Ep 6: Methylene Blue

Why is there a current trend in ingesting clothes dye? It sounds horrific but there's nothing but glowing reports on the internet.

In this episode we look at methylene blue - what it has been used for historically, why its currently trending, and the risks involved. 

No advice or bias, just facts from two registered healthcare professionals.  

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:06

Hello and welcome to the Pillars of Health. I'm Dr. Nick Krasner and I'm with Ben Eshelby. And here we are today talking about methylene blue.

SPEAKER_02 0:16

Yeah, well, after our recent episode on energy, uh, we had two episodes on energy, and something just sort of came up in the pharmacy over the last couple of months. And I thought it'd actually be interesting to tie it all in with energy. And that is the sudden rise of methylene blue. We've seen all these celebrities and Jave K Jr. sort of dropping a few little drops of this blue dye into his cup of water on on Air Force One. Yes. And we're getting a few requests for it. So I thought we'd um we'd just have a bit of a chat about that today.

SPEAKER_01 0:48

Yeah, so it has become very very uh popular. I have a lot of patients, or quite a few patients, come in with like a real blue tongue if they're really taking drops on their tongue, uh, which looks like they've eaten sherba like I used to as a kid. So uh so the question is is it worth taking? What is it? What do we know about it? How safe is it? And we're not perfect answering all these questions because I like a lot of these things. The knowledge base and studies haven't really been done. Uh, but I think today let's start with the question: what actually is methylene blue?

SPEAKER_02 1:20

Yeah, well, methylene blue is actually a dye. And well, that was what it was originally used for. It's been used for a number of different things uh throughout history. Most notably, it was used as a malaria treatment in World War II. Yeah, they even used it as a basic sort of antiseptic type agent as well, and that was before penicillins were around. Uh, it's been used as an antiseptic and surgical dye.

SPEAKER_01 1:42

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:44

I don't know, I think it's actually used in in aquariums. I'm not really uh into fish tanks, but yes, I'm I'm not, but it wouldn't surprise me.

SPEAKER_01 1:51

And the other thing is it's sort of used as a slight antidepressant in a way. It's it's what's called a monoamine oxidized inhibitor, which a lot of our listeners may, you know, a similar thing to that would be St. John's Wart. We used in in medicine, we used monoamine oxidized inhibitors quite a lot many years ago, and they've been very much superseded. One of the reasons being monoamine oxidized inhibitors do interact with quite a lot of stuff and have potential.

SPEAKER_02 2:18

Well, all the nice stuff too.

SPEAKER_01 2:19

All the cheese. Yes, it does.

SPEAKER_02 2:21

The cheese reaction.

SPEAKER_01 2:22

It is. So we have to be very careful on methylene blue, you know, with what you're taking and risks. And we'll go into that that in a minute.

SPEAKER_02 2:30

So I think one of the probably one of the other important things to to answer before we we really dive into it, is it legal in Australia? The answer is yes. Um, it it's recently been rescheduled to a prescription-only medicine, yeah, uh, which means you need to go and see a doctor for it. But you know, it's quite it's quite freely available online and people are buying it from you know various kinds of of I don't know, industrial sort of sites. And there's a bit of a question mark about that sort of safety as well, but we'll get into that later on.

SPEAKER_01 3:04

Absolutely, absolutely. So why are people taking it?

SPEAKER_02 3:08

Yeah, look, at the moment, the the real the real reason that people are sort of drawn to it is because of this whole nootropic and which which means obviously uh I guess improving the brain function. Cognitive function, yeah. Yeah, and and anti-aging.

SPEAKER_01 3:23

Yeah, and it's it's a mitochondrial booster. Now, if people have listened to our previous podcast, and if you haven't, please listen because uh I think there's a lot of good information, it increases mitochondrial function. The mitochondrial function is the energy production of the cell. And generally speaking, so many illnesses and issues are due to the fact there's not enough energy in the cell. So if we can increase the energy, often the cell sorts itself out. And because of that, it's thought to be anti-aging. You know, people took it during COVID, thinking it can help with brain fog and you know, and long COVID and neurodentative diseases and problems.

SPEAKER_02 4:00

So that's a that's a really big one because there's a lot of people still suffering with long COVID, and which there's very few things that that we are in on the drawing board to fix that.

SPEAKER_01 4:11

It is. I mean, the problem we have with it, and I'm reiterating this and probably a few times, is that there isn't enough studies to say yes or no. That's right. So again, we are not suggesting anyone takes the takes this, we're just here to to discuss that. That's exactly right.

SPEAKER_02 4:26

And it's something that you would need to discuss with your doctor. And only they would know the risks and benefits of of trialling something like that for your specific.

SPEAKER_01 4:36

Absolutely. It's also something that I have prescribed, you know. So and probably unless there's more evidence out there, I probably wouldn't be prescribing it at this point in time.

SPEAKER_02 4:47

No, that's right. Because it it it does, like it is dosed at a very different sort of range for different conditions.

SPEAKER_01 4:53

It is. I mean, what because you obviously know people you've got friends and know who who've taken, etc. What have they reported on how it affects them?

SPEAKER_02 5:02

Yeah, look, I've spoken to people before and and I've seen people taking doses of you know 50 milligrams for various sorts of things, and and you know, they'll say nothing, they don't notice any effect at all. But I've also spoken to people who have taken low doses of like three milligrams, and they've said it actually makes them feel scattered and and somewhat a little bit jumpy.

SPEAKER_01 5:25

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 5:26

And not only that, like you find like it's um it's one of these things that you can you can take for a little while, but but as soon as you stop, I've also had people reporting that they feel this overwhelming depressant depression that that sort of comes as a result of stopping it.

SPEAKER_01 5:41

And that would make sense because if it is an antidepressant, it's a monoamine oxide inhibitor, like St. John's wart, then stopping it suddenly can be difficult. I know when I've got patients on, you know, our medications, our antidepressants, we don't really like stopping it very quickly. We like to gradually reduce for the brain to be able to cope with that. So it's so the main two things, as as we said before, I mean it's an electron carrier in the mitochondria, which increases ATP and ATP, the more ATP you've got is great. There's some discussion that it reduces oxidative stress, which of course is good.

SPEAKER_02 6:19

And although you it would also potentially put it under oxidative stress as well, because you know the whole process that happens in the mitochondria is a oxidation reaction.

SPEAKER_01 6:30

It is, it is. So, you know, so so that's that's an important thing to start thinking about. So of course, one of the questions is of course, are there any risks with with this?

SPEAKER_02 6:42

Well, the big one is the the most obvious one that everyone sort of gets, and it was known way back in in the Second World War is everything goes blue. Yes. And that means it starts with your weed until your eyeballs go blue because you're growing blue tears, and you just turn into a smurf.

SPEAKER_01 6:58

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 7:00

So that's that's one of the most common side effects. But yeah, but as we said, like I mean, probably the biggest risk is the effect the effect that it has on the serotonin system in the body.

SPEAKER_01 7:12

I mean, there's a rare condition called serotonin syndrome, which can happen with some of the medicines we give, and it can cause a lot of upsets and even high blood pressure, and it you know, and that can be very, very dangerous.

SPEAKER_02 7:24

Um hypertension and cardiac.

SPEAKER_01 7:27

A lot of problems with that, yeah. And so all of those are are potentially there. Again, there's no real data that I could find to suggest that it caused that, but of course, it seems to be a definite concern.

SPEAKER_02 7:41

And also there's a risk for people taking antidepressants. Yeah. Various other medicines like pethidane and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_01 7:47

Yeah, it is, because there are some some interactions, but I mean there are, you know, we looked up. Are there any contraindications for that? The contraindications where you definitely shouldn't be taking it. G6PD deficiency, pregnancy, breastfeeding, taking any other medicines that are anti-depressants, severe kidney problems, and it psychiatric instability. So one has to be really cautious with this, with taking methylene blue. I don't think it's just a simple, yeah, I can take it, it won't do me any harm, it might give me some energy. I think, you know, if you want something like that, I would personally be thinking creatine might be a better, safer thing, especially at low doses. And again, people can start listening to our previous podcast because we do talk about creatine, about that.

SPEAKER_02 8:33

But so, yeah, so it's uh So in in summary, I mean, look, it's a fairly safe sort of thing, but as with everything that we sort of see as being fairly safe, there's there are risks, and and the the risk-benefit ratios for whatever you're trying to achieve really need to be overlooked by someone that knows what they're doing.

SPEAKER_01 8:54

Yeah, and the things that you shouldn't have, they they suggest that you avoid tyramine-rich foods. This includes aged cheeses, which I love. All the life stuff. Yeah, cured cured meats, salami, pepperoni, fermented products like soy sauce and miso, sauerkraut, tap beers, some red wines, overripe foods, you know, and this could could could make you extremely sick.

SPEAKER_02 9:17

And this is the that's the cheese reaction.

SPEAKER_01 9:19

That's the cheese reaction.

SPEAKER_02 9:20

Any any young pharmacy student will know about the cheese reaction. Yeah when you got taught that to death. You uh you try a monoamine oxidase inhibitor for as an antidepressant. Uh, and the one thing that you've got to tell people is don't eat cheese. So, yeah, if you're gonna have the blue, don't uh don't have it, knock it down with a pizza or something like that.

SPEAKER_01 9:40

Yeah. So interestingly enough, we did look at to see if there was any research. There's a little bit of research on methylene blue. Again, it's very hard to know how good this research is, but it was being researched as a potential photosensitizer in photodynamic therapy to kill cancer cells. This was in the Society of France de pharmacologique, if I've said that right. It's obviously a French publication.

SPEAKER_02 10:04

Yeah, well, they they photodynamic therapy is used quite a lot, so uh just to be just to be accurate for skin cancers and and basal cell carcinomas.

SPEAKER_01 10:15

Yeah, and this they were actually looking at as potential effective against ovarian breast lung all cancers. Uh it's not FDA approved in America. Again, it showed some prom some promise, but uh yeah, it was suggesting that the uh methylene blue can target cancer cells, metabolism, and energy production, and therefore reducing tumor growth. So interesting study. Again, it wouldn't be something if somebody's got if you've got a cancer or anything, again, there's not enough evidence to be using it from that point of view. And certainly I would be, if you are thinking of using it, I would certainly be speaking to your oncologist or your or your GPS. The appropriate thing. So it's I mean, the interesting things with these is in five, ten years we may do another podcast and be saying, yeah, do take it. But at the moment, you know, we we don't we don't have the answer to that.

SPEAKER_02 11:08

It's it's not a vitamin and it's not an essential nutrient. And I think the most important thing to anyone that's thinking of biohacking everything that you do has a consequence. Yeah. So if you speed something up, you're going to be toting it from some other system in the body. Uh, we don't know what that is with methylene blue, but I would almost guarantee that there'll be something there.

SPEAKER_01 11:27

Yeah, I think the general thing of medicine is the word balance. Everything needs to be balanced out and finding that balance point for you. So if somebody's taking this, probably you need to take it at a certain level, not overdosing on it, and obviously looking whether it helps or not yourself. Uh as I said, we do not recommend it. We're not saying don't take it. It's it's some it's something for people to do.

SPEAKER_02 11:52

This is just a discussion.

SPEAKER_01 11:53

This is just a discussion. What I love about these discussions, and especially these things, because lots are coming out, is more research is being done on things. So there's lots of potential things that can really help. But what I've noticed in life is the longer you research things, the more you understand it, the more you find side effects you never even thought about or risks you never thought about. So that's it.

SPEAKER_02 12:15

And and if you are going to be doing something like methylene blue, the safest and easiest way, you find a doctor uh and a pharmacist that understand what you're trying to achieve and why, and they can give you a full risk analysis on that.

SPEAKER_01 12:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:28

Uh and you'll also, if you you get your your methylene blue compounded or you you get it made through a pharmacy, uh, you can be guaranteed that it's going to be of a pharmaceutical grade quality.

SPEAKER_01 12:40

Yeah. You may find that a lot of your GPs, because the understanding and the evidence isn't there, may well prefer not to prescribe.

SPEAKER_02 12:47

That's right. It's a it's a specialized field.

SPEAKER_01 12:49

Yeah, it is a specialised field. And I think one has to be reasonable to the GP. That's right. They're not allowed to prescribe things that they don't feel it is safe or they know understand the safety of. That's exactly right. I think that's really important.

SPEAKER_02 13:01

And the same as the pharmacist, we we can't give out anything that we we think might someone.

SPEAKER_01 13:06

Yeah, absolutely. So so I think that's a reasonable look at methylene blue.

SPEAKER_02 13:12

I think so. Yeah. I think that's a pretty good uh snapshot.

SPEAKER_00 13:15

We could talk about it until we're blue in the face. Sorry, terrible. I probably should edit that out, but I won't.

SPEAKER_02 13:23

Oh well, I think that's about us. I think there's nothing more to contribute on that note.

SPEAKER_01 13:28

Um I hope everyone takes care. Has a lovely, lovely day, lovely week. I've been Dr. Nick Krasner.

SPEAKER_02 13:33

And I'm Ben Eshelbe.

SPEAKER_01 13:34

And this has been the Pillars of Health. Goodbye.