From Pre Med To Producer

A career can start with a plan or it can start with a hard left turn. Jerry Ying’s story is the second kind: pre med in New York, zero interest in drama, then one decision to step into a more creative life and everything changes. We talk about the unexpected on ramps that actually build an acting career, from waiting tables in Soho to modeling gigs to booking major commercials when there were few Asian faces on TV, and how success can arrive before you even feel ready to claim the identity of “actor.”

From there, we get into the craft and the cost. Jerry shares what drama school forced him to confront about empathy, taste, and what it means to be an artist, then how the work evolves into producing when you stop waiting for permission and start making projects. We unpack the rise of We Are Fathers, the moment the industry hype machine hits your passion project, and why “take it to the max yourself” can protect your voice in film and television.

Then we go full nuts and bolts on producing: building Hero LA, partnering with experienced producers, and pulling off a union feature on an insane timeline with a tactical set mindset and brutally prepared actors. We also revisit the pandemic era with Quarantine, a Zoom based improvised soap that raised donations for SAG Foundation COVID relief, and the reality check every producer hits sooner or later: loving projects isn’t a business model unless you can get paid.

We close with the big question: what is the future of the film industry and media? We talk independent filmmaking, creators building their own audiences, and why understanding business makes creatives more powerful than ever. If you enjoy honest career stories from working pros, subscribe, share this with a filmmaker friend, and leave a review. What part of Jerry’s path sounds most like your own?

Transcript

Welcome And Meet Jerry Ying

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hey everyone, how's it going? My name is Nate Caled, a Los Angeles-based cinematographer, and this is Film Shit, the podcast where I sit down with a working professional in the TV and film industry. I ask them how they got here, what exactly it is that they do, and what the future of the industry looks like. Um, guys, if you do like what we're doing here today, please be sure to like and subscribe, leave us a comment, ask some questions. It really does help us out and helps this get into the feeds of more people. Today I am incredibly excited to introduce a dear friend of mine, um, an actor, a producer, a creative force. Jerry Ying. I have more hyphenates that I was gonna drop for you, but I was like, boy, how many hyphenates can a guy have? Jerry, what's up, dude?

SPEAKER_01 0:44

Nate Kwood, my guy.

SPEAKER_00 0:46

Dude, thanks for having me here. Dude, thank you very much for joining us. I'm very grateful, man.

SPEAKER_01 0:50

Very tight intro, very tight intro.

SPEAKER_00 0:51

Thank you. Uh, you know, I've got a couple on I've I've I think this is episode four, so I've got four under the belts. We're honing it as we go. We're learning a lot of lessons. Um beautiful set. Uh thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:03

Hi, sir.

SPEAKER_00 1:03

Okay, so the first place that I like to start off with is Jerry. How did you um get to the creative position that you're in now?

SPEAKER_01 1:10

Oh man. Where are you from originally? Uh originally born in Louisiana. Okay. Wow. Grew up in New Jersey. Yeah, I got a little by you and me. Um, and uh school in the Midwest and then was in New York City for a good 13 years. And that's where this whole journey unexpectedly started.

SPEAKER_00 1:27

So you but you began life uh like a creative journey as an actor, is that right?

SPEAKER_01 1:32

Uh yes and no. I I you know, unlike most people in this industry, I never ever thought, you know, being the an Asian son of immigrants, you know, just being in the creative world just was never really in the cards. And I never thought about it. It wasn't something like I wanted to do. My parents were like, no, you can't do high school drama. Like I had no interest in doing any of that.

SPEAKER_00 1:53

Okay. So you didn't do so, so let's start young. When you were young, were you a creative person?

SPEAKER_01 1:58

I yeah, I was. Yeah, and I was very creative, like Legos, model building, right? Cosplaying

Growing Up Creative Without A Path

SPEAKER_01 2:05

in the backyard, you know, just regular kid stuff, guns.

SPEAKER_00 2:09

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:09

You know, so I was a creative person, but it never crossed my mind that I mean, there were no um Asians really on TV except Saturday morning. So like I would just do a lot of like kung fu in the backyard with my friends, right?

SPEAKER_00 2:22

Of course, like broomsticks, like that'd be um okay, gotcha. So so when you were like when you get to like high school or whatever, are you in like art class? Are you in choir? Are you in any acting? No, I had um no empathy.

unknown 2:36

Really?

SPEAKER_01 2:37

Like absolutely zero. Well, it was uh not like I said, none of that was in my world. I was just going along with the plan, went to college and then went to grad school and was gonna go to medical school. Well, okay, what'd you go to college for? Uh communications, but I was really pre-med, so I went to Michigan and it's uh pre-med's not a major, so you gotta do all those and also take a major. So I chose communications. Right. And then went to do, yeah. No, keep going, please. No, and then went to Columbia and New York and did uh post-baccalaureate science stuff just to prep me for medical school. Right. That was the plan.

SPEAKER_00 3:14

Okay, so you brought it up, Asian immigrant parents. Was the medical field um a decision made for you?

SPEAKER_01 3:22

I you know, I don't recall any decisions. I think I was just going along with that journey. And while I was in New York, things just took a hard left. I was just, I just left

Leaving Medicine For New York Life

SPEAKER_01 3:35

it, you know, pretty much and started waiting tables down in Soho.

SPEAKER_00 3:38

What why did that happen?

SPEAKER_01 3:41

I think I think this is where that seed, when I connected the dots backward, I realized that I needed my life to be more creative. Uh-huh. But I had this like every interaction was kind of like, Jerry, you were this is your really small bubble you're in. Um, you're gonna be, you know, going along blindly. You haven't made a choice to do this, and you're gonna be like in a fraternity the rest of your life. And so I kind of just made a hard left. I saw this like sighting restaurant called King Cow down in Soho. It was like an incredible Thai restaurant that was just bustling with people and energy, and started waiting tables. And through there, that was my gateway. That's the gateway drug for entertainment, is the restaurant industry.

SPEAKER_00 4:25

Waiting table. Okay, so uh we gotta stop here. Let me make sure that I understand. So you're at Columbia in New York, working you're you're you're working on a master's degree post-backy, so to speak, you're about to become you're on the track to become a doctor, and then you saw a vibrant Soho restaurant, and you were like, fuck it up.

SPEAKER_01 4:46

It's a really strong word. I would say that was the intention. Um and uh yeah, I just I just took a hard left into a completely different world downtown, you know.

SPEAKER_00 5:00

So is that part of it? Because Columbia is is up north, right?

SPEAKER_01 5:02

I was on the upper west side, and then I was doing genetic engineering in a lab in NYU, living with my friend who's now an incredible hand surgeon, uh, Dr. Politz, shout out. And uh I was living in Murray Hill. Like, yeah, could you be more you know, on a professional sort of like postgraduate like bubble? So I just had to leave Murray Hill and I got a place on First Avenue and First Street, which is the opposite or the or otherwise known in Seinfeld as the Nexus of the Universe?

SPEAKER_00 5:36

Is it? Oh, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 5:37

Kramer calls it that. Anyways, first and first. First and first. And that's kind of how things happened. Even then, by the way, I still had no idea I was gonna be uh in the creative world. I s I was just waiting tables and really taking uh that was like where I really learned about life. That one.

SPEAKER_00 5:53

How old were you the the moment that that choice came?

SPEAKER_01 5:56

I was 22.

SPEAKER_00 5:57

You were 22, 22 or 23. Okay, this is so interesting. This is such an interesting course, and that this is fantastic because I I feel like it's really common. I actually one of the reasons why I want to do this podcast is the idea of to speak to as many people in this industry as possible, creative entity people, to understand that everybody's journey is different. So anybody who's watching it, it's like, oh man, I really want to get into TV and film or long-form narrative storytelling through moving images, but I can't do it, X, Y, and Z. It's like, no, no, no, no. Literally, everybody thought that they couldn't do it, or didn't know it existed until they stumbled into it. So, like, this is so exciting to know that you were like, you were 23 and you were just looking for something else, and and like a bustling Thai restaurant was the thing that that made it happen.

SPEAKER_01 6:44

Drawn, you know, like that's kind of the year I feel like I really started growing up. You know, you're working with single moms, foreigners, Australians, French people, you know, I mean, all sorts, just angry people, sure. You know, I mean it's New York, baby. Yeah, it was just all sort of and then the customers, it was just great. Um, it wasn't it was like a kind of the center

Modeling And Booking Big Commercials

SPEAKER_01 7:05

of the universe for a little bit. But through there, yeah, I got pulled in, you know. Uh at the time, like it was a lot of fashion people there. So I was being asked to test, you know, and for modeling. And I was like, really me? I'm like short Asian and I have long hair. Like, yeah, I don't even understand what this is. So through that, I started doing that, and then you always get stuck or you get placed at a commercial agency. So and you have a special agent. Yeah, it's called like a beauty agent, right? Where you are doing the same things, but you're getting paid more, like a lot more. So, and even then, which by the way, I started finding a lot of success. Like, it was at an era where there was like no Asians in commercials. Wow, okay. So, like, if they didn't want a white person or a black person, there there I was. And so, like, I worked a lot.

SPEAKER_00 7:52

Okay, so like at like in commercials, like as an actor, yeah, like right away.

SPEAKER_01 7:55

Like, my first commercial was a Super Bowl commercial, then a Budweiser commercial. Like, I just started racking up, and this was like back in the day where it was like all class A. There was like no cable, right?

SPEAKER_00 8:05

So I was making great money. So in your in your early 20s, this happened.

SPEAKER_01 8:09

In my early 20s, this happened, and even then I didn't consider myself an actor, like didn't even think about it still. Right. I was like the commercials, working commercials was not acting to me, you know. It was like it is they is no disrespect. Not taken. I was like, I think there's the argument that that's true. No, but back then it was more like you're ensemble, you're doing this. Now, as you mature into it, you start making choices, you start being a spokesman, very different. But early on, it was like, hey, just drink this Budweiser, hey, do this, you know, right? It was just kind of just going with the flow. It was like modeling in motion, right? Right, is what it was in the beginning. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then the way it really started was I got I was in a taxi going out, and uh the taxi driver turns around and asks if I was an actor, and I was like, No, I'm not an actor. And he's like, Well, you look like the lead of my film. I'd love for you to audition for it. And next thing you know, New York taxi driver, writer director, he was and it was like me or Max adjacent, and he was driving money to raise extra funds for post-production. And uh, next you know, I was a lead in a feature film shooting for like six weeks in New York City, and I didn't know what the F I was doing, but I was having a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_00 9:25

This is this is incredible, and I actually like love this. Like, there it's interesting because there is large portions of what you're saying that isn't that different from my own story, where it's just like I just stumbled into doing improv, and then somebody was like, Oh, you should get an agent, and then that agent was like, You should book commercials. And I was like, Oh, I oh, okay, just kind of like floating and yesing, just like just being young and being like, whatever. Saying yes, like let's have fun. Exactly. What's yeah, um, okay, that's great. So you're doing so. Did you

Taxi Driver Film And Drama School

SPEAKER_00 9:55

when you're on set for six weeks in New York City as the lead of a feature film that was um being spearheaded by a New York taxi cab driver? Did you learn to become an actor, or were you did you change like did by the end of it, or are you like, I'm an actor?

SPEAKER_01 10:13

No, I think I was more of a nuisance to everybody. I was really because I was really enthusiastic and I was excited to be doing it. There was two leads. There was the good guy, the protagonist, and I was the antagonist. We were both part of a gang. Um, but I just remember like constantly asking all the actors, like, hey, what are we doing tonight after we work? Like, what are we doing when we rap? And had no cognizant like understanding of uh they may be preparing right for a craft. But I remember on the last day of shooting, there was a two-handed scene, like me and you sitting at a kitchen table, and I felt it. I remember being like, wow, that was there. I was with you. That was freaking awesome. And then uh then I went to drama school.

SPEAKER_00 10:56

Okay, wow. So it was like, man, that's such an interesting journey, and that's uh like I I find that to be incredible, which is like, well, you I just kind of stumbled my way into stuff, and then I was like, wow, I really like this. Maybe I should do more of it. Where did you go to um acting school?

SPEAKER_01 11:10

Uh William Esper, famous Bill Esper in New York. Um, he also used to run the Ruckers drama program. Okay. So I was studied with Bill for two years and also did masters there. But mind you, I didn't leave there like being a good actor. I think I needed that time to well, by the way, that's where I learned I had zero empathy. Right. It was in drama school. Yeah, they were like, okay, so you feel this way, and you're like, I don't feel that way. No, I did this scene, like, you know, in an improv it was an improv scene. You know, we had our pre-circumstance, and uh, me and my roommate, and I was supposed to come home, he was dying of AIDS. And in the beginning, I was really compassionate, and then by the end, I was literally yelling at him. Right, put on your boots, we're going to the park and we're gonna have fun, goddamn it. And then I turned around to the class thinking, like, I just did the most amazing scene ever, and all their jaws were like dropped to the ground, and I was like, I have a problem, don't I? And they were like, Bill was like, Yeah, Jerry, just sit down. And that was kind of the beginning of me being like, Oh, there's something wrong with me. Yeah, okay, and and so have you how have you navigated this moment? But that's all part and parcel of like, I remember, you know, the first day of class, he's like, Have you read this playwright? Have you read this playwright? Have you read Sam Shepherd? And like, I didn't raise my hand to a single thing he said. Yeah. And he was like, What director would ever want to sit down with you, Jerry? Like, what would you have in common? And so that started my journey of one going to Sam Shepard. I mean, not Sam Shepherd, um, Sam French. Yeah. And buying, like, going through the canon of playwrights and you know, buying five plays here, being check off, whatever it was. And then that led to going to the theater, which by the time I left drama school, it was like, oh, which production is cymbaline? You know, the one that bam? Oh, yeah, I love that one too. Like, so that was my I left drama school kind of just understanding what it meant to be an artist.

SPEAKER_00 13:05

Right. Okay. And what how old were you when you like when that happened? When you were like, I'm exiting drama school, I'm an artist.

SPEAKER_01 13:13

I no, I definitely did not leave thinking I was an artist, but I left thinking I had an understanding finally of what it meant and a real passion for it and real joy to be and a respect for artists. Um, I think I was like 27, 27 was kind of, but yeah, it was around then. But I was also like the irony was like I was working a lot, like I was making money doing commercials and like paying for all my classmates. We'd always have drinks afterwards, right? So it was like this weird juxtaposition of I was working, making insurance, making good money, and and uh kind of just starting to do a little theater in New York. And then that just led to TV. Well, it led to independent film first and then TV. Right. That was kind of the journey.

SPEAKER_00 14:00

Okay, great. And then like how was TV? Did you stay in New York to do TV or did you go to LA?

SPEAKER_01 14:05

No, I came to LA. Um I came to LA, started doing TV, but in New York was kind of mostly small theater and started a theater company. Um that was kind of fun. And then uh yeah, I came to uh LA and just started putting myself in whatever, you know, doing what everyone was doing, going to the trades, getting into any the advice was just work, right? Do anything, a short film, whatever it is, get out there, meet the community. That led to doing features, features, a lot of action stuff. So there was a lot of like training, a lot of gunplay, a lot of this. Okay, so that led to TV.

SPEAKER_00 14:39

Actually, really quickly, so let's go back a little bit. So you were in New York, you were starting,

Learning Empathy And Becoming An Artist

SPEAKER_00 14:45

you're uh burgeoning artists, you're starting to identify this, you're uh cobbling together some sense of empathy. And uh it took 20 years.

SPEAKER_01 14:54

By the way, that's how I know that you can't just say, you know, like our country is kind of divided, and that is one of the main things. You don't just gain it overnight, it takes 20 years of really wanting to have it, right?

SPEAKER_00 15:07

Like you know what I mean, which is why I really recognize you know, no empathy and empathy because it's it's a choice, yeah, and also probably yeah, like one that you have to actively choose to activate to every day. Yeah, especially if you start off with zero. Right. So, what caused you wh when did the decision to m move to Los Angeles take place? When were you like, I've I've experienced New York, I've done it, I need to go to LA? I I never really had that feeling.

SPEAKER_01 15:34

I loved New York. Um, I came out to LA for a job, and then I just went back and forth for two years. Maybe my most only regrettable thing was that I thought I kept my place in New York City, I got a place out here in LA because it was just so cheap, and I went back and forth, and like in my mind I thought I was going to double my income. But like I doubled my expenses and halved my income. But it was really fun to be bi-coastal for a couple years.

SPEAKER_00 16:02

Right. Um Okay, so you were doing independent film here in Los Angeles, yeah, action-y stuff.

SPEAKER_01 16:10

Action-y stuff, still doing commercials, and then started doing TV, like a lot of cop stuff, paramedic. Like the big joke is that I've been a cop on every hour-long TV show that existed.

SPEAKER_00 16:21

Right. Well, that's great though. That is you have a niche. Yeah, sir, please please step back. Okay, geez, Louise, I'm sitting down. Um, okay, that's great. So so you're doing procedurals, you're still doing commercials, like you're you're you're surviving, like life is good. What what what years are this? How old are you? Like, what kind of years are we talking about? Oh man.

SPEAKER_01 16:41

Um I don't know, late thirty my early 30s, I would say. Right. A lot of my early 30s. Um, I didn't start producing probably till like my mid or late 30s, maybe even later.

SPEAKER_00 16:54

Right. Yeah. Okay, so you're just you were an actor. You were an actress of blue-collar surviving actor in the city of Los Angeles. Okay, so then what I mean you now the version of Jerry Ying that I know has like a ton of hyphen it's like you're creating tons of stuff, like you're working on books, you're you have uh a feature that that you guys did took to can. Like you, like there's a bunch of that I met you as a producer that produced a podcast.

SPEAKER_01 17:21

Or I'm sorry, a pilot. That's how we met. I produced uh pilot that Nate and Echo. Yeah, yeah, directed.

SPEAKER_00 17:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:28

So it's like, um, how did that version of Jerry Ying come to be? I think I I was having this thought, and it was I'm an actor, I can't act all day. I have all this other time. I should be doing something else, I should be learning something, but I didn't really have an idea. Then I had a friend that was uh went through a a real struggle, a real difficult time, and I was like, why don't we write

Moving To LA And Working TV

SPEAKER_01 17:55

something? It'll be cathartic. And next thing you know, like I produced and directed a series, wrote a series, seven episodes of called We Are Fathers. And that kind of launched me into literary. All of a sudden, Paradigm and Untitled had picked me up, and we were trying to sell the show. Right. So it was pretty pretty quick, and then it was that's how that's how it happened. I kind of didn't seek it out.

SPEAKER_00 18:17

It kind of just another situation where you're like, let's just try let's let's just try it, see what happens.

SPEAKER_01 18:23

I mean, yeah, take some agency of your career a little bit. I'm not in the show, so this was purely like create something that's it was almost like can I mimic my professional life? You know, because I've been on sets, I know all you know all the departments. I think one of the special things about being an actor is you really are familiar with all the departments because you touch points with all of them, you know what they do, right? You know what I mean? You know the language, and so I always thought I still think actors that learn how to direct are like really powerful creatives, right?

SPEAKER_00 18:54

Yeah. Okay, so you do We Are Fathers. So I do We Are Fathers. Okay, and so it does it become a TV show? Are you guys actually able to make it?

SPEAKER_01 19:00

No, this is a so that we had all this momentum. We raised all this money, we shot the series, it was great. I loved it, it was really funny, it was single cam. Um and then you get pumped into the pipeline. All of a sudden there's excitement around it, like in the industry. Uh untitled. I remember I walked in with my producing partner, and they take us into a room, and we sh we had this moment, it was like uh Western. He's he's like, So, you know, what do you guys want to do? Do you want me to watch it? And I was like, Yeah, and he's like, right now, and I was like, Yeah, right now. And he's like, Looks at me, we had this like standoff, he goes, Great, let's go into the war room. And we go into his office and he puts it on, he watches it, and as soon as it's done, he just jumps up and goes

Creating We Are Fathers The Hard Way

SPEAKER_01 19:45

on the chalkboard, like, that's better than this show on TV, this show, this show. We're going here, here, here. And me and my partner keeping it cool, and you might know this. Yes, we're keeping it cool. The whole walk to the elevator, door closes, and we just start hugging and jumping.

SPEAKER_00 20:00

Right.

SPEAKER_01 20:01

And then I realized years later, that is every talent agent and manager's job is to make you feel like you have the best show on the planet. Right. It's not an like the expectations got so crazy after that.

SPEAKER_00 20:12

Right.

SPEAKER_01 20:13

But you know, it was fun to have that moment where you think you made it. And you're like, yes, yeah, like that whole jumping and hugging. And so I went down the path of they wanted to make it a TV pilot. Right. Which looking back, I should have just continued on with the journey of what we started. Right. And so it paused, made a TV show, wrote it, took months, of course, took it around, wrote, and I was just stressed.

SPEAKER_00 20:37

And yeah, it's interesting because hearing that, like I I feel like that's a really common thing that happens in this industry, in this town in particular, where there's like this sort of like organic, self-motivated creative thing that like spawns from just life and feeling like you need to do something or whatever. And then it's cool and exciting. And then the industry wants to touch it a little bit. And the second that they touch it, it becomes this other thing where it's just like, well, you gotta do this, and then you gotta do this. And then it's all the you gottas, yes, are just hurdles. They seem like they seem like fast tracks, but they're actually hurdles that prevent you from doing the thing that was interesting in the first place.

SPEAKER_01 21:24

Yeah. It's like this, that's where I think the gatekeeping and I think where all the you have to do this, then you have to do this. Like, there's like, but truly, I think when you have something organically that you're doing with yourself or your friends, just take that to the max and then let it go from there, you know, and see what else you could do.

SPEAKER_00 21:41

A hundred percent. That's like I keep uh I'm I'm trying to shoot three feature films by the time I turn 40, which will be like the end of this year. I've got one under my belt and we're going to Poland to shoot a second one in April.

SPEAKER_01 21:52

Nice.

SPEAKER_00 21:52

So, um, but I keep telling all of my friends, my collaborators that have collected throughout the years of doing improv and acting and writing and All that sort of stuff that are really talented creative people. And I was like, Phil, we want to be filmmakers, filmmakers make films, so we gotta just go make films and then worry about all the other bullshit later. Because like the thing is that it's like interest the industry itself, and I think why we're uh I'm excited to talk to you about the future of the industry, but I think one of the reasons why we're at this weird nexus of all this, all these companies acquiring each other and all this sort of shit because nobody knows what the future is, but the future is them perceiving that they're gonna make profits and dividends for their shareholders off of bigger and bigger projects while not allowing creatives to be creatives. And my belief is that the future is actually us doing what you're talking about, taking we are fathers, the seven episodes, and just making it until it has no more organic means to continue. And they're like, and that's I think it's pure then.

SPEAKER_01 22:52

I think you know the industry does latch on and you're basically trying to conform. Right. You know, and most of the time you need to conform, but it's also because you don't really know any better, you know, you're kind of naive, you know. And it's almost like you need to find your voice, and then you can do that, right? Then you can leverage that into whatever it needs to be, right?

SPEAKER_00 23:11

But and I think voice now is actually audience, right? Which is like if we were able to find your voice, which is connecting with an audience, then the world is your oyster.

SPEAKER_01 23:20

Yeah, I think that's where the authenticity comes from is what do you have to tell? What do you have to share?

SPEAKER_00 23:25

Right. So okay, well, we'll get to the we'll get to the future of the industry in a second, Cherry. Let's finish your past before we get there. Yes, let's do okay. So you're making uh We Are Fathers Is Made, and then so did you just inherently become a producer by virtue of having to produce this project?

SPEAKER_01 23:41

I th I I think directors are the biggest producers for the most part, especially when it's you're it's an indie, you know, you're you're working day, nights, your energy driving anything, everything. Um and yeah, it's you you're you're the main cog. Right. And you're the reason why everyone's coming together, working at a discounted rate. Right. You know, that you're the reason why the talent is buying into it because of your relationships. So yeah, so that was uh it was great experience. Um and yeah, the writing just was proof that you could go make something, right? It's not there's no, you know, magical spell that needs to happen. Like just gotta say, I'm doing it, and then people get on board, yeah, and then you go do it.

SPEAKER_00 24:28

Okay, great. So then I met you uh through a company that you were uh owner or co-owner, founder of Hero LA, right? So you guys produced our um pilot, and so how did Hero

Hero LA And Producing As A Pivot

SPEAKER_00 24:40

LA come to be?

SPEAKER_01 24:41

Hero LA came to be because of the experience with writing in TV. Um, so I was writing, I was writing pilots, I was pitching, and I was stressed. And I asked myself the question, uh, what's my goal? And my goal at the time was crush a writer's room for two, three years and then showrun. Right. And that's when I realized I would be a hundred X in that sort of tele corporate television world. And I just pivoted and I said, No, that's okay. And I remember I went to my reps and said, I'm not gonna write anymore, but we'll find a way to work together down the road. And I immediately started talking to people at production companies and be like, How did you do this? And so Hero LA came from just finding two partners that I had worked with, and you know, the idea was commercial side supporting scripted, right? But you know, it took a lot longer than that to make happy. And we got through you because we a big move was I partnered with um one of Paul Thomas Anderson's producers, Albert Chi, who was his producer on his side. Right. You know, he made like the Master Inherent Vice and those movies. I don't know if you ever heard of them.

SPEAKER_00 25:55

Yeah, I've heard I've heard of Paul Thomas Anderson. I've I've seen a couple of his films, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:59

He he brought into our ecosphere our first feature and these two pilots.

SPEAKER_00 26:03

Right.

SPEAKER_01 26:04

Um, there were two pilots we shot for Project 10 that did Shits Creek. Yes, and we had just come off doing our first feature with Malora Walters directing, Miro Sorvino, Gil Bellows, Jay Moore, and premiered at Rome. And so that was all in

The 10 Day Union Feature Sprint

SPEAKER_01 26:20

that time frame of Hero LA. So it was a lot of learning.

SPEAKER_00 26:23

Oh, okay. So let's get into the the film. Okay, so I apologize. I said can, but it's Rome. You guys went to Rome with this feature. We've had, yeah, but we've had films that can later. Okay. That was our first feature. Okay, so let's get into that because I'm uh like I'm curious about that. Because that that's again, that's like one of these things. It's like filmmakers make films, like you just figure it out, right? You've decided you've done all of these other things to this point. We've been talking for 30 minutes. You first started as a um a communications major thinking he was going to be a uh a doctor, and now all of a sudden you were stumbling into an actor, and then you found empathy and artistry, and then uh you became a writer, director, producer, or hero LA, and then a feature lands in your lap. This all sounds like a cautionary tale, by the way. It is a cautionary look, caution is the inspiration and cautionary tales are one and the same. It just depends on what side of the coin directly.

SPEAKER_01 27:15

Um, no, it was crazy because this is the setup. Um, Dominic Monaghan, we were supposed to do a short film, he was supposed to direct it, it was supposed to be his directing debut, and then he gets pulled to Star Wars, and then Melora Walters, who is a wonderful actress, I don't know if you know her from Magnolia, and she's called she's in that PTA world. Yeah, and um she was like, I have a feature script. What if I raise some money and we shoot it? And I we were this is like Christmas, and we were like, Yeah, sure, Malala Melora, like, great, go go raise that money. Right. Sure enough, January 1, she's like, I've got some money, but we have to start shooting in 11 days. And we're like, What? Yeah, 11 days, and we only have 10 days to shoot. So we were like, wait a second, you want us to pre-production in 10 days and shoot in 10, 11 days? And I just looked at me and Albert looked at each other and we're like, the town is dead in January. Right. We can get out of this month and have a feature in our can in the can. And so we just said, fuck it, let's do it.

SPEAKER_00 28:19

Right. And it was bananas. Okay, let me ask you a couple questions before you get into that. Why 11 days? Why did you guys have to shoot in 11 days? Why only 10 days? She only raised enough money for 10 days or something. It was all because of the DP. We had an incredible DP. Okay. And that was a good one. What was their name for you, remember?

SPEAKER_01 28:35

Chris. Uh, I can't remember. That's okay. I'll look it up. I'm just interested because it's like really wonderful. I want to have him on the podcast. He's really wonderful. I mean, I'll say this pre-production was batshit, and it was union. Right. Pre-production was batshit. Um, locations, a lot of locations, a lot of stuff going on.

SPEAKER_00 28:52

And right, all things that are difficult for indie films.

SPEAKER_01 28:55

Anyone that knows knows that 10 days was is bananas to pre-pro a feature film. And but the shoot was smooth. We only had one day of overtime that we knew we were gonna have, and we had a great shoot. Testament to the actors. Uh, by the way, this is for actors, and I learned this on set as a producer. These guys are pros. Mira Cervino, obviously, yeah, pro. Gil Bellows from Shawshank Redemption, obviously pro. All these guys, uh, they were prepared. And when I say prepared, like there were days that we were moving so quickly that I remember Gil Bellows at lunch. I was like, hey, Gil, um, we're moving really quickly. We're thinking about moving scene 23-4 to the afternoon. And this was like the big dramatic scene. And he's like, Oh, that's scary. But as an actor, you know, I know when people are scared, you know they're gonna do it. Yeah, because you you you kind of go to that like a moth to a flame. And he's like, Let's do it. This is a four and a half page scene. First rehearsal take, him and Malora nail it. They were that prepared. Right. They knew another day's dialogue that day, the day before.

SPEAKER_00 30:05

Right. Oh my god, that's giving me goosebumps just thinking about it. Like, as a also, like I want to be clear about this as well. I have never considered myself to be an actor. I've never considered doing commercials as being acting. I just considered it being like a capitalist thing that people are asking me to do, and then I have a very specific skill set that I've honed through doing improv that allows me to do that, right? That sounds so scary to me and like a thing that I couldn't do. Even when I was like in acting class being an actor, I was like, I can't do that.

SPEAKER_01 30:36

I was like, watch, I was on the monitor, and I just remember having a thought like, I'm the guy that shows up like learning his lines, like trying to nail them down in the rehearsal.

SPEAKER_00 30:45

Same.

SPEAKER_01 30:46

And these guys came and brought it, and that we could have, I'm pretty sure we shot that rehearsal, could have used that.

SPEAKER_00 30:52

Right.

SPEAKER_01 30:52

I'm I I bet part of it made it into the edit. Anyways, the only way we shot that film in 10 days was because everyone knew their shit. We had the producing team had it locked down, right? And and uh we didn't let Malora, who was the lead actress and also director, come to Video Village. So we did everything on set. Her, the DP, and the editor after each take would meet on set, talk, and trust that so she wasn't watching playback at all. No, she trusted us with that, and she trusted the editor and Chris, um, the DP. So that's how we were able to move smoothly quickly, prepared actors, and uh like just a tactical, like we treated it like a SEAL team six vibe, like yeah, it's pretty tactical.

SPEAKER_00 31:36

I mean, you have to, you had you're saying you had 21 days to from soup to nuts, basically.

SPEAKER_01 31:41

We were in the can by the 21st or 22nd, and after that, nothing scared me. Right, nothing scares me. Like, if we could do that. By the way, this is a funny story. Like, in part of the journey, um, the night before we started shooting, Albert, we got into some tiff. It was an ego thing with me and the other producer, and I just remember being like, I could produce this film. What do you mean I can't produce this film? Like in my mind, I'd produced a lot of different things already, shot commercials, done things. I think I'd done your pilot. Yeah, and um, he's like, No, you can't. And it just like, he was like, No, you can't. And I remember like first week on set, I was like, No, I couldn't have done this on my own. I needed to learn from someone. I remember he was standing offset, and I walked up to him really sheepishly, and I was like, You're right, I couldn't have. And then he took off on me for this for the last week, the last six days of the shoot for a freaking emergency.

SPEAKER_00 32:34

And then I had to carry the feature on my own. Of course, the death of the ego is the thing that you needed to take place. He just murdered your ego, yeah, and then you were also totally fine with that and learned from and then that's when the student becomes the master, right? Yeah, that's why he could probably walk away.

SPEAKER_01 32:49

Yeah, but it was uh of course, none of us are actually masters, but yeah, that experience made prepared me for everything that followed after that. Was if you could do that, you know, in that time frame, and then we're premiering on like the biggest red carpet in Rome, right, with monster filmmakers. Like, I think they were honoring Sorsesi. I mean, they were monsters, and we were like this tiny Indie feature, and it was just incredible.

SPEAKER_00 33:14

That is incredible, yeah. Okay, so after that, like that was right before COVID, right?

SPEAKER_01 33:20

Or that was right before COVID. We took it to Rome, we

Quarantine Zoom Soap And Donating Proceeds

SPEAKER_01 33:25

were up for best feature at Austin, and then went to Sundance. The film didn't go to Sundance, I went, and then COVID happened.

SPEAKER_00 33:33

And then so right, Sundance is like traditionally like late January or early February or something.

SPEAKER_01 33:38

It was right after Sundance, and uh well, immediately going to COVID, I made quarantine, which we did with the SAG Foundation. So I showed yeah, we should talk about that too. That wasn't a best experience ever, but I show around 26 episodes with amazing actors because no shows were work on, no one was working.

SPEAKER_00 33:57

But you guys just to be clear, this is you shooting through Zoom or something.

SPEAKER_01 34:01

We did it through Zoom, yeah. I was like, I had this idea, like, We are fathers, then corn. There's I every three or four or five years, I get a real itch to do something, yeah. And that was it coincided with the pandemic. And as soon as things shut down, I was like, this is my opportunity. And so I came up with a concept of a soap, a soap cast that was down for the pandemic. And it was once I had that concept, then it was easy to cast. Like, you know, there's two families that are warring, there's a matriarch, a patriarch, and then you go down, and you know, I mean, the funny thing is, my first TV credits ever were all my children, right? And so, um, and it was through Alicia Minshew, who played Kendall for years that I went to drama school with, and she so I had a mix of like series regulars. Alicia was on it, you know, a big soap star. Like, I had a real mix of talent, and it was just a great experience because we did it like curb your enthusiasm. It was beats, right? And it was improvised, it was improvised. We really, really valued. I don't know if you remember during the pandemic, but like even though we had all this time, time seemed more valuable to to ask people to memorize lines didn't feel like that was gonna work, right? To really schedule them for one hour. Let's get on Zoom and let's shoot this scene, right? And so we did that, and it was just how how long was each episode? 10 minutes, three scenes an episode, so like three to four minutes.

SPEAKER_00 35:26

We did 26 to 360 minutes of filmmaking go.

SPEAKER_01 35:31

We made a lot of content. I loved every scene we did, produced it with uh Spencer Garrett and Jeremy. Um oh, he's gonna kill me. Casting director Jeremy Gordon. Okay, Jeremy Gordon Spencer produced it with me. Spencer Garrett's an incredible actor. Um, we worked on Hawaii 5.0 together, and he was also in the show, and a lot of great, a lot of great actors in the show. But the you know, we donated every dollar. That was the best part was that we donated all proceeds to the SAG Foundation COVID-19 relief fund.

SPEAKER_00 36:03

Right. And and how did you monetize this? How how was money coming in?

SPEAKER_01 36:06

Donations, um, plays. We didn't make a ton of money, but it was a great feather in the cap. And one of the great things was that, you know, we called, you know, it was a union show, right? It was only a union show going on during the pandemic. Right. And, you know, we called all the agents. Well, Jeremy did, and they were like, hey, there's no money for you, there's no money for your actor. Are they in? Every single one of them said in. So it was just a really great time to be creative, be busy. Right. Without, I was crazy because I was not only writing and editing and doing it all, but you know, it was just a really it was just a wonderful time. Like, and it's a wonderful way to work. Right. You just give beats and it's basically multi-camera directing. Because you have everyone on screen, they're running it, you time it, and you're like, okay, guys, we need to get it down to this. You lose that line, you do this line. How about this joke, this and that? And then you just and it just keeps tightening. And we nailed it every time in an hour. And every episode we had like a major guest star, you know, like you know, any everyone from some guy from from Wings. Oh my god. Yeah. Uh the guy from Twin Peaks. Like, Spencer just kept bringing in incredible actors. Um, I can't remember all their names, but every episode we had a really major sort of like 90s star. Yeah. You know, thanks to Spencer. That's awesome. His contacts. Um, you know, yeah, it was really fun.

SPEAKER_00 37:31

Dude, that's incredible. I mean, it's just I mean, if anybody takes anything from this, it feels like the Jerry Ying story is to just just make something, dude. Just make stuff and doors open and keep making stuff. And when you feel inspired or compelled to do a thing, follow that inspiration, follow, follow that compulsion. Like just do be active in the pursuit of whatever is next. Just do. What okay? So, what what happens after quarantine? So the you so you wrap the series, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:59

So and then the world opens up. No, the world did not open up. We were trying to like pitch the show, and then next thing you know, NBC had the exact same thing. No idea if they got it from us or not, but it was it wasn't any good. Like they actually tried to really script it, and you know,

Producing Reality Checks And Getting Paid

SPEAKER_01 38:15

it just didn't come out good or whatever. That writer's room didn't work. Um so that kind of went down the tube, and but it was still just a great creative endeavor. Um, learned a lot, and uh, but after that I pushed everything into features, right? I took all the contacts I made through the film and leveraged it into features and spent a year kind of working in the wrong way, like just developing, you know, like basically saying yes, yes, I love this.

SPEAKER_00 38:42

What I just said you should do. Stopping and just thinking. Is that what you're saying?

SPEAKER_01 38:48

Well, making sure you understand that producing is a difficult life, you have to make sure you find ways to get paid to do it. Because time takes a lot of time to develop, right? You know, um, ideas, films, whether that you're starting from scratch or you're rewriting a script with a team, you get caught up because you're an artist and you believe in this writer or director, and be like, oh my God, yes, I want to be a part of this. Next thing you know, you're you're really spread thin. Right. You're on four or five projects, and then you kind of are like, none of them are paying you. Right. You know, you don't have a retainer, you don't have a producing fee on any of these, you're just trying to bolster the vision of the artist and then see where it goes. So kind of worked down that path for a while and then kind of pulled back and was like, all right, this is a horrible business model. I'm gonna go broke. Plus, it was the pandemic. Right. There was no acting money. Acting was there was no income coming in from that. So after that, basically it was like, all right, I'm gonna only work in ways where there's a real path towards making some money. Right. Which I still have failed miserably yet. Yeah, I was like, how's that going? No, it's not easy it's not easy no matter what. And you know, there's been some big films and brought in some real money to some projects, and it's hard. It's it's uh you gotta take your licks a little bit before you really figure out how to to make money. Right. Make a living, let's say. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:10

You know, uh, okay, so pandemic happened. Uh you're you're fo focusing on features, you're um just churning through what money you you had left. I think we all did that during the pandemic, to be honest.

SPEAKER_01 40:23

Um I was living off a lot of residuals. I got I got really lucky. I think I shot an a a pharma commercial for consentics just before the pandemic. There you go. And it's true, pharma pays yeah, yeah. Very well. Yeah. In in today's age, considering that it's very difficult to make a living, yeah. Um, you know, the middle age act the middle class actor's kind of been wiped out, that still really paid.

SPEAKER_00 40:47

Yeah, yeah. Okay, that's great. So what so what happened after features? What happened after the world opened back up and we all came back to the business and strikes happened and just everything's been rosy since?

SPEAKER_01 40:59

I kind of just went on, I mean, I I started working with

EP, Finance, And Packaging Projects

SPEAKER_01 41:05

the producers that I met at Sundance and working with them in different capacities and did a documentary in Bucharest, um, did a couple other features where I was also an actor in, and just was sort of gaining cutting my teeth, really putting myself out there as a producer.

SPEAKER_00 41:26

Right.

SPEAKER_01 41:26

Um and I also was at Sundance Again, met this tech fund, and then I partnered with them and was deploying out of their creative side. So I started getting my foot into like finance and so like executive producing? There was a lot of executive producing, like I brought money to you know, uh The Apprentice, got into some development, brought money to this our Naomi Watts feature called The Housewife. Um was just moving things around, kind of being a player in terms of like I have I know people with great scripts that need money, I know people with money starting to connect those dots.

SPEAKER_00 42:01

Right.

SPEAKER_01 42:02

Um and yeah, EPing. So while still producing, I think I also in that time made This Never Happened, which was a Mexican genre horror film. Or I'm sorry, it was a genre film we made in Mexico. Yeah, with a writer in Spanish? No, it's in no it's in English.

SPEAKER_00 42:19

Okay, great.

SPEAKER_01 42:20

It's in English, but it was shot in Mexico, but with young Mexican stars. It was with a writer I met at Austin. So we developed that. That sounds awesome. Yeah, that was like a targeted let's he had a relationship and I had a relationship with Mar Vista. So we're like, let's pull this script out and try to sell it to them. They said no on it, right? They passed on it, we like rewrote it, and you know, and uh, but then the pandemic came and they needed a third film, and so they greenlit ours. Wow, yeah, and then they shot it in Mexico. That's I didn't make it, but right uh they already had a team down in Mexico to make it a production company, and yeah, so I just took my credit and a production fee on that.

SPEAKER_00 42:56

Yeah, great, that's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 42:57

So it was those type of things, like trying to figure out different ways of making films.

SPEAKER_00 43:01

Okay, great. So uh we've gotten to the time, Jerry, that I wanted to talk

The Future Of Media Gets Democratized

SPEAKER_00 43:05

about the thing. What is the future of media? What is the future of the film industry?

SPEAKER_01 43:11

I was just having this conversation last night. Um I think it's an exciting time. I do too. I think it's a really exciting time. I think story independent features, I think creators, content creators, uh it's really democratized now. I think the the studio system, the original way that everything was set up here is kind of broken down. And now there's no there's like two studios now, or maybe three. Yeah, it's gotten a little crazy, but I think anyone has an opportunity to to be something, to create a media company. Right. Um, so that's exciting. I also think these ten pole Marvel, I think that's all kind of gone away a little bit. And like you can look at the Oscar nominees from this year, it's a lot of original storytelling.

SPEAKER_00 44:00

Yeah, sinners.

SPEAKER_01 44:00

Um Sinners. Oh my god. Right.

SPEAKER_00 44:02

Like I I mean, you know what I mean? It's like Ryan Kugler is that it's that's incredible. That's an incredible story. That's like he delivered for the studios and then he's like, now I'm gonna make it. And the ideal he has. I think he reconfits.

SPEAKER_01 44:13

I mean, all of that stuff that they're doing. Um, it's it's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_00 44:17

Yeah. Yeah. Okay, great. I mean, I I uh it's it's interesting, like everything that you're saying, I feel is is like such a like basically it's like live an active creative pursuit style life and like say yes to opportunities and like things happen.

SPEAKER_01 44:38

Things happen, you know, things happen, and you know, but it's also really good to, you know, it's great to say yes, but it's also great to have some sort of plan, you know what I mean? And I think a lot of what I did was very a lot of curiosity, a lot of enthusiasm, and just launched into things, right? But no real big plan, um, but also no idea of what a plan would be. Like what you know, it's just a creative. I think you know, I think creatives that start understanding business becomes also a very powerful combination. Right. More it's I think that's a lot more powerful than say a business person trying to get into the creative world. Of course.

SPEAKER_00 45:18

Well, that's why we're we're just complaining about the studios, that's what's been happening in the last 30 years.

SPEAKER_01 45:22

But you know, creatives are, you know, uh, you know, they they've spent a lot of their lives dreaming, working with other creatives, collaborating. Right. But there definitely has to be an understanding of the business side, you know, and that's kind of the most important part. Does it mean that you have a plan now? Um no.

SPEAKER_00 45:42

Do you have one? Yeah. That can borrow. I mean, my plan, yeah, if you want me, I'll spell it out right here. Like, my plan is I'm asking

Building A Plan And Knowing Your Value

SPEAKER_00 45:50

the question right now, right? Like, by virtue of having this podcast sitting down here with you, my goal is like, I want to take my experience of being a commercial actor and improviser and having the comfort of talking into microphones to having conversations with people, being on camera, use that experience to leverage getting more work as a cinematographer. Because I know I'm I'm playing ketchup, right? Like I decided to become a cinematographer in earnest at 35 years old, right? After being a hobbyist for 10 years, right? So everybody else that I'm competing with just came out of AFI. They're 25 and they're incredible shooters, right? So I'm asking the question: if I'm presenting myself as a presenter and I am trying to build a media company around the idea of me being a shooter, will it help me shoot more films? Will it help me use my experience as an actor, as a storyteller, as a writer and director is how you know me? All of those things coincide in coming together to be the best version of a cinematographer that I can be. Will all of this uh extra content creation fuel and feed? I think it will. I mean, that is a plan.

SPEAKER_01 47:06

It is a plan. That is a very specific plan. Yes. And you have a very specific goal. So only good things can come from that.

SPEAKER_00 47:12

Yeah, I hope so.

SPEAKER_01 47:13

Tell my wife that only good things can come from that. She's also the producer, so thank you. She's waving, she's politely waving. But like that's a very specific plan. And I think producing, it's, you know, I'm for certain gonna be getting involved again at some point in terms of like taking on projects. And I always have to fight against it, but you know, each film is like its own startup, you know, yeah, and that in itself is not a plan. That's what I what I bring to the table and the value I add and maybe financing, but the to have a plan beyond that, like how does it all connect? Right, you know, and it's a little more difficult as a producer because you do so many different things. So it's like I just want to scale.

SPEAKER_00 47:55

I still don't know what uh being a producer means technically. There's like 900 different ways of being a producer. I was just listening to something that Jason Bloom was was saying, and you know the guy who created Blumhouse, right? Blumhouse. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he's like pretty good at making movies.

SPEAKER_01 48:09

Yeah, he's just saying producers, like just to get into the PGA, like when you start having to go through the checkbox of what you do, like they're all different jobs. You have so many different jobs.

SPEAKER_00 48:17

Well, that's why there's like 900 different producing credits on stuff. You're like, what is an executive producer? What's a co-producer? What's a co-executive producer?

SPEAKER_01 48:25

What what it's really whatever negotiated, but at the end of the day, it's a meritocracy. On set, you know who the lead producers are, right? Or they've brought incredible value at the at the top or at the back end, whatever it is. But I mean, you're dealing with creatives, you're dealing with business, finance people, investors, you're dealing with talent, you're dealing with a lot of situations that can go south constantly. Right. And then you have to make the film, you know, and then you have to bring in the partners. Like you are really a founder, you know, so and you have to do a lot of different things. You're a founder of a startup, you're a founder of a startup, and you likely have three startups going at the same time. Right. That are paying you. Yeah. That's you know, that's the goal is to figure out how, you know, by the time you're, you know, like all of a sudden, like I'm you have a retainer, you have a producing fee, but still the amount of time and effort put into making futures, you know, the payoff is really not there. The payoff is, you know, hopefully a successful film.

SPEAKER_00 49:29

Of course. I was actually, I was uh, I think it was my mom that I was talking to the other day because we were talking about the idea of understanding as a freelance person, she's an art, she's an artist. Um, and she would set prices for paintings or commissions or whatever. And I remember or she was talking to me about the idea of like understanding how you set a price for something like that. And this is sort of what you're talking about, which is like the idea is like, well, the person asking for the commission wants the the price that it costs per hour to make that painting, to make that commission. Right. But the thing that you actually have to build in is the hundreds, it's the thousands of hours that you've already put into the craft to be able to get on that person's commission radar. And so you got to do back pay. So it's like it's not just you're not just paying me $50 an hour to paint this painting. Right. You're also paying me for the all of the money or for at least a slice of the time to get to the space to be able to exactly have to do that.

SPEAKER_01 50:29

You're trying to figure out what your value is, and then you have to have the courage to ask for it. It is such a difficult thing to do. It's not easy, and it's not easy for artists to make that happen. You know, everyone's very sheepish in the beginning, like I'm just so happy to be here and working. And then at some point, you have to really understand your value, and then you have to ask for it. Right. And then you have to continue on and like understand beyond that what is your value on the back end. You have to negotiate all sorts of things. It's it's a it's a lot, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:02

It's a lot, you just the only way to do it is just do it. Of course. I mean, it's just learning as much as you can whenever you can. But I'm still always gonna want to make

Where To Find Jerry And Wrap

SPEAKER_00 51:10

films, yeah, tell stories. Yeah, I understand that. Yeah, same. Okay, guys, I think we're getting pretty close to the end here. Jerry, do you want to tell the people where they can find you? What's uh where can people get a hold of you if they need to hire you? Or uh I think you can find me on my Instagram, okay, Jerry Ying. Um okay. I think that's a great way to get a hold of Jerry. That's how I get a hold of him. Find me walking on the case. My phone calls, I gotta just DM and you know what I mean. He does he has a puppy now, so if you need to walk a dog in Las Vilas somewhere, do not get a puppy. Okay, well, I would say the opposite of that. I think that you're learning the lessons that you need to learn right now, Jerry, through the puppy. Sometimes you just gotta say no. That really should that's the other. Actually, that is a really good point. Is like, yes, we were just saying earlier, yes, and yes is a very powerful word. And I no no, yeah, and I am currently trying to understand the power of no myself. That's its own podcast. It is its own podcast. Okay, guys, this has been film shit. This is Jerry Ying. Thank you so much for sticking around. Uh, once again, if you do like what we're doing, please like, subscribe, leave us a comment. It really helps, all that sort of stuff. I am Nate K would appreciate you guys sticking around. Have a good one. Thanks for having me. Thank you, Jerry.