Episode 7: Protecting Potential: A Roundtable Discussion

In the finale of Before They Could Dream, host Abd’Allah welcomes Donnell, Catherine, Eddie, April and James all back for an in-person roundtable discussion. Together, they reflect on the powerful stories shared throughout the series and synthesize the key insights. The conversation focuses on moving forward, exploring tangible solutions and actionable steps to reform the youth justice system and ensure that every young person has the opportunity to realize their full potential.

Themes may include physical, mental, and sexual abuse, along with adult language.

A partnered production of The Aspen Institute Forum for Community Solutions (AIFCS), The Campaign for the Fair Sentencing of Youth (CFSY), Green Buzz Agency and our expert panelists. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

That inner child, let me just continue to fight. My story don't end like this.

SPEAKER_00 0:04

I had to give birth and live pregnancy under gruesome conditions.

SPEAKER_01 0:11

What if it's your child? Let society say that question. What if it was your child?

SPEAKER_06 0:16

You can't leave out the economic motive behind the whole prison industrial complex.

SPEAKER_04 0:22

You have people in state that treat dogs better than they treat humans.

SPEAKER_05 0:27

I'm trying to get a different perspective because this shit don't make sense. Hello and welcome, beautiful people. This is our final episode of Before They Could Dream. I'm your host, Abdullah Atif. And I'm excited to bring this final episode to you on YouTube. Today you get to see the faces behind the voices and stories you've heard throughout our series. And we are joined in person today by my friends, my colleagues, my brothers and sisters. Catherine Jones, who was 13 at the time of her arrest, when she was sentenced to 31 years and served 17. We have Eddie Ellis, who was 16 at the time of his arrest. He was sentenced to 22 years, he served 15. We have Donnell Drinks, 17 years old at the time of his arrest. He was initially sentenced to the death penalty. He was resentenced to life and served 28 and a half years. April Barber Skills, 15 years at the time of her arrest, she was sentenced to two consecutive life sentences, and she served 31 and a half years. And then there is James Carpenter. James was 17 at the time of his arrest. He was sentenced to 57 years to life. He served 24 years in prison. So we are excited to be here today to have a roundtable discussion, to expand on the topics from the series and share resources for your engagement and advocacy moving forward. So let's start with some background on the work we all do together with the Incarcerated Children's Advocacy Network, otherwise known as ICANN. So, Eddie and Catherine, can you explain to our listeners what the ICANN Network is?

SPEAKER_04 2:14

To me, ICANN is an extended family. It's a family that I'm honored to be a part of. And it's folks who were sentenced to extreme sentences like life and other de facto sentences as children, as young as 12 years old. And we come together in programmatic ways to support ICANN members and to give them the needed support and community that they need as they come home.

SPEAKER_02 2:36

We are like the living, breathing examples of what it looks like to have the opportunity to come home and be free. We would normally say second chance, but many of the ICAM members didn't have the first chance. We were incarcerated as children, grew up in an environment that was designed to destroy us, yet somehow came home and committed and dedicated to healing the very system that was designed to broke them. It's community healing. It's individual healing that bleeds out into the community and there's now healing the communities around them.

SPEAKER_05 3:06

I don't have to imagine. I know the reality of the traumatic experiences of childhood and being incarcerated in adult systems, but you all talk with such zeal about what this community is for you. And I'm just wondering if um we could just engage on what the healing aspect looks like uh for each of you.

SPEAKER_00 3:28

I'm healing from not being able to be a mother. I went in at uh 15, but I was also pregnant at the time. So I had to give birth and live pregnancy under um harmful, emotional, and often gruesome conditions. So now that I am released, I am able to be a hands-on mother, albeit my child is grown, but I'm able to be very present in his life. And so I'm healing from the gap that I wasn't able to do so.

SPEAKER_05 4:02

Donnell, what are you healing from?

SPEAKER_03 4:05

We are healing from the fear of being optimistic. You know, so often we live in environments that were trauma-filled and created this pessimistic cloud over us constantly. Then we're disappearing into these prisons where it's just the reality of bleakness and and and just the worst conditions. So you no longer look at things and think that they can be better and brighter. And then we get around each other and it's like the sky's the limit. You know, that naivety that we were robbed from as children, that's attached to that optimism that we can accomplish anything. You're no longer afraid to indulge in it because you think it's gonna be snatched away from you.

SPEAKER_05 4:54

The fear of being optimistic, that's that's powerful.

SPEAKER_06 4:58

Like sometimes during that time, I didn't ever think I would ever get out, you know. And um to make it out here and just be able to thrive and be around people with the shared lived experience is is but is healing in itself. Um I can't even really put it into words, it's just like family and and just, you know, when you need it, because everyone just one phone call away, so I I just can't even explain it.

SPEAKER_05 5:27

You are all wonder humans yourselves, um surviving the unthinkable. And Donnell, you mentioned um optimism and just the need to hold on to optimism when we've experienced lives where it's easy to be in a pessimistic space. And it harkens to me um an event that I experienced when I when I went in early on. And I remember being in the wreckyard, not a cloud in the sky. One of those beautiful days that you want to be anywhere but there. There was this one guy, this elderly man off in a corner in a headstand. I've never seen that in my life. And I went to ask him, like, yo, what are you doing? Like, what's happening? Are you alright? And he flipped himself right side up. And he said, the most profound thing that I've heard in the entirety of my life. And he said, I'm trying to get a different perspective because this shit don't make sense. And it was the most profound thing that I heard in my life because it was what I was feeling. What I was witnessing in prison just didn't make sense. No matter how I tried to justify my actions leading me to that space, the pain, the suffering, the trauma that I experienced, that I witnessed in others, the blatant racism, disregard for humanity, all of the things that just didn't make sense. And I know you talked about optimism. What was it in that place that still to this day doesn't make sense? That kept you optimistic?

SPEAKER_03 7:38

As each one of y'all know, it changes over the years. You know, what might get you through the first two years won't be the catalyst for year five, and what five won't be for the first decade. And it constantly changed, especially with death. You know, I gotta get home to my grandmom. Oh, my grandma did, I gotta get home to my mom. Oh, my mom did. Like, it it constantly changed and shifted. What I now know is the resilience of a child. I couldn't articulate it, I didn't know that's what it was. And that inner child let me just continue to fight. No matter how old I got, how gray I got, and it's my story don't end like this. That's arrogance, my story don't end like this. It has to get better. And so that inner child and that resilience is what kept me going. Um, and that was the common thread through all the decades.

SPEAKER_05 8:39

Eddie, how about yourself?

SPEAKER_04 8:41

Well, for me, I remember when I lost my appeal and everything was just gone. Couldn't do anything else. I kept writing to judge, filing a motion for time reduction. And I think the judge got frustrated. And it was like, Mr. Ellis, I told you four times before then you have exhausted all your opportunities to get out. That's that child and me ain't want to listen. Nah, you saying that, but I don't believe it. Something gonna happen. But, you know, when Donnell said that, it really touched something in me because I used to, especially spending that 10 years stretching solitary confinement, you know, we get magazines. I used to cut out scenes in the magazines that remind me of my childhood memories. I remember when I was going fishing, I remember when I was playing football, and these things kept me sane because I knew if I allow the realities of now to sit on me too much, I may not be the same when I come out this sale.

SPEAKER_02 9:48

I wore all the labels that were put on me. I used to see myself on the news all the time, and all you heard was youngest child killer. And then so then you're like a fella inmate. They didn't call us by our names, we were inmate, and then that DC number, and I was MAE 186, and and then it wasn't until my mentors came into my life about five years before my release that I was transformed. And they had a class and they could always put classes up on the board that you can take. But this one said fresh start. And so while I didn't know anything about what life should be, I knew this wasn't it. And so I met them and I went in the class, and for the first time, somebody looked at me and seen me. And they said, Oh, you're the leader. And they started cultivating the gifts, but they asked me a question. They said, Who are you? And I didn't know. And once I discovered who I was, and I read my Bible and it said, you know, you're forgiven, you're loved, all of that guilt, all that stuff that weighed me down and chained me up began to break free, and my faith became my anger. And so I held on to that. So even when life seemed at its worst, I held on to like this verse that says, All things work together for your good.

SPEAKER_05 10:59

Entering into the delight, let's just think about who is that person, what is that community or thing that you spent in community and found joy, happiness, and redemption uh while you were inside.

SPEAKER_06 11:15

My aunt used to write me a lot when I was in uh incarcerated, sent me a lot of great literature that I would have probably never came across, so that was something that kept me going. Uh, she exposed me to so much stuff like Thomas Paine and just different literature. Uh and then the fellowship I had with the guys who I was on the juvenile block with, you know, we um formed bonds back then when all of us were 16 or 17 years old throughout all our incarceration. We just, if one of us was in a hole, we would send the other one money and stuff like that. You know, we would be in different prisons and just looked out for one another. So yeah.

SPEAKER_04 11:50

I first went in and was in the juvenile block. It was a CO lady named Miss Edmonds. We used to call her Miss E. And she was a target mother for a lot of people. You know, real caring person. She just was a correctionalist, always checked on us when she came in. It wasn't just about her doing her count. How you doing? How you feeling? You know, and for a lot of us, I mean, you missing your parents, you know, and she kind of took up some of that space. But I remember um when I went to Lawton, it was an older guy who used to always walk around with seeds and throw seeds. And one day I'm about to track Greg or exercise, and he said, Eddie, know as you grow, plant seeds or throw seeds that's worth growing. I'm like, man, this man crazy. But it wasn't to years that I realized that he was saying, put things out in the world that's worth growing, that can touch other people, that's, you know, worth repeating, and things like that, right? So that was something that really uh made me think more about my life. What do I want to put out into the world? Who do I want to become?

SPEAKER_05 12:54

I know my happiest moment was leaving, walking out of prison, um, as it were. And as we walk out those doors, it makes me think about the things that I thought about then and was what justice looks like and feels like to each of you. And what do we do with children who commit some of the most egregious acts of harm?

SPEAKER_03 13:22

I think when we talk about our children and what justice looked like for them, I think first we as a society have to embrace the issues that led them to that result. And if you take accountability as a society that we hurt and disappointed and let down the most vulnerable population, the way you handle it on the back end would look different. Children deal with poverty, children deal with homelessness, children deal with substance abuse parents, these societies and malnourishment, all the necessities that should be afforded to them, they don't have. And so, in turn, their actions are in result of all the things they already were forced to deal with. So when we start talking about justice on the back end, let's talk about the environments that we have them living in on the front end. And so for me, there is no existing system that can address that until we address the issues that our children face.

SPEAKER_00 14:24

We're in a pre-justice phase. The laws have changed and they recognize that children do not think and behave as adults. And so that's um the reason why a lot of us, all of us, have been released. But that is just a small part of it. What happens before they even get to the point to where they've committed crime? What led up to that? Are they hungry? Are they fending for themselves? So I think we're in like not a justice phase, we're in like a pre-justice kind of phase where we're making a little leeway, but we still have a long way to go.

SPEAKER_06 15:00

I think that justice also on the back end, because all y'all eloquently spoke about the front end, you know, giving support. But if it is someone that does commit a crime and goes to prison, these prisons have to look more in line with modern society. Like, people shouldn't be coming out of there with no tech skills and things of that nature. Like, people need to be able to go inside and address their needs. You know, whatever you know um shortcomings that they have, they need to be able to find a safe space to grow. It really needs to be a modern prison system that, you know, can really affect change in a person's life by some type of metric. Because I know, like when I came to preside, like an eighth-grade education, so I mean, make sure if a person like that, in a similar situation like that, he'd come out with a diploma or value system change. You know, maybe I had like a more materialistic value system, and I didn't really understand the values that I really needed to be in line with society. So just improving a person, having a prison system to be in a line with their you have people in state that treat dogs better than they treat humans.

SPEAKER_04 16:17

What do you mean by that? It's illegal to have dogs in a facility that don't have a working air conditioner. We can go days, weeks, maybe months in prison with no air conditioner or no heating. Right? I love animals. But are we saying that it's okay as a society to make sure that these dogs are treated more humanely than people?

SPEAKER_05 16:47

Well, let's explore that. I think a way a person might think about that is dogs aren't killing people. And if they do, then it's a possibility they'll be put down. So that analogy may be justified in people's mind. That if you commit the ultimate harm, then you need to experience the ultimate penalty. And I'm I'm gonna throw another um wrench in the conversation. I think you arguably could talk about poverty as being a driver of crime, but I don't know that children are in that dire circumstance. Certainly there are some who very well may be um not able to access food and shelter and the things that they need. I look on social media and they seem like they got a lot of money, a lot of jewelry, and it doesn't look like it's poverty that's driving violence that's happening. So what what's going on? And then let's talk about what do you wish you had as an alternative and would that apply to what's happening today?

SPEAKER_04 17:58

I think it's it's a it's a stance that some people take, but they don't really want to stand on it. We're talking about children who created harm, right? And as a country, we've put in protections and protection clause for children to protect children. Children can't work at a certain age, you can't drive, you can't drink, you can't sign contracts. But yet, when a child does something horrible, they're an adult. And it's impossible now to do a magic trick to say because this child committed harm, they're now an adult. No, that's still a child who perpetuated harm first.

SPEAKER_02 18:34

We must see the child first, no matter what, a child, they're still a child. I'm a mother now, so now I know that unconditional love, that there's nothing that my baby could do that would stop me from loving them, that would make me think that they didn't deserve the best that life has to offer. And if we viewed every child like that, every child, now I look at every child like that because what if it's your child?

SPEAKER_01 19:02

Let society say that question. What if it was your child?

SPEAKER_03 19:05

Well, to your point, and I'll jump in one second real quick. You brought up the thing about consistency. We understand that black and brown children aren't given the same value as white children. He was on drugs, he had a mental issue. Same crimes. Black child, you're a monster. You you lose your value. So when we talk about consistency, about if it was your child, let's use consistency of it's a child. Give the same value to all children.

SPEAKER_05 19:37

Yeah, so I'm I'm hearing some, I think, very key and important themes, and we can double back and drill down on some of them. I look at all of you, well-adjusted, well-adapted, brilliant, but I could come away from what I see and what I witness and what I hear from you and say prison worked. It did what it's supposed to do.

SPEAKER_03 20:00

And I would push back and say we sit here in spite of prison.

SPEAKER_04 20:04

Facts.

SPEAKER_03 20:05

In spite of prison. And I'll also add that while we're sitting here, I'll give the analogy of the duck going across the lake. Underneath, I'm kicking like hell every day to hold on. And I think all of us are. That's the thing. We are acclimated and getting back to society and doing things and putting humanity before self, but we kicking like hell because prison scarred us. Prison tore me up.

SPEAKER_05 20:37

Children are committing harm, human beings are committing harm, and there has to be accountability. What accountability is there that is an alternative to prison?

SPEAKER_00 20:49

You have restorative justice. Um, that's dealing with the person who has harmed as well as the person that the harm was caused to. That um is something that can be probably evaluated in most cases. You also have alternatives such as community service. You know, put them in a place to um to give back to the community which they harmed as a whole.

SPEAKER_06 21:20

I think we gotta add to, we can't leave out the economic motive behind the whole prison industrial complex. It's so much criminality, even in the whole process of the prison in our community, school to prison pipelines, all those types of um things that have been coming out over the years. So it's just like this whole thing has to be torn down and and repaired in another way. And I part of coalitions that uh one coalition is like unlocked the box where they want to um end solitary confinement. We just need people like that to just try to reimagine this whole prison complex because it's it's it's It's um it's a capitalistic motive behind it, a lot of it.

SPEAKER_05 22:08

You referenced the prison industrial complex, and I'm wondering if any of your experiences uh or any of you had experiences or knowledge around what it means to create an alternative to incarceration.

SPEAKER_04 22:23

The United States penal system is based around the stock market, really. It's based around money. A lot of people don't want to admit it. But me being sold from DC prisons to Correctional Corporation of America, I was sold. They contracted our bodies from one system to another. Right? I wasn't in that system. I was in the DC system. They sold us off. So the thing about the system, they don't want to make it better. They want to make it the hamster wheel so we can keep going through it, keep going through it. And to reimagine, for me, is this therapeutic places, places where people can grow, can heal, with supportive programs, with mental health programs. United States prisons are becoming new modern-day asylums, right? Where you have people with mental health issues are in prison. You have people with drug issues are in a regular prison. Prisons cannot really support folks like that. So what do they need to be? Somewhere that's therapeutic to help them deal with the issue and not punish them, right? But to help them grow and understand and go through those things y'all talk about through the restorative practice to understand how your actions harm someone, right? And that's what I think is better.

SPEAKER_05 23:46

How are you using your voice in your professional or individual capacities to bring forth this transformative healing justice that doesn't rely on incarceration as a means of punishment for children?

SPEAKER_06 24:03

I'm an executive director of a nonprofit that revolves around advocacy on behalf of those who are incarcerated, and we we just try to lift their voices in rooms that they might not be there. Another one is drive under 25, where we try to also advocate on behalf of the emerging adult population, those from like 18 to 25. Again, trying to affect the laws so it won't be so harsh on them, get them opportunities to get their lives straight, get them opportunities to set aside their convictions so that they won't have to be hampered with a conviction in terms of getting a job and things of that nature. When I was incarcerated, I understood that if I ever got an opportunity to come home, it would be important for me to be a stand-up citizen in society so others can get an opportunity like I got. So that's something I do to try to use my life, you know, to help others.

SPEAKER_03 24:55

What's key for me, I always think my best ability is my availability. And I'm present in my city, I'm always canvassing, I'm always meeting the young people where they're at. You know, a lot of young kids don't show up at a lot of the rec centers for the programming. Those the ones I do want to talk to. You know, and I and I and I use my story, I use my life, I use my credibility to really show them that there's alternative ways to make decisions and just be patient. Um, I started mentoring programs in the school system. I'm available. And the reason I do that is because proximity of success was something that was denied me. And while I humbly know that I'm not as successful as certain people in a lot of professional ways, but in human ways, I'm a success story. And those are the stories that I like to bring to those that are on that fence that need to understand value, need to understand love, need to understand empathy.

SPEAKER_05 25:57

For people who have been listening to the series or watching this particular episode, it's easy to get overwhelmed and to think that the system is just too big and not know what to do. What advice would you have for anyone that's something that we could do to change the system? What is that one thing that we can do?

SPEAKER_00 26:20

Pick a find your local church, find which prison is in your county, because chances are there's one there. And get one of your local churches or several organizations to donate something to just brighten up a day. Like a bar of soap, a card, a candy cane from the outside will really make a difference, and also use that same organization and write someone if they see that one person knows that they exist that can change that person's whole life.

SPEAKER_06 26:52

Get informed, do the research, try to find out what's going on, speak to your local um elected officials and just let your voice be heard and ask questions.

SPEAKER_05 27:02

So, once again, uh certainly appreciate all of those uh reasonable advices on how people can engage. And so as we wrap up this session, it seems important for us to ask of you experts in your own experience in your advocacy efforts. If a lawmaker, policy maker, system stakeholder was listening to this podcast, what is that very one thing that they can do immediately to impact change for the most vulnerable amongst us?

SPEAKER_03 27:44

Know the laws of your own state. You'd be surprised how many uh legislators don't know how they impact children with their own policies. And so obviously, I would say if you're in a state, ban life without the possibility for parole for a child. And then I would tell them, understand that children need to be looked at different. So any law and policy that you lump a child with an adult is wrong.

SPEAKER_02 28:12

Partner with the CFSY and join our advocacy to ban juvenile life without parole, become a partner with us and fight the good fight.

SPEAKER_05 28:25

Thank you again for listening to Before They Could Dream. We are so grateful for every contributor and listener. Together we can re-examine what justice is and help ensure our most vulnerable population, the children of this country, have the chance to really realize their dreams no matter their life circumstances. Let's strive together to create systems of support and early intervention for all of our nation's children. No matter where they live, no matter how they may have misstepped in their youth, all children deserve to be protected, aided in their development, and have a path to grow and realize their full potential. For those of you who have found us on YouTube but haven't listened to the rest of the series, you can access all of our previous podcast episodes and learn more about our mission at BeforeTheyCohdream.org. You can also subscribe and listen to Before They Could Dream wherever you get your podcasts.