a pol it's not uh a catch-all term, but I I am a big fan of setting of broadcasters and theatres setting quotas until they realise the value that we bring or diverse writers bring, I think they should sort of be made to do made to do it um financially. Um but also I I think um trusting artists always. That's what it comes down to is trust artists and trust their knowledge and their lived experience and that they've got something to say. Um and so and so yeah, I think it's very simple actually, um, in terms of what needs to be done, which is um find the best people who can write the best things or perform the best things and let them tell their stories or tell the stories that they want to tell. Um, you know, that will that will do it. If you if you find the the very best people and you and you look outward and you you really challenge yourself and say, if you're the artistic director of a theatre, does this represent uh does the writers and the actors and so on that in this company represent what I see when I leave my front door in the morning in the United Kingdom? Does this look like the population? Um, you'll you'll pretty much get there, you know what I mean? And then trust them. Don't try and um tell them what they should make um and put your view on it. Let them make the work and tell the stories that they want to make. Enable um, you know, and we found that I was on the I was on the uh selection panel for the um national play commissioning scheme um that we did, and we put out no um thing nothing really about um diversity, we didn't set any quotas or anything. Um, and we we read a lot of stuff blind and as you do when you're selecting plays, and funnily enough, um even by doing it blind, we ended up with probably one of the most diverse lists of plays um that's ever been commissioned, uh, just by going on the stories and the quality of the writing. Now that tells us something, I I think. I took that as a great um uh sort of uh positive point because I felt like um that would uh yeah, that's that's it. That's it really. I I I I don't have it, there aren't any easy answers. The other thing is to um is to listen, you know, is to listen to people's point of view, try and be nuanced, try and um care, and um yeah, and I would say just just just be kind and try and meet people. I I made uh this will make you laugh, Kieran, but um I I I realized uh a couple of years ago that I didn't have any um straight male friends. Um and and I realized that I was out of the conversation around what straight men, straight cis men, uh were talking about. I didn't know about um about what was going on in those spaces, because I'm always in sort of all female spaces and then me or all gay male spaces. And I thought this is this is a real gap in my in my in my knowledge and my understanding. So I went out and I made some really lovely um straight male friends. And and and that has um that was a sort of conscious effort to to to make myself a little bit have a bit more diversity in my in my life, because I didn't have I didn't have those those people there, and I'm very glad to have them. But it was it was I did suddenly think I don't have I don't have all sectors of of what I see when I leave my front door. So so yeah, just be kind, listen, have conversations, and and we will get there. But also I would say to any um commissioner or artistic director, you know, really challenge yourself to to um to make work that you doesn't necessarily speak to you immediately in your experience, you know, and and audiences don't always know because we're in such a time of money is tight, because we're in such a a time of um of taking less risk, um, audiences don't necessarily know what they want until they're given it or what they need. So just um take a take a bit of extra risk this year and you'll do okay.

SPEAKER_03

Thank you very much, Tom. And what Tom is really saying there's Commission he'll say one of my thoughts.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, right now, Commission Kieran, straight straight from there.

SPEAKER_03

Um such important such important words, sir. Thank you so much. Um, my last question for you to finish is what is one thing that you wish people knew about cyrable portsy?

SPEAKER_00

That not everybody is in a wheelchair. I think that would be that it or that or I'll broaden it out, that that's um that it's that it comes in so many different forms and um yeah, that it that we don't all look the same. I suppose that is that is my point, that we don't all look or sound the same, and um yeah, and that it can be it can be a really um brilliant thing, I suppose. That's two points. But yeah, that we that we don't all look the same and uh or or are the same. I don't know if you're gonna be a little bit more than that. I I think I might be leaving that point this month, Tom, that you are uh Well you you know us all, but we did each other.

SPEAKER_03

Tom, it's been a pleasure. Thank you so much for your time.

SPEAKER_00

It's been a treat. Thank you, Kieran, thank you so much.

SPEAKER_03

And thank you for listening or watching this episode of the Porter Podcast. Uh we're coming to the end of the month uh now, but I have two more episodes going up on the 30th and the 35th of March. So please uh like and subscribe and share to anyone who you think might be interested in this kind of content. Thank you again to Tom Whiteworth for joining me today, and I'll see you on the next episode of the Palsy Podcast. But for now, it's goodbye for me and goodbye from Tom. Goodbye. Bye-bye, everyone. Thank you for listening to this episode of the Palsy Podcast with me, Kevin Fitzgerald. I want to thank my guests for joining me, and I hope that you'll stay tuned for the next episode and more to our mark. Thank you.