Ep 5. Matthew Roberts: Agent; Representation emails, getting in the room & Billy Elliot Auditions 👀

Hosted by Charlotte Neale. In this week's episode we talk to Agent Matthew Roberts. From how to send a representation email, to life behind an agents eyes. All the inside scoop that performers might not know!! 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:10

Hi everyone and welcome back to Life in the Wings podcast. This week I am joined by the gorgeous Matthew Roberts, and this is where I do a round of applause with my huge studio audience that I don't have. Welcome to the podcast.

SPEAKER_02 0:26

Thank you so much. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_01 0:27

No, you are more than welcome. How are you today?

SPEAKER_02 0:30

I'm very well, thank you. The weather's a lot nicer today. This week is it's looking good. It's looking positive. So we're getting into those summer days. Literally. I'm there for it. The short sleeve tops have come out.

SPEAKER_01 0:41

So we're in our summer outfits, guys. So straight in, we are going to start off with uh quickfire questions.

SPEAKER_03 0:47

Great.

SPEAKER_01 0:48

Uh what I like to call the aka 16 bar cart. Which we're all very used to. Um okay, right, quickfire. Are you ready?

SPEAKER_02 0:58

I'm ready. Hit me.

SPEAKER_01 0:59

Self-tape or in-room auditions?

SPEAKER_02 1:01

In room audition.

SPEAKER_01 1:02

Nice. Theatre or TV?

SPEAKER_02 1:03

Theatre.

SPEAKER_01 1:04

New talent or established talent.

SPEAKER_02 1:06

New talent.

SPEAKER_01 1:07

Ooh, I like that. Uh spotlight profile profile or show real first.

SPEAKER_02 1:13

Spotlight.

SPEAKER_01 1:14

Okay. Emails or phone calls?

SPEAKER_02 1:16

Email.

SPEAKER_01 1:17

First preview or press night.

SPEAKER_02 1:19

Press night.

SPEAKER_01 1:20

Yeah. West End or fringe?

SPEAKER_02 1:22

Fringe nice.

SPEAKER_01 1:23

And just for a fun one sweet or savory.

SPEAKER_02 1:25

Oh, sweet. Every time.

SPEAKER_01 1:26

I'm such a savory girl. Every time. A bag of crisps, just can't go and miss it. Sweet popcorn. My god. Oh no, I'm sorry. I'm a soldier. Yeah, I am. Come on. So let's get straight into it. Okay, hit me. So you are Matthew Roberts, if you didn't know.

SPEAKER_02 1:40

My God, what? It's happened.

SPEAKER_01 1:43

It's happened. And you are the director and head agent at Roberts and Day Management.

SPEAKER_02 1:50

Congratulations, Festival.

SPEAKER_01 1:52

We've just had the is it the 10-year anniversary?

SPEAKER_02 1:56

10 years this weekend. Well weekend just been.

SPEAKER_01 1:58

That's crazy. Yeah, you're telling me. Has that flew by?

SPEAKER_02 2:01

Um yeah, it has. But also no. But when I look back, I'm like, oh my gosh, like 10 years. Yeah. I remember like bits of the whole thing. Yeah. I'm like, wow, that is wild.

SPEAKER_01 2:11

So let's go back to the beginning. You were. I got down that you were a child performer.

SPEAKER_02 2:19

I was. Is this correct? This is correct.

SPEAKER_01 2:22

What were you in as a child?

SPEAKER_02 2:23

I so I I'm from Leeds originally. Um, and I went to, I think it was when I was in primary school, um, basically a dance teacher from the local dance school came in and got us involved. Um, and then someone from Leeds choir came in and basically said, Look, we're auditioning boys, we're gonna start a boys' choir. It's like paid.

SPEAKER_03 2:44

Yeah. Oh, a paid choir.

SPEAKER_02 2:46

Being the little grafter that I was. I was like, go on. Any chance, 50 quid a week. Go on. Um 50 quid a week.

SPEAKER_00 2:53

I'm dead. You're like, I'm minted.

SPEAKER_02 2:55

I'm minted. Um yeah, so I auditioned, I got it. Um so I started doing choir with them. I did that until I was like 16, but through the process of it, I did like the dance school and then joined Scala, which I guess is a bit like Sylvia Young or something like that when you were. Where like young performers go to.

SPEAKER_01 3:12

Did you do school as well there?

SPEAKER_02 3:13

Yeah, so I did no, so I did like normal school. Oh, okay, fine. Um, and then this was like on the evenings. Oh, nice, nice, nice. Um, and then I started auditioning for Bits and Bobs. Um, yeah, and that's kind of how I broke into the wonderful world of performing.

SPEAKER_01 3:28

Nice. And you trained at the School of Creative Arts. Yeah. Is that in Leeds?

SPEAKER_02 3:32

No, in Blackpool. So I' Blackpool, that's so rogue. Rogue, I know. So I auditioned down, I like came down to London. Yeah. Obviously, being from Leeds, I had never been to London before.

SPEAKER_01 3:42

So at that age, it's like a scary place, right? Are you 18 at this point?

SPEAKER_02 3:46

Uh yeah, I would have been. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 17, 18. Okay. Um, so I was like coming down to London for the first time, seeing London and going, Oh my gosh. Uh this is the dream. Literally. And I came down with my mum and auditioned for Mount View, GSA, Arts Ed, and I think Erdang. I got offers for all of them. Oh. But I didn't get a scholarship.

SPEAKER_03 4:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:09

So I've been there. Yeah, I've got two brothers and we were quite a working class family. So could not afford it.

SPEAKER_01 4:16

I was literally the same. I auditioned for like three years in a row, and I got in every time, but I just never got a scholarship or got funding. So I wasn't able to go.

SPEAKER_02 4:24

Oh, it's I mean, yeah, they're fantastic schools, don't get me wrong. And it's lovely to work with them now, but back then couldn't afford it, so um kind of like readjusted. And to be honest, I wasn't actually sure if performing and creativity was really what I wanted to do.

SPEAKER_01 4:39

Oh, was it just kind of a thing that I just knew I was a hobby and kind of you didn't look back type thing?

SPEAKER_02 4:45

I pretty much wasn't very good at anything else, and I knew I could perform. I'm sure that's not true. You didn't see my like GCSE results. So um I knew I wasn't academic in that way, but I knew I enjoyed performing. Yeah. Um I wanted to be in like a boy band, like in a rock band. Oh, was that your like that was my thing? That was your dream job. I was like, I'm gonna go be a rock star somewhere. Oh wow. Um so then obviously didn't do that, went off to do um audition to like Blackpool, Bath, and somewhere else. Yeah, got offers for those as well. But I really enjoyed Blackpool and I just really got on with the people there. I was like, it's good fun, it's simple, it didn't cost as much.

SPEAKER_01 5:20

Sometimes it's not about going to like the most well-known school, it's just about the vibe that you get when you're there. Like, as long as I think whatever training facility you're at, as long as you give it 100% and you get what you want out of it, then there's no difference from going to our side from going to this place. Like, do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 5:39

Yeah, like there was definitely now I'm down the line, I can kind of look back and reflect, but there was bits if I had gone to one of those bigger ones, I would probably have got industry contacts things a lot earlier, more exposure. But I would have also probably been like lost in the crowd of very talented people down there. Whereas actually in Blackpool, I kind of excelled because I was and was it a smaller college as well?

SPEAKER_01 6:02

So like there was it was like less people in a year.

SPEAKER_02 6:04

Yeah, there was like 30 people in our year, like and probably about five boys.

SPEAKER_01 6:08

And nowadays there's like I've heard there's like 200 and something per year at colleges.

SPEAKER_02 6:13

But yes, there are.

SPEAKER_01 6:14

We'll put a pin in that.

SPEAKER_02 6:16

That's an issue for another day.

SPEAKER_01 6:18

So you went to drama school and you graduated, and when did you graduate?

SPEAKER_02 6:23

2015.

SPEAKER_01 6:24

2015. And I got here that you graduated and went into the return of Neverlands.

SPEAKER_02 6:30

I did. I had a great time on that show. That was a UK tour, right? Yeah, UK tour.

SPEAKER_01 6:34

How long was the UK tour?

SPEAKER_02 6:36

Uh six months. Nice.

SPEAKER_01 6:38

Oh, that's a really lovely amount of time.

SPEAKER_02 6:39

It was really nice. And for someone who'd had no real like prop proper performing experience, like so I I signed with Simon and Howe um in second year. Yeah. In second year? Yeah, I was a very I was a grafter.

SPEAKER_01 6:53

Like was that was that you being cheeky?

SPEAKER_02 6:55

Yeah, I just started knocking on doors and it was like hello, can I take that?

SPEAKER_01 6:58

Oh, so you've like had that mindset.

SPEAKER_02 7:00

Oh yeah. I was like, I'm at I'm at Blackpool, I know I'm not gonna be as exposed as those people. I'm gonna have an agent by the time I get into third year.

SPEAKER_01 7:08

Wow. Um unreal.

SPEAKER_02 7:09

So I had like my five.

SPEAKER_01 7:10

You're like agent showcase who?

SPEAKER_02 7:12

Agent showcase who. To be honest, I also didn't really realise that was a thing that we did in third year. So I was just like, I'm gonna go for it.

SPEAKER_01 7:18

I love that. Not you, first day of training, right? Where's my agent? Where's my agent?

SPEAKER_02 7:21

I've got to get started. I love that. Um but I yeah, I signed with Marcus Ellard, who was fantastic, um, who now works at Artset, I think. And uh JBR, who is also now his own agent, which is JBR Creative. Um incredible agent and lovely human being. Nice. Um, and they basically taught me everything I know now about agenting and all of that sort of stuff. So they're fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 7:46

At that point, you were learning how to be an agent, but I guess you were interested at that point. Yeah. Because I've got down here as well, like you've done you've done a lot of things as a performer. Busy B. Busy B. Like you uh you've done like Matthew Bourne, Princess Cruises, Kunard, NCL, Warner Brothers, like you were pretty successful.

SPEAKER_02 8:04

It was good.

SPEAKER_01 8:05

That was successful, actually.

SPEAKER_02 8:06

I just sort of set out with the thing of I want to be on a stage.

SPEAKER_01 8:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:09

But the problem was then I kind of ticked that off. So then once I'd achieved the dream, I never really wanted to do West End. I wasn't first.

SPEAKER_01 8:17

This conversation, I that's so funny. I actually had this conversation this morning with my friend because we have this we all have our concept of our dreams, right? And we're like West End, UK tour, this, these like big milestones, whatever that may be. What if when you hit it you're like, right? Do you know what I mean? Like, is is is that it? And which is why I find it really important to have a life outside of this industry because I am I've not been on the West End, but I'm assuming that when you hit that goal, you open the first night, you wake up the next day, your life is still the same.

SPEAKER_02 8:57

Yeah, you're still the same person.

SPEAKER_01 8:58

Yeah, so you need to enjoy that. And my one of my biggest fears is, and I don't think it will happen because I do have a lot of love for performing, but one of my biggest fears is like, oh my gosh, what if I achieve my dream? And then I'm like, was that it? But do you know what I mean? Like, not design ungrateful, but like we we pin so much of our drive onto reaching that point. Yeah, that what if and I guess like that's not a negative thing because no, no, no at all.

SPEAKER_02 9:24

I like worked so hard to do the performing stuff, but I think it was probably about halfway through doing Jersey Boys where I was like doing the same thing. It was a point on stage where I was sort of stood at the back doing something, maybe the table. Um, and yeah, stage manager extraordinaire, and um I was just like this isn't it. I'm not feeling it anymore. Like I'm not I'm not getting that buzz. And I also felt a sense of guilt because I knew how many other people wanted it, yeah, and I was there doing it, and I was like, eh, I could I could walk away tomorrow and not be fussed.

SPEAKER_01 9:57

Really? But I also feel it's really important to acknowledge that you don't need to feel guilty for feeling that. I understand why you did, but also you didn't know you were gonna feel that going into it, and like it's not as it's not an easy decision as to be like, okay, I don't want to do this anymore, I'm gonna drop out tomorrow. Like, you know what I mean? Like, but it's good that you acknowledge that you were like, Oh, something's not sitting right, and I feel like maybe someone else would prefer to be in my place. Yeah. So is that so is that the moment that you were like agency being an agent?

SPEAKER_02 10:31

That was probably the moment I said agency full time, but the agency when I was doing Jersey Boys had probably been running for about four or five years before that. So I started it fairly early on. Um, so it started in 2016, obviously.

SPEAKER_01 10:46

Um, and so were you still performing when you were an agent?

SPEAKER_02 10:50

Yeah, yeah, when I very first started.

SPEAKER_01 10:52

So you opened up Robertson Day. Still performing.

SPEAKER_02 10:56

Still performing, yeah, yeah, yeah. Still doing the performing graft and all the rest of it.

SPEAKER_01 11:01

Oh, while still represented by your own agency.

SPEAKER_02 11:04

Yeah, so I always kept it separate. I had like a separate stage name and everything, so there was never a point where it would There would be like a crossover. Yeah, who wouldn't even know? Which is hilarious when you go in an audition room and someone's like Patrick, and I'm like, God, it's Patrick Burton. Hurry up, man. Come on, where is he? What's he doing?

SPEAKER_01 11:18

So funny.

SPEAKER_02 11:19

It was me. I was Patrick.

SPEAKER_01 11:20

He was Patty.

SPEAKER_02 11:21

It was me. Oh keeping it separate really worked, but it allowed the it allowed the agency to grow naturally rather than forcing it to then go, we need 200 clients to be able to sustain this. Yes. So it meant actually.

SPEAKER_01 11:38

Yeah, you were able to nurture it a bit more and it wasn't your sole focus, so it organically happened.

SPEAKER_02 11:45

Yeah, it meant that we weren't just taking on loads of people and then um pushing them out to casting directors. It meant that we could kind of like take a bit of time with it.

SPEAKER_01 11:55

So how do you go from being a performer to being an agent? How do you where do you start? Like how you've you've got the agency set up, you've got the name, you've got your people you're that you're collaborating with. Where do you start by building a client list?

SPEAKER_02 12:12

Yeah, um, so I think uh there's a lot of agencies that are popping up at the minute and probably have been for a while. So fair play to them. Um I think like the I was very lucky because my dad had his own business, so I learned a lot about business law and contract law and employment law through him. Um because that is part of it. Like you need to know employment rights and all the rest of it.

SPEAKER_01 12:36

Paperwork?

SPEAKER_02 12:37

Uh paperwork is key. Um and then I got some really good advice from my head of year when I was probably in like second or third year. Um, actually, I think it was first year. First year. I emailed him in summer and I said, Hey, um, what can I do to keep improving and developing in these like summer breaks? Yeah. And he was like, Wow, of course.

SPEAKER_01 12:59

You were really focused. Such a brown nose. I did not have that mentality when I was at college. I was like, there for the social. Like, I'm literally like, guys, what are you doing tonight? In my body class.

SPEAKER_02 13:10

What we're doing. I mean, that was me on a Thursday night, like yeah, revs every Thursday.

SPEAKER_00 13:16

Revolutions, that's a throwback.

SPEAKER_02 13:17

Pop world as well. That's a throwback.

SPEAKER_00 13:20

That is a throwback.

SPEAKER_02 13:21

Not a good throwback.

SPEAKER_00 13:23

Did your pop world have a poll as well?

SPEAKER_02 13:24

Yeah, yeah, like multiple poles. And this was like this was like multiple poles. This is Blackpool pop world as well. So you could just imagine.

SPEAKER_00 13:31

God, I'm scared.

SPEAKER_02 13:33

It's character building.

SPEAKER_00 13:34

Yes, I can imagine. But it's character. Oh my gosh. Um we digress.

SPEAKER_02 13:39

We do. Oh, yeah. So he he gave me some advice, and it was basically go away and learn everything you can about this industry. Yeah, break it down, theatre, TV, film, whatever it is, and just learn as much as you possibly can about producers, casting directors, what's coming up, what's happened. Um, and that mentality is something that I've kind of just kept going throughout, up right up until now, and we'll keep doing. Um, because it's continuously changing, and you know, one casting director will go and then another one will come along and you should know all about them. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:11

You know, like there's lots to know about in this industry, isn't it? It's very hard, it's quite hard to keep up.

SPEAKER_02 14:15

You're kind of always looking into the future as well. So like the new Game of Thrones um show that the RSC are doing. Like I'd kind of heard wind of it like three or four months ago, and then it's just been in the back of my mind just thinking about it. Because then you're looking at what performers could work well for that X, Y, and Z. Can we reach out to Amy Ball, who's the casting director, like beforehand, um, and have a chat with her and be like, Is your brain just like constantly ticking? Like, does it ever like I have a very lovely team of agents who who Chloe is part of, um who are fantastic, and probably when it first started, it was just me for quite a while. Um, and then um I had a few people kind of come on as interns or like coming on for a little bit. Yeah, and then I had my very first prop person was a guy called Scott Nickel, who's now um he works at Blackburn Entertainment. Shout out, Scott. And um he came on and worked with me for a while. Um COVID happened, he left to go join Blackburn, and then Adam came on board. Yes. Um, and that was the start of the Adam Lines era. The Adam Lines era Adam Lines era um, and I sort of said it on that whole ten-year post thing, but like I know, that was really lovely. They are genuinely they have given me the ability to have a work-life balance because before I would be it was all hard. Literally, like I wouldn't stop. Um, and like a bit of that's self-inflicted, like I probably could have taken a break, but you feel bad then because you're like in charge of pushing other people's careers. You don't want to be like single, I'm not doing it.

SPEAKER_01 15:46

Yeah, but then also you have to have that, you have to have that work-life balance.

SPEAKER_02 15:50

Oh my god, you do.

SPEAKER_01 15:51

And and it's difficult because like you said, like you have probably have that want to, oh my god, like I shouldn't be sitting here at like seven o'clock at night just having a cup of tea. Like, I should be like on the but actually, no, you should be.

SPEAKER_02 16:01

Oh, yeah, yeah. You should be.

SPEAKER_01 16:03

Because like that's why I think it's really important to have because a lot of people work from home now from COVID. And I always say, like, if you are like working from home, have a space that's separate to your living space, or like make sure you stick to okay, I'm gonna do 10 till five, and then like absolutely put it down. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that's super important. Which is super important.

SPEAKER_02 16:21

Yeah, we're lucky that we've got the office space and stuff, but it yeah, I still work from home and it's sometimes hard to kind of separate that work life balance. But no, everyone who so I've got Adam, Chloe, Dane, and Rodney, and they're all fantastic. So unreal. The most unreal team behind you. They're fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 16:39

What are your thoughts on because I know back in the day everyone had this mentality that like you have to go to drama school, that's like the way to go, like there's no other way. Do you still find that that's the main route that people take, or do you find that that is changing?

SPEAKER_02 16:56

Uh it's still the main route, but I think a lot more sort of vocational or part-time courses have come up, which are really good. Yeah. And it allows people who maybe have discovered acting or want to move into this industry later in life the chance to do it because you know, traditionally drama school three years full-time. Yeah. If you've got kids or a a house or whatever, it's just not a few years ago. You need a job, like still, or you know, you need to be there for your family, so you can't then spend every single day in a ballet class, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 17:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:28

Um, so there are some really fantastic vocational sort of ones that have come up that are doing that. Equally though, there are some really good, especially within the acting world, maybe less so musical theatre, but acting-wise, where they're just naturally very good actors and good storytellers, yeah, and maybe do like a local drama thing or something like that.

SPEAKER_01 17:47

Some people just actually have it.

SPEAKER_02 17:48

Yeah, I mean, literally, if you watched um did you see Adolescence?

SPEAKER_01 17:51

Oh, I knew you were gonna say that. Owen Cooper. Yeah, yeah, just has it.

SPEAKER_02 17:54

Like, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 17:56

Like lit.

SPEAKER_02 17:56

Him and Stephen Graham are just gonna take over the world. Yeah, yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_01 18:00

Is there another one coming out, Adolescence 2?

SPEAKER_02 18:02

I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 18:03

I think there is, which is really good because we digress again. But he was on an interview when it first came out, and I remember him saying, Is it it's the was a boy called Jamie? Is that his name? I think it was. Yeah, um, I remember him saying that like everyone was like, Is there a number two coming out? And he was like, No, there isn't because that is Jamie's story, and we we feel like we it doesn't develop from there, but I think there is a number two coming out.

SPEAKER_02 18:28

But Netflix like money, so yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:30

So then I'm like that's really weird as a director to like publicly announce no, like we feel that like that is Jamie's story and it doesn't develop from there or from another point of view, to then be like, actually, we are gonna do another one. Because now I'm like, What is that for money?

SPEAKER_02 18:43

Well, Stephen Graham's got his fingers in many pies, doesn't he?

SPEAKER_01 18:46

Oh yeah, he's that man is he's dipping his toes in many waters.

SPEAKER_02 18:49

We all know there's a bit more peaky blinders coming around the corner at some point. Have you not?

SPEAKER_01 18:53

Uh honestly, ask me if I've seen anything it's always no. Really? Yeah, I'm so I'm so bad with telling. What's the um what's the one where they all have brummy accents? Peaky blinders. Is that peaky blinders? Off Peaky Blinders. I was gonna say No, I was literally I was literally gonna say, my friend, because my mum and dad are Brummy, and my friend voice noted me the other day to say, Charlotte, I'm watching this programme and I literally just can't unsee your mum and dad. And they said you would really enjoy it. So it is Peaky Blinders. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, that's a sign that I need to watch.

SPEAKER_02 19:28

It's fantastic. Download it, watch it. Okay, change it.

SPEAKER_01 19:30

I mean I'm not doing that. Um how when an actor is looking for representation, I imagine you get multiple emails for representation. Do you have a chance to look at them all? If you do, if you don't, what for you personally makes some someone, something stand out in that email? Or do you know what I mean? Because I feel like sometimes we come out of drama school and we're looking for I remember when I because I graduated in 2017, I struggled to get an agent when I first graduated. I felt like because you're you are just sending a cold email.

SPEAKER_02 20:08

Oh my god, yeah, yeah. It's just reaching out and I hoping.

SPEAKER_01 20:12

I got no responses, yeah. Like literally like none, which is fine because I'm sure they like get so many emails. But yeah, what for for in your opinion, what is the perfect email?

SPEAKER_02 20:25

Um, yeah, you're right, we do get a lot. Um it's a tricky one because like so this morning I was trying to clear out our representation folder and failing the floor.

SPEAKER_01 20:37

Oh, so you have a folder?

SPEAKER_02 20:38

Yeah, so we use tag rep, which is part of Tagmin. So you can apply through that. It's basically just like a big email folder.

SPEAKER_01 20:43

But it's all stuff that I don't have a clear.

SPEAKER_02 20:46

Honestly, well, when I first started, it was literally just an email folder, which was carnage. Um, but yeah, so I think things that make it stand out are know what you want as a performer. So rather than just being like, I want to do musical theatre or I want to be an actor, say like, oh, I've seen, you know, I've I've seen the new Stephen Knight project is casting. I know the casting director, and I would love to be seen by them. I've already reached out to them myself, and then it just shows me, oh, they actually care. And they know who they are, they know they're casting offering and they know what they've got to offer. Equally, like, you know, musical theatre-wise, if you're an actor singer or a singer-actor or a singer actor museo, are you probably going to be going for cats or starlight? Maybe not. So then just say that in your email and be like, look, this is my strength. Because there are look, you know, Benjamin Button, um, choir of man, come from away, all those things you could be seen for. But like, I don't know that unless you write out of the state.

SPEAKER_01 21:42

Interesting. So you think it's good to just straight away introduce who they are and know what cast in bracket they like.

SPEAKER_02 21:49

So this is who I am. This is a bit about me, where you've trained, if you're at drama school or whatever, put all that in there, literally a couple of lines.

SPEAKER_01 21:55

Yeah, 'cause I've heard that you want to keep it short and sweet. Short and sweet. We don't want essays. No.

SPEAKER_02 22:00

War and peace I do not need. Yeah. Yeah. A little bit about you and then a little bit about what you want. So hello, who I am, what I want, and then what have you been doing to achieve that already.

SPEAKER_01 22:13

And do you think it's good as well to do you like the fact if someone mentions why they specifically want to be represented by your agency? Or is that not yeah?

SPEAKER_02 22:24

I mean, it's it's almost like the like extra little secret source on the end. Yeah. Just like a little one line of just little bit of ice insurance. I saw one of your clients, or I've seen they've been casting that, and that's something I'd like to do.

SPEAKER_01 22:35

Could you I bet you could probably tell what's a copy and pasted email to like a generic agency.

SPEAKER_02 22:40

I I was always taught that I don't, you know what? I gen I know how long those emails take to write. So I don't mind if you've got a template and you're like that is my template, the middle bit stays the same, but I'm going to tweak some bits. But for the love of God, if you're going to tweak the bits, tweak the bits.

SPEAKER_00 22:55

Imagine if you've got to be.

SPEAKER_02 22:56

Because sometimes I've had people and they're like, Oh, I've seen your client in that. I'm like, and I've responded to being like, I'm sure they are fantastic. And I have also seen them in that, but I don't look after that.

SPEAKER_01 23:04

Oh my god, I was just about to say, like, imagine if you had this template and you like have to say, like, I love your agency, and you like mentioned it, but you sent like no, no, no.

SPEAKER_02 23:14

Like, I feel for them because we've all been there when we've sent an email, and you know, and you're like, Oh god, um can't undo because it's happened now. I have had people where they've emailed and made a mistake and then very quickly gone, I'm so sorry, I've said the wrong thing. And I'm like, you know what?

SPEAKER_01 23:28

I've done that before. You've you've you're acknowledged it, you're aware, you know what you've done.

SPEAKER_02 23:33

It's a mistake. We all make mistakes. Love it.

SPEAKER_01 23:35

Um and do you look at um do you look at people's show reels?

SPEAKER_02 23:40

Yes, every time.

SPEAKER_01 23:41

And is this very specific?

SPEAKER_02 23:44

I will probably, if they've got a singing reel or yeah, singing reel specifically, I'll be listening to that when I'm reading their cover letter. Double tasking.

SPEAKER_01 23:52

Oh it's a skill that I've developed. Wow, because I was gonna I was literally, my next question was is that um is it a read and watch or is it a straightaway watch read? But yours is a both.

SPEAKER_02 24:05

Yeah, I'll have it on both screens. So I'll have like their cover letter on one and then I'll be watching their showreel at the same time on that side. Wow. So if someone says to me, I want to be um in Bonnie and Clyde and then I'm watching their showreel, but all of their showreel is like golden era, I'm probably thinking you don't know what your person is. Yeah, there's a weird variation here that doesn't quite fit. Or sometimes I'll be like looking at their CV and thinking, but you've got a really good agent to what what's going on. Maybe it is that relationship with the agent, but then it there's always something that makes you think what's next.

SPEAKER_01 24:39

This is something that I've always thought about as well. You know where I don't know if this is like an unspoken thing, but you know where um performers reach out when they are represented? Yes, it's always slightly awkward, I find, for the performer because you can always ask for discretion.

SPEAKER_02 24:58

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:59

But do agents uh like um do that? Um or do people speak? Like because also it is business at the end of the day, but also like it's a tricky one.

SPEAKER_02 25:12

Yeah, it is a tricky one. It really is. Yeah, I think a lot, and you're right, a lot of um the onus of that gets put on the performers, but actually we're just putting agents on a pedestal and we don't need to.

SPEAKER_01 25:23

Like so true, so true.

SPEAKER_02 25:26

Um ultimately, and like what I say to a lot of people when I meet them is your career is this, and your agents are just little bolons to it. And if you want to go and look for another agent, you own you owe nothing to that agent, and that agent doesn't realistically owe anything to you. So true. It's a business relationship.

SPEAKER_01 25:43

It's like this human guilt that we feel we all feel we're betraying, but like I can still get on with like an agent that I've had, but if it doesn't work business wise, it doesn't work, and you can very respectfully say to them, I've I've loved our relationship, I love what we've done, but actually for me right now, moving forward, I'm starting to think of this.

SPEAKER_02 26:03

And I actually the best people are the ones who reach out whilst they're searching and say, Look, I'm just gonna let you know, I've actually like started to have a little ask around other agencies and yada yada yada.

SPEAKER_01 26:14

Um so you prefer the honesty, just yeah, just be up front with me.

SPEAKER_02 26:17

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just say to me, like, you know, I've I've I've been thinking of looking around X Mind Z, or be like, if you're thinking of leaving the industry, be like, you know what, these are my concerns, this is what I'm worried about. Because it might actually be something we can talk about.

SPEAKER_01 26:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:30

If you're like, oh god, I'm not getting I'm not getting past the finals, or I'm getting like recalled but never quite there, or I'm not getting called in for stuff. Yeah. Like talk to your agent, whoever they are.

SPEAKER_01 26:40

Yeah. Um instead of like making that like decision to be like, right, I'm leaving, like it's good to chat with you and actually like be like, right, what can we do to aid each other?

SPEAKER_02 26:50

There's always something that can be done.

SPEAKER_01 26:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:52

Um, I know people don't like talking about like headshots and show reels and stuff, but that is always something that can be changed or mixed up.

SPEAKER_01 26:59

Yeah, 100%. Um sometimes it's literally the fact of a headshot gets you in the room.

SPEAKER_02 27:03

Oh, literally. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Half the time, isn't that the one thing they see? And when you're looking at the the box they look at is about that big because it's tight.

SPEAKER_01 27:11

I've seen it. It's actually crazy. It's literally like a little passport photo of the phone.

SPEAKER_02 27:16

Which is why when people talk about headshots and they're like, don't you don't need a full body, like oh yeah, no, no, no, yeah, literally.

SPEAKER_01 27:23

Like you don't need no hands everywhere, like there's no room for that.

SPEAKER_02 27:25

Yeah, there's hands out of there. The classic like old school dancer picture where it'd be like this. Yeah, I remember this, yeah, with wet look hair going on.

SPEAKER_01 27:33

Not not the wet look hair, ew. Um what is your thoughts on um how often do you speak to your clients that you represent? Because I know there's I know some agencies, um, some agents, sorry, prefer like email, some prefer WhatsApp, some prefer like I know people that are represented that can't actually speak to their agent. I think that's so weird. That's yeah, that's a bit wild to me.

SPEAKER_02 27:57

I think it's wild.

SPEAKER_01 27:57

Yeah. They have to reach their agent's assistant to like book an appointment to reach their agent. I mean, which is if it works for them, but for me, I'm like, I need direct contact.

SPEAKER_02 28:11

And that's it, it's all personal choice. Like for me personally, I prefer to reach out and speak to them regularly.

SPEAKER_01 28:17

Um even if it's just like a check-in.

SPEAKER_02 28:19

Yeah, you can just ask how their days going, what they're doing, what they're up to.

SPEAKER_01 28:23

I love that.

SPEAKER_02 28:23

Um sometimes if I like send them a tape or something, um, then we'll have a little chat afterwards or something.

SPEAKER_01 28:28

Nice.

SPEAKER_02 28:29

Um, but equally I'm normally in town or here there and everywhere, so I'll try and see people where I can.

SPEAKER_01 28:34

Um You like to be quite accessible to your clients.

SPEAKER_02 28:37

I think it's important. Because actually, half the time it's not it's not the job bit that they need, it's the like life stuff that's absolutely important. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 28:46

Do you want to be my therapist?

SPEAKER_02 28:47

Therapy, taxes, counselling, I'm here for it.

SPEAKER_01 28:50

This man helped me with my taxes. He was literally on Facebook, like, right, Charlotte, do this, then do this. I was like, what do all these words mean?

SPEAKER_02 28:58

And then hilariously, I had a meeting with the accountant last week and he was like, Your accounts make no sense.

SPEAKER_01 29:02

I was like, Oh my god, really? I was like, that makes sense to me. I was like, well, mine make sense because of Matthew helped me.

SPEAKER_02 29:07

I was like, what's a strange system you use? I was like, it's been like that for like eight years now.

SPEAKER_01 29:11

Oh god, that was honestly don't be self-employed.

SPEAKER_02 29:14

Like it's just a nightmare.

SPEAKER_01 29:16

Tactical chance are just yeah, not the one. Um, what are your thoughts on? I always love asking this question to people. What are your thoughts on actors reaching out to casting directors themselves, even if they're represented?

SPEAKER_02 29:29

Yeah, do it. Why not? Oh, do you love it? Just another person.

SPEAKER_01 29:32

Like some people don't love that.

SPEAKER_02 29:34

I feel like everyone's got an opinion, don't they?

SPEAKER_01 29:37

I feel like you and I have a very similar mindset of like everyone's just human.

SPEAKER_02 29:42

Yeah. Casting directors are the same. They're jealous people.

SPEAKER_01 29:46

So I'm gonna tell a story. One time, I'm sure it's okay that I tell it. So I used to work at front of house at DMT, and um I I was basically doing TikToks, and I was doing TikToks about like lay mares when I was working for them, and they were doing really well. They were getting like over 40k views, which at that time was like quite a lot. I mean, now people get like millions, but um it is true. No, it's true, like 40k. I was like, oh my god, I'm literally famous. Um, and basically, long story short, I got pulled to the office, they were like, You're gonna have to pull, you're gonna have to pull them down, like because you work for the company, it's like a da da da. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 30:25

Conflict, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:25

Yeah, conflict of interest. And I thought, oh, that's so annoying because I'm doing really well with them and stuff. So I emailed one of the CEOs of the company.

SPEAKER_02 30:34

Love that.

SPEAKER_01 30:34

Right? Great. I I and I think he's the um he's the guy just under Cameron.

SPEAKER_02 30:40

Okay, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:41

And um, literally very chill. Hey, I work for the company, that's where I work for. These are my TikToks, here's the link. It's also like getting good views for you as well. You don't have to pay me for that, and like not that I'm an influencer, but um, oh my gosh, I went into work the next day. I was in huge trouble, like massive trouble because I'd like gone above.

SPEAKER_02 31:01

You overstepped to somebody.

SPEAKER_01 31:02

Yeah, but but I'm I'm like, is that an ego thing, or is that that's what I think?

SPEAKER_02 31:09

It's just such an ego thing.

SPEAKER_01 31:10

Like, because I'm like, I just said, oh, it wasn't that I that I thought about overstepping you or thought about it, was just that's the source that's the source, so why not get it from the horse's mouth? Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 31:23

Also, in most employment contracts, it says about like HR and stuff, and if you have a grievance that can't be dealt with your immediate line manager, you're meant to go to the person above.

SPEAKER_01 31:31

Don't worry, I did actually read the handbook and I said that to him as well. I literally did that! I was like, give me the handbook, give me the handbook. Read the handbook. But like it's so funny. But the thing is, it made me look problematic, and I wasn't. I was just like, I enjoy doing my TikToks, I want to get permission, you can't give me permission, this person can. Yeah. So I email.

SPEAKER_02 31:51

I feel like people don't like a problem, and that's the thing. People, especially in the UK, we love to kick a problem down the road. Literally, I did like today. And um, no one ever wants to go, oh yeah, that's that's the thing. But like as even with casting directors, I don't I don't understand personally why an actor shouldn't be allowed to email a casting director. If their email's out there in the public forum, yes, um I agree and you've not like followed them to the house or something. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:15

Um well when I do these workshops, a lot of casting directors actually a hundred percent of all the ones that I've done have said yes, we welcome emails.

SPEAKER_02 32:24

Of course they do. They might not read it, their assistant might read it, but at least you've done it. And also, if you're doing a workshop, email the casting director afterwards and say, Thank you so much for seeing me. Yeah, and then and that's it. Just like thank you for seeing me, blah, blah, blah. And in your signature, have your spotlight link. Because you're not then being pushy and going, Oh, here's my spotlight, please love me.

SPEAKER_01 32:41

Just have it there. Just have it there.

SPEAKER_02 32:43

Just a little like that's really because we all keep lists, we all have we have lists of actors.

SPEAKER_01 32:48

That's a really good um little tip, like to not be like, please see below my spotlight link, it's just there.

SPEAKER_02 32:54

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:54

You don't have to draw attention to it and they know it's there.

SPEAKER_02 32:56

Yeah, exactly. I love that. It's just handy. But no, I I I don't think, and most of the casting directors I talk to are fine with it. I think if they very specifically say, let's say uh Richard um with the Billy Elliott casting, yeah. Obviously, in musical theatre, they put one casting out and the world goes mad for it.

SPEAKER_01 33:14

They're like, oh my god, it's everyone, every man this dog is messaged in their race.

SPEAKER_02 33:17

My great granddad was Geordie. And I used to do both granddad was I can spell Geordie. I can spell it, I am there. I think I know where Gate said is. Um yeah, literally. Uh yeah, stuff like that. If they're saying, like, you know, we're putting this brief out, yada yada yada, and it very specifically says, do not contact us, just submit like that, then don't contact them because you're just you're showing them you can't read. But if you're the best thing to do is if you're wanting to reach out to a casting director or an agent, is think ahead and think, okay, that casting director, she's Pippa, for example. Look at that casting office and go, cool, you've got Pippa, you've got Natalie Gallo, Richard, Grace, um, and go, Who am I gonna email out of them? Probably not Richard or Natalie. I'm gonna go to Grace because she's the the first one. Is it Grace McKinnon? Yes, yeah, um, and reach out to them and say yada yada yada and say something like I've just been to see Hercules, I thought the show was fantastic, um and I know that you might be casting X, Y, Z down the line. Yeah, this is me, this is what I'm doing, this is what I've done.

SPEAKER_01 34:24

Like, actually have a reason to email.

SPEAKER_02 34:26

Have a reason to email.

SPEAKER_01 34:27

Don't just be like, hi, my name's Charlotte, I update my head jobs.

SPEAKER_02 34:30

Yeah, and if you do it before if you do it before the casting comes out, then you're not gonna get lost in a sea of a thousand emails, probably from agents being like, please see our clients for this show. So true.

SPEAKER_01 34:40

Please, so true.

SPEAKER_02 34:41

Because everyone does it the amount of times we email casting teams and then they go, Yep, cool, thank you. And that's all you'll get will be like a thank you so much. Thank you for your time.

SPEAKER_01 34:49

Yeah, I remember with Chloe, I won't imagine who it was, but I remember she like sent this email to push me for something, and it was like, Yeah, thanks, Chloe.

SPEAKER_02 34:57

Cheers, thank you, and you're like, cool.

SPEAKER_01 34:59

All right, but I always think I'd rather them respond than not talking about it. A response is a response. I will take that thanks, Chloe. Literally, and I will tell myself that I'll bit the job.

SPEAKER_02 35:07

Yeah, exactly. And sometimes when you like speak to casting directors afterwards, they'll be like, Yeah, they just weren't right for it, but they'll be right for something else, it's just they weren't right for this one.

SPEAKER_01 35:15

Listen, acknowledgement in this industry is good, and that's a shame because that should be like the bare minimum, but it's just so oversaturated that it's just impossible to expect that all the time.

SPEAKER_02 35:25

But no, long answer to your question, yes, reach out to casting directors with a purpose.

SPEAKER_01 35:30

So we are on to our next sexy sexy honor. What's called next section. Section Um It's called Backstage Drama.

SPEAKER_02 35:38

Love it.

SPEAKER_01 35:39

Basically, I want to know any embarrassing stories, funny stories, anything just basically like chaotic that you have experienced just to make this industry um not glamorised, really, and actually just like we said, I think like the run and theme of this is that we're all human.

SPEAKER_02 35:57

Yeah, yeah, that's so true. Um yeah, when I auditioned for um Jersey Boys, um I was in for Swing the first time.

SPEAKER_01 36:06

I've still never seen that. That's bad. It's a great show. I know, it looks really good.

SPEAKER_02 36:10

It's good, yeah, it's good. Um the oldies love it. My god, they love it.

SPEAKER_01 36:15

Um, I bet because also as well, obviously like we've both worked on ships. When did you get like a lot of Jersey Boys tribute like acts for the guests? They love it. They live.

SPEAKER_02 36:25

I used to do one of those for yeah, yeah, yeah. I did it with um yeah, I did it for like a year and a bit, like on and off.

SPEAKER_01 36:31

Um I used to love it, and it's best job ever.

SPEAKER_02 36:33

Yeah. Oh my god, you treat like a celebrity.

SPEAKER_01 36:35

Yeah, yeah, you are.

SPEAKER_02 36:36

How many people come and be like, oh, I used to have a friend called Sherry, and you're like, did you? Thank you. And they're like, Can I buy you a drink? I'm like, You're damn right you can.

SPEAKER_01 36:45

Damn right, you can get me a$15 cartel.

SPEAKER_02 36:48

And they come back and they're just like, they love you. But anyway, yeah, I digress uh into my life. Um yeah, I was auditioning for Jersey Boys. Um, I knew the choreographer um from one of those tribute shows. Oh, okay. I walked in the room, I was like, hello Ben. He was like, hello Matthew. I was like, This is weird. Um he also looked like he should never have been in that show. He's like tattoos everywhere, huge piercings and all sorts, and he was in it for years. Oh wow, okay, fair. Um we were doing the dance section, and then they were like, Great, okay, thanks, boys, we're gonna make a cut. Made a cut, got kept. They're like, Okay, uh, you four over there, um, you're gonna go with Ben, you're gonna learn the Frankie stuff. I was like, I could do that the whole time. Um we go upstairs and he's like, right, guys, okay, so we're gonna go do it, and it was for begging. Um bit in the show where he's at like this club, and he sings begging, and he's it's basically just before it all kind of goes a bit down the drain. Yeah. Uh, and the mafia get involved, and um this is a bit of the start where you like walk to the front in front of your microphone, do a spin, you fall down into a jazz split, and then you go up and then back down into a jazz split. I've done into a jazz split. No one told me that was in Jersey Boys.

SPEAKER_00 37:54

I didn't know that was in Jersey Boys.

SPEAKER_02 37:55

Neither did I until three minutes into that audition.

SPEAKER_00 37:57

Stand on a mic. On a stand axe on the mic.

SPEAKER_02 37:59

So I'm there and I'm like, I can't do this for much. This is gonna be horrific. And I also, because they told you wear trousers and a blazer, so we're all in trousers, blazers, and smart shoes.

SPEAKER_01 38:07

Oh, so you're not even oh no, I know where I'm going.

SPEAKER_02 38:10

You know where this is going.

SPEAKER_01 38:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:11

Anyway, so yes, the lo and behold, in the middle of the audition it happened.

SPEAKER_01 38:14

And I was like, No.

SPEAKER_02 38:15

Well, to make matters worse, when I did the show, yeah, the same thing happened on stage.

SPEAKER_01 38:20

On stage.

SPEAKER_02 38:21

Mm-hmm. And you don't leave that stage until pretty much towards the very end of the show after um Francine dies.

SPEAKER_00 38:31

I mean, they must have found it funny because you put the job.

SPEAKER_02 38:33

I mean, literally, like that audition could not have gone more wrong. I ended up the wrong way in a dance call. I was facing the wrong way. Everyone else was facing forward, the whole dance facing the back.

SPEAKER_00 38:42

No, you're lying.

SPEAKER_02 38:42

Because I got my pirate bit wrong.

SPEAKER_01 38:47

The whole thing. So funny.

SPEAKER_02 38:50

I got drawn up for that show.

SPEAKER_01 38:51

You're literally like facing the corner and everyone's like, I'll be right back.

SPEAKER_02 38:54

I just was giving it full beans, but I was like, I'm facing completely the wrong way.

SPEAKER_01 38:57

And at the end is so funny.

SPEAKER_02 38:59

Danny, the choreographer, who's this um lovely, lovely human being, um very calm Canadian guy, came over and was just like, I love your style.

SPEAKER_01 39:09

I just love how you did that and committed. I love how you did it strong and wrong.

SPEAKER_02 39:14

And then I didn't hear for like three months, and I was like, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 39:16

Oh, so you didn't hear for ages.

SPEAKER_02 39:19

I was like, Yeah, go figure, not got that job. And then my agent called me. I was just about to go on a plane, and my agent called me and was like, Oh, by the way, you've got the job. I was like, You were like still to this day, I think they wrote down the wrong Matthew. I still to this day believe there was another Matthew out there who should have got that job.

SPEAKER_01 39:32

No, that somewhere and that, my ladies and gents, is called imposter syndrome.

SPEAKER_02 39:36

Oh my god, so true. Yeah. Uh but yes, that was my embarrassing tip.

SPEAKER_01 39:39

That's so funny. I love that. Thanks for sharing. Um, so we're gonna talk about I know we spoke about it a little bit earlier, but the not so I never know what to call this section, not so glitz and glam part of the industry. Um, what do you think? Um, what do people misunderstand most about agents?

SPEAKER_02 39:58

Um, I think like we said before, people put us on this weird pedestal, and I don't think you need to. Like, yeah, yeah, your agent should be there to help you and and benefit you. Um, and yeah, sometimes you people do need a bit of like a telling off or a bit of a word or like a calm down, like it's okay. But actually, your agent is just another person.

SPEAKER_01 40:20

Like um and like the the there shouldn't be like a power struggle or something. Yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_02 40:24

It should be a very open and communicative relationship where if you say, Can I see my subs, you should be allowed to see your subs. Yeah. It's so weird that people don't do that.

SPEAKER_01 40:33

I that's what I like.

SPEAKER_02 40:34

It's a singular setting, people on Tagmin, you can just click it.

SPEAKER_01 40:38

I wonder well, I do know what actually I was just about to say, I wonder why some agents don't allow them to see their subs. But I actually spoke to someone um a couple of months ago and I can't remember who it is, and they said to me that the I think they're like an assistant somewhere. Yeah, and they said the reason why they personally don't do it is because if a lot of their clients see the subs, they used to get so many emails about the subs.

SPEAKER_02 41:03

That's fair enough. Which I was like, okay, I get that, but then I'm also like then how well are you communicating with them all the other times if they're having to email every time they see their subs.

SPEAKER_01 41:13

Yeah, yeah. That's do you know what I mean? Because also like it is our career and you should be a team, and I just I found it really awkward with my previous agents that I had to ask because I felt do you know what it is? It feels like you're checking in on them. Where it's like, I'm not actually checking in on you, I'm just like, I want to know what's going on in the industry.

SPEAKER_02 41:39

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:39

Like because sometimes I don't know a show's coming out until I see myself. So I'm like, oh, that must be coming out.

SPEAKER_02 41:43

Oh my gosh, it's there. Oh yeah. Yeah, I get it. Like sometimes like subsurb confidential or stuff, but casting actors are super on that, and they will hide things off Spotlight and hide it behind like different names for projects, or they'll remove all the details and stuff. Just say like untitled project or something. Yeah, if it's something huge like the next Marvel film, it'll literally just be like until project, male actor, female actor. Yeah. And it'll be like, okay, cool.

SPEAKER_01 42:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:08

And you won't see anything.

SPEAKER_01 42:09

I agree. I feel like everyone should just be able to see their subs. I think that's I think it's crazy that people can't. Um on the opposite side of that, um, what is one of the most proudest moments that you have had um as an agent so far in your career?

SPEAKER_02 42:24

Um oh gosh, there's been a few. Um turning 10 years was incredible. That's a really recent one. Um that's a huge milestone as well. Yeah, being able to do this full-time um and have other people do it for me who are also now full-time is fantastic. Like that's such an achievement. And but that all comes everything that we do comes down to the fact that we have really good clients who are just really hardworking and will take the jobs and do the work um and the graft of auditions. Um What are your thoughts?

SPEAKER_01 42:55

Sorry, that I've just interrupted you and you've just uh twig something in my brain. What are your thoughts on um clients saying yeah? Do you feel like clients should say yes to everything? Or do you not everything?

SPEAKER_02 43:10

So I actually had it um over the weekend. I'm sure he won't mind me saying, but my recent sign George, who's lovely, really nice man. Um he uh has been in for some fantastic things. So he signed two weeks ago and he's in for like five or six things at the minute. Um and then one project came up and he just messaged me over the week. He was like, look, I've read through it, and he like gave me a reason for it. He was like, the script just isn't kind of along the lines of what I want. Um and I was like, you know what? It's it's yeah, no drama. Yeah, because you've told me.

SPEAKER_01 43:44

I'm like, I know it I feel like it's when people maybe like go through the process of it, come to the author, and it's like, oh, I just don't want to do this. It's like, well what you could have saved the whole hustle. Because that is an awkward phone call to make also that makes it it look makes you look bad as well.

SPEAKER_02 43:59

Yeah, I think people Maybe don't understand that it's not actually the cast and director who's making that final choice either. Like they get you in the room. Yeah. They talk with the agents, they get you in the room, but past the point of auditions, it goes off to a producer or an executive producer. Yeah. And if they've then gone, yep, that person, you come back in the garage, how do I do it? Then you've like kind of annoyed quite a lot of people down the line.

SPEAKER_01 44:19

And wasted time, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 44:21

Yeah, ta and money. And that's what they care about.

SPEAKER_01 44:23

Time is money.

SPEAKER_02 44:24

Time is money and money is time. Yeah. Um, yeah, so I think yeah, um, I can't remember what your question was now. Oh, you are. I was saying yes or no to things. Yeah. Um, and yes, 10 years doing things full-time, and then uh to be honest, any time someone books a job, whether it's my client or someone else's client, um, I'm always super proud for them because I know how hard it is.

SPEAKER_01 44:45

And especially because you're you were a performer as well. Like you know that feeling of what it's like when it's like, oh, they've bit the job. Yeah, and that's super important.

SPEAKER_02 44:52

Yeah, I think I think agents should be performers beforehand or have some level of knowledge on the creative industry, which is something that we all have is that sort of stuff. So it's important.

SPEAKER_01 45:03

Love that.

SPEAKER_02 45:03

Important.

SPEAKER_01 45:04

Um, we are coming to the end of the podcast. Oh, we're nearly there. This is uh the five-minute call, and um just basically short and sweet. Um, what are your goals for the future?

SPEAKER_02 45:15

Oh my gosh, goals for the future uh last another ten years, that'd be nice. Literally, uh no, I think probably over the like the last three years we've doubled in size pretty much. We now have five agents, including me, all together. Unreal. I would imagine in the next five years, I would love to take on probably another two, maybe, nice, um, and expand some other areas. Um, and also get more we've started to get more heavily involved with like the PMA and actually trying to positively make impact onto the industry. Nice. Um, so keep doing that. Um, yeah, yeah, I think that's like a good business goal. Yeah, expand a little bit more, bit more growth, but we're in a really good place right now and it's really lovely. I'd love to be able to keep supporting other agents to kind of develop and do what they want to do. So I love that. Yeah, I met with um well recently like made friends with um Shannon and Bloom, which are a gorgeous female-led agency, they're fantastic. Um they were both absolutely delightful. And um Freedom as well, which is a couple who um were both ex-performers as well, who've made their own agency. And yeah, I think it's always good to help each other out. Yeah, there's there's uh you know, there's loads of agents out there, and there are some who probably shouldn't be, or ones that pop up and get dodgy, but actually the majority of agents are super supportive and caring and lovely. Yeah, um, and the more that we can have of that, the better.

SPEAKER_01 46:42

Yeah, um and the nicer industry create everyone involved.

SPEAKER_02 46:46

That's it, and you know, if we as agents can then help each other out, uh like I do with most agents, it's it's a lovely kind of relationship to have because also we obviously get a lot of rep requests and we can't take everyone on, sadly, as much as I would love to. But then I can say, Oh, you should reach out to yeah, that's why I'd love to definitely I love that.

SPEAKER_01 47:07

Yeah, it's nice, really cool. Um, last but not least, we have a listener question. And the question is uh, how do you handle rejection both for your clients and yourself?

SPEAKER_02 47:19

Um yeah, it's a funny one because uh having been rejected many, many times for things, um, and now on the agent side, it's almost like you feel it before they feel it because obviously you know because you see the email and stuff. If it's like first round something, half the time I'll just be like, you know what? What what are we what are we all gaining from knowing that that didn't go anywhere? You probably know because you didn't get recalled. Yeah. If it's like a final, that's tough.

SPEAKER_01 47:45

That's tough.

SPEAKER_02 47:46

It's a f it's a yeah, especially because you're the one that has to be a few years. It's a tough it's a real tough one, and it's happened quite a lot over the years. Um, we had a guy in for Aladdin once for Cover Genie when it was in town, and he got all the way through the subfinals and he just just missed out by like it must have been by a fraction, and um like it ruined him. Like he was like, No, I can't do this anymore, not performing. Oh done quit and left. And it was sad because he was a fantastic performer who's really, really good, incredibly talented. Sometimes there's only so much you can take, but it's so true, it's literally it is a tough old one. I think for me, the way that I handle it is having that separation between work and normal life, yeah, having friends who aren't involved in this industry, yeah. I love that. Um, doing things that aren't involved in this industry, so I can go home and not just think theatre TV films. Yeah, it's just like it just doesn't pin on that. Yeah, have other things to make life worth living for, yeah. Um, rather than just always. We're we're pretty guilty of it, especially in this world of going, well, if I'm not doing this or doing that or doing that, then what is the point? But actually, there's you know, even stuff like this, like it's another way to be creative, yeah, rather than just kind of going, yeah, I need to be in the West End. Um lovely.

SPEAKER_01 49:00

Well, thank you so much for coming on the call. It's been absolutely glorious to chat to you.

SPEAKER_02 49:05

Thanks so much.

SPEAKER_01 49:05

Um Matthew Roberts, everyone.

SPEAKER_03 49:07

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 49:08

He's the man. Please like, subscribe, and comment wherever you watch your podcast. And I will see you next week. Bye.