Ep 7. Jason Leigh Winter: LADY GAGA REPOSTED?!! TAYLOR SWIFT RESHARED?!! ... 🤯🤯🤯

Hosted By Charlotte Neale. In this Week's episode we are Joined by Content Creator and Performer Jason Leigh Winter. We speak about how he entered the world of social media, to now having 9.3 Million views on Instagram. Funny backstage stories from all the wonderful shows he has worked on, and life in the inbetween moments. X 

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:11

Hi everyone, and welcome back to Life in the Wings podcast. I am joined by the gorgeous Jason Lee Winter.

SPEAKER_00 0:19

Hello!

SPEAKER_04 0:20

Welcome to the podcast.

SPEAKER_00 0:22

Thank you. I love it. Do you love it? Life in the Wings. Thank you so much. Better than any coffee shop treated.

SPEAKER_04 0:28

Guys, if you don't have an espresso machine, get to know.

SPEAKER_00 0:32

Come on, come on, plug. Nespresso sponsored. Life in the Wings, thank you.

SPEAKER_04 0:35

Oh my god, that's the dream. Um, so we're gonna go into the first bit of the segment, which is one of my favourites. Just a little icebreaker, even though we definitely don't need that.

SPEAKER_01 0:44

We've just been talking for half an hour. I've given away most of my answers to espresso.

SPEAKER_04 0:48

I must say, wait for the pod, but it's so hard. When when guests come on, I always say they're always asking me that, how are you? Like all this sort of stuff. And I always feel like I'm not asking them anything because I'm waiting for the pod, but with you, I just like let rip and I'm like, we now have to repeat conversations, but it's fine. Okay, so this is the quick fire round, aka the 16 bar cut.

SPEAKER_00 1:10

Screaming. She didn't tell me that bit in the uh download. I like this. That is so good, the 16 bar cut.

SPEAKER_04 1:16

Yeah, because have you ever I've done it before where I've gone into an audition and they've literally said 16 bar cut, I've sang a line, I'm gonna say it. Um, and they they literally I sang a line and they stopped me. Yeah, no, no, no. But this was like, I'm talking like nine years ago now. How crazy then?

SPEAKER_00 1:31

Whereas I've had the other way around where they ask for like a 32 bar cut and I make sure that it's exactly 32 bar, and then they're like, oh, that was abrupt. I'm like, you asked.

SPEAKER_04 1:39

You asked for it. I thought you were gonna say it and they asked for the whole song, but you don't know it.

SPEAKER_00 1:42

I'd refuse. Like, wasn't that my breakdown? Sorry. You said 32, that's what you get. That's what I like.

SPEAKER_04 1:48

Because my fear is always that, because I always just low key learn like just 32 bars. I've never really learned the whole song. So can you imagine if they're like, can you just sing the whole song? We just want to hear a little bit more. And I'm like, sorry, no.

SPEAKER_00 1:58

Well, that's why I've sung the same song for 18 years. I've got three songs, and they're just a rotation, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:03

We're gonna put a pin in that and we'll come back to it. So it's gonna be this or that questions. So we have audition or self-tape?

SPEAKER_00 2:11

Audition.

SPEAKER_04 2:12

Matterday or evening?

SPEAKER_00 2:13

Evening.

SPEAKER_04 2:14

Yeah, musical or play?

SPEAKER_00 2:16

Musical.

SPEAKER_04 2:17

Singing or dancing first.

SPEAKER_00 2:19

Singing.

SPEAKER_04 2:19

Oh, I was really interested in that with you because I didn't know which way you were gonna go.

SPEAKER_00 2:23

I'm manifesting, singing. Singing fast.

SPEAKER_04 2:26

Uh as we were just saying, 32 bar cut or full song.

SPEAKER_00 2:29

32 bar cut.

SPEAKER_04 2:30

Absolutely. Um, ensemble or lead?

SPEAKER_00 2:33

Lead.

SPEAKER_04 2:33

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 2:35

Own dressing room. This is true.

SPEAKER_04 2:36

Personal dresser. Yeah, this is true. Yeah. The pay ride. Yeah, yeah. Why did I even ask that question? Um, and then last one, Instagram or TikTok?

SPEAKER_00 2:45

Oh, I'm gonna say Instagram.

SPEAKER_04 2:47

You love an Instagram TikTok.

SPEAKER_00 2:48

I do, only because at the start, TikTok was so I was not gonna say so easy. It wasn't, it took work. Yeah. But my TikTok built really quickly at first and then really stalled, and then my Instagram exploded. And now it's like double the following. Yeah. I get so many more interactions on there. I actually enjoy scrolling it more. Like once reels became a thing, I was like, oh, okay, Insta's up Insta's up its game. And I love it.

SPEAKER_04 3:10

I feel like Instagram is Instagram like less toxic as well.

SPEAKER_00 3:14

Yeah, I find it a lot harder to go into the bad side of the algorithm in Instagram, whereas TikTok, you it takes one comment and like you find a whole load of trolls.

SPEAKER_04 3:22

Yeah. Also, a lot of people scroll through Instagram reels, something I've never done. Like you do not.

SPEAKER_00 3:28

See, I do not because they've changed it. Okay, Instagram, we have to talk. Okay. I'm not happy about this. Um, when you're in the messages now, because the messages is now on the bottom bar. Do you remember it used to be up in the top corner? That you scroll off the message and it's like I'm a real and it's so loud. Even when your phone's on silent.

SPEAKER_03 3:43

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:44

Yeah, I get in trouble a lot backstage for that because it's no phones backstage. Clearly, I have mine because I'm editing my videos, so like hiding in the quick change. I put an airpod in one like Oh, I should put my AirPods in, but you can't because then your when you edit, your sound is out of time. If you edit on headphones, it's not the same. It's so annoying. Oh my god, it's not. Even on the train, I have to like have the volume really low to be like, I don't want annoy anyone, but I need the time. If you do it with your headphones in, especially AirPods. Oh. Because like there's a delay which is.

SPEAKER_04 4:11

Because I've done, I mean, I don't really do TikTok a lot anymore, but I've done it in the past, and I've had it where some videos like it it looks amazing. Well, it looks amazing, who am I? But like it's no, it looks really good. No, but like it looks amazing in the like lip sync thing or whatever, or like putting the music to it, but then when I post it, it doesn't.

SPEAKER_00 4:27

So it's because I've If you've got a headphone in, yeah. It's so annoying. So if you do it with a headphone, you then have to lay the actual sound over the top and make sure it sinks up again, which is just a pain in the ass.

SPEAKER_04 4:36

He's a content creator, guys. You heard it here first.

SPEAKER_00 4:39

Thank you.

SPEAKER_04 4:40

So let's go back to actually before we go back to the beginning of your wonderful life in Korea. You have done so much. You've had a very busy career on stage. I'm very tired.

SPEAKER_00 4:52

My hips hurt.

SPEAKER_04 4:54

Um, to name a few Moulin Rouge, Frozen, Kinky Boots, Matilda, Wicked, Chicago, Cats, the list goes on. Uh, also been an associate choreographer and assistant choreographer, right? Correct. She's done her research. Yes. She's done her research.

SPEAKER_00 5:10

Come on, Spotlight.

SPEAKER_04 5:11

Not even on Spotlight. Yes. Not even on Spotlight.

SPEAKER_00 5:16

She's a show programme. She's got a programme. She's seen me in action.

SPEAKER_04 5:19

Just little Google search.

SPEAKER_00 5:21

Iconic. It's stuff that I put on there myself.

SPEAKER_04 5:25

I changed my own Wikipedia. So talk to me how it all began. Um theatre came into your life.

SPEAKER_00 5:34

My mum is a dance teacher. She's a Borom and Latin teacher.

SPEAKER_04 5:38

Wow, and you were saying earlier that your brother used to be a performer as well. Wow, so your family are stagyy.

SPEAKER_00 5:44

Yeah, apart from my dad, who was a long-distance lorry driver. Well, very much not anything to do with theatre. Opposite side, but so supportive. Like he's such a legend. Um, yeah, and it's, I mean, I always joke that mum wanted a girl once she'd had my brother is older than me. Okay. So they wanted a girl, and then they got me and she went, Oh well, this one will dance anyway. But um it was actually not it. But um, it was actually she used to choreograph for an uh amateur dramatics company.

unknown 6:12

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 6:12

And um she, I believe it was Kankan. I want to say it was the musical Kankan she was choreographing. And uh she was in the living room, up and dancing around, she turned around and I was just mimicking everything behind her. Oh and she was like, she's told me this story. This might be a complete lie, but I've told everyone in my life this.

SPEAKER_03 6:26

Not you gaslighting everyone.

SPEAKER_00 6:28

Literally, just like none of this happened. Um but no, she so she took me to dancing and I just fell in love with it. And that's Wow.

SPEAKER_04 6:34

So what age were you?

SPEAKER_00 6:35

I was four.

SPEAKER_04 6:36

Wow, so you've literally because um on previous podcasts when I've been speaking to male identifying, um, a lot of them started much later. So you started really early.

SPEAKER_00 6:46

I started when I was four. I had a not a weird journey. Like I was very I'm an odd person, I changed my mind a lot about what I want to do.

SPEAKER_04 6:52

Okay, cool.

SPEAKER_00 6:53

And always have done.

SPEAKER_04 6:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:54

Um, so I started, she took me to uh like ballet tap modern, as everyone did at that age. Um I hated ballet, so I stopped very quickly. Okay. Um weirdly, I think tap at that point I held up the longest, which is now not the case. I hate tapping.

SPEAKER_04 7:11

Oh do you?

SPEAKER_00 7:12

Um I got I got uh bone spurs on a job, and now it's just painful.

SPEAKER_04 7:16

Oh fine, so not for you.

SPEAKER_00 7:18

Um but I'm also not very good at it. I kind of blag it.

SPEAKER_04 7:22

Oh, you like look at my face, look at my eyes.

SPEAKER_00 7:24

Very that. Because I did it from a young age, and then when I picked it up later, so I dropped that then. Yeah, um mum kind of taught me and my brother uh ballroom because she used to do it in like a local community centre.

SPEAKER_04 7:35

Okay, probably half ballroom.

SPEAKER_00 7:37

So we did ballroom from a young age, I think from when I was about probably five or six until I was about nine, I think. So I'm not like competitive ballroom, but I know the basics. Nice. Um and then we jumped around different schools of to where we went to, and I ended up just doing kind of like jazz, and on the side of that, we got into like the Am Dram company and then the local youth theatre, and my brother's very much more of a singer-actor, so he kind of followed that route. Um, but yeah, so because I dropped tap, and then naturally I think I because of my mum, I don't know, I think I'm very good at picking up a different dance style to something. When I got to college, they were just kind of like, Oh, you're advanced tap, and I was like, mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_04 8:15

You're like, hammer?

SPEAKER_00 8:16

And then they'd say something, I'd be like, I'm gonna need you to show me that because I've no idea what you're talking about. And they're like, Okay, well, I'll get those beats out. I'm not doing the right method, like I don't know what I'm doing, but I'll make the same sounds as you. Literally, so then next thing I know, I've got a solo in the summer show at Lane Theatre Arts as a tapper, and I was like, You are lying! Yeah, literally.

SPEAKER_04 8:33

Professional blagger.

SPEAKER_00 8:34

It was uh click-tracked, and Mark Evans, the legend choreographer, actually click-tracked my part for me because I couldn't do the thing he'd set me. No way! He clicked it and I just mimed it every night. On your solo. Literally on my solo. He put like one-footed wings in, and I was like, I can't do these. And he was like, I've got your babe, it's fine.

SPEAKER_04 8:48

Oh my god, that's my own. So you so did you throughout school and stuff, did you keep doing uh like training? Whole time, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:57

There was, I think there was like a four or five month period at one point where I think I can't really remember, I'm guessing because of bullying or something. I kind of went, I don't think I want to do this anymore. I wanted to be a physiotherapist for Team GB. I don't know where that came from. Wow. So random. I must have been watching the Olympics at the time and was like, What? That'll be fun.

SPEAKER_04 9:14

Sorry, the team GB threw me.

SPEAKER_00 9:16

Literally, I was like, not even like a small time therapist. I'm like, I'm gonna do it. Athletics, Olympics, let's go.

SPEAKER_03 9:22

Olympics, wow.

SPEAKER_00 9:22

Um, maybe I just liked the athletes, maybe that's why. But um love that. But yeah, so I had like a a little gap, and my mum is the bet, like she's a dance mum, but she's not a pushy mum at all. And she was just like, yeah, fine. And then one day I like walked into her sobbing, like, I want to go back to dancing.

SPEAKER_04 9:36

She's like, okay. Did your um did your school do dance?

SPEAKER_00 9:40

No, I went to an all-boys school. It was fine. Yeah, yeah, it was absolutely fine.

SPEAKER_04 9:46

Because um, the only reason I ask is because it just triggered a memory. Uh, so my brother is also in the arts, he's a director-writer now. Um, but at school we had uh a dance programme where you could take it as a GCSE. Um, what what year did we go to school? So I was at school 2005-2010, my brother's two years older. Um boys weren't allowed to participate.

SPEAKER_00 10:08

What?

SPEAKER_04 10:09

Isn't that crazy?

SPEAKER_00 10:10

That's not that long ago.

SPEAKER_04 10:11

Yeah. Uh yeah, so my brother wanted to take it as a GCSE and they wouldn't let him because he was a boy. How crazy how crazy is that?

SPEAKER_00 10:22

Like we didn't offer it, didn't offer it out of school, but our school actually my school was really good in terms of also really random fact a guy just joined my show recently who went to the same secondary school as me. We'd never met each other, and it was about 20 years apart because he's a lot younger than I am. But um, one of the other guys was like, hey, he's from Spaulding. I was like, that's where I went to school. He was like, What school did you go to? I was like, Spaulding grammar. He was like, Yeah, me too.

SPEAKER_04 10:42

I was like, What the heck? This world is so small.

SPEAKER_00 10:46

So weird. Never heard of each other, like nothing but like we went to slightly different theatre schools and stuff. We must, if we go through, like we probably would, but wow. But um, but yeah, so I couldn't do it at my school, but then our the local college in Peterborough had it as like a year's course.

SPEAKER_04 10:58

Is that where you're from? Peterborough?

SPEAKER_00 11:00

Uh just outside, yeah. Just outside of Peterborough.

SPEAKER_04 11:02

I went to um a like a foundation course in St. Neates, which is a division.

SPEAKER_00 11:07

Yeah, so I went to um my dance school was between Huntingdon and St Ives. TGS.

SPEAKER_04 11:13

Wait, so do you know in Buckden?

SPEAKER_00 11:16

Oh, of I don't think I've been there. So that now.

SPEAKER_04 11:18

So that's where the school was. I want to say St. Neites because people know that, but it was in Buckden. Oh my gosh. How funny, because I had um there was someone in my year who was from Peterborough, so I went there all the time for like little sleepovers and stuff. I really enjoyed Peterborough. It's cute. Um so you went to Lane Theatre Arts.

SPEAKER_00 11:31

I did, yes.

SPEAKER_04 11:32

Enjoy it?

SPEAKER_00 11:33

Loved it every single second.

SPEAKER_04 11:34

When did you graduate?

SPEAKER_00 11:36

2008.

SPEAKER_04 11:37

2008. And when it was 18 years ago.

SPEAKER_00 11:40

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_04 11:41

Doesn't it make you feel a certain way? Because even I graduated in 2017, and for me in my head, I'm like, yeah, I graduated last year.

SPEAKER_00 11:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 11:48

2017, that's nearly 10 years ago. Like it's crazy.

SPEAKER_00 11:51

Where does that work? Because when we sit in the dressing room and someone's like, Oh, I was born in 2004. I was like, I went to college when you were one.

SPEAKER_04 11:57

Yeah. My friend who was my friend who was on the podcast uh a few weeks ago, um, he when I said something about this date, like I said, oh like 2003, and he was like, Oh, I was three years old then. I was like, No, I was about to start secondary school. Like that that makes me feel like weird that you're now in my house and you're ten years younger than me, but like we we have the same maturity level, do you know what I mean? Yeah, anyway. So you came out of uh Lane and what was your first job?

SPEAKER_00 12:25

My first job was Flash Dance UK Tour. It was the world premiere of Flashdance, it was the Arlene Phillips version. Unreal. Um yeah, I actually left, I didn't get to go to my graduation or anything. It was me and another guy in our year that um we finished the summer show at Lane's. You do like a it doesn't have like a showcase at Lane because you have a theatre, uh you have an agent, sorry, in-house, so you're already on an agency.

SPEAKER_03 12:48

Oh yes.

SPEAKER_00 12:49

So they'd got me flash dance, they got me in the room. Um and yeah, so we did our summer show on the Sunday, said goodbye to everyone, and then started rehearsals on the Monday. It was wild. Wow because it's what you were at college for, like, that's the whole reason is that you wanna work. But it was just like, oh my god, like we finish with all our mates today, and tomorrow we're gonna meet a whole load of professionals that I've never met and you didn't even have like a minute to to breathe, or a minute to even like because of that, it like you didn't think anything different until I think like three months into not even that actually, probably two months into the tour was when the graduation happened, and I was I was a head boy in my third year. Go on. Don't know how. Um I did nothing. Um but we'd organised graduation and then obviously it was happening, and we were in Plymouth doing the show, and I was actually like from. No way!

SPEAKER_04 13:36

No, I'm I'm from Plymouth!

SPEAKER_00 13:39

I love Plymouth. I I love Plymouth.

SPEAKER_04 13:41

See the foghorn, fogh. Sorry, I was saying before that I'm like a foghorn on the mic. I am so passionate.

SPEAKER_00 13:47

I love Plymouth. I've had the best time there. I've always toured there in summer as well, which really helps.

SPEAKER_04 13:52

One of my goals is to perform at the Plymouth Theatre Royal, just because it's obviously my hometown.

SPEAKER_00 13:56

But I live one of the few theatres in the UK that has a canteen backstage. Oh, subsidised food, fantastic jacket potatoes. Uh the best food. Yeah, I love it. It's the best place to be a swing. Just sit in the canteen all day.

SPEAKER_04 14:07

Wow, so I live outside of the city, but it's like a 10-minute drive into the city. Um, let me tell you what I love about Plymouth. We've got the city, we've got the country, we've got the sea, we've got everything. And it's like, I I just think everyone needs to go to Plymouth. And like, I get so passionate when people come on tour to Plymouth. I'm like, let me give you the spots. I love it! Like my friend who's illegally blonde at the minute, when she comes to Plymouth, I said, I'm literally gonna text you so many places to go. Like, and I'm so glad you're gonna go. I love it.

SPEAKER_00 14:32

Get down the gin distillery, and then what's that bit where the cobbled road is?

SPEAKER_04 14:35

The Barbican.

SPEAKER_00 14:36

Yeah, get down there, and there's the really nice fish and chip shops. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just watch out for the seagulls because they are menaces.

SPEAKER_04 14:41

Um, my friend who uh just did the Matilda tour, I gave him a list and one of the fish and chip shops was on the base. So good.

SPEAKER_00 14:49

There's a like a clotted cream ice cream shop right next to it as well, I think, or something.

SPEAKER_04 14:52

Yes, yes, yes. So good. And fudge.

SPEAKER_00 14:54

Oh my god, it's so good.

SPEAKER_04 14:55

Yeah, oh my god. I love it. We love limit. Um anyway, so have you ever had a like a huge gap in between jobs?

SPEAKER_00 15:05

Um, yes, recently. I've been very lucky. My brother, my brother always hated on me in terms of not actually hated on me, but it was always like, you always just manage to get lucky. There was a point where between every job I had like maximum like two to four weeks or something. Like I'd get towards the end of a show and be like, oh, nothing's happening, and then something would happen last minute, it'd be like, oh, you start in three weeks' time. So I'd be like, I'm gonna go on holiday and then start work. He was like, How have you done that every time?

SPEAKER_04 15:30

Yeah, I have a friend who who's exactly like that actually, and obviously it does come down to talent, but I also think it is actually fair to say that like there isn't a lot of people. All timing in my life.

SPEAKER_00 15:40

I said I say this all the time. When you mentioned about like my CV, I'm I I do have a very nice CV, and I always say I'm very lucky to have done what I do, and people go, No, no, no, it's talent. And I'm like, yes, to book a gig you have to, but it's also luck as in its timing. Like so much of my first, I would say my first like five jobs, I'll really quickly write it down. So I was on Flashdance, um, my dream job was Chicago, which I knew was auditioning, and I couldn't get in the room because Grimrods had seen me for Grimrod's the casting director for Chicago, anyone who didn't know. Um they'd seen me for Joseph when I was graduating as well, and I was like fresh out of college, long like blonde curtains, like trying to be a cover Joseph. Yeah, naturally blonde until I cut it short and then it never grew back.

SPEAKER_03 16:22

Oh my gosh!

SPEAKER_00 16:23

Crazy blonde, like almost peroxide when I was a child. It was weird.

SPEAKER_03 16:26

Your little curtains.

SPEAKER_00 16:26

Yeah, like curtain bowl cut, it was more of a bowl cut. Um so I like had auditioned like to look like I should fit in Joseph. And then while I was on talk, they were like, mm, we see him more as that, not a Chicago boy. And I was like, I've been gym in for a year, I've cut my hair really short, I've dyed it darker, like I know that I can do Chicago.

SPEAKER_04 16:45

The things we do for this industry.

SPEAKER_00 16:46

I was like, I know I can do it, and they were like, No, we don't think he's right, but there was a connection through that fully gone instead. There was a connection through my show that a resident there used to be resident on Chicago, was best friends with them, and was like, Wow, he was at the venue, it might have been Plymouth. No, it wasn't Plymouth. He was at the venue when I was talking to her about it. So she literally called me over and was like, You need to meet each other, you need a swing, he's a great screen.

SPEAKER_04 17:06

That's time in the room.

SPEAKER_00 17:08

So the next day I like went down to London, went into what I thought was the first round, it was everyone else's like fourth round for the show. Wow. Thought Stephen Crockett was gonna throw me out of the room because I wasn't on the list. And luckily, the the DC resident stood up and was like, No, no, no, he's he's with me. And then, like, the flip, he was like, Hi, darling. I was like, Oh my god, like fresh graduate, didn't want to upset anyone. I was like, I don't want to upset anyone. Now I'd be like, shut up, I'm in. But um, but yeah, because of that, I got that connection. And then when I was on Chicago, another guy introduced me to um a choreographer who actually shan't be named anymore. Um, introduced to a choreographer who was doing a little like one night gig at the Albert Hall. So pulled me into an audition for that, did that.

SPEAKER_04 17:48

Super full at the Albert Hall.

SPEAKER_00 17:49

Yeah, I've done it a few times. Um, and then from there, they he was like, Oh, I'm also doing something at Chichester this summer. Would you like to come on audition for that? So it was literally back to back to back to back, like of my agent doing the most, but at the same time me connecting to get in the room. So it's all luck and timing as well.

SPEAKER_04 18:04

Sometimes it is not not not fully, but sometimes it is uh who you're gonna be. I think they're hand in hand.

SPEAKER_00 18:10

They're 100% hand in hand. 100% it's also lucky in terms of what tracks are available because you might have the talent for the show, but the person that you are gonna have to replace isn't leaving. So again, it's timing and luck.

SPEAKER_04 18:20

There's so much I've learned about this puzzle.

SPEAKER_00 18:22

Yeah since do you fit the costumes?

SPEAKER_04 18:24

Yeah, do you it like whoever so when I was um I did Bonnie and Clyde last year and I actually had to oh my god I didn't get to see that version, but I love that soundtrack.

SPEAKER_00 18:34

I wish I'd seen it.

SPEAKER_04 18:35

So I like for me, like what it was eight years since graduating, and I hadn't booked a musical at Denniship and stuff. So for me to even book that was just like oh my god, I've made it. Oh two, three back in the room. Um I'm back, I'm back, guys. Um so yeah, I had the director here, and she was saying that when she cast um Bonnie and Clyde, she had two casts. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She had two casts, and she didn't what did she say? I want to get this right. So I played Bonnie's mum, and she was saying, for example, if um, this isn't how it went, but this is kind of the gist. If I or the other mum wasn't available, then that would affect who then got Bonnie because the other Bonnie might be older. Do you know what I mean? Like that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00 19:26

The jigsaw.

SPEAKER_04 19:26

Yeah, the jigsaw. And I so so they can sometimes they don't even offer everyone at the same time, which I didn't know. Yeah, I was clueless to that. I thought, like, if everyone's a yes, they all just get offered it, and if they don't, then they'll reassess. But actually, it's like they offer maybe a few parts, see who's got availability, who hasn't, and then if someone hasn't, that might affect you getting the role.

SPEAKER_00 19:48

It's crazy but a butterfly effect.

SPEAKER_04 19:50

It literally is the butterfly effect, like crazy. So circling back to my question, how was it going from basically you know, job to job to then having that break? Was it needed?

SPEAKER_00 20:02

Was it nice, or was it like Yeah, mine was mine was by choice, to be fair. Mine was um so I did a job out in I did Moulin Rouge in London, and then they flew three of us out to Australia to finish the Australian tour contract. Whereabouts from Australia in Melbourne for four months.

SPEAKER_03 20:16

It was Oh, for four months?

SPEAKER_00 20:18

Four months we were there, just well, just under. I was honestly the best time of my life. Like I miss it every single day. If I can move to Australia now, I'd be gone. I'd be good.

SPEAKER_04 20:25

I tell, so my ex is Australian, so I went there for two months. I literally had this conversation like two days ago. If anyone can get yourselves to Australia, do it. Isn't it just everything's so open, like it's not like crammed? Everyone's so chilled and like yeah, the sun makes a massive difference. Everyone's like, G'day, like it's just how you're going. So you had, yeah, so you had the best time.

SPEAKER_00 20:50

Yeah, so it was incredible. And I came, I came back and I was like, I don't really know what to do in terms of career-wise, like I'm getting older, like, do I still want to go for ensemble roles? Like, I got very stuck in the bracket of um swing dance captain, which I'm not complaining about at all. It was fantastic, but I kind of went, I think I'm done in that world.

SPEAKER_04 21:09

Like they do, sorry to interrupt, they do say actually, I've had this, which uh listeners might not know, that sometimes that does happen that once you once you're a swing, you kind of a scene as that, or watch your first cover, it's really hard to make the step up to the lead.

SPEAKER_00 21:26

Yeah, I think it's yeah, it's very easy to get a pigeon hold, especially with something like swing and dance captain because it's such a specialised skill in terms of not everyone can do it, not everyone can do it, not everyone wants to do it, and I think they're aware that a lot of people wouldn't take it. So as soon as you've got it a few times on your CV, they're like, Oh, give them swing. Like, there's obviously the bonus of you get paid more money. Some people prefer having that like change up of tracks. I know mentally it's better for me on a long contract to be a swing. Like just doing one track eight times a week for a year, I go crazy.

SPEAKER_04 21:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:56

So like I would need a cover or a swing or something like that, but.

SPEAKER_04 22:00

Things up and make it.

SPEAKER_00 22:00

Yeah, just to keep your brain fresh. But it's um but yeah, you it is easy to get pigeonholed. So I kind of I was like, I need to step away from that. There's nothing particularly right for me around at the moment. And then one show came through which I auditioned for a an ensemble cover-in, and I kind of I don't know where where I got the balls to do it, but I kind of went, I can play that role, like I'm not covering it, I can play it. As you should have you found it, and they were like, No, we actually haven't. And I was like, then see me for it, or I'm not coming in at all. So I went back in the room for the role.

SPEAKER_04 22:30

Now, is that you speaking to your agent or is that you speaking directly to the castle?

SPEAKER_00 22:33

A bit of both, because I did know the team from a previous job.

SPEAKER_04 22:36

Nice.

SPEAKER_00 22:36

Um, so a bit of both, but I really like dug my heels in and ended up, it was between me and the guy that ended up doing the the show, which um like my my family and I were like, Oh, I'm so sorry, like that's such a shame. And I was like, No, it's not. Like, that's I've it was still such a payoff for me to go. I knew I could do it, I knew I could get that far. Like, I'm glad I dug my heels in.

SPEAKER_02 22:54

Amazing.

SPEAKER_00 22:55

Um, and I didn't, and they kind of they were really lovely, they were like, look, the ensemble track's still available if you want. And it's that thing where you're like, that's a year's worth of money in town. I still get to go on for the role, like, do I want to do it? And I went, no, I have to stick to my guns and say no.

SPEAKER_04 23:07

So you said no.

SPEAKER_00 23:07

So I said no.

SPEAKER_04 23:09

Sorry, that in my opinion. But in my opinion, in this industry, the only thing that we have that's in our control is saying no. 100% because everything else is up to other people, whether we're right for it, whether we fit the jigsaw. The only thing within our power is to say no. Yeah, for sure. So I love that you were like, Do you know what? I believe in myself, I know what I want.

SPEAKER_00 23:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 23:37

And I I and you stuck to that. Yeah. That's incredible. Because it's quite a bit.

SPEAKER_00 23:41

It's made, do you know what? It wasn't even about like because obviously some people would be like, oh, the love of stage, did you miss that? At that point, I think because of where I was living and the situation I was in, I was like, it was just watching money go out the window. Do you know what I mean? That was the hardest thing to say no. You were like, why am I saying no to that money? And then I was like, you can make money anywhere. I've got hustle jobs, like it's fine. If I need to move out my flat and go back to my parents, fine, I'll do it. Like, I'm not, I'm not worried about that. Like, so I said no, and then and then we had a moment where actually my agent, it was my old agent now, kept calling me and he was like, I promise that I am working for you. There is just nothing around at the minute, and I was like, I'm fine, I'm not, I'm not worried. Literally, I'm not stressed at all. I'm walking dogs for a living, I'm more than happy. Like, I love my life. Yes, I was working at West End Tails at the time, and I also lived in an area that was it's so hard to find accommodation where you can have a dog in London. But I was on a new build complex in East London that was completely dog-friendly. So basically, everyone had a dog, but it was kind of coming out of COVID, so everyone was going back to work. So I was just like, I'll walk your dogs today. So I was on the Rover app, like literally earning a bomb every day, just taking dogs back and forward from a park.

SPEAKER_03 24:43

Oh my gosh, that's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 24:45

Including my own dog, so I didn't have to leave him on his own. Like, yeah, it was it was amazing.

SPEAKER_03 24:48

That's a side hustle if I ever did hear one.

SPEAKER_00 24:50

So yeah, so I was just like, Rover, you're welcome. Again, sponsor me. Um but uh but yeah, so it was it was a weird thing that it was kind of the first time that I had ever put myself out of work, but actually for me to figure out what I wanted to do was it was amazing. It was such a great, I think it was how would it have been? I got back in like February. I had a little gig being an assistant choreographer already set up in April, so I was like another way that I could turn down the job. So I was like, I also really want to go and do that, I don't want to let them down. So I did that for that was like five weeks of work, and then I did nothing until I did a workshop in October, and then that went straight into a panto. So I had a good like six months not doing anything.

SPEAKER_04 25:32

And then did you have the best time just actually living life?

SPEAKER_00 25:36

Evenings off. I could see friends and family, I could go wherever I wanted to go.

SPEAKER_04 25:41

Like I really miss just sitting on my sofa, having dinner, sitting down, open like a nice Pepsi mat, watch like a nice programme. Like, we get that on a Sunday. Yeah. Or like I think it's like a Monday now.

SPEAKER_00 25:53

Like I was talking to someone about this the other day, like when you get that one day off as well, you're so torn between it sounds like a woe is me, but it's literally like I'm exhausted from the week. Do I just slob out all day and rest and recover? But then I feel guilty that I haven't done anything or go to see people. So then the next Sunday you'll book yourself up like full socialite, and you get home and you're like, Oh god, I've not had a day off, and we start working again tomorrow.

SPEAKER_04 26:15

Oh my god, it's been two weeks.

SPEAKER_00 26:16

It's like you never I think of it as like a phone battery, like you just can't get yourself to 100%. Like you're always running from like 85 down, you're like, come on.

SPEAKER_04 26:24

Because it's so it is tiring what we do, like it's it's a lot on our bodies.

SPEAKER_00 26:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 26:29

Um, let's talk about social media. Let's because you're a content creator, right?

SPEAKER_00 26:34

Yeah, weirdly.

SPEAKER_04 26:35

Yeah, I am utterly obsessed with your videos. Like, I'm always in his DMs, like, rate this, love this energy, go girl! Like, I am like your love bottom water. How did that all start? Because I so we met um doing my lovely agents, uh, she did a cabaret, and we we met there. Um and I I knew of you through social media through that, but um I don't remember where it started. Like, talk to me how that all started.

SPEAKER_00 27:04

It was so right, so lockdown TikTok became a thing. It did. And I remember being like, I'm I mean, what would I been in lockdown? Like 31, 32. I was like, I'm not dancing on an app. Like, I also was injured, I tore my Achilles just before lockdown, so I like I physically couldn't jump on the bandwagon straight away. But I was like, oh no, I'm a bit too old for this. Like, I do Instagram already, and like my Insta was okay. I think I had about 20,000 followers at that time. That was kind yeah, that was from like musical theatre and the older thirst traps every now and then in the gay community. All the gays can get the followers. Um yeah, so I had gay. I had I think I had like yeah, like 15 to 20k followers uh going into lockdown. And I'd been pushing for ages, like to get, I don't know why, but Instagram had always been a thing where I was like, oh, I'd love to have a following on it. I don't know why, I don't know how people make money out of it, I don't know what it is, but like I don't know. I think as an ensemble person, you're like, oh, if I get a following, like I'll get a lead. It was always kind of that.

SPEAKER_04 28:02

Yeah, I don't know. Can you make money off Instagram?

SPEAKER_00 28:05

You can. I don't even know. You can monetize it, but I don't understand how there's too much reading involved, so I couldn't bother to set it up. No, no, no. TikToks was a lot easier, it's just like click, does. Yeah, yeah. Um so oh, table, so sorry. Breaking the set. Um that is a set. Um so yeah, so I actually started when I was in Frozen out of lockdown. So it was I think it was January 2021. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 28:27

Ah, we talked about Josh with the Josh and Ker.

SPEAKER_00 28:30

I know Josh from Kinky Boots Tour before. That was our first job together.

SPEAKER_04 28:33

Ah, and then you did frozen together.

SPEAKER_00 28:34

On that we booked Frozen together, yeah. Got your so um, so yeah, randomly I was like, I'm gonna download. I think it was like January 2022. I was like, I'm gonna download TikTok Sod it. So then me and a guy called Jack Skelly in the show used to do like random dance trends on the stage together, or like I'd just do lip syncs or like silly backstage videos, and it started to kind of build and take off there, and I was like, oh, this is fun, like it's it's just a creative outlet.

SPEAKER_04 28:59

I was just about to say, it's a creative outlet that's in your control, that's away from like conditioning and stuff. Yeah, very that.

SPEAKER_00 29:05

And it was um frozen, as I said before, like frozen. I was an ensemble track, I was an assistant dance captain, and I had a cover of Josh and Claire's, I was Josh's first cover, so for Pabby. Yeah. So like a little Oh, you're such a Pabby! Such a Pabby. Such a Pabby. Um so I had that, but the way that we did it, I didn't do his whole track, I just took Pabby into my own track, so it wasn't really that different from what I was doing every night anyway. So um, so for me it was a way of like keeping my brain occupied with something new, and it just started building from there, really. And I genuinely, like I always used to say, because people are like, Oh, do you not feel a bit cringe posting things and stuff? And I was like, I genuinely just enjoy it.

SPEAKER_03 29:38

Like And also who gets it.

SPEAKER_00 29:40

I know what's really funny is I've actually got people, and I'd never say who they are, but people that I could tell were always like, oh, that's really cringe, who now do it because they because you've seen like other people grow and what and then like they get a brand deal or they get invited to events, and then suddenly other people start posting things, and you're like, Oh boo, I see you, I see what you're doing.

SPEAKER_04 29:57

That doesn't honestly like I don't know whether it's because I I quite rarely, I'm very lucky, I quite rarely feel embarrassed, but I've never once looked at your content and thought it's cringe or anything like that. And I think that's really like for people to even make that comment or even have that assumption, I'm like, you must be embarrassed.

SPEAKER_00 30:15

I was gonna say it's all a thing, it's all a reflection of yourself, isn't it? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 30:18

Completely because it it's not embarrassing, it's fun, we love your content. So how did you because your content has changed massively, yeah. So you now do wait, can you explain what you do? Because I'm gonna explain it really badly. You you no, you don't, you don't.

SPEAKER_00 30:33

You can't explain it badly. I basically just dance in my kitchen and then do tutorials of it. So I'll just like break the dance down.

SPEAKER_04 30:39

Yeah, you take like a music video, yes, and you do it, and like you split the screen so you can see the music video at the top, and then you do it. Yeah, do it underneath. People are loving it.

SPEAKER_00 30:49

People went crazy for it. It's one do you know what it's one of those things I've been speaking to some people recently that have been like, oh, I'd love to start, but I feel like there's loads of people that already do what my niche would be, and like, so it's a bit saturated, and it's gonna the complete opposite on social media. I don't think people can get enough of something if they love it.

SPEAKER_02 31:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:03

So like if someone loves a dance video, they're not just gonna love one dance creator, they're gonna love every everyone that's doing it.

SPEAKER_03 31:09

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:10

So I saw it all star it really randomly started. I think the first dance video I did was from the first wicked movie, maybe.

SPEAKER_03 31:19

Dancing through life.

SPEAKER_00 31:20

Yeah, it was either that one, oh, it's the you know the Glinda Book one when they were going down the road. Yeah, wasn't that it wasn't that long ago. We did a couple of like little dance friends, like I said, with Jack and stuff like that in Frozen, or um, I did one with my partner Jack to a Britney song at one point, and like they did okay, but kind of lip syncs were doing better, so that's where I'd pushed for a long time. And then um, and then yeah, I think it was like it was either that one or what's the um a real money do, many do dunno, uh from Gatsby, yeah. Like that went crazy, and what I didn't realise is a friend of mine that I know from New York was on the Great Gatsby um social media team, so like he shared all of my stuff, which helped it go crazy. And I was like, oh my god, like me reposting, like, oh my god, Gatsby have seen my thing, and he messaged me and he was like, That was me. You're welcome. He was like, I'm also doing the notebook. Do you want to get something from that? I was like, thrilled!

SPEAKER_04 32:11

But it just shows, like, and I say this with like my podcast as well, and like for me, like this is a passion project, like I'm really not aiming to get. I mean, I wouldn't go amiss, I wouldn't, I'd love it if I had thousands of views, but a share, just one share, really can change a lot of things. Honestly, it really does. And people really that's why I'm always like, Chef, guys, be chef.

SPEAKER_00 32:28

Yeah, but um it is crazy, the interruption's crazy, and then it just yeah, and it just went from there. So then my partner did Moulin Rouge out in Amsterdam, and I had a break from finishing Panto before Hercules was starting, and I was like, Do I find a little job? Or I was like, his accommodation's paid for. I need we need to get the dog out there anyway, because he was taking the dog over there for a year. So I was like, Do you know what? I'm just gonna come and live with you for three months. Like in Amsterdam. Yeah, so we lived at where it's in um Utrecht, just outside, which is beautiful.

SPEAKER_04 32:55

This is another thing I like about our industry is that we can do it.

SPEAKER_00 32:58

The travel wild.

SPEAKER_04 32:59

Yeah, we can do that. Like we can make the decision to be like, you know what? Let's not work for three months. Like, I'm in a stable position right now, let's do this. Where if we worked at like an office job, like you just couldn't do that. Yeah, that's a real bonus of our industry.

SPEAKER_00 33:10

Oh, it's insane. So, yeah, so we went out there, and then that was when Lady Gargar's Abracadabra came out. Yeah, and I did that one which she like reposted, commented on, shared it everywhere. Lady Gaga literally commented. I babe I I was shook at I made a video of my reaction to like seeing it. I was literally like, what the heck?

SPEAKER_03 33:27

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_00 33:28

So and then so then literally overnight, that was actually a TikTok video. Overnight I woke up and I'd gained like 50k followers or something. It was wild. So TikTok went crazy. And then when I came back to the UK and I was doing Hercules, the next one that really did it for me for my Instagram was um K-pop Demon Hunters, massive fan. Yeah, really love it. Um, I did that one and it popped, I think it's at like 9.4 million views or something on Insta at the minute. But that was hysterical. Me and my friend were sat backstage, literally refreshing my phone, and it was like 100k followers, 101k followers, 102k followers. Constant golden, but girl, yeah, yeah, the wanted golden, which was just wild. And again, it's that funny thing that like you see the you see the animation, and that's the video I put over the top of it, but I'd learnt it from another content creator who I she broke the dance down in a tutorial. So I'd tagged her and everything in it, like, thank you so much for the tutorial, posted it, that went crazy, and that's kind of the time when people really started going, Oh, can we do a tutorial on yours? So that's why I do the split screen one because I hadn't seen anyone else do it that way by that point. So a lot of people mirror it, which as a dancer I don't find helpful. Like a teacher doesn't mirror for me in a class, like I find it really confusing. So I do a front-facing one and a rear-facing one, which is how you would learn in class. So I was like, this will help some people, and then it went crazy. And people were like, We love these tutorials, like sharing it, like I'm teaching you in class.

SPEAKER_04 34:49

And you get um you get requests now, don't you? Of like, oh, please can you do this song?

SPEAKER_00 34:54

No, I'm gonna show you my phone.

SPEAKER_04 34:55

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 34:56

This is hysterical. So I don't because I'm gonna forget everything. When someone comments, I don't take pictures anymore. These are all screenshots of the requests of what people are wanting me to do. Oh, literally just tags of comments. Wow. Um, just what they are, because I'll forget, and then there's like other photos interspersed in, but like they literally go back months and months and months of ones that I still haven't done.

SPEAKER_03 35:16

So you're never short of content. Never short of content. Which is really not.

SPEAKER_00 35:21

I mean, some of them, I'm not kidding, some of them come through and I watch the video and I'm like, absolutely not. Not doing that, so sorry. So if you don't get one, it's probably because I can't. Um, yeah, some of them or or there's obviously ones that are like, I don't want to touch if it's like a cultural dance or something, I'm like, that's that's not for me to touch on without being taught properly. Like, I don't want to, I don't want to upset people. Yeah, so um, so yeah, but yeah, they've just gone great. And like Taylor Swift reshared one when I did hers, and it's like you said, all it takes is that one share and it just goes wild.

SPEAKER_04 35:51

And how do you feel that like because I I didn't know that people were like using it in dance classes and stuff, like how does that make you feel that you're in people's homes and they're like learning it off you?

SPEAKER_00 35:59

Well, a little bit like a copyright fraud, because sometimes when they're like, like someone tagged me the other day and they're like learning Jason Winter's dance. I messaged back and was like, It's not my dance, babe. I've tagged the choreographer and they're like, please tag the choreographer up.

SPEAKER_04 36:09

That's good to know as well.

SPEAKER_00 36:10

So with your content, you make sure you credit every single time, unless it's something like um, unless I can't find them, and then I'll normally write someone like please tag choreographer if anyone knows who it is or something, or if the choreographer doesn't have social media.

SPEAKER_04 36:22

You're never claiming anything because like your own.

SPEAKER_00 36:24

Absolutely not. So, like I did a hairspray one the other day, so Adam um from the film and Adam Shankman, the choreographer for that, I know his Instagram account because we follow each other, so I tagged that on it. Um, but I couldn't find him on um TikTok or YouTube, so I just would write like choreographer and then write his name so that people know like it's not my own material. But obviously, some people just don't recaptions or whatever, which is fine. But I'll as if it ever comes through to me, I'm always like, not mine, not taking credit for this.

SPEAKER_04 36:48

Like and do you plan to just like keep growing that and just yeah?

SPEAKER_00 36:51

So I've had quite a lot of things. I'm excited to finish the contract I'm in and have some downtime because there's a lot of things that I get invited to that I currently can't go to, like events for shows, or they do a lot of um, especially with like K-pop uh groups and stuff, they come over and do open class for people so you can go and learn like their new song for their new um record because then they know we post it and it helps promote the song as well.

SPEAKER_04 37:11

Obviously, I don't think we mentioned it. He's in Hercules at the moment. Yes, so because you're in Hercules, you're unable to always.

SPEAKER_00 37:17

It's always evenings, so I can't go. I did go to I got invited to the Kinky Boots at the Coliseum The Gala on Sunday, which I was able to go to. I was so it came through and I was like, Yay!

SPEAKER_03 37:27

I can do this one.

SPEAKER_00 37:29

It's so good. It's I it's really weird because I did the show for like three years, so I've got such a special place in my heart for the show, and it's there's one of those things where you're like, Oh, it's not the same version. So, like, do I feel a bit like protective over our version? I didn't know it was. Yeah, no, it's a new it's a new version, so it's you kind of feel protective of yours, but at the same time, like it's so much fun. That show's so beautiful. They were working their butts off on that stage, like it's the energy was out of this world. Um, yeah, it's so and it was so cute to sit and watch it. I'll be like, this story is still so current, the message is still so important.

SPEAKER_04 37:59

And it was on a Sunday, and you can't.

SPEAKER_00 38:00

And it was on a Sunday, and I could go. It was in the afternoon as well, so I still got my evening free.

SPEAKER_04 38:03

Oh my god. Thank you, Pranos. That was gorgeous. Um I honestly feel like we could talk all day. For hours. I honestly feel like we could. Um we're gonna go into my next section. I don't know why I can't say section on this podcast. Um I'm gonna go into my next section, which is called Backstage Drama.

SPEAKER_00 38:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 38:21

And I basically just want to know if you have anything like an unhinged story, an embarrassing story, a funny story, just to like share with us, just for shits and gigs.

SPEAKER_00 38:33

What have I got? I've got, do you know what? I've got a few little ones that aren't like crazy, crazy. Unhinged is normally me these days because I feel like as an older member of the cast, like you have experience of things that you've been through. Yeah. So when things don't quite go right, I'm very quick at walking off and being like, no, that's not acceptable. That needs to be sorted. Yeah. Because I remember being the young one in the cast and you've and you don't want to rock the boat and you're not really sure what what's right. And I'm like, no, we're not getting walked over.

SPEAKER_04 39:00

I think that comes with age as well. 100%. I felt like that. I remember when I was when I was younger, I didn't want to I knew what was right and what was wrong, but you kind of don't want to be problematic.

SPEAKER_00 39:10

100%.

SPEAKER_04 39:11

Where like when you're older, you find a way of saying it without being problematic.

SPEAKER_00 39:17

So this is what's and also people know that you're more experienced, so they know that you've got a comparison and you're not just being a diva. They're like, sure, you've done other stuff.

SPEAKER_02 39:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:25

So unhinged probably that is me. The most unhinged audition experience I've ever had was for my first job, which was flash dance. And we obviously we're thinking flash dance, we're all dressed in like 80s dance gear, we've all got leg warmers on. Um for the audition. For the audition. Oh like you have to. Oh, we all weren't like full out, yeah. Not anymore, I never would. But then then it was a thing, it was really weird.

SPEAKER_04 39:45

Yeah, no, it the industry's changed since yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:48

So we um were all ready in our block dance trainers and god knows what else, and um get through the dance round, singing round start, and one of my friends was beginning of the alphabet. Luckily, I'm the end of the alphabet, thrilled. Um she came out of the room, was like, guys, they asked if I had a rap. And we were all like, hmm? That was not a breakdown. She was like, I had to rap. So we were all like, oh god.

SPEAKER_03 40:07

Improv rap.

SPEAKER_00 40:08

Do A rap? They were like, Do you know a rap? Oh my god, the only one that comes to my mind.

SPEAKER_04 40:13

This one is for the boys at the boomer system tap down ACL. That was the only one that is that a rap? I don't know. Sure.

SPEAKER_00 40:18

The only one that came into my mind?

SPEAKER_04 40:19

What?

SPEAKER_00 40:20

Fresh Prince of Bel-Air theme tune.

SPEAKER_04 40:22

Oh my god, iconic! That's iconic.

SPEAKER_00 40:24

I had to do it four rounds in a row. Bearing in mind at Lane's, I was like a prima, which is hysterical because I'm not a ballet dancer at all. But I was like one of the ballet boys, very much like technical dancer, um, like legit musical theatre voice. And uh, and yeah, they so I went in and luckily had time to prepare, so I was like, I know the fresh prints rap. So I'm stood, as you do when you do your singing around, like stood on the X, like in West Philadelphia, born and raised on the playground, is where I spend most of my days. They were like, okay, could you do it again? And could you just walk from like one end of the room to the other? And I was like, Well, there was a character in there who did rap, which we didn't know because it's a brand new show, so we had no idea. So um I was like, okay, so there's me in my leg warmest and my dance block trainers walking one end of the room in West Philadelphia, born and raised on a playground. Horrendous, horrendous.

SPEAKER_04 41:13

I would pay to watch that.

SPEAKER_00 41:15

And I was like, at least we'll have to again. Every single round, they made me do the rap. First cover the rap track.

SPEAKER_02 41:22

He's a rapper.

SPEAKER_00 41:23

Mum and dad were like, oh my god, what are you doing? I was like, I'm a I'm swing, I'm second cover the league guy, and I'm first cover. His name was CeCe. Yeah. So it's a double character. Three of the boys paid like double characters. So you're a factory boy, and then like a nightclub guy, like a like a goodie and a villain almost. His name was CeCe, and he was like drug dealer rapper. I was like, Yeah, I'm playing this role. I have no experience on any of this whatsoever.

SPEAKER_04 41:46

I was like, it's just gonna be experience in drug dealer?

SPEAKER_00 41:49

Wild. I mean like my parents come and watch, and Little Me walks out. Top of Act 2 is his rap. How did it start? That is how I'd like to welcome you, gentlemen, to a night of titillation. Like, literally. Full leather coat, leather trousers, purple Cuban heels. I had to walk out. He had a necklace that was um for naughty deeds. Walk out literally like at the top of the show. I felt so out of place, but I loved that character. It was iconic.

SPEAKER_04 42:13

Because it's so opposite to you, it's fun.

SPEAKER_00 42:15

Yeah, it was so cool. I was like, what, 19? And I was like, this is hysterical. Like, what is going on?

SPEAKER_04 42:20

I cannot believe that.

SPEAKER_00 42:21

Yeah, girls pole dancing behind me. I was like, God, my ballot teacher would have a heart attack.

SPEAKER_04 42:25

That see, that that's that's a worse audition story than what I the only the only like not bad but like weird audition story I have is um it actually genuinely wasn't funny. It was more just like, what on earth is going on? They made me um sing a song that they'd written on the whiteboard that they taught me in front of the panel.

SPEAKER_00 42:48

Yeah, it was what in the secondary school was going on.

SPEAKER_04 42:53

And the thing is, the whiteboard was there the whole time. I didn't notice it. And um, I was talking to the panel, bear in mind so many things happened in this audition. Like I was brought in for the wrong character, like it was it was honestly like a shit show. And and then they were like, So if you just see this whiteboard, and I just looked and there was like all this writing, they were like, We're gonna teach it you. I'm not joking, like probably like three and a half minutes. Can you imagine? I sang it all flat, there was riffs and everything in it. No, no, no. No, no, no, there was no, yeah, no, no, no. I I don't know why I did it. I like genuinely, because I think after that was my first experience of like this is weird. Do you know what I mean? And I think I think now potentially because I knew I wasn't gonna do a good job, because I'm not like I know my skill, I'm not a person that you can teach me a song in three and a half minutes, that's pop, that's riff, yeah, that and I'm gonna perform that great end.

SPEAKER_00 43:47

But you can.

SPEAKER_04 43:48

But they told me um the acting side of it, like they were like, right, so you're going through a breakup, but this is what happened, they just knocked the door, and I'm thinking, I don't I don't even know the first note.

SPEAKER_00 44:00

About my intention.

SPEAKER_04 44:01

Like, I just want to get through, but I think now, like, what would you have done in that situation? Because I think now I would have been like, I'm really sorry, I wasn't prepared to do this. It wasn't on the Yeah, I'd say no.

SPEAKER_00 44:10

I think a heads up would have been nice.

SPEAKER_04 44:12

Yeah, and I think like at that point the job wasn't for me. It's so weird. Isn't that strange?

SPEAKER_00 44:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 44:18

So that's my not funny but weird audition story. But I'd much prefer maybe to do the rap instead.

SPEAKER_00 44:26

Well now I know I've got a rap on the loop in my head. Like I'm word perfect on that bad boy.

SPEAKER_02 44:30

I love that.

SPEAKER_00 44:31

I have just thought of another one on stage as well, actually. Oh, good luck. I'm not gonna say the show or the performer's name because I don't want to give anything away. But um, we were on stage in this one scene, and there's a character that's in the scene but doesn't say anything, doesn't do anything at any point, and we're all on the stage watching the rest of it happen, and then suddenly out the corner of my eye, I see this actor walk to the front of the stage, click up into the into the auditorium, wave to let the spotlight tower because their spot wasn't on. Spotlight hits them, and they walked back to their position and stood there. Bear in mind, they do nothing in the whole scene. I have never lost it, so I'm the worst corpser on stage in my entire like out of anyone.

SPEAKER_04 45:07

Was it serious or was it?

SPEAKER_00 45:09

100% deadly serious because their spot wasn't on them. And I went, because I absolutely adore this person, I went, that's iconic. I want to be that I would love to have the balls to do that.

SPEAKER_04 45:17

Did they get in trouble?

SPEAKER_00 45:18

No, absolutely not. Absolutely not. It was so it was so good. Like, I wish, I wish that I had a recording of it. It was great. Just literally, all of us concentrating on the actual scene, and then suddenly we were like, what is happening? Thank you. I was like, I would have to do it.

SPEAKER_04 45:33

I love you. I I I would have to do that. It was so good.

SPEAKER_00 45:36

That's probably my best part. I faced upstage and just shook for the rest of the scene. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 45:43

Bad.

SPEAKER_00 45:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 45:45

Um so our next section is called Cut the Glitz and Glam. And this is uh the part of the podcast that I wanna take the mood slightly down, not too gloomy, but the realness of the industry. Um now, because obviously we were speaking about social media and stuff. Have you ever experienced trolling?

SPEAKER_00 46:05

Yes, a lot.

SPEAKER_04 46:08

How do we even touch upon this? How do you I mean, I'm obviously extremely sorry because that shouldn't be happening anyway, but how do you deal with that?

SPEAKER_00 46:18

So I have dealt with it by seeing other people go through it. Like I watched Hannah Lowther go through a lot. Yeah, I watched Carrie Hope Fletcher go through a lot. Um, and mine has been nowhere near to the extremities of those.

SPEAKER_04 46:30

Um it still doesn't take it away from No, not not at all.

SPEAKER_00 46:34

And it's do you know what at the start? That was the thing that when I said earlier about people being like, oh, like, is it a bit cringe? Is it a bit embarrassing what you're doing? That is the moment when you do question what you're doing and you're like, maybe I need to stop this. Like maybe sorry, the coffee just made me burp. Um maybe like I'm too old to be doing these dance videos in my kitchen, like grow up, what are you doing? And then I was speaking to a couple of other content creators about it, and the first thing to remember that is a lot of them are bots, a lot of them aren't even real people.

SPEAKER_02 47:00

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_00 47:01

Yeah, a lot of it is fake. Um which I still don't understand why.

SPEAKER_03 47:06

No, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 47:06

I don't understand the point of a bot sending out hate messages. But something that I quickly learnt is that actually, even if they're not bots, if they are real people, someone's way more likely to post something negative than they are something positive. Like if someone loves something, they're probably like, like it, maybe repost it, maybe share it on their story, but won't necessarily, and I do, I would like to say I do get a lot of lovely comments. They probably definitely outweigh my negative in fairness. Like, I think I've been very lucky. It's normally one video falls on the bad side of the algorithm, and then you're like, oh, here we go. Yeah. Um, but then you can tell that they're but because a lot of them are exactly the same thing, and you're like, well, there's no way that everyone's commenting this.

SPEAKER_02 47:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:44

But um it's kind of that like no publicity is bad publicity thing that actually I'm like, do you know what? If you want to comment on my video negatively, I'm gonna respond and say thank you because all you've done is push me into the algorithm more and create more interaction.

SPEAKER_04 47:58

And I also just think, like, because I I know um I've watched you know Carrie's and Hannah's vlogs and stuff, so I know all about that as well. And like I think they say as well, like, if if I don't like something, there is no way in this world that I would go out of my way to tell someone.

SPEAKER_00 48:15

Absolutely not.

SPEAKER_04 48:16

There's just no way, but is that because we're at peace with ourselves?

SPEAKER_00 48:19

Probably, yeah. Because I feel that like been brought out well and we're happy.

SPEAKER_04 48:23

Yeah, I I feel that like the people that you know who on other people's success, as we were saying earlier, I just really think it comes down to the way. It's a reflection on you, yeah. Yeah, and I just think, God, you must be really sad. Yeah, like genuinely.

SPEAKER_00 48:38

That's all you can achieve in your day is to sit and just write hate comments on people's video. Like, why? Yeah, like what are you gaining?

SPEAKER_04 48:44

I just think do people not have like the emotional intelligence to be like, oh, by me saying that, that's gonna make them feel a certain way.

SPEAKER_00 48:49

But I think I think stuff like that, and then I look at like the stuff that goes on in the world these days, and you're like, Do you know what? Nothing surprises me anymore. So if you want to interact with my story, PS, you're now gonna see loads more of my posts because you've interacted with me. So the algorithm thinks you love my stuff. But the algorithm doesn't read the thing and go, oh, they hated it. The algorithm goes, Oh, connection. So who's the fool? So literally, you're gonna keep seeing me dancing in my kitchen, babe.

SPEAKER_04 49:16

It's so true, actually. But yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:19

Yeah, it's wild. But so I've I've got to a really good place. I'd say for anyone that was starting out, the best tool that I found, um, which I think Insta must have it, but I used it mainly on TikTok because that's where I've got the most hate the first, like, first around. When I was struggling with it, there's a filter keywords thing, and you can type in a load of words that you don't want to see. So obviously, as a male dancer, like gay, I put in there, and there was a point when rather than calling people gay, because the internet started blocking that, you couldn't use it as a hate word, so it became, oh, he's zesty was one thing, or he's fruity is one thing, or he's spicy. So all these things that I worked out, I just typed them in, and I was like, I don't have to see them until I'm feeling in a place where I feel comfortable seeing it. And then you can go in and look at all of the comments and go through, and some of them I was like, I'm gonna allow them on my video because it's gonna push me into the algorithm. Yeah, my main thing is I don't want a comment water off a duck's back. I don't care, I don't care what you're saying about me. Like, I'm comfortable with who I am, I'm yeah, I'm happy with what I'm doing. I've got a lovely following of a massive amount of people, and I'm earning from it. So, like, if you want to try and drag me down, like who's laughing? Like, you're sat in your bedroom, I have whatever. So, um, but my thing is I wouldn't want I know that I get a lot of messages from people, which is my favourite thing in the world, that are like I'm inspiring their five, seven, ten, fourteen-year-old son who wants to be a dancer and they're worried about what people think of them, and then they see someone like me dancing in my kitchen, they're like, Oh, if he can do it, I can do it. I wouldn't want them to see a comment that would set them back off their course. So that's why I kind of filter things out that I can go, right, is that going to upset someone or is that clearly a bot or something ridiculous or something that wouldn't trigger with someone? But it's just like I know what I went through when I was younger, and like it's not that's not I wouldn't want someone to say that to my nephews. Like, so if if I think it will affect someone and doing something that they love, then I'll make sure that it's deleted.

SPEAKER_04 51:02

But if not, then you're trying to protect yourself as well as other people, which is so gorgeous. I mean, if people want to hate, let them hate because I said earlier, who's laughing?

SPEAKER_00 51:10

Hate straight into my bank account, boo. Thank you.

SPEAKER_04 51:14

You bought me these glasses, tag that thanks for the shades. Um, so on the opposite side of that, in terms of your theatre work, um do you have a specific moment that like stands out to you that comes into your mind on stage where you think, yeah, this is why I do it? Because obviously, like within this industry, like as much as we're like grateful for the for the job, like we've said, like there are pros and cons, but do you have a moment where you're like, I remember being on stage and being like, yeah?

SPEAKER_00 51:44

My biggest one of those was uh coming out of lockdown. So I got offered frozen before lockdown. I got it in 2019, and then obviously we were meant to open I think summer 2020 was the first projected date, and then it got pushed back to like the beginning of 2021. Then we ended up opening in summer 20 summer 2021.

SPEAKER_02 52:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:03

Um, so we've been waiting a long time for it, and we got all the way through rehearsals and it was really great, and then we had a massively long tech, and it started getting to that point where you were like, We need an audience to watch a show now, like it's getting really dry. Like, obviously, the creatives are no longer laughing at the jokes because they've heard them so many times, they're not even like pity laughing anymore. You're like, Oh my god, this is pain. Silence finish a number, no applause. You're like, ugh. So we had um, we did an invited dress where obviously they couldn't fill the auditorium still because it was coming through lockdowns, you have a social distance. So one circle was all front of house staff, came in to sit and watch it, and like all the people from the offices, and then the dr the royal circle was all about I think we were allowed two or four people each, I think. Um we had them in, and then the stalls was all the creatives and the the computers and stuff, so it wasn't a full house by any means. And um, for anyone that hasn't seen Frozen, it starts we're singing backstage, cloth in, cloth goes out, and you see the two little princesses. Do you want to build us now, man? Blah blah blah blah. They finish, um, you and me, or whatever the lyrics are, it's been a while. Um, curtain flies out, and all of the ensemblists stood around a may pole at the back singing, nah na na here na. The curtain went out, and the noise that that small audience makes is the first time anyone has seen live theater.

SPEAKER_03 53:13

Yeah, we'd all been cooped up.

SPEAKER_00 53:14

It honestly, it's still like it gets me an emotional talking about it. I still get goosebumps. The amount of times I cried telling the story, but it was none of us were singing, none of us could sing. We were all just like so, and you just feel like someone's hand would just reach out and touch you to be like, literally, we were like, guys, we've done it, we've made it. Like we're um Frozen's one of the very few shows, I think, in the West End that we closed for like two days over Christmas, and we didn't have to, we hadn't lost that many people to COVID, but it was just the company going, we don't want anyone to get ill before Christmas, that we want to give you a Christmas holiday. So um, unfortunately, I did get ill on the way on the way home that night. I was like, I don't feel great. Tested, I was positive, and they were like, Oh, we're cancelling the show from tomorrow anyway. So I was like, damn it! But um, but yeah, just that moment of like the curtain went out and that scream that we heard, we were like, Oh, it was just it was amazing. It was so small, it was so powerful.

SPEAKER_04 54:03

That's insane. That reminds me of um, so I used to work front of house. This fly, man, sorry, it's flying everywhere. Um, I used to work front of house uh for DMT, and I uh I worked at Booker Mom, but one time I worked at uh Hamilton and they do a a day, it's called Edgeham, and it's basically for uh children who don't have access to theatre and they come and see the show, and I think that their the school pays for them, and it's like stupid, silly low money to make the it accessible for them so they don't pay a lot for their tickets, absolutely, and like in the interval, like the ice cream's like a pound, and they can't put their pound coins, so it's so normal. Yeah, and um and that reminds me of like the scream, and for them, I guess it's a similar experience, like that's the first time some of them in their life have ever seen theatre, yeah, and like even that just like gives me shivers, and like that's very similar to the moment that you had that like this is in a way the first time that people have seen theatre in so long, and we'd like been cooped up and stuff. So, like what a gorgeous memory to have.

SPEAKER_00 55:07

Yeah, it was incredible. We were such a close-I think because we did we went into lockdown, so they did the cast announcement at the beginning of lockdown. So we did like the whole as a cast, we did like the Zoom quiz thing, and like we did some Zoom workouts together, and then Disney were very good at trying to keep us employed through lockdown. So we filmed like a commercial from home as a cast announcement. Like I got a knock on the door one day and it was a parcel of fake snowballs, and they were like, Can you do something with this for your cast announcement? It was wild. Oh my god, they were like, If you so-and-so's gonna be after you, so if you can throw it to the right of your screen, they'll make sure it comes off the left of the. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 55:36

Like things like love, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:38

So um, so yeah, it was really cute. And then when we could go back out into the public, we actually did a full advert for the show. So, like, there was one of the girls was on the bus, like listening to Let It Go on our headphones, then a few of us were around a piano singing like in rehearsals. Yeah, it was really good. They did the most to keep us close to the curtain. So by the time we got to like the meet and greet, we'd all been chatting for a year. So we were so close, like it was such a such a community that show. Like it was an absolute family. So for those experiences to go through, like when that curtain went up, that was uh yeah, it was wild.

SPEAKER_04 56:06

Unreal.

SPEAKER_00 56:06

So special.

SPEAKER_04 56:07

Um, so we're coming to the end of the podcast. Boom! Um, so this section is called the five-minute call. And it's basically, I just want to give you space to like tell me, tell the listeners, uh, any dreams that you have, what you want to achieve. It can be industry related, not industry related, dream roles, life goals, anything. The space is yours.

SPEAKER_00 56:29

Um that's something that like obviously we get asked a lot, I think, as a performer, and it's something that uh mine particularly has been like ever changing, and it's always different. Um, so I've just signed with a new agent, and one of the things that I was saying to like prospective agents in um interviews and stuff, I was like, Whatever I do next, I want it to be a shock to people. Like, I think I've got to a point where it was very much like when Hercules was announced, I got so many messages that was like, You'll be in Hercules. I was like, Okay, well, I don't want you to know what I'm gonna do next. Like, I I would love to be on a cast list that people literally go, Oh my god, Jason's in that. Jason's playing that part, Jason's in that ensemble. Like, um let's not put an ensemble out there. Um not being pigeonholed, exactly that. Like, I've never done anything film and TV. I'd love to explore that. That's a whole other side of the industry. I don't know if I'm right for it. I also might hate it. Like, I think again, people put film and TV on a pedestal, but not everyone likes to perform that way. Like, I love the buzz you get off a live audience, and I'm so glad that what I've done has been live. Obviously, I would love film and TV money as well.

SPEAKER_04 57:33

But um do you know what I feel that you would love as well? Because you know you were saying earlier, like lead, like get your own dresser, the trailer, so get me that catering. Yeah, so I've I've worked, um I worked on two movies last year. Um I was crew on them. I actually did a little cameo and some of them. Thank you. Um but the cast, the talent, get treated like celebrities. Yeah, it's wild. Oh my god, it's actually baffling how different it is to musical theatre.

SPEAKER_00 58:03

The only thing I've done kind of that world was uh randomly, again, through a connection, wasn't an audition. Um when one of the one of or the first Captain America movie came out, there's a section in it where he's like being presented around as the soldier, and there's um a load of girls dancing around him. Three girls sing like a little um almost like Andrew's sisters thing. Yeah. Um he lifts them up on a motorbike at the end of the section and stuff like that, and there's all these girls with flags dancing around. And um, they needed a stand-in for him, and uh so I knew I had a connection there. They called, they were like, Are you free? I was like, Yeah, fine. So I went and stood on set, and even that I got treated like an absolute prince. So it was wild.

SPEAKER_04 58:42

So that was my um my first job on uh TV and film. I was a stand-in for Angry Rice on uh Find an Emily. Yeah, and she played Katie and Mean Girls in the movies. Yeah, um I was treated It's insane, wasn't it? I was treated like I was Angry Rice.

SPEAKER_00 59:00

Yeah, yeah, literally it was so fun. Like anytime it stops, do you need anything? Do you need a drink? Do you need that? I was like, babe, I've literally stood on an X for like two hours playing. I think I was playing like Candy Crush or something on my phone while girls danced around me.

SPEAKER_04 59:12

But isn't it such an experience? And like I think that's such a nice um experience for people to have when they want to go into the film and TV industry that like it's not a shock to our system like now. If we if we I was gonna say if we were ever when we do book film and TV jobs, we know how it runs.

SPEAKER_02 59:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 59:28

Because before I did my stand-in, I genuinely had no idea how it ran, like not a clue. Different world, completely different world, but I fear that you would love it.

SPEAKER_00 59:38

I think I'd really love it. Yeah. So yeah, I'd like to, I just kind of want to keep doing random things.

SPEAKER_04 59:44

Like I wanna do things that aren't the obvious, and um maybe your dreams and things you want to achieve you don't even know yet.

SPEAKER_00 59:52

Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 59:53

And I think I'm the same.

SPEAKER_00 59:54

One of my favourite things that someone says is when it's like, what is your dream role? And it's like my dream role hasn't been written yet. Because it's not that like there's loads of dream roles that I wanted to go to, and I've got to a really funny place now, actually, where I think for so long you hold on to as a younger performer, it's always like the romantic lead, you want to be that part, and blah blah blah. And then you start to get older and you're like, Oh, I don't really know if I'm that part anymore, I'm not that casting. So then you get into like a no man's land, and I think I'm still on the younger end of that spectrum, but like in Hercules, everyone goes, Oh, you're covering Hercules. I'm like, No, I'm covering Hades, like I'm the older villain, and I love it. Yeah, everyone knows go the distance. I don't want the pressure of singing that every night or once once a week or whatever. Like, no one knows Hades' song, they don't know how he's gonna be performed. Like, um, I keep joking with people, I'm like, give me a dad in Mamma Mia. I'd be thrilled. Like, but I think my dream role is something that no one else has done yet, and it's not been written yet, and it's something that I'll get to create, and it will fit on me so well, and it will just everything falls into place when it should.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:48

And I'll be there front row. Woohoo!

SPEAKER_00 1:00:49

I'll be there front row, like you stood next to me on stage. What are you chatting about?

SPEAKER_04 1:00:52

Oh, stop.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:53

Being it with me. Okay, I'll be back. And it'll be in Australia and we'll be tanned and happy.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:58

Have you ever tried frozen cokes in Australia from a dog?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:01

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:01

For like a dollar.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:02

Insane. I walked past Pontework every day. I basically got one like for four times a week.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:07

Yeah. Oh my god.

unknown 1:01:09

Sorry.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:10

Um, no, literally obsessed with them. Um so the last question I have for you is a listener question.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:17

And they have written in can you describe I guess we've kind of touched upon this, but maybe not this specific moment. Uh, can you describe the feeling when you're when you first made your West End debut? So which show was that?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:29

Chicago.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:30

That was Chicago. At which theatre?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:32

At the Cambridge.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:33

Oh, yeah, where Matilda is, right? Yeah. Oh, I didn't even know what Chicago was there.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:37

Yeah, so it went from the uh Adelphi on the Strand. I think the Adelphi was the first place it was. I might be wrong. Um, and then it moved to the Cambridge for a few years, and then it went to the Garrick, and then it went off West End for a bit, and then it came back to the Phoenix for a little bit and then went off again. She's been around, girl.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:53

Um what was that feeling like?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:55

It was insane. So Chicago was one of my dream shows from being a child. Like it's Fosse's my favourite style of dance.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:01

Like, I love everything about every single one of his shows.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:04

I just I I like it, just sits where it feels nice in my body. Like, I've I've always danced, I used to literally spend my weekends when I was a child with the Fossey DVD on, learning, like teaching myself every routine. So now when people are like with my content, they're like, How do you learn that? I'm like, I've been doing that my whole life. Yeah. I literally used to be like, I'm gonna learn sing, sing, sing this weekend. My mum would be like, Go out on your bike like an all child, just so weird. Um, but yeah, so I Chicago was a dream. My mum took me when I was about 12 to watch it when it was at the Adelphi. Um, and there's a they had a cast board up in the front front of the house of the theatre, and um, you had all the casts written, and then there was a gap. It was one of those ones where you can like slide the names in. Oh yeah. There was a gap, and then it was the musicians afterwards, and alphabetically I would have fit in that gap.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:47

No, I fear that you were gonna say something right. I wrote my name in that gap.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:51

Honestly, so I had a photo next to it pointing like mum, my my name's gonna be there one day. I'm gonna be in that one day.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:57

Oh my god!

SPEAKER_00 1:02:58

Um, and then yeah, it was my West End debut. So there's a picture, obviously it had gone to the Cambridge by then, but my mum then took a photo of me pointing at my name on the castboard at the front of the Cambridge, literally like sobbing, like holy crap, I've made it. I think I'm still one of the youngest guys to have ever gone in. I went in when I was 20 and turned 21 on the job. So I played Fred Casey like the day before I turned 21 or something. So I think I'm still one of the youngest people to have ever done it, which is wild that they hired me because I look back at photos now and I'm like, I was a child. I was so skinny. I'm like, I'd love to do it now, like feeling like a man, like the experience that I've got because that's how that show works best, I think.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:34

But um was it everything you wished for? It was incredible. I know I know some people when they make their West End debuts, it isn't it isn't the moment that they wish for it, it's maybe a bit more stressful. So that's nice to then.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:45

It was absolutely everything I wanted. I went, I swung on Flashdance tour and then I swung on Chicago in town. And um, flash dance I barely went on stage. Like, because obviously when you're on tour, you all have the same holidays together. It was a very different time back then, like people pushed through way more than they should have done. Yeah, um, so I think in a year I did like 63 shows. I can't believe that's still in my memory. I think it did be like 63 in 12 months. I was like, oh my god, like fresh out of college, like dying to be on stage. Yeah, yeah, of course. And then um, and then Chicago, because of holidays and stuff. I think I did like 95% of the year. So I was on the whole time. I got to play every male role in the show and some female ones.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:20

Literally living the dream.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:21

It was just yeah, it was everything I wanted it to be. It was incredible. Wow. I've got the best memories.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:25

And how cool that you've like lived your dream. Yeah, you've done it.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:28

I always remember like coming down for my first bat, and especially because in that, like they introduce everyone, like sorry, I burped again. Um, they introduce everyone in the finale like by names. They're like, ladies and gentlemen, they turn around and the MD's like, ladies and gentlemen, your company, and he introduces everyone's name. So, like I love that my first show on hearing Jason Winter shouted in My Dream Show, running across to my bow, looking out. My mum stood up, like bawling her eyes out, and literally just like it was that that for me is the moment, the first and main moment that I ever went. I've made it. Like I've done what younger me wanted to do. And that's my throw. Do you know what I mean? Like, even things now I think are dreams that, as we said, things haven't been written yet, like shows that I don't even know exist that I want to do, but like that one I always knew I wanted to do it, and to have done it that early in my career and as my West End debut, like it just everything slotted it for it to be the perfect job. Yeah, I really was like the casts were incredible. I'm still in contact with so many of that cast. And that was 2009 to 2010.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:24

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:25

Like we're still, even if we're not like close, like if I start speaking to someone, like it's so or like if you saw them in the street, it would just be like oh my gosh, like babe. And the fact that so many of that cast are still outperforming as well. Like we were such a strong, yeah, strong cast, like it was an incredible cast. So um, yeah, very lucky. Very lucky.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:44

Well, thank you so much for coming onto the podcast. You've been an absolute dream. I honestly Life in the Wings. Life in the Wings, guys. I love it. I genuinely feel like like we could literally just talk for hours. Like, there's even that question. I know, should I call off the show tonight? Should we just go to a beer garden?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:59

I'm sick.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:00

But yeah, thank you so much for coming on and giving me your time. Bank holiday Monday as well. Easter eggs. If you like the podcast, keep watching. Please like, subscribe, and comment. And I will see you next week. Goodbye.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:12

Goodbye.