[EP5] What are you Pretending not to Know?

In this episode of Root Issue Radio, Jill Young and Sue Hawkes unpack the powerful question: what are you pretending not to know? They explore why this question gets to the root of what’s really happening in teams, how ego and habit can keep people from naming the truth, and why safety matters when hard things need to be said.

Jill and Sue discuss how unspoken cues, silence, and “the meeting after the meeting” often reveal more than what is said out loud. They explain how leaders can create space for honest conversation, move issues into the open, and help teams build the trust needed for stronger results.

The conversation also covers the difference between withholding and protecting, why confidentiality has to go both ways, and how permission-based coaching can help people speak into what they already know. Jill and Sue close by noting that not every issue is friction; some are hunches, ideas, and opportunities that deserve a place on the issues list too.

Listener Takeaway: 

Sometimes the thing blocking progress is not what’s being said, but what everyone is pretending not to know. Notice the unspoken, get curious about the root issue, and create enough safety for honest conversation to happen.

Get your copy of the Issues Book here!

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Coming to you live, it's Root Issue Radio with your hosts, expert EOS implementers, and co-authors of the Issues book, Jill Young and Sue Hawks.

SPEAKER_01 0:11

We're on a mission to help you remove friction, fast-track growth, and ignite your greatness. Dial in and let's dig deep.

SPEAKER_00 0:29

No, you do. No, you do. No, you make it fun. We do. Well, welcome back to another episode of Root Issue Radio. In the last episode, we talked about disciplined thought and we unpacked creating space, not just finding the time, but creating space. And we also talked a little bit about how powerful a question is. And as soon as I was was, as soon as I was writing the book, there's a little bit of it. There we go.

SPEAKER_01 1:03

That's why Wheeze wrote it.

SPEAKER_00 1:05

That's why Wheeze wrote it. Is we was writing the book. Sue has this beautiful question that I'm I can't. I like I wake up in the night and think about it because it's so good, Sue. Um, and I'm gonna let you say the question. So it comes from your voice and your radio voice. What is that dead question, Sue?

SPEAKER_01 1:28

I'm gonna try my radio voice. Um radio. Um, the question actually comes from a training I did probably, oh my gosh, 30 plus years ago. And it's what are you pretending not to know? And in the same way you just described it, the reason I still remember it is because it wakes me up some days, right? It's a good wake-up question.

SPEAKER_00 1:56

Yeah, it's a good wake-up question. And I think the reason it works so well when I've asked myself that, thank you, Sue, is that our brains are these beautiful, efficient organs. And our egos protect us. Uh, our ego, sometimes people are like, don't have ego. Check your ego at the door. Your ego is just your protector, it's protecting you from things. And it and it's really great. We don't need to demonize it so much. And it's also keeping us from the root issue. There's uh so there's that. Our brains.

SPEAKER_01 2:37

Where were you gonna go when you went, mmm? It sounded like you.

SPEAKER_00 2:41

I think I was gonna say the same thing over again.

SPEAKER_01 2:43

Oh, okay. Yeah, it sounded like it might have been a good.

SPEAKER_00 2:47

Oh, if it was good, it would have come out. Okay, okay. Thank you, Sue. Listen, you guys, let's just take a little time out to just just acknowledge what Sue just did. She's such a great coach. She sensed something that I'm like, hmm. She sensed me not saying what I was pretending not to know. Am I doing using too many negatives, double negatives? No. And she just said, hey, what is it? What is it right there? Maybe what what were you pretending not to know, Jill?

SPEAKER_01 3:17

Well, and how cool that you could point out for our listeners, because that is exactly how it works in a session room, too, is the unspoken, the unsaid, the body language, the look, the sound effect, the hmm, the person backing away and crossing their arms, the tapping of a pen, the clicking of things, those are all saying something. They aren't always saying something meaningful, but if you don't ask, you can't again create space for people to step into it and go, oh, yeah, stuff is going on because we're so good in the way you just talked about at covering it up if it's not going to protect us, right? So in that protector mode, yes, our egos do that, but I I want to go on that demonizing thing for just a slight sidebar, which I think is relevant. An ego channeled into a purpose is what gets to the purpose, like it's what makes that happen. So I don't want anyone to walk out of here thinking you have to get rid of it or quiet it. What you do is channel it, right? And that's what we're talking about. So it's the invitation again to create enough safety. And this is where we come back to the the bumpers in the room where it starts to be that's the place we go to get uncomfortable, to really be safe enough to say hard things, to say things that maybe I wouldn't normally and I do so because not nothing bad is gonna happen. Right. So if that little hmm, it's just I'm curious what was in there. Is it worth me knowing about it? And the simple admission of, yeah, I think I was gonna repeat myself could be dismissive. Or if Jill and I might have some stuff, you know, between us within our team, I might push a little more and I might say, Are you sure? Because it sounded like a a more significant pause right at a place where I don't think we're going. Because when you ask teams, and I those listening, I'm just gonna ask you when you hear that question, what are you pretending not to know? Stuff came in your brain. I promise it came to the surface. And I know for me, it's like, oh, it's that. Or when you ask people, they go, ooh. And when that ooh happens, it's like, can you speak into whatever it is that just rose to the top? Because that's that's the depth of your knowing escaping.

SPEAKER_00 6:03

It's the depth of your knowing escaping. Ooh, Sue, that's a sound bite. Okay. Jeez, Louise. Uh, there's another reason I think this question is so powerful, and it's probably questions in general, but this one just gets to the root so well. And it's because the human brain cannot ignore a question. So just you asking the question, something comes up in the brain. And if you are looking for an easy, maybe simple, maybe pay um emotionally difficult, but easy way to get to the root, it's a really beautiful question. I love to follow that question with space. Let's take two quiet minutes and ask ourselves the question: what are we pretending not to know? I also love that it gives um, it gives some grace. There's a little, there's a tiny bit of humor, a tiny bit of um um maybe innocence in that question, because we use the word pretend. It's not what what is it that you don't know that you wish you knew? Well, gosh, that seems to me like really intellectual, and I have to really think about that. Uh, but when you say, what is it that you're pretending? Like, I'm just pretending not to know. It gives the element of that you do know. You do know. Somehow we're just pretending not to know. Pretend for me as a childhood, like, let's, let's make believe, let's pretend. And it just adds a just a tiny bit of sparkle to that question where it's like, oh no, Jill, you weren't withholding on purpose from us, accusing me or withholding on purpose. It's just like, what are we pretending not to know? There's there's a lot of unspoken rules in teams. Um, elephants in the room. We're pretending not to know that this guy hates his job. Uh, we're pretending not to know that there's the family is fighting right now, but I'm not a family member. I'm on the leadership team, but I'm just gonna ignore that because what are we pretending not or pretending not to know?

SPEAKER_01 8:36

Well, and it's not to know. It's that that's why you were going, am I saying too many negatives, right? It's it's saying you know this, and right now you've had some practice in not speaking into it for whatever reason. And that comes back to the safety to me. You know, the pretense is not because we're malicious, the pretense is because we have practice, and that practice has kept us a little bit like wrapped in bubble wrap, right? So that if somebody pops a few of those, it's kind of fun, but it's not truthfully um safe enough that I would unwrap the bubbles.

SPEAKER_00 9:22

Yeah, and to create some breaks. It's it's again these unspoken rules between teams that we speak about these things and we don't speak about these things. Uh so you and I um uh about a week ago had a really deep discussion around healthy teams, unhealthy teams. And it was really fun to unpack the team that has high um high positivity. I think we called it high trust, but low conflict. And on the surface, if if you are listening to this root issue radio and you're like, whoa, I think there's a lot of things I pretend not to know. Uh, and you also think, but I love my team. We're such good friends. We have such good, we have fun together. We come into the meetings and we're laughing. And but sometimes we still look at our results and we're not hitting our results, and we're like, oh, well, we tried hard. Um, it might feel good on the surface to pretend not to know, but we're not getting the results. We're not getting the results that we want. We're not communicating as effectively as we could. And I think we're missing out on something to go past, like go into the conflict, and then you get past the conflict, and it's even a deeper friendship. But we're afraid of that. We're pretending not to know.

SPEAKER_01 10:50

Well, and I think you're talking about a layer most of us can relate to. I'm in the Midwest. I don't know about in Dallas, but in the Midwest, it's very uh geographically okay to say nice things to your face and have a different story when we run to the bathroom together, which just happened with the team I was with. And I caught two team members just having the the meeting after the meeting, which is another layer of this. We were in the middle of our annual, and two team members were having a conversation as I walked in. And guess what happened when I walked in? Just to go to the bathroom and wash my hands. How about they change the subject? How did you know? That is a level of pretense where it's like, oh, it's safe with you, but not with her, which I happen to embrace that because I go, awesome, I am doing my job. That is good feedback, but I can't let that moment pass. So while we're all still in the restroom and at the sink, I have to ask what we call the question, right? Are you gonna tell them or am I gonna tell them? Because someone's got to tell them because I know what you're saying. And what I did when we were having the conversation was just give permission. I said, these are valid, really strong observations you're having, but having it with each other isn't gonna open any doors. Would you be willing to bring that back to the room so that we can open the door for us all to be part of that conversation? Because I think someone who needs to hear this might be in there. And I didn't make them wrong or say, What do you mean? I just went, Hey, what were you gonna say? And they told me because it's safe. And I said, I think that needs to be shared. And as soon as given permission, which tells me they knew, right? But they can go and drop the pretense with a safe person, but they don't feel safe with all the people. When they came back, game changer. It was the only conversation, which by the way, for those who do annuals, we were past team health. This was in IDSing. So team health isn't done always during team health. That's what IDS is your weekly and quarterly and daily and every hourly opportunity to build trust. So we went back and we actually unlocked the most important conversation on team health of the day was at the end of day two. And that happens. That's human.

SPEAKER_00 13:38

So you mentioned this, you know, pretending not to know. We really do know. And then this step you gave us of having permission. Um, maybe this um, this coach, clearly, that you're you're a coach, you're an implementer, of just saying, hey, I think that's valid. Um, would you be willing to? That permission-based coaching, uh, you have you have flipped permission-based coaching for me. Sometimes permission-based coaching is the coach saying, Do I have permission to go into this? But you just flipped it for me. Of the coach is often lifting a team up and saying, Yes, you're on the right track. Let's go there. This is valid. I see you. I hear you. And you did it in such a such a safe way that, team, if you're listening to this, go back and listen to how Sue did that. I'm like writing things down as she's doing that.

SPEAKER_01 14:36

But what you did beautifully is turn it into a lesson. So thank you.

SPEAKER_00 14:42

Uh, I also don't don't want to miss the piece. Like, let's let's not go past this piece of being confidential. Um, you know, pretend what are you pretending not to know? Uh my goodness, how much water cooler talk. And even in our own organization, people call me and will say, Hey, I know this thing, but don't tell anybody. I'm like, stop, stop, stop, let's not do that. And, you know, in the big wide world, what I grew up with is you never break a confidence. So if someone tells you something and they say, and you can't tell anybody, boom, I'm I'm somehow held to secrecy. What I learned later is that confidential has to go two ways. I have to agree to that. And this powerful question that we use as EOS implementers and any leader, please use this, is when someone comes to you and they've been pretending not to know something, and then they say, I see this now, but don't say anything. I heard this now, but don't say anything. I have this hunch, but don't say anything. They're just wanting to put a shell around them and the issue. And we we write about this in the book of the iceberg of ignorance. The issues, the ideas are coming from everywhere, and we want to release those issues to come from everywhere. But this question that when someone comes to you and says, Hey, but you can't tell anybody, you just in a loving way say, Oh, this needs to get on an issues list. Are you gonna put it on the issues list or do you need my help to put it on the issues list? Because sometimes people do need some help. Sometimes they don't have that courage yet. And I, and and I've had to do it a handful of times, like, okay, here we go. We're gonna go together and let's show everybody the power of the issues list. Getting this idea processed as an issue, identify, discuss, and solve because it's not gonna do anything just ruminating in your head or gossiping in the bathroom. Yeah, or wherever you do. Somehow. I'm glad it came up somehow. But we can be the leaders that usher that issue into open field to where we can really IDS it.

SPEAKER_01 17:10

And I think what you just said is so beautifully stated, Jill, because it comes from that optimistic place, right? You don't go, oh no, you're telling me and I can't tell it. That maybe was the historical version. It's the we have to talk about this because this is an unlock of something for everyone. Yeah. Releasing that shell or that bubble wrap is the gateway. That's the door. And so if you can start to turn that into excitement or at least optimism at the very least, right? That there's something good in here, I think it gives you courage.

SPEAKER_00 17:46

There's a there's a fun little trick that I use sometimes, Sue, to turn, to turn that frown upside down. Uh, because I'm an eternal optimist, is when someone does come to me with something heavy, and I'm this is why I'm not a good therapist, because I can't sit. This is why I'm not a good therapist. If they come with something heavy, like, oh my gosh, I just had the worst day ever, I will sometimes on purpose go, awesome. We're in the learning phase. Awesome. Now we know what the issue is. Awesome, what did we learn? Awesome. What are we pull pulling out of here that we can teach someone else? And I I just feel that might be might be one way. You know, there's lots of different ways to find the root issue, is when something is feels heavy. Oh, awesome, let's get that on the issues list.

SPEAKER_01 18:34

I I love that. I am your twin. My friend John came to me years ago before I ever did EOS, and he said, I have to call. I lost my job. And I'm like, fantastic. And he was he was so angry with me.

SPEAKER_02 18:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:51

Yeah. And I I want our listeners to hear in that it is okay for the general public to know that when you do react the way Jill said, as her eternally optimistic self or me, it can sound, I'll say, tone-deaf or insensitive. And in the moment is what I want to add to that, because you're waiting for what I would call the goody, right? The goody is empathy and sympathy and ruminate with me, even for a minute, Jill, because this is the worst day ever. Come on, jump in with me and tell me how bad it is. And you did not do that, darn it. And so you need to be prepared because I'm betting people don't meet you with joy initially, Jill. You train them into that.

SPEAKER_00 19:41

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 19:42

And so when you're listening, please don't hear that as a harsh thing. I want you to hear the brilliance in what Jill is saying, which is intersecting wakes people up. And the initial wake up is sort of like the sun, the sunshine if you don't have blackout shades when you're sleeping and you go, whoa, it's morning, instead of, oh, it's morning. I am naturally waking up because the light is happening. That is an overtime appreciation because I think that's something people can hear and go, Jill, you're not insensitive. You're one of the kindest, most thoughtful people I've ever met. And that, but it's it's an incredibly great wake-up call. Incredibly great. So I just want you to hear on there if you react at all. Good. You should initially. Over time, you'd then be like, I want to be like Jill.

SPEAKER_00 20:39

There we go. That's that's why my clients say I'm not I'm not a half-assed coach. I'm the whole ass sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 20:46

Well, there you go. Sometimes I would have never been articulated that way, and I might be happy. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 20:55

Oh, Sue, thanks for unpacking that. Uh, what are we pretending not to know? There's so much curiosity that's brought into it, but also some safety and um definitely wisdom and definitely a deep, quick dive into what's really going on.

SPEAKER_01 21:14

You know what we didn't talk about that might be useful in a future session is hunches, ideas, and opportunities, because we've really been on the friction side, not the other kind of friction, which is positive momentum, the idea, opportunity, possibility stuff. Because a lot of times people don't put that in their issues. Hunches are in there.

SPEAKER_00 21:38

I think that's uh maybe what our next episode should be about, Sue.

SPEAKER_01 21:42

Let's find out on issues radio. Thanks for dialing in with us today to download the tools and order your own copy of Issues. Go wherever you get books or visit eosworldwide.com.