[EP7] EOS Deeper than the Toolbox

In this episode of Root Issue Radio, Jill Young and Sue Hawkes explore the idea that EOS is more than a toolbox — it is a system designed to build leaders. They discuss how self-implementers often become strong at using individual tools, but the real power comes from understanding how those tools work together across the full system.

The conversation digs into the danger of turning EOS into a prescription instead of an adaptable algorithm. Jill and Sue talk about how teams can get robotic, default to the same approach, or rely too quickly on the first answer instead of fully engaging the team in discussion.

They close by emphasizing that if a team feels stuck, slow down, pause, and bring the whole team into the conversation. The goal is not just to solve one issue faster — it is to build stronger leaders who can think more broadly, participate more fully, and help the organization grow.

Listener Takeaway:
EOS works best when it is used as a system, not a checklist. When teams stop relying on the same default approach and start using the tools together, they build stronger leaders and solve issues more effectively

Get your copy of the Issues Book here!

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Coming to you live, it's Root Issue Radio with your hosts, expert EOS implementers, and co-authors of the Issues book, Jill Young and Sue Hawks.

SPEAKER_00 0:11

We're on a mission to help you remove friction, fast-track growth, and ignite your greatness. Dial in and let's dig deep.

SPEAKER_01 0:34

And now it's getting old. Now I'm gonna have to now I'm gonna get I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna write a new song for the end of this. That's funny. So we ended the last episode, and really the theme of that one was IDS everywhere. And you said something in there that's just still sticking with me from last episode. And you said, this is really just a system to build leaders. And then you shared some percentages with me. Do you want to start us off right there on what we're really gonna talk about in this episode?

SPEAKER_00 1:10

Well, and we just want to be clear math is not my number one skill set. When I give you these numbers, they are numbers that I fully believe in. But I really believe our job as implementers is to teach the system, right? And it's a system, not a toolbox. I think when people self-implement, they're good at the toolbox, like the individual tools, and they get pretty dang good at them. But they don't always use the interconnectedness of them. So I like to tell teams right at the beginning, hey, about 30% of my job is teaching you the tools and EOS, but about 70% of my job is to teach you how to become the leader you always intended to be, the one you want to be, the one you want to show up in the room as. And all of our resources, whether great boss or rocket fuel or um EOS, start with this question about what does it mean to be great? Right? We use this word great. And even with the issues book, we talk about removing friction, fast tracking your growth, and igniting your greatness. And I think that is the much more noble or higher aspiration of what this simple but profound system uh enables. Hmm.

SPEAKER_01 2:35

It's um it's so much bigger than just running a business. This this leadership, what does it mean to be great? Just that just that question. What does it mean to be great? We can take in so many uh parts of our lives. And there is a a sometimes I will say EOS is has layers. So how do we teach the tools, Sue? We show the people the entire system, we show the leaders the entire system, but then we teach them the tools one at a time, because that's how humans learn. And if we never go deeper and help humans see how the tools work together in a system, then I can totally see, like if the teacher doesn't teach it that way, then human beings see it as here's a tool, here's a tool, here's a tool, and they're not interconnected. IDS is at the center of so many of our tools, and it is this interconnected uh fascia. Did I say that right? Fascia of what helps a company move and breathe and build muscles. Each one of our humans in the company are building and breathing and growing this muscle, and um eventually we become great.

SPEAKER_00 4:07

I love that you said that because something beyond the decoder decks is the issues gym, and and we're using the exact same language. And I'm hoping you'll be at some of the gyms in the future because it is about the fascia and the muscle. I'm just I'm a little simpler, so I'm saying muscles because I can get there. And scars. Yes, and scars and scar tissue and diagnosing, treating, and curing those issues. But thinking about, you know, really the building of the muscle and that the way the system interplays, I don't know about you, and I want you to speak into this as well with self-implementers. They come in and they've often developed really, I would say, sound ways of using the tools very much in isolation. So they've read the books, they've studied the books, they've done really good work with the books, which it's all given away, right? Very generous, but they don't always IDS, realizing that they might default to a way, and this is where you interjected this, they solve issues from a singular viewpoint. Because we are often prone in the system to say, hey, we have a tool for that. What tool, what component are we talking about? Which is a great way to see it. It's a great way to approach it. However, the ad would be when we've mastered that, we might be leaving some stuff on the table because the interplay of the components means many tools may be at play in the solve. Right. So is it data and process? Is it data process in the accountability chart? Because it really comes back to the scorecard. Where do we begin instead of a default setting of that's comfortable, we know how to do that, that's how we approach things.

SPEAKER_01 6:03

The the word that you used maybe about a minute ago that had a lot of energy for me, which is sometimes this is how I listen these days. I listen for words that have energy, is the word approach. How do we approach this? And some leaders approach the issue or an issue with this from the same approach. So up the sidewalk, you know, if you're approaching a house or they approach from the back fence or over the fence, or you know, they drop in with a parachute. And if you we think about how do we approach issues, just opening this up for all of our listeners here, do you have a favorite way to approach an issue? So uh, Sue, you and I have even said, hey, because we've noticed most of your issues are either a people issue or a process issue. Like, oh, look there first. So what do we do? If it's a people issue, we'll open the people analyzer. That's a tool. And we do this, and it's like yes or no, and that's simple. And so fire that guy. Now, so it's so easy. So easy, just fire that guy. And we do see teams who will just approach the issue the same way every time, which is why the discuss and identify discuss as a team, we, because it we're a team of five people, if you say, we have a different perspective, a different approach. And that's where we want to just slow things down and open it up. Could it be a process issue? Sure. Could it be a people issue? What else could it be? And we just uh I like to encourage teams to yes, follow the process. Um, yes, use the tools, but just go back to this simple algorithm of identify, discuss, and solve. It might not always be this tool or that tool. The the tools point to the issue, but the tools do not give you the answer. Uh sometimes we've said the answer is in the tools, but it's because it points to the answer, it reveals data for you. It is not the end of the discussion.

SPEAKER_00 8:28

And in that way, something you said that's really powerful is it's a structure, but there's no formula. So please hear when Jill says it's an algorithm, there is a flow of IDS. But rarely do you IDS exactly the same way. When it starts to feel predictive, you're probably leaning too heavily on some tools, or you're probably falling into a routine where now again you have some unpacking to do because we have made it a prescription rather than it's an algorithm. Some issues you will, as Alex Frytag says, you know, an issue well identified as half solved, you'll come in and you can the discussion is one minute. It's just every voice weighed in. All voices weigh in, which I hope you're doing, even exchange of dialogue, so that even if it's a I'll pass, you heard my voice. Don't do the thing, by the way, that I encourage teams not to. Too many teams assume agreement if people are silent. Silence is not agreement. You must have an audible or a thumbs up or a something that says, I am acknowledging I've weighed in. Without a weigh in, you are bypassing input that may be definitive. And then solve comes quickly. So you can have issues that take one minute, three minutes, and on average, they can move like that. They don't have to be this deep thing that we are we have been unpacking. So please don't let it become a formula, whether short or deep. It also doesn't make mean make these things last and unpack them if they can be fast. If they can't, unpack away friends. The journey is part of the mastery. And please know you're normal. If one minute you are IDSing like a beast and you are winning the day, and you are like, oh, we have got this. And then shortly thereafter, you have lost your way, and you go, We have not got this. This is nothing, and we are swirling. Swirling simply tells you for me, we didn't identify well. Let's go back to SNP.

SPEAKER_01 10:54

Yep. It's um you said it's a formula, it's not a prescription. Is that what you said?

SPEAKER_00 11:00

Something like that, or an algorithm. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:04

I like algorithms. I like to be nerdy. Makes me feel smart to use big words.

SPEAKER_00 11:10

Well, just using them then. I'm just gonna stay over here on the simple words.

SPEAKER_01 11:16

And I like to tell my own story, so I have a handful of big words that I really like to. I also think algorithm sounds good when I it feels good in my mouth. Algorithm.

SPEAKER_00 11:28

I think it's a mathy word, so you sound smart.

SPEAKER_01 11:31

And now we can talk about tangents.

unknown 11:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 11:35

I have them.

SPEAKER_00 11:36

I just got us up on a tangent. That's all right. Sometimes you have to have these, they're fun journeys. It doesn't mean kill them all.

SPEAKER_01 11:43

That's right. One of my coaches says the detour is the journey, Jill. The detour is the journey. I know it's here we go. Here we go. So we're talking about the tools, and I have this this phrase that's coming to me is actually don't get lost in the tools. Don't get lost in the tools. Um, Sue, are there anything coming to mind where if you see teams getting lost in tools or a a method or um the prescription, they're doing it the same way every time. Is there anything that really helps with that if a team sees themselves getting lost in that?

SPEAKER_00 12:24

For me, when I observe a team and they what I what I would say is when I'm observing, they seem robotic in some way, shape, or form. If I oversimplified it, it's like we've got a routine, we do the routine. It's like you don't have to wake up in the morning and think about what to do. You wake up, you brush your teeth, you take your shower, you do your meditation, whatever your structure is, you just default into it. And whether you've had a lot of sleep, a little sleep, whether you're happy or sad, whether it's been a long night or a short night, you know what to do. And that's where you can go to that automatic or that automaticity, that robotic brain. And we were talking about that in an earlier episode where that's very awesome. But I will ask a team when I see that, I'll go, hang on, just can we pause for a minute? And that great acronym that Jill has. I'm now gonna try saying perhaps another unspoken solution exists. But when I say pause for a minute, what I like to say is, can you just talk? And I I literally take the rules out of it. I don't focus on the system at that point because now we're trying to be good students, it seems, or be performative in some way, like we're being observed and she's watching, or uh, I don't want to offend Jill or we've been down this road 10 times. And instead of somebody just losing their mind for a minute, which might be the most helpful thing, like the visionary flipping the table and going, Jesus, can we just get to the answer? You know, and that's like I always go like, Oh, that was refreshing. Okay, outburst. I'm not afraid of those, or when the integrator will be like, I think we've heard everyone. Anything new we haven't heard. So anybody can do this when you're in your L10, but it's the courage, and you you're hearing us say that word a lot in all of these. And core, the core, the root word is with heart. And sometimes you feel it's funky, and it's the same as a clear the air. You just have to go, hang on, can somebody just talk? Or you just say, hey, wait a second, this isn't working. What do you really want to say? It's creating that momentary pause to sit back and as we've talked about, reflect in the moment, or just speak from your heart without editing, without trying to sound smart, without worrying about the eggshells in the room. Just go there. Go there and say it messy and know that we love you in your messiness. And you might hurt a feeling or two, but at least it's out there. And now, now we can all participate because in our um Johari's window, you know, it's in the open. We need it in the open. It's a little blind, it's a little hidden, it's a little unknown. Just get it to the opening so we can all, you know, participate with it.

SPEAKER_01 15:28

And I find teams that will get just get over that speed bump, just get through the threshold of courage, just get through that uh break. Sometimes they have to break through and it feels spicy. I know you and I like that word. It feels spicy. You know, and I I say to teams, you guys, if it gets too spicy, we can apologize. But we cannot get break through that, get over the threshold, the speed bump, if somebody doesn't take us there. So I also find like when it gets robotic, it's not real. Uh, a couple of things that I will say to teams when they get too robotic, I'll say, Hey, for let's just let's forget this for now. Let's shake it all out. We move our bodies a little bit. And I give them the challenge to let's just stay on one topic. That's all. Now just talk about it. Let's make sure we're hearing from everybody. And this is, you know, sometimes in the beginning when I'm trying to get them to feel IDS, feel IDS. And I love what you said. It just fades into it fades into the background. It just becomes something that we do, just something that we are, not a formula or a checklist that we have to move through. And the the teams that can get there, oh man, they do solve issues with a little more speed. Um, yes. I know my teams, uh, especially in the beginning, they'll go, you know, well, we're only getting through three issues or only one issue. How do we speed this up? So in our next episode, how about we talk a little bit about the speed and maybe even add a little the speed of trust? Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. Um, insights for our listeners.

SPEAKER_00 17:17

Can I put a little fine point on something you said?

SPEAKER_01 17:20

I'd love it.

SPEAKER_00 17:21

Please we don't always like fine points, but when you were talking about, you know, moving your body, I just want to cite for our listeners so you hear this. If when IDSing authentically in the muck of it on a tougher, chewier IDS, when it's taking a while, and sometimes they need to. So I just want to say that you are normal if it feels like you're stuck, which we call a mini hitting of the ceiling. The single greatest thing you can do if you're self-implementing or anyone is aware of it beyond us, the implementer, is take a break. Yeah, you don't have someone like Jill around to go move your bodies, let's stay on one thing. You know, if one of us isn't in the room with you, it is normal, but you just need to put a timeout symbol up. I always use my hands in a timeout, like in sports, and I'll say, let's take a walk. Five minutes, go for your devices, you know, out of the room for a bit, but move your bodies is really key. And take five quiet minutes doing anything else, anything else. And I kid you not, we see this all the time. I know Jill will say this. I know Gino taught me this. Is somebody comes back and they have an insight, an aha, a highlight, a revolutionary idea, but the it it opens the gateway. So trust the break.

SPEAKER_01 18:51

Trust the break. I don't even know if the break is in the tools, but it is in the system. But um bum with root issue radio. All right. Well, um, let's let we'll talk about pace next time, Sue. Perfect. Yeah, and I'll see you back here next time and speed. I can't wait. I cannot wait. We we can't wait so much. We're gonna speed on over to that episode. Let's go.

SPEAKER_00 19:22

Oh. Thanks for dialing in with us today to download the tools and order your own copy of issues. Go wherever you get books or visit eosworldwide.com.