Menopause - The hidden invitation

Every Womyn and Her Dog – Episode 8

Menopause - The hidden invitation

We’ve taught women what menopause can do to their bodies.

But have we taught them what menopause may be asking of their lives?

In this episode of Every Womyn and Her Dog, Joanne Lea is joined by Katelyn Dwyer-Taylor and special guest Sandra Stack, creator of Sh!ft-ology, author of This Is Your Shift, and Inner Mastery Coach.

Together, they bring three different perspectives to the conversation: Katelyn as a woman who has not yet reached this threshold, Jo as she navigates perimenopause, and Sandra as a woman who has crossed through menopause herself.

Rather than focusing only on symptoms, this conversation explores menopause as a threshold, a rite of passage and an invitation into a different way of living.

They discuss why women are often taught to manage menopause rather than consciously meet it, what may be unfolding beneath the physical changes, and how this transition can reshape identity, priorities, boundaries, purpose and self-trust.

In this episode, we explore:

•  What is missing from mainstream conversations about menopause 
•  Why menopause can be understood as a threshold or initiation 
•  The difference between managing symptoms and meeting the deeper transition 
•  Why younger women may benefit from learning about menopause long before it begins 
•  How modern culture has lost much of its education around women’s rites of passage 
•  The identity shifts that can accompany perimenopause and menopause 
•  How women can move with this transition rather than only resist it 
•  The importance of spaces that support reflection, connection and conscious change 

This episode is not anti-medical and does not dismiss the physical realities of menopause.

Support the symptoms.

Seek the care you need.

And perhaps, don’t miss the significance of the transition itself.

About Sandra Stack

Sandra Stack is the creator of Sh!ft-ology, author of This Is Your Shift, and an Inner Mastery Coach. Her work supports people to reclaim conscious shifting, self-ownership and a deeper relationship with the way they move through change.

Follow her here: 

• @sandrastack
• www.sandrastackcoaching.com

Explore More

If this episode resonated with you and you’re feeling called toward “something more,” you can explore Joanne’s offerings below:

And She Rose — Joanne’s 2-day immersive women’s experience currently touring across Australia

Embodied Womyn 1:1 — personalised coaching and therapeutic support for women seeking deeper transformation

Her Circle - a week long intensive immersion program that honours and seamlessly blends the ancient craft of basket weaving with profound exploration into women’s development, rites of passage, and connection with the Divine Feminine.

And if you enjoyed this episode, make sure to subscribe, share, and leave a review — it helps more women find these conversations.

Original Soundtrack composed and produced by Flava Productions.

Follow here: https://www.instagram.com/flavaproductions/

Follow Katelyn – Taylor Made Digital Support
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/taylormadedigitalsupport

Follow Joanne Lea
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/joanneleacoach

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/joanneleacoach/

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@joanneleacoach

Substack: https://joanneleacoach.substack.com/

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:05

Hello everyone and welcome to Every Woman and Her Dog, a podcast where we talk about the things women whisper about in kitchens, voice note to their friends, and think about at 2am. I'm your host, Joanne Lee, coach, therapist, and change maker. Each episode we explore the realities of womanhood and cover topics ranging from identity shifts, feminine cycles, to self-leadership, relationships, burnout, and ambition. Bringing to the surface the quiet reinventions happening behind closed doors for women. This is the being and becoming of personal agency. Let's get into it. Welcome to today's episode of Every Woman and Her Dog. Today we are diving deep and talking about the big M-word, menopause. Possibly not in the way that you've heard it spoken about before. Most conversations I find around menopause focus on the symptoms, the hot flushes, the hormones, the sleep, the weight gain, the brain fog. And while all of those experiences are real and deserve support, I believe there's another conversation that's largely missing. What if menopause wasn't simply framed as a biological transition? What if, for women, it was one of the most significant rites of passage in a woman's life? A threshold, an initiation, an invitation into a different way of living. Today we're exploring it. We're exploring it and why we've become so focused on managing the symptoms that we've forgotten to prepare women for this transformation. I'm joined by Caitlin Dwyer Taylor from Taylor Made Digital Support, mom of two girls, and the woman behind the scenes helping bring so much of my work to life. Welcome, Caitlin.

SPEAKER_00 2:09

Hello, hello.

SPEAKER_04 2:11

And joining us is our special guest today, Sandra Stack, creator of Shiftology and the author of This Is Your Shift, working as an inner mastery coach, guiding and teaching people how to reclaim conscious shifting and self-ownership. Welcome, Sandra.

SPEAKER_02 2:28

Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_04 2:29

You are we're stoked to have you here today. What I love about today's conversation is that we're bringing three different perspectives to the table. And when I mean what I what I mean when I say about perspectives, I mean women in different stages or different seasons of a woman's life. So Caitlin is in the depths of her mother season. And I am at the end of my mother season. I'm perimenopausal. So I am about to move through that initiatory space into the next season, which is the MAGA season. So that's when you're post-menopausal, um, or for some women from the age of 50 and above. So what's exciting is we've got these three perspectives today. Together, we're asking, what if every woman understood menopause long before she arrived there? Perhaps then it wouldn't feel like something happening to her, but something that she'd been prepared for and in fact welcomes with open arms. That feels like a really different narrative to the things that I'm hearing and seeing. So I'm gonna hand it over to Caitlin.

SPEAKER_00 3:39

Yeah. Um, before we start though, I think we need to kind of talk about the elephant in the room a little bit, or the elephant not in the room. If we sound or look a little bit different today, it's because Jo's abandoned me and she's gallivanting around Canada.

unknown 3:57

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 3:59

Connecting with some women and Sandra over there.

unknown 4:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:04

Missing me.

SPEAKER_04 4:05

Of course. We're over here in Smithers at the moment. Yeah. So there's busy. Yes. I've been diving deep with Sandra into women's cyclical knowledge, and we've been talking and collaborating and working in in two spaces because we're both in the a similar industry but with different frames. And yes, I've been contacted and connecting with women all over Vancouver. I've made some amazing connections and done some amazing work. So, yes, that is the elephant in the room, Caitlin.

SPEAKER_00 4:38

Yes, yeah, so shout out to our Canadian friends. So I really love that we're having this conversation today because if I'm completely honest, menopause has always felt like something that's later. Um, and I just put to the side, back of my mind, I don't need to think about it. It's definitely gonna come up sooner, I reckon, than I'd expect it to. Something you don't really think about until you're in it. But sitting here with both of you, I am wondering what if it's actually gonna be too late by then if if I wait until it's happening, is it gonna be too late? What if women needed this conversation years, even decades? I'm at twenty nine before menopause ever begins. Maybe it's not just about preparing for sentence. Could it actually be that we are missing vital elements here that flips this time in a woman's life literally on its head? So let's start here. When you hear the word menopause, what do you think is missing from the conversation? We've become very good at talking about symptoms, but what aren't we talking about? Sandra, from your experience and Joe through your work with rites of passage, what do you believe menopause is really inviting us into?

SPEAKER_04 6:12

Hmm. I think this is really interesting. What I am gonna do is I'm gonna hand it over to Sandra for her insight of what that transition was like for her, because she's further along in that journey than I am. And so I think it would be great for Sandra to answer that because she has hindsight, right? Yeah, she has transitioned that space. So from her experiencing that, you know, what does do you feel was missing in the conversation or the experience of how you transitioned that space?

SPEAKER_02 6:52

Conversation. Right. Conversation was missing. Um so a little backstory on me with menopause. I'm gonna be 54. I entered post-menopause around 40 years old. So a lot of a perimenopause, you mean? Yeah, I did perimenopause and then I was pre-menopause right around 40, 41. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it a lot of the conversation was negative if it was even talked about. Right. So it was a lot of labels, a lot of negativity.

SPEAKER_04 7:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 7:37

A lot of negative so the labels were negative? Yes. So uh if I can be frank, you can be as frank as you like we are. Um, you're just being a bitch. Um, you're too young. You're too young. You're too young to be going through that. So that was um I heard that a lot. Was that from just people or professionals as well? People. Okay. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so I knew that it was happening. My doctor knew that it was happening, and it was interesting. Just I was met mostly with negativity, to be honest. And it was uh from women.

SPEAKER_04 8:17

So what impact did that have on you as you were moving through that space? Like you're saying that conversation was missing, but what types of conversation were missing? And when you say that that was missing, what would you have liked to have heard or liked to have been able to use as a resource or an understanding of what was happening?

SPEAKER_02 8:40

I it felt more, like I said, a negative around it. And it was almost like all these horrible things were gonna happen at this point in my life moving forward because of it. So, say like affecting my relationship with my partner, uh, friendships, different things. And so for me, that like that was missing. I felt like I mean it's only been a couple years that people are even talking about their symptoms, I feel. So back then, which I feel like was yesterday, but it was a while ago. Um, it was a very lonely time. So I felt very alone, confused. You're going through this like the symptomatic changes, um, which is one thing to suddenly have all the the symptoms, whether it's belly fat, all the things, right? The hot flashes, that sort of thing. But for me, it was a more mental and it still is feeling more like um the identity shift. Yeah, yeah. And and accepting that without any without the negative on it. So it's like instead of trying to survive menopause, it's more like embracing, embodying it and having that understanding. And we've talked, Joe and I have talked about it, and it's yeah, eye-opening.

SPEAKER_04 10:11

I think it's the conversation that is missing, right? It is, is that the whole thing is framed up. So to come back to your question, you know, about rites of passage, Caitlin. The whole thing to me, or from my understanding now, is framed up as a huge symptom and just a thing that women have to endure or go through or survive, which is your words. And it's not framed up as like a rite of passage. And that's not to detract from the fact that all those things happen, right? Different women have different, like the the amount of symptoms and experiences that women have through through that period are so wide and varied. Yeah, some women suffer from frozen shoulder, other people get restless legs, you know. Then there's the the standard ones that we would talk about, like, you know, the belly fat and the and the brain fog and the and the hot blushes. They can we can't go without the hot blushes. I've reframed that. It's a hot blush to me. It's an energy rolling through my body, but that might not be comfortable for some people, right? So that is the conversation. That's that is that's it. Framed. The conversation is the symptoms. This is what menopause is. Yeah. So for me, when I then look at it, I go, and sort of touching on the the comment that you said before, Caitlin, about is it too late or is it um, you know, when should you know? Because at the moment it's sort of put to the side. And I'm like, when we should know when we're little. We should know when we're being uh, you know, in our ancient ancestral feminine matriarchal uh education, we would know about that as young women. We would be educated about monarch, which is the first bleed, our different seasons, birthing, all of this type of stuff, along with that rite of passage into the season of the MAGA, which comes after we've gone through menopause, right? So uh yeah, in terms of the conversation that isn't happening, that is the one that's not happening. That uh, and if we like, well, I'm gonna ask you this question actually, Sandra. If you were prepared and informed when you entered that initiation period and you were empowered with the fact that this is actually really normal, even though the symptoms might not be great, that this is normal. And what you're actually going through is an identity shift for the purposes of coming into a more empowered space within yourself, because the role that you play in the in your seasonal cycle, but in the world too, to yourself and to others is shifting and changing. And you're now gleaning all of this experience that you had. But there's also an invitation to clean up anything that you haven't dealt with from your maiden years, so that you move into this powerful time, stable, happy, clear, clean, integrated, and ready to embody what's happening on a biological level as a neural upgrade, right? So, like, what would that have been like for you?

SPEAKER_02 13:31

Life-changing. It would have I would have been excited about it. I would have um embraced it and leaned into it, and it just would have felt like celebrating it more so than something just icky. I just feel like it's always had that bad flavor. You know, and so and now for me, being almost 54, I say to people, like 50s, and this is most probably the reason is this feels like the best years of my life. Like I had I known this, I would have really welcomed and looked forward to this time of my life rather than oh gosh, it's downhill from here.

SPEAKER_04 14:25

Sitting in the indoctrinated framework that was Thankgiving. Yeah, yeah, yeah. How does that all end with you, Caitlin, hearing that and sort of like you said, you're not there yet, and it's probably the last thing on your mind because you're in the the depths of motherhood. But how does that all sort of sit with you?

SPEAKER_00 14:44

From like the few people that you know are around me that you know going through it have already gone through it, it seems like it's almost like pretty taboo to talk about it or embarrassing, like uh just I'll say this short, this short little statement and then we're not gonna talk about it. Um, so it's kind of like okay, we don't talk about it. But I liked how Sandra said, you know, it's like the best use of your life, it's not you know, it's not downhill because I I always like to think of every year of my life as the next level. So I keep I keep going up these levels. So yeah, if you think about it that way, you go through the level of motherhood and then you get to upgrade to the next level. Um and and carry with you everything you've you've learnt and gone through to just be better and better and better.

SPEAKER_04 15:35

Absolutely, and I think it's important to make that um the clear definition, like that that that motherhood time, so you know, 25 to 50-ish, that you don't have to be a a mother to human babies to be in the mother season, because the mother season is all about you know, high summer, full energy, when you're outputting a lot and you're in that space where you're mothering many, many, many things, but you're not necessarily mothering human children. So that the the what that looks like for each woman can be very different, but the energies and the the archetype of that time and space all has very similar themes, yeah. Yeah, uh, so that's a big thing. And I've got friends that have had hysterectomies who have navigated uh meant the mentors initiation that looked different to them, but the themes were still the same. They the the emotional invitations and the the psychological invitations to that period of integrating the self and all parts of the self are still there, regardless of what the physical part looks like. That's another layer, those themes and those flavors that the invitations are still there for all of us, right? And I think that answers your well for me, that's answering your question, Caitlin. What do I believe menopause is really inviting us into? The next space, the most powerful time of a woman's life where her focus can shift. And also, let's talk about the elephant in the room, Estrogen leaves the building. And with the elephant leaves the building. That mothering, nurturing, like it doesn't mean to say that we don't have that anymore, but it does railroad us somewhat into uh a different way of being and thinking. So when oestrogen leaves the building, we step up to ourselves and go, right now, it's actually I can hold space for myself and speak what's right and true for me, as well as turning up for other people.

SPEAKER_02 17:47

I feel the perceived responsibility that it's our job to take care of everybody else and people please, and everyone comes before us for me definitely has left the building.

SPEAKER_04 18:05

That doesn't mean by any means, would you say that you are less, you know, caring or wanting to show up in the spaces for your people and whoever your partner than what you were before? It just looks different.

SPEAKER_02 18:17

It looks different for sure. Yeah, I'm definitely more self-aware of where am I in that instead of pushing myself down, I'm making sure, you know, for lack of better phrase, um, that my cup is full and then still taking and helping other people. Yeah, for sure. I love this, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:39

Yeah, Joe, you've described menopause as a threshold rather than simply a stage of life. Can you explain more what you mean by that?

SPEAKER_04 18:49

So dictionarially, I don't even know if that's a word, but we're gonna create it today. You're in Canada. Um uh a threshold is a point of change. It's a it's where you know change begins or effect, it starts to shift and change things. So we've just sort of tapped on into that, like things look different, right? So for me, when I talk about a threshold, it's crossing from one space to the other. In the priestess world, we call that the void space where we move from one, or we could talk about it as doors, we close one door and we open another, but there's still a threshold that one has to cross to close that door and then open into another space. So yeah, I uh it is a threshold, it's a threshold of change. But then, so are all of our other rites of passage. Like if you go back to our first rite of passage, which is monarch, our first bleed, that's a threshold, right? We step from being a young girl into being a woman and being able to give and create life, right? That's a threshold that changes and that's solidified through through our first bleed, right? So there's all these different places and spaces, but primarily our rights of passage come at those different seasonal changes of our life.

SPEAKER_00 20:14

Yeah. So what makes menopause an initiation rather than another life event?

SPEAKER_04 20:22

Hmm. That's actually a really good question. I believe that anything that invites us to challenge the status quo, anything that invites us to take a look at how we're showing up and what impact that has is an initiation because you cannot go through those spaces and commit to those without change happening, right? So you're initiating a new way of being through that process. So I don't think it's well, in some circles, it might be just like, oh, it's a part of life in my space where I work with women, it's an initiation. Initiation is a whole bunch of invitations to some of those things, plus more, and that's how I see it differently to um just a thing that happens.

SPEAKER_00 21:20

Yes. Yeah, yeah. So Sandra, do you see women experiencing that same deeper transition alongside the physical one? I do.

SPEAKER_02 21:32

Um, and you know, speaking from experience and talking to other people um that are past period now.

SPEAKER_04 21:42

Um well, I wonder if you're seeing them more like if they're not understanding that yet until they're through. Like you and I have talked about that, and you're like, I've got a deeper understanding of that now. But are they actually understanding what that is as it's happening?

SPEAKER_02 22:01

Yeah, and I think the deeper transition for me is as I'm going through it, I'm like figuring out the pieces. Um, my mom had cancer, so she had chemo when she was 42. And so sh there was no talking about menopause. And even if she had gotten got to the place of menopause, I don't know that she would have talked about it.

SPEAKER_04 22:25

Yeah, maybe not.

SPEAKER_02 22:26

Right. So kind of just like fly bird, fly, and just figure it out as you go. And and I feel like I kind of had to do it the hard way. Like more conversations like this need to happen. Um amongst women, um, including men to understand, um, instead of just going the old way and just trying to get through to the other side.

SPEAKER_04 22:56

Or like the more conversations we have, the more language we have around it, the more we can inform our partners, our and the men in our lives.

SPEAKER_02 23:05

Well, when we have better understanding, then we do have um the words and ability to first understand ourselves and put language around it to then be able to talk to our partner or friends or whomever about what it is we're experiencing.

SPEAKER_04 23:26

Yeah. I it's so interesting you talk about like not having any leadership in that space or no shepherdesses to model off or understand about that this rite of passage. I actually reflected on what I know of my mom. She didn't really ever talk about her menopause, but I remember it as her cranky time.

SPEAKER_03 23:50

She was very cranky.

SPEAKER_04 23:53

And I don't know if she knew what was actually going on for herself because I remember, you know, a couple of times me or my siblings would say, Mom, you're really angry, like what's going on? And there were other elements in her life going on that would have made that time challenging as it is. Um, but she's like, No, I'm not angry, I'm not angry. And I'm thinking now I'm looking back at that, going, I actually feel like she might have been in perimenopause or um, you know, transitioning that space. And I don't know, this is the problem, right? I don't know if her mother had any conversations with her. And so my mum hasn't really had any conversations with me until I've enacted them. I'm like, so mum, when did you go through menopause? Oh, I don't know, I think around 50. Okay, so what were your symptoms? She could tell me things more about her cycle, like, oh, I started to get more headaches, um, my cycle started to change, but that was it.

SPEAKER_02 24:52

The physical.

SPEAKER_04 24:53

Exactly. All that's reiterated is this physical and and nothing about all the other stuff, which the physical to me, now that I have such a broad understanding of what this rite of passage is, it feels like about 15%. Yes. Yeah. So we've got this huge chunk completely missing. And then, like you said before, Sandra, people are talking about it now. It's getting out there. You know, I heard Tori Amos on the piano talking about perimenopause at one of her concerts not so long ago, and I'm like, when has that ever happened before? Right. So it's becoming more of a common language, however, only 15% of it. Like I'm not hearing women or because they don't know about the other component, the other 75%.

SPEAKER_02 25:45

I feel like in that 15%, most of what is being talked about is again the symptoms. Yes. It's not like when we were speaking earlier today, I was explaining to Joe, like it's almost like I'm seeing out of new eyes. Like I'm I'm becoming more self-aware of my boundaries, of you know, that no is no longer serving me to bring into this identity shift that's happening. Um and the wisdom. So you have your experiences through life, through all the things that I've done good, bad, and everything. And um and and figuring out honestly, like what's working and what's not. And it's just this moment of reflection for me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 26:44

It's really interesting that you also said that you felt really alone because women are supposed to be together, we're supposed to hold space for each other. Uh the, you know, the mother archetypes are supposed to help the maidens move through their thresholds and their rites of passage. The MAGA women are supposed to hold space for the mothers moving through menopause and hold space, and then the crone, the wise elder crone women are supposed to hold space for women moving through that rite of passage into eldership. We do not have that going on. Like, I'm gonna say we suck balls at that right now because it doesn't exist. And if we look at all of those different pain points, not pain points, scrap the pain points word, if we look at all of those different uh rites of passage and uh areas where our lived experience comes into the social collective like periods, menstruation, like giving birth, or menopause, all of our really important rites of passage and things that are very feminine, who should be that should be in the feminine space supported by the feminine have been pathologized and have been turned into like flipped on their hair, turned into things that are taboo, things that are not to be spoken about in public, things that are dirty, things that are then then they're they're disempowering rather than empowering, um, and that there should be this strict structured way of doing things that's very masculine, left-brained, scientific, analytical. Oh, we can tell you about the science, but it's more than the science, right?

SPEAKER_02 28:49

It's almost like we're there's a problem with us. There is. Like there's a problem like we're to be solved. That all these rites of passage that we go through is dirty, gross. We don't talk about it, hide it, shame, all the things. And it's like we just through all those stages, we're meant to believe that there's something wrong with us.

SPEAKER_04 29:12

I'm gonna throw a huge curveball in here just to get us really uncomfortable for a second. All right. Right now, okay, here we go. Oh, and by the way, I'm literally having a hot flush. How okay, this is gonna be a little challenging for us all, but I'm gonna put it out there. How often have you talked to your partner about discharge?

SPEAKER_00 29:37

Okay, I'm actually not too bad at this.

SPEAKER_03 29:41

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 29:44

Oh, poor Connor. Oh yeah, he cops it. I'm pretty like pretty open with him about a lot of things. Um and it's I don't know what it started, you know, because we were together, I was 20, he was 19. I I I'd like to say it's because because we've been together since young, we've kind of grown up together a bit. But at the same time, you've got plenty of young couples out there where the young guy doesn't want to know anything about it. So I don't really know why we've just just been so open with each other about these kinds of things.

SPEAKER_04 30:26

How like how many of us then were like, ew, awkward?

SPEAKER_00 30:31

Like I mean, previously, I mean it's weird though, because I guess it depends on who I was talking to. Um like I guess initially, if I was talking to like even my best friend, I'd be like, oh, do we have to talk about this right now? I don't know. It's just weird, it's just out of Connor's the exception to the rule, apparently.

SPEAKER_04 30:57

So I get that right. However, my point in this is if we were told as young women, you know, when you're like, oh mum, what's this on my underwear or whatever, and they're like, no, that's actually really normal. That's that's your vulva doing what it needs to do, it needs to make sure it stays lubricated and clean and does all that type of stuff, and that's what that is. You wouldn't bat an eyelid if someone then picked up your knickers and went, Yeah, what's that? You're like, well, that's really normal, right? The language and the the the the felt sense of not it not being taboo and the felt sense of it being like, yeah, it's pretty normal, like would be fine.

SPEAKER_00 31:40

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 31:41

But how many of us had that discussion?

SPEAKER_00 31:44

Well, just like even going back to when we were trying to get pregnant, um, and my sister's a nurse, and she would be like, Well, what's what's your discharge like? Are you ovulating? I was like, Oh, why would I know that? And she was like, touch it. And I was like, I'm not touching it. Yeah, yeah. So, like, you know, back then it was like, Why would I do that? What do you mean?

SPEAKER_04 32:12

And that's part of the systemic issue of us almost well, with what's been indoctrinated in us to reject those things, to reject our vital experiences as a woman, rites of passage, all those types of things. That that that's where I feel all right, I know it comes from systemically, and it's just going on and on and on and on and on and expanding and expanding and expanding, right?

SPEAKER_00 32:40

Yeah, and it's just because I know we've spoken about it before. Um, you know, you've got uh PE, we call it in Australia with your sexual education that you always do, first term of year seven. Um but the like they they do teach you like anatomy and stuff, but it's more focused on how to not get pregnant, not focused on this is how your body works, this is how your cycle works, and especially like if you just put onto a pill, well then you just stop. You don't even need to think about it because the pill's doing it for you. And I remember Yeah, when we were trying to get pregnant, the doctor would be like, Well, when's your ovulation? And I was like, When is it supposed to be? I don't know. I don't know how any of it works. Because they yeah, it's like let's not educate them about how everything works, let's just make sure they don't make babies.

SPEAKER_04 33:39

I I also that that is because we've lost the connection between those, you know, we was talking about shepherding us through different spaces, it would have been the other maidens teaching, you know, the older maidens and the mothers teaching the young maidens about all of that type of stuff. So it's this this spiral of feminine knowledge that gets handed on and talked about early and doing all that. That I don't believe that that's the job of the education system. I believe that's the job of us, but how can we pass that knowledge on if it's not there, if we haven't been taught about it and talking about it? Like I I spoke about all of this stuff with my daughter. I I don't have an issue talking to her about her pleasure, making sure that she understands her pleasure is just as valid as his pleasure, and and talking all things feminine bits, if you like, and rites of passage. And so I feel like like she's she's yards ahead of where I was at that age. Not to say that my mum didn't do the best with what she had at the time, but it's this problem of missing knowledge, it's this problem of of us of reclaiming that uh the women's mysteries information for the purpose of us expanding um as women and helping our sisters, our our nieces, our all all the women, you know, even the women that have transitioned different rites of passage and never known about that. For them to, in my experience working with with women who've gone through a lot of these transitions and then they find out this information. Like I know one woman, really close friend of mine, is 70, and she learned about this stuff, and she's like, What the actual fuck? And then there was anger, yes, but then there was like this whole connect for thing where she it all just dropped in for her, and she's like, Oh, that makes sense, this makes sense, that falls in place, this falls in place, this resonation within her where she became at peace with herself because she was able to join all of those dots together, even at 70, and then continue for the rest of her life with that knowledge, knowing that she then now imparts all of that on her grandchildren, male and female, right? Because it's it's not just female topics. Yes, where there's feminine education there, but to make it a common language, it is in my house, like you know, my boys and I, we don't have so I've got two boys and a girl, you know, nothing is off the table. Boys' language is on the table, girls' language is on the table. We're talking, you know, doodles and scrodents, and we're talking vegas and discharge. We don't care, it all gets talked about in my house, but it I I wouldn't be common. My house wouldn't be a common space where that is all talked about, as far as I'm aware. It should be. Absolutely, absolutely, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:45

Yeah, 100%. Sorry, Caitlin. It's just so boring, and even in my 50s, I'd rather know now. Like I'm kind of with your girlfriend who's 70. Like, it's better late than never to have these conversations. And I don't have children, but I have nieces, friends, you know, friends, kids, people my age, older, and I feel like this should be really talked about. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 37:12

Not to mention your clients, right? Yeah. So, you know, this comes into when we talk about, you know, working with women, especially, but also men being aware of what's going on when they don't, they're not aware of how we roll monthly versus how they roll daily, right? Because they've got daily testosterone, peak, and trough, we've got monthly cycle, whether we're bleeding or following the moon. Yes, we've still got those cycles going on. Like these are key biological actions that are happening within us as men and women that are completely disregarded, they're completely overlooked. And then, you know, that next step up as women, we I talked to um Sandra about this. We're internally organized from such a young age with our cycle. Like, women can go their whole lives completely disassociated from their cycle. I'm like, it lives with you for 35 to 40 years. Like that'd kind of be like having, I don't know, a twin on your shoulder and never acknowledging that they're there, you know? Like, it feels insane when I say that, but it's a reality for so many women. Like, it it literally blows my mind.

SPEAKER_02 38:32

And I think through the conversation as well, as you were talking about, Patriarch, bringing us back to our feminine, I feel like we're so masculine. And even in the menopause space, you know, everyone's like, zero fucks given, zero fucks given. And you're like, it's such a masculine, yeah. You know, yeah, instead of being like, okay, let's and just really allow yourself to embody the feminine. Well, is it all fucks given, right?

SPEAKER_04 39:02

Yeah, it's all fucks given about me. You know it's like not that you gave zero fucks about yourself, but like it's actually really more about the whole, I'm I'm happy to settle in myself and give all fucks about myself for the purpose of figuring out where I sit now. Like I've I'm changing, I'm moving, and I'm I can either push against that and fight it all the way, you know, teeth grit the whole way, or I can actually look at that. Here's my big thing. I'll be interested to hear both your opinions or perspectives on this. I wonder if women were moving through this transition with so much knowledge, I wonder what the symptoms would look like differently. I wonder from a physiological space, would that change? And we're all we're hypothesizing here. Yeah. What's your thoughts on that, Sandra? I think it win. Yeah. What about you, Caitlin? The reason I ask this is you know when something's wrong physically with you and you don't know, and you you get anxious, right? And you get you get all funny about it, and then you're almost, or you are, creating it to be a bigger thing than it is. You might be having more symptoms that are non-related because that anxious stress hormone energy is kicking, this is where we go holistic, right? Is kicking in and manifesting stuff, right?

SPEAKER_02 40:37

Yeah, or you do know, yes, or you do know and you've labeled it, it's a thing, yeah. That becomes a bigger problem.

SPEAKER_00 40:47

Yeah, exactly. 100%.

SPEAKER_04 40:50

So if we're seeing uh menopause as a problem and symptoms, it's gonna be a problem, exactly, right? The problem bigger, right? But if we're seeing it through a different light, if we're actually approaching it at this informed space of what it actually is, I wonder what that looks like for symptoms, right? I wonder if the um nervous system is on board and we're regulating ourselves because we feel like we're creating those safe spaces for ourselves, going, it's okay, yes, I'm feeling this, but this is actually normal, um, which we see in spaces like birthing and other places, or even your cycle, right? I get it's normal for me to feel like I can't grasp my emotions as well as I normally can before I go into a cycle because it's part of the hormonal process. I get it. If we if we're able to regulate ourselves through that space, and then we stay in a place where we're more neutral, and I wonder what the symptoms look like then. I wonder you it doesn't mean that you're not going to experience shifts and changes physiologically, but I wonder the degree to what they look like. And then if I'm in a neutral space where I'm like, yes, this is part of it, I've got to move through this, da da da. Am I able to grab onto other resources that support me better? Because I feel I'm not going like, I'm just gonna get the fuck out of it. It's all this shit about right. I'm actually like, no, these things take the time they take. I need to, you know, stay in this neutral space. What else is coming up for me if we're educated and taught how to move into that portal change, right? Or uh we find women that can help us shepherd us through that space, right? And help us make a bit more sense of that for ourselves. What does it look like?

SPEAKER_02 42:54

Well, from personal experience, being so alone that it wasn't communicated, also knowing other people um before me that had actually gone through menopause and knowing what it did to their relationship, divorce, different things, um, and the language around it about crazy bitch. So as I was entering that space, I was holding on for dear life and just being like, okay, ride, ride the roller coaster. White knuckle. And like white knuckling myself instead of just being like, okay, this is can be a beautiful space to be in. Yeah, you have ebb and flow with um your emotions, that sort of thing. But having the resources, like you said, to really understand and to work through um the identity shift and the the changes that are happening would I I mean I can't even put a price on it.

SPEAKER_04 43:55

Yeah, true story.

SPEAKER_02 43:57

You know, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 43:58

Well, it it is invaluable, isn't it? Right. Yeah, absolutely. What are your thoughts, Caitlin?

SPEAKER_00 44:04

Because you know you are the youngest, so I'm certainly the biggest manifester in the role way. Because I can think myself into a stomachache. Like so, talking about if we're putting labels on things, if I'm telling myself I'm gonna feel like this, I'm already putting it out there, and then if I do feel like that, it feels ten times worse. And because I've worked myself up about it, stressing about it. Yeah, so yeah, if we can take some labels off of things and stop making it seem so scary and negative, then yeah, like you said, we can just ride the wave and and not fight it so hard. Why do you think we've lost the feminine education?

SPEAKER_04 45:05

Well, I mean, first port of call 6,000 years ago into the patriarchy. I don't have to that's my, you know, that's the first port of call I go to. Um, and then everything that that has has the effects of that have spread a long way. So, you know, I think it's a whole other podcast to go into what our her story is about, but for me, that's that's I feel like that's where it that's where the the cord was broken and then it was systematically repressed, reframed, and put into a place where we were disempowered. So I would go as far to say that if you look at all of our rites of passage and the things that you know appear problematic to society, flip them on the head and that's the way they're supposed to be.

SPEAKER_02 46:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 46:01

You know, that's what where I think I also think the the change in our society, we're not set up the way that we used to be. So we're not um we're not going to the red tent when we met the moon lodge when we menstruate and we we're exchanging knowledge and learning from the elders and the and so on, and you know, welcoming the new women in. And so because those bonds have been broken, then the knowledge is not being passed. And um I that's where I that I feel that feminine education is lost, and now there's a shift coming. There's been a shift for a while. The feminine is on the rise again in that space, but I feel as though there's a there's a global feminine amnesia. So when you start to talk about this type of stuff, we start to pull up really interesting labels like it's woo-woo, or you know, or she's just a hippie. And I think that's part of the hangover effect from everything that's happened. But it's like actually, as soon as a woman sits and learns about this type of stuff, there's a reclamation that happens, and you can't explain it, you just feel it, and you're like, oh, why does this make so much sense internally to me, even though I haven't known it, I feel like I have somewhere. It's like a reawakening, a reseeding of something ancient and something that just deeply resonates and makes sense, right?

SPEAKER_02 47:43

To the feminine psyche and peace, yes, you just feel this calm and this peace rather than this turmoil because you're so in the masculine or not having the knowledge of what actually is. I mean, we shouldn't know that's happening with our body, you know, like yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 48:06

The only one I've had all you know, my body is my temple, temples look different, mass male temples look different to female temples, right? There's different biology there, we're made up differently. Yeah, what's the problem with that? It's just that we've been taught to push it away. Exactly. Well, exactly. Then there is a problem. I don't know how what do you think about the the lost feminine education?

SPEAKER_02 48:37

I mean, exactly what you said, and I feel like there needs to be a shift. 100%. I feel like listen to the podcast, share the podcast, start the conversation, um, learn as much as you can because we should be empowered. As women, enough is enough, and we should really just be able to be empowered and find our place in the world and not be um made to feel guilt or shame or anything because we are a woman.

SPEAKER_04 49:10

Or aggressive about it, either, right? Like that we need to fight, you know. Yeah. I mean, there's been times in our history where we have, but I believe that we're in a space where that's been done.

SPEAKER_02 49:24

We don't I feel like this feel for me, I feel like the shift coming feels peaceful, it feels empowered, but like not in the masculine. Not our just this beautiful coming together of women in in the feminine, like in our feminine, yeah, definitely, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 49:50

So Sandra, if we could imagine going back, because you were quite young when you started going through metaphors, if you had had the knowledge younger, and also if we didn't have the labels and the stereotypes and stuff, what do you think your experience would have been like going through the transition, having the knowledge, but also everybody else having the knowledge?

SPEAKER_02 50:21

I think it would have been a beautiful transition um with not having the expectation of what I either witnessed or what people said. I think that having other people, like a support system of people to have talked about it, to ask questions, to share how I was feeling. I mean, I went to a really deep depression. Yeah, right. You know, like my body changed so much. Um mentally, physically. I just the brain fog, like I just felt in a really dark place. Yeah, it was just like all I can say is it felt really dark and not good.

SPEAKER_04 51:08

It's so interesting. You say you talk about the depression and the body shift. Like for me, I am in the belly fat era where we've talked about this before, and I think I've talked to Caitlin about it as well. Where is it coming from, right? I don't understand. Um, but it's part of the shift. I do understand, right? I understand that hormones are changing, things are shifting, all the all those things. I feel like I could go into a deep depressive state if I wasn't informed and if I didn't feel so happy and welcoming for the transition. Because there are days where I look in the mirror and go, seriously, like that could get on top of me, right? Because it's so far removed from what I'm used to and where I'm used to being.

SPEAKER_02 52:04

Absolutely. And I was in a newer relationship, which I'm still in. But um, you know, that that going from, you know, being fit and smaller and just being like, I mean, I was doing every workout program you could think of, measuring, doing all the different things I could think of, and it just kept coming on. And I and for me, I was it just felt like what the actual Fox. Yeah, I was like, what the Fox. Um and you know, and that was that's hard on a relationship, actually. You know, and um it's just this it just felt heavy and dark being that I couldn't share that with anyone to feel like I was gonna come out on the other side okay. I when you're in it, you're in it. And so I was grasping at anything to get myself out of it and then add in the external people's comments um that I'm being crazy, I'm a bit, or looking at me sideways because I put on so much weight, um, just made me go deeper rather than being having people to lift me up and be like, you we've got you, you're gonna be okay. Yeah, you know?

SPEAKER_04 53:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:25

That's that's that's big. That's huge. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:30

If menopause is inviting us into something, how do we meet that invitation? How do we move with it instead of resisting it?

SPEAKER_04 53:42

Okay, so I think it's hard to meet that invitation if you're uninformed, like if you haven't been privy to understanding there is other, there's another story going on here. There's another, well, we talked about the 1575, right? The 15 is is you know the body, and then the 75% is all that emotional psychological work. If you don't, if you if you're not aware that that other 75% exists, I think it's really challenging to be able to meet that as an invitation because all you're hearing is symptoms, symptoms, symptoms, symptoms, you're not hearing about the other stuff, right?

SPEAKER_02 54:25

And and you're also in it, so you're like having this internal battle with yourself of like I'm not okay, but feeling like, well, hang on a second, like I'm feeling like you're you're feeling different. Like I it's hard to put language around it, but you just are feeling this shift happening, and then you're like, wait, I'm changing, and and like I said, people's reactions really contributed to be like, okay, maybe I need to stay where I was, but then you have this internal battle, like this almost inner knowing that you can't be in that space anymore. Well the transition.

SPEAKER_04 55:09

Kicking and screaming, yeah. If you don't have definitely. So I think uh that could be challenging for for women um to meet it as an invitation, but if that's diff if if they're hearing this or this is being spread, or they're hearing it from somewhere else, and this is a confirmation that there's more, how we meet it is an invitation, is how we frame it. Is is going there and saying, all right, like there's these components, but there's also these components. What is this asking of me? How can I lean into this and make this uh for my highest good and my most like it's it's not something that's going away. So, how do I want to approach this? What's the and this is for me on a multi-tiered level? Like, I remember saying to someone, I'm in my puffer fish, puff, puffer fish stage the other day, because I go and then I shrink back down, and then I go up, and then I shrink back down. And I asked myself, this is a really simple way of looking at it, I asked myself, does that actually serve me to speak like that about myself? Right, to actually speak like that about myself. So I then stop doing it. I'm like, no, I'm not gonna say that anymore. I'm just gonna say, you know, I'm working with my body. I'm working with my body's changes. So it's this constant mini invitations when each little next thing comes up is how am I gonna approach this? What am I gonna do with this? Oh, I keep feeling that like I'm really lethargic. Okay, well, I I'm gonna have to look into that. Maybe I need to get some blood work done. Maybe I need to know where my baseline is. Okay, cool. Did that help? Maybe it did, maybe it didn't. All right, maybe I'm gonna talk to other people I know that have been through the transition. Did you feel fatigue? What did you find worked best for you? So I'm not gonna sit like a victim and go, uh, this is terrible. I'm gonna actually engage in the process and consistently in small, tiny little steps each way of the journey, invite myself to look at something differently or ask myself what it's asking of me, or recognize that most women, once they understand that this is a rite of passage, will do some type of transpersonal work through this period. And it's actually really normal to do that either on their own or with some type of you know, coach or therapist or shepherdess or whatever they do, whatever that looks like for them, it's actually really normal to be transitioning a space of identity shift and change and asking lots of different things of yourself. That's how I would meet it as an invitation, and that's how I'd move through with it and lean into it as opposed to resisting it.

SPEAKER_00 58:06

That's just yeah, so Joe, you've got you've got your anti-rose program that you're running. Um, how do spaces like that and other programs around play a part in helping women navigate not just the physical transition, which is not the whole part of it, but the identity shift that's unfolding beneath that physical?

SPEAKER_04 58:31

Well, I think and she rose especially, or any other transpersonal program or work with somebody, I'd have to look at what anybody else was set up, but I'll speak for um and she rose and some other one-on-one work that I offer. It's it is set up so that women, because I don't need to do the physical stuff. There's a lot of people out there already ticking that box so well, right? We talk about those physical elements, but I don't need to address them. I'm I'm addressing the 75%. I'm addressing um I'm normalizing it. I'm giving them the tools and the strategies to do that deep inquiry, to understand where they sit, to understand what identity shift they're moving through, to understand what's important to them next. So it's it's all the framework and the tools and the strategies so that then after they do something like that, they can go away and do it themselves. They don't need to the hand, but I'm there for support, should they want it, but they're also empowered to do it themselves. For me, I'm like a tool's no good if you don't use it, right? Tool left on the shelf is useless. Yeah. I teach tools and frameworks and systems that are feminine-based that can be reused over and over again at lots of different um intersections, rites of passage, and um life-changing moments where they can be empowered to empower themselves to move through those spaces.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:07

And I'd like to add, and others.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:09

Yes, and others, and others, yes, yes, definitely others, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:16

Before we finish up, I'd like to ask you both one final question. We call it Joe's Nugget. Sandra might have a nugget.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:30

She does.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:32

Sure she does. Okay. If every young woman could leave this space today, understanding just one truth about metaphors, something you wish every woman knew long before she ever arrived at this threshold, what would it be?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:52

First that comes to mind is it is such a beautiful place to be. It's a beautiful, peaceful place to be. I think on the other side where I am. Um, and again, we could go back to like the understanding. I'm I'm with the right support and understanding. Oh my gosh, it is it's just it's beautiful. Like I said, this is like the I feel like I'm in the best years of my life.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:28

I would say being on not the side that Sandra's at yet, um, I would say that the one truth I would like every young woman to know about menopause is that it's valid and necessary and super important. So there's three things they're not like that it's normal. That I would like to normalize that, normalize that for women to go. It's it's just so important. It's an important transition, just like all of our other transitions in life. It's just as important as as the other ones we sort of discussed today, yeah. And that she's not alone.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:15

I'm gonna add to that, um, to my nugget, is to approach it with curiosity rather than expectation or resistance. Resistance, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:28

I think that's really good. So our nuggets have yeah, some out to bigger nuggets.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:33

I've almost got like a full meal going on with all these nuggets.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:37

One thing is one nugget. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:53

So as usual, it was such a pleasure to be a part of another deep and meaningful conversation. And it was so fun to have you, Sandra, with us today. Well with Joe physically and me, spiritually online.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:11

Absolutely. Thank you so much for joining us, Sandra. It's been a pleasure and a deep dive. Thanks again to Caitlin, who always brings us back to a great baseline and keeps us moving in the right direction. And thank you to all of our listeners out there. Please share, like, subscribe, do the things, yeah. Because the more we talk, the more you talk, the more we um create a movement. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:41

Yeah, supporting you, supporting your friends, supporting your daughters, everybody.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:48

Supporting women everywhere, yes. Start with one conversation.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:52

That's exactly right. That's exactly right. Firstly, a deep thank you to our guests today for their honesty, wisdom, and the courage to have those real conversations. If something's landed for you today, don't brush it off. That pull you feel, it's your next edge calling. If you'd like to explore working with me, hit me up on my socials or on my website at joannlee.com.au. Until next time, keep showing up for yourself because you're worth it. With love. Joe.