Fundraising, Careem and the AI Bubble | The Mal show (Podcast) with Wael Nafee

In this episode of The MAL Show (Podcast), we sit down with Wael Nafee — former Careem executive and now Partner at Raed Ventures, one of the region’s leading venture capital firms.

Wael has seen both sides of the table:
• building companies as an operator
• and backing founders as an investor

After studying and working abroad, he made the decision to come back and build in the region.

In this conversation, we discuss:

• Why some founders choose to return and build in emerging markets
• The culture of money and capital in the Middle East
• What Sharia-compliant fundraising actually looks like in venture capital
• Whether ethical constraints make companies weaker — or more disciplined
• The responsibility that comes with building products used by millions

And perhaps the most important question:

When your capital shapes companies used by millions of people…
what do you owe society?

A conversation about nation building, capital with consequence, and the moral weight behind scale.

We hope you enjoy this episode and don't forget to subscribe to our channel to get the latest episodes of the Mal Show.

Chapters:
00:00 Intro and Wael's journey 
10:28 Sources of Fundraising 
17:51 Sharia compliance Fundraising
23:09 Careem's positioning & acquisition
27:06 Careem's culture
33:23 Joining Raed Ventures
40:15 What do Investors look for?
44:32 Self assessment, correction & reflections
52:26 Money & Culture
57:55 Women & Money
1:01:12 Final advice on money

To get in touch with us: 
podcast@mal.ai

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https://www.linkedin.com/in/youssefsamysalem/?skipRedirect=true
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To get in touch with Wael Nafee
https://www.linkedin.com/in/wael-nafee-2b78abb/

#themalshow #fintech #islamicfinance #entrepreneur #podcast

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

I would say fundraising should be seen by people as a measure of last resort. You're only fundraising because you feel there's absolutely no other way to manifest this vision except when you need to fundraise.

SPEAKER_00 0:12

What are these other sources of capital? Because you have a lot of founders who are building great businesses, not necessarily classic tech, they're like content businesses or offline, etc.

SPEAKER_01 0:21

What do they do? There was something special about the way Kareem built their internal culture, right? There's always this thing like once a Karimer, always a Karimer, because you feel that there's a broader responsibility towards making people's lives better.

SPEAKER_00 0:32

Where does the ethic responsibility lie here? Where do you differentiate between giving users what they want, actually making their life easier, and between not over pushing them to necessarily over-consume or overextend their means or maybe do unnecessarily spend on the app?

SPEAKER_01 0:48

Also running after every trend? Because the fact of the matter is, out of every 10 AI companies, I would say nine of them are fluff.

SPEAKER_00 0:54

You mentioned the dot-com bubble, do you think we're in an AI bubble? Assalamu alaikum and welcome to the Mal Show. In this conversation, we discuss the culture of money in emerging markets, what Sharia compliant fundraising actually looks like in venture, and whether ethical constraints make you weaker or more disciplined. And maybe most importantly, when your capital shapes companies used by millions, what do you, oh society? This is a conversation about nation building, capital with consequence, and the moral weight behind scale. One of the most iconic tech stories to come out of this region, a product used by millions, operating across multiple countries, navigating regulation, culture, scale, and capital all at once. And when you build something at that scale, you realize quickly, products are not neutral. Capital is not neutral, and growth is never just growth. One of the most iconic tech stories to come out of this region is Karim. That's why our today's guest was a key part of that journey, Wael Nafa, former Karim executive, now partner at RAE Adventures, an investor backing founders across the region. Someone who's seen both sides of the table, operator and capital locator. He studied and worked abroad, then made the decision to come back and build here. Not out of sentiment, but due to you. I hope you enjoy this episode and don't forget to subscribe to our channel to get the least episodes of the Mal Show. Let's begin. Well, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for having me. It's our first episode that we are recording in Ramadan. Thank you for joining us and doing this while you're fasting. It's a pleasure. I hope I have the energy for this. How intensive?

SPEAKER_01 2:39

I'm feeling good. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:41

How's Ramadan in the in the U? I think you've been uh you've you've started your life more in like Canada and the U.S.

SPEAKER_01 2:46

No, actually, I was born Abu Dhabi.

SPEAKER_00 2:47

Born Abu Dhabi. Yeah. But you studied in Canada and the US.

SPEAKER_01 2:49

Studied in Canada, worked in the US and worked in Egypt for a bit, and then back here again. I've been here for almost 11 years. Feels like I'm back home.

SPEAKER_00 2:56

How different is Ramadan here?

SPEAKER_01 2:59

First of all, I mean Ramadan now, the weather is amazing. Uh if you had asked us like six, six, seven years ago, it would have been like closer to the summer, it was very hot. But I I love the weather now. It's making the fast so much easier. And what brought you back to the region? Uh I came back to the region really to join Karim. So I was uh this was in 2015. I came back. Well, to the region well to to UAE. The region first. I wanted to the region. Egypt first. Okay. So when I came back to Egypt, it was because I wanted to, I was building my first startup. Okay. Um I was I worked in the tech scene. I was in the Silicon Valley for many years, and I wanted to do my own thing. I also wanted to kind of uh move with the family back home. I wanted to have like I want them to pick up our culture a bit, get them exposed to our culture, and I wanted to do my own startup. So kind of these collided together, and I ended up doing my first startup in Egypt, uh, between Egypt and the US, and then did that for a couple of years, and then I ended up joining Karim here as an early stage startup. And uh that's what brought me back to uh UAE in general, but Dubai in specific.

SPEAKER_00 4:03

Now you went back to Egypt. You said to build your first uh business after having spent a lot of time in the in the US working in different businesses. Why did you take that decision to build on your own and how was it like?

SPEAKER_01 4:15

Yeah, so I I I had multiple compounded intentions uh uh for for that move. Obviously, one part of it was the I wanted to move for the family. The other part of it was that, you know, wrongly, so I wanted to build a startup. And uh that was Why wrongly? Because I don't think that's a that's a good motivation. Like to build, you know, you build a startup because you feel that you know I need to build this thing because I'm feeling so passionate about it and it's it's it doesn't exist and it needs to this thing that I need to build needs to exist. But sometimes it's just um this is one of the things that everyone becomes a founder because it's the cool thing to do. So I think that was uh true. I was very young at that time, uh still. But the other part was that I I don't talk about this a lot, but this is uh a big part of kind of uh I I feel that a lot of times we have amazing, brilliant minds that come from this part of the world. And they feel that opportunities only exist whenever they go to the Silicon Valley. And to be honest, there are many, many opportunities there. And I think it's great for people to kind of work there and get experience and you know, whatever their field is, and my field was tech. So obviously Silicon Valley was like the hub of everything tech, but then you know, if someone's in finance, someone, there are many different other hubs, maybe New York or maybe London or what have you. A lot of times people get that experience, but then they stay and they never come back. And that annoyed me, right? Why is it that our brightest people who end up proving that they're the most successful or they're able to be very, very successful, but they never come back? How about how about we have this reverse brain drain? I want people to come back here and build for here. Our countries need to be better, and we need these brains to come here. So I thought, you know, I had uh at that point in my career, about like six, five, six years of career of my career in the Silicon Valley. And I was like, man, I don't want to get sucked in there. I, you know, I'm gonna get comfortable because life can get comfortable, and you're um you're you're pulled by you know the being on the bleeding edge of tech all the time. And and I was like, okay, I need to come back because I wanted to think about building here. And I think that was uh like a another kind of core part of my intention because I really, really believe that we owe it to our people and our countries to start building here as well. Alhamdulillah, I mean, if you if you look at when I first moved back, it was late 2010. Um back then the startup ecosystem was almost uh like nothing, right?

SPEAKER_00 6:47

Why before we get to the startup ecosystem, where is the sense of duty owing it coming from? Is this religion? Is this nationalism? Why do you have that sense of duty?

SPEAKER_01 6:56

It's not nationalism. I'll tell you, I have a very I mean, I mean, I was I'm an Egyptian who was born in Abu Dhabi, so and and and I lived in Canada and now I have a I'm a Canadian citizen as well. So I have like three nationalities and whatever. So I don't know where my loyalties stand. I think overall, um, there are there are multiple types of loyalties. There's loyalties that are inherited. Like I'm Egyptian. It's an inherited loyalty, and I'll always love Egypt because you know, family is there, I have amazing good memories there as visiting as a summer, and you know, I don't think that'll ever change, and that's okay. But I think after a while you have chosen loyalties, like you have ideas that you feel loyal to. I feel loyal to uh to my identity being Muslim. It's a chosen identity. I mean, fine, you could have said it, it was inherited because I was born Muslim, but it gets to a point where when someone starts thinking, why am I doing all of this? And should I be a practicing Muslim? Should I be this? Should I be that? When I went through that journey, I was like, you know what, I I feel like it's the right thing to do. I got to a conviction that I needed to be a bit more practicing Muslim. So I feel like I chose Islam again, right? I re-chose it again. I went back to my roots. I remembered all of what I was raised with, and I was like, you know, that what I felt was is what I felt was the was right. And because of that, I feel that my my loyalty is really stemming from my faith. Um I I have uh, and because of that, I feel that there's a duty to contribute to our countries as much as we can. When we do that, we benefit the world, we benefit society, everyone benefits. Um, and I feel I felt a little bit like envious. Why, why is it that we always build for others? Why don't we build for ourselves? And I think that sense of duty is what uh I think that stemmed from my faith, um, made me want to come back and contribute positively. Um and I was always thinking of how we could do that. And um, you know, my my thoughts on that evolved over the years of how I can do more. And and and you know, you were asked, you were just saying, I was just saying something about the startup ecosystem. I think many people right now are what they want to move back to this part of the world, they want to move back to UAE, they want to move back to Egypt, they want to move back to uh, you know startup ecosystems that are looking still early, but looking like they're on the right track in terms of momentum.

SPEAKER_00 9:17

And why did you believe the startup ecosystem at that point in time, kind of early as you described it, was the right place to fulfill that duty?

SPEAKER_01 9:25

Everyone finds their place. I mean, just because of my kind of education and you know, I study computer engineering, it was kind of like a natural thing for me to get into. If I was in finance, maybe I would have taken a different route, who knows? But the idea, the idea is that I, living in the Silicon Valley, seeing startups left, right, and center, uh, you know, you you you get out of one road into another, you find another startup of another startup. And it's just like a startup at every corner. And being around that felt like maybe that was something. The other thing is startups generally, with the way that they're run, um, you know, there's a lot of fast growth, accelerated growth. And within a short amount of time, relatively speaking, there are some, you know, some of the big massive companies took like decades to build, but then startups sometimes within five to ten years, with less than a decade, they become massive. So it felt like maybe like a life hack shortcut to accelerating impact in our countries. And that's what I thought maybe I should try to figure that out.

SPEAKER_00 10:27

With that growth comes burn of kind of of capital, comes losses, comes, etc. How how do you reconcile that back with with again with your faith, which some people may look at as a bit more conservative, more focused on capital custodianship, on capital preservation? So, how do you bring it together?

SPEAKER_01 10:47

I think in general, okay, remember when I was telling you one of the wrong mindsets I have was I wanted to be a founder, a startup fund because maybe that felt a little bit cool. I I think a lot of times people go through the motions of what they think a startup should be doing rather than thinking really, really uh carefully about what they should be doing. Part of it is even fundraising itself. Like there are many startup or many ideas that I don't think you should be raising money for from traditional venture capital, for example. There are other sources of money. Um, part of it is the way you execute. Maybe there are some business models where you require a huge amount of scale before it can start monetizing. For example, social networks. Uh, social networks' main primary uh monetization comes from building ad networks, and and and ad networks only comes from density, and density only comes from like and the whole thing about social media. So you can't say I have 100,000 users and I'm gonna build a social network and start building my ad network. You know, you need to get to millions and millions and millions of daily active users. That's the type of business model that requires scale to begin to monetize. Um, but there are some other business models that you can start monetizing from day one. The question is when people think that they're supposed to kind of burn and scale and scale without, and we're like, we'll finish, we'll figure out the unit economics later, we'll figure out the sustainability later. Um, that in itself is not the problem. It's the problem when it's applied universally and incorrectly to any business model just because they feel that that's what everyone seems to be doing. And that's where, again, being mindful, just like don't go for it because go, don't go and be a founder or don't start going through motions of executing your company or your business in a certain way because everyone's doing that. It's just almost always gonna get you to the wrong path. I think it's always being mindful and and deliberate about every decision. And in some cases, the right thing to do is to accelerate and burn more. Sometimes that is the right decision. But in many other cases, that's the antithesis to what you should be doing and you should be a little bit more conscious. So Annie, I think everything needs to be everything needs to be deliberate and stop going with the flow. Just because everyone is doing something. It's just, you know, try to be genuine, uh, really, really think through. And that requires honestly a lot of self-reflection and honesty, right? A lot of times people kid themselves into, oh, of course that's what they need. Um, when people ask other people for advice, people self-filter the advice that uh that uh they already are in alignment with and they amplify that in their in their minds a bit more. So it requires this level of self-discipline and honesty as well when making decisions.

SPEAKER_00 13:25

But what are these other sources of capital? Because you have a lot of founders who are building great businesses, not necessarily classic tech, they're like content businesses or offline, etc. And then they get stuck because banks tell them it's too early to give you any any money. Uh VCs tell them this is not this is not tech. Strategic investors come in and say I need to take like half of the company for writing the first the first check. And then they're like they're almost forced to try to make it look like tech so they can go to VCs. So what do they do?

SPEAKER_01 13:53

Yanni, okay. So I I think in general uh sources of sources of funding um or in general, I would say fundraising is should be seen by people as uh a measure of last resort. You're only fundraising because you feel there's absolutely no other way to manifest this vision except uh when you need to fundraise. If you've reached that conclusion, then we can talk about like where do you get that money from. But a lot of times many companies can be built differently where they can be bootstrapped and uh kind of self-sustainable with steady solid growth um from day one. Not necessarily day one, but let's say within like month three or year one, where your own personal savings and maybe friends and family and you know can can can can fundraise you, that can can help you get to your fundraising goal, and that's sufficient. Um I think many people don't realize that anyone that's giving you money has okay. So everyone okay, so let's take a step back. People think when someone gives you money, they expect to make money, okay, and that's natural. And I think they stop there. And the reality of the matter is what success means in making money uh even looks different depending on the source of capital. So, for example, let's take traditional venture capital. Traditional venture capital capital would never look at a business that generates you know uh 15% annual dividends as technically a success because I wasn't going for 15% dividends as my goal. They've constructed profiles. The way venture capital funds work is that they do portfolio construction that is extremely high risk, and therefore they're okay with many failures in their portfolio, but the few that succeed need to be like crazy huge successes, outliers on the power curve, that they uh mitigate all of those losses and more. So if I build a business that is giving me 15% dividends, in in the in the power law scale, it looks like closer to the zero, right? 15% annual uh distribution of money is closer to zero than it is to 100x, right? From from that perspective, 0.15 or 1.15 uh versus 100x. Um versus uh if you go to um an if you ask a normal person, I have a business that generates a million dollars of turnover a year and is generating 15% annual difference by any human being's measure. That's a very successful business, and you should be very proud of yourself. Um and and that's what I mean by interrogating the sources of capital, making sure that we all want to make money is not good of a metric because how you want to make money, how people construct portfolios uh is different. There are many um angel investors that are okay with uh you know getting that type of return. Um and um there are many um, you know, you know, challenges with you know getting money from banks and others that has other challenges as well, because maybe they're not um uh you know the way they assess companies is is very traditional based on you know uh certain cash flow statements, and maybe you're in the beginning you don't have uh all of this like paperwork to be able to kind of justify the risk that they have. But I think in the region there are many more um growing sources of uh, you know, people providing credit for SMEs uh and others that look at other ways of underwriting businesses. It's still early, but it's it's growing. Um but I think it comes back first to recognizing that um raising money from anyone should be a last resort thing because you feel that there's no other way to do it other than that. And I don't mean like no other way to do it because my business is about to die and I need a quick injection. I mean like the idea itself, you know, absent any emergencies requires that uh in order to fundraise, in order to proceed.

SPEAKER_00 17:51

Now, there are founders who then add another uh layer of that, which is requiring a sharia compliant uh funding, which on the credit side further limits options, but sometimes even on the equity side, because some founders, for example, would argue they don't want to go with safes because of the uncertain uh valuation on that, etc. And a lot of times they're kind of left in between. On one hand, they're kind of worried that if they take an instrument, it may be impermissible, but if they don't take it, then maybe they don't scale and they don't create the impact that you talked about. And with these instruments, they can create jobs and they can build their nations. So, how do they kind of think about this balance?

SPEAKER_01 18:29

With specifically, okay, so with specifically safes, I know that the problem with this is that I I don't know if there is a universal opinion on safes. I I think there are many aspects of it that people find they're not sure about. I think we need to rely on some of the scholars to tell us like you know what is permissible and what's not. Um but to your point though, there are different instruments that uh many people are not comfortable with, uh, and it does limit them. There are there are the people who believe that safes are problematic, there are alternatives to it. Um I was really I was someone had forwarded something to me uh might have been like six months ago or something about like another thing called alkal note or something that tries to solve some of the um uh challenges or you know uncomfortable aspects of a safe note or uh and and that sort of thing. There are alternatives. I think people are looking for alternatives. I think the best thing to do is to make sure that you don't give up too quickly. A lot of times people are like, oh, but I have to, there's no other choice, and then you go with the conventional route. I think you know, having, you know, if you are convinced, first of all, that this is not something that you're comfortable taking. And sometimes there are differences of opinion on some of the matters. So I would say kind of learn about that form an opinion, obviously consult with the scholars that have knowledge uh about some of these topics. Um, but but at the end of the day, um, if you believe something is impermissible, I think it's probably better for you to maybe that's a sign that you should kind of like pause and it's okay to like forego kind of uh what you think is going to be amazing uh kind of a trajectory if you take this thing because you never know what the future holds. So I think it's better to kind of straight, stray, stay true to your values, but also don't kind of be complacent about like, oh okay, everyone says it's this, but everyone who's everyone. Let's talk, let's understand, let's get into the details, let's understand what are the issues. Maybe some things are very easy to be fixed through small changes in the contract to make sure that the things are um are made uh you know more aligned.

SPEAKER_00 20:31

Do you believe in signs? Some people say just a way to comfort yourself or lead yourself into whatever the outcome is.

SPEAKER_01 20:39

I mean, yes, theoretically and principally, I do believe in the signs. The only problem is that I am afraid that my nerfs is pushing me to virtually create these signs. So the question is, it requires a huge amount of self-discipline. Like someone says, Oh, I was thinking of uh doing this kind of business transact transaction that has, I don't know, riba or something, and but I know it's wrong, but I got a I got a good feeling about it. I was like, okay, really? I mean, what does that mean? Right? Many people do a lot of wrong things uh but get a good feeling about it. It's not a measure on its own. I think step number one, measure the measure number one is um, are you true to the if you're true to the akkam with the right interpretation that the scholars will will will guide us in, then then you're good. And then the feeling comes after. It's not like feeling comes first and then you know, then we figure out does it fit, or sometimes the feeling is there, but I know it's wrong, but it felt good. You know, I was like, uh I think we're kind of kidding ourselves a bit. So I think I do believe in signs and feelings and all of these things, but like in the hierarchy of steps, it's it has its place. It's not the starting thing and it's not like the very last thing. I mean, it'd probably be on the tail end of things a bit.

SPEAKER_00 21:50

So what's the sign or the feeling that took you from Egypt to to Karim?

SPEAKER_01 21:54

That's not a that's not a like a right and wrong Islamic decision. It's more of like uh that you can rely on feelings. Because it's like you do your homework as well. Um you do your homework and you and you and you you look at things and then at the end of the day you don't know what's what the future is gonna hold. So you just you know you pray, do stakharah you like you know, I hope this turns out for the best. I've really done my research and then tobacco at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_00 22:17

You're happy with the decision? With the decision.

SPEAKER_01 22:20

No, it was a life-changing decision. So in hindsight, absolutely. Was I worried about it? Yeah, absolutely. Alhamdulillah, stakharah in that case worked, but it was it was a very scary decision. It was like a big move, and you know, startups, uh the failure rate of startups is very high. So you're going to a startup and then maybe six months later it dies or doesn't, and you never know. So the fact that I ended up uh working, you know, coming to a company that ended up being like the largest to date kind of uh acquisition exit and a tech company in the region uh is not something I uh I thought would happen. I did think there was something special about the company because I did a lot of research and I checked the company, uh spoke to the founders, but I didn't ever think it was gonna be it was gonna be that big, just to be clear. I never anticipated that size of outcome.

SPEAKER_00 23:09

Now, with that scale, obviously you end up with millions of users, transactions, consumer behavior, and it's a it's a super app, right? You're it which means by definition, you are kind of pushing consumers to consume more, consume multiple uh services, get more done. Where does the ethical responsibility lie here? Where do you differentiate between giving users what they want and actually making their life easier and giving them the service, which is a very noble mission, and between not over pushing them to necessarily over-consume or overextend their means, or maybe do unnecessarily spend on the on the app?

SPEAKER_01 23:47

Yeah, I think it's the way you position your, I think it's it's the way you position your brand, it's the way that you position your messaging to customers. Uh, is it always like, oh, quick before this runs out, quick? And then it's like pushing through excessive consumerism, or like, you know, we're there when you need us all the time, you know, type of thing. Uh people are gonna, they need things in their life. They need uh someone to clean their home, they need someone to, you know, help get their help them with their shopping, they need someone to take their kids from A to B, or either themselves or through others. These things are gonna happen in daily life. And the question is, how do you position your company and your brand in such a way that you say, whenever you need us, we're gonna be there, versus quick discount now, blah, blah, blah, and whatever. So I I think it's the way you conduct yourself. Um, it's a fine line. Uh, you have to be kind of true to your to your values, but it can be easily done by being deliberate about how you want to position yourself as a company and as a brand.

SPEAKER_00 24:40

Now, you came back all the way to build something out of here. You are part of building the biggest thing, as you said, the got built out of here. Now, the ending for that was uh having an international giant come in and do that that biggest acquisition. Is that the kind of the desired end? Is that a testament to the success of building from here? Or is that showing that still the journey had to end at some point and we had to almost end with the same playbook of we're back to the international. Maybe we ran to 3 billion before the international got in, but at the end it's a familiar ending. How do you think about it?

SPEAKER_01 25:16

To be honest, I mean, it first of all, as an outcome, it was a great outcome. Um, I think people um underestimate kind of like the the secondary and tertiary effects of this acquisition on a lot of people's lives. Karim made uh many, many, many millionaires, right? And many of these people uh went on to build other startups. Many of them are doing well. Uh, many of them are um actually themselves prolific angel investors because of that. So I think if you ask me, the compound effect of that outcome is important. I think you also have to recognize something that the startup ecosystem is still very nascent. And one of the biggest questions that uh international investors always ask about the region is is exits, is there liquidity? At the end of the day, oh okay, great, paper money here, the company's value that that, but I can't liquidate it. Is it really something? So people look at DPI, people look at liquidity, people look at exits. And I think that proves that there are there is a path to exit. There are some others who've tried IPOing, there are some others who've got acquired all the big outcomes that shows the region is uh is able to produce an exit. And I think if you ask me the fact that Karim proved that with that size of exit, I think the overall impact to the region was much, much larger. Because of that, many years afterwards, there was an influx of international investors looking to invest in startups in the region. The net amount of capital that flowed into the region collectively, because people now believed that it is possible, I would say is much higher of a secondary effect than people realized. So, yes, got acquired by a by a third party, but I think it enabled this region's story to continue further much more than just that exit.

SPEAKER_00 27:06

Now you said it created many millionaires who you described as having gone on to build or to become angel investors. Uh, maybe you didn't say some of them went to buy a car or buy a house, etc. Is that is that true that majority of the people actually ended up staying? And if so, how was this culture? What do you attribute this behavior to as opposed to me people saying, look, I've been an employee, now I got my life security. Let me think about either how do I enjoy life or how do I put that money in a secure way that kind of secures me for the rest of my life?

SPEAKER_01 27:35

You know, I'm sure many people bought their homes and bought their cars. Okay, but I think, listen, I think there was something special about the way Kareem built their internal culture, right? Kareem's mission statement was to simplify and improve people's lives, right? Lives, right? And I think people really, really believed that. And until this day, people live and breathe that. There's always this saying, like, what once a Karimer, always a Karimer, because like you want to you're you feel that there's a broader responsibility towards uh making people's lives better. And you know, Karim was doing it through its domain that it was operating in. I think people, when they reflect on that broadly in their lives, um everyone's thinking, man, the startup ecosystem, maybe I like it, I like this founder, maybe I'll support him. Uh, but it's not it's not like a charity. I'm not giving money to another founder because like I just want to support you. In that case, maybe your name is charity. You'll get the edge of charity. But if you're saying to yourself, man, this is this this founder is amazing, they're doing something great. I need to support them. They need to, this product needs to see the light of day. This it needs to be in the hands of customers, and you're are you doing that? So many people are angel investing and all of these things. But I think the idea that fine, I can enjoy whatever wealth I have, but I feel a sense of responsibility now that I need to do something more, I think very much was uh inculcated in the mission of Karim, whether people realized it or not. Um, and that's the reason why the Karim's mission resonated personally with me as well, because I came back to the region because I wanted to do something for the region, and Karim's mission helps me fulfill my personal mission through Karim's mission and and and it continues. And I think if people build and and founders build companies that are truly um deep in terms of their mission and values beyond the exact business that they're in, um the impact can be much larger.

SPEAKER_00 29:27

You mentioned the culture of Karim that it managed to maintain even until a three billion dollars. When numbers become so big and stakes become so high, how do you maintain this culture? How do you keep this moral clarity?

SPEAKER_01 29:40

Yeah, I think um I think you know, when you become large as a company, um it becomes tougher to steer and navigate. It's it's very hard. You're you're hiring a lot of people, you need to kind of uh infect them with your culture, right? You need to infect them with your culture quickly, uh as opposed to uh you know losing your culture over time. Um I think um I think it really comes as a testament to the founders, Mudasser and Magnus and Abdullah. They were it's it's it's something that they always speak about. It's it's it's something that seeps into their language when they speak to us about like, you know, can we even be more Karim? You know, playing on the words of Karim and Karam in Arabic, right? Being generous. Uh uh there's a thing that that happens um, you know, whenever something doesn't, it's like that doesn't seem very Karim. You know, it's like things like this where everyone knows what it means. So I I I think I think it's in the languages, the way you conduct yourself. Um, they were very deliberate. You know, we were um there was a culture handbook where we kind of everyone in, you know, if you're joining Karim for the first time, everyone goes through the culture handbook. Everyone gets kind of like indoctrinated, so to speak, with the values of Karim to make sure that you're living it uh as it was meant to be, as it was intended by the uh by the founders, as opposed to like everyone just kind of going off, it's like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Karim means you should do this or whatever. It's like, no, that's what you need to be. So I think there was a very deliberate culture building uh and cultural indoctrination, and it it is not words, it was kind of manifesting in the way uh behaviors of the founders and and leaders were overall. That I think is the best way to make sure that it's not like slogans that people say.

SPEAKER_00 31:26

How do you balance this indoctrination, infection, almost building a contagious culture versus more bottom-up approach where people can find themselves, reflect on the place, and almost come up with their own? Do you believe a culture should be crowdsourced, built from the bottom, or a culture should be, as you said, kind of almost infected into the organization?

SPEAKER_01 31:49

Remember, we were talking about um, you know, my personal mission, because I, you know, I had a personal mission, but I felt that I could fulfill my mission via Karim's mission. Uh and I think the the artist figuring out something that is uh specific enough that it means something, but broad enough that everyone can figure out how they can contribute in their own unique way. And that finding the right balance to articulate mission, vision, culture in that way is a very difficult exercise. And I a lot of times people kind of like pick a mission statement or whatever for their company, and it's very broad. But I the amount of, you know, the details that went into building Karim's culture handbook. I remember this was like a multi, multi-quarter effort that uh, you know, multiple iterations us with the leadership team. And there was a core team that was working on it and try to figure out what it is and work in groups with the leadership team to identify do we want to be more like this or more like that, and why it's a very deliberate effort. It's not like a couple of slogans. It has to be very, very well thought out. That's the only way to kind of make sure that you build it in such a way that it is um it it it improves with people adding uh their takes and contributions to it, but also it not being fluffy enough that everyone can just say, oh, it means this, oh, we should do this and we should do that, and and it doesn't end up meaning nothing at the end. Um and it's a very hard balance to do, but that's almost necessary to make sure that you get it done right.

SPEAKER_00 33:22

Now you chose neither track, nor have you gone on after Karim to build something else, nor have you decided to relax and enjoy life. You decided to go join Ra'ed A Venture Capital, raise even more money in order to kind of invest it back into the ecosystem. Why did you make that choice?

SPEAKER_01 33:39

So, again, part of my broader mission is like, okay, I want this part of the world to be better, right? And alhamdulillah, I was blessed to be part of a journey like Karim, where I could see the impact that Karim had uh in the ecosystem to the to the startup ecosystem overall, people believed there's more money flowing in and all of these things. Um I was thinking like, what's my next act? Act, I guess, three at that point, you know, for me. What what is it gonna be? Um and I felt that you know with Karim, I was like very narrow and deep solving, like a very, you know, pro-defined problem that Karim was was trying to kind of uh dominate in. Um with venture capital, you are very, very broad. Uh and I feel that you know capital allocation um with the right mindset uh and with the right kind of overall direction has the potential to have you know societal impact. Um I was already angel investing and I figured, okay, uh if I do this a bit more institutionally, uh with with a much more uh established fund, uh, you know, larger amounts of capital, and really selecting the best of the best founders that I can find and would work with them. I think I want more downstream effects, more uh compound effects that Kareem had, but like multiplied. I felt that that was the compounding effect of what I was trying to do. And, you know, talking about feelings and signs and whatever. I felt that what was the sign. Again, signs are great whenever it's like, you know, ambiguity and not necessarily things about right and wrong. There's nothing clear-cut about it. It's just like you're wondering, okay, Allah, please let me figure out how I can be more useful. Uh, and as long as you think like that and whatever, and I came, you know, I came to the conclusion that I can have more broader impact um by being in by being that, partly because I've been part of a journey. I've seen kind of what it took to build that success. I hopefully uh have seen a lot of things uh of what are the right things to do, but also what are the things that you should not be doing. We learned a lot of things along the way that we shouldn't, we did this wrong, we didn't, we didn't do this. So all of that kind of exposure that I had at Caim was like, okay, I can help founders think through how to build their companies. I can help them uh reason through challenges challenges that they're having. And I feel that that impact, powered by ability to inject capital to boot, um, to boost um ones that are going to be very impactful, that to me felt like a massive kind of natural progression to kind of the type of impact that I wanted to do for this region through kind of my talents and through the experience that I've had.

SPEAKER_00 36:25

You described it as being an act three of your of your life, which seems to indicate it a bit of a story or a or a or a play that, as you said, is progressing from one part to another and going from vertical to horizontal, which seems to indicate an appetite to build something more well-rounded, right? Over the last kind of few hundred years, we've lived through like industrial revolution, industry 1.0 to 3.0, hyper-specialization, division of labor, stick to one thing, become the absolute kind of best expert at it. Is this a personal preference? Is this reflective of a more of an industry 4.0 where with AI, with robotics, we're trying to reinvent ourselves again, go back to basics, become more human, more well-rounded in anticipation of the machines doing the more ultra-specialized work. Where is this coming from?

SPEAKER_01 37:14

You know, my my career trajectory is is very organic. I I mean, I never thought I'd be where I am sitting here today, right? Uh I think the way that I keep uh crystallizing is crystallizing my my personal mission. And with experience, with time, I kind of get to figure out how that looks like over the years. Um and uh keeping myself open to opportunities as they come. I don't have a fixed, preconceived notion of I need to do this specifically. I like I need to be able, okay. Remember, let's take a step back. There's a thing that we that we always discuss in in when building products is you have an output-driven mindset versus an outcome-driven mindset. And whenever you build something with the with the uh output-driven mindset, means that my goal was to deliver X and metric of successes, is X delivered? Yes, success. Else it's not successful. With outcome, is why am I building this or why am I doing X action? And it is to try to effect this type of change or to manifest this type of outcome. And for me, the means to it, it could be doing it this way, that way, and there's an infinite way to do that. That to me is more important than the outcome is more important than the means at that very moment, because the means can change. I could discover there's another way to achieve it, there's a new thing changed in society, and therefore we need to approach things differently. So it kind of keeps you on your edge that your goal is to always figure out and be resourceful at every single moment in your life to try to maximize the impact and the outcome that you're trying to achieve, as opposed to being very fixed in your ways. This fixed mindset is very dangerous. We talk about like this complacency when at the very beginning when we started talking about it. Things change all the time, and you need to know what are the cores, what are the immovable ideals and objectives and outcomes that will never change because these are your values, these are your cold core, and what are the things that you need to absolutely start adopting quickly because that is needed in order to accelerate whatever vision mission you have. Um, the world that we're in right now, and you know, AI and robotics and the merger between the two, and all of these things. Absolutely, I'm looking at like, okay, how can we like what is this new phenomenon? What should we do with it? Um, you know, I'm not, you know, sometimes people overly force everything to fit in every single time. Sometimes there's a use in it in some areas, sometimes there isn't. Um, but just being responsive to changes in society or trends while being true to your original goal is the is the right way to approach it rather than just jumping on any trend with no foundation, or at the same time being very fixed in like, I need to achieve this and focus on the output more than the outcome.

SPEAKER_00 40:08

How do you do that? Because obviously, when there's a new trend, it's a FOMO, people don't want to be left behind. People worry that other competitors will will will jump on that. You're on the investment side. Sometimes the investors, you also have your own limited partners, so you have no option but to execute on that on that trend, which also means kind of the founders that are pushed to that. At the same time, you don't know if you have enough runway to let that trend play out. So you're probably forced to participate. How do you balance it?

SPEAKER_01 40:36

I I don't run after FOMO. Okay. And I don't think, you know, Raed as a fund, we don't run after FOMO. I mean, if you let's like, you know, now the biggest like buzzword right now is like AI or you know, all of these things, right? Uh is there something real behind it? Absolutely, there's something real behind it, but then there's also a lot of fluff and a lot of noise. Uh a couple of years ago, it was like blockchain and web 3, where again, very useful, very impactful. But again, there's a lot of fluff. Everyone just inserts the word like web 3 in their in their pitch deck, and somehow, you know, it's supposed to be like uh you you you deserve a higher multiple for your for your company. And it's the same thing now. People pepper in salt and pepper some AI into your pitch deck and they think that's it. And and I I think it it comes down to as an investor, I'm looking for, I need I need to see something meaningful in in this AI that you're building. Is it is this AI thing core to your business? Is it not? Is it is it gonna change something fundamental? Is it really needed, or is this just you know, some fluff that you have there? There is a lot of noise right now, to be honest. I I think maybe uh 50% of the startups that claim to be doing AI are probably gonna fail, if not more, because people haven't thought meaningfully about how they wanna use this. So I don't think we run after FOMO. I think we need to be very keen to analyze the trend and figure out exactly how um this AI is gonna play out. Is it gonna be it's here to stay, it's gonna have impact. The question is how. Think of like the dot-com bubble. Everyone and their cousin and their mother and their sister and their brother was doing a whatever dot com, pets.com, x dot com, or whatever. But it took us a while, a couple of iterations, especially with the early internet, people figuring out what are the business models that the internet can enable and what are the things that are just like noise. And then when the bubble popped, everyone that was sitting on nothing realized that there was no uh fundamental business model, but a lot of things stayed. E-commerce, uh, in the way that we see it today stayed because there was something fundamental about how people sell, but some other things failed. And the same thing is gonna happen now. And I think the investors and the people who are gonna be most successful are the ones who are gonna be able to cut through the fluff, be able to see what are and be very thoughtful. Like we need to sit down and just be very like thoughtful about the way you invest as opposed to running after every trend. Because the fact of the matter is, out of every 10 AI companies, I would say nine of them are fluff.

SPEAKER_00 43:01

You mentioned the dot-com bubble, do you think we're in an AI bubble?

SPEAKER_01 43:07

I think we we are heading there. Uh, I think we are heading there because uh of the way some valuations are at in AI right now. Uh I'm worried about uh the AI valuations being too high. I'm worried about the fact that there are too many investors that whenever they see uh uh uh AI, they automatically add uh an extra two, three X to the multiple just because. Um and I think it puts a lot of pressure on founders because the founders, hey, I mean, every every every couple of months, there's a new model out there, there's a new thing out there that changes the way people think about things in AI. And sometimes the assumptions that you had six months ago are no longer valid. That's how much of a change that we're in right now. And people are valuating themselves too high or allowing themselves to accept a high valuation, and uh that only Puts pressure on them to perform. They have to catch up to their valuation. And if not, they're going to have a downturn, uh a down round, and that's not going to be good for everyone. And that's going to be the self-correction that happens in AI. Um, but from that, the ones that still emerge resilient are going to be the ones who are like, oh yeah, that's the right way that we should have been thinking about AI, or these are the areas that we should be thinking about it. Um but yeah, I do think that we're heading through uh to uh an AI bubble right now if the valuations continue the way they are in uh in some of those areas.

SPEAKER_00 44:31

Uh well, you use a lot the words self-correction, self-awareness, uh self-honesty, accountability. Where does this sense of constant inward, internal focus, digestion come from? How can someone build that level of okay, I'm constantly assessing myself, reflecting on myself?

SPEAKER_01 44:54

Yeah, I, you know, I'm one of the things that I'm very good at is I can't lie to myself. Like I almost like promised myself when I was like maybe 16 or 17 I would never lie to myself. Uh you can sometimes, you know, when when people are defensive, you try to defend yourself public in front of other people. And maybe sometimes you was that really the case? Or I was just trying to give myself an excuse. Um, but with with one's self, uh, it's it's always good to be honest. And when you learn to kind of have a very accurate view of how you think. And I say how you think because sometimes people trick themselves into how they think as well. They think, oh yeah, yeah, I'm very convinced. I was like, are you uh I want to do this? Do you really want to do this or not? So I think this is just something, I don't know what triggered it exactly, but I remember very clearly when I was like 16, 17, I was in my last year of high school, there was a couple of like big things that happened in my life that I promised myself that I'd be very, very honest with myself. And I almost can't lie to myself because of that. Um but I but I think if you see most successful people in in life, not that I'm necessarily as successful, but they have a very uh they have a clear ability to articulate uh what they what they think and what they feel in a very kind of honest way, because it helps you get to the truth faster and then you can avoid a lot of like wasted time.

SPEAKER_00 46:22

Now, if you kind of reflect back on since you've come to the region until and until today, what has been built, what has what has changed, and if you fast forward another was what, 10, 15 years ago when you came back to the region, if you fast forward another 10, 15 years, what's the next goal?

SPEAKER_01 46:41

I don't know what the next goal is because the mission is still the same, right? But I I do think that we're we are at a very amazing time here where acceleration, like things are heading in the right direction and they're accelerating in the right direction. I think I remember when I first moved back, a lot of my my friends who were from this part of the world as well, uh, that were living in the Silicon Valley, it's like, well, what are you doing? Uh now many of them are calling me because they want to come back. It's like, well, do you know if there are any good opportunities of companies here? I think people see that there's something different about the region. We are at an inflection point um that people recognize that they want to build for here. They see the potential now. I think when I came, I like the potential was just like a feeling that I had again, back to feelings, uh, more of a hope. Um uh I guess because I felt that I needed to do something about it uh or contribute. There are many people who are trying to do things and let me be someone who contributes. I think now people are starting to see the fruits, uh, or at least starting to see the sprouts of some of these things, and uh and now they want uh they want to come back. And if you ask me, I think that's gonna accelerate. I think um one of the things that we need to kind of accelerate even further is many people kind of go there to kind of study at some of the top educational institutions. I think we're starting to build educational institutions here that people feel like I can actually study here as well, um, but still very early, I would say. Um I think we are definitely moving in the right direction. And the fact that all of my friends are now asking, you know, what are the opportunities? I think they feel it as well, and they're not even seeing the full picture.

SPEAKER_00 48:28

So that's one side of it, is what happened here, but also one side of it is what happened there in the West. How do you see that?

SPEAKER_01 48:37

I think there's a lot of uncertainty now with what's happening in the West. I think people feel that things are not stable anymore, uh, at least from a policy point of view. They don't know what to expect. And I think, you know, this lack of stability suddenly makes you think uh clearly. Because you because a lot of times you assume things. Okay, it's like, oh, I assume that's and you go with the flow. Again, we talk about we talked about going with the flow and you assume that you're gonna behave in a certain way or do a certain thing because that's what everyone is doing. I think when big moments shake up around you, uh, either big things that happen personally or in society around you, and sometimes even family, it causes someone to wake up and actually start thinking critically as opposed to assuming and as you know, assuming uh a way of thinking that they've adopted without realizing that they've you know adopted that way of thinking. So I think many people are realizing that whatever they've assumed about um stability is not fully there in in in a lot of places. And because of that, they are thinking more honestly with themselves now. Uh and for the first time, they're assessing uh options. And when they're um when they're assessing options uh you know, honestly here, they realize there are good uh options and and and opportunities that are here as well. And they wouldn't have thought about it otherwise until that shocker comes in and they're like, oh, what's going on? And whatever. So uh, you know, alhamdulillah, things, things, even even moments of hardship and instability sometimes, you know, with the right mindset cause people to grow as well. Which in in our in my mind, you know, you know, there's there's so much preaching you can tell people about the energy that's happening now in our in the startup ecosystem, in overall in our economies in this part of the world. Um, but um sometimes it needs someone to be like you know, smacked in the head a bit to like actually is like, okay, come and see it for real and tell me what you think.

SPEAKER_00 50:33

What are the moments that shocked you, that smacked you in the head?

SPEAKER_01 50:37

We're gonna get into politics. Um I think there are there are many things that are very strange. Uh there are people who are, I mean, obviously that what happened in Gaza was like a big was a big thing that made us like think and you know, what's going on? Uh uh there's also you know policies that are happening in different countries that are uh moving towards ultranationalism, which is worrying people. What does that mean? A lot of times, you know, many of these countries, which are countries of immigrants, either be in North America or Europe, uh the the the assumption was anyone can be a European or whatever country, anyone can be an American or a Canadian or a British person. And now there's discussion of like, you know, race and you know, you're you know, we're losing our white culture, this or and then and then suddenly people are like, okay, so there's a feeling that no matter what, if I'm a person who was originally ethnically from this part of the world and I go there, am I never gonna get accepted? So this these questions of uh are are causing people to like you know really think about their again, their identity. I mean, I'm never gonna be accepted by them. Is that is that gonna happen? Are they, you know, and if it materializes this way, again, inherited identities, chosen identities, you know, I can't do anything about my inherited identity. It is what it is. And if I'm not gonna get accepted, who is gonna accept me? And I think countries and nations that adopt ideologies and principles that people can buy into and adopt as their own, where you have an identity that you can say, okay, that is who I am. I I subscribe to that. They're gonna be able to attract the best talent globally because there anyone can subscribe to it and not kind of uh devolve into kind of uh identity-based politics that is on identities that you cannot change and choose.

SPEAKER_00 52:25

Where does money fit in culture, like making money, raising money, using money? Where is it in the culture?

SPEAKER_01 52:32

You know, we go back to that uh topic about like money, with uh, you know, especially with with, you know, if someone's trying to be more religious and practicing money is seen as like a bad thing and whatever, right? And and I don't necessarily see that. Um, there's a there's a hadith that I remember, and I think um this was Rasul Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam was talking to uh one of his companions, uh, I think it was Amr ibn alas, and he said um he wanted to reward him for something that he had done. And he told him, Ya Rasulullah, that's I didn't do this for the money. And then his response to him was, so how good is it that good clean money is in the hands of a good righteous man? Right? It shows you that, like, you know, in my opinion, money is an amplifier. If you're a good person, foundationally in your core, you're a good person, have the right thing. Money can amplify, and if you use properly, can amplify whatever you want to do. Uh, and therefore you have a compounding effect uh on um on the type of khir that you can do, the type of good uh that you can do in society. If you're yourself not, it will amplify the worst in you, right? And you can you get to see what happens with people who have uh you know not thought about their values or maybe aimless or maybe even have some of some wrong uh uh kind of um values, what happens when they have money and then starts getting into a spiral of other things. So I see money really as an amplifier of who you are. And that's why I always say, you know, if you, if you, if you plan to do something and you want to be successful from a kind of a material world point of view and whatever, the amount of investment that you did to be able to kind of learn how to be very successful in that one area, you have to accompany it with this like face-based, faith-based kind of like preparation that when that when you end up materializing, becoming successful, um, you don't end up creating a wrecking ball that ruins your life. You know, um, you know, there was this funny uh there's an aphorism that people say, like, you know, uh hard times create tough men, tough men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create tough times, right? Um and I think I think in general, you know, um people recognize that whenever people become wealthy, uh comfortable, um they again they tend to become sometimes complacent, they uh become a bit too hedonistic, um, they start um equating uh material success with moral success. And sometimes it that when you get sucked into it, it it masks you from being able to see the truth uh properly. If you look at all of like in the stories of the prophets in the Quran and the majority of the people who stood up to the truth, to the prophets, all of the prophets from Moses to Jesus to you know, all of the prophets, tribe, who are they? There's like a word that the Quran uses to describe this. It's al-mutrafin, right? Mutrafin are the people who are um uh the ultra-wealthy. There are people who are like living lavishly, whatever. These are the people who fight the truth when they see it. And they fight it sometimes because maybe their moral compass is not right, but sometimes like even change. Oh, what happens to my wealth? What happens, the system changes. I I built my success on the system, and therefore um anything that might threaten the system, I'm gonna be opposed to because wealth, I became wealthy, and that's a good thing, and therefore that means the system must have been good, and therefore anything that's against it must be bad, right? That's kind of the thing. Um, so there's this danger of like wealth getting into your heart, right? I think a lot of times when you see a lot of scholars that they talk about wealth, they say, make sure that wealth stays in your hand, not in your heart, right? Where it's a tool that you can use to amplify rather than something that ends up changing your heart and becoming hedonistic and what's and that sort of thing. So, my relationship, I think in general, the right way to see money is that you need to see money as a tool, as an enablement, but you need to invest in yourself to protect yourself and inoculate yourself from being corrupted by power and wealth and and that sort of thing and recognize um that it can happen. Uh, wealth and power is very corrupting. It's very, very uh it's it can be extremely powerful uh corrupting uh mechanism. Uh, but at the same time, it can be a massive amplification uh as well. If you look at um even another example where uh ashab sufa that were around us, who was the poor people who were living around in Masan Nabawi at the time of the Rasul, um they basically they told the Rasulah, look at all of those good sahaba who are very wealthy, who are able to do more, they have more ajr than us. And you know, and the fact that Mah gave them some dua to say and say, Okay, but now they heard the du'a, now they're saying the same du'a. So now they're getting the same uh ajr as well. And he said, Dalikah fadlullahi, this is uh like if it's like wealth can be a fadl, it can be a test, it can be a uh a blessing that uh is is there that people have, but make sure you use it properly and make sure before you get it, you're investing in your um in your faith and your deen and your iman uh just as much as you're investing in your ability to be successful in the dunya because they can they can amplify each other.

SPEAKER_00 57:54

Use the example of all the opposition to the prophets came from the more wealthy people where the where the money corrupted them, with the exception of the Queen of Sabah, who was not corrupted with with uh with Prophet Sulaiman. Is is do women have a more superior capacity of dealing with money and not being corrupted by it, or is or it was just a coincidence?

SPEAKER_01 58:14

Uh good question. I don't know. I think I think everyone is able to be corrupted by by wealth uh in different ways. Um I think there was something genuinely good about her and her heart initially um that made her she was known to be just, right? She was known to be just, and even the the mala who were around her, uh the way they spoke with her was that um they relied on her wisdom and her justice to you know to tell them what we should do about this message that came to us from from Sulaiman alayhi salam. Um so she was, you know, fundamentally her core, her mahdan was was was good. Um I think that was uh was uh was uh the case. But you know, I think with for every um if you look at like the the opposite example with Musa alayhi salam and faraun, extremely wealthy and not uh what the biggest uh the the biggest tyrant on in in this in this in this planet. Um except his wife was also just his wife so it looks like there is a trend with women. There is well, there's the the wife of uh Luta alayhi salam, right, as well. I think the idea is that um you know she was the wife of a prophet and but also wasn't wasn't uh ended up not being righteous. I I think the idea is that you you you can't you can't ever be sure unless you make sure that you always audit and self-correct and whatever. You need to be true to yourself to make sure am I on the right path, am I doing things right, am I not? Uh this self-reflection is very critical. And I think um uh you know one of the one of the um the stories of uh like a word that's constantly being used as the qualities of people who are righteous, two words that are very similar to each other, is uh illam and at allahbi kalbin munip, il-nabah in general, coming back. So basically, uh no one's perfect, you're gonna make mistakes, but the idea is you're always coming back. And um, and there was the I I was listening to something recently, someone was saying, what's the difference between tawba and inaba? Uh tawbah is when you do something bad. Okay. So for example, oh, I shouldn't have done this and you come back. Inebah could also mean that you didn't necessarily do anything bad, but it's more like I'm I'm not I'm not in the zone anymore. My faith is not like top of mind. It's more of like somehow in the background. I'm I'm mechanically doing my prayers, I'm mechanically fasting, I'm mechanically going through the motions of the things that I'm supposed to do, but I'm not um I'm not being mindful about it. I'm not, it's not like core part of my intention anymore. So it's more like a renewal of your intention. So in IBBA can be if you've maybe done something you're not supposed to be, and you and that can be there. But it's also back the idea that even if everything is going fine, just make sure that you're not in this like autonomous mode where you're not thinking anymore, not being mindful of what you're doing, to make sure that whatever you're doing, your faith is like a core part of the decision making and not suddenly relegated to the background.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:11

Someone listening to us in Ramadan wants to do one thing, having listened to this podcast, to get out of this mechanical motion and really focus and elevate his relationship with money, relationship with being righteous in the way he amplifies or she amplifies and spends the money. What would be your one advice?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:32

Um, I would say I mean subhanAllah Ramadan is like a perfect time because the Ramadan is the month of self-reflection, right? It's a month of self-reflection. And I would say like step number one, invest, use that time to invest in yourself. Use that as the driving force to invest in yourself, and then use that as the starting point to now uh see the world through that new you lens, right? You know, the most important thing is to see clearly that the reality or the way you are need to be as clear as it really is. And use that to clarify who you are, use that to come back the inaba part. Uh everyone needs that. Uh, and maybe that's the reason why Ramadan is a blessing because it forces you to change your routine so much that you like, you know. Remember, we talked about shockers that make you rethink things. Ramadan comes in and is like, okay, I can't eat, but I'm hungry, but I need to do work, but I need to do this. Suddenly, like your system goes through a shake that forces you to rethink again. Uh, but the key thing is to use that as a sign to rethink as opposed to as a sign of like, I need to survive somehow to just get it over with and use that to really reflect.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:37

Well, it's been a real, real pleasure having you. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. Ramadan Kareem. Thank you. Ramadan Barak.