Mekenna Melvin Explains How Success Failed To Heal Her

The entertainment industry loves a clean label it can sell. Real artists are messier than that, and that mess is often where the best work comes from.

I’m Nate Caywood, a Los Angeles cinematographer, and I sit down with actor, writer, dancer, choreographer, and musician McKenna Melvin for a raw conversation about what it actually costs to build a life in Hollywood. McKenna takes us from Saratoga to New York conservatory training, then into the early Los Angeles grind: self-submits, student films that teach her how sets really work, casting workshops, SAG vouchers, and the moment a one-word audition turns into Chuck and a fandom she never saw coming.

From there we get into the stuff people usually skip: dyslexia, ADHD, CPTSD, intrusive thoughts, and how creativity can be both a career path and a nervous-system tool. We talk streaming residuals, the post-COVID industry shift, the quiet shame of survival jobs, and the bigger ethical question behind every budget meeting: when producers “minimize labor costs,” who is actually being minimized?

McKenna also shares what it looks like to renegotiate a dream, fall back in love with process, and build safer, more human work environments. If you’ve felt behind, stuck, or forced to choose one identity, this one will land.

Subscribe for more honest film industry conversations, share this with a creative friend who needs it, and leave a review telling us what you’re making next.

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hey everyone, how's it going? My name is Nate Kwood. Uh I'm a Los Angeles-based cinematographer, and this is Film Shit, a podcast where I sit down with a working professional in the TV and film industry. I ask him where they came from, what exactly it is that they do, and what the future of the industry looks like. Today I am incredibly excited to have our next guest. Um, I'm inspired by you constantly. Uh, you are an actor, you are a writer, you are a dancer, you are a choreographer, you are a musician, you are an overall creative person. I am so grateful that you are here at McKenna Melvin. Welcome.

unknown 0:34

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 0:35

Yeah, of course. Oh how does it feel?

SPEAKER_02 0:38

Yeah, that to say all those labels feels like something I'm allowing myself to accept to be true about myself. Yeah, that's great. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 0:47

It is sometimes difficult, I think, specifically because of how the industry operates, is to give ourselves the grace to just be artists. Yeah. And that there doesn't have to be a single medium or discipline.

SPEAKER_02 0:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 0:58

And uh, but the industry's not interested in that. They're like, but how can I sell you?

SPEAKER_02 1:02

100%. And that feels like a serious heart of my whole moment of where I'm at right now. Right. Feel. I don't know if we'd like to jump into that. We jump into everything. I mean, I mean This is my first podcast. Everybody, okay. Welcome.

SPEAKER_00 1:17

How incredible is this? I'm so grateful that you're here with us. Um

Growing Up In Saratoga

SPEAKER_00 1:20

okay, so we'll just make it easy. So the first thing is like, where are you from?

SPEAKER_02 1:23

I am from Saratoga, California.

SPEAKER_00 1:26

Okay, and what's that close to?

SPEAKER_02 1:27

That is close to San Jose, California. Okay. Which is, or like Santa Cruz is the beach town.

SPEAKER_00 1:34

I love Santa Cruz.

SPEAKER_02 1:35

I know Redwood Forest with an ocean view. You cannot beat it. I took it for granted. I did not understand what beauty I had until I left.

SPEAKER_00 1:45

Did you cruise the uh boardwalk as a kid? Was that like a thing that you would do, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:49

You know, we would go a couple times a summer, but so much of my childhood was like very much in a like little suburb where we had this neighborhood, and in the middle was a pool, and anyone who was part of my neighborhood went to this pool and we were all on the same swim team. And so so much of my childhood was like just living and playing with my friends and on bikes and that sounds um idyllic and bougie at the same time, was it?

SPEAKER_00 2:17

I think it is.

SPEAKER_02 2:18

Yeah, I think maybe, yeah. Like we had a directory where we could like call. Like I knew everybody who lived in my neighborhood. We could like call their parents or it was a special way to grow up for sure.

SPEAKER_00 2:32

Was there a gate at the front of this community? Okay, yeah, because I was like, dang, that sounds it Yeah, it is.

SPEAKER_02 2:40

I mean, it is interesting, like where I'm from in the Bay Area, which is also kind of a journey to be from there. Um, you know, it was one thing and then the dot-com boom came, and then everything else changed. So at one point for sure, the whole area became like a very wealthy area.

SPEAKER_04 2:57

Right.

SPEAKER_02 2:58

And I watched like these different um waves, I guess. Like there would be a boom and there'd be people who would move in, and like their dad would be on like I don't even know what people do in the dot com world, but something like that. And then there would be a crash and then they would go. Right. And then there would be like another wave. But my parents were public school teachers, so oh wow, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:18

So not riding the dot coming. Okay, great.

SPEAKER_02 3:21

Yeah, the house that my parents have in Saratoga was like that neighborhood was my dad's dream neighborhood to be able to get into when he was a kid when they moved to Campbell, California, which is another part of Dang.

SPEAKER_00 3:32

So this is like just this has been a long manifestation of your dad getting to the spot. That's incredible.

SPEAKER_02 3:38

So, but and it was a great looking back now, I can see how lucky I was to have that. But so most of my summers were there, not at the beach. Gotcha. Although I wish I would have spent more time at the beach.

SPEAKER_00 3:49

Well, you know, hindsight. It's like I I feel the same way as like as a kid, you know what I mean? There's like you like look back and you're like, why was I busy doing that or whatever when I could have been doing fill in the blank? And it's like it doesn't matter. We were just being kids.

SPEAKER_02 4:01

Just no time. And I was like a busy kid, like soccer overlapped with volleyball, which overlapped with basketball, which overlapped with softball, which overlapped with simming, then come back to soccer.

SPEAKER_03 4:14

Right.

SPEAKER_02 4:14

And then during that, I was like, I would do a play if I could do a play. Or so I was like, and that was not inherently like my parents pushing me, like they definitely gave me the options. We had one rule. If you sign up for it, you have to finish the season, and the next year you don't have to do if you don't want to.

SPEAKER_00 4:32

That's a great rule, parents.

SPEAKER_02 4:35

And so I but I liked I I have always wanted to do a million things.

SPEAKER_00 4:41

Yeah. Um it's interesting. I have, I feel, I've feel like I had a very similar childhood, to be honest, though, just in the middle of nowhere, Wisconsin. But it was like really um idyllic and rural, and like everybody knew everybody, and we rode BMX bikes everywhere, and we had uh uh we had a directory as well, but we just called it a phone book, and it was just our hometown. And so we could call anybody. Um and I also did the same thing, which was like every I played every sport and did every play and musical that existed because they were yeah, yeah, I had 120 people or maybe 125 in my graduating class in high school. So it was like yeah, if you're in middle school, you just do all the you have to do everything, otherwise they can't feel the team, you know?

SPEAKER_02 5:23

Yeah, that's interesting. The way when you just said it, it is like my little neighborhood was almost like a small town within a big city.

Dyslexia, Theater, And Feeling Different

SPEAKER_04 5:30

Right.

SPEAKER_02 5:30

Um, because the high school I went to, so I would I went to a public school and then I got diagnosed with dyslexia, and a few things happened and they didn't have the program that I needed. So then I went into a Catholic school because they had the program that would help me.

SPEAKER_04 5:47

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_02 5:47

Very tiny, like 32 kids that we were there the whole time. And then I go to a high school um with 4,000 kids. Like there was 820 in my graduating class, so it was a total like shift of culture for me. Um and that's also where my mom taught theater, which is like a big part of all this. So my mom was a theater teacher my whole life. So I grew up literally like in her theater. I don't even remember the first time I was on stage. I have photos of it, but it's like a story somebody told me.

SPEAKER_04 6:19

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 6:20

Um, so my whole life was kind of like, yeah, in this world of performing and creating. And I watched my mom like create these huge worlds. And yes, it's always just kind of been there.

SPEAKER_00 6:34

That's super cool. So so you knew from a very young age that you were like, I'm gonna, I'm an actor already. You weren't gonna be an actor, you're like, I am an actor.

SPEAKER_02 6:42

That's a great question. I think I have spent most of my life being very uh like kind of insecure about like who and what I'm supposed to be. So I don't think I thought about it uh in like confidence like that, but I knew that it was just a part of my life. And to be honest, there was a part where I was like, Mom, I want to be an actress on TV. And she was she would say, like, when you're 18, you can make those decisions.

SPEAKER_01 7:11

Right.

SPEAKER_02 7:11

And so like I one time, like my dad, who on the other side was like, No, we gotta, we're gonna like get you in there. He found like a Wienerschnitzel commercial, is what it was. We're like, don't tell mom that you're gonna audition for this kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00 7:25

This is hilarious to me. It's like, wow, look at how nefarious you and your dad are thinking you do an audition.

SPEAKER_02 7:31

And then I got a call back, and then that was like, uh oh, what's gonna happen? And then, yeah, I don't know if I answered your original question, but was it something I knew? It was very much okay. I don't know at what point I was like really aware of this, but I th I knew that when I was on stage, I felt very at home and I felt like performing like made a lot of sense to me. And I also I think because of like some of the pieces of my childhood, I lived in a lot of like disassociation. So I had this dream about my life and where it was gonna go. And if I could just get to Hollywood and be a famous actress and win an Academy Award, then I would be picked, chosen, and loved, and everything would be okay.

SPEAKER_00 8:23

Yeah, I mean, that sounds like a perfectly reasonable plan.

SPEAKER_02 8:27

And it turns out that that's a trauma response, right?

SPEAKER_00 8:31

Right. Okay, well, let's actually let's go back to that a little bit, right? Because like I'm curious, like one of the reasons why I wanted to sit down with people is to understand everybody's sort of genesis and to realize that nobody's path is the same and that we all find ourselves in different ways to getting to wherever we are. And so when you were a kid, you were obviously always performing, you were always on stage by virtue of your mother having a stage for you to be on, or being around it in the backstage.

SPEAKER_02 8:57

Like I remember she did um the Scottish play, which is a word we're not supposed to say. That's some theater lore. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sure. Yeah, yeah. And like there's witches in it, and they we would do this like cool makeup where they like covered one of the girls' eyes, and I would just be obsessed. Like, I wanted to go to every single performance. I wanted to everything about the creation of a different world, yeah, excited me. So I think that is what I'm getting at. It wasn't necessarily that I don't think being an actress was the truest expression of my entire creative being.

SPEAKER_04 9:28

Right.

SPEAKER_02 9:29

But I was like, this is the only w place that I see in the world that you can do that. I didn't know how to honestly do what my mom was doing because we didn't have like examples of that in the industry, at least I didn't. It seemed like you were this or you were that, and there wasn't really any women directors or you know, right.

SPEAKER_00 9:48

Okay, so when when that was happening and you were like growing up under this the creation of these like incredible worlds that your mother is making, like, did you feel like um you you obviously knew that you wanted to do that? Did you ever feel pressure from your mom to do that? Or did you just naturally slide into being like, I just see this expression, I think it's incredible, I like the building of these universes. I can't wait to do that, or is it sort of like, well, I guess I'm supposed to do this?

SPEAKER_02 10:22

It was definitely my choice. I don't think there was there wasn't she never really pushed me. Um, but what she did do, and I am so kind of grateful for this, is that she I historically there's a part of me that is a little like uh scared of the world, you know what I mean? To like go out and do the thing. Like I'm constantly like wrestling, am I big or am I small? And I go. And so what my mom did is she she would say and this is also I think her gift as a teacher and a and uh a director and a theater teacher, all the

New York Conservatory First Big Leap

SPEAKER_02 11:00

things, is she saw what was what was inside of me and what I wanted, and then she encouraged me. So like the best example of this maybe early on would be the decision to go to the college that I went to, which wasn't is an it's an acting conservatory. I went to the American Academy of Dramatic Arts in New York.

SPEAKER_00 11:17

In New York, okay, great.

SPEAKER_02 11:19

And um I really wanted to have four-year like I thought that having going to school and having like a four-year university degree was like very, very important.

SPEAKER_04 11:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 11:31

A lot of that had to do with the fact that I had a learning disability. So feeling like I was not as smart as everyone else, or there was like something wrong with me, it felt like I I wanted to do that and be fast-tracked.

SPEAKER_03 11:41

Right.

SPEAKER_02 11:41

And I didn't want to be different, like I was so afraid of being different, and I'm still afraid of being different, but I'm also like, hang girl, you're fucking weird, you're neurodivergent, you got all this stuff, like just own it. Yeah, um, but at that time I didn't want to. And um, I mean, it's a bit of a longer story, but because of kind of like the neurodivergent stuff, which affected my ability to get like an SAT score that I wanted, I qualified to have for my SATs, to have um like untimed SATs and like have a reader for me. Right. But my for better or worse was like, well, I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna be like everybody else, you know. So I kind of like shot myself in the foot a little bit for my SAT scores. And so I would audition for the all these colleges, and like I would get into some of the program, like the programs would want me, but then the college would be like, Oh, you gotta wait till next year to come back and all this stuff.

SPEAKER_04 12:33

Right.

SPEAKER_02 12:33

And my mom, what she did is she was like, There's this acting conservatory in New York, and we came to LA to do all the auditions for like USC, UCLA, all the things, and she just signed she signed me up for it without like me saying yes, but like having a two-year degree didn't feel like it would be whatever that thing I was talking about before. And and then I went. And I remember even like the audition felt so much different than everything else. It was actually the perfect place for me because it wasn't this big place that I would have been overwhelmed with, that I would have been overstimulated by. It was like a small school where the focus was about being an artist. And that is so it's not that my mom was like making these decisions for me, but she was oftentimes pushing me towards the thing I was afraid to do and would see the like avenue that was right for me.

SPEAKER_00 13:28

And uh it was it seemed like it was probably a good move.

SPEAKER_02 13:32

It was a good move, yeah. I mean, go showing up to New York City at 18 when I'd never I'd only moved one time, and that was from one bedroom to the other bedroom when my sister moved out, so that was a lot, yeah, but it was like what a life experience.

SPEAKER_00 13:49

Yeah, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_02 13:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:50

Okay, let's go back a little bit. Sure. So you're you're acting, you're you're like um you're performing regularly throughout your youth. Yes. And you sort of um accept that you want to be an actress or actor on TV at some point in time in that. And so once that happens, like that that age creates this desire. Like, do are you like full bore? Are you like, I am doing this thing?

SPEAKER_02 14:26

I like I think it it was always this thing that I wanted, but I don't think it was super fully clear because also there was all these other loves. Like acting wasn't the only thing I loved. I had my high school experience was so special. Like we had this specific little pocket in time in this public school in San Jose that had this incredible program. And so I would be in a dance, like I would be in this dance program where it wasn't just like you're learning to dance, it was like if you could create anything you wanted in the world, what would it be? Choose a a style, uh, a piece of music, whatever it is. So I was getting to create that, and everything kind of talked to each other. So dance would be like the mu the music I was learning in choir. I would then like bring those together. And then what I was learning in history, um, I would then put that into my thematic. And then there was drama too. So it was always like this bigger, fuller picture of what I wanted.

SPEAKER_03 15:25

Right.

SPEAKER_02 15:26

And there was a version of me that was gonna follow the dance route, and I was gonna go to college and do a dance program. But at that time, like, so you think you can dance and stuff hadn't existed. So I didn't know that there was like a career that could happen in time in like any version of longevity.

SPEAKER_03 15:43

Right.

SPEAKER_02 15:43

So it felt like the avenue that was right for me was acting because as a woman, you could go be an actress again, then you win the Academy Award, you're picked, chosen, and loved, and then they'll let you do stuff.

SPEAKER_04 15:54

Right.

SPEAKER_02 15:54

Right? Like we're in a totally different paradigm now because so many people have like keep hitting this, it's my first podcast remember. It's like so many people have kind of like helped us break that paradigm. But I think if I'm trying to put myself back in that headspace, like that was more what I was thinking. Yeah, and again, I was so like painfully insecure. Like the whole time, it was a lot of my leaning on the bravery I wanted, but my mom and my dad would really like help me.

SPEAKER_00 16:25

At 18 years old, yes, you moved to New York, sure does it. You start studying at Ada.

SPEAKER_02 16:30

And I moved in to the New Yorker Hotel, which I think is a fun hat.

SPEAKER_00 16:34

Whoa!

SPEAKER_02 16:35

It was living in a working hotel.

SPEAKER_00 16:37

Okay, wait, why why was that the choice?

SPEAKER_02 16:39

Um, because that's where educational student housing was. So New York City, like they're you're not building new places. So if the school didn't have at the time, I think it does now, but at the time it didn't have housing for students. Right. So you kind of were on your own to find housing, but there was different versions of like some hotels would rent floors to colleges. So my whole floor was my people from my school. Right. And then underneath was another school. Right. But then we were also in living in a working hotel. So like I could order room service if I wanted to. And there was like the TikTok diner downstairs that I would get like cheese fries. My favorite was it was really close to Madison Square Garden. Sure. So Westminster, the dog show was happening. Yeah. And they had all the dogs at our hotel. So the fanciest dogs on the planet were all at the hotel. And I was like, Heaven! But you can't touch them. Like they're you're not supposed to touch them. But I would just be in the elevator and be like, oh my God, that is the winning bulldog.

SPEAKER_00 17:39

That is incredible. It was a really I mean that's dope. I mean, man, that sounds that sounds awesome.

SPEAKER_02 17:45

It was a it was a really, really cool uh it was just like night and day from what I had experienced. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 17:53

Which is important. I I think even just the experience of going to live somewhere else and being so far away from home and just having to do college that way is like so important for people to just be like, well, I'm I'm getting out of my comfort zone. My but like you gotta figure it out.

SPEAKER_02 18:07

And I had to figure it out. Like I went back to New York, whatever, in the last like decade or whatever, and you can GPS how to get places in the trains and stuff. That didn't exist, okay? So I had to sit with the little thing, be like, okay, I'm gonna get on this train, and I think that train's gonna be here. And if the train doesn't show up, nobody's there's no app to tell you. It was so uh it was it was just different, but also it made me it created so much of the adult I would then become, you know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_00 18:36

Yeah, of course. Yeah, I do know what you're saying. That so, okay, so you're there and you take you you're in class for two years.

SPEAKER_02 18:42

I've been class for two years, yes.

SPEAKER_00 18:44

Okay, great. And did you do any uh productions while you were there that were like the you're like, oh man, this is such a great production of?

SPEAKER_02 18:51

Uh at the school itself. Um okay, I think well at my exam play, I got the lead in the marriage of Bet and Boo.

SPEAKER_04 19:00

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 19:01

And if my dad were here talking about it, he would be like, it was the greatest thing. At the end there was a standing ovation. But my experience of it was like, I don't know. I always I know that it was a successful show and I had so much fun doing it. Yeah, sometimes it's hard for me to take that piece in. But I would say that was like was the final show that we did. I got the lead and I I loved that show. That's awesome. I think that's also the last theater that I've done, which is so wild to me because so much of the beginning of my life was always on a theater stage, and then you know, I kind of shifted into a different medium.

SPEAKER_00 19:42

Right.

SPEAKER_02 19:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:43

But the medium was because of the acceptance and the adulation of the industry that would allow you to then do the things that you wanted to do creatively. Because you you've said that a number of times, right? Like, why TV? Like why film besides the Oscar.

SPEAKER_02 19:57

You know, this is all I'm unpacking all this in therapy right now, but but I think see, like that's another thing too. I don't know how like conscious I was of it then.

SPEAKER_04 20:05

Right.

SPEAKER_02 20:05

Um, because to take it even back, like, yes, I yes, I grew up with this mom who was a drama teacher and all of these things. And yes, I wanted to be that, but it wasn't just that. Like what I'm realizing for me as a person is that my creativity was a place that I could make sense of the world and my feelings.

SPEAKER_04 20:28

Right.

SPEAKER_02 20:28

And so, like, I think I don't have the clearest answer of why film and TV, but I have a lot of ideas of why. And one of them would be like, I would have these like big, huge emotions and not really know how or what or the context of them. And then I would watch some like intense thing like Sophie's Choice and Sea Merrill Street, like devastated and crying, and I'd be like, that is how I'm feeling, you know what I mean? And then I would go into my room as a little kid and then like reenact whatever big emotions it was, and like literally watch myself in the mirror, and it was like some place that I could have this release, like uh having art was a place for me to emotionally release and like I said, make sense, especially as like a kid with like a neurodivergent thing when everything else, like the way other people are processing things, I'm not always processing them. So I'm creating stories and narratives, and also like I couldn't spell, obviously. I'm dyslexic. And so for me to be able to do that, mean my mom would create songs for me to remember. So I was always using art to help me survive in society.

SPEAKER_00 21:32

Okay, you gotta sing a song. You gotta give me one of the songs just for one word. You can't remember my spelling test.

SPEAKER_02 21:41

But I still use it today. Like this is like this would be an embarrassing thing. Like, uh, like, so I will have intrusive thoughts a lot because of all the things. And so sometimes when I'm in a place where I'm having intrusive thoughts, I like sing this little song that's like, just because you think it doesn't make it true, just because you think it doesn't make it true. It's true just because you think it doesn't make it true, intrusive thoughts, and then I dance around my living room like a crazy person, yeah, and then it's out of my system. That sounds incredible. That is used to be something so embarrassing to me about my personality. But that part of my personality, like I think that is the thing that is cool about theater, is you can be weird like that, and there's a space for it, you know?

SPEAKER_04 22:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:24

Now, after all the stuff I've the work I'm doing on myself and understanding myself, I'm like, oh, that's your ADHD. So that's cool. That's part of the way you do things.

SPEAKER_04 22:33

Right.

SPEAKER_02 22:33

But even to like self-regulate, I am using art. I am dancing in my living room. Like I had a week this week that was difficult, and I got a little dysregulated, and I was like, put on every sad song you can think about and just dance until it's out of your system.

SPEAKER_00 22:47

Right.

SPEAKER_02 22:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:49

That sounds great.

SPEAKER_02 22:49

Thanks.

SPEAKER_00 22:50

That sounds incredible. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:51

I mean, it's interesting because it's like so it was about like wanting the career. Yeah. But the career was like I think it was there was this element like that I thought it would heal all the things. Like I wouldn't be the weird kid who was masking to be accepted, or like the boy I liked would like me. But like I, you know, and then when I got to a I mean I didn't win an Academy Award, but I did yet. Um but my career, I did have success.

SPEAKER_04 23:28

Right.

SPEAKER_02 23:28

And then when I had that version of success, and I a lot of people say that, it was like it didn't heal anything. In fact, it brought up everything.

SPEAKER_00 23:38

Right. Interesting. You know?

Los Angeles Hustle And Learning Sets

SPEAKER_00 23:40

Okay, let's jump forward. We're gonna go to it. Okay, so you graduate uh at like 20 years old, I would guess, right?

SPEAKER_02 23:49

Yeah, because I turned I turned 21 in Los Angeles.

SPEAKER_00 23:53

Okay, you turned 21 in Los Angeles. So you moved to LA, you live in LA now. Yes. You're 21 and you're doing actory stuff.

SPEAKER_02 23:59

I am going to uh Sam French and I am looking at a book that has every I buy a book that says like agents and managers in Los Angeles, and I take my acting headshot with my resume that's black and white, and I write a cover letter and I send it to every single place I could possibly go, which I didn't realize wasn't like a cool thing to do. I just didn't know how to do it. Right. And I was working at a restaurant. Uh I was working at the counter. I opened the first counter in Santa Monica.

SPEAKER_00 24:28

Oh, okay. Yeah, I was just gonna ask this like a the hamburger joint, or you can choose everything that you want.

SPEAKER_02 24:33

You can. I was one of their in the very beginning before they even franchised and stuff. So that's what I was doing. And I was living in Santa or originally I was living in a house with four girls. Me and my high school girlfriend were like sharing a bed, literally. Um yeah, and I was trying to find an agent. I was trying to figure it out. I had a friend from acting school who was out here and he was in movies and like he had started like booking some stuff. And so he was helpful in that in some ways. Um, but I will say from that little like push I put out into the world, I did get a couple of meetings. I didn't get anything that happened, or I didn't get signed or anything like that. Um and then I started like submitting myself on whatever the websites were, and I found myself in this like little Chapman hole for a minute, like Chapman University.

SPEAKER_04 25:22

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:23

And I did like, I can't even think about like 10 or something Chapman films within a two-year period. And I have to say that that was I it was like going to film school a second time. Like, I'm so actually grateful for that. I learned everything about what it meant to be on a on a set. I didn't go there, but I'm gonna plug Chapman. It was like such a great experience. Like, okay, this is a CSAN, this is your mark, this is where you do, this is everything.

SPEAKER_00 25:47

Yeah, totally different acting than just like acting, acting.

SPEAKER_02 25:50

Yeah, and I got like the real picture of everything. And also, too, I think back at that time, some of my favorite like characters I was able to play. Yeah. Because, you know, like kids are trying things. We're all just trying things.

SPEAKER_04 26:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:03

And um, yeah, so I did that, and then I was in this like catch 22 for a long time about like how to get my SAG card. Oh, wait, no, before that I was doing, which is controversial, but I was doing like casting director workshops that we now I don't think that's controversial at all.

SPEAKER_00 26:22

That was a totally different time. Yeah, we all did them to different levels of success. Like my buddy uh Echo, who was on here, the very first podcast that we did, got his agent that got him a network TV show from so it's like there's like this perspective where culture now in Los Angeles as actors look back on that as like a pay-for-play scheme. And it was like, no, no, that was actually, even though not everybody got opportunity, if you could show up and you had the goods, somebody could see that they would make money off of you. Yes. And that was how this town works.

SPEAKER_02 26:52

Honestly, so much of like it, I this is how I looked at it. I would um I would like look at the like uh shows that were on, and I'd figure out who the casting directors were that would like I felt like oh, I would make sense on that show or whatever. And then when I would see that they would have a workshop, I would target that workshop.

SPEAKER_00 27:12

Yeah. And um And you would do this just all on your own from your own brain.

SPEAKER_02 27:16

Like you didn't have like a you weren't at like no I do I fill in the blank famous acting school here in LA. I have my whole life I've had to figure out how to do things differently. Yeah, like the normal path was never gonna be my path. Um yeah, so I would do that, and then I got my man, actually the casting director, one of the casting directors who would later cast me or be part of the team that would cast me in Chuck, which is was a big show for me. I met, I ri he originally met me there years later. I think he had like saved it, is my understanding. And then I also met my first manager in a casting director workshop. And she was sending me out, but I wasn't SAG yet, and I wasn't getting the job to like Taft Heartley me.

SPEAKER_04 28:01

Right.

SPEAKER_02 28:02

So I started to do uh background work, and I would just hustle and do background work and then be like, please can you give me a voucher? Please can you give me a voucher? And I finally got the vouchers. I got two vouchers for being in the background of an entourage that you can actually see a clip of me, which felt like very exciting. Yeah, of course. Um and then my last voucher was to be a stand-in for a 12-year-old boy. And great, kids. Thank you. Uh and then I was the right size. And yeah, and then I was eligible, and so then that kind of did open things up for me.

SPEAKER_00 28:39

Right.

SPEAKER_02 28:39

Um

SAG Vouchers Workshops And First Wins

SPEAKER_02 28:40

yeah, and then I booked my first TV job.

SPEAKER_00 28:42

What was the first TV job?

SPEAKER_02 28:44

My first TV job was on a show called Lie to Me. And it my scene was with Tim Roth, and that felt like wow, crazy.

SPEAKER_00 28:53

That's incredible. Yeah, it was was it amazing?

SPEAKER_02 28:56

It was yeah, it was really amazing. I I really I haven't thought about that job in so long. It was really um, it was like confidence boosting, I think I can say because I was very nervous, but I was like, no, I've I know what I'm doing. I've been on a bunch of sets, and um I felt really good and in the pocket. And I remember he said afterwards he was like, he said something really complimentary and was like, I can't wait to see like where you go. And so it was all around a really, really great experience.

SPEAKER_00 29:27

That's awesome. That's really awesome. Okay, so you you kick it with Tim Roth.

SPEAKER_02 29:32

I mean, yeah, we have a scene together.

SPEAKER_00 29:33

Yeah, on set, y'all kicking it.

SPEAKER_02 29:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:36

Um then what happens, right? So you're starting to work, like it's happening. Yeah, you were hustling, you were putting in the time, you're doing the ground.

SPEAKER_02 29:43

I'm getting like co-stars, guest stars. Um, I'm working at the restaurant. Yeah. Um, and then there was a day that I remember I got like a few auditions. I had like three or something that day, and two of them were like big, meaty guest stars that would have like lots of dialogue and stuff. And then I had a one-word co-star, and the word was um mom, or was it dad? Now I'm forgetting. This is also part of the story. I think it was mom. Yeah, it was mom. Oh gosh. And anyway, it was one word and then uh, and that was for Chuck. And I remember this is also like if you're not from Los Angeles, yeah, like if you have an audition in Santa Monica, and then you have to be to like Studio City, like this is two hours, depending upon the time. Yeah, and you're just like in your car going back and forth, and again, no GPS. So what I had was a map quest that I had printed out, and I'd have all my little things right here. Again, dyslexic, can't even read. So I'm like trying to figure out what it is. And if there is a road closure,

Booking Chuck By Being Messy

SPEAKER_02 30:50

you're screwed. It was a very stressful day. And I was in the car, and I remember being like, Mom, I know, I think like I'm not gonna be able to make this. I'm just skip that one. And she was like, Again, this is the thing. Sometimes my mom will push me in these moments. She's like, I think you need to show up to that one. And I was like, okay. And so I show up to that one, and I go in, and I this is my memory of it, is I remember being there and looking at all the girls around me. And I think the wardrobe I was wearing was for like my next audition. Yeah. And I was like, I am not stressed the way like I am not, I'm not gonna get this. I'm not this is not for, you know. And I go in and it was in front of like all the writers and everyone. I didn't know the room was gonna be that big either. Um, and I had one word and I said the wrong one. I either said mom or dad, whatever it was. I think it was mom. And then we laughed, and then I did it again, and then I booked the job.

SPEAKER_00 31:45

Okay, time out. Time out. I'm sorry, we gotta go back.

SPEAKER_02 31:49

We gotta go back and forth to that, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:51

You said the wrong word.

SPEAKER_02 31:53

Yeah, that's my memory.

SPEAKER_00 31:55

Oh my god, that's hilarious, and I love it, and I'm obsessed with this. I think that's great. Look, I think that this is part of all of this is to create permission structures for people to be comfortable not knowing that they don't know what they're doing. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 32:09

Like part of it is like that. Is that actually should be on a t-shirt? I feel like that's what I'm learning. Like even saying yes to showing up to this and do it, yeah, is me being like, I feel like I'm in such a transition and I feel very messy right now. And I'm like, whatever. Like, I'm f like, okay, figure it out. Like just show up and can you be brave enough to just be honest at where you're at?

SPEAKER_04 32:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:35

And which interestingly enough is what makes art good. Is like honest authenticity, mess, like the theater thing is like the thing that goes wrong that night is the thing that makes the play alive.

SPEAKER_04 32:48

Right.

SPEAKER_02 32:48

So can I take that knowledge about that and like apply it to my everyday existence? I'm trying.

SPEAKER_00 32:56

Yeah. I mean, it's it's hard to, it's hard, right? Because there's so many external forces, and like everybody's got an idea about what it is that you need to do to get to the place that you that they think you ought to be instead of just being.

SPEAKER_02 33:09

I'm obsessing about what they think.

SPEAKER_00 33:11

Right, right, right, right.

SPEAKER_02 33:11

And I'm like, who do you need me to be? How should I dress? What should I wear? How should I be all the things?

SPEAKER_00 33:16

Right. But the story that you just told is that you dressed up like a person that wasn't even supposed to be in the audition. Everybody else was dressed the way that you dressed like some like a lumberjack for your you know, TGI Friday audition that you're going to after that. And you showed up, you said the wrong word. There's like three letters of a word. You said the wrong one. They laughed and you got the job.

SPEAKER_02 33:33

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 33:34

That's incredible.

SPEAKER_02 33:35

And then it airs, right? Well, then I go and I work on Warner Brothers, which was so cool. You know what I mean? Um, and we were like the scene was in one of the houses. So I'm also like on Warner Brothers on a lot, in anybody who's been to Warner Brothers, it's like so cool. It's like a neighborhood that exists. Like, talk about I'm in it. Oh my gosh, I'm in my dream.

SPEAKER_00 33:59

Um and it's the Academy Award is so close. You're so close to touching it. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:04

Even though inside I'm like, you don't deserve to be here. Okay, make sure you don't mess up, make sure nobody sees this where it like so much internal stuff. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:13

Um, which by the way, I think my belief system is that everybody says that to themselves. Yeah, no matter how successful, no matter how big, how many awards they've got. Look, um, this is totally anecdotal, but I feel like I heard one time from a good source on the inside that it's like, you know, Tom Hanks won an Academy Award for um best actor for I think it was uh Philadelphia, and then he did another one that what was right after that? Well, he won two Academy Awards, and then the next year he was up to get the three P, right? And he was saving Private Ryan was gonna be his third, and he ended up losing it, right? Yeah. Do you think that he went home and was just like, I'm great. I feel really good about that. I'm totally fine. No, dude. I want to believe he was No, he definitely wasn't. Yeah, America's every man was also like, fuck, I should have got that third one. I'm not good enough to get like everybody's yeah, everybody's insecure. There's no dollar sign or amount of awards that are gonna put on a shelf that you're gonna be like, I mean it.

SPEAKER_02 35:11

Yeah, yeah, that's true, I think, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 35:14

Anyway, I don't know if that Tom Hanks thing is true or not, but whatever.

SPEAKER_02 35:18

It's the internet. We can say anything we want.

SPEAKER_00 35:19

It's the internet, we can say anything we want, Tom. Come at me.

SPEAKER_02 35:23

Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:25

Sorry, I cut you off. But so you were on Warner Brothers lots, you're shooting in a house, you're certainly nervous, but you're ready.

SPEAKER_02 35:32

I'm ready. All of the actors come in. So I meet like the scene was most of the main cast, but I don't really meet them because I'm a one-day guest star. So it's like they're very busy, I'm there, hi, hi, nice. Everybody's very nice to me.

SPEAKER_00 35:43

Yeah. Um, do you know? Sorry to cut you off. Do you happen to know what episode of is this season one?

SPEAKER_02 35:49

No, this is season three. I can't remember the episode, but it's towards the end. And what is my character is like a reveal in the sense that it's like, oh, now Casey, this character on the show, he has a daughter that nobody knew about, right? And so I guess there was a version of my mind that understood that it could always be something bigger, but I didn't think it would be that. And there was no contractor talk about that. Right. The episode aired. Um, I remember because this was also like the time of Twitter, which I wasn't really like on uh social media in that way, but like literally a friend had been like, you need to have a Twitter. So she had set the account up, and I never like silenced the notifications because I never got a notification until the day it aired. And then all of a sudden it was like and I had this moment of being like, Oh, that's it. I guess because I didn't totally understand how much of like a phenomenon and like little what's the word I'm looking for? Like cult classic in some ways, for lack of a better term, that uh Chuck was. Like Chuck has this incredible fan base, which I'm so so deeply grateful for. Um and so when they decided to write the character back, I didn't inherently have the role. They called my manager and was like, okay, this character is going to continue, but I had to retest. So it had already aired and they were maybe gonna recast me. But I guess it makes sense. But this is the way I always made sense of it, is like this was like my second job. And I was I gonna um but the casting directors, I got there and they were so wonderful, I was so nervous. Of course, right? The casting directors were so wonderful, and I remember them saying something like, We want you to get this, like all of us want you to, like, we want you to succeed in this, which really made me feel good. Um, and we worked on it and then it went. And then I remember I was working a uh cocktail waitressing like job, like at somebody's house, actually a very famous actor's house who was having a party, and I was there and it was like all these like the world that I wanted to be in. Right, of course. And I am there with like a tray of champagne, like aerating the lawn with my heels as I'm going around.

SPEAKER_00 38:02

I've definitely done this before, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:03

And so it's like my life at that time was so much like these expositions, and I was very overwhelmed, and I went behind uh the garbage cans to take a break for a second and smoke a cigarette because I smoked at that time. I do not condone smoking, but I was, and I was like so emotional. Like I like I just was at a weird place, and then my phone banged, and it's a friend of mine, and she was like, Michael Ossiello just said, I just read that he had which was like some I don't know if you know it was, but he he like had a website or whatever at the time. It was like a blog or something like that. It was dropping insider knowledge. But somehow it was released that I was going to be on the show and my character was gonna keep going. That's how I found out about it. So right away I was like, wait, what? She sent me the link. I'm like, are you sure? And so then I send it to my manager right away, and like I can't remember those pieces, but then it all comes together. It's like, yes, it's gonna happen. But it was like this total, like it felt like this show had not existed yet, but it felt like party down. You know what I mean? Like it felt like a like um, so yeah, it was like a very surreal kind of moment, and then I went, I kept working, and then that one word co-star turned into three the next two seasons.

SPEAKER_00 39:17

Okay, so just be when you say you finished working, you mean you went back into the cocktail party and you finished that job?

SPEAKER_02 39:22

I needed that money. Are you kidding me? I had to do I wasn't gonna book another job. Okay, I get it.

SPEAKER_00 39:28

I just like but I had a different experience.

SPEAKER_02 39:29

I was like, mm-hmm, I'll be on your side soon. What would you know?

SPEAKER_00 39:39

Oh my god, that's incredible. I definitely had the cater wait, so many cater waiter means. Um okay, great. So you're on the show.

SPEAKER_02 39:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:46

And how was that?

SPEAKER_02 39:48

Oh, it was,

Fandom Comic Con And Career Whiplash

SPEAKER_02 39:50

it changed my life. It was like honestly, it was really, really, it was very fun. I kind of wish I could go back in time and be more present.

SPEAKER_04 40:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:01

But I was just so trying, again, at that time, it was a lot of like, am I doing this right? Am I making things is everything okay? And then because the show had such like a fandom, too, it felt like I felt like there was a lot of responsibility to something that had already been created and deeply loved.

SPEAKER_04 40:21

Right.

SPEAKER_02 40:22

Um, and I'm so grateful to all of the Chuck fans because I really feel like their embracing of my character is a lot of the reasons I think that they kept writing for me.

SPEAKER_03 40:32

Right.

SPEAKER_02 40:33

Um, and it it was fun. And then I like meet some of my best friends on the planet, you know? Like Yvonne is one of my very greatest friends, and so it totally changed my life.

SPEAKER_00 40:44

Yeah, yeah. That's incredible. I mean, I hear you talk about that, I hear you say that in like just about the experience of it and the and you you know the reverence that you brought to this character because of the fans and their response to you being so positive. Yeah, and like I I do think that there is something to be said that's like you are the person that they fell in love with, right? Like you coming to this story through this character is like um what you brought of yourself to it is the thing that they connected with. Yeah, right. Yeah, of course. I mean, I think it's important to say because a lot of times it's really easy for us as artists, I think, to be like, oh, I'm I'm just doing somebody else's bidding. But like the reality is that while that may be true, the people who are consuming this story see you as this person, and this person can't exist without you.

SPEAKER_02 41:43

Thanks for saying that. Yeah, of course. Can I take that in?

SPEAKER_00 41:46

Yeah, of course. Okay, so um, truck fans love you, right?

SPEAKER_02 41:50

Yeah, well, I felt love from them, I should say. Like we went to I had like a Comic-Con experience.

SPEAKER_00 41:56

Oh man, talk to us about this. This is gonna be awesome.

SPEAKER_02 41:59

Um uh we were at a part uh like Zach, who was the main guy, Zach Levi, he had nerd herd at the time, and we would do uh like a I don't know, where people come and meet and greets. I'd never had one. And like that was my first experience. I was like, I am here for an hour and there's a line and they're waiting. Like it's a to feel that part made me feel very overwhelmed because to be that part felt like kind of dysregulating some way because of my my stuff, but I also felt so like I I think that's when I really understood like how important and loved this show was and how and looking back, like the fact that I ever even got that experience is wild, man. Like I that power might be emotional, but sometimes I'll sit in a place where I'm like, my career didn't go where I thought it should go or where my life didn't turn out, you know. And then I remember if I had told that like a seven-year-old who was sitting there like watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer that one day it would happen and I would be on TV in a show that like matters to people. Yeah, like I'm able to kind of look back now and take more I guess it's what you were just talking to me about. Like, I'm I'm taking more ownership, not like this was an accident that happened to me. Like, like there was a version of me that created the narrative that was like I kept having to prove myself. Like I like they didn't really want me, you know what I mean? Which is not about them, that's about me and my history, you know? Um but it was it was wild, it was it was wild.

SPEAKER_00 43:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:41

Man, that's so awesome. Okay, so then did so was your character written off or did the see the just series just wrapped?

SPEAKER_02 43:48

Yes, the series totally ended.

SPEAKER_00 43:50

Okay, so they everything's tied up in a nice little bow.

SPEAKER_02 43:53

Like you're Chuck kept being like, maybe it's gonna be on the chopping block.

SPEAKER_00 43:57

Right.

SPEAKER_02 43:57

I mean not because the fans didn't like it, but I Whatever the money thing was. And then so we knew that last season was our last season. So the writers had time to like create an ending that made sense. But the ending was like a bit of a cliffhanger.

SPEAKER_00 44:13

Right. Oh, interesting. Yeah. Okay, that's cool. So hey.

SPEAKER_02 44:17

Listen, that is the question everyone wants on asked online. I have no answers. I do not know if it'll be a good idea.

SPEAKER_00 44:22

I didn't even know I was gonna ask that question today, but like, okay, great. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:25

I mean, that's people are always saying that. I I don't know that.

SPEAKER_00 44:28

I mean, it's the world of reboots and regenesis of things. Who knows? Anything's possible.

SPEAKER_02 44:33

Anything is possible.

SPEAKER_00 44:34

Um, okay, so uh Chuck ends.

SPEAKER_02 44:36

Chuck ends.

SPEAKER_00 44:37

Now what?

SPEAKER_02 44:39

Chuck ends, and I I get my first uh offer for a feature, an indie feature, and that was really, really, really, really cool. And I go to um upstate New York in this tiny little town called Ryanbeck, and I'm working with um a bunch of actors who I love, one of which is Glenn Powell, who wasn't Glenn Powell yet.

SPEAKER_00 45:04

Yeah, he was Glenn Powell.

SPEAKER_02 45:06

I mean, he was always Glenn Powell.

SPEAKER_00 45:07

But um But now he's Glenn Powell. Glen Glenn Powell.

SPEAKER_02 45:12

And let me tell you, he has had star power since the beginning.

SPEAKER_00 45:14

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:15

Um, yeah, and so that was such a cool experience. All of a sudden, like it felt there was a wave that I was kind of writing, and it felt really good. And I had a lot of fun um on that set, and I loved it. And then I would say shortly after that, I hit a roadblock.

SPEAKER_04 45:38

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 45:38

And a lot of that, it's hard to like fully talk about it because some of it's like very kind of like personal.

SPEAKER_04 45:45

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 45:46

But a lot of the pieces, like what was happening professionally is I was I I was getting really close to a lot of things. And the feedback was constantly like something about the way I looked and my age being perceived. So, or that's how I was internalizing. It was like, we love McKenna, but she doesn't look old enough to have a baby, or I love McKenna. So it was like a lot of my old narrative stuff was like coming down on me that something intrinsically about the way I show up and exist in the world is what is wrong with that.

SPEAKER_00 46:14

That's the problem, right?

SPEAKER_02 46:15

That's the problem. Um, and then also the industry was shifting at this time. There was like a big

Streaming Money Shifts And Survival Jobs

SPEAKER_02 46:20

shift that was happening. And in what way? Um I think there was a lot. I mean, Netflix. So Chuck is the first, uh I think of my understanding, is one of the first people. Like, instead of going to like regular syndication, we have a Netflix deal. And so now we're living on.

SPEAKER_00 46:40

So you guys aren't syndicated at all.

SPEAKER_02 46:43

I mean, we were we went to Netflix, we had like 90, whatever. Oh, this is rolling. I don't know. Uh we, I mean, we went to Netflix. Right. So we didn't air on TV afterwards. And so what that also meant financially, I think now we have an understanding because we've gone through the strike and all this stuff.

SPEAKER_04 47:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:01

But like I made money basically one time for this deal.

SPEAKER_04 47:07

Right.

SPEAKER_02 47:07

And then so what also happened is like I had to go back to work. And the work I went back to was being a waitress.

unknown 47:14

Right.

SPEAKER_02 47:14

And there is no shame in being a waitress. I actually like loved that, yeah, a lot of that experience. But when you're on a TV show that's airing and you work with your waitressing apron on, and people are like, oh my God, I love you. Can I like have your autograph? There is this like really weird perception, like thing that was going on in my mind. And one of the things that I definitely experienced at that time was there's like a hierarchy energy in this town. Like when you're working, it means something, and when you're not working, it means something else. And like if you let yourself down, allow that energy to come in, which I did because I was really used to finding all the narratives that meant I was small.

SPEAKER_04 47:57

Right.

SPEAKER_02 47:58

Um, yeah, and it really crept in on me. Um, and then I had some like kind of personal stuff that happened, and I just felt like I started like free falling. Like I didn't know what what branch to like latch on to. Um and then I went into kind of a journey where I I well, I was always making my own stuff. Like before I even got Chuck, I co-created and co-starred in an indie feature that me and my cousin Polly Cole and Natalie Smyka and my cousin's husband, so my husband-in-law, Joe Robert Cole, um, we all created. And uh that was like this wild, crazy experience. So I was always like making movies and wanting to do that.

SPEAKER_04 48:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:47

Um, so that part kind of shifted back in. And I started like making a bunch of shorts again and like writing TV scripts with Natalie and my friend that I just talked about. And so I was I was starting to kind of shift, but I was figuring out I was at the beginning of this journey of figuring out who I was, and also I think maybe like the heart of it was like I said before, what creativity always was for me was a way for me to like process and understand the world and my feelings. So it was a very important tool for me to be able to show up as a healthy organism. And once I like outsourced that to commerce, and once I outsourced that to like this is what your value is, which both the world did to me and I showed up to because I thought, I don't know, like that's what I how I was perceiving it. I lost this thing that was so important for me to like be an okay human in the world. And yeah, it's been like I don't know how many years now, but like a decade plus of me like figuring out. And I just feel like at this moment I've I'm starting to like write my ship and on honestly, like understand I feel excited again like I did when I was little, but I had to renegotiate my dream. You know

COVID Reset Grief And New Freedom

SPEAKER_02 50:10

what I mean?

SPEAKER_04 50:10

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 50:11

I had to let myself break up with my dream too. That was a big thing that happened. So like there's this little pocket of time that like I'm auditioning and things aren't happening, and blah blah blah blah blah and like the the walls are caving in, and then COVID happens. And that was a big break. And there was a moment where my manager, it's a long story, all these moving pieces, but he calls, and for no fault of his home or whatever, like there's a big layoff that happens, and I find myself for the first time in my career, because again, I came out here and things kind of happened for me pretty quickly.

SPEAKER_04 50:40

Right.

SPEAKER_02 50:41

I find myself with no representation, and I thought that that feeling would be panicking, but instead it felt freeing. And I was like, Oh man, this is an interesting thing that I'm gonna sit with. And everyone, a lot of people at the time were like, How am I gonna get back on set? And blah blah blah. And I was like, I don't like something deep inside of me was like, you need to stop, you need to take a break. And then a couple like shortly after that, my dad uh has a stroke, he's doing great, but I what I then had for the first time in my life, I had no anger here, and I was able to just like go home and show up for however many months, three, four months, and just be really present. And I find myself back in my childhood bedroom, and I'm looking around at like my karate trophies and my trap clowns and my like all my stuff from my acting and like all these pieces of who I was. And there is a moment where I was like, I woke up and I was 35 and I was like, How did it turn out like this? And then there was another part that was like, oh yeah, like this is who I always was. Right. And then I was like rollerblading around my neighborhood, and I was doing little art projects again with my friends, and I was like, I a friend of a friend was a photographer, and I was like, I have this like concept, we have big, like, let's go just shoot a bunch of pictures. Like these things that made me me again were starting to slowly come back to my. Like you every it's all about you. And like not just about me, it's but like about it's all of your hyphenates. Yeah, it's about all the pieces that make me. It's it's like what I was feeling in high school, right? Where I could make whatever I wanted to make. Where when you're in hall, when you're like in a job like this, and there's no like it's not bad or good, but it's like your color is purple. Your job today is to show up and be the color purple, but I'm like, but I also think blue and orange and green and all these things with like, you know, yeah. Um and so then that's like the beginning of the journey that I started to be on. And um, and I don't know where I'm going, but I'm having more fun making art than I ever have. And another important piece that I that happened was I also started working with an artist that like really inspired me. And I would, so I produced something for my friend Yanni Gelman, and he's such an interesting creative artist. Like he the way he thinks and goes, and like a lot of the way we shoot stuff is like kind of gorilla and like we'll show up somewhere. And I was like, yes, this is fun again. And how do I help you take your vision and become something? And then I worked with Yvonne Strachovski, who we I met on Chalk, who is a good friend of mine, and she had this idea for a short, and we were just like throwing it around the living room one day. And it I that experience was deeply healing because a lot of what was hard for me in other set situations, even the best versions of them, is that they weren't always set up for somebody like a neurocomplex person with CPTSD. Like there was a lot of things. And to be on her set and the way she ran it, and the way she ran, it was healing for me because she is a mother and she's showing up and she's like every everyone was being taken care of. It was an active learning situation. She knew that there was parts of me that was learning, and there was no like shame in that.

SPEAKER_04 54:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:36

And I had this flash where I was like, okay, this is the heartbeat. If I can create work environments that feel like this, or show up to work environments that or only say yes to work environments that feel like that, then I think there's still a world where I get to play. And so now as I am creating my own work environments, I'm thinking so deeply from that lens. Like, how can this be the most ethical place possible? Um, how can it be the safest for everybody? How can, you know, like, yeah, so that's where that sounds great.

SPEAKER_00 55:10

That's incredible. I mean, I like like one thing that I want to say like to that is that it's like I um I really empathize with the idea of letting go of a dream, right? And I think like I've been having conversations here, but also outside of the podcast with just like friends and fellow creatives that I knew pri before COVID.

SPEAKER_03 55:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:33

And like I think the overwhelming sense is that we are of a generation of people that by virtue of having lived in a world prior to COVID, into by virtue of having lived in a Hollywood before COVID, yeah, uh, we had a narrative that was built for us about what linear uh rise and elevation looks like within that industry that existed. Totally. Right? And that industry has completely changed within a less than five-year period, and now here we are on the other side of it without the hubris of youth, right? Yes, because we have experienced the hubris of youth, and we were we were given we were given gifts for that, we were given accolades and opportunities, and like we were like, this is what it is, great. We can have abundance in this world that is very clearly only about commerce, but we can figure out our place within it, we can figure out how to rise within whatever that expect uh expectation of success is for us, right? Pitching, selling TV shows, going to studios, doing all this stuff, right? And then COVID hits, and then everything changes, and then for a certain class of people within Hollywood, everything stayed the same. Yes, right, and then there's a large group of people who are probably like more middle class within that world, the bottom completely dropped out, right? And so we're all positioned, and and my friend said this to me that and I think it's really applicable to what you're saying, is that he was like, Oh, I had to grieve the loss of the career I thought.

SPEAKER_02 57:20

I am grieving everything about what I thought my life would be.

SPEAKER_00 57:24

Right.

SPEAKER_02 57:25

I mean, pick a topic. Like, I thought as a 41-year-old woman, again, I would have an Oscar, I'd be having my production company, I'd be married, I'd have a child. Like all of these things I thought were supposed to happen to me, but didn't happen. And there is a massive grief that has to take place. And also the life I have right now is the my most favorite version of my life I have ever been in. And so I I also think like what you're saying is interesting, it's really important because I also think it's like a microcosm of what was also happening everywhere else in the world. Like this huge thing happened, and there's a version of people on a version level of privilege, right? A lot of people from that nice hometown I came from, who none of this affected them, right? But I or it affected them but in different ways, not financially, they stole their houses, all the things. Their jobs still were there and existed. And one of the things that also happened as a person who like mental health is something that's very important for my being, uh, because I have all this stuff going on. Um I needed therapy was really, really important for me. And when everything fell apart, what that also meant was I lost my health care. And when I lose my health care, I am so grateful because I'm so grateful that I have the straight up privilege to have parents who could step in and help me and make sure I got the care that I needed so that I could still be present to be here today. And I think the shift that happened in our industry, the shift that happened everywhere, it's like we're okay, there's like so many pieces the way my brain thinks about it. But right now it feels like if I pitch a business idea to somebody, the the conversation is always, how can great, how can you minimize labor cost? And I'm like, but labor costs are human beings. That's how we feed our families, that's how we feed ourselves. Um, and the more and more and more, like even with the AI a conversation, I I think I have many thoughts on AI, but like it's a tool, but also the way everything is going, everything it's like, how many people can we get how how can we have least least amount of people being paid on this payroll?

SPEAKER_04 59:47

Right.

SPEAKER_02 59:48

And that is a world where people don't survive. And I don't actually think it's good for the artist. Like, uh I want to live in a world where anyone who I'm working with, we are all everyone is being able to feed their family, everyone is being taken care of, and that takes an incredible consciousness shift for all of us.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:08

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:08

So even the people, if anyone is out here who can like fund something, maybe thinking about the value of paying human beings as something really important in the funding of art.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:21

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:22

So I don't know that like it feels adjacent to what you were saying, but also the ways I've been thinking about how I would like to build any art that I'm making in the future. And I might fail at that. There might be ways that I can't do that thing. But the more of us that are like thinking about how we make sure we as people have all the things we need to survive and be people, I think it will ultimately always serve art because art is collaboration. And the more of us that can be on the day playing, the more collaboration exists.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:58

Yeah. Okay, great. So you are currently finding you just you just said not not very long ago that you find yourself in the in your favorite version of your life right now. And um you're um putting together projects where you have just started uh recording an album. Is that correct?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:15

Oh my god, yes. If I okay, I'm gonna work through my imposter syndrome. Yes, I am.

Ethical Sets AI And Paying People

SPEAKER_02 1:01:20

I think it's an EP. I don't really understand the difference. Somebody told me it was the amount of things that are on there. Um, my journey with that, kind of as I was talking about before, where my therapist was encouraging me to like have things that don't leave any part of me out. Another thing about being somebody who has trauma is a lot of times I didn't feel like I had a voice, right? And so she was like, I want you to be doing things where you're using your voice. I want you to be singing again. And I had stopped singing for a very long time. Singing was like, like I said before, it was like this really important thing, but I was like loud and annoying, and I had a teacher who meant well, but something like hurt my feelings. And I was like, nope, music's not for me. Like singing's not for me, even though I had like a guitar that I carried around with me for like 10 years that I'd be like, play my guitar. Anybody who came over to my house.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:13

Um, and so I had a guitar at my house, that guitar. And I, after therapy, one day I just like turned on my iPhone, which is also very weird because I'm not like a videotape myself person, but I turned my iPhone on and I just had a new two chords, and I would just play these two chords, and I just started like as a way to release, get all of this stuff out of me. And what I started to realize when I was looking back on it is I was like, oh, like I would watch the videos back and I'd be like, oh, that's how I'm feeling. Oh, that's how I'm feeling. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's how I'm feeling. And then I had this piano at my and no part of me was like, You're gonna make music. Are you kidding me? That felt like so another lifetime that that would be possible for me. Um, and then I had this piano at my house, and I was like, I want to learn how to play that piano. And I put it out into the universe, and I literally, a friend of mine was like, Hey, we should go to this like friend's house party, whatever. And I was like, okay, and the first person I meet is my piano teacher, shout out Danielle Titus. She's the best. If you guys need her, Instagram, check her out. Um, and she I meet her and she's like the parents, kids, piano teacher. I'm like, Do you teach adults? And she was like, I'll teach anyone who wants to learn. Um, and then so she came over, and as my 39-year-old birthday present to myself, I started piano lessons. And at a certain point, I get to this moment where like I have chords and I'm by myself, and this thing happens where like I just like it's like a song fell out of me, but I didn't know it was a song because I wasn't, I was like, what does this, what does it mean to be a song? Like, is that is what I did a song, or like am I making it? So then I would started reading this book, like Jeff Tweety's book, like write one song. I was like just trying to understand what it all was. And meanwhile, I was having, it was like therapy. It was like helping me heal it. And what's fascinating to me is if you look at the clips of it, A, I start in this one little version of me, and my voice is like tiny and like this, and I'm scared. And then like I age and I gain 20 pounds, and life happens, and my voice starts to drop and it starts settling into this place. And then I just start like slowly putting it out into the universe. I start like slowly sending friends things. I sent Serena something, and she was like, that's a song. And I was like, okay, that's a song. Um, but the whole time, because I'm a narrative film world person, they're not just songs for me. They all have like a video, essentially. So I'm like, oh, I guess I'm making music videos too, and they're all a story and they all go together. And and then I and but I kept going back and forth being like, Are you allowed to do this? You're not a singer. Like, who are you? This with your midlife crisis, you're gonna be a pop star. You know what I mean? Like, and then I was like, no, just keep following what feels fun. Just keep following what feels fun and trust that that at the very least will be a life you like living. And so, yeah, my life now looks like me playing music, having my piano teacher come up. I'm like helping a bunch of my other friends create their art together. And I'm making these music videos. I don't know what they will be or where they'll go, or if I'll ever even share them with the world. But it is it has reignited and like anchored me into me, the thing I need to do to be able to show up as a fully like realized, healthy version of myself so I can enjoy life, you know? Yeah, but I don't know how if I'm gonna get paid, and that's okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:47

Yeah. Look, I look, I um I I think like like to speak about what I was saying before, like hearing you say that, I think that a lot of us uh in this journey of whatever our expectations and That have been completely undercut by circumstances beyond our control. Like we can't control whether um Paramount is gonna buy Netflix or not. Like that's uh without our control, right? So, but what we can do is just choose to create stuff. And like the thing that I've really been trying to focus on the last year myself is being in love with process. Yes, right, because like it's it's really easy, and and especially for like where I'm coming up to, right? Like, is like I s I sort of sometimes feel like I'm the cater waiter situation. We're going back to it after being on the show, which is like, oh, I I was very comfortable uh as an actor in an actor's life and with an actor's income before um COVID hit.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:40

So real shift.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:41

Yeah, real shift, and then going to camera department or grip and electric and like just working my way up through that process and being like, oh, well, I'm 35 and all of my peers are 20, 21. Yeah. And we're all lifting, we're just carrying sandbags and rolling C-stand carts and like carrying the heavy shit and doing all this stuff. And it's really, really easy to fall into being curmudgeonly or annoyed because it's an early call, we're going over time, it's really long. Oh, this director doesn't know what they're doing. Like, there's a group mind within the people below the line that are lifting the heavy shit that it's really easy for them to turn into like and so I was finding myself falling into that.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:27

Um I think that mindset can be at every level, yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is like another piece that I've been sitting with. Like, you get to create your reality. You know what I mean? Like,

Music Pottery And The Closing Challenge

SPEAKER_02 1:07:40

you can go and be like, this is terrible, have all the feelings that you just had, like, this is terrible. Or I can look at my career and be like, I never made it. I'm a one-hit wonder. You should be thankful you're a one-hit wonder, first of all. But or I could be like, wow, I did it and now I have so much more life to live. What do I want to do next?

SPEAKER_04 1:07:56

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:57

It's a narrative shift that we get to choose because what I love, I've never, like I said before, sitting in a theater watching myself, having that's so dysregulating for me. To be perceived is on a large scale is dysregulating. But what is very fun is to be hanging out with my friends, calling C stands, making something cool if I let it be.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:18

Right. You know, right, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:20

Which is the process.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:21

It is the process. It's like l letting yourself love the process. Yeah. Because um process itself is gratifying, but isn't inherently easy. And therefore, those things don't they don't always align, right? Like uh ease or difficulty to gratification level from what you're doing. But that again is a narrative that you're telling yourself that you're like, I'm disgruntled by the amount of work that it's required for whatever this level of satisf satisfaction is. But you can just decide to change that. You like flip a switch and you're like, actually, I'm really grateful to be on set today. And you know what? We're going a little bit long and I'm a little bit tired, and I could use another meal, but whatever. Yeah, we're making a thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:05

We're making a thing. And then, you know, there is the part of that when like if you're on a set and people have a ton of money and they're not taking care of you in the way they should be, like that's a different version of a conversation because we should have like ethical sets and all that stuff.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:18

But getting back to like what is exciting about making something, that's another piece of my journey that I think is kind of important too. I was like, I need to be somewhere where I'm not afraid to be bad again.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:29

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:30

And so I started taking pottery. Great. Which are this is like Sabrina made this, right? She's way better than me. And I would be like on the wheel and it'd be there, and then it would fall apart and I'd be like, oh my God, this is terrible. You're terrible. And I was like, okay, just put another piece of clay on there.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:46

Like and to be, and then to like have fun in it being a mess, which I had gotten so like, okay, this job, I have to get this job to do this thing, because if I don't, I can't feed myself. Right, you know, or I don't have healthcare, or don't like when it it when the stakes are that high, I at least could not show up and be the best version of myself or have the healthiest thing. And that's another thing with music too, because it was like that's not it, it felt like it wasn't my thing, so I could explore there.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:17

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:18

It feels safe to explore there.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:19

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:19

And I am excited to like maybe one day if I do go back to the acting world, which is in my mind, I hope that I can bring that that joy back with me.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:30

Yeah. I hope so too.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:32

Me too.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:32

I think you will.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:33

Thanks, friend. Yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:35

Thank you for joining us today.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:36

Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:37

We're gonna have to do this again because I have a lot so many more things to tell you.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:40

And next time I'll know not to like hit the mic.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:41

I think it's great. I think we're talking about being messy.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:44

You said this is your first podcast ever, girl.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:46

Damn, give us a break. Uh okay, guys, I do. Oh man, I just have so many more questions. This is so lovely. Okay, thank you so much for joining us. Um, this is Film Shit. It is a podcast where we talk under the umbrella of everything TV and film as in film shit, but also it is my hope that it's a call to action. So if you want to sit in this chair next to me and you want me to talk to you about your projects, please go out and film shit. That's the only way that we can do this. It's the only way that we can take care, take control of our own narrative and our own future. So please go make something. Um, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you, McKenna. Thank you. All right, we'll speak soon. Cheers.

unknown 1:11:21

Bye.