The SME Paradox No One Is Fixing! | The Mal Show (Podcast) with Dr. Vishnu Katara

In this episode of The MAL Show, we sit down with Dr. Vishnu Katara — GM of SMEs at MAL, investor, operator, and former finance leader at companies like Flipkart, Noon, and Ola — to explore how AI, ethical finance, and SME banking could completely reshape the future of business.

We discuss why traditional banks continue to fail SMEs, why 90% of the economy is powered by small businesses while only a tiny percentage gets funded, and how AI-native banking could change underwriting, collections, payroll, and business operations forever.

Dr. Vishnu also explains how companies like Flipkart, Noon, and Ola competed against Western giants like Amazon and Uber — and won through local understanding, speed, and entrepreneurial culture.

The conversation also dives into:

The transformation of the UAE into a global business hub
Ethical and Sharia-compliant finance
AI agents replacing entire business functions
What founders actually need to raise capital
Angel investing and startup evaluation
Why learning and curiosity matter more than ever in the AI era
The mindset shift from employee to entrepreneur

This is a deep conversation about the future of finance, startups, technology, and building meaningful businesses in the Middle East and beyond.

Don’t forget to subscribe for more conversations on business, finance, technology, and culture.

Chapters:
0:00 Intro
1:56 From Heavy Industry to Startups
5:05 Being Entrepreneurial Inside a Corporate
6:19 The Non-Unicorn to Unicorn Secret
8:06 Competing With Western Giants
11:22 Why the Middle East?
13:26 UAE as a Global Business Hub
15:38 From CFO to Running a Business Segment
17:23 The SME Funding Gap
18:26 Why Banks Fail SMEs
20:08 MAL's AI-Native Banking Vision
26:17 AI Agents Working for Your Business
29:44 Competing With Traditional Banks
36:48 Sharia Compliance & Ethical Finance
44:23 MAL's Hiring & AI-Driven Recruitment
49:51 The Obsession With Learning
53:49 Angel Investing: How to Start
1:06:36 Finance Career Advice: From CFO to CEO
1:17:42 Advice for Founders Raising Capital

To get in touch with us: 
podcast@mal.ai

Follow us on Social Media:
https://www.instagram.com/themal.show/
https://www.tiktok.com/@themalshow.podcast
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61566478614883

To get in touch with Yousef Salem
https://www.linkedin.com/in/youssefsamysalem/?skipRedirect=true
https://www.instagram.com/youssefsamysalem?hl=en

To get in touch with Dr. Vishnu Katara
https://ae.linkedin.com/in/vishnukatara

#TheMALShow #AI #SMEs #Startup #Fintech #IslamicFinance #UAE #Entrepreneurship #Business #ArtificialIntelligence #MiddleEast #MAL

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

For the first time in the humankind, the intelligence is also scalable. And when the intelligence is scalable and it can be supported by the technology, you can solve multiple problems.

SPEAKER_02 0:12

In this episode of the Mal Show, I sit down with Dr. Vishnu Katar, GM of SMEs at Mal, and investor, operator, and former finance leader at companies like Noon, Flipkart, and Olaf.

SPEAKER_00 0:25

The biggest problem at the moment, if you look at 90% of the economies being run by the SMEs, 70% of them has been like jobs being created by the SMEs. But the funding? Hardly. Three, four, five percent.

SPEAKER_02 0:38

So you said I cannot charge interest, but I can charge fees. Now some of this people look at this and say, just play on words. At the end, the economic outcome is the same. I was gonna pay 10% interest. Now I'm paying you a 10% fee. What difference does it make?

SPEAKER_00 0:53

The banking evolved into a risk management. It was supposed to solve the business needs. But over the period of time, that risk management, hard-coded with like a 20-year-old roles or workflows, has become so much of a frictionful that if I don't understand particular business, I will not fund it.

SPEAKER_02 1:13

And effectively then I will have a team of AI agents working for me through the app. So I will have a collections agent that is able to follow up with my clients and get the money. I have a papers agent that's able to pay my suppliers, I will have a payroll agent that's able to pay my people. And I almost have like a treasury agent that will tell me this is the opportunities, that's how you can effectively borrow, or that's how you can effectively unlock additional business.

SPEAKER_00 1:36

If last year number you look at it, roughly around 9,000 plus millionaires move in this country. Multiple giants moved their headquarters here. Many were planning basically, and many are planning at the moment. This is what at one point in time was a trading hub, is being converted into a headquarter kind of hub.

SPEAKER_02 1:56

Asalaamu Alaikum and welcome to the Mal Show. Small and medium enterprises are the backbone of every economy. Yet most banks still don't know how to truly serve them. From lending and global business banking to financial infrastructure and AI native systems, the future of finance may look very different from the traditional banking model we know today. At the same time, regions like the Middle East are transforming from being seen as topovers into real global hubs for business, talent, and innovation. In this episode of the MAL Show, I sit down with Dr. Vishnu Katara, GM of SMEs at Mal, and investor, operator, and former finance leader at companies like Noon, Flipkart, and Ola to discuss ethical finance, SMEs, Agentic AI, and what founders actually need to understand to raise capital and build companies that investors truly believe in. We also talk about building meaningful businesses, long-term thinking, and why lasting success is built one steady day at a time. Don't forget to subscribe to get all the latest episodes of the MALL show. Let's begin. Dr. Vishnu, thank you so much for joining us.

SPEAKER_00 3:05

Thank you. Really great.

SPEAKER_02 3:06

Pleasure of mine. So you started in very heavy industries like refining, telecom, etc., doing finance there. Yeah. And then you moved into startups. Yeah. How was that transition?

SPEAKER_00 3:18

Well, I think that's that's amazing, actually. But you look at it, my heart was uh always basically towards a startup. And I'll I'll tell you basically that when I got a chance in one of the Fortune 500 companies who was building the oil and gas refinery project, uh, it was the grassroot and it was supposed to start in 2006. Uh so it was not a corporatist feel, it was more like um the feel of building something. And I was like first eight who was went there, like, you know, and uh uh start basically putting the they wanted to put up a team together, and that is where we wanted to start with. Uh so it was exactly the similar feel of a startup building for about three years till the time refinery got launched. Uh similar story basically goes for uh Infast Telecom company as well. It it was built overnight by three giants of telecom by putting money and towers together, and then the team got pulled in to kind of uh build it into one single company. So it was also basically that uh we were, I still remember, we were operating from one of the shareholder offices uh to make uh you know the Indus Towers to life, and uh it was nothing less than a startup experience. And when the real startup thing, which is uh Flipkart hits me in in 2012, uh the move was very natural. The move was what is next, what is happening across. Internet was getting attraction, and internet-led companies were getting attraction at that one time. So e-commerce was coming to play, and of course, being an early adopter to uh you know the shopping, to e-commerce, I realized this is a company I can I can join in and I can contribute to building something.

SPEAKER_02 5:05

So, what you're saying is if I'm working today inside a corporate, typically what we think about is okay, I want more autonomy, something more entrepreneurial. I kind of leave the corporate and go join a startup or start a startup. What you're also saying is inside the corporate, I can still be almost an entrepreneur in inside. How do I do that? How do I navigate the corporate politics, the dynamics, the big company, and be able to do something entrepreneurial inside?

SPEAKER_00 5:30

Yeah, so see, even big corporates have that uh, you know, very, very clearly that they also want to progress, they also want to build something. And generally they carve out that particular section, which is need to be in a project basis rather than just about like a steady state. I think my advice will be, and my thought is always been on the project side of things rather than kind of a steady state side of things. You will not learn anything. On a project side of things, of course, you can't expect the autonomy of a similar shape and size, which you can enjoy in a startup. Uh, but it is far more better than the steady state of less, more friction, uh, more efforts, more you know, openness to things. Um way better than basically, I think, being the steady state.

SPEAKER_02 6:19

Now you join Flipkart, it's not a unicorn uh yet. And uh with the finance, you take it to that unicorn uh state, and then you keep doing this consistently. So you do this again in uh in noon, you do this again in the Olaf Leet uh side. So what's this non-unicorn unicorn secret?

SPEAKER_00 6:38

No, I think uh nothing uh secret about it. The thing is that, you know, uh A, you have been blessed that you're always being on the side of uh, you know, choosing the right side uh who's actually putting something meaningful into play. And also basically that they were, you know, one interesting thing, Yusuf, is uh they were always basically on the other side of the Western unicorns. So Flipkart was fighting Amazon, Ola was fighting Uber, and Noon again was fighting basically, you know, uh Amazon. So it is that localness, it is that basically the build from here and for the people around you, um, and then taking basically that fight all across, all out, and then win that battle because uh uh Flipkart, Noon, uh, you know, Ola, everybody won that fight. So um it is that you know that that hustle of basically, you know, that efforts which you need to put up over there to scale them in a right manner when the intent is right, when the story is right, when you really care about things, what you are building for, and you are actually solving the problem which is meaningful for the people around or for the target audience, then it is a difference which can be brought to the table. And then basically that impact's been created. And that is what the answer is, what you see today.

SPEAKER_02 8:06

This point about competing with the West and the Western unicorns, you know, we're always worried about how can we compete with these Western giants, with their resources, with their reach, et cetera. But here you are, multiple Indian companies, Ola, Flipkart, et cetera, taking on these global giants, Amazon, uh, et cetera, Uber, and winning. How'd they do it?

SPEAKER_00 8:27

So again, as I said, the thing is basically that that resilience, that zeal, that fight, basically, that understanding of the local culture, understanding of the localness, uh, a resource which you have a limitation. Sometimes limited resources are even more better than basically having uh enormous resources, right? So uh, and also basically that adoptability which has been there, which nimbleness also comes around because you are in the war, you want to win it. And and and you have you're doing it basically for the people you care, for the communities you are doing, for the countries you are doing. So I think that gives you enough firepower in you to uh fighting and win that. And I think uh technologically we are also making quite an advance resource-wise. Even a capital is not that constrained as it was basically earlier in this part of the world. Um so I think you have everything in play right now. It's just basically that the right founders need to come and build it and win it.

SPEAKER_02 9:29

You look at these companies, they've become worth tens of billions of dollars, right? And they live inside this global capitalistic uh machine. Is it truly that these companies are solving for the people, for the nation, for the country, and part of it is that national pride and people that drives them? Or is this more of just a kind of a marketing campaign and a cultural marketing to promote what is otherwise a kind of again a capitalistic uh drive that is very similar to the Western capitalistic drive?

SPEAKER_00 9:59

No, I think uh that's not true. The the thing is that to solve that something in a meaningful way, you need to understand that. You know, you need to understand the problem. And then basically you need to put up a solution to it. And then infrastructure, capital, everything comes to play, right, to support you. But I think that in uh a company, a global company which is operating around 200 countries at the same time, is not going to understand that in the same way, basically, the company which is coming out of one country and then trying to solve that problem. And the you know, the the area, the country can be sizable enough to be solved alone and then basically you know taken out to the world and in a global way. And because it is being created out of that understanding of a community or a country, then it can create and solve wider problems across the globe because you know there are there are a section of people which is actually requiring that solution, which has not been served by the standard methodologies which is being deployed out of uh a global thought process, right? So that doesn't work.

SPEAKER_02 11:04

Now, you are in India solving for these kind of billion and a half uh people, whether you are solving for them for basic services, like effectively providing them refined products and telecom uh signal, or you are solving for them your startup life with effectively fleets and uh and internet. What brings you then to the region uh with uh with Noon to arguably a smaller number of people that you're solving for, uh arguably uh obviously massive Indian uh component, but a more kind of international population. What makes you do that shift?

SPEAKER_00 11:38

No, I think interesting thing. So uh, you know, uh it was the year 2018, I think I was in a conversation at that point in time. Um and 2019 I came to this country. Um, I came for a conversation initially, and that conversation is still going on. It never ended actually, and I don't want to end it, to be very frank, because this region has so much of a potential, so much you know, forward thinking which has been there. And I have personally seen it actually. And I've when I was actually coming here for that conversation initially, I started reading about the region. I started what they're doing, what what they have done. And when you look at from that lenses of about studying that particular region, then you realize that how much progress has been made and how much efforts is being put up basically to make those progresses, right? We have seen time and again basically how this region has evolved from certain things. And in fact, basically UAE has done amazingly well every single time to support the businesses, to grow it globally. And now when I was coming here, I was seeing that particular thing, and that basically made me feel like, you know, there is a if you look at it, basically, there's an internet penetration to the tune of like 99%. There is capital in this part of the world. Per capital significantly high. Uh then what is lacking? It is about a technology intent uh and the right set of founders, which is actually I was seeing in the initial wave that this is happening, uh, started to happen at that point in time. And this is look at now. In five to seven years, we are talking about this region is a startup region. This UAE has a significant number of startups, significant number of like, you know, uh catalysts who are actually helping the startup at the more same point in time.

SPEAKER_02 13:26

What do you attribute the success and progress to? Because capital, a lot of countries have even more capital, oil and gas, a lot of countries have even more natural resources. So what do you attribute this to?

SPEAKER_00 13:37

I think the most single important thing about a leadership, you know, the leadership of countries is very much committed about what they want to achieve for and they deliver on that. If you look at it basically, UAE has significantly moved in terms of startup programs like TIFC, ADGM, AP71. There are many more uh you know startup catalyst hub which has been created, plus the policies to support them, plus regulatory infrastructure. That is all what's happening at the same point in time, and that is being brought by the government. And the impact of that is the biggest of the companies of the world are started moving to headquarters or shifting basically them some to her. The classic example is Binance, Revolute, and the stories continue on that side. But that change has been witnessed by all of us.

SPEAKER_02 14:30

You mentioned before that changed the region from a stopover to a destination. Yeah. How do you see that?

SPEAKER_00 14:37

No, um, I don't see it. I believe in that because I have seen it, you know, if last year number you look at it, roughly around 9,000 plus millionaires move in this country. Multiple giants moved their headquarters here. Many were planning basically, and many are planning at the moment. So this is what at one point in time was a trading hub, is being converted into a headquarter kind of a hub going forward, which can serve uh, you know, not only to Middle East, but also to Africa, to Asia, to Western world. Everything you can you can serve by sitting here. That's a beautiful place to be in. And and that is what's happening at the same time.

SPEAKER_02 15:21

Now, you've done extremely well on the finance side as a CFO, etc. Three companies from non-unicorn to unicorn. Uh you've had some kind of growth roles as well, but your roles have been predominantly on the pure finance, CFO side. You've now taken recently a new role with Mal, where you're not on the kind of CFO internal finance side, you're now running a business segment, which is the SME's uh segment for uh for Mal. We'll get into Mal in more details, but first, why would you make this move? You're being very successful at CFO, you have a proven track record, you're known to come in and take companies to the next level as the internal finance. Why do you take the risk of changing and now going running a business segment, which is different? Because finance is about infrastructure, governance, fundraising, uh, value creation. Running a business is about owning its P ⁇ L, it's about owning its team, its targets. Why would you make such a transition?

SPEAKER_00 16:15

Yeah, so interesting question. But uh look at this in the lenses. Like, you know, we being as CFOs are being trained to, you know, understand the finances in a much better way than anybody else, right? We understand the balance sheet like in and out. Um but at a massive level, you can't create the impact. You can create the impact to that particular company, and then you can create the associated, basically whatever businesses are running, a limited impact to them, right? So ultimately you will be mostly doing that for the set single company. But if you want to replicate that financial ecosystem or financial acumen to a multiple companies and an ecosystem where you can create the wider impact and really, really solve the problem on the other side of the table, then what will you do? You will actually do something which is touching the millions of lives in terms of businesses and then try to solve a problem for them. And that is what I feel like, you know, I've been given a chance. And sometimes it is like, you know, it's a it's a calling that, you know, why don't you solve for the wider impact than basically about a one single uh giant company.

SPEAKER_02 17:23

And what is the problem you're trying to solve?

SPEAKER_00 17:25

So the biggest problem, you know, is at the moment, if you look at 90% of the economies being run by the SMEs in some form or shape. 70% of them is being like jobs being created by the SMEs. But the funding? Hardly. Three, four, five percent is not more than that. Even basically here, 70% of their applications are being rejected up front for the SMEs. Now, the the businesses which are fueling the economy, which is a growth engine or economic engine, itself is not financed by the economy itself. You know, it's it's a paradox. It's that, you know, uh someone who's contributing significantly to the entire economy is itself is starving for this economic fuel. Um and and partly it is basically that you don't nobody is trying to solve in that particular way. It should be by understanding through data, by understanding and becoming more intelligent, and then going deep down and solving that particular problem.

SPEAKER_02 18:26

Why is it so underserved?

SPEAKER_00 18:28

So the interesting thing is basically that you know the banking was supposed to solve that particular piece. You know. Uh but if you look at it in last, you know, you can take the decade or you can take basically even a century. The banking evolved into a risk management engine rather than basically kind of a, you know, it was it was it was supposed to solve the business needs. It was created to solve basically the business needs, you know, and and then basically a firm movement around that. Of course, with in a regulated way that there should not be any any you know wrongdoing should happen. But over the period of time, that risk management, hard-coded with like a 20-year-old roles or workflows, has become so much of frictionful that if I don't understand particular business, I will not fund it. I will not take the pain, I will not band it. I will create my own products based on my risk understanding, and then you have to adopt to it. Probably I will not, you know. So over the period of time, if you look at it, uh I created something, you need to adopt to it. It is never other way around, right? Ideally, it should be that you are the one who requires support. You are the one who has real need. And I should be understanding that, and then I will be designing myself according to you. But that is somewhere lost, I guess. Uh it is that you know you you play by mal rules or you I don't play. So that's where mal comes in. That's exactly where mal comes in. Where we believe that, you know, uh from a first principle basis, if we have to uh you know solve something, uh how we will solve it. A technology has moved. And for the first time in the humankind, the intelligence is also scalable. You know. And when the intelligence is scalable and it can be supported by the technology, you can solve multiple problems if you have the right set of data. Now, there is a bank or there is a financial partner which can actually think and become your partner rather than like a reactive need-based informative partner. You know, I can download the statement, feed it into someone else, then my accountant is going to tell me something around it. What should be done, what not should be done. Like my financial partner, my fintech partner, my bank can do it. You know, it can tell me right away.

SPEAKER_02 21:07

What do you mean by intelligence has become scalable?

SPEAKER_00 21:10

Look at the AI now. First time there is an independent thought process which is coming in, you know. And that thought process and the thinking ability to basically do things at your own and can take the decision based on the data and certain rules, is far more available now and becoming more and more basically, you know, uh sharp, uh which was not the case if you look at basically about like two years ago.

SPEAKER_02 21:40

And how does this help me? Because ineffectively, the the man announcement, there was a lot of focus on this being the first AI native uh uh Sharia compliant uh FinTech. Now, I'm a user, I want to download an app that get the highest rate on my savings, get the highest cash back or Miles or hotel points on my spend, get the maximum credit card limit, get the lowest cost on my borrowing. How does all of this, like next level of intelligence, AI native, how does it really help me as a user?

SPEAKER_00 22:14

Yeah, so uh look at from the business lenses, right? So I will I will keep it basically on a business side of things at this point in time. If I'm a business and if I have all the data available being a FinTech partner, um now I can understand your cycles, you know, when you actually need money, when you actually make the payment, when you actually receive the payment. For example, I'll take the example, you know, the intelligent data system, what that will do. Uh in the e-commerce, the 50% of the sale generally happens in a Q4, you know, as compared to the rest of the year. You know? Um now the maximum need of the capital will be prior to that particular period, right? If I understand that cycle, and that that point in cycle basically that how you are making a sale, how much you are making the sale at that point in time, what is your profitability coming out? Because buy and sell is happening through me only, right? So via basically as a financial data point, then I can upfront tell you you will be requiring that much of a capital one point in time, and I can fund that you. And probably you can take this much of a you know uh margin on it. So if I am uh able to basically give that kind of a data point and support to you, right basically from my intelligence and do that underwriting on the go rather than waiting and doing it manually where you are applying, I am doing the underwriting, taking like 10 documents from you and then basically giving you, instead of basically proactive that, hey, this kind of a limit can be unlocked by you. Of course, you need to sign certain papers. I need to be transparent, I need to be ethical about it, but here it is what's available to you based on your data, and and you can avail it.

SPEAKER_02 24:04

Now, as an SME, this sounds very interesting to me, right? I will have faster underwriting, which means faster access to capital, and based on your insights at the right time for you to for me to be able to scale the business. Now, how does the process actually work? Like if I'm today an SME, now you are still pre-launch, but effectively, once you launch, what does this process look like for me as an SME? How do I avail this great fast underwriting?

SPEAKER_00 24:30

Yeah, so the thing is that, you know, first of all, basically sign up. Link me to the platforms where the data or where basically, you know, this kind of a thing, history or you know, the data availability can be available to. Um and then basically it has been leave that to us basically by through an application. But the idea is that how over the period of time, of course, whatever I said is going to take a little more time for us to reach to that stage, but eventually that's a vision we want to reach to. Um that once you sign up and you start transacting through me, then rest is on us. We will give you the right set of advice at the right point in time every single time when you need it, even before you think about it. Because that intelligence we want to bring inbuilt into it. Where we can become your uh a payroll employee, we become your financing partner, we become your, you know, a payment partner, we become basically your collection partner. And everything happening like on the go, right, where you are saying, oh, there is one collection employee working for me, an agent is working for me, there is one payment guy working for me who's actually making my supplier payment when it is due, and there is one guy who's actually making a payroll for me. And okay, there is some kind of a credit gap coming in between. Can I also get that? Of course you can. We'll fund that as well.

SPEAKER_02 25:59

So as an SME, I will ultimately at some point download the Mal app and then effectively not at some point, basically, I think at the start.

SPEAKER_00 26:07

At the start? Download basically as quick as uh it is available.

SPEAKER_02 26:11

And effectively then I will have a team of AI agents working for me effectively through the app. So I will have a collections agent that is able to follow up with my clients and get the money. I have a pay business agent that's able to pay my suppliers, I will have a payroll agent that's able to pay my people. And I almost have like a treasury agent that will tell me this is the opportunities I can unlock on the financing. Either that's excess cash, that's what you can do with it, or that's a shortfall, that's how you can effectively uh borrow, or that's how you can effectively unlock additional business.

SPEAKER_00 26:42

Yeah, that is what basically the ultimate goal is. Of course, things are going to take time. It's a build, it's a phase, it is it is not basically like at the start, a lot of those things might not be available because uh these are these are the ultimate goals where we want to reach it. And that is what basically we are trying to build for.

SPEAKER_02 27:00

Very interesting. You call that global business banking. What does that really mean? SMEs, we understand. I'm an SME, I'm coming to what does it mean that I'm exposed to global business banking?

SPEAKER_00 27:10

So the it's being SME is not just about a local, right? Being SME is like basically, you know, you are you're exporting somewhere or you are importing from somewhere to, right? Or you are giving services to outside, you're receiving services from outside. Now, it's not just about that I'm giving you one part of one segment of the service in one country. Idea is basically to give you a service in multiple countries. And basically being giving you globally to collect something or basically pay something. So, uh, or spend something, right? So the thing is that we are trying to bring that in a way, in a multiple jurisdictional licensing authority wise, that how we can enable that service to you, which can support you globally rather than just about one country, one place.

SPEAKER_02 27:54

Now you mentioned there are global players like Kurverut that have come into the region and set up here. So, how would you differentiate from a global network versus some of these players who are inherently global?

SPEAKER_00 28:07

I I think the beauty of it is basically, you know, and uh that we are from here and they come here, I think that itself is giving advantages. Of course, they are global, we are building from here, but that's where the fight is. And more than a fight, I think it's a it's a problem solve. The problem is so big that everybody can try to solve it and everybody can win it, right? And it's it's basically, I think it is even good when basically these kind of players are there in the region. It accelerates us, it helps us basically in multiple level, in an infrastructure level, in thought process, everything that these kind of players are also trying to operate from here, and we are built from, we are building from here. So we can be global, we can go and we can apply the playbook which we are going to deploy into multiple regions, but very local-ness, very problem-first approach, rather than like kind of a one thing fits all, or basically a general uh, you know, as a solve. But like giving that particular thing brick by brick to everyone.

SPEAKER_02 29:11

Now, another part of that fight is the local banks uh or the banks in general, right? Ultimately, as you said, this is a huge business. Maybe historically they haven't necessarily been serving it, but once someone else starts serving it and they see how big the opportunity is, they obviously get very interested. And we've seen efforts from different banks here in the region either to set up their own digital subsidiaries, either to go and do joint ventures with telecom companies and others and set up uh digital banks, either to go partner with some of the private sector players and give them their kind of infrastructure to establish, et cetera. So, how would you position against these giants, which obviously have access to deposits, which have an extremely low cost of funding that they're using to lend? I'm not sure what your level of access to deposits will be given, the regulatory landscape, et cetera. How would you compete with such a massive advantage for the banks?

SPEAKER_00 30:01

So uh think in the other perspective, right? So I'm coming from a technology perspective. I'm I'm here basically, I'm building right away. These are institutions who were built basically a decade ago. They have their own set of technology, they have their own set of uh, you know, uh, you know, overhang basically of a lot more many processes, frictions which is being built inside the risk frameworks. Um if you look at it, basically, most of them are running even a credit approvals in like some are running about like six months, some are running what a three months, or some are running around weeks. Nobody is running basically in like almost like instant, right? Uh and when you take that much of a time, there is a cost involved because some team is doing that work, right? And that is where the SME faces another challenge because the scalability is not there. The scalability of the credit team is not there to match the number of SMEs. This country alone has 6,000 SMEs, 600,000 SMEs, right? Uh you can't underwrite every one of them manually. And which is the problem. And that is also the cost. But if you can solve that basically through a agent tech, if you can solve it through uh auto-credit underwriting, you solve for the cost, you solve for the speed, and you unlock the market, which even these institutions cannot go behind because they're not designed to that. Ultimately, in in name of digitization, uh the workflows are getting disciples. Nobody is creating that intelligent banking. It's all about that intelligent, native, AI-native banking which is being created, right? Which can think, which can act, and then basically reduce the cost in all ways. And of course, basically, you know, uh the capital is access, uh accessible, basically. That's not a problem. But the very basic infrastructure which needs to be solved is there. If you sort from that table, I will be able to serve those SMEs at a much lesser cost as compared to my counterparties going to be.

SPEAKER_02 32:13

Now, you talked about 600,000 SMEs just in the in the UE. And SMEs is a kind of a catch-all phrase that combines so many different sides under it. In our last episode, we had Omar Liauer, who's a uh partner in private credit, and he explained you have a lot of different things. So you have venture debt for uh for startups, you have growth debt for growth scale-up companies, you have uh private debt maybe for companies which are more uh cash flow uh positive. Where does Mal play within that kind of 600,000 SMEs? What is your ideal customer profile? Who is the persona of the SME listening to us that sees kind of Mal as a perfect lending partner or a perfect banking partner in general?

SPEAKER_00 32:56

So uh any basically SME, which is you know up to say about 100 employees, is going to be the primary target. Of course, we are not limited to it. Uh we are open even beyond to it, but we are trying to solve that particular problem where it is the most severe problem today, uh, in terms of accessing the banking facilities or even a banking in general. Uh that is where we are trying to solve that. Can you prov can we provide that kind of a you know uh a business account to you in terms of global business account or local business account, whatever, uh ultimately that banking need which can be provided to you. Uh a credit, which is second, you know, most important thing for a business. Uh because opening an account is just about a beginning. But ultimately the growth comes from the second part of that, which is a fuel. Fuel is basically about a credit. So if we are able to provide that first and second to you, uh, we want you to grow to the next level and don't have a challenge of you know that I don't have enough working capital for me to grow, otherwise I could have been grown. Uh and that is the basic fundamental problem for all the SMEs are facing globally at this point in time, not only the UAE.

SPEAKER_02 34:22

So assuming I'm an SME with up to 100 people, so I can fit within this criteria, how do I become attractive for Mal to become my partner, my creditor, what sort of financial criteria, what infrastructure I should have, how do I look great?

SPEAKER_00 34:36

You know, uh the whole thing is that it's not about how you look at me, you know, and that's where the fundamental point is. It is about how I can become perfect for you. That's the whole thought process we are working, at least with. We are working like how and where we can solve your problem rather than you look at us and then you try to fit in us, right? That's where very basic fundamental thought process actually is being changed and flipped on our side. So my thing is basically if you are if you are in that segment, what can I do to actually uplift you to about 100 to 200 to then 300 employees, or basically your growth cycle? Where I can contribute either in terms of even a uh, you know, as simple as uh financial transaction enablement, a credit card if you need it, and any fungible credit you need it, even why credit card, right? So the credit needs to be seen in an in a in a fungible way because sometimes you need early discounting, sometimes you need overdraft, sometimes you need bullet loan, sometime you need pay by card because that's the only mode available for you. Why I can't give one thing to you, right? You know, it's it's about where I fit in, right? It's not about where you fit in. That's not the idea at all we are working for.

SPEAKER_02 36:01

And the flip side of this, what are some of the red flags or basic mistakes that as an SME I should avoid, whether it's because I want to partner with Matt or from your experience in general, things I should be very cognizant of?

SPEAKER_00 36:14

Yeah, so the thing is basically uh red flags are where you need to be genuine. Uh a transparent, honesty in terms of business, in terms of your numbers, which is coming out. I think that is very, very critical. We are here to support and grow the right set of people. We are not here to support basically a wrong set of people. Right? So if you're right, if your numbers are right, if basically your your intent is right, and if you're if you want to grow your business, my system, my intelligent system should be able to understand that particular fact and support you.

SPEAKER_02 36:48

Now, one of the other key points that Mal stressed in the announcement, in addition to the AI native, is the Sharia compliant part. Yes. Now, why is that important? How does this come into the equation?

SPEAKER_00 37:00

No, I think that is uh look at the root of that. A route is is phenomenally exceptional, you know, on that particular part. What it says, it says about that you need to be transparent. I think we should. You know, if you're solving basically ISME need, you need to be transparent. You should not be charging interest, but nobody is stopping you to charge fee, you know, which you are telling upfront. You need to be ethical. I think that's very important. Uh today some of financial institutions are all about almost about how can I charge you more? How can I compound my interest? How can I basically you know take a majority of the part out of you? Uh on the contrary, I think the Islamic finance says that, you know, it's a community led, it's transparent, it's uh ethical, it is, you know, value-led. Now that particular thing is what we are trying to solve for. We don't charge you something which is should not be charged, or we under the wrap of like hundred terms and conditions put up and flip in something and say basically later on, hey, there's a significant charge coming on you. We don't want to do that. And that is where that that core ethical principle coming from that side of being Sharia compliant and the Islamic finance.

SPEAKER_02 38:18

So you said I cannot charge interest, but I can charge fees. Now, some of this people look at this and say, just play on words. At the end, the economic outcome is the same. I was gonna pay 10% interest, now I'm paying you a 10% fee. What difference does this make?

SPEAKER_00 38:34

No, here basically the thing is that I've after basically telling you that, you know, ultimately how I am partnering in risk, how I am actually after telling you what is the fee to enable that particular thing, right? So the difference is that it's not about you know that this principle is there, and then there is a penalty on the top, then there is a compounding on the top, and then you can't even calculate how much it will turn around basically in a in about like if you miss something. Uh here on the contrary, the thing is that here it is what it is, you are signing up, you are very clear on that. And I don't think so. Any religion for that matter stops for a trade. Everybody wants to enable the trade. Uh trade has to be there, otherwise, you know, that religion would have not been lasted. So the the trade which you want to solve for, that trade also requires money. So somebody has to solve for the money. I think that community-led thought process, or basically a very transparent-led thought process which has been built into it, that particular principles are embedded into it. For us, also, like I think Sharia compliance is a floor and ethics is basically the roof. And we are in the middle, right? So we are we want to be on that particular prism all the time.

SPEAKER_02 39:46

Now, you talk about the penalties. Now, there is a reason that the global financial system has developed penalties because otherwise, how do you create a characteristic approach for someone to pay? So let's say an SME has come in, they've borrowed from you, now there is no penalty because you're being Sharia compliant, they default. What happens next? How do you create the incentive for them to pay?

SPEAKER_00 40:10

Uh, I think penalty is not just about a way to think about it, right? So the right way of thinking about are am I informing you right away that when you miss something, what it will impact you overall? Your credit history, your your basically growth path, your future prospects, how that is going to be impactful by just one event, which you think might just be a one event, but it's a series of data points which you are making the system believe, then the system cannot trust you anymore. And then basically that blockade, which probably could have been a one-minute credit line at one point in time in the future, uh uh, or or basically that time frame which is significantly reduced, will now go from the picture of weeks because somebody has to really understand and see uh, no, you are still right, and it was a genuine case for you. I think if you are informing it in a right shape and form and enforcing it a number of times, you can create a different approach for that guy. And again, I said basically it is for the right guys. Uh we are we are solving it for the right guys. We are solving it basically for right businesses who want to grow, want to propel. But they couldn't because in today's era, nobody understands their business and they want to fund them.

SPEAKER_02 41:29

Now you're saying we are ethics and values led. Now, we talked about the kind of avoiding excessive interest or penalties, etc. We talked about being transparent in the very clear terms and conditions. What are the other key values or ethics that make you say, okay, this is really value or ethics led?

SPEAKER_00 41:50

The the thing is basically that you know uh the core principles which are being there, which is coming from the Sharia, uh, and the section you want to serve for. That particular section in terms of helping them and giving them access to the capital, giving them access of services what they deserve, so that then in future, basically how they can, you know, not only grow, but also basically thrive economically and globally. Um that is what basically the core principle we are working on at the moment.

SPEAKER_02 42:26

Uh you talked about how you operate within the boundaries of Sharia compliance and ethics, and you describe them potentially as a floor and a ceiling. There's always a philosophical debate about religion and ethics. Are they one and the same? Are they different? Is it is it one is a tool for the other? How do you see that relationship within your business?

SPEAKER_00 42:47

Sure. Um, see, of course, there are I'm not a great expert of this, to be very frank. So there are scholars, they are um Sharia Borde. Uh I think before me, Angel was there. She's the one. Um but with the limited knowledge, uh, you know, I would like to say that, you know, uh it's it's the core principles, you know, it's about a transparency. Do you want to be on that side or not? Are you doing that or not? I think that is very important for us. We want to be transparent, that is something which is we choose for. Um are we are we going to be uh outcome-based? Yes, we want to be outcome-based. It's not about you know, that unethical that, you know, no matter what, if you're burning, we are we are still basically safe. And that is where I think the core principle is. The idea is that we will be a partner to your risk as well. You know. Uh but of course we want to be conservative, but not basically that just because we understand we don't understand, we are not going to take that stuff for you, right? We'll leave that on a data. That on our models and then training them models basically so that more and more appetite we can build for you. And then embed in the unit economics. So I keep helping you the more and more you want with lesser of lesser cost on my side without compromising either of basically Sharia principles.

SPEAKER_02 44:19

We did have the privilege of hosting ancient, obviously Abdullah before, I guess it's a it's a dream team all around that mal. And now you are very aggressive on hiring and very transparent as well. I guess you took the transparency you described in as part of your principles and you applied it for hiring. It's very interesting that on your website you have all the positions with the level, a lot of them with the salaries as well as a range of the of the position. So one is that kind of continuation of that transparency culture you're trying to build. And maybe tell us about this culture inside MALT.

SPEAKER_00 44:49

Yeah, sure. So I think uh, you know, Abdullah has very uh, you know, uh clear thing about is of course, one is he's he loves transparency and uh and that is what reflects basically every level and whatever we do. Uh and that is basically the resultant is uh that career portal which is coming out, and we are hiring in significant numbers with very, very transparent thing. In fact, the process is that 80% of the process being completed in the portal and by the AI itself. You don't need people basically to comment on you. That comes on a later path or towards the end of this stage where like you pass that level. That is, if you go over there, there are certain MCQs, you know, with respect to to judge you in terms of or like basically to understand you better, uh, that how you think about things, uh, or that particular role which you are into or your domain. And then followed by assessment which has been built in within that. And then you have to fill that assessment. Uh and the AI rates you basically on that assessment and give that hiring manager clearly that where this guy is sitting, what kind of a, you know, uh, in terms of SM uh MCQs he's doing, or in terms of assessment, what he has done. And then finally we can take the call. And with the AI insights on that, basically, you know, what what is lacking, what is actually a plus spent, what is a significant strength, uh, and whether it is matching with the company's criteria, uh, what we have already been put up, and then taking from there and then talking to the people. So it's been there, it's a very automated process. A, because we are hiding in volumes, B, it is very nice to have that kind of a check-in balance, right? And C, it is enormously transparent that what is happening. You know the assignment, you know basically the MCQs, you know what you have done actually, you know, rather than somebody else's standing to you. So yeah, I think that's that's been there.

SPEAKER_02 46:47

Maybe for the benefit of our audience, this uh portal is careers.mal.ai, if anyone is interested in checking it out. Now, this kind of high reliance on AI for hiring up to 80%, as you mentioned, sometimes the concern is biased because people feel that AI will look for specific keywords, will look for very high-profile universities, very high-profile previous jobs. Someone may lack these terms that the AI will pick up, but they have the right hunger attitude, and they want the human in front of them to be able to demonstrate this appetite and motivation too. And they just feel a frustration that they're speaking to a machine. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:23

No, I think uh that's not correct, uh, Yusuf. The point is basically that there is assignments which you need to be done, right? So, for example, uh structuring of financial products, right? Now we are asking on assessment basically on that particular thing that you know, please provide what is your understanding, what is the unit economics, what is the context, what do you think about it, how the future looks like. If if these kind of a thing and assessment you need to fill in, then it is not about where you're coming from. Uh, then it is about the content you are putting into, you know, and that content is being understood by the AI and being told, no, this is at what level. And then towards the end, basically, there is also a person looking at it, that where it is going, what kind of a thought process is being built. And then you can go about and you know, look at it. Um although uh, you know, we encourage the use of AI. It's not about that. But of course, you need to put up your own thought process to reach to a perfect use of the AI. It's not about the AI will think everything about you. Um, but it's not plain, Vanilla, that you know, your your simple few data points are going to determine how AI is going to behave. It's much more uh, you know, smart.

SPEAKER_02 48:33

Now there's another risk on this that effectively I get the kind of the case study description. I go to my own AI agent to develop it and then put it into your own AI agent to evaluate it and comment on it. Are we getting to a bit of assimilation?

SPEAKER_00 48:47

So the thing is, it's not about that we discourage the use of AI. You can do it very well. And I think many of them are already doing it. It's not about that. It's about that that even to use that, what is coming out of your own thought process? See, AI agents also work when you want to feed them into certain kind of a thing of or your own thought process into it, right? And then it produces the result, which is the best of it. Otherwise, I can ask a simple question, one command, one prompt, and I can get a certain answer. Then another guy can ask properly that prompt, uh, with his thought also being captured into that, and then basically the agent is going to design the similar way. It is about the second thing. It is about that what is your own thought process, which you need to feed in, which you want to create that into a vision, right? Which you want to create that as a proper assessment. So it is about that 100% your own thought process going to be part of that. Writing might have happened by the agent. That's okay. That's absolutely fine.

SPEAKER_02 49:51

Now, in addition to your role with Mal, you're very active on the education uh front. So you went for a PhD, uh, you went to kind of did some courses with Wharton, with INSIAD, etc. What's the obsession with with education?

SPEAKER_00 50:06

So I I love to learn, you know, it is, I believe that, you know, still still I'm the beginner in the education. So you keep learning, and that is what each role, everything you teaches you, each industry teaches you. You know, when I went into mobility, I didn't know about what is mobility. I learned about it, contributed to it. I was there in oil, I guess, nothing known about first job, um, followed by basically infrastellicom. You don't know about it, you have to learn it. Then within that, I got basically a you know uh energy uh head, uh uh head of business unit who needs to control the energy and then prof make the profit out of it. I really need to understand what is cloud, cloud, how it works in a generator and all. So uh that curiosity, I think that learning, you keep learning. Today, basically, we are trying to solve the financing, we are trying to solve the agent tech AI. I think you be a student for your life. I don't think so that you try to become in any other way you can succeed if you're not the student. Approach every single thing you don't know. Start from there, I think you will get the best of the answers.

SPEAKER_02 51:15

But sometimes there's an argument that with AI, a lot of the curriculum of a lot of these learning institutions is a bit outdated and that you may be better off learning on the job or self-learning on AI as opposed until at least kind of the curriculums get updated for all the latest AI methods. How do you see that?

SPEAKER_00 51:33

100%. I'm not denying that particular thing. The only difference is the about a structured and non-structured environment of learning. Uh, there is still a merit in a structured environment learning. So I will not deny and rule out completely, right? There is still a merit, and you should basically follow on that. But uh unstructured learning is becoming more and more important now in the AI era, I believe. You know, and the consumption of knowledge or consumption of information is becoming easier as compared to earlier. It was not, you know, today you are behaving like a superhuman today with the AI, right? I have an AI agent which is a call cloud agent or a terminal downloaded on my laptop, doing a tons of tasks for me, which I couldn't think about doing in a month. I'm doing basically in like a week today. That is all possible with the AI because a lot many information is accessible, which earlier you have to go in a normal search engine, research it, put it into perspective, and then basically you are going to produce something for yourself. Now it is on a command. How smart your command is, how smart your prompt is is going to generate the result for you. That information access is no longer a problem. Use of that information still you need to learn. Still, you need to basically kind of uh become sharp on that. Plus, there is one important thing by learning. You know, it's not about that you you don't, you know, you keep sure, you may uh, you know, you make sure that basically you are also learning out of it, just not basically delegated that learning to the AI itself. I think there's a difference between the two. A lot of people, uh a lot more people what they're doing is they are delegating the learning to the AI. I think that's not right. Consume that information and then basically repurpose it and use it in the right way. I think that is where the thing is, but it's becoming more and more important. And unstructured learning is going to be the future for sure.

SPEAKER_02 53:30

What was the thesis or dissertation of your PhD?

SPEAKER_00 53:34

So uh it was financial technology. It's an honorary degree, it's not basically kind of a full-time PhD. Um, but it's a financial technology is where you need to kind of produce the case studies, what you have done in the uh in that particular segment, and then defend your title.

SPEAKER_02 53:49

Another thing you also spend enough time on is supporting other founders, whether through a couple of angel syndicates you have, IPv and AC, whether through founders OS. Tell us about one, the motivation about that, and two, how do you physically do it?

SPEAKER_00 54:05

I think A, it is about a responsibility. Um when you belong to that ecosystem, you have seen that you know, ecosystems scaled. Um that becomes like kind of a being part of that ecosystem is very important. Um I believe A, giving back that as a knowledge. B how I can support in terms of capital. I myself invested around like 17, 18 companies by now across the globe. Um through us angel networks, as as we saw uh and discussed about. Um so that you know, enabling that via capital, enabling that via knowledge, market access. I think I believe that is very, very important because these founders need that support in an early stage and they can grow big if the ecosystems start coming together and start supporting them. So that is what I feel is a responsibility. I I do it as much as I can, uh, whatever time permits.

SPEAKER_02 55:07

This angel investing, where you invest in 17, 18 companies, um, some people they want to get into this experience, but they're worried because this money ends up being illiquid for a very long uh time. Some people hear that 90% of these companies uh fail. They don't want the 90% probability of losing their money and they don't want their money tied for five, 10 years. So, how how can people approach this angel investing?

SPEAKER_00 55:32

Yeah, so I think angel investing is very different from SIP thought process or mutual fund, or basically for stocks perspective, which is far more liquid, you know, uh far more known that what is going to happen to you. You know, angel investing is higher on risk and higher on reward. You know, when you are investing in 10 companies, consider seven of them is going to definitely die, or eight of them is going to die. But one or two, which are going to do basically significantly good, is going to make much more than what you have already invested in, like all 10 of them. So the maths for all the angel investing is how many more companies you can deploy, right? If you do about a three companies as an angel investing, I don't call it as an angel investing because then you will burn the fingers and you will have a bad taste about it. But if you have done 10 companies, 15 companies, 20 companies, of course, with due diligence, of course, with like your own understanding about the sector, then definitely one or two or three companies out of them are going to be significantly good. Out of 18 companies, I got exit in four companies. Uh, all of them, like one was like capital coming back, but three really did well.

SPEAKER_02 56:46

But how can I do diligence? A lot of these angel investments, like pre-seed, it's a first check. A lot of it is just a pitch deck, maybe a pitch deck with an MVP. There's no financials, there's no track record. How do I do diligence?

SPEAKER_00 56:59

So uh that is where the angel network comes to play, right? So that's a significant problem which has been there. A, of course, in the angel network, I think good 50% criteria goes about the founders, 50 to 60%, that what their pedigree is, what they have done, uh, how much passion you can see in them, what real problem is basically they are trying to solve, whether basically they have a track record of that. The second thing is about uh what problem, what sector they are solving. Is it basically something which is uh can get them somewhere? Is the problem looks real? Is it basically you know uh required a significant amount of capital, which will be difficult to raise at a later point in time, or it's a light model. So these parameters are something which is definitely you can assess as much as possible. But the better way, I believe, is like better to have some kind of an angel network who has the team of analysts who can do some bit of a due diligence on this. And then basically you can take a call on that in terms of your understanding about founders, about business, about idea, the problem statement, and the solution. Uh, that is, I believe, a better way. Otherwise, the first thing is that better you go on the route where you understand better. And if you believe in founders, go for it because the pre-seed is always going to be where the numbers don't exist much.

SPEAKER_02 58:18

Now, these four successful exits you had out of the 18, what was common between them compared to the 14 others, which maybe are too early to tell or outright unsuccessful? What is your learning? Next one you get, what do you say? Okay, no, I'm gonna do this because this is what worked in these four.

SPEAKER_00 58:35

So the thing is that, you know, the common thing, one was the founders. I think great pedigree of the founders were there. There was a hunger, there was there was basically kind of a zeal to solve a real problem. Um, one was into uh green energy, into you know, um EV space. One was into uh monetization of video monetization of our ads, which was there. So the one thing was basically that you know those founders who have the earny want to really solve basically some kind of a problem and they they really solve for it. And then basically, you know, you get the exit of that. Single most important thing go about like founder facility. That is very, very important. Everything else comes later.

SPEAKER_02 59:21

Now, on this kind of resilience of the founder and dedication, etc., one of the things you talked about before is that building takes time, and it's like you have to go like one steady day at a time and uh and kind of get stronger as part of the process. Uh but also going back to where we started, you've had like quick successes in terms of companies like Flipkart, like Ole Fleet, like these are companies that scaled very, very quickly and very rapidly, and that's a big part of that unicorn success. So, how do you balance this kind of needing to create hyper-growth, ultra-growth with this kind of philosophy of gradual building?

SPEAKER_00 59:58

Yeah, so yeah, that's where the you know, the great thing is that uh generally the finance, senior finance folks have been called when the businesses have reached a certain size, you know, even if basically in an early stage of journey, right? And they they had the legacy, legacy of some kind because finance has been like taken a little later, right? You need to have like enough funding, you need to have like enough business to call that kind of expanse or to call basically that kind of uh uh you know resources. Um and when you join in, you realize that there is a legacy which needs to be clean for about a year, which has already been like businesses created for you, and they're growing at a significant pace, or the funding and everything is coming in, and you need to build for this that also at the very same time. So you are into that sandwich situation where the past needs to be clean, the future needs to be built, and you are just there and you need to rush on both sides. And by the way, business is very fast in these companies, so business keep running. They don't stop, they don't want to stop. And you you need to stretch on both sides, you know, to ensure basically that you are deploying those things. So I think it's doubling down on you whenever you join to kind of give that kind of question, right? So in Flipkart, we had like first big billion day uh over there, and it was a one office kind of event. Noon also had the similar story. Um and Ola has like you know number of cars, which is we have to scale for. And you need to deploy the processor, you need to deploy the people, you need to uh, you know, you you really work in a framework. So I I I particularly believe in a framework where like a preventive and you know, reactive. So when you join in, you you are mostly reactive. About 80-90% of the time is about reactive problem solving. Today, this payment is not made, this does not come, this is this is having a problem here. Uh you know, how to basically even you know make a you know anything in finance. There is no answer, for example. Uh so you work 90% of the reactive. But if you don't work on that 10% in a preventive mode, where you're bringing the teams, you're bringing the process, and slowly that 10% becomes the 90%. Gradually. And that gradual is not too gradual, that gradual is basically about three to six months, you know, where you need to scale. And that preventive takes the maximum stake, and the reactive takes the lesser, lesser. The more and more preventive mode you go into, the more and more challenges, the more and more stability, the more and more scalability start coming to the system. And that happened again. That's a similar story in Flipkart, that's a similar story in Ola, a similar story basically in uh Noon. Um so that is a framework you know I particularly follow.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:47

On this point of timing of bringing in finance, what's your recommendation for startups? At which stage do they bring in a financial controller? And at which stage should they bring in a CFO?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:58

I think financial controller should be earlier, way earlier in the journey. When you are probably you are getting your seed round, get some guy, even if not at a financial controller level, at least at a manager level, who can start actually fixing the things, not leaving it too much basically on the you know uh in a in a in a lapses because sometimes that gaps can be very, very significantly problematic at a later stage for you. So don't go and don't fall for it. I think let's bring that thing as soon as basically you are scaling uh to the next milestone, which is either the capital link to or you are going for the next range after the seed. I think bring the financial controller. Uh and there is a there's a significant level of skills within that range, you can bring at least the early ones so that you have some kind of framework built in before you score scale and be ready about it. Uh and as soon as basically you are sizable enough about 100 million, you know, or you are a CDJ, I think get the CFO as quickly as possible.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:01

100 million valuation or 100 million uh the revenue revenue. Clear. A few people who are listening to our episode today, someone who is in a corporate who wants to embark on something more entrepreneurial, whether inside or by making a move to a startup, how would you advise them to build their entrepreneurial skills and to approach such a move?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:24

Yeah, I think uh if if you want to be in a startup, there is nothing called employee mindset. Let's let's first get that out from the window. You know, you can only succeed in a startup by one thought process being entrepreneurial. You need to think about that. How much can I own without any boundary or without any job description? You know, one of the interesting stories being there. I keep telling. Um when I went into Flipkart for an interview, uh I went there and I asked the question, the other than CFO, saying that what is going to be my JD? You know, because I was coming from uh you know Indus corporate job designation. I just asked, what is going to be, what I'm going to do? And and and the gentleman showed me the board uh in the room and he said, This is going to be your JD. And I looked at the board, you know, curiously. And and interestingly, on that board was nothing. It's a blank board. And he said, This is going to be your JD. And that hits me hard. That really hits me. That changed the fundamental thought process of mine. And I really like so much that I decided that this is the time. If I get through, I get through. I'm going to be there because for the first time I've been told there is no JD. The only thing you need to do is the first priority first. Whatever coming in your way on the second day of your job or the first day of your job is going to be your job. That altered me. And I really love that. I love that. Particular moment and I really carry that always with me. And I tell this similar thing during the hiring as well to my people that if you, of course, there is the JD, there is a parameter, there is a role. I'm not denying on that particular thing, but the thought process I'm talking about, that if you carry the boundaries within that, no, this is not mine, that is not, you know, only this much I can do. I don't think so. You will, you will, you are doing a justice to your own growth. Or you will ever be becoming a founder or ever be becoming an entrepreneur by yourself. Because being an entrepreneur, you can do everything. You have to do everything. Otherwise, there's no point.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:35

Now, someone who is in finance, uh, in-house finance, finance and enablement function, as a support, as a center of excellence, wants to move into the business line, to own a business line, own a P ⁇ L, drive a business. What's your advice for them? How to go on about that?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:52

It has been said that nowadays, basically, CFOs are becoming CEOs more often than earlier, right? Earlier that that was, I think, CMOs and that was a thing. But the role of the CFO finance guy itself is changing now. They need to understand numbers way better than earlier. They need to control the PNL way better than earlier. They are the partners now, they are not just basically a silent spectator sort of things. And when you're having that control, it is just that you're advising on the decision, then taking the decision. Keep yourself in that shoes that you need to take the decision and then advise. You're automatically is striving to the next career line, which is a either a CE career line or it is a business head career line or something, because now you're thinking from his head, you're not thinking from your head. And keep, of course, your role is or your your strength is finance, so keep that in line, but keep that thought process basically and then advise.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:55

Someone who owns or manages an SME who wants to improve the financial profile of the SME, get their finances in line, really allow the SME to grow. What's kind of one practical thing uh he or she can do?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:10

Oi, so most of the things basically today, if you look at it, uh I I think especially that's not a problem above, say about a 50 employees plus or like 40 employees plus. But below that, the bigger problem today is, and that's also opportunity in my view, uh is that non-creation of the accounts on a real-time basis, or basically even with a lag. So the accounting takes the lag, and the numbers basically and the PNL and every this thing, which is a financial metric, or which is like financial pictures, take the lag. You don't you don't follow that religiously. I believe that it's very important for all the businesses to go through that financial picture, accounting, whatever form and shape it is, and then start working on that, what is going right, what has been there, at least take that what is a sales number looking like, what is my profitability, what is my expense looking like. At least recording that is the first thing where you start qualifying yourself because then you start caring about the numbers, start caring about data, and then putting that into a perspective which any person can make the meaning of. Tomorrow, yes, we want to solve for it. We we want to, the bank statement is the source truth basically as much as can. We want to solve that for two. That you don't create that, we create for you. Uh but I think it is very important for all the SMEs out there. Don't lead your numbers without basically having that picture in front of you.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:43

Someone who found uh opening that's a good fit on the malcarriers portal before they go ahead with completing the online test and the case study, how best to prepare for to go through that. So to have the maximum outcome when they start filling and answering the questions and preparing the case.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:00

So once you go into that, of course, there is a time window where you need to complete that. Think about a role. Think about, you know, and there is a time period when the assessment is being given. After that, basically roughly around 72 hours are there. My only thing is that give your best. Just don't give a single line of a prompt and basically try to do that case study. I believe do a little more deep thought process. How the future looks like, how basically this particular thing I would try to solve. And then AI is going to significantly enhance it with benchmarking, with data, with basically his own thought process. But the fundamental thought process that what I can do in this is very, very important, right? If, for example, if I'm asking an assignment from someone saying that, you know, what do you think about a credit in future? You know, then somebody can answer the credit is basically, okay, I will do, you know, collateral based, I can do about a data-based. But that's not the answer we are looking for, right? When you want to do it, give me the structure. What is when you say about I will do a data, where the data will come from? Where basically, how will you make the impact out of that data? What are the data points you will look for? How you will integrate basically in a meaningful way. Is there a way basically to enhance data itself? You know, e-invoicing is coming, a lot more software, platforms are there which can be integrated. A lot more future thought process which needs to become to create that ecosystem of understanding which can underwrite the credit, A, in a couple of hours or minutes. B, way more risk-free as compared to basically in a traditional ecosystem it is. I require that particular thing to come out as a deep quality thing, rather than simply saying that, you know, I also understand it is based on data, right? So it's as simple as that, basically. And if you give that prompt, I will come back to you and with good answers. But that doesn't carry you.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:58

So great to hear you're very active on the on the hiring, the portal is up and running, you have that level of transparency. What type of people are you looking for?

SPEAKER_00 1:12:07

See, yeah, so we are not looking uh traditional mindset people, first of all. We are looking basically a people who can think from a first principle, who can and A, who really believe that they can change things. It is not just standard thing replicating. We are not trying to do that. Um I want someone who can actually deep think the problem, number one. Number two, believe that, you know, a collective people, uh, you know, uh people collectively can solve that particular problem. Um and see ready to have that kind of a, you know, ready for that kind of effort. It is going to take a lot more to solve these problems. This is something first of its kind. Um it's a Islamic Fun itself is a seven trillion dollar opportunity, right? So that has been, and there is no single global player till date exist on that. So I think Abdullah has got a really, really big problem to solve, and we are all basically helping him to solve that particular piece. And I I got basically an SME. We want that kind of a warrior who's having that kind of futuristic intelligence thought process which can really solve this problem in a first principle approach. Not basically that we are digitizing the bank and the workflow which existed already.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:28

What does it mean thinking from first principle? You mentioned that twice.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:33

Think about a problem not by researching and looking at the at the things which is currently going on. You can reference them, but you just can't try to improve them. Think from like, you know, okay, if I would like to adopt it, what what I will do differently, right? So how I will think differently. In a credit itself, we are saying why it can be one single product fitting all the needs. You know, why I need credit card, why I need OD, why I need uh supply chain financing, why I need bullet loan, why I need term loan, why I need basically something or complex financing, right? I'm saying you are an SME, right? You night you need a credit, for example, 100,000 drams. That is what you need. You can use whenever you want. You can use basically from a bill discounting point of view, you can use basically sometime I want an early discount, I will only pay 2% out of it, uh, 1% out of it, or basically you want I want a bullet loan because I want to keep by the inventory, put it in Q4 so that I can sell more on the e-commerce platforms. At that point, time my need is just draw down and I'll pay you in like six installments or like five installments. Uh and today basically it is some occasion. I just want basically a day bill early because my payroll is coming. Can I discount that uh and only pay for that much? So the thing is that the need changes. Now your credit cannot be around that these are the products you need only this much, and you can go only and ask this. Uh, and I don't have anything else which is fitting your bill, you need to fit one of them, you know. Now that's where the the I I call it as a first principle because of that. Let's think from that side, you know, and let's build something. We may follow the product, you know, conventional, naming conventional, whatever it is, but it needs to be fungible at one point in time. Um, of course, we need to work a lot on that particular piece in terms of regulators, in teams of um everything. So I think, and everybody is very adaptive, very supportive, and all things. So I think that's not going to be a challenge when we want to solve it. Everybody is going to be supporting. Um, but yeah, I mean it's thinking from an SME angle, and that is what basically I think, you know, and that is what Abdullah also basically thinks that, you know, the the banker probably might not be able to solve that problem. The the people who are sitting on the SME side, or the people who have dealt with the SME side forever in their life, might be able to solve that particular problem better.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:04

Now, that's also an interesting point on the on the banking, right? So we we talked a lot about how the banks are not necessarily solving for the for the SMEs, and there's a clear opportunity there. But even within banking, you're now making another point that even within conventional banking, even for enterprises, there isn't really a global Islamic banking or Sharia compliant champion, even in classic banking, right? So when we think about conventional, immediately big names like JP Morgan, Goldman Sachs, these names immediately come into mind. But on the Islamic banking side, it's more local, it's more regional. Why is that?

SPEAKER_00 1:16:37

So that is where the thing is, that is where the problem statement comes to solve, right? Because nobody was able to scale that from a first principle basis. Everybody was trying to either solve from a conventional thought process, putting the wrapper of the product in the same way what they can give in the conventional, basically through that model as well. So I think nobody was able to actually go beyond that and break that boundaries in terms of like, you know, okay, we can be the global, we can solve it through technology, we can still be very compliant, uh, and we can still solve the problem uh, you know, in a in a in a big way and not just basically in uh one particular segment. I think that thought process doesn't exist today, which is like, I believe, like, you know, which has been we are trying to achieve and solve for.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:30

It's a big thing to solve for.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:32

100%. It is it is very big to solve for. It is it is a very big problem statement to solve for.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:38

Exciting times.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:39

Yeah, of course, it is it is quite exciting.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:42

A founder who wants to raise money from the angel syndicates you're involved with, IPv, AC, etc., how can they uh reach out? How can they apply for funding? Uh, what makes them attractive to these syndicates?

SPEAKER_00 1:17:55

Yeah, so one thing is basically, of course, uh, as I said, founder pedigree is one thing, how strong the founders is. I'll suggest create the partners, which is complementing each other's skill while you want to kind of build some kind of a startup. Second, find the interesting problem and big enough that once it has been solved, it is going to really make a good valuation for everyone. Um see about a clarity of that particular thing into a you know, right from a problem statement to solution and the capital needed. Because most of the time it happens is you want to raise the capital, you don't know what for. So that use of fund is very important that you tell, but not just for telling. You you should have kind of a blueprint in your mind that, you know, particularly if I'm raising a $1 million, what it is for. Uh, does 200 go in the marketing? And if it goes in the marketing, like what is the purpose for it? What are you trying to achieve out of it? At least that kind of blueprint should be there in your mind. And if that clarity is being there, then definitely like everybody is there to help you out, you know. Um, and in fact, you can approach basically like there is IAC Ventures, there is um IPv as well, uh, founders whereas. So you can reach out to these kind of uh, you know, uh networks and you can actually try to seek advice also in terms of like how can we build around it.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:16

Is that an online application on their websites or how do founders do that?

SPEAKER_00 1:19:20

There is a there is a contact us page, I guess, in most of them, which has been there. Uh you can you can reach out through that particular thing. There is also basically an application where which mails are defined over there. You can put up over there and send your application out there. There will be a team which can pick it out.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:36

And finally, someone who wants to join as an angel investor to start to get exposure, uh maybe investing, but also being part of the network, learning about angel investing, being part of that. How do they do that?

SPEAKER_00 1:19:49

So uh they can they can connect with these networks and then basically talk to them. Uh, everybody is quite receptive. Basically, in in Dubai, also there is a enough network which has been available. Uh, out of them, there is a dedicated Spox on that. They can contact, you know. I think you are also very active in this space, either of uh either of us. Uh, and and we can help them out in terms of because joining the angel community is always good, you know, in multiple ways. You are contributing back to the society in form of your knowledge, in form of your network, in form of your capital. Uh, so I believe it is A, very good for the ecosystem, B, it is also rewarding it rightfully done.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:33

Doctor, thank you so much for joining us. This has been super helpful and informative and interesting. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:38

Thank you. Thank you. So it was really, really nice and amazing to talk to you.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:42

Thank you.

unknown 1:20:43

Thank you.