"Like having a three-way with yourself" Heather Leroy on making her first feature

Heather LeRoy’s career path doesn’t follow a neat map, and that’s exactly why it’s useful. We sit down as friends and working artists and trace how a kid on a dead-end road in Alabama turns Saturday Night Live obsession into a real creative life: New York acting classes, Emerson film school, Los Angeles stand-up, and eventually a feature film that refuses to play it safe.

We get into the messy, practical reality of independent filmmaking and microbudget features. Heather breaks down what happens when a “$25K movie” meets real life: producers quitting mid-shoot, becoming your own producer by necessity, and the constant pressure of writing, directing, acting, and editing with delayed gratification. We also talk about finding your voice, casting smart, and why the best collaborators are the ones who instantly understand the same weird movie you’re trying to make.

Then we go past the finish line, because the finish line isn’t real. Heather shares what surprised her most about film distribution, deliverables, and the unglamorous costs like errors and omissions insurance. We also hit the bigger question hanging over every set right now: AI and the future of the film industry. Her take is clear and grounded in craft: technology shifts business models, but it can’t replace human flaws, risk, and connection, which is the whole reason movies matter.

If you care about screenwriting, directing actors, DIY filmmaking, mental health storytelling, and getting a film into the world without waiting for permission, this one’s for you. Subscribe for more conversations with working film and TV professionals, share this with a filmmaker friend, and leave a review with the leap you’re taking next.

Transcript

Welcome And Meet Heather LeRoy

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hey everybody, welcome. My name is Nate Kaywood. I'm a Los Angeles-based cinematographer, and this is Film Shit, a podcast where I sit down with a working professional in the TV and film industry and ask them, how do they get to where they are? What exactly is it that they do? And what is the future of the industry? Today I am incredibly excited to have this guest on. Very dear friend of mine, incredibly talented. She is a writer, she is a director, she is an actor, and she's a clown. Welcome, Heather LeRoy. Hello, Heather, how are you?

unknown 0:33

Hi.

SPEAKER_00 0:34

Do you consider yourself a clown now that you're doing clown workshops?

SPEAKER_07 0:37

You know what's funny is I took this clown workshop and I went, oh, this is just how I've been my entire life.

SPEAKER_00 0:44

So you now identify it as a couple of years.

SPEAKER_06 0:45

I've always identified, but not like publicly.

SPEAKER_00 0:49

I mean people who're sorry I just outed you as a clown.

SPEAKER_07 0:52

People who know me are like down to clown. And you're like, obviously. Down to clown. I think I was class clown. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 0:58

Were you voted class clown?

SPEAKER_07 0:59

Yeah, I was also my high school mascot. Okay. What? I was Lily the Wildcat. I was the first female mascot. Okay, dang. In Scottsburgh, Alabama, which was

Alabama Roots And No Arts Scene

SPEAKER_07 1:10

very revolutionary. Yeah, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:11

Okay, actually, let's let's start with that. Okay, how did you get here?

SPEAKER_07 1:14

How did I get?

SPEAKER_00 1:15

Yeah, how did I get it? How did you get to writing, directing, acting, being just an overall creative person? Because you also do photography. There are a lot of layers to Heather LeRoy.

SPEAKER_07 1:25

Um, the short of it is uh I left Alabama with like $2,500 or $3,000 in a makeup bag and I moved to New York City to be an actress.

SPEAKER_00 1:35

So you knew.

SPEAKER_07 1:36

Yeah, yeah. I counted down the days like two years before I graduated high school in Alabama. I was counting days till I could leave Alabama.

SPEAKER_00 1:43

I I understand that. I I have uh great um uh sympathy and empathy toward like I I absolutely understand that feeling. Okay, let's go even a little bit further back. So when you were you're originally from you're born and raised in Alabama.

SPEAKER_07 1:54

I feel like I should be laying on a couch.

SPEAKER_00 1:56

Yeah. Well, no, it's not therapy.

SPEAKER_06 1:57

It's just I gotta go back. I gotta go back. It's an acting exercise. Okay, tell me.

SPEAKER_00 2:02

Okay, so uh you you were born and raised in Alabama, you grew up in Alabama. Did you know anybody in TV and film? What what was the this what was the moment that you were like, I'm meant to be an actor?

SPEAKER_07 2:13

When I was a kid, um, I mean, I spent most of my formative years on a dead-end country road in Alabama, and there was like nothing to do, but I always watch like Saturday Night Live and things like that. And then I would dress up like the characters out on the farm in Alabama, and I would put on my own comedy shows. Yeah, and I would go to people's friends' houses with a bag of costumes, and I would perform for their family.

SPEAKER_00 2:43

Was it well received? Were you? Oh, very much. Oh, they were happy to have me over.

SPEAKER_07 2:47

Yeah, even when I go home and I run into people's parents, they all call me Leroy, and they're like, Oh, Leroy, remember when you'd come over and you'd do your? I'm like, Yeah, too.

SPEAKER_00 2:56

It's the beginnings of a journey.

SPEAKER_07 2:58

The circus starts early, man.

SPEAKER_00 3:00

Yeah, it just starts early. So you knew way early on that you were like, I'm destined to do this.

SPEAKER_07 3:05

Oh, yeah, like all I wanted. But there was no access in Alabama. There's no like real. Um, I had an art teacher who was very nurturing of me, and she was very supportive just in like visual arts, but there was no like performing arts, or I had to drive 40 minutes away to a mountain to be an extra and like inherit the wind. I was a woman with a fan. Wow. The scopes monkey trial. That's like how deep the artistic scene was. And like I was like, I just want to be on, I want to be on a stage. And it's like you could go be an extra in the inherit the wind, the scopes monkey trial.

SPEAKER_00 3:41

And you're like signed.

SPEAKER_07 3:42

And I was like, How's my fan work?

SPEAKER_00 3:44

Yeah, it's like, hey, I can I can do this fan however you want. Um, so wait, so you didn't have like high school plays or anything like that? You guys didn't have any plays.

SPEAKER_07 3:54

We had football.

SPEAKER_00 3:55

Okay, I've heard of it.

SPEAKER_07 3:57

And then I think and I became a mascot, my senior, and I think it's because I was like performing, but there was no like there was no theater.

SPEAKER_00 4:05

Wow, that is really mind-boggling to me because it's like nurturing of the arts.

SPEAKER_07 4:11

So I was really all I ever wanted was I I felt like my freedom was attached to pursuing the arts. Right. And I made a commitment at a very young age to just like commit my life to the pursuit of the arts because it was nowhere around.

SPEAKER_00 4:27

Okay, so by 16 years old, you knew you you were destined for New York City.

SPEAKER_07 4:31

Yeah, basically, so I actually spent one year in South Africa. My dad was working there, so I was in Cape Town, South Africa. Very in the least. Remember from Alabama to South Africa, then back to Alabama. Okay, great. And there that was the only time there was some arts stuff. How old were you when that happened? Um, I was I was I was around that age, like 16. Oh, around 16, okay. And then um, so there was a year there and then I came back to Alabama. But um, yeah, I just always knew I wanted to go to New York. I just knew. I was like, I'm going to New York City. One day I'm going to New York City.

SPEAKER_00 5:07

Can you like, is there a moment that you can pinpoint that that was like just became a reality, or were you just, was it just because of watching SNL and you're like, I know that takes place in New York City?

SPEAKER_07 5:16

I think it was that, and I think it was um, I just to me, New York at the time, because you know, we're we're similar age. Yeah, there was people weren't doing castings on there was people really take it for granted, you know, they get online and they complain about their their self-tapes they have to upload, and but we used to have to move to an actual city.

SPEAKER_01 5:40

Right.

SPEAKER_07 5:40

Yeah. And like hoof it around with a photo, yeah, you know, and go to an in-person class. Used to really have to do that. So I just in my mind it was always New York or LA. And I think New York, I felt like there was something about the theater and the actors I looked up to, they were all New York theater actors.

SPEAKER_00 6:04

Who were they?

SPEAKER_07 6:05

Um, God, I can't remember that far back, but I just I've always I always felt like from a young age, I felt like, oh, in New York, the actors are kind of like this is I mean, I don't know what this is story, but they they felt more like working class actors. And I felt like in my mind in Hollywood, you needed like fake boobs and blonde hair. And so I felt like, oh, maybe that's my vibe.

SPEAKER_00 6:27

Right. Right. But at the time that was that was I mean, that's probably I mean, I think at the time that probably isn't an unfair characterization of like what the industries were were doing, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because it does feel like now that that's actually changed dramatically. Like as far as like now you almost have to be a celebrity to even act in New York. You know what I mean? It's like, oh, if you're not famous, you're not gonna be in a stage player. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 6:50

I just I think being from the one thing about being from where I'm from is there's just there was always like worth work ethic. And in LA it's not, it doesn't seem like it's like the harder you work, it the connections are super important. But in New York, if you're a no one and you're really good, people will give you a chance.

SPEAKER_01 7:08

Right.

SPEAKER_07 7:09

That it and you could be a nobody, you get but if they're like she's busting her ass, she's got talent. I mean, I experienced that when I was doing stand-up there. Like people give you a chance.

New York Leap And Early Hustle

SPEAKER_00 7:20

Right. You know? Okay, so you moved to New York, you're 18 years old, presumably. Okay, and so you just start doing stand-up, or like what's the journey?

SPEAKER_07 7:29

So so when I moved to New York, I bought a ticket, I sold a computer, I got cash for that. And then I just flew to New York and I called a girl from a payphone that I'd been in a play with, like an extra in a play, and I had known her too. Like we'd become friends outside of that, and I was like, Hey, can I come sleep on your floor? She was a student at American Academy of Dramatic Arts on Broadway. And I literally went from I I went and I slept on, like slept on her floor for a while. Yeah. And then I became then I just started working in New York and taking acting classes. My first job, I got robbed on the subway to my first job interview. And I had a southern accent at the time. Like that's how it was in New York City. I was in New York City, like I'm in New York City living my dream.

SPEAKER_01 8:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 8:23

And I'm on the train and I'm going to for a job interview uh to be a temp. I've never had a job. I worked at the Western Sizzelin when I was like 15. Yeah. Because I was trying to make money to escape Alabama, serving macaroni and cheese and chicken fried steak to people I didn't know much. But uh, I was on a train going to this job interview uh for this clothing company called Tahari and Theory. And this really hot guy got on the train behind me. And he was like a Calvin Klein model looking guy in like a trench coat.

SPEAKER_06 8:54

And I was, I was at a backpack and I was like on the train, like, you know, you're bumping on the train. I'm like, oh my god, this man is so good looking behind me. And then I and he had taken my wallet and like everything.

SPEAKER_05 9:08

And so when I got to the job interview, I was like, oh my god, I got robbed on the train. They hired me.

SPEAKER_00 9:15

Hilarious. You should keep that bit for going forward.

SPEAKER_07 9:21

And that set my hero's journey right there. That was the inciting incident, and I'm still, you know, act two problems, but like that really was.

SPEAKER_00 9:30

Yeah. Wow, that is incredible.

SPEAKER_06 9:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:33

Okay, so um, so like so.

SPEAKER_07 9:36

I was in New York, and then I studied acting at uh Straussburg, and then um I ended up I ended up going to film school, ended up going leaving New York after I was there, and then I went to film school at Emerson College because I realized I wanted to learn to direct movies and make my own movies and put myself in movies.

SPEAKER_00 9:59

How long were you in New York before you made that decision?

SPEAKER_07 10:02

I was there for a year.

SPEAKER_00 10:03

Okay, great. So you're like 20, and this is Yeah, yeah, yeah. I took like a year off.

SPEAKER_07 10:07

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so I took uh and then I then you go to Boston. Somehow miracle miracle got into Emerson College.

SPEAKER_00 10:14

That's that's amazing, dude. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_07 10:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:17

This is like I'm so man, I'm so grateful to have you here because like I I really want this. I just want to be talking to people that have like such a varied journey that the world can understand that this is possible. Because I I think like where you're from, where I'm from, it's like if you don't see somebody say it's possible, like how can it be true? Oh, yeah. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_07 10:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:37

So it's like it's like I think it's so powerful to just hear you talk about just being like, yeah, I just got like a ticket.

SPEAKER_07 10:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:44

And then I just showed up. Yeah, and I was like, Well, I guess I'm gonna go to Boston. How long were you in Boston for?

SPEAKER_07 10:49

So I did Emerson in three years because I was like, I just gotta hurry up and get to the real world, which I do regret. I do regret a little. I'm like, some of those people do the six-year college program, and I'm like, why rush it? But that's never been my yeah, you know. I I did, and Emerson was great because you got to do a semester in Amsterdam and you did a semester in LA, and then you kind of and so I did it in three years. I just worked all and took classes all through the summer and then moved to LA after I graduated.

SPEAKER_00 11:21

Okay, so you went to through their film program, and did you emphasize in directing?

SPEAKER_07 11:25

Yeah, I did directing and radio. So I was a blues radio DJ as well.

SPEAKER_00 11:29

Obviously.

Emerson Film School And Moving West

SPEAKER_00 11:30

Um, okay. Actually, so it's all feels a bit like waiting for Guffman. I was like, well, in a previous life before I like I waited for Godot. When I moved to um LA, I came here to work in your recording studio. So I have I actually did music, yeah. Is it like a degree in music? So who did you play a lot of blues artists?

SPEAKER_07 11:51

I used to be obsessed with blues music. And I played a lot of Delta blues, and I had a friend who would jokingly call my show The Suicide Hotline because it was so depressing. But I didn't I mean that's the blues. I didn't find the music depressing at all, but I loved it.

SPEAKER_05 12:08

Yeah, my name was Sweet Potato on WERS 89.9 FM.

SPEAKER_00 12:13

Good heavens. Man, I love this. This is incredible. Uh yeah, dude, I grew up I grew up playing the blues so much. I was like, oh my god, it's my favorite. Yeah, yeah, I think so.

SPEAKER_05 12:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:26

Um, in fact, I actually did a summer guitar camp at Berkeley in Boston, and I majored in electric guitar, blues guitar performance.

SPEAKER_07 12:35

Kindred spirits.

SPEAKER_00 12:36

Boston, baby. Okay, so three years, three years of enjoying Boston, your directing?

SPEAKER_07 12:42

Yeah, so I was in film classes. I mean, look, I was I was a terrible student. I think I'm also proof that you can be a terrible student and um somehow survive. Right. That's what I tell my friends with kids. I'm like, it's okay.

SPEAKER_00 12:56

Yeah, they're bored. They're gonna figure it out. They're bored. Wait, why were you bored at Emerson? It's like supposed to be a great school, right?

SPEAKER_07 13:02

Emerson is a great school. I think just more as a student. I I was never really um a student. I'm very ADD like most people. I think I just I loved uh the filmmaking aspect. I love that. But like actually being on set. The actual student. Well, we would have our own sets and stuff, but I learned a lot, but I think also I just wanted to be in real life. Like I'm someone who likes to do. I don't, I'm not a good sit in the classroom, take the standardized test.

SPEAKER_00 13:33

I get it. Uh there is like a there is like doing arts in in college or whatever. Like I do feel like it is interesting because it's almost like uh like a pay no attention to the man behind the curtain type thing because you're like, yeah, yeah, yeah. This is all really great. When do we do the real stuff? And you're like, Well, you don't get to do the real stuff until you leave here. And you're like, well, that's kind of backwards, right?

SPEAKER_07 13:55

Well, there's some people that I went to college with who were who when they went to Emerson, they had already they'd been making films. I mean, they'd been making films for five years, and I went as like a switch to I want to learn about filmmaking, I want to learn. So I went there not knowing, and there were people who are like, I'm shooting an action movie in this film 101, you know. So, so I think I wish in some ways that I would have been more like soul focused because I've that's just not been my journey and who I am. Like I'm kind of like, oh, I want to do all these things.

SPEAKER_00 14:28

Right. And I I've like as an outside observer of your work, it feels like that shows up in your voice, yeah, which I think is exciting. It's one of the reasons why I think your film is incredible, which we will talk about in a few seconds. Um, but uh uh okay, so Emerson, you've completed, you graduated, you have a degree.

SPEAKER_04 14:46

I I I kudos. I I got a degree. Okay, and then it's incredible. Yeah, dude, it's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 14:51

Every time I'm like I'm baffled that we were any of us were able to do it. Like, oh wow, we were able to pay attention for that long. Great. Um, where did you what happened after Emerson?

SPEAKER_07 15:01

So after Emerson, I moved to LA and I moved to LA, and um, I was like, I'm moving to LA and I I answered a Craigslist ad- of scary, what I thought was a rapper. I thought it was a rapper. Yeah, like it was the way it was written. I don't know. I thought, oh, is this a rapper looking for a roommate? Yeah, like a female rapper. Her name was Root, and it was just, I don't know. I thought Root, a rapper. I don't know what I was thinking. But uh I always down for the adventure. I went to meet her. She lived right across from the Director's Guild building, and she was a 76-year-old ex-Vogue cover model. She was one of the most famous Vogue cover models. She was my first roommate in LA. And above the couch were photos of her shot by, oh my god, what's Darajinski, the famous, the famous fashion photographer. And she would like smoke pot all day, and she would it that was my first roommate.

SPEAKER_00 16:04

Oh my god, make a movie about her. This sounds incredible. I'm stoked. I can't wait to see.

SPEAKER_07 16:10

Yeah, so that was my first roommate.

SPEAKER_00 16:12

That's amazing.

SPEAKER_07 16:13

Yeah, I live with her and this other girl who was working at Miramax at the time.

SPEAKER_00 16:17

And yeah, oh, Miramax, that's an interesting company.

SPEAKER_07 16:20

No troubled history whatsoever movie. So, and so then, but

Stand-Up Comedy Takes Over

SPEAKER_07 16:25

at that time, like I'd been in LA a few months, and then I started doing stand-up.

SPEAKER_00 16:29

Yeah. So you so you didn't do stand-up in New York or Boston.

SPEAKER_07 16:33

I was studying acting, I was studying film.

SPEAKER_00 16:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 16:35

And then I came to LA, and I don't really remember what chain of events happened between there. But then all I know, my the memory that comes up is me at the comedy store sign-up open mic. Right. The potluck.

SPEAKER_00 16:51

Right. And how where did that come from? Was it just part of the comedy?

SPEAKER_07 16:55

Oh, I always wanted to do comedy. Like when I was young doing comedy stuff and bits, I was always a comedian. So I realized I was living that close to the comedy store. You're like, and I went, oh my god, I live down the street. I I should just give it a try.

SPEAKER_00 17:10

Right.

SPEAKER_07 17:10

So why?

SPEAKER_00 17:11

How much of your life did you dedicate to this side quest?

SPEAKER_07 17:15

Well, comedy was my main quest. It was comedy became my main quest for like nine years.

SPEAKER_00 17:20

Right.

SPEAKER_07 17:20

I was that's all I did. Nothing came between me and comedy. Look, I understand. Like, like I was like, when I it was a very I mean, guys, I sent the Dick Fogg music video to a very famous producer. Like it was it was all I wanted to do. I loved it. Um, and I I did it, I did road stuff, and then I went and toured in Ireland, and then when I came back, I was like, oh, I I just want to go do stand-up. And so I moved back to New York for a while. Right just to solely pursue stand-up.

SPEAKER_00 17:52

Okay, so filmmaking was like out of the way I just want to I just wanted to do comedy.

SPEAKER_07 17:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:59

So that was my stand up on stage with a microphone.

SPEAKER_07 18:01

Well, I wanted to do stand-up, I wanted to get really good at the craft of it. Um, and I don't know, I feel like stand-up is a very, especially at the time, I mean, it was before once again, TikTok and it it just felt like a very free it just felt very free. Like it's very freeing and you're in control, it's immediate gratification. Right. You're like, I have an idea, let me go try it out. With filmmaking, you're like, I have an idea.

SPEAKER_00 18:28

Wait five years.

SPEAKER_07 18:30

This woman said something to me that really stuck with me. And uh she was a famous actress who would also become a director, much older than me. I think she may have been in her late 60s, and uh someone introduced me to her when I was directing my movie, yeah, and she said, Oh, you're acting in it too. And I was like, Yeah, I kind of chuck out that way. Like and she said, You know what it feels like to write and direct and star in your own film?

SPEAKER_05 19:01

And I said, What? She's like, it's like you're having a threesome with yourself and no one ever comes.

SPEAKER_00 19:10

Did you find that advice to be true?

unknown 19:15

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 19:16

Incredible.

SPEAKER_07 19:17

I just want to let you know, I just want you to keep that in mind.

SPEAKER_00 19:20

You're like, great, thanks.

SPEAKER_07 19:23

I was like, what is she talking about? Wow. And I think it's like, you know, when you're directing a project that you're like, you're doing all these parts, the delayed gratification is so long.

SPEAKER_02 19:34

Right, of course.

SPEAKER_07 19:35

You know, like when's the movie gonna come out? When's an audience gonna see it? When is anyone gonna see this? Like, when is there any release from this insane amount of pressure to make something good all by myself?

SPEAKER_00 19:45

Okay, let's actually talk about it. Like, like we we've got to go on forever,

Family Crisis Forces A Reset

SPEAKER_00 19:50

yeah, which is great. But I think that's great. Okay, so let's okay, you had you were doing stand-up, and then at a certain point you were compelled to make well, so I was doing stand-up, I moved to New York, and then um my dad got really sick, and he was in Alabama, and I've been gone from Alabama for a very long time, and I'm the only daughter.

SPEAKER_07 20:10

Uh, and I was I was about to go on the road with someone in New York, and my dad was having brain surgery, and I had to go pick him up in Alabama and drive him to a hospital in Texas, and it was just supposed to be like a two-week thing.

SPEAKER_01 20:23

Right.

SPEAKER_07 20:24

And then uh, and then I was gonna go back and go on the road for this comic, and I was like, Oh, I'd become a paid regular at this club I love there, and like I was like, Oh, it's happening.

SPEAKER_05 20:33

I left LA, it's happening.

SPEAKER_07 20:35

And then my dad had complications from a brain surgery and almost died, and he was in this uh neuro ward for like I don't know, six weeks, something like that, almost two months. And during that time, I watched him die like three times and come back to life. And I moved home and yeah, and and it and it really um I and then I moved home to take care of him because we didn't know what was gonna happen. So I left New York and went to Alabama, right? And I was like on the farm in a leather jacket with a cell phone in the middle of a field trying to get a signal. Right. I was doing self-tapes and sending them off in a McDonald's parking lot because that was the nearest to my agent in New York. And I was like, what is happening? My life is over. And it was really one of those moments where you go, wow, I committed my whole life to this thing. And now what oh my God, it's over. And um this woman who was a mentor of mine, who's this incredible visual artist, I called her and I was crying. I was like, my life's over. I mean, I was it it always feels like that, you know, when you hit these forks in the road. And she said, you know, Heather, your story's never finished being written. Like your story is still being written. And I was like, Okay, okay, I guess it's still being written.

SPEAKER_05 21:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 21:51

You know, so I so I was going through all this stuff with my dad, and I was uh all these things. And then this uh I was in Alabama and I had friends in Nashville, which was Two hours away and heard about Tennessee's first state funded artist residency.

SPEAKER_02 22:06

Wow.

SPEAKER_07 22:06

Which was basically these brand new lofts downtown. We're talking like huge 15-foot high ceilings downtown Nashville for $600 a month, where they're like funding you, and all you have to do is create work. And I went, Oh my god, I gotta get into this place. Right. So I

Nashville Residency Sparks New Work

SPEAKER_07 22:25

ended up getting into this artist residency. And I think because I had lived in New York and LA, where you know you're always rent broke and you're you're just pursuit of, you know, you're like a grind. And I mean, by the time the first month I had lived there, I had already written and I was like shooting stop motion animations. Like I was just like, I don't know how that long this is gonna last. I gotta really, I gotta really make something. So it was that artist residency uh that allowed me to really all of my time was spent in photography, writing, uh, directing music videos. Like I just it allowed like the worst thing that ever that I thought was happening. Right, the last place I thought I wanted to go actually gave me the space to fully commit myself to art in a way that I'd never had before.

SPEAKER_00 23:15

Dang, that's incredible.

SPEAKER_07 23:16

Yeah, and so that's how all of this happened. So I was there, I wrote this film, and Camille Gawadi, who I've known Camille, you guys know Camille. I've known Camille since my first year in LA. Right. We met at a cattle competition in Burbank. We were waitressing at a cattle competition. She was on a TV show at the time. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Not a cattle, a cattle, uh, at a roping, at a roping. They were roping.

SPEAKER_00 23:47

Okay, like a rodeo?

SPEAKER_07 23:49

Yeah, it was like a rodeo.

SPEAKER_00 23:50

In Burbank, California?

SPEAKER_07 23:52

Yes, we were working for this catering service, and I show up and Camille is in tight python pants and a cowboy hat.

SPEAKER_06 23:58

You know how hot Camille is. Like, this is like Camille.

SPEAKER_03 24:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 24:02

And I've got a cowboy hat on and like a Betsy. I'm like, who the fuck is that?

SPEAKER_07 24:07

Like, and so we're smoking behind the bleachers, and I'm like, this is bullshit. I just graduated film school. She said, I'm on a TV show. I'm having to go in the kitchen and watch, watch my show that's airing right now. And so me and Camille became really good friends. And Camille was always very supportive of me when I was in LA. Like she'd try to get me a manager, right? She invested in my One Woman show. And so when I was in um Nashville, I said, Hey, I wrote this script. And she was like, You just gotta make this, and nobody's gonna give you money to make this. But she said, You've always written these things and you gotta make it. And I said, Okay, will you will you like be my co-star? And she was like, Absolutely. So Camille really encouraged me to just she was like, You gotta just make this. Like you've always thought outside of. And so that's how it all started.

SPEAKER_00 24:54

Okay, so you, okay, great. So you were in Nashville. You were living the in the um artist lofts. In the artist's lofts. Okay, and so that gave you time and space to be able to do it.

SPEAKER_07 25:06

Oh, yeah, it was amazing. It was just my whole life. I went, okay, I'm creating this space for myself, like you're doing here. Like, you know, this this space when I went, I'm gonna do whatever the I am gonna treat this like my dream artist space. This is this is all I'm gonna do. I'm gonna be messy if I wanna be messy. I'm gonna create like one section was a stop motion animation thing I was doing, another section was like, you know, where I'd write, another section I was yeah, like I I turned into an artist, like photo studio. I mean, that that's all I was doing. Taking pictures, writing. I was so creative. It

Writing My Best Friend Depression

SPEAKER_07 25:40

was amazing.

SPEAKER_00 25:41

Okay, I love that. Yeah, how so the name of the film is My Friend Depression. My best friend depression. My best friend depression. Yes, my bad. Yes. Okay, so it's your best friend.

SPEAKER_07 25:51

Yes, so so even how that came about, that title is a whole thing. Um I feel like I'm all over the place.

SPEAKER_00 25:56

You're amazing. I think this is great. We we are all over the place, but this is what I find interesting about. When I start people start asking me the lore, I'm like, well, but the thing is that it's just like, I mean, look, what you what you have been able to accomplish, like not only in your career, but just with the film My Best Friend Depression, is astounding, right? Like, like it is truly astounding.

SPEAKER_07 26:19

It's I I will say, so I the when I wrote the film, it started out, it was like, I'm just gonna make a movie, okay? Nobody's gonna cast me to be the lead in a movie. Uh, and I looked up to all of those people that just went and made their own films, like like Cassavetti's. I mean, Cassavetti's, I just watched a 35mm print of this at the arrow, uh, which is one of my favorite films, The Woman Under the Influence. He and Gina Rollins and Peter Falk, they funded that movie.

SPEAKER_01 26:49

Right.

SPEAKER_07 26:50

No one was giving Cassavetis money to make these movies. No one's giving Heather. So that's the thing, right? We often go, like, nobody's giving me that, nobody's letting me do this.

SPEAKER_00 26:59

Real boo story. What the?

SPEAKER_07 27:00

Yeah, nobody was giving Cassavetis money.

SPEAKER_00 27:03

Yeah, and by the way, just a tiny aside to that, is like nobody was giving him money. He was using acting money and he was doing commercials and stuff like that. And the thing that he's dealing with is like they're buying footage of film, they're buying processing, they're doing all this sort of stuff. Like, we have no excuses. Yes, you can literally shoot. I was just talking to a mentor of mine, he just went to the premiere it's uh of slam dance last night. They shot the the the the lead film of the premiere shot on an iPhone. Feature-length movie, the projectionist, right? Wow, shot on an iPhone, right? So we have no excuses, yeah, and so you put your money where your mouth was.

SPEAKER_07 27:39

Yeah, I'm I've just always been a well, I guess I'm gonna do it. Yeah, like if I want to do it, no one I've I'm also someone who's always been told, well, you're not that, but you're not that, but like, you know, so I've always been told like you don't look like which is fine. I've never, but I also have never tried to fit inside of something. Right. So I think I'd be more disappointed if I was trying to be that and I'd go, well, you're still not that.

SPEAKER_01 28:00

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 28:01

So I've just been like, well, this is what it is.

SPEAKER_01 28:03

Right.

SPEAKER_07 28:03

Um, so anyway, uh yeah, Casavetti's was someone who I always just looked up to people who went and did the thing. Right. Like, you just go do the thing, like you don't need permission. And so I decided just to do the thing, and it started out as like, we're just gonna make a movie for $25,000 and that's it.

SPEAKER_00 28:22

Right, right.

SPEAKER_07 28:23

That's it. That's all we need. And so it started that way. Uh-huh. And then it turned into we needed much more money.

SPEAKER_00 28:31

Okay, let's get into the nuts and bolts of that. Because I'm actually really interested if that's okay. Because um, that is a premise that I'm currently operating on right now as well. Like I'm reaching out to friends and collaborators and be like, let's get $25,000, let's go make a movie. You can do it for $25,000. Yes. It is possible.

SPEAKER_07 28:47

Yes. I just ran into a lot of things that I had never dealt like dealt with before. I'd never made a movie before. I'd never, I mean, my cast was huge. I uh my film as my friend says you were really swinging for the fences. I mean, I was really, you know, I had things happen. My producer quit day 14. She like, she ran off with a guy and like left my hard drives in the back of a truck in the rain. Like it was it was a real DIY. You know, it's not like we had it's not like we had a PGA producer on the movie, and then I became and then I became the producer and also the director. So all this stuff I was learning, right? Um, so you can make a movie for that much money.

SPEAKER_00 29:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 29:31

I just haven't done it yet.

SPEAKER_00 29:34

Well, you never had to do it.

SPEAKER_07 29:35

No, but no, but you know, I think there's a lot of freedom in that. I I do think there's a lot of freedom. So I was this this this friend of mine was saying she was very upset because her A D quit on this short. Her A D and producer. And I said, How many days was the shoot? She said, It was two days. And I was like, oh boy, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, like I I think there's something to be said for being able to do things if you have to, if you really want to get it done. I don't I mean, and if you don't have to do that, great. If you can have if you have the the resources and stuff, but I don't know. It's it's very empowering to know that if the shit hits the fan, you can just do it. Yeah. It's not, it's not that big of a deal.

SPEAKER_00 30:25

Right. Right. Yeah, we're we're just making movies.

SPEAKER_07 30:27

Yeah, we're just making a we were just making a movie, but the stakes feel so high when you're in it and all your money is like, you know, it's yeah, you're sacrificing everyone.

SPEAKER_04 30:36

Oh my god, $2,000.

SPEAKER_07 30:38

Like it feels like this is this is it. Um, but but I I learned a lot through that process, but it's a very interesting story how my title even came about. Okay, great. So I wrote the script and I would go to McKay's used books in Nashville, and I would go to the film section, which is incredible because everyone kind of just gives up and they take all their books there. Yeah, of course. You know, it's like it's music city, like they're like, we want to cut a record now. Like, you know, all the film dreams are there. And so you'll get a book and it'll have notes in it. And um, so I so I pulled this book out and I opened it up, and it was just everything that was written in there, and the person had marked all of this stuff, and I went, Oh my god, this book is incredible. And it was called The Filmmaker's Intuition, and it was written by oh my god, I think that's the title, uh, Judith Weston. And she also wrote a book called Directing Actors.

SPEAKER_00 31:30

Anyway, yes, that's a very popular book.

SPEAKER_07 31:32

I'm reading this book and I'm like, Judith Weston, who's Judith Weston? I'm like, I need to look this lady up. So I look her up and I go to her website and she is like a directing coach. Like she's like the secret sauce. Alejandro Ineritu thanked her when he won. Like, like she's the secret sauce to all of these big directors. And it said, if you're a I don't know, $10 million project, or if you're any and I just reached out to her. I was like, hey, can I I live in Nashville, I wrote this script. Well, you can I can I pay you to read my script? And so she read my I did a Zoom session with her. I paid her whatever her fee was, and she said, you know, this script's very interesting, but there's this one thing in here that you're doing. And I feel like this is really what the movie's about, and the rest of this, this is what the movie's about. This is you, and this is authentic to you. And I want to challenge you only make a movie if you want to be changed on the other side of it.

SPEAKER_02 32:35

Wow.

SPEAKER_07 32:37

She said, you know, don't waste people's time. And I was like, what? Now this is what's interesting. So I had done the ground links, yeah, like years before that. And I had created this character that I called my best friend oppression. Yeah. And it was like the final performance lab until you go into the Sunday company. They pick you up to go to the big links. And my teacher, every time I brought something in that class, she would go, I don't know. Everything you bring in here is just so high concept. You just don't really get what we're doing here at the ground links. And that bit was what Jude Weston was telling me was my original voice.

SPEAKER_01 33:16

Right.

SPEAKER_07 33:16

And that I needed to do more of that. And I was like, what the fuck? Like, if she, okay, I'm gonna listen to this lady because the people that she works with, you know. And

Finding Voice Through Collaboration

SPEAKER_07 33:25

so I really spent all this time rewriting my script, and that's and she was right, you know. It really, I wrote this movie from a place of I was someone who had suffered from major depression most of my life, and I didn't know that's what it was. And I had sought treatment around that, and my whole life changed, and um, and that's what inspired the film. I wanted to make a film that people who had been through that would watch this movie and go, yeah, that's that's hysterical. And man, that's exactly what it's like.

SPEAKER_01 33:54

Right.

SPEAKER_07 33:54

And it's been interesting at screenings because we played a couple of festivals. I thought it would be a little more singular in terms of the audience, but all gender, I mean, I thought it was this a female gayest movie, but all genders, all ages, people who have contacted me and emails and telling me they felt seen. I was like, wow, that's all I wanted. That was my only goal. My goal was to make this film for people who know exactly what this feels like. Right. In a very funny, representative way that I felt like I wasn't being represented on the screen, which this is a crazy movie. So I felt like this is my representation.

SPEAKER_00 34:31

It is a surreal film.

SPEAKER_06 34:34

So when somebody really gets it, I'm like, oh yeah, I see you.

SPEAKER_05 34:38

We're out here. Yeah, we're out here.

SPEAKER_00 34:41

That's incredible. I mean, I like I th I saw the film and I was like just so inspired by it. I think it has such a strong voice. I think it's like truly incredible. Um, I think it's shot really well, and I think that there was turbulence in that process.

SPEAKER_07 34:54

Yeah, there was turbulence, but I always knew what I wanted.

SPEAKER_00 34:57

Right.

SPEAKER_07 34:58

And I think that was also the biggest lesson for me is you know, when you're you're direct, like you make the decisions.

SPEAKER_01 35:07

Right.

SPEAKER_07 35:07

And you can want someone to collaborate with you, but ultimately it's it's your vision, it's your you know, and all and and I think I learned a lot too in terms of hiring people and collaborators.

SPEAKER_02 35:20

Right.

SPEAKER_07 35:20

You really want to speak the same language, yeah. I mean, and you know, you collaborate with people, it's it's like there's nothing more exciting to me than meeting an artist. I feel like, oh yeah, like my composer, um, via Mardeau, who's incredible. I had spent years on Facebook typing, does anyone know someone who plays spaghetti western music? And then I say, Does anyone know someone who plays a theremon? Or does anyone know anyone who plays like surf? Like, right. And people were like, What are you fucking talking about?

SPEAKER_04 35:52

What are you doing?

SPEAKER_07 35:53

Because in Nashville, nobody could play this music, which is wild.

SPEAKER_00 35:57

Of all towns in the US, you'd think you'd fight.

SPEAKER_07 36:00

I was asking like for weird, like in I the score was gonna be so important to me. And then someone posted an Instagram of this musician playing the ceremonies. And I went to her Instagram bio and it was like all the things I had been asking for.

SPEAKER_01 36:15

Right.

SPEAKER_07 36:16

And then so I feel like when you're on this process and you feel like I'm at a dead end, how is this gonna finish? And then some collaborator shows up, and it's like, oh my god, oh yes, finally, the art gods have sent me an angel, you know, and Via was just so cool, and all the things I got, she would just go, okay, yeah, now's this. I'm like, oh, it's amazing. Like that, so like she came along when I thought, I don't know how this movie's gonna get finished. Like, I've run out of choose.

SPEAKER_03 36:47

Right.

SPEAKER_07 36:47

And then the guys that did my sound mix, Duft Tone Sound, like they they got it. And so I feel like that's what makes it keep going, is these people show up and they're like, they get it. Yeah, you know, I feel very lucky in that.

SPEAKER_00 37:01

Well, I mean, that's part of the I think that's part of what's enticing about filmmaking, right? Is because it's the idea that is such a collaborative medium, like it has to be by even if the the Artur theory and all that sort of stuff is like people still have to show up and do the thing, yeah, right? And by virtue of them doing the thing, their fingerprints are gonna be on, you know what I mean? Yeah, um, because yeah, I think I read or heard an interview with Greta Gerwig one time say, um, like, well, filmmakers become filmmakers because of the collaborative process. If you wanted to just have control of everything, you'd just be a novelist. I was like, Oh yeah, I think that's a good point.

SPEAKER_07 37:36

Yeah, I I know for me I wanted to work with other people because I had done a couple of One Woman shows and I played like 30 characters.

SPEAKER_06 37:43

Right. And I was like, I wanna I want to be able to work with other actors. Like I got really good advice.

SPEAKER_07 37:49

Some of the best advice I was given was from my friend Um Bobcat Goldthwaite. I love his movies, and he's obviously a great comedian. But he said to me when I was casting, because he had when it was his first film he had starred in, right? And he said, if you're acting in your film, you do not want to cast anyone you have to get a performance out of. You want to cast people that you can really play off of and and have and have fun. I felt like that uh that was crucial because I love uh I'm very proud of the actors in the film. I mean, uh they're all incredible, and some of them had never done film acting before, and I always get complimented on their performances, but they really brought that. So he gave me some really good advice with that. And he also said, if someone's a dick, you gotta fire them.

SPEAKER_00 38:38

Right. That's really good advice too. Honestly, I think that's good advice for everybody listening. It's just like, don't be a dick. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Otherwise, you're gonna get fired.

SPEAKER_07 38:46

I called him because I'd never fired anyone. I was like, I don't know, this guy's doing this. And he was like, Oh, you gotta, you know. Yeah, so I was super grateful to have someone I could call to like get advice from because I, you know, and I I also was like, This is a I wanted it to be a collaborative vibe, but also you you can't do it.

SPEAKER_00 39:04

Yeah, I mean, like the final decision comes down to yeah, yeah, yeah. Because at the end of the day, it's a success or it's not a success based on the byline that says directed by, not like Yes, that's what I was talking about.

SPEAKER_07 39:18

This is someone yesterday. Yeah. Like they're not gonna go, oh well, the the boom was they're gonna say, Oh, Heather LeRoy. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:27

Spent all those years making this film, and it's like, well, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 39:30

I think I too, I really wanted to make that there was a part of me that wanted to make the actors proud when I was really going through the shit of like how am I gonna finish this movie? Like, I gotta make these actors proud. You know, they put all that work, you know. Having been an actor, then you get you you act in a movie and you get cut out, or the movie's crap, you're like, Oh, I can't use this on my rail.

SPEAKER_01 39:51

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 39:52

So I wanted to do that. I know that feeling. I wanted to make the actors proud.

SPEAKER_00 39:56

Yeah, I think it's great. Yeah, okay. So the movie it it took years

Editing, Festivals, And Distribution Reality

SPEAKER_00 40:00

to complete.

SPEAKER_07 40:01

It took years to do. I, you know, COVID happened, then I took a couple years off, then a breakup, you know, life. Life. You're trying to make a comedy about depression, and yet here is no nothing more fun than COVID happening. You're trying to make a depression comedy in the back room. It felt a bit on the nose.

SPEAKER_02 40:16

Sure. So I said for a little while. I set that aside.

SPEAKER_07 40:20

And um, yeah, I and then I moved back to LA a few years ago. Yeah. And I went, the sole purpose was to come back, edit the film, and get distribution.

SPEAKER_02 40:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 40:31

And I got a place near the beach and near the arrow. And for like a year and a half, all I did was I taught acting. I'd go ride a bike on the beach or ride a skateboard on the beach. I'd go to the arrow and I'd edit my movie. And that's how I finished it.

SPEAKER_00 40:45

That sounds incredible. That sounds like it was an amazing life. Amazing.

SPEAKER_07 40:49

Yeah, that sounds awesome.

SPEAKER_00 40:50

I love it.

SPEAKER_07 40:51

Go to the arrow. Yeah. I'd go and be like, oh, and then sometimes I'd sit in a QA and I'd go, What am I doing?

SPEAKER_05 40:57

I'm editing a feature. I gotta get out of here.

SPEAKER_00 41:00

I gotta go. Yeah. I always feel like that whenever I watch award shows. Whenever I watch your award shows, you're like, oh, it's the uh, you know, uh Emmys or it's the Academy Awards, and I'm like watching these people collect all these amazing gold trophies, and like, why am I sitting here? I should be on a film set making a movie.

SPEAKER_04 41:16

I have things to do.

SPEAKER_00 41:17

I've gotta go. I've gotta go. Um, okay, where where are we at with the film right now?

SPEAKER_07 41:23

Where's so where we're at is I'm in distribution process. I think I think I have the company that I'm gonna go with. Okay, great. Congratulations. Kind of finalizing everything, and hopefully it will be out May, June.

SPEAKER_00 41:36

Okay, great.

SPEAKER_07 41:36

And is there uh uh There'll be like QA's in LA and and so you'll be do s doing screenings?

SPEAKER_00 41:42

Yeah, okay, great. That's incredible. Wait, so uh, do you know I mean you might not be able to sign that? I was like, you can't talk about that.

SPEAKER_07 41:49

We gotta sign the we've been in the yeah, but I will say for people who want to make films, you know, DIY films, and they're just learning. I'm the biggest learning curve for me has been everything that happens after the film is done. Right. In terms of you gotta get errors and omissions insurance. Like, you know, producer producers know this stuff, but there's still a lot of money you have to spend if you if you're gonna distribute it.

SPEAKER_00 42:16

Distribute it.

SPEAKER_07 42:17

Like there's a lot of money that has to be spent still. So that's something to keep in mind when you're making your film. If if you're like, oh, I'm gonna just make this and put it out, that's great. But if you wanna, you're gonna need money. You're gonna need more money after the money. You after the money is spent, you're then gonna need more money, right? You're gonna maybe need some more money.

SPEAKER_02 42:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 42:37

So money just prepare yourself.

SPEAKER_02 42:39

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 42:41

There's the stuff you can do and get away with, no money, and then there's the stuff where you need money or you need lawyer friends.

SPEAKER_00 42:48

Okay, great. Well, actually, I'm glad you say that because actually, so before we even get to the distribution conversation, let's let's answer this question. Okay, what were the most uh uh what were the largest lessons that you learned from writing, directing, acting, pr and producing your and editing your uh uh feature film debut?

SPEAKER_07 43:11

Oh the biggest lessons, the most important thing for me is who you're working with, who you're collaborating with, who your team is. It's really, it's really because I if you hire the wrong people, um it's gonna cost you money.

SPEAKER_02 43:29

Right.

SPEAKER_07 43:30

It's gonna cost you time and it's gonna cost you money. So it's really important to find people that you're on the same page um from day one. And this was my first movie, so I didn't know, you know. I I didn't these are all things you learned. And um the other thing I learned, you just you have to you have to really keep going back to why am I doing this?

SPEAKER_02 43:52

Right.

SPEAKER_07 43:53

You know, I'm always inspired by people who they're like, We shot this film, it's a year later and it's out, right, you know, and they did everything. I'm like, wow, that's incredible. And I think I was, I had a little bit of an ego crushing experience that this took me a long time. I was a bit like, yeah, I'm still working on editing it.

SPEAKER_05 44:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 44:12

You know, but that was my process. You know, it's not going to take that long on the next one, I'll tell you that.

SPEAKER_04 44:18

Right.

SPEAKER_07 44:18

We'll never do that again. But but um art takes what it takes. And if you're doing something that you've never done before, you're not gonna know what you're doing. And there's this idea nowadays of like you're supposed to be an expert. Everyone kind of wants to skip all these steps of a craft. And um, I don't know, being an artist, it's it's to me has always been a vocation of like I'm learning these things. Right. Um, and and it's great if you if you're doing another route of commercial, but as someone who hasn't taken that route, I can only speak to this experience, which is I've just been learning things all along. And if it took me that long to communicate what my idea was, that's what it took. Right, you know.

SPEAKER_00 45:05

Yeah, yeah, I agree, I agree with the idea that there's this interesting sentiment that it's like the moment that we like wake up to creativity, we're supposed to be per masters of it. Like it's so interesting. I think that's the internet effection of people talking about craft and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_07 45:22

Yeah, it's it's interesting. I saw I saw on Instagram where this guy was saying he was he was very young, and he was like, Don't show your work, just show you doing stuff. That's what people care about. Um, and I and I don't know, that's very interesting to me. That is it's it's a different time. Uh, people don't want to see me making shit.

SPEAKER_06 45:41

No, I don't know what it's true. I mean, when I'm alone in my room, like writing a script, like I don't, it doesn't feel very sexy. You know what I mean? It's not, I'm not the only person seeing me when I'm writing is the person at the gas station down the street where I'm getting my snacks.

SPEAKER_07 45:55

You know, like I what are your snacks?

SPEAKER_00 45:57

What you go to screen?

SPEAKER_07 45:58

Oh my god, the snacks, the trash. I I felt like I needed to go back and thank the guy that worked at the gas station when I was writing that movie.

SPEAKER_06 46:05

Um, it was just a lot of just junk.

SPEAKER_00 46:09

Yeah. I'm not gonna shame it. You don't have to admit it. It's fine. It's bottom shelf.

SPEAKER_05 46:14

Yeah, yeah. I get it. Hey, look, I'm I don't drink, it's uh bottom shelf chocolates.

SPEAKER_00 46:19

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I was like chocolate covered donuts from like the sleeve of chocolate covered donuts from the gas station. It's like, oh my god, it's my dream. Anytime I'm on a road trip or like like um the last couple years, I've you know been gaffing and key gripping just on random projects, and like every once in a while you got I you get a job where it's like, oh, we're going up to Santa Clara or whatever. Like, oh, this one's in San Fran. So it's like, okay, well, we got a four-hour road trip before we get to the set or anything like that. I'm always getting sleeves of chocolate-covered donuts. I don't know why.

SPEAKER_07 46:50

I love that. I think the other thing too is just I like to encourage people that I meet, because you know, I coach on the side, sometimes actors, and um, and even if it's not someone coaching, just someone younger. I think it's really in the only my I think it's important to find a mentor. Um, and I also think it's important to really find your voice. Like find your voice, find the thing that you connect to that you know, and you only find that through doing. Yeah, through repetition. You have to try things and you have to like be okay if the first thing you paint isn't in a museum.

SPEAKER_00 47:30

That I think it's interesting because like hearing what you said about the guy on Instagram, I think there's two ways to take that, which is that like people are interested in seeing you pursue the process or like they're interested in process, right? Yeah, and then the other thing too is that it's like there is something about um curating what goes out into the world, and like part of that is I think for us at like at like a level of where we're like using our projects at a level to get the next job, right? Like, I think there is a level of curation that's required for our Instagrams and for our websites and for our like how we communicate our own story to possible clients, right? But I'm sort of like, man, at the beginning, you got I'm like, do you want to hide away all that sort of stuff? I'm like, put it all out.

SPEAKER_06 48:16

I mean, I think it's I think it I think it's great. I don't think you have to hide away your process or any of that.

SPEAKER_07 48:23

I think people have way more access nowadays to all of that. I I just think I it's just a new way of thinking. Yeah, for me, you know. So uh I definitely shared what was happening when when we were doing it. Yeah. Um, but I also think there's a lot of value in just the time spent off camera working on your craft. Right. That is that is you that is in the private. Right. It gives you the opportunity to do that. Yeah, that's that's that because there is a thing of as soon as something your process is, you're like, oh, let me check the lighting on this, or oh yeah, that angle look of me creating. Right. You know, so I just think both things are important.

SPEAKER_00 49:08

Yeah, I know. I absolutely agree.

SPEAKER_07 49:10

And um it's a craft.

SPEAKER_00 49:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 49:13

It's a craft. I don't know if that's my only answer to it. I think that's great. Gotta get out there and chop wood and carry water. Yeah. 100%. You just gotta. You're like, well, I'm gonna try this again today. And you know, even when I was trying to figure out how to edit a feature, I never edited a feature. I'd I freelanced I'm a freelance editor too on the side. I'm a photographer and editor, so I know how to do all these things, but telling a story and sustaining an audience's interest for 90 minutes is a whole different thing than cutting a promo. Yeah. The pace. You know, like how do I even figure out this? Right. And that was just through thinking of it like a craft, like, okay, I'm gonna try this again today. Right. Put these pieces together.

SPEAKER_00 49:59

I mean, that's what you gotta do. You just said you were gonna do it and you did it. One day at a time. Absolutely. One day at a time. Absolutely. Okay, so now you're in the distribution phase, you're figuring out that what is the biggest lesson after the movie has been made, after people have seen the film, you are you are now in the process of getting it out to the world so that the world can see the film. What is the biggest lesson that you've learned through that process?

SPEAKER_07 50:23

Oh man.

unknown 50:28

I don't want to say.

SPEAKER_00 50:29

You don't want to say okay. Well, you don't have to. Or this cut that part out. Yeah, or if there's advice.

SPEAKER_07 50:37

No, I just I just my advice is there's just no guarantee on how much money you're gonna make. Um, you know, this is still a business. When I was in college, this film professor said, I made a really cool, like arty 16 millimeter film, and my professor said, Miss LeRoy, this isn't called show art, it's show business. A film professor say that to me. And I remember being like, fuck that guy. Like, you know, but but when it comes to selling a movie, yeah, you know, it's a product, it's a product and it has to check certain boxes. And so you have to be okay if you know, I did I was under no um delusion that my film was gonna be a commercial film. Right. I mean, I made a film called My Best Friend Depression. Right. You know what I mean? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:34

So I'm not gonna be a lot of pharmaceutical background.

SPEAKER_07 51:37

I really wanted to get Well Butrin to sponsor me, you know what I mean? Like still trying to get that sponsorship. Um, and so I it's just interesting. Uh when you're you even if you make something, you're like, yeah, I know this isn't gonna be a commercial thing, just some of the conversations you end up having. And you know, it it's just really it's not easy. But I think like we were talking about, you can distribute things however you want to, you can do DIY, there's so much access.

SPEAKER_01 52:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 52:09

Um, it just, it just, I guess there was nothing surprising about it. I guess it kind of you just gotta find the right place and you gotta find the right person that really gets your movie.

unknown 52:23

Right.

SPEAKER_07 52:24

And then if you find that, it's kind of like a video game. You're like, I got these coins, and then I'm gonna go down to this level. And I don't know. I um yeah, I I can't talk too much to it because I just it is kind of what I expected, but also you it's just continued, the process just continues. You're like, okay, well, that's not going there. Where does it go? Right. And so you keep knocking on all these doors, you keep showing it to all these people, and then someone's gonna get it.

SPEAKER_00 52:54

Right. Which, yeah. So it's just the film and it's a good thing.

SPEAKER_07 52:56

Which happened, which, which, which, which I feel very fortunate that that happened for me. Um, so just don't give up. If you want it, you just have to keep doing the distribution, this. As soon as the business is involved in it, yeah. I mean, it it it it can be Yeah, you just know it can be a bit of a a vibe killer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course. Well, it can be a vibe killer. So you just have to go. Wait, but I know this has an audience, and I know that this has a home, and I know that someone's gonna see this, and so you gotta keep that mentality.

SPEAKER_00 53:28

Yeah. Okay, what's next? What's the future?

SPEAKER_07 53:32

Well, I don't know. I'm writing a couple of things, writing a couple of scripts I'm very excited about, but I also want to, they're like bigger budget ideas, but then I also I kind of want to make something low budget with friends. Like, I don't know, I just want to keep making movies.

SPEAKER_00 53:51

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I understand that. That's that's exactly where I'm at.

SPEAKER_07 53:54

I mean, that I'm kind of keeping it simple, like and taking meetings with representation, and I I love all of that, but at the end of the day, I'm an artist. Yeah, and um, I just want to keep making things, whether someone's giving me permission to or not. Absolutely, and that's what I committed my life to, you know. Some people they get married and have children, and some people have asked me why that wasn't my choice, but I don't think that's a safer route than just pursuing the arts.

SPEAKER_02 54:22

Right.

SPEAKER_07 54:23

They're both high risk, right? You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So so for me, I just want to keep making things and getting better, and that's that's maybe one of these big scripts will get sold, and then you know, we'll be we'll be making it together.

SPEAKER_00 54:41

Yeah, that'd be amazing.

SPEAKER_07 54:42

I think I think what you put into this, you get back, even if it's not uh in the material what you would think. Yeah. So I just think the more you invest in yourself and your craft, you do get back.

SPEAKER_00 54:59

Yeah. Yeah, I I have really been trying to say out loud a lot recently to many collaborators with the idea of being like, hey, we're filmmakers, yeah, and filmmakers make films, yeah, whether somebody buys them or whether somebody gives you money to make them or whatever, is like, you know, sometimes you gotta just will it, and like just the act of truly being love in love with process is the thing that we get our reward from. And then at some point it'll figure itself out. You know what I mean? There will be a story that we participate in telling that will change everything.

SPEAKER_07 55:37

Yeah, I think that's it. You just have to do it because you know there's a lot of movies that aren't that great that get made.

SPEAKER_00 55:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 55:44

Sometimes I sometimes I see a movie, I'm going, wow, that got made. Oh, I can definitely get this made. Like, yeah, there's a lot to be learned from uh films that aren't that great that get made because you go, wow, that got made.

SPEAKER_00 55:56

Yeah. If that can get made, then I can you're like, I can definitely make my thing.

SPEAKER_06 56:02

I can definitely make my thing, you know. Yeah. Uh that if they're making it, I can make it. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:08

Okay, I've got one last

AI Fears And Human Messiness

SPEAKER_00 56:10

question for you before we get to a fun little game.

SPEAKER_06 56:12

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 56:12

Um, and this one is like one that I'm kind of just like curious to see what people's temperature are on it is is like as far as the future of the industry is concerned. Like, are you worried about AI? Do you think it's going to replace all of our jobs? Will filmmaking exist in five years? Three really small questions. Five small questions? Just a casual three-score questions.

SPEAKER_07 56:32

I should I should maybe be. I don't really worry myself. One, I'm not inside of the industry. Now, if I had like some, if I was BFX or maybe I would be worried, but I don't think anything is ever going to replace uh what a human does. But I also get annoyed when I try Chat GPT, when I ask it a question. Like, I'm I get very annoyed sometimes at the answers. I'm like, how is someone falling in love with this? You know, like there are people falling in love with. I'm like, I will have to say, don't, don't, I'm not here for compliments. I'm asking you a question about like what I should. So, so I don't think AI will ever replace uh what a human does or the craft or human connection. Some people, it will. I mean, it's already replaced, they're in relationships. I just saw a whole article about these women were devastated. They're having to break up with their Chat GPT 4.0 and they're crying. And she said, Oh my, there's she's saying goodbye to that older model, and she's devastated, and there's a petition online to bring it back. And I'm like, I'm just that's that's never been of interest to me. Right. I like humans, I like flaws, I like messiness. It's why I love the films that I love. Uh, you know, I I like the messiness and weight of humanity. And people that are just interested in the commerce of art, yeah, it's gonna change. Yeah. Because they need less humans, they don't have to pay as many people. But as far as what I consume and what I like, I'll still be trying to find the world could just all be AI and I'd still be going to that 135 millimeter theater and they could show the scratchiest ass print. And I'd be like, oh God, yeah, feels good. You know, like that's what I'm always chasing. I'm always chasing those real raw feelings. It's why I love Cassavettis, it's why I mean I saw breaking the waves on Valentine's Day at like 11 a.m.

SPEAKER_06 58:32

Right. You know, like I'm not somebody who's gonna fall in love with an AI bot.

SPEAKER_00 58:37

Right. Yes, I mean, yeah. No, I understand that. And I think that you the sentiment of what you've just said has been the thing that I've been hanging on to whenever that question is posed to me. That is just I'm like, okay, it might just not be the same as what we've all perceived it to be. It's like, okay, well, maybe success isn't buying a house in Malibu because you produced a movie that made a billion dollars. It's like, okay, maybe we're just like being artists, like artists have been for generations and generations, and we're getting by, but we're being able to find and tell the stories in a human way that we connect with, and like that'll be enough.

SPEAKER_07 59:14

Yeah, I mean, it's changing the business, obviously. Yeah, but but I it's never gonna replace people are like, it's gonna replace. I'm like, I mean, I've had a good run. If it is, like I'm tired. Like, if that's the case, I guess I'll keep making art. Like, it's not gonna change how I make art, it's not gonna stop me from doing what I do.

SPEAKER_01 59:35

Right.

SPEAKER_07 59:35

Um, there are a lot of people who are, you know, uh, but yeah, it's it's changing the business because everything, it's like when what was that lime wire or whatever? Oh, yeah, yeah. When that Napster was created, it totally disrupted, and everyone's like, that's the end, you know. When a digital camera was created, that's the end. Yeah, it's just changing, evolving.

SPEAKER_00 59:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 59:59

I ain't afraid, I ain't afraid. You ain't afraid. I'm from Alabama.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:03

Okay, great, fantastic,

Final Charge To Make Movies

SPEAKER_00 1:00:05

guys. Heather, thank you so much for joining us today. This has been absolutely incredible. I I find you truly to be such an inspiration. Like, I think your story is truly inspiring. Um, please um take Heather's advice and go make movies and stuff. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_07 1:00:19

Movies and watch movies and theaters. Go to movie theaters. Theaters.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:24

Exactly.

SPEAKER_07 1:00:24

It's important.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:25

Um, okay, I'm going to um end this. Guys, this has been film shit. It is a podcast where we sit down with incredibly inspiring people. Not only is it the umbrella of what we talk about, it is a call to action. So if you want to sit into this chair where Heather is someday, please go film some shit. I'll talk to you soon. Love you much. Talk later.