Mortgage Secrets You Need to Know | The Mal Show (podcast) with Mohamad Kaswani

In this episode of The MAL Show, we sit down with Mohamad Kaswani — entrepreneur and fintech & proptech leader, and former Managing Director of Mortgage Finder, part of the Property Finder Group — for a deep conversation on how money, systems, and technology intersect in the real world. 

We dive into the mortgage and real estate ecosystem, unpacking why the mortgage process has historically been complex, how technology and data are reshaping the experience, and what’s really driving the Dubai real estate market today. 

From there, the discussion expands into the broader startup and investment landscape, exploring the relationship between companies, customers, and investors, and what it takes to build and lead ventures in a fast-moving environment like Dubai. 

Along the way, we touch on the role of initiatives and organizations in enabling entrepreneurship across industries, and how ecosystems are built through collaboration between different players. 

Toward the end, the conversation shifts into something more personal, reflecting on the situation in Syria and the support initiatives taking place there. Mohamad Kaswani is a venture builder who has spent years operating at the intersection of technology, real estate, and financial services, contributing to the growth of platform-driven businesses and supporting initiatives that empower entrepreneurs and innovation across different markets.

Chapters:
00:00 Intro
2:37 Startup ecosystem & Mohamad initiatives in Syria 
10:12 The advantage of adversity 
12:23: Mentorship
19:43 Ethical standards
21:02 ChatGPT vs Claude
26:32 Transparency loop
27:37 Most important factor in home buying
31:15 Buying Vs Renting
40:35 How Mortgage is calculated?
46:22 Mortgage period
48:26 Balancing Business vs Ethics
54:42 Choosing the right bank
1:08:36 Rent Now, Pay Later
1:11:45 Growth Debt in Startups
1:22:21 Mohamad Kaswani at heart
1:29:41 Investors as partners
1:38:38 Final advice from Mohamad

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#themalshow #proptech #mortgage #realestate #entrepreneur #podcast

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:01

I earn my salary monthly. Why should I pay my rent once a year? If you're paying your rent monthly, think about it, you're less likely to default than having to come up with 50,000 dharhams in one go. Sometimes half a million dharhams in one go, depending on where you're renting.

SPEAKER_01 0:16

Today's guest is Mohammed Paswa, former managing director of Mortgage Finder, part of the Property Finder Group, an adventure builder who has spent years working at the intersection of technology, real estate, and financial services.

SPEAKER_03 0:29

The most important factor in the home buying decision is time.

SPEAKER_01 0:33

I bought your arguments. Projects, off plan, ready, mortgages, mortgage advisors. Where do I start?

SPEAKER_03 0:44

There's a finite amount of land on this earth. And particularly in this part of the world, we're overproductive. So there's a there's a growing population. This is by far the most pleasant place to be in the whole world.

SPEAKER_01 0:57

So how do you balance that drive for making people's lives better with the amplified impact of volatility these mortgages can bring?

SPEAKER_03 1:05

There's something really unique about the UAEUs, where in most markets in the world, you find the private sector quite often pushing the regulators. In here, it's the regulators pushing ahead of the private sector.

SPEAKER_01 1:24

Assalamu alaikum and welcome to the MALL show. In this episode, we dive into the mortgage and real estate ecosystem and we discuss why the mortgage process has historically been complex, how technology and data are reshaping the experience, and what's really driving the Dubai real estate market today. We also talk about the broader startup and investment ecosystem, the relationship between companies, customers and investors, and what it takes to build and lead ventures in a fast-moving environment like the UE. And towards the end of the conversation, we touch on something more personal, the situation in Syria and the support initiatives taking place there. Today's guest is Mohammed Kasswan, former managing director of Mortgage Finder, part of the Property Finder Group, and a venture builder who has spent years working at the intersection of technology, real estate, and financial services. Before we dive in, we'd like to thank you for your constant support for the match show. And don't forget to subscribe to our channel to get the latest episodes. Let's begin. Thank you so much for joining me. Habib Yusuf, thank you for having me. And I love the t-shirt. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 2:26

This is uh, you know, people keep asking, what are you doing? Where are you going? Are you staying? I'm like, where would I go? This is home.

SPEAKER_01 2:33

Great too, great to see the spirit. Yeah. Uh Sony, the other home that you're very, very uh bullish on it a lot about is the Syrian, specifically the tech ecosystem. Yes, you've been a big proponent of it now. Most of us don't really know what's happening there. Unfortunately, it's been 15 years, which unfortunately are the same 15 years where the startup ecosystem has developed in most countries. So get us inside that ecosystem.

SPEAKER_03 2:57

So it's not just most of us. I didn't even know up until February 2025, I had no idea. Um, so uh uh we uh around February of last year, uh January of last year, a friend of mine called me from the valley and he says, Hey, we're putting together this group of guys uh in tech. We're gonna go and check out the tech scene in Syria. Um I said, okay, sure. Tech in Syria, really? What's happening? So anyway, uh about six weeks later, this thing turned into a conference with 700 attendees and about 160 of us from the diaspora who went there, and the rest were local. So 700 uh from the local community and us. And we were all absolutely mesmerized by the talent on the ground in Syria, by the energy, the the you know, just this beautiful youth flaming with optimism. Um, and that's how Sync was born. Sink as a you know suddenly uh Syria next uh next chapter. Um what's Sync? So Sink is an NGO based in the US on a mission to create 25,000 tech jobs in the next five years. That's the core mission of what Sync is. And then it evolved over time. Um, where um, and when I say over time, it evolved incredibly quickly. Um, where we also became uh we were declared a national initiative by His Excellency Abdesalam, uh Minister of Telco, and we uh the organization worked very closely with uh with the Syrian ecosystem on building bridges and relationships with the global tech ecosystem. So um there was a there was a visit to Silicon Valley a few weeks ago um where you know there was a ministerial delegation as well as the US uh Chamber of Commerce supported by Tom Barack to visit a uh you know a ton of uh tech companies. So, you know, Meta, Google, OpenAI, um Anthropic, et cetera, et cetera, uh, for uh for engagement.

SPEAKER_01 4:54

What was the reaction like when you launched uh the organization in in Syria? How did you feel the kind of the reaction to that was?

SPEAKER_03 5:01

Um uh overwhelming uh with with with kindness, right? So um naturally when this thing turned into a conference um and we needed funding and sponsorships, right? We you know, we started calling, we started calling everybody we knew. Um and it, you know, look, you've got the local um, you know, the the the you know the local Syrians as well as the Syrians in a diaspora where in so many words it's kind of expected or unnatural. Um out of duty. Out of duty that we all participated and we supported financially whenever we could as much as we can. Um of the most heartwarming um uh you know gestures of support we got was from uh I remember at the time it was Sa'id Nashif from uh Rai Adventures, right? This was in the February conference. So remember, February 2025, Syria was still like a bit like an off-the-beaten path. Uh uh, no one knows how it's gonna happen which way it's gonna go. Um, and uh uh you know Said found out, right, that hey, there's this conference happening in Damascus. He came in last minute, right? Um, and he showed up and he attended um you know Saed Falestini works for a largely Saudi fund. Um what a beautiful human being he was. Um and then uh a couple of months later, I had I had dinner with um you know what a what an amazing team. Um Said Nashif, Omar Majdwai, and Wail, uh, who I think you interviewed on the podcast uh a couple of weeks ago. Looks like it's a dream team all around. Um amazing people, right? Um and we were having dinner at Riyadh, and the three of them were really, really interested in Syria, right? And but they're not interested purely where from a from an investor lens, right? They were interested, it seemed, from a uh from a more of an altruistic place. How can we help? Was the question asked, right? Um, it wasn't where should we invest? It wasn't where are the opportunities? It was, hey, it's great to see this country after so many years of destruction and those people suffering for nearly 15 years. It's great to hear the story about um, you know, about the the the youth and the ambition and and and re-emergence of of that uh of that community into the global um ecosystem. How can we help? Right. And they came in as a as a sponsor. You know, you've got this this amazing team at Sharuk. Um, I I know Muzaffar was uh Muzaffar Al-Wan was there early on. Um yeah, Mahmoud has always been supportive, Shane was very supportive, Bilal has always been very supportive, and uh and yeah, and then when when we did so Sync also hosted the um very first uh pavilion for Syria as part of Gitex. We were at uh uh expand north star. So we you know we had this wild idea, the Dubai chapter, of saying, hey, we're going to um to promote um you know Syria and have presence um in at Expand North Star, and his excellency Abdul Salam came in for a fireside chat, um uh you know, as well, I think with with Reuters at the time, and um, and we had this beautiful pavilion. And um, and and I I remember one day when I think that the night before at the setup, um a couple people walking by and saying, Oh, this is cool. Syria is what Syria is online. That was the theme uh that we had it. Um, and then I think everybody in the ecosystem came, right? Um uh you know, Roni came by, Ronaldo Mshahbar came by, um uh, you know, the the the Wamda team and you know the the the one and only the godfather uh Fadir Gandur came by, Dani Farcha came by. Um a lot of people showed us um showed us love out of the out of the investment ecosystem and are genuinely interested in in helping and supporting.

SPEAKER_01 9:04

I love the genuine pride in your eyes and your smile when you talk about Syria and the UE and how you're able to bridge between your two homes.

SPEAKER_03 9:11

I I can't, yeah. Sheikh Masour was was very Sheikh Masood Muhammad was uh uh incredibly kind um you know to come to come visit because you know it's a big show. They're they're the they're driving, they're you know, they're what they're walking by. So the fact that he chose to stop and ask questions, it meant the world, uh Saeed Gargawi was was was there and also very very supportive, his excellency Hilal. Um it's uh it's truly, truly heartwarming. Like look at this uh um we've seen so much suffering in that country, right? Um, and when I say we uh I didn't even go for 13, 14 years, right? I didn't even see it. Um so the the the you know I I really think those people deserve a chance. And when you go and and you said, please join us, I think the next event is gonna happen in August, September. Um, I want you to see that um that youth flaming with hope, right? Um, it will change your life. I promise.

SPEAKER_01 10:10

Count me in.

SPEAKER_03 10:10

All right. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 10:12

Some people say we're still very early because there's still maybe the electricity cuts, maybe the infrastructure isn't isn't there. How do you reconcile these massive ambitions with realities on the ground?

SPEAKER_03 10:23

Resilience. Right? So if you think about it, obviously the um uh uh power and internet has improved significantly over the past uh you know 12, 14 months. But I think that was the essence of why we were all pleasantly surprised or I use the word mesmerized. Um you watched an ecosystem with more than 200 apps, um, uh you know, a couple of hundred tech startups, um, also thousands of local talent supporting regional and international companies. We had no idea. And they're operating in an environment with no internet, no electricity, um no nothing really, prior to to December 2020, 2024. Um the the resilience of our society in the Middle East is something that I have always uh uh I've I've always believed in and I think is worth betting on. What do you attribute that to? Um there's I I th I think there is an advantage to adversity. Uh the more difficult you put you you know, the more difficult an environment is, um, I find that the more resilient you find people to be. We've had our fair share of this. Sure.

SPEAKER_01 11:41

For better or worse.

SPEAKER_03 11:42

Yeah. And I like honestly, look, I I don't I I don't know if it's DNA, right? Um, or I don't know if it's um if it's simply you know a survival, a human survival instinct, right?

SPEAKER_01 11:55

There's a paper by there's a paper by Laura Joy, who's a Lebanese neuroscientist. She says that as generations are impacted by consistent adversity, that starts getting wired into the genes. You're absolutely spot on that that can end up being biological and can end up being even generations who have not necessarily experienced adversity themselves, they can still end up exhibiting kind of disproportionate resilience. So you're spot on. Yeah, 100%. Yeah. Very interesting. Now, your work with the scene ecosystem uh is not a kind of a standalone. You describe yourself or people describe you as a fervent mentor, and mentorship is really a very important part of your DNA. What what's the what's the story behind that? Why is that so important to you?

SPEAKER_03 12:40

It was mentorship who who got me this far in life. Um and uh so many people throughout my life and career um have touched my life in a positive in a in a positive way and helped me evolve over time. Um and I saw that um, you know, I I genuinely I saw that uh that that result firsthand. Um and I'd always wished I could be in a position where I can do the same to others, you know, since my days in the US, um, you know, people who really didn't have to help. Um they were random strangers, you know, from another country, um just extending a hand to a Muhammad from Syria and saying, hey, how can we help? How can we um you know help boost your career? How can we um you know help better orient you with the culture, um, etc. And then I had a couple of mentorship relationships early in my career that were um people who were really hard on me, right? Um, but it had a lasting impact. Uh, and it made me who I am, um, and it made me a better version of myself. So I'm always obsessed with the with the opportunity to do the same onto others. And frankly speaking, there is nothing that I enjoy more. I enjoy mentorship more than I enjoy building businesses, right? Um and somehow people tend to listen to me. Maybe because uh my wife says I'm uh um I'm in denial about my age. So I I act and I I speak a lot younger than I than I actually am. Um and uh and I think uh for whatever reason I'm able to connect really well to to people in their 20s.

SPEAKER_01 14:24

You seemed quite touched as you talked about some of the mentorship you received or the specific stories you recalled as you were saying, you were saying this.

SPEAKER_03 14:31

Yeah, yeah, 100%. Um eternal gratitude to some of them. I remember um there's a gentleman by the name of uh of Paul Lances, right? Paul took me on when I was a um a junior at university, so my my my third year, um, you know, I was studying business. I was absolutely clueless, you know, borderline fresh off the boat, only a couple of years into my life in the in in in the US. Um and the dean of the business school at Penn State at the time introduced me to Paul. Um, at the time he had maybe say $70, $80 million AUM. Today he's a couple of billion dollars AUM. Um, he's an asset management business. Um guy had a great sense of humor. And um, yeah, when I he just met me for like randomly two, three minutes, and and I said, look, I'm really interested in learning more about the investment space. Um and uh and I want to be, you know, I want to be an analyst, I want to be in investment banking. I wanted to be you, Yusuf, essentially, when I was at University. I'm honored. Um and uh I said I really wanted to get into investment banking and learn more about it. And then Paul started cracking all kinds of jokes about it, like, ah, the Syrian kid wanting to be an investment banker with with with this uh with his New York accent. Um he took me on and he took me on his wing and uh it he invested so much time and energy um you know, showing me the ropes, and it it really what I learned from Paul, I still used 20 years later, right? Um he was a he was a value investor, so he was a very strong believer in um studying businesses in extreme depth, right? Which is something that you don't see very often around this part of the world. We we we tend to fixate a bit more on a bit more optics, if you'd like, than the substance behind the business. Um Paul uh really changed my life uh in in that sense. And then look, I can count dozens and dozens of people um you know after that who have really touched my life and uh um and and were there for me. Um careers, as you very well know, Yusuf, are not a series of success stories, right? It's a I think it's uh you have success stories and you have failures as well. And those who show up for you um during the good times and the bad times, uh you'll always be grateful for.

SPEAKER_01 16:57

Why would someone do that like Paul? Because we talked about resilience and we said resilience may be biology, maybe DNA, because it's survival and it's better for you on a biological level. Now, when it comes to helping others and mentoring others, maybe you can argue that some of it is also you pay it forward, you pay it back, etc. But Paul has been very successful, you've now very successful, may not necessarily be explained by DNA or by self-benefit, why we do that. So, what does it tell us about humanity? What do you think is the driver?

SPEAKER_03 17:26

Look, if I if I'm honest with myself, I find more joy, right, in giving mentorship um than than than anything else in the world, right? So I think it's so I think it's fulfilling, right? Some people admit it, some people don't. So it in a way or another, and um, and when I've when I've been in a position where I'm I'm wearing the mentor hat, um people say thank you, and I genuinely say, no, no, no, no, thank you, right? Because I find so much inspiration in in some of the you know the young people that I mentor. And it's not just young people, right? It's young people, it's it's you know a lot of very successful startup founders um and and and people in the business community. It I find joy, I learn a great deal, right? Um, and then you find it quite often on on both sides of the table, right? When I'm speaking to people, I'm usually self-deprecating, right? And I, you know, I hold myself to very high standards. Um, and I'm always beating myself up. My mentor on the other side is uh is quite often saying, wait a minute, right? Can we take a step back and acknowledge what you just went through? I'm like, yeah, maybe that makes sense. The same thing happens when I'm mentoring, um, you know, when when I'm when I'm holding the the mentor title, um, and I'm and I'm supporting somebody, they don't see how how brilliant they are, uh, and how capable they are and how resilient they are. And when I when I see the result of all I had, sometimes all I have to do is I listen to some kid for 30 minutes, right? Um, you know, moan and uh you know, ah, my life sucks. It's been so hard, you know, some of them in tears. And I I I literally I just listen for 30 minutes and then I just say one thing. I'm like, okay, can we take a step back, please, and think about the fact that you've accomplished one, two, three? And then he or she would pause, and then I would say, right? So what makes you believe if you've accomplished one, two, three, that you can't accomplish four, five, six? Right. Um, and it works somehow.

SPEAKER_01 19:42

Now, what are these standards, ethical and professional, that you hold yourself up to?

SPEAKER_03 19:48

Um, I think above and beyond anything else, it would be integrity. Right. Um you know, I'm a I'm a bit old school, I'm in my late 40s, you said. So um now I understand why you write as you definitely don't look like. Uh I um I I value relationships uh a lot more than I value transactions. You know, it's like at a 10 to 1 factor.

unknown 20:11

Right.

SPEAKER_03 20:11

So uh that's that's the other thing. I truly, truly value relationships. And um I believe it's the right thing to do, and it's also served me incredibly well in life. So integrity is is is is number one, um, hard work, right? Because look, um at the end of the day, and I always say this to young people, uh success is a very simple formula, right? Success is something that sits at the intersection of luck and hard work, right? Now, it's a formula of some sort. So you could you could be overindexed on luck, right? But you can't have zero. Because if if your hard luck is a hundred and your if your good luck is a hundred and your luck and your hard work is zero, you're not gonna be successful. So it it's it's a it's that formula, right? So you gotta do put in the work and then also get lucky. What about the work smarter, not harder uh school of thought? Look, we're able to do it now, right? Uh thanks to thanks to Claude, who I uh uh you know, I annoy my wife by calling him Claudio, um, and uh um my best friend, right? It's it's really making a superhuman out of us. So I I think working smart in today's world is a um it's a non-negotiable thing, right? Working hard is a bonus.

SPEAKER_01 21:36

Uh you had a piece about this shift from uh Chat GPT to cloud. Yeah. Uh what what was the driver of that? Tell us about that.

SPEAKER_03 21:46

Oh my gosh. So this was uh so I I I uh um I a couple of months ago I uh started uh more actively working on building a business and and exploring opportunities in the fintech and prop tech space. So I launched a project on Chat GPT. And, you know, using it for research, um, you know, et cetera, et cetera. And uh a week or two into it, I got really frustrated. Right. Why? Um OpenAI leadership in the Middle East is a um uh their uh or the he's a very good friend. So I I don't I don't want to be I don't want to be mean, right? Um in in so many words, it was relatively useless for the depth that I wanted to go to. Right. Interesting. Um so I switched to Anthropic or I switched to Claude. Um, you know, spent a few hours, right, uh, you know, dumping in a data set. Um, and I had written like my own outside of AI, usually the the way I interact with AI is um I write my own documents, I build my own, I build my own data um with a with a with a great deal of depth. And then I I plug it in mainly for support in in structure and deeper research and validation and uh and and et cetera. Um and Claude really took it to the next level. Right? So I'd been frustrated with my experience with ChatGP with ChatGPT projects at the time is um it kept giving me deadlines and missing it. So I'd you know give it a prompt and an input, and it says, okay, let me work on it, I'll get back to you. Okay, how long is it gonna take you? Four hours. I come back exactly four hours later and say, okay, where's my document? Ah, please wait. And then I found myself in a passive aggressive relationship with with Chat GPT, right? Saying, you promised me four hours and now, and then it was like, and that four hours stretched into days, and the days stretched into weeks, and I was really frustrated. Then I turned to to anthropic. And a it the ability of uh of that platform to not simply agree with me and validate my my thoughts or ideas, it it's it's it you know, the depth of research, right? Um and um and also reach for data and information was truly impressive. Um the uh the the its ability to structure financial modeling, etc. etc. So it it's it's it's a I don't know where to begin, man. Like it's a it's a significantly better experience. Like for example, I wanted to chart right what's happening to or the impact of time on real estate prices over 15 years, right? And I wanted to um, so you know, and and we we we have a data set, and luckily we live in a country where you have open data, so we get we get data from uh from from DLD and et cetera, right? And and I gave this, I give, I'd given this project to to one of our analysts at Property Finder at the time, and then I'd given the same uh the same project to Claude. And I said, give me a chart showing me between 2010 and 2025, right, the average price per square foot. What I wanted to do is essentially have a a spreadsheet where my input would be, hey, this property was purchased in 2014 for X. How much should it be worth today? On the basis of prices moving up. That was my input, that was my um my the my desired deliverable. It came back to me and it added to the scope, right, on its own, proactively, and gave me insights, right? Which is something usually we rely on humans for. You want insights, you don't expect it to come from AI. And it gave me back insights and says, you know, the maximum, did you know that the maximum peak to trough right between 2010 and 2025 was um or 2008 and 2025 was 43 percent. Right? And then if you were to discount GFC or global financial crisis, all of this um all of this talk about the UAE or Dubai being a hyper-cyclical market and there's a lot of ups and downs between 2015 and 2025, maximum peak to draw off was sub 15%. Right? So it yes, is it a volatile market? Sure, right? But is 15% really gonna wipe you out? Or even, you know.

SPEAKER_01 26:32

You're obsessed with data. I think one of the other things you talked about is the transparency loop. Yeah. Uh talk to us about that.

SPEAKER_03 26:39

I'm obsessed with data, I'm just not very smart. Um, transparency, it particularly I think when it comes to real estate and investments, is a prerequisite to success um in any market. Um investors like to be informed. I think even your average home buyer likes to be informed. Um what I try to avoid, like the plague, is opinions that are not backed by data, right? And data simply gives you the confidence to make a better informed decision, right? Where I would say it's not just because I think, so I think means nothing, right? But hey, data as an evidence tells me X or Y. And that's why it's absolutely critical.

SPEAKER_01 27:27

Now, you said uh let's say a 15% uh peak to trough would not wipe you uh out. Maybe someone can even argue a 43% peak to trough can be absorbable, but you've been in mortgages for 25 years now, and you've been a big proponent of mortgages, and you label it as it's changing people's lives for good. But obviously, if you have a 43% peak to trough or or even a smaller amount with a mortgage, then you can get wiped out on your real estate. So, how do you balance that drive for making people's lives better with the amplified impact of volatility these mortgages can bring? 100%.

SPEAKER_03 28:01

Look, um, keep in mind 43% was a global financial crisis. So it's a it's an environment where you know, again, it's a global recession, it's something that happens once every probably 20, 25 years. So I don't think right necessarily people should be planning around that incident, right? Like I said, it's when was the last time it happened uh nearly 20 years ago now, right? And it's about time people people get over it. Now, um when it comes to mortgages and real estate, I think the most important factor in your decision, and I do one of the products that we built at uh at Property Finder at the time is a rent versus buy calculator, right? And my guidance to the team was um from my own personal belief, that the most important factor in the home buying decision is time. How long can you hold the property for? You can't treat the real estate market like you do um uh public equities or stocks. Right. In fact, even if you're buying um in the S ⁇ P 500, even if you're even if you're buying, even if you're buying liquid stocks, you should have a long-term view, right? Buy into businesses that you believe in in the long term, um, as opposed to you know speculative trading. Um and and people, unfortunately, many people treat real estate as a speculative asset. It is not, it's a long-term asset to hold. Now, logic is simple, right? There's a finite amount of land on this earth, right? And particularly in this part of the world, we're overproductive. So there's a there's a growing population. Now, you narrow down to this beautiful city that we live in, and within a four-fly four-hour flight around us, this is the most, or even longer, right? This is by far the most pleasant place to be in the whole world. And that's why we've been seeing this massive population growth. Nearly a thousand people a day were moving to the UAE last year in 2025.

SPEAKER_01 30:17

Now, the alternative point of view is yes, there is a finite amount of land, and maybe in islands like Hong Kong, like Singapore, etc., but maybe in places where there's a lot of desert, does this kind of counter that point?

SPEAKER_03 30:32

It could, if demand growth wasn't as real as it is um over here, right? So it you we can't build them fast enough. And again, this is this is um you know, going back to let's say February 2026, where we're seeing that demand of nearly a thousand new residencies um being issued in the UAE every single day, right? So a thousand new new residencies would suggest you need at least 300 units a day, right? Every just imagine, every single day you need to be adding that kind of that kind of stock to to our housing market.

SPEAKER_01 31:12

And when you look at this kind of buy, this versus rent calculator you have now, and I know it varies by district and personal circumstance, et cetera, but generally, what is the data telling you? If I'm in the UE today and I'm looking at this calculator, what am I likely to get? What should I do?

SPEAKER_03 31:29

So um there is something quite unique about the UAE or Dubai's real estate market, right? Where your mortgage rates are lower than your rental yields. So your typical rental yield for a Dubai property is six, two, seven, or eight percent.

SPEAKER_04 31:48

Right.

SPEAKER_03 31:49

And mortgages are lending at sub-4%, which means in essence, it is less expensive to own than to rent. Now, you chart this over a five, six, seven year period, right? Particularly, I would say at a minimum five. If you stay in the property for five years, right, you can absorb up to 15% or more in home price depreciation. So even if the property, I'm not saying stays flat, even if the property drops in price, that means that you're in a better position buying than renting, right? So, in almost absolute terms, you're always better off buying than renting if you stay in that property for a long time. And that's why, you know, our team is trained, and even the conversation that that I have with with close friends and family, when people say, Do you think we should be buying a house? The first question I often ask is, do you like it enough that you can see yourself living in it for three, five years or longer? Right? Don't buy it speculatively. Because you also have the upfront cost of nearly 7% and transaction fees that would need to be absorbed.

SPEAKER_01 33:03

What about the alternative point of view that says, okay, sure, I'm gonna be borrowing at 4% and the rental yield is 6%. So on that calculation, I'm I'm better off buying. However, I'm gonna put, let's say, 25% as equity down payment, which I will not do if I rent. And that 25%, I can take it and buy the SP 500 or buy something else. And that something else will appreciate by more than that 2% difference between buying and renting. And hence I'm still better off renting, paying a higher price, but my appreciation of my other asset will get me even a higher return.

SPEAKER_03 33:41

You can, if you were to treat your property purely as an investment, you're forgetting that we're talking. So when we're talking about an owner-occupied property, we're talking about your home. So um an home is is something that I believe people should hold a bit more dearly than uh than an investment. So, what is more valuable to me, right? My home or um uh an ounce or a few ounces of gold that I own. Right? Gold you can always buy and sell. Your home is something that you're living in, you're creating a life in. You know, your children, your wife, your parents, your friends and family, your you know, nice dinners, etc. So there's a there's a a significantly higher value to one's home. Now, why is that important? Um, I think we we did a survey um during my days at Property Finder, um, and we realized that I think if it was 37 or 38 percent of buyers were motivated by the big, bad, evil rental notice.

SPEAKER_04 34:55

Right?

SPEAKER_03 34:55

Think about it. You're living in this property for the last three, four, five years. You have your kids' toys laying around. Um, uh, you know, you have a lot of these, you know, you have a lot of memories, et cetera, et cetera. And then your landlord, within their right, sends you a letter that says you need to be out in the next 12 months.

unknown 35:15

Right.

SPEAKER_03 35:15

And now you're faced with the reality of going from, let's say, paying $200,000 Dirhams in rent to $350,000 Dharhams in rent. And you're under tremendous financial stress. So there's that stability factor that I think also has a lot of value that people tend to forget about.

SPEAKER_01 35:34

Now, you and I are millennials, so we understand the value of stability, the sentimental value, the emotional value. Do you think that carries through to Gen Z, or is there an argument to say some of these things will change over time as we get what is often described as a rental economy, subscription economy, subscription generation, which may not attribute that same value to these factors?

SPEAKER_03 35:56

Um, data is telling us otherwise. Interesting. Thank you for calling me a millennial, by the way. I think I missed it by a couple of years. Uh but uh I'm gonna hold this very dearly. I agree with so nice to be. Evidence is telling us otherwise, right? Interesting because we're actually seeing the average age of home buyer, at least the data that proprietary data that we were looking at at uh at Mortgage Finder, the average age of home buyer, median age of home buyer is um is declining. Very interesting.

SPEAKER_01 36:30

Yeah, very interesting. Now, uh I think probably linked to the same point is some people say don't link the two decisions. For example, if you're in the UE today, you want to live in a in a place, that place may be, for example, not open to expensive that, for example, you the type of house you may own may not be the most liquid or most alluring on the market. So kind of rent the best unit for you from a living perspective and then go and buy the best unit from a rental yield and incompetation, which may be, for example, maybe a studio, maybe a one-bed, maybe different. How do you think about that? Like linking the two decisions, living and buying, versus treating them as separate decisions? Absolutely separate decisions.

SPEAKER_03 37:10

Uh your home, right? There's a difference between a home and a house. I don't believe someone's home should be treated as an investment.

unknown 37:19

Right?

SPEAKER_03 37:20

Um, it it isn't, right? It's home. Now, again, are you committed to this particular home? And more importantly, are you committed to the city? Right? Or are you trading Dubai, are you treating Dubai like a trade show or a hotel or resort destination that you're just gonna come here, spend a couple of years, make a ton of money, and go back to um you know, wherever. Um, if you're committed enough to the city, if you're committed enough to the life that you're building over here, then absolutely buy your own home. It's not an investment. And that like honestly, today, it doesn't matter if my house goes up, down, or sideways in price. Over the past four or five years, uh uh, you know, our friends in the real estate community, um three to five phone calls a day, right? And they throw all kinds of wild numbers at me. None of it phased me. Right. Um, you know, whether it's um, you know, numbers that would have suggested my home doubled in the first year or tripled or whatever. It doesn't matter. When they gave me really high prices, it didn't phase me. When now, right, they're calling and and and throwing, you know, very strange offers. Um it's not, it doesn't phase me either. It's home. We like it. We uh, you know, we renovated it, it's it's it's built for purpose. It's uh um our family's very, very happy in it. Uh my mom is incredibly comfortable with her nice little bedroom. Um uh it's not so little. We we bought this property mainly because of the size of the bedroom downstairs that it, you know, that my mom really, really enjoys. And um, it doesn't matter if somebody pays me $100 million um uh you know for for the property, unless I'm able to find my mom a more comfortable bedroom, I'm not leaving.

SPEAKER_01 39:24

Now, I bought your arguments. I wanna buy in the in the in the UE. Sometimes you get overwhelmed. So many developers, projects, off plan, ready, uh, mortgages, mortgage advisors. Where do I start?

SPEAKER_03 39:37

Um definitely with a mortgage advisory firm. Okay. Um and and even before I find the property itself. 100%, right? Because you wanna you wanna know your you want to understand your limits, um, and and um and and and plan accordingly, and you want to know how much you can afford um uh and uh and then go find a property for a few reasons. One is you wanna be able to calculate your affordability and plan your financials uh properly. Um two is it puts you in a much stronger position when you're negotiating with sellers and real estate agents, right? When you go in and say, I have a mortgage pre-approval from a credible uh from a credible mortgage provider, like a mortgage finder or or a bank and et cetera. So um it puts you in a much stronger position while while you're negotiating, as opposed to saying, okay, fine, I'm gonna make an offer and then go apply for a for for a mortgage. So you're taken a lot more seriously.

SPEAKER_01 40:35

Now, this mortgage affordability concept, uh, now talk to us about it. So I'll say I'm gonna connect with an advisor, but for me to understand what this really means, how do I calculate it?

SPEAKER_03 40:46

So um that's what our advisors are are trained to do. Usually it's um uh so you don't have to calculate it as a home buyer. That's why Mortgage Finder um you know exists. We have calculators online that can help you do it. And then we also have human beings, which is always my recommended path. It's a free service, so you might as well use it and speak to an expert. Um in a nutshell, uh, central bank here says that your total liability commitments on a monthly basis should not exceed 50% of your monthly income. Which means your mortgage payment, your car loans, your car payment, your personal loans, and your credit card bills cannot exceed 50% of your of your payments. Now, a few mechanics, if you'd like, uh that that that I can that I'm happy to get into, right? Please. On your mortgage payment, right, it is not calculated on the basis of the actual mortgage payment at, let's say, 4% rate. Banks apply what they call a stress rate, right? Of saying, we're going to calculate your affordability as if rates were 2% higher. Why? Because banks here are overly risk averse, right?

SPEAKER_01 42:01

Because I'm borrowing on a floating basis. So that's something running the risk that if the interest rate increases, then my but it's fixed for the certain number of years.

SPEAKER_03 42:11

The eight plus percent of the transactions that we've originated, and I'm talking about thousands of transactions over the past few years, um, are the three-year fixed product. Okay, which people often refinance after the dollar. No, um, but precisely, this is why they calculated on the basis of a stress rate that says I borrow, which is today, let's say, in the 4% range, plus um uh a couple of percent.

SPEAKER_01 42:36

If after the three fixed years end the rates go up and you don't refinance into a fixed, then can you still afford at the higher rate?

SPEAKER_03 42:42

Correct. And also because banks here are still traumatized 18 years later by the 2008-2009 global financial crisis. They are refusing to get over it, right? Uh nine out of ten bankers I speak to are still living in 2009. Oh, but what if 2009 happens again? Um, yeah. So um that's so banks are very uh are overly risk averse in this part of the world, which by the way, it's it's very frustrating, right, when you think about it from um uh you and those of us in in the industry or even as a as a home buyer, because it's incredibly limiting, but at the same time, it's comforting and prudent, right? So all of this fear mongering that you see happening around um over um over potential defaults and et cetera, is a lot less likely to happen in a market with so much prudence from central bank, right, than it is to happen in an environment like the one we were living in in the US prior to 2008 financial crisis, right? And I was in the middle of that storm, right? So I I can I can definitely see the contrast between, and it is a it is a contrast, it's it's an extreme between how prudent our financial Financial system is here and how irresponsible the financial system was in the US prior to 2008. So back to affordability. They're going to calculate your mortgage payment as if your rate was a couple of percentage points higher. Then they're going to, you know, fixed installments like personal loans and car payments. So this is where banks get a real a bit annoying. Let's say, for example, I have a um I you have a car payment, right? Or a car loan with only six months remaining on the loan. You're going to still take a hit on your debt service ratio. I'm taking a 20-year mortgage, right? And you're evaluating my affordability on the basis of the next six months. Right? Like a little bit of.

SPEAKER_01 44:49

So are you better off on these cases just closing some of these? Okay.

SPEAKER_03 44:53

Which is where our advisors come in handy, right? Because we, you know, the advisors would would would take a holistic view of your financials, and then they advise you to make certain tweaks accordingly. I don't know, lower your um, you know, lower your down payment by X, you know, I don't know, 20,000 drams and pay off these loans. Now the third thing they look at is credit cards, and this is very important. In the US, in fact, in most markets, right, your credit card debt with the credit bureau is usually calculated on the basis of your average outstanding balances. In the UAE, they don't calculate affordability on outstanding balances, they calculate it on the basis of your credit lines. The whole limit. The whole limit. So let's say, for example, right, I have a credit card with a 300,000 that ham limit, right? But I pay off the balance every month. My balance is zero, right, at the end of every month. Sometimes even negative, right? Um, sometimes we overpay. Yes. Um, you know, so but then central bank or the banks here um calculate your affordability as if you're paying 15,000 a month. That is 5% of your total credit limit. So a lot of times what we're having to do is we advise people to reduce lower or reduce their their credit lines.

SPEAKER_01 46:16

You you also mentioned uh the mortgage, you give an example, just hypothetical, of 20 years. Do you always encourage people to max out the number of years they can take so they can reduce the burden and do multiple things with their cash over time? Or do you say, like, just try to compress it, get it done, so kind of you get it off your back and you move on to something else?

SPEAKER_03 46:36

I can think of 75 things that would yield me better than 4%. Right? Like almost what no matter where you put your money, you can make better than 4%. So max it out. Absolutely maximize it, I think.

SPEAKER_01 46:49

Yeah, some people just psychologically they think of debt as a burden that they don't necessarily want to carry for the rest of their lives. Also, on the title deed, it's like the name of the bank appears, it's mortgage. Is this just psychological? Do you see that in the data, or is it just I'm I'm I'm like look, not all debt is created equal, right?

SPEAKER_03 47:12

Um credit card debt, particularly in this country, is um is quite painful. 44% interest.

SPEAKER_01 47:22

44.

SPEAKER_03 47:22

44% or as well some banks would call it profit. Um so um it it's um it's it's it's painful. If you get into if you get yourself into a credit card debt hole, um it'll take you know, it's very, very, very difficult to get out of it. Okay because it's compounding. And that's why a lot of people you find um, you know, you know, let's say you if you have 500,000 darahams in credit card debt, you're paying 25,000 dharhams a month and your balance is remaining the same. So make that 50,000 dharhams in debt, right? You're paying 2,500 dharhams a month every month. That's a car payment, right? That's could be someone's rent. Paying 2,500 dharhams a month on 50,000 dharhams of debt, and your balance is staying the same.

SPEAKER_01 48:21

Wow. Wow. Now you're kind of, I know you have the the consumer's interest at heart from an ethical perspective, but at the end of the day, you're also a business. And whether you're a mortgage advisor, whether you're a bank, you're a mortgage provider, you're kind of in a way on the other side of this, right? Where you're making you're making money. How do you balance that interest? How do you balance that kind of ethical question?

SPEAKER_03 48:47

That was the first thing I obsessed with when I joined Property Finder, right? Is I looked at so at the time, this was September 2021, right? Um, Property Finder had acquired uh Mortgage Finder a few years before, but it was like a sort of sort of a dormant asset, um, you know, sitting within the the huge um success story that Property Finder has been over the past few years. Um, and it was a bit untouched. So I looked at this business, met the team, right? Um, and I realized something fairly consistent, and that's the integrity of people we have. Right. Um they really did acquire a great business. Uh it was a it was a formidable team of people who are seasoned in industry and more importantly who had integrity, and there was a culture, right, of advising in the best interest of home buyers as opposed to the best interest of the mortgage broker, and that is um you know proper forward thinking. The question I then asked is okay, well, this is great. There's like five of them, right? I want a 10x this business, right? So how can we build it at scale? Right? How can we be an honest mortgage advisory service at scale? Right? And we did it through a couple of things. One is the incentive structure or the the commission structure was aligned with the interest of the home buyer and not the interest of the mortgage broker. So 99% of mortgage brokers in the UAE and globally, right, they pay their mortgage advisors commission only. Well, guess what? You have banks who pay 50 basis points or half a percentage, and then you have banks who pay 1.5%. How do I know, right, that my mortgage advisor is advising me to go to the bank that is that makes the most sense for me as opposed to the most sense for them. So we created a compensation structure that aligns with the consumer or with the home buyer as opposed to the mortgage broker by paying them a salary and a commission structure per transaction that is not directly correlated to how much money we earn from the banks. Interesting, right? So that's that's that's one. Um you fix it. Two is we put a lot of safeguards and you know quality assurance um uh you know standards, if you'd like, to ensure we audit. I personally obsessed with it for many years, where I would go in and I would audit the advisory that was provided to um to our borrowers. And again, it had to turn into an obsession, right? Um, I interviewed each and every single new mortgage advisor who joined the company, right? And there is usually my one question where I decide um whether or not they're gonna join. So they go through a series of interviews, they meet the team leads, they meet the sales director, et cetera. And then they come to me and I'm usually asking them one or two, three questions, and usually I give them a formula and I say, hey, we have this borrower who qualifies for HSBC and uh DIB. Right? These are the terms from HSBC and these are the terms from DIB. Long story short, I build a formula for them that shows one bank better for the borrower, but less money for the business, and another bank that is better for the business, that that is that is a less favorable deal for the borrower, but better for the business.

SPEAKER_04 52:27

Right.

SPEAKER_03 52:27

If they choose this one, they disqualify immediately, right? If they choose this one, if they choose the one that is better for the borrower, then that's usually a sign of so it's doing two things, right? One, it's giving us a sign that this is somebody who has natural in, you know, and naturally inclined to have more integrity. The the the other thing is you're setting the tone from the very first interaction the mortgage advisor is having with the with the MD with the with with the guy running the business, that that's what matters today. The last thing is one of our key, if not the key, and I've obsessed with it, I hope, and I really hope the team maintains that legacy post my departure. Um there's one metric that I obsess with consistently to a point where I drove people nuts for the four and a half years that I led Mortgage Finder, and that is five-star Google Reviews. Right? On every board pack, right, every quarterly business review or every weekly business review, every um conversation with the team, every all hands, um, every post I celebrate on on our internal Slack channel, right? All I talked about was five-star Google reviews. So when I go, when I went into um, you know, you know, deliver my quarterly business review, um, you know, corporate world, they they have you have all these acronyms, QBRs and WBRs and blah, blah, blah. When I delivered my QBRs or WBRs to Michael, right, um, the first metric I would report consistently was five-star reviews.

unknown 54:07

Right?

SPEAKER_03 54:08

That's saying something, right? The last metric I reported was bottom line or Ibita. Right. Even though we delivered incredibly impressive Ibita, we, you know, over over the four and a half years that I that I spent with the business, um, our Ibita margin 10x.

SPEAKER_01 54:26

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 54:27

So you went from um you know lower single digits to very, very healthy double-digit Ibita margins. Wow. But that was the last thing I reported. First thing was five-star reviews. Wow. It turned into an obsession.

SPEAKER_01 54:41

Wow. Now, one of the things you mentioned is which bank to go to. Some people say I just go to the bank where I transfer my salary because that always offers me the better terms because they have the salary security. So they're more inclined to offer better terms than other banks. Is that true? Um, uh true, but inconvenient.

SPEAKER_03 55:00

So for look, if you are a um if you're a lifer, right, uh, which some people are, you know, some people love their employer, they want to be with it um for the rest of their lives, fine, maybe. The the the the problem you have with the salary transfer mortgage is if you change your job, it is a royal pain in the um head um to manage uh to manage your finances because the bank's gonna put a block on your on your on your checking account until you go find another job, and it's just a big royal mess. So typically we don't recommend it. Look, could it would it make maybe a uh 25 basis points or a quarter percentage point difference on your mortgage payment? Yes. To me, is 80 dirhams or 150 dirhams worth that risk?

SPEAKER_01 55:54

No. Very interesting. What else would you recommend people to do or not to do when it comes to a mortgage?

SPEAKER_03 56:02

Um check the mortgage advisor's five-star Google reviews. Um, and I'd say, look, don't go directly to banks, right? Because you're gonna go to a bank, the bank is only gonna offer you um their set of mortgage products, right? When you go to a mortgage advisory firm, um, then you're getting visibility on the whole, on, on, on the whole market. And the team at Mortgage Finder now is is building products that is gonna unlock that visibility digitally into um uh you know another level. So hopefully they're gonna take it to another dimension.

SPEAKER_01 56:36

And now, when I personally went for a mortgage, uh, the first thing the bank would advise or asked from me was to get them the credit report. Uh now, apart from the obviously the obvious advice of pay everything on time, uh how else can I keep my credit report uh strong?

SPEAKER_03 56:54

Um mainly pay everything on time. Obviously, the the length of history that you have on your on your credit report helps. Um I think your um your credit line utilization uh will also will also be a factor. Um the uh the the proportion of your balance to your credit line will also be a factor.

SPEAKER_01 57:19

Um now I had uh made the mistake you talked about on credit cards. So before I got my uh so actually I got uh I got a mortgage when I moved to the UE. Uh then I had another, another another mortgage. So in between, you know, you have all of these credit card guys calling you saying, hey, by the way, I've got this free for life credit card and it has Mario points, I've got this free for and it has miles. And it's all like a lounge action, it's all like nice benefits and lifestyle. One gives you uh a miles. So you keep accumulating these cards and you end up with like seven, eight different cards because each one of them is nice for something. And then you get into the mortgage, and then the guy goes, but these all, as you said, cut across the limit, and then now you need to cancel them or reduce the limit, and you figure out it's much more difficult to cancel a card or reduce its limit compared to getting a card.

SPEAKER_03 58:06

Every engagement that has to do with banks is is is painful. I can't wait for Mal to be born because uh I know, and I'm really, really hoping that the team is working on a much better experience. Yeah, I mean, calling a bank to reduce your credit line is is gonna be painful. Um getting a liability letter, right? So, for example, you want to go and let's say you owe money on a on a personal loan or a car loan, right, and you want to pay it off. Dude, it took me like three weeks to pay off a car loan. I don't want it. I'm getting I'm go if I'm going to the bank and I am begging the bank to pay the money. I want to return your money. And yeah, but you have to come in person. You go in person and they say, I swear to God, I had the story, and I'm not gonna name the bank because it's mean. Um, you know, I called on the phone and they said you have to come in person. I went in person, and the guy says, Yeah, but now it's a digital process, you have to send us an email. Hamam is Zajil, right?

SPEAKER_02 59:07

I'm like, Are you serious?

SPEAKER_03 59:09

I could have sent you an email before coming here. Um, so they they they drag you, you take that token thing, and then you wait and you know, you wait on the chair, um 45 minutes, an hour. Um, if you're lucky, you have to find parking outside and et cetera. Um, and then for you to wait for an hour, and then for the bankrupt to tell you you have to send us an email. Fine, I send them an email, right? And then um, you know, I wait one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight days, right? It's really frustrating, right? And it everything is just compounding time, and it could all happen digitally in an instant. You should be able to get your liability letter in real time now, right? Um, it's absolutely, you know, so many of the banks here, unfortunately, are still operating in the 1960s.

unknown 1:00:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:06

Now, you talked about uh stress, the concept of stress testing by the banks. You talked about from uh from an interest perspective, interest rate. But as a person, now how else should I stress test my own financial situation before I take so maybe today I can afford it? Obviously, there's again the obvious example of what happens if I lose my job, but what else should I factor in as other risk that can happen when I'm trying to size how much can I afford?

SPEAKER_03 1:00:30

Um, it it's it's your look, it's your confidence in your ability to continue generating an income. Right. Um, I think that's the most important question that you need to be asking. You know, how how safe is my job? Right? Um, you know, hopefully you're doing a great job and you're you're delivering great value and you know you have that sort of security. Um also the awareness with what's happening in the world around you, right? How safe is my job? How safe is my end, how safe is my company? So start with yourself. How well am I doing? Two, how well is my company doing? And three, how well is the general economy doing?

SPEAKER_04 1:01:08

Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:08

Um, and I think that gives you, I think uh answering these three questions is gonna give you a sense of how um likely your income is to be secure. The second thing is um obviously it's very important to have a little bit of a cash cushion, right? Um, you know, particularly in this part of the world, uh, where um you know you need to always have a cushion of let's say six months worth of if you lose your job today, that you have enough cash that would last you for you know, ideally no less than six months to a year before you take on a massive commitment like uh like a mortgage. Having said that, Yusuf, this is all theoretical, right? In reality, when I bought my first home, I was under extreme financial stress, but it worked out well. So um most people that we know when they buy their first home, it's usually quite stressful and and difficult. So I can always give you advice on what's ideal, what's optimal, right? But we don't live in an ideal world, and most people don't optimize.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:19

Makes sense. Uh now the other also uh mistake I made is I I even though I I I had in a way taken your advice, not literally, because you're just telling me now, but of extending the mortgage for uh for longer, uh I had made the mistake of prepaying faster because again, I wanted to get this this burden off. Uh and then at a time, like uh a good few years ago, there was the option to uh take home equity out of the of the of the of the apartment so you can kind of refinance it again and uh and use the money. So I did that. But again, I did the mistake of like paying it for the second time, paying it a bit faster. And then when I tried to do this for the for the for the another time, I was told no, the rules now change. You can only take money out now of an apartment if it's towards uh a home improvement or if you're buying another real estate for an approved vendor, but it's no longer like before that you can take money out and go do something. Is that still the case? What drove that change? How do you how do you see that?

SPEAKER_03 1:03:20

This, my friend, is what I call a problem worth solving. It's my property. I built this equity into it by you know paying my blood and sweat into my mortgage payment every single month for the last, I don't know, how many years? I have five, six million dirhams or 500,000 dharhams of equity available to me at 80% loan to value. What business is it of the bank to tell me what to do with it? It's my money, right? What if I want to pull out a cash advance, right? Or what if I want to pull out an equity release cash so I can consolidate my credit card debt? That's just one example, right? It is a prudent thing to do, right? And it's in the best interest of the bank because it's improving the borrower's risk profile. What if I want to take out an equity release so I can pay off a personal loan and drop my payment from 15,000 dharhams a month to 3,000 dharhams a month or 5,000 dharhams a month, right? Oh no, you have to use it for um you know either buying a buying another property or um uh renovation.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:30

And even the other property, I because I was doing something off plan, even that couldn't really work. It has to be like approved vendor, approved project, or something like that.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:37

They have to make it difficult, right? Because I think a lot of unfortunately, uh a lot of a lot of people in the risk business, um, maybe they're programmed to wake up in the morning and say, How can I make people's lives more difficult?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:50

And they push you towards a personal loan where they make also more money because the interest is higher, unfortunately, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:04:56

Yeah. Um that's that, I mean, it could be that's that's a let's call it a conspiracy theory. Could be that could be uh could be possible. But look, um uh financial access, I think, is one of uh is a is a is a is a key enabler of growth in any economy. Um I have unconditional faith, and it's literally unconditional faith in this country and in this city, right? Where I know with enough of us challenging these uh these weird practices, something will be done. I think the regulators are gonna be stepping up. There's something really unique about the UAE UCF, right? Where in most markets in the world, you find the private sector quite often pushing the regulators. In here, it's the regulators pushing ahead of the private sector. So the faith that I have is a lot of these weird, twisted banking practices will be challenged by people like you and I. Um And and uh and and hopefully you have maybe some random entrepreneur breaking out some ideas to fix this very problem um in the in in in the coming weeks or months. But yeah, it's absolutely ridiculous. Yeah, he what if I want to pull a million darhams out of my property to live my midlife crisis and buy a 9-11 turbo? It's my equity. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:24

Very excited for that.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:26

Uh don't do, by the way. Yeah, it's it's not the prudent thing to do to pull home equity and buy a 9-11 turbo. No, no, it's just using it as an extreme example.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:34

Yeah, but look, I think, I think, I think a lot of people argue then if they financial freedom and economic freedom, people will make mistakes, but you cannot like people are adults, and that's part of the development of the system. People, some some people will make mistakes, but economic freedom is a critical part of the development of the system, and acting as a custodian wasty on people just isn't necessarily the right thing to do philosophically, religiously from a value perspective, even if we have to tolerate some mistakes being made in the process.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:05

Let people make mistakes. Look, I think banks are within their rights to have their own risk limitations. So, for example, you have you have levers, you have LTV, right? And then you have DSR. So loan to value, you're capping at 70% or 80%. That's within your right, because that's how you measure your own risk, right? And you have recourse. In other words, if I don't pay my mortgage, you can kick me out of my house. What more do you want? Right?

unknown 1:07:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:33

So that's one. Two is you're able to calculate my affordability because we have at the Hat Credit Bureau and you have that full visibility. Think about it. When you borrow, when you're borrowing in the UAE or any other metro market for that, for that matter, you are completely naked in front of the bank, right? They can see everything about their your financials, they can see how much money you make, how much money you owe, et cetera, et cetera. So you know everything about me as a borrower, and you have security over my asset quite often, my home, where my children live, right? Um, what more do you want? Why do you need to get involved? Why do you need to decide on my behalf, as if I'm a child and you're the adult, right? What I am to use my money for. It is absolutely twisted. But like I said, my faith, my bet is that our um uh you know leadership in this in this country is going to uh to to to to help us drive these agendas um uh across the line.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:36

Now you mentioned the few obsessions you have. Another obsession you've mentioned previously is the rent now pay later. Yeah. Why is that an obsession? Oof, man.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:46

Uh I'm so I'm so over the moon that we're finally working on that partnership at Property Finder with Keeper for many reasons. I had attempted to solve this problem with Walid, uh, one of the co-founders of Keeper, um, when when we were building when we built Urban. And we did it at the time in a partnership with uh with Emirates MBDs. So I've been obsessing with uh monthly rent payments for the last five or six years. Look, it's the obvious, right? The rest of the world, most of the rest of the world, people pay their rent monthly. I earn my salary monthly. Why should I pay my rent once a year? That's pure common sense. Two, you are less likely to default. Right? If you're paying your rent monthly, think about it, it's you're less likely to default than having to come up with 50,000 dharhams in one go, or sometimes half a million dharhams in one go, depending on where you're renting, right? Um, so you're less likely to default. Three data, at least in the US, I looked at data that says people are five times less likely, five or six times less likely to default on the rent payment than any of their other liabilities. So people always prioritize paying their rent. Yeah, we have this 1970s practice. Um, everything in this country is shiny and glitzy and beautiful except real estate and real estate finance, right? Um, and again, and I have faith it's gonna change. I know it's gonna change in the next in the next months. Um it's uh that's how much conviction I have, right? It will change, right? Um, so it you know, again, it you earn your money monthly. Why are you paying in one go? Um, you're less likely to default, uh, you know, you know, pay pay paying monthly. And then thankfully, now, you know, keeper um as and and and walid and Omar are solving for this problem. And I've been I've been with them on this journey since day zero, you know, because they took the vision that we had at the you know, part of the vision that we had at Urban. And um, when I think Walid Mansoor from MEVP at the time called me and says, Hey, I want you to meet these guys, to meet Omar. Um, and I introduced Omar to to Walid. Um he says he wants to solve this problem. And I said, anything I can do to help. I couldn't do it because obviously there was the urban saga and uh and the business didn't continue. Um, but if anybody else is able to pull this off, I will do anything and everything in my power to help them. I even uh tried or attempted to, we we offered uh keeper a balance uh a term sheet out of the growth debt funds uh that I advise in in Europe. Um and I will perpetually always be supportive of that initiative.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:44

Now talk to us about this growth debt because obviously, for a lot of startups in the in the Middle East who have extensive requirements because either they are lending money, they're in any capital heavy business, and kind of for for them, continuing to raise equity is prohibitively dilutive. And they kind of look for debt, but obviously most banks would not look at startups because they don't have audit financials with positive net income, they don't have a positive equity balance on the balance sheet, lots of different reasons. So, what's this growth debt? How can they find it?

SPEAKER_03 1:12:17

Um, so uh you you have quite a handful of local funds who have a uh who are in a uh in who have a growth debt fund. Um, I know Sharuk um is someone that I will always highly recommend above and beyond anybody else, um, at least in this part of the world, Flashpoint Um has been um you know actively searching and originating for um uh uh for for growth debt opportunities. Now, why growth debt? If you are a business growing at, let's say, 50% or more year over year, right? And you have healthy cash flow, you have healthy unit economics, right? It is a hundred times better to raise debt for growth than it is to raise equity. Because as a founder, you're minimizing your dilution and you're injecting that growth capital into the into the business without having to dilute. That is, if the economics of your business are supporting it and you're you you're you're delivering growth and you have confidence in your ability to deliver growth moving forward. Now, most credible debt funds would know how to evaluate that almost on your behalf as a as a founder. Um, but I think it's absolutely worth exploring.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:34

Is that the same as venture debt? Is that different? It's the same. Yeah. And what's the minimum?

SPEAKER_03 1:13:39

I mean, you know how it is in in the investment banking and VC space, right? We always try to come up with fancier words so we can sound smarter.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:46

So today, if I'm a startup, what's the minimum? Let's say I'm uh I'm in the lending business, I'm a fintech, etc. What is some of the minimum things that you think? Is there a minimum uh amount to raise? Is there a minimum revenue I should be making uh today? How do I qualify for something like this?

SPEAKER_03 1:14:00

So the different funds have different lending criteria, right? Um I I can speak for I can speak for Flashpoint because it's something I'm fairly I'm very close to. Um we usually come on the backside of an equity round, of a fresh equity round, right? So that's that's one criteria. Two is we usually lend at a 20 to 25 percent of um uh so no more than 20 LTV or 25% LTV. In other words, if your valuation is $100 million, we're likely to extend credit up to 20 million dirahams or $20 million or a little bit more for you. The third criteria is we look for businesses that are delivering uh 50% or more year-over-year growth with healthy unit economics. Um and uh naturally it it it's it's very, very important that we believe in the fundamentals of the business. We believe in um in in the founders and uh uh and teams, and and that's that's fairly standard growth that uh uh you know growth that criteria. Uh Shiruk, uh to my knowledge, is more in the asset-backed lending space. Um, so um and the team, you know, I know Joe, um terrific guy. Obviously, Mahmoud is the first class human of all first-class humans. Uh capo di tutti capos. Indeed. Uh and uh uh yeah, it's uh I I would highly recommend them. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:25

And what's the typical cost of instruments like these to companies?

SPEAKER_03 1:15:29

Um look, this is where it gets quite competitive, right? Uh another one, by the way, PFG, Partners for Growth Army, has been um has been an inspirational, I think, to anybody in the in the venture debt space because she's been betting on this part of the world for many, many years and um has been the most arguably one of the most hyperactive growth debt provider. Um Franklin Templeton um also um, you know, they just did a transaction with the with with Keeper. Um terms vary um depending on on the on the business, depending on the fund. Um you know, Flashpoint tends to be um uh quite often competitive to to a lot of these terms. Usually growth debt terms are a combination of um coupon and warrants. So you're usually being, let's say, I don't know, um 11, 12 to 15, 16 percent um uh you know interest on the on your growth debt, in addition to an equity warrant that usually ranges between five and fifteen percent. How do equity warrants work? So it is a growth that's funds um essentially take an option to buy equity in your business up to five years from now at today's valuation. Let's say you have a hundred million uh dollar valuation. We can say as a fund, we have the option to buy up to five percent of your business for five million dollars between now and the next five years, which is more cash for me as a business.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:05

So, sure, obviously it's coming at a lower valuation, maybe than what valuation will be in the future, but it's also not for free. Ultimately, I'm still getting cash for it. Yes. Yes, understood. And what type of security do you take? Like we talked, obviously, the mortgage is business very straightforward. I sign a check, you take the deed. Uh, how does it work in companies and startups and growth debt?

SPEAKER_03 1:17:23

And by the way, mortgages is is even more, right? Um because mortgage puts you in a personal liability. Mortgage lenders here, are you ready for this? They not only have security over your property, they make you sign a check that can put you in jail if you don't pay.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:37

Weren't uh weren't these uh decriminalized these uh these checks that you elo?

SPEAKER_03 1:17:42

Not that I know of.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:43

Wow. Yeah. Wow. So it's still a criminal offense.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:46

I mean, at least I but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:47

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:48

So um usually um uh again, um standard practice, uh venture debt comes in as senior secured. Um so in the um uh hopefully uh I hope no founder goes through that experience, but um, in in the unfortunate event of liquidation, the debt provider uh will recover their investment ahead of pref shares or before uh preferred shareholders.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:17

Now, this is I think what has been one of the common criticisms of venture debt. We've had examples in the region where companies will seem to be doing very well and then suddenly almost disappeared. And the story that came out, now whether true or not, that look, the venture debt guys don't care because they just want to recover. And as you said, maybe their debt is only 20, 25% of the company, but they're just willing to take the keys and basically recover the money, and all of a sudden, 75-80% is wiped out because the interests are not aligned.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:49

Why would I want, as a venture debt provider, right? Why would I want the keys to a failing business? I want the money. So it and look, I I I I watched, and I think this is one of the reasons why I chose to to support uh Dennis Ilia and the rest of the the team at Flashpoint is I watched how they behave in 2020. And that was when I said, all right, you know what, these are guys worth helping. I watched them desperately um doing anything and everything in their power to help raise equity or additional equity to a few startups in Europe that whose revenues went down to zero. You know, some of these were some of these guys were friends of mine. That's what piqued my interest, right? Um and you know, they came in and they said, look, here's a business. We fundamentally believe in the business, we believe in the and we we we believe in the in the founders. We know they will bounce back post-COVID, right? We need to come together and help them. So they offered them, for example, they offered them relief and um you know, paused uh that service payment for I think six months or 12 months, even in some cases, in a in a in a case, they even extended more credit. Um, and then they called every equity provider under the sun uh that they knew, uh, trying to provide that support to the founder. That's the kind of partner that you want. When I I'd say um when you are a um, you know, if if if you're a startup and you're seeking venture debt, um, or you you know, if you're seeking capital to begin with, right? Um optimize for, and I think this takes us back to the beginning of our conversation. Um, optimize for the relationship, not the transaction. Do you trust um this this this investor? Um, you know, have you asked about this investor? Did you get references? Um, you know, how good is their reputation? How honest are they? Um, you know, et cetera.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:54

Now, uh, if I'm on the other side of the table, I'm the founder. As you said, the the fund is looking for me to demonstrate in difficult times how I will bounce back and how this is a real business. What sort of things, both in terms of traction metrics, etc., and in terms of mindset that I can demonstrate that make people make the decision to come in with me on the journey, stay with me on the on the journey. So either I'm I'm a founder who's starting or I'm a founder in a tough time. How can I come across to you as the right person to bet on?

SPEAKER_03 1:21:26

It's how it's how quickly you act, right? And how dynamic your business model is, and more importantly, how flexible are you as a founder to adjust according to the circumstances that you're in? Right? You know, do we need to pivot your business model? Are you um looking for alternative solutions to earn revenue?

SPEAKER_04 1:21:50

Right?

SPEAKER_03 1:21:51

Um, you know, how are you managing your cost um at times of uh at difficult times? Um, you know, how uh how prudent is your is your PL management at these times? And then um how deeply do you understand your space and your industry in this environment? And and are you able to project some predictability um over what how you're mitigating that risk?

SPEAKER_01 1:22:21

Now, you've been a mentor, as you said, you've built, you've been executive in existing uh companies, you're an advisor to to venture debt. What connects all of this? Like who who are you at at the heart, Hammer, and what what brings all of this together? Maybe I don't like myself.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:40

I'm a problem solver. Um I think if if you were to um you know what brings me joy is um is is is solving problems. For whatever reason, right, I tend to obsess with uh with problems that have not been solved. So usually what really piques my interest, um, what what what gets me you know sort of energized and excited is um you know when you when you're talking about something and you're saying, why isn't this done? And somebody says, well, you know, because it can't. Wait, why? Right? If this product, if if there's a lending product that is a mainstream lending product in the US since the early 80s, why doesn't it exist here? Well, because central bank doesn't allow it. That piques my interest. Or somebody says, um, you know, there's this or that problem. Um, you know, a very close friend of mine in government called me uh um just yesterday and says, hey, um, you know, we we have this challenge happening in liquidity in a certain sector. Um, how can we solve it? Um, you know, and again, the economics and the math behind it make sense. It we usually really gets me energized.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:00

You said your journey and any journey is not a series of successes, it's a roller coaster of ups and downs. What have these been these key ups and downs for you? Oof.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:18

Um there's a um there's a book called What It Takes, written by uh written by uh Steve Schwartzmann, the founder of Blackstone, in which he says um, and I I remember when I read that page, I know it's a bit weird for a man to be in tears when reading a business book. Right. Um, but that was on uh that was the summer following the urban saga, right? Tell us about the urban saga. So you mentioned a couple of times. It was the summer following the urban saga. Okay. Um when I was when I was reading Schwartzman's book, and it says Um, every entrepreneur knows this. That moment of despair, where the only thing you're aware of is the giant gap between where you find yourself and where you had imagined your life and business. When you succeed, people see your success. When you fail, they see only the failure. Rarely do people see the inflection points that could have taken you in either direction. And it's at these inflection points that the biggest lessons in life and business are learned. Um I cannot begin as as common sense as that paragraph was, and I love that I memorized it. Um maybe I'm paraphrasing, but um it as common sense as it was, it hit really deep. It it really resonated. Um I think urban was a uh one of the most important lessons of my entire uh of my entire career. Um being an entrepreneur at that time, I think the lesson learned. Uh being an entrepreneur at that time, I think being stubborn as an entrepreneur is is important. It's an important trait. You have to have conviction, you have to believe in what you're doing, and you have to continue selling the rest of the world, right? Um, and I always advise entrepreneurs accordingly, and I say, look, your investors are uh you know your partners, right? Uh you shouldn't go. You shouldn't be you shouldn't be told by an investor how to run your business, right? You have to have and own your vision and know where you want to go with it. And it's an on-the-bus, off the bus kind of conversation. Hey, Mr. Install, I want to go to Razakhema. You want to come along? If the investor wants to go to Alain, you say, okay, you know, good luck, Daufi, enjoy. Maybe you like Alain more. I'm more of a Razakhema guy.

unknown 1:27:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:07

So it you have to agree on a destination. Or in most cases, this conversation is I want to go to Mars. Right? Um, and you know, you want to go to uh Hatta. So I'm uh you know, my destination is much further than than what you're trying to do. So I think uh having conviction and being stubborn is is very, very important. Um risking other people's livelihoods, right, is um is is something that an entrepreneur and a founder needs to take very, very seriously. I had days at um the the the put it to you this way, I was borrowing I was taking cash advances on a credit card unfortunately. Forty-four percent interest to make payroll. Partial payroll. There's a balance between conviction and immaturity, right? That a founder needs to always have. So I I'd say the lesson learned at that inflection point is if you have to take out cash advances on a credit card to pay your employee salary, then you're probably time to fold, right? You know, maybe the time to fold was three months before, right? Um so I I I I definitely think keep yourself surrounded um by uh you know mature founders and investors who have done it before. Um, listen to advice, right? Um and uh, you know, I don't want to say put a limit to your ambition or your conviction or your stubbornness. Um but you know, but at least I always say to every founder, once you choose the life of a founder, you need to accept that you're no longer responsible for your life. You're now responsible for the lives of every employee you bring onto your business. So before hiring, you want to ask yourself, you know, can the business sustain this hire? You know, before spending um, you know, a couple million dirhams or a few hundred thousand dollars on a on a social media campaign, you ask, you know, okay, fine, can the business sustain this risk?

SPEAKER_01 1:29:40

Uh you mentioned investors are partners. Um now there's an alternative point of view that says no, they you are a capital custodian for the capital of these investors. So they're more than partners. You are responsible to deliver on their capital. And ultimately, if you disagree on the destination, it's their money, it's their capital, and you're an agent or custodian of that capital. They're the ultimate beneficiaries. How do you see it?

SPEAKER_03 1:30:07

Look, there's a fiduciary duty that you have towards your investors, 100%. Now, when I say that the partnership that I'm talking about is I always urge founders to say spend as much time, right, as much effort as you can aligning with your investor early on. Don't change your story halfway through. Um, and look, I understand that sometimes you have to change your story. Sometimes you're forced to pivot, right? But invest enough time, right, aligning with your investor on the um you know, the core strategy of your business, right? And most importantly, your destination. So I think the kind of conversations that I like to have with investors is one, before I even decide whether I want to approach this investor or not, is I'm gonna be asking myself, am I aligned with him or her on core values? Right? What do I mean by core values, right? Um, this could be, you know, integrity, honesty, truth telling, um, you know, how do I want to treat my team? Uh, how do I want to hire? How do I want to compensate? Um, you know, how do I want to engage with the market around me? Uh uh, you know, it's et cetera. Um, so uh I think that integrity is a very good thing. Right. Um min minun minak. Right. So uh that's the that's the first thing that I want to do. And then two is invest the time in depth, right? Talking to your investors, not just about the strategy and the nirvana of saying, hey, you know, we're gonna get there. Talk about what happens, you know, what if things go wrong?

unknown 1:31:53

Right?

SPEAKER_03 1:31:54

Because things don't always go the way the the they don't always go as planned. We take a lot of wisdom from Mike Tyson, right? What did he say? Um you can always have a plan until uh until you get punched in the face. Um, so have that conversation early on with your investor and say, hey, if I get a punch in the face, uh what are we gonna do?

SPEAKER_01 1:32:13

Right? Some people worry that that conversation may create confusion, potential perception of lack of conviction, distraction by a plan B when we should be all hands on deck. How do you see it?

SPEAKER_03 1:32:29

Stay true to yourself as a founder, right? I think um I I always and I I advise this to founders, don't when you're having conversations with investors, right, don't mask who you really are.

SPEAKER_04 1:32:42

Right?

SPEAKER_03 1:32:42

Um, because that investor is gonna find out eventually, right? And I think, look, it there's there's a question mark on integrity here, right? If you're going in um in an engagement with an investor and you're pretending to be somebody you're not, right? Okay, fine, you might get a $100,000 check today, or a $2 million check today. What happens in five years when uh when when things get tough and that investor finds out who you are? No, be open, declare. This is who I am, this is how I do business, this is what I believe in. These are my this is my philosophy, right? This is what I will do if I fail, this is what I will do if I success, if I succeed. You know, at the at the Urban Saga, we had a um we had a series of of private investors, and and and and in a in a settlement conversation that I was having with uh with with one of them, what I prioritize above and beyond anything else is returning capital to investors. Right. And the settlement was, you know, by order of priority, say, number one, right, we're gonna return, we're gonna, uh, you know, we had payroll liabilities at the time, right? Um, number one is we make payroll liabilities and we make our employees whole because those are the people who worked hard and followed and and and did everything they can. Number two is we return capital to investors. And even if I have to return them over a um a payment plan or whatever it is, but if I can avoid losing other people's money, I hate losing other people's money. To me, it's like the second worst thing after genocide.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:13

But return them from where? Return investment.

SPEAKER_03 1:34:16

From equity. You know, if if I can, you know, if if if from from from equity or cash in a business or whatever it might be. From but from the business itself. Yeah, yeah. Uh now some some. If I have even, by the way, as a founder, right? If if I have some cash, right? Um, you know, and I'm in a position to return to return uh uh money to investors, I would. But why? They invest in the business, not in you personally. The business failed. Yes and no, right? So, and again, this is a bit, this is a bit of a radical view, right? And I'm not saying that every investor, that every founder should, right? Um, but it you know, here you know, one of the reasons why I'm very, very glad we we did what we did at the time is your your most valuable asset is your reputation, right? And being in a position as a founder that can look the world in the eye and say, I have not lost other people's money, is very powerful. Because now you're gonna go back to them four or five years later and say, hey, I'm starting something, are you in? And you know, think about it. If an investor says, this is a guy who returned my money when they lost money, right? What are they gonna do to me when they make money? Right? But again, I can be quite radical sometimes. And I'm not suggesting that it happens all the time.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:40

But if possible, why not? Now, sometimes the situation founders find themselves in is let's say they've raised a couple of million dollars, they've burned through a million and a half out of that, they have 500k left. It's not enough to really execute on the plan. And they have two options. Either they return that half a million and call it a day. For the investors, it's gonna be a failure anyway. You're getting 25% of your money back. Some of these funds would not be able even to redeploy the money because of their limitations. So at the end, it's a write-off pretty much anyway. Uh or you can take that 500k and make a low probability, but kind of a last bet, and maybe you make it, but more likely you will burn the 500k as you burned the previous one and a half. What do you do? Good money after bad money? Look, I would say it's low, it's it's money that has a very low probability of success. But if it succeeds, it turns a ship as opposed to returning money that kind of really doesn't do anything for anyone.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:44

What I would do, take a step back, right? Call my board, right, and my investors. Um most important thing is be as transparent as it gets. If it is a high probability of failure, frame it as a high probability of failure. Um, don't convolute it and you know, hide it under facts and you know put together fancy PowerPoint presentations. Declare, be transparent, be honest, be open. And then if you're honest and open and you declared it with that level of integrity, then it doesn't matter. Full disclosure always helps. 100% of the times. If you're honest, and then remind them, sending it, send it in writing after the board meeting, just so nobody can say, you know, one day you told me this and you did that. No. Just be transparent, be honest. You'd be shocked how look, people sometimes um uh and I know we have a mutual friend who always uh who always uh um uh or let's say sometimes undermines the VC community. Um there are some really good quality investors in this part of the world, right? There there are quite a few um investors who call themselves investors, um, but then there's also a few quality human beings in this business, right? And they've learned a great deal over the past 10-15 years. You know, I mean look, venture is what, 10-15 years old in this part of the world? That's not we don't have that much depth. The whole venture industry, right, is what less than 50 years old? When did so when was Sequoia born? Yeah, probably less than that, yeah. Yeah, less than 50 years ago. Yeah. So um, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:38

Ahmad, uh, three people who have listened to our podcast uh today, let's say, one person who I'll take you to the very beginning where we started, looking at Syria, very optimistic, very ambitious, wants to get involved in a way that's compliant with US uh situation on Syria, the UE, the rest of the GCC. What's the best compliant, clear, transparent, kind of bulletproof way to get involved in the ecosystem without taking any risk in what some people may still describe as not a hundred percent clear situation?

SPEAKER_03 1:39:12

Yeah, get in touch with us at uh at at Sync. And we work directly with the US Chamber of Commerce, right? Um to, you know, and um uh you know, we work with the with the US Chamber of Commerce. We have a team in the US. Sync, by the way, is now becoming uh or has become a global organization. So we have a dedicated team in the US, um, um, as well as um uh the ministry them itself. So, you know, and we're talking about the tech space, right? Um we have a remarkable human being, probably one of the probably the most exceptional human being I have ever known in my life, um, who is uh uh our current minister of telecommunications. He's got an incredibly deep network, global network, um, um, and has set up systems and processes to manage that very concern, um, uh, you know, with the Department of Treasury in the US, um, uh, as well as uh uh uh you know OFAC, uh US Chamber, um, et cetera, et cetera. And we'll will guide you through, I mean, get in touch with me personally, and I'll put you on track to to guide you to do business with uh with Syria. Absolutely, we want it we want people to do business legally.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:32

Uh second is someone who wants to take the first step towards owning their dream home in the UE or elsewhere.

SPEAKER_03 1:40:39

MortgageFinder.ae.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:42

Third is a founder who wants to solve a problem in the prop tech space. You focus so much and Abdullah has focused the same on his episode, it has to start with a real problem. What are some of the ways someone can unearth some of these real problems in the prop tech space in the region? What other countries other than the UE as well you think people can solve in?

SPEAKER_03 1:41:08

At the intersection of PropTech and FinTech. I think that's where the biggest opportunities are. Thank you so much, Yusuf. Thank you for having me. Thank you. Thank you.