Episode 2 - Sarah Baird (EI Teacher/Consultant) - We’re Always Teaching

In this episode of The Honoring Educators Podcast, Jon sits down with friend and colleague Sarah Baird, an EI teacher and consultant whose work supporting students, colleagues, and families has had a meaningful impact on the people around her.

Sarah shares the story of how she found her way into EI work and the educators who inspired her along the way. Jon and Sarah also have an honest conversation reflecting on the clip chart discussion that many educators experienced years ago, embracing a conversation about how those tools were used in classrooms and some of the unintended impacts they may have had along the way.

The episode also includes a discussion on verbal and nonverbal de-escalation strategies, exploring ways educators can approach both preventative and reactive situations when supporting students with complex needs.

This episode is a warm conversation between two friends reflecting on the profession they care deeply about and the people who helped shape their journeys.

In this episode we discuss:

• Why Jon wanted to interview Sarah

• The educators who inspired Sarah

• Supporting colleagues and community in education

• The clip chart discussion and lessons learned

• Verbal and nonverbal de-escalation strategies for preventative and reactive situations

• One word that defines the ideal educator

• Why someone should consider working in EI teaching, consulting, or paraprofessional roles

About the Podcast

The Honoring Educators Podcast celebrates the educators, support staff, and leaders who shape lives and communities through their work in schools. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:01

All right, everybody, and welcome back to the Honoring Educators Podcast. I am your host, John LaFever, and I am super thrilled to be sitting here today. I'm going to try to paint a picture for you before I even get into who I'm sitting down with. I am recording this from a she shed. You heard that right. I am in a she shed right now. It's a small little shed, kind of designed for arts and crafts. Um, on the Honoring Educators podcast, I will come to you if need be. And I need my guest in the uh most comfortable environment ever, and I couldn't imagine a better one here. So uh without further ado, my guest today is the one and the only talented Sarah Baird. Sarah, thank you for being here with us.

SPEAKER_01 0:42

John, I'm honored to be here with you.

SPEAKER_02 0:44

I'm sure you are honored. Um, I'm sure you're also feeling other things. So let's do a quick check-in. I'm gonna do this in all of my episodes. Where are we at emotionally right now?

SPEAKER_01 0:54

Oh, we're yellow.

SPEAKER_02 0:55

We're yellow. So we're talking zones of regulation.

SPEAKER_01 0:58

Yeah, feeling a little anxiety. You know that uh this is a little out of my comfort zone with attention on me. And not exactly my favorite place, but I am absolutely thrilled that you are you're jumping in with this podcast, and I'm so honored that you are asking me to be a part of it.

SPEAKER_02 1:16

Well, I appreciate that, and I appreciate you playing along. And you're gonna say the same kind of things that I think my mom said and other people said, and I'll even say it, you know, I'm always in the, I mean, I literally live in the yellow zone, but especially when I'm doing these things, um, I'm I'm also in the yellow zone. So let's just embrace the yellow zone together. Um, one thing I said to Sarah before we even got started today is she and I have had 10,000 conversations similar to this. This one just happens to be recorded in a she shed with a microphone in between us. So that's the only difference. So we're just gonna go off and have a wonderful little conversation here. Um, and unlike my mom's episode, where I kind of had to get through a lot of the questions first, and then at the end, I had to kind of say, Hey, by the way, I'm gonna kind of shower you with a little praise and recognition. I'm now gonna switch this for most of my episodes. I'm gonna do a little bit of that up front because I need the listeners at home to understand a little bit about who I'm sitting with. And when I say who I'm sitting with, I'm not talking about credentials. I'm not, I'm not gonna talk about where Sarah went to school and um, you know, her you know, career path and things like that. But I'm just gonna talk about Sarah as a person. So, Sarah, just brace for a little bit of healthy discomfort as we talked about in the Genesis episode. Um, this will just take a few minutes and then we'll get into the rest of the storytelling where you can kind of shine the light on other people after I get done shining the light on you. Sound fair?

SPEAKER_00 2:36

Sounds fair.

SPEAKER_02 2:37

All right, so I am sitting here with Sarah Baird. Um, Sarah and I have a little bit of a unique history in that we went to the same high school together. She was a few years older than me. So we didn't spend a lot of time getting to know each other in high school. But it was nice when I first started at Saginaw ISD to have somebody that I kind of knew. Um, shout out to Chris Conley. I put him in that same category of like just people that you can kind of gravitate towards when you don't know anybody else and you're in this big organization. And that was kind of the first moment where you're like, okay, this is a person that um is kind and resourceful and that you can go to for some support. And here we are 15 years later, and I'm going, I still say the same exact things. Why am I interviewing Sarah? And why am I interviewing her essentially numero uno? I um I wanted to interview my mom. I didn't know if she would come on, and she did. So thank you, mom, again, if you're listening at home. But I told Sarah a couple weeks ago when I saw her at work, I said, I'm actually gonna do this. I'm gonna start pushing record and I'm gonna interview people, and I would really like you to be my first person I interview. And we had a nice little moment where we kind of chatted about why and things like that. Um, so I'm just gonna kind of talk about some of those things. So as I'm sitting here with this um amazing colleague of mine and a friend, um, Sarah Baird is the prototypical teammate. She is the person that you want on your team. And I don't care what you're going into a meeting for, what you're planning, what you're organizing. Sarah is the type of person that you want on your team for a host of reasons. Um, she's intelligent, she's articulate, she's resourceful, she's all of the things that make up an excellent teammate. Um, and I know many of my colleagues that are listening at home are gonna be shaking their head going, yep, you want her around the table if you're talking about something complex, something challenging, um, maybe you're planning something exciting for the future. Uh, she she's gonna bring it in spades for all of those things. Um, she is an extremely fierce advocate for kids. Um, I'm sitting across uh a little wicker table from somebody that um is going to pour her heart and soul into the work that she does and to support kids and to support the teams that are supporting kids. Um, and she she can be a very fierce advocate for them and because she knows at the end of the day that students come first. And yes, there's going to be some challenges as adult staff as we kind of work through some of those things, but she is extremely student focused and a very strong advocate for kids. And um, you know, goes along with the first thing that I said is she just she just makes people better, she makes everybody that's sitting around the room um better at what we do. She's extremely organized and she just brings out the best in people. And I don't know how else to say that. Sarah Baird is extremely strong and resilient for a host of reasons that we don't even need to get into right now. Um, but she is one of the most resilient uh colleagues I have ever worked with. And then we're gonna adjust into this next discussion about the idea of being an artist and a scientist. Let's start with scientist. I'm glad you asked. Why is Sarah a scientist? Sarah is a data nerd. Um she's sitting across now, she's laughing. That's good. Um, but she is, she's the data nerd. She likes to collect data on how students are doing, how students are feeling, what times of the day, what rooms, what programs. If there's data to be collected, she'll figure out a way to do it. And the hope is that it's always done in a way that teachers aren't like pulling their hair out going, come on, I gotta collect all this data. It's one of the uh pieces of the job that not everybody loves, but she somehow does it in a way that makes it either fun, engaging, or a little more efficient than some other methods. So I appreciate that. But she's extremely data focused. But on the flip side, she's like an artist. Um, she's intuitive, she knows how to read people, she knows how to kind of take the temperature of a room quickly and recognize when people need a little of this or a little of that, how that student's feeling, how the staff are feeling. Um, she can kind of uh go with the flow in in many ways. So it's like this rare combination of a of a staff member that we don't see all the time that can be extremely um scientific on one hand, but also very artistic on the other. So that's just one way that I'm gonna kind of paint this picture of Sarah as a colleague here. Um Sarah has been doing, and she'll be able to talk about this at some point, I'm sure, when she's talking, um, CPI training for those that are aware of what that is. It's verbal and nonverbal de-escalation strategies, um and things like that, all about how to support students by training staff to handle some of those things. She's been doing that for 10 to 15 years, probably, give or take. Um, so this analogy may not ring true to everybody because some of you may not know who Salt Bay is, but the person that holds up the salt and they kind of sprinkle it on, that's how I view Sarah Baird, is she is somebody that has over time sprinkled her knowledge, her resources, her maybe philosophical approach on how to support students. And if you've lived and worked in a school community in Saginaw County over the last 15 years, especially if you've worked with complex and challenging kiddos, the likelihood is extremely high that Sarah Baird has sprinkled a little bit of that magic on you in some way, whether it's through a training, whether it's through showing up to your building, whether it's from observing in a classroom environment, whether it's kind of pairing up with an adult staff member afterwards and saying, hey, let's think about a way that we can approach that kid a little bit differently and maybe get a different outcome. So it's like she's just over all of these years impacted every nook and cranny of Saginaw County in some way. I don't care what building you're in, what district you're in, what program you're in, there's somebody in that building that's likely um been positively impacted by Sarah. And I think that's a pretty cool thing. Um, the fact that she's been a consultant has allowed her to see and work with um just about every population in Saginaw County and beyond. So I just thought that that was a really great thing. So um I'm I'm winding down this section, Sarah, so you can start to take a deep breath. Thing that I wanted to point out that I don't know if anybody's picked up on yet, is I've really not talked at all about how Sarah has impacted students yet. Really, all I've talked about is how wonderful of a teammate she is, what kind of a colleague she is, um, how she can be a support and a resource to adults. And the beautiful thing about this lady is she she's done all of that and more for students. And there's a side of her career that I don't even know as deeply. And that's part of what I want to explore today about how she really has impacted students. Um, I could talk for hours about how she impacts staff, but we're gonna um we're gonna pause this section of the uh opening here, and we're gonna start transitioning back into some of the questions that are gonna allow us to really understand that the work that she's done that she's found meaningful and things of that nature. So without further ado, I'm gonna I'm gonna pause here, Sarah. We're gonna do another check-in. Are we still yellow?

SPEAKER_01 9:23

We're still in the yellow zone.

SPEAKER_02 9:24

Okay, you might even be more yellow because I signed a bright light on you and your work. So I apologize for that. So, anything else in that regard, Sarah? Would you like to flip the script and just start talking about other people?

SPEAKER_01 9:34

I'm done talking about me. Fantastic.

SPEAKER_02 9:37

That's great.

SPEAKER_01 9:37

Well, thank you, John. Yeah, that that is amazing just hearing that.

SPEAKER_02 9:40

And I do, I meant every word of that. So um, if you haven't picked up on it, I'm sitting down with somebody that that I'm extremely excited to just talk to because there's a lot of wisdom and there's a lot of uh hope, and there's a lot of kind of uh just a positive energy that I hope is gonna shine through in this. So the first question that I really want to talk to Sarah about is essentially, I'm just so thankful that you got into education to begin with, um, because of all those things that I've seen you kind of pour into our community in terms of whether it's staff or students. But let's say we're on an elevator and we got to go up 20 stories. We're not going, you know, 500 stories high. Let's take a couple minutes and let's just talk about how did Sarah Baird get into education, kind of who nudged you, who inspired you, who motivated you? How did you get from the high school student that I knew to here we are, you know, 15, 20 years later, as you know, a consultant, a former teacher, and kind of that journey. How did we get here, Sarah?

SPEAKER_01 10:41

I actually decided that I wanted to be a teacher. Um, growing up, my brother had ADHD and just really seemed like he was always getting in trouble, just could never slow himself down. And just watching him go through that, I thought, you know what, I'm gonna be a teacher so that I can help those kids, the kids who you know struggle and just really have difficulty. I want to be that person that is in their corner to help them through. And it's kind of ironic looking back because that's essentially the definition of special ed, right? It's helping those kids who struggle the most. But growing up, I went to parochial school. We didn't have special ed. So I didn't know what exactly special ed was until I got into college. So I knew I wanted to be a teacher for that reason. Teacher, first teaching class, teaching 101 at Central, fire up chips.

SPEAKER_02 11:35

Fire up chips. I knew that was coming.

SPEAKER_01 11:38

Um, very first class, we had to do 100 hours of observation. And so I had a friend who I knew had a mom who was a teacher, no idea what she taught. So I called her and I was like, hey, I need some hours. Can I come in? No idea what I was walking into. Turns out she had a self-contained classroom for students with emotional impairments.

SPEAKER_02 12:00

That there we go.

SPEAKER_01 12:02

So I walked in and I knew that that was my home.

SPEAKER_02 12:07

I'm gonna let the room breathe for a second. We already got her going. That's the person I'm sitting with, is somebody that just thinking about her first moment walking into that space, and maybe that's why she's such a powerful educator. Is the minute she walked through that door, she said, Ah, this is where I belong. And that that rings so true even to this day. Um, so I'm gonna pause and let you finish. But uh everything I didn't know what she was gonna say right there, but that that that that's a moment we're having her here. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 12:37

So shout out to Sue Walraven.

SPEAKER_02 12:40

I know Sue.

SPEAKER_01 12:41

Yeah, oh Sue's amazing classroom who I observed.

SPEAKER_02 12:44

Oh my I think I knew that in the past. Oh, that's see, this is why I love this podcast is shout out to Sue Wallraven. Tell me more.

SPEAKER_01 12:52

So she is the one who introduced me to the world of EI. So spent some time in her room, couldn't wait to go back and spend some more time. And again, just fell in love with these kids. And that semester, I changed my focus to Teachers of the Emotionally Impaired and went through the rest of my college and graduated with a major in teachers of the emotionally impaired. And I couldn't wait to just start working with these kids and really being able to be that person that had their back and get them through.

SPEAKER_02 13:28

I'm so glad I asked that question. That went down a road I was not expecting. Sue Walraven, if you're out there listening, I'm so sorry we're using your name on a podcast, but that's the nature of the beast here is we're gonna shine a light on the people that helped get us to where we are. And uh I had the pleasure of working with Sue for a number of years in Bridgeport, and I saw everything you just talked about is the kindest, most supportive person ever. So that does not shock me to hear you talk about uh my friend Sue in that regard too. So anything else in terms of just kind of helping you understand your your your way in this path to getting to where you're at?

SPEAKER_01 14:03

Yeah, student teaching. I had actually so when I graduated, I was certified to teach Gen Ed and Special Ed. So I had to do two semesters, one in Gen Ed, one in Special Ed. And so my special ed semester was first, and I got placed at Bullet Creek High School with another amazing teacher, Colleen Landon. So Colleen, she was the definition of what a good relationship looked like. She would walk down the hall and it didn't matter. Jen ed, special ed, she made everybody feel seen. And just watching her and watching that interaction really just emphasized the fact how important relationships are and how they just they can change everything. So that was a huge input on just building that for the rest of my career and really seeing that connection with kids.

SPEAKER_02 14:54

That has absolutely lasted. So shout out to that educator because what you instilled in Sarah is probably the the foremost fabric of who she is as an educator that I know of is uh relationship first always, period. End of story. So we're gonna figure out a way to build a relationship and everything else will go after that. So it sounds like you had that modeled for you at some point in the past. So beautiful. Anything else that we're missing in that regard though?

SPEAKER_00 15:21

Um, so telling was my special ed my general ed special my generalized student teaching.

SPEAKER_01 15:28

Looking back, I feel kind of bad because I had done my special ed first, and then I still had to do a semester of gen ed. And I knew I didn't want to do gen ed, I wanted to be in the special ed world, but I knew I need to get through this. So I kind of went in and I was like, okay, let's get this through. And my placement was in a fifth grade classroom, I'm sure one. And I had probably the best educator.

SPEAKER_02 15:58

Take your time. All of them matter, but I think this one matters a lot.

SPEAKER_01 16:03

So Connie Baird was the perfect definition of what a teacher should be. She taught in Segan Atomship for 34 years. So she had generations of kids. And so when she connected with kids, it wasn't just connecting with them, it was bringing in their siblings and bringing in their parents because a lot of the parents she had as kids too. She had been there so long. And her mission in life, inside of school and outside of school, was always to make sure that kids felt seen, that they felt cared for. She would find anything and everything that she could do to get them interested in learning. Luckily for me, she thought highly enough of me that during my student teaching with her, she introduced me to her son and Connie became my mother-in-law.

SPEAKER_02 16:59

That is beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 17:01

So I was able to see all of the amazing things that she not only did in school, but outside of school. And her her motto was, and probably said it to my husband and father-in-law more often than others when they were messing around was that we are always teaching, and that's how she lived her life. She was always teaching everything that she did. She knew the kids were watching, and the kids were picking up on that, and that's how they were learning. And we lost her about 12 years ago, and there were so many stories at her funeral about the amazing woman, amazing teacher she was, and how many lives she had changed. And I think that that's really the the definition of a great educator is just being able to touch so many lives and have so many past former students come back and just celebrate her was so touching to see.

SPEAKER_02 18:06

Um, that was beautiful. Um, it's funny because I could actually add to that, and I think I may have reached out to you when this happened, but uh a shout out to my friend Amy Stone. Uh I I knew Amy Russo, uh formerly Amy Russo, but now Amy Stone. Um I worked with her at Bridgeport, and she's a phenomenal educator. She's the type of person I'd like to have on the show at some point anyway. So, Amy, if you're out there listening. But I don't know, six months ago, Amy, you reach out to me, and she must have seen something on Facebook that Sarah and I were working on together. And she goes, Oh, is it the sweatshirts? Okay, and we'll be talking about those at some point too. But uh Amy took a second to reach out to me. She goes, Hey, your friend Sarah Baird, ask her if she's uh related to this person in any way. And I didn't have any clue, so I reached out to Sarah and I said, Hey, do you know this person with the last name? Baird, is there any relation? And she said, That's my mother-in-law, and then she spoke about how important she was and how so these are what when people want to know why my podcast started, it's moments like that where I'm going 12 years ago, we lost somebody that is still being talked about because when Amy reached out to me, that was her point, is she said she didn't have a great connection with a lot of teachers, but with that one, she did, and that's what kind of prompted her to want to say something to me and make that connection. And here we are having this conversation about somebody all these years later that made such a profound impact on a student, one student in that moment. But like you said, there's generations of them. So um, that to me is the power of whatever it is that we're doing here with this podcast is just helping people understand that the work that they do matters. Um, and I'm so thankful that you cross paths with her because is as phenomenal of an educator that Sarah is. Um, the fact that she met Jason and the family started, it's the one thing I would say Sarah is more passionate about than education is her family. So it's like we've come full circle already here in the first 20 minutes of a podcast is how did we get to this point? So now um, and that's just uh you see that uh woven through everything that Sarah does is you know, family, community, and you know, that that can very much encompass her her school community too. So that was a beautiful, beautiful opening to this. So I appreciate you, you know, taking the time to kind of share some of that with me. Anything anything else in that regard?

SPEAKER_01 20:26

I think those those educators were were definitely the the foundation to my start of my career.

SPEAKER_02 20:33

That's awesome. And that's the beauty is everybody's got something that kind of nudged them, or they saw something, or they experienced something that said, and again, in Sarah's case, you heard her the minute she walked in that room, she said, education is cool, but special ed in this case is for some reason where I belong. And when you've worked with amazing special educators, and I've been so blessed to work with so many of them that I decided to start a podcast. Um, not to not to disparage the gen ed people because we're coming after you too. Um, but I've spent so many years working at special ed that there's something about that, when you get into that arena, you go, This is where I belong. And um, you spoke about that really beautifully, so thank you. Um, let's switch gears to something that this is probably kind of the core piece of the work that Sarah and I have done together over all the years with a number of people that have been extremely um tight-knit in this world. But when we get into like verbal and non-verbal de-escalation, what we again we call CPI training, but really we're just gonna talk for a minute about how to approach kids, how to approach staff, how to how to take a complex situation and get the best outcome as possible. Um, so just in some way, let's have a conversation, not just on like I don't want this to be about CPI training, but more of the philosophy of, and let's start with some of those preventative pieces. So, again, for those that are listening at home, this is probably a new kind of thing. You're going, what is this podcast all about? I want to hear inspiring stories that we've already crossed that bridge already today. But I also want you guys to walk away with something where you go, I learned something by sitting down and listening to John talk with insert, you know, guest name in this case it's Sarah. Um, and there's a lot of knowledge that Sarah possesses. So I just want to kind of kind of pull at some of those threads. So, like Sarah, when we're thinking about preventative pieces to try to support student regulation, de-escalation, students kind of can go up and they can come down and they kind of sit in this little pattern. But sometimes they can go way up and sometimes they can go way down. How do we help kind of set the stage preventatively to create an environment where students just kind of have a sense of regulation and it's just kind of the fabric of whatever that environment is? So, how do we kind of set the stage for de-escalation by preventing it to begin with?

SPEAKER_01 22:54

Well, I think the preventative is is the most important. And I think sometimes when people think about de-escalation, they automatically go to that reactive that in the moment. But I don't think that regulation can happen in that moment. It happens at eight o'clock in the morning when we get there. And how are we setting up their day? The last classroom, actually last semester, I changed my role a little bit and went back to the classroom. And I ran more of like a regulation room where kids were in Gen Ed, tried to be in Gen Ed most of the day, but if they needed a break, they came to me to regulate, and then we would send them back. So I knew that part of that day would be that in the moment reactive, we had to regulate. So I tried to put as many preventative supports in place before that I could. Part of that was just building that relationship from the beginning with them. But every day I would come in and I never turned my overhead lights on. I had string lights and lamps. I turned on my projector that played calming music and played just slow visuals for them to watch. Um, I made sure that both of my calming corners had all of their favorite fidgets ready to go. Their reading corner had all of their favorite books to find. I made sure that their breakfast was sitting there ready for them when they walked in. I tried to set the stage so that we could just start the day off with everything they needed ready to go. And I think that all of those preventative things, how can we stop and think, what are they gonna need throughout the day to be ready? Because they're coming in with so much. You talked about some CPI training, and one of the big things I think we always hit on, and that is just those precipitating factors of what are they coming in with? Because they often carry so much that there's no way they're gonna be able to focus on multiplying fractions today. They have so much going on in their head that how can we how can we help them to feel safe enough to regulate? Because we talked, I mean, you and I have talked so many times about just that, that fight or flight, once they're once their mind goes into that survival mode, there's no learning. All they're doing is just defending themselves. And when we're in that fight or flight, and when they're in that survival mode, they're not they're not in the mode to learn.

SPEAKER_02 25:32

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 25:32

And so, how can we make them safe enough? What can we do? How can we make them maybe it's even just letting them chill for a minute when they get there in the morning? Um, having that person to talk to when they get there in the morning, making sure they have breakfast because their day may have been crazy before they got there and they didn't get a chance to eat. How can we set that day up for them to feel safe enough to get through the day?

SPEAKER_02 25:58

Yeah, I love that. So she used that phrase precipitating factor for anybody that's sitting at home and that maybe hasn't gone through like a CPI training and that language might not be familiar. Think about that iceberg. You know, there's all that stuff on top of the water, that ice that we could see. And you're saying, okay, there's the iceberg. But when you go underwater and you you look, you see a much bigger mass that you can't see unless you take that deeper dive look. And when she's talking about precipitating factors, we may not recognize on the surface what's going on with the kid, but we can with many of our kids, we can pretty well be sure that there's some stuff going on that we just don't see or feel or totally understand. Um, and I think what she's saying is we have to be aware of those and knowledgeable. We may not know exactly what it is, but we know that there's some things there. So all of those preventative efforts, like we were thinking about some of our kids coming into our space to start today, and we already know they got some stuff going on. So, how do we set the stage? I think of so many of our kids, they struggle with uh you know executive functioning and putting one foot in front of the other. And how do I get through this day? And we can take a lot of that burden off them by using routines and schedules. I love how you talked about that space. It's like the space that I'm in right now has kind of got that homey vibe of just you feel comfortable when you walk in here. Um, and and so many of our teachers create just amazing spaces where when those kids walk in, you can use the environmental factors, the dim lights, maybe some soft music playing to kind of just be preventative and set those stages for this is a space where you can just come and be. Um, we can maybe let our guard down and maybe develop some of those kind of relationship pieces that you you may not be able to tackle in some of those other spaces. We can just be busy, and that's not a knock on those other spaces. There's you know, maybe 25 kids, and we're all getting ready to dive into a math lesson. For some of our kids, that math lesson is not going to be a top priority. So, in some of these other spaces, how can we kind of set the stage for you know learning later in the day by getting them regulated right now? So now let's talk a little bit about oh boy, all of our preventative efforts did not work, or maybe the kid was in a different environment and they come running down to your room because they need a little missbaired in their life right now because things are getting things are getting uh heated for them. Now we're in a little bit more of a reactive, it's kind of like the stage is set for some of those escalations. What are some of those things that you're thinking about that you go over all these years? I have some aces up my sleeve to pull out when the when the when the you know rubber meets the road, what are some of those things that you can pass along to listeners that you say, when the escalation kind of starts, what are some things to be thinking about and to do?

SPEAKER_01 28:37

I think when it comes to that, oh my gosh, what do I do at this point? I think I go back to that integrated experience, how behavior influences behavior and just remembering what do we want from this? What is our expectation? If our expectation is to try to calm them down, I need to model that calm for them. I need to show them what that calm looks like. So I'm talking to them in a calm voice. I'm using simple words. I'm not giving them a lot of directions because at that point, they're not processing anything. When they are in that dysregulated brain, they're in again going back to that survival brain, they're not thinking about, okay, I need to process what you're saying. I need to figure out what that means, and then I need to do it. That's too much thinking for them. So those simple, clear, direct, though that's what we need to be doing when we're looking at kids like that, uh, one step at a time. Um, co-regulating with them, not just telling them what to do, but showing them what that looks like. I don't know how many times I've just sat on a floor with a kid and just breathing myself. Um he asked about like what tips and tricks I've I've learned that when you just say, Let's take some deep breaths, again, their processing skills are just not there at that point. So I've actually played a game with them at that point, try to kind of turn it around. Um, and all I need for that is a Kleenex. So I would grab a Kleenex and I would say, Let's play a game. I'm gonna hold it in front of my my face and I'm going to just take a deep breath in and I'm gonna blow it and I'm gonna see how far that it blows. Now you try it. Do you think you can blow it farther than me? Just giving them kind of that cognitive distraction, something different for them to focus on, something that may be fun, um, but without them even realizing it, it then got them to take those deep breaths. It got them to breathe in and blow out. And I think it was different than just saying, let's take some deep breaths. You have to show them sometimes what does that look like because in that dysregulated brain, they they're just not processing what that means. So I think that's just being able to co-regulate with them is the part that is really important when they're looking at that. Well, all of the different strategies that we've learned. One of the things that I actually um this past semester, when I was I had my regulation room, one of the probably top favorites of kids when they were right when they were dysregulated was juice cubes. Have you heard of these?

SPEAKER_02 31:19

Go on. I feel like somebody recently has been talking about them, but I'm about to learn something with the listeners here right now. So go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 31:26

So there's it's called a um a dominant sensory distraction. So research has shown that if you can dominate one of your sensory, it will help you to just regulate. So what I did was I just would take some juice and I had these tiny little ice cube trays, and I would fill them with those. And so I would give the kids a little cup of juice cubes and the coldness from the frozen and the tartness from the juice. They would suck them, they would chew on them, and it would like overload that sense and it would help to calm them down. And I had one little kiddo who would come in, I mean, just tearing my room apart. And I mean, everything was destroyed and everything was on the ground. And as long as the table hadn't been tipped over yet, I would just put this little cup of juice cubes on the table, um, along with the strawberry pop tart, because usually when he got like this, he just needed to eat. And we can talk about those meeting those basic needs too.

SPEAKER_00 32:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:28

Um, but he would just sit there and he would just chomp on those juice cubes, and you could just see his shoulders went down, his face would just even out, and it was just that that kind of kick that he needed to just regulate all of those emotions, and it was amazing to see.

SPEAKER_02 32:49

Yeah, that's interesting. I'm I'm kind of learning and listening, and my brain, it's hard to stop thinking of follow-ups, but that's really interesting, and I'm even kind of thinking of like, it's not just the tartness, it's not just the coldness, but I also have to believe that there's something where that kid's going, I just tore this lady's room apart, and here she is, kind of sitting calmly with in this case, maybe a snack or something. He's interpreting it as now she's actually trying to give me something, and I think there's even more that communicates, you know, human to human in that moment of like, I don't love the behavior, I don't love what's happening right now, but I still love you, and I'm still here to meet your needs. So when you're ready, we can chop down on some of these juice cubes and kind of get that distraction piece going and all of that. So I love everything you said. That's the quietest I've ever been for five minutes, just listening. Um, but I am thinking about like this idea. She used the phrase co-regulation. So many of our kids, we ask them to regulate. And in my mind, I'm looking at it going, if I'm the kid, I'm gonna stare at you and go, if I knew how to regulate, I would be regulated. Like I'm not regulated right now, and you're just telling me to regulate or to calm or to whatever. I need help with that. And what she's describing are like masterclass strategies on how to do that, how to sit with a kid, how to how to engage with that Kleenex example, which is very similar to other things that I've heard. Uh, we have a student right now that I'm working with, and when he gets very dysregulated, there's a table and there's like a hole at the end of each table. It just happens to be there. It's like where cords could naturally come up, and we'll take a ball and I'll roll it to him. And the first time he rolls it back, I mean, that son of a gun is hissing, it's coming in hot. But over time, I just roll it nice and slow, and I'm trying to get it to stop into that hole. And then eventually his brain shifts, and he's like, now he's into the game of trying to get it to stop in that hole. And it's that same mentality as the Kleenex. It's like we're gonna start and it's gonna be super aggressive, and the Kleenex is gonna fly all over the place, but eventually we can just kind of co-regulate and get that slower, more methodical, more thoughtful process. So whether it's a ball sliding across the table or a Kleenex flying through the air, we're helping them co-regulate. So that was a really great, a great strategy. So, um, any other thoughts again for our staff at home? And maybe it's time to move on, and that's okay too. But any other thoughts that you're having as it relates to kind of that regulation piece, things that we should be thinking about.

SPEAKER_01 35:16

I think one of the most important things in that regulation piece is making sure that we're not at that point putting forth consequences. It's not, I need you to stop doing that or else. It's let's get you regulated. We can we can reflect on what's going to happen later. But at that point, again, if that processing in that brain, they're in that survival mode. All we need to work, I think we did, I don't remember if it was when we went and saw Heather. Um, or if we did it, it was in one of her books or a talk, but I remember her at some point saying, when a kid goes into that survival mode, all they're thinking about is those next seven seconds. And I always think about that. All I need to get through is the next seven seconds. They're not thinking anything farther than that. So how can we get them through that? And then when that seven seconds is over, okay, what about the next seven? And we take it seven seconds at a time, and we will eventually get to that point where they are in that regulated brain, and then we can reflect and we can look at next steps. But I think that's that's one part that's really important for educators to remember is we're not there yet. We'll get to that consequence. And consequences don't always have to be a negative. And I think that's another important part that is worth some discussion of how what is this consequence going to be? Because a lot of times that just natural consequence is enough for a student. They don't need anything more. But with that, then how are we teaching them? It's not always just that consequence of, you know, when when that kiddo came in and destroyed my room, it it wasn't now you're being sent home because look at what you did. It's hey, this this is a mess. We need to clean it up. I'm gonna help you, but we're gonna do it together. And again, it's that that co-regulation from the beginning, and then we follow that through all the time. And I think it goes back to, you know, just kind of that very first thing we talked about is just having them know that somebody's in their corner. I just destroyed this, and yeah, I need to be responsible to pick it up, but I have somebody who has my back. So it's okay, you pick up five, and I'll pick up three. Do you want to pick up the table or do you want to pick up the chair? Do you want to pick up the chair by yourself or would you like help with it?

SPEAKER_02 37:40

I'm gonna interrupt. But what you're hearing her talk about, she didn't use the word choices yet. But in this moment, if I just say pick that up, pick that up, pick that up, uh-huh, uh, we're still dealing with a kid that's very much uh in that dregulated state. Uh, you know, we're we're calming down, the temperature is coming down, but we got to be very thoughtful of how we're still approaching this. So if we're just gonna start pointing at things and saying, pick it up, you get what you give sometimes. And I love how she's saying that. Like, let's set up some choices. Do you want to pick this up or that up? Um, you'll be surprised at how much further along this process you'll get if you just meet that kid kind of in the middle, meet him halfway, um, show I didn't destroy the room, but what? So, why am I helping pick it up? Well, well, because we're in this together, that's why I don't know how else to say it, but I got your back right now. I know you're going through something difficult. So let's get this together. Let's write this wrong. Let's, you know, that can be a consequence in and of itself. But um, you know, I just love the idea, even uh when we start talking about consequences, how do we assign a consequence that's going to prepare you to do better when you encounter this challenge in the future? And sometimes our consequences are just, you know, you lose access to something. Okay, well, you lost access to recess. How is that going to better prepare you to navigate the social conflict that you had earlier today, or when a teacher put a test on your desk and became overwhelmed and you know broke your pencil? Like missing recess doesn't nothing to help alleviate that concern. So, how do we teach some of those skills? And um, you know, even the natural consequence of cleaning a room, you don't want to clean a room. The best way to not have to clean a room is to not destroy it. So, just kind of having the feeling of you know, there's a consequence here, and and it's I gotta take time out of my day. So, God, you said so many things that I had to be quiet for like three minutes there, and that was very difficult. That's hard for you. It is very hard for me. Sarah knows me better than most, and just sitting and listening is very difficult. But and I mean this very sincerely, like she's saying so many things that my head I'm just going over here going, yep, yep. Um, that's real knowledge that she's sharing with us. So it's just it's fun to kind of talk shop and shoot back and forth. So um, okay. I'm gonna switch gears here, Sarah, and I'm gonna talk about something that is you don't have the whole corner, you know, surrounded here, I guess, but it's something very unique to you and just the way you approach it. But I want to talk a little bit about how you support not only your colleagues and the importance of that, and that doesn't have to be just what you what you do, but also how people have supported you in the past and in different ways, but also the community piece. And I know there's some things that you do that are very specific. Um, that you're it's just something about you, it's something in your heart that I want to support my colleagues very well and let them know that they matter and that they're important, but also then when we start getting into like how do we make a big impact on our community? There's something in that brain of yours that just um it's it's a passion for you. I know that without having to ask it. So let's talk about it. What's the importance? You know, what what what are your thoughts on you know making sure our staff and our community are being supported?

SPEAKER_01 40:46

I think everybody listening is in some way connected to education. So they would probably agree with the statement that education is hard, being in it every day is hard. And if we don't support each other, we're gonna burn out. I've seen a lot of staff burn out, especially I feel like the last five years, it's been even more so. Um expectations rise. I feel like a lot of behaviors rise. And I think that if we don't support each other and help each other regulate, a dysregulating teacher can't regulate a kid. So how can we help each other to stay calm, to stay together, to just get through the day? I know so far we've talked about just how do we get kids through the day. But if a teacher can't get through their day, how are they supposed to help a student get through theirs? So I think that supporting teachers is huge. Sometimes it's just a little note. Um, I've done in my consultant role a lot of observations where I've just spent some time in classrooms and I've seen amazing things with staff, but I've also seen they're tired. And even just getting one through one class sometimes is just a big sigh at the end. And so sometimes it's just, you know, on my way out, leaving a note on their desk. That was a great lesson. You did wonderful, great job answering that question that came out of the blue. At some point, I would send out a Google form to my staff and just say, What is your favorite treat? What is your favorite snack? And kiddos that we were working with that were just I knew were struggling and having a rough week. I know that that reflects on the staff. And so it might have been just leaving a bag of peanut MMs on their desk or in their mailbox. And I don't know how many times I've done that and I've just gotten a text or an email that said, thank you so much. I just needed, I needed somebody in my corner today. And again, we talked about that with kids all the time. Like we need to be in the corner, but we have to support our staff too, so that we're able to do that for kids. And I think that that's really important to just make sure that we're okay because sometimes we're not.

SPEAKER_02 43:21

Amen. Uh, we were talking about the iceberg earlier. And if you think that only applies to students, I got news for you. We're humans, we are adult humans in a building, and we go through things. And uh sometimes our dog is sick, and sometimes we got pulled over on the way to work, or sometimes, you know, I gotta make that utility payment, and boy, it's gonna be tough this month, and we're stressed and we're anxious. So when life's hitting us in the classroom, it's like we're not in the best space sometimes to deal with that or to handle that. But then here comes this person, and kind of leading the charge is Sarah on I see. You, I recognize that you're working extremely hard, you're pouring your heart and soul into kids, but I also recognize that you're a human being. And um, it's funny, you know, you didn't hear her say, I'm just gonna leave some MMs on your desk or in your mailbox. It's peanut MMs because that's the unique thing about this person I'm sitting here talking to, is she's gonna figure out exactly what you want and she's gonna use a structured format, maybe a Google form or something. Um, because she doesn't want to just get you a treat, she wants to get you your treat. And I'm working with people now in my current role that if you go get them a diet coke instead of a coke, you got a problem. But if you get them a coke with extra ice, you have just made their day because you're saying to them, that is actually what I want. You saw me, you know that about me. And that's something very unique about Sarah. She she does those things and she's modeled that to the point where now I'm stealing her ideas and I'm trying to do that with some of the amazing people that I work with that are all on board with some of these things of like, let's really try to take care of the people that we're working with because I'm better off if you're better off. So it's like a selfish side of me of like, I want the people around me to be in as good a space as possible. But like when you get to work with people for a long period of time and you see what they pour into this stuff, yeah, I'm gonna go out of my way if I need to to to help you or to support you. And it's funny how that always comes back tenfold, it feels like, you know, I you know, I do something for you, and then all of a sudden people start doing it, it's just like it's this little ripple. And I I talk about we talk about, you know, like orange frog training and getting those ripples going. And that somehow part of it is whether it's a little note or it's a little bag of uh peanut MMs or that specific drink that somebody likes, and that feels good to get that, so it's easier for me then to maybe pass that out to somebody else. So Sarah is usually the one that throws the little pebble in the pond and gets the ripples going, and then the rest of us are like, Oh, all right, the ripples are already there, so let's keep them going. So that I definitely want to talk about. I don't really, you know, I use the phrase Genesis for like my podcast. Like, I have a Genesis episode of like, where did this come from? Why am I doing this? So, for those that know Sarah, this won't be like a surprise, but for people that are listening that either don't know Sarah or don't know what she's into, what's up with this sweatshirt thing that you got going? Because this has become a thing. Yes, this has become a thing, and I I I'm hoping that it can continue to be a thing long into the future because it's really powerful. So I'm gonna give you just a moment. Where did I have and I don't know the answer to this, and that's why I'm excited to ask. Where did this come from? What's the genesis to the sweatshirt project we can call it that Sarah tends to take on every every late fall, early winter? Um, so I'm gonna hush my mush and let you talk. What's up with that?

SPEAKER_01 46:45

I feel like the kids that I work with, um they not only struggle with the behaviors in the classroom, but sometimes they're their whole entire family struggles. And we see it with kids who come all winter and just a t-shirt, or they wear they only have one sweatshirt, so they wear it every day, and then they get teased for that, or there's hygiene issues. And one of my hobbies outside of school is um I make just put designs on shirts and sweatshirts. And so I have a bunch of extra sweatshirts, and I thought, you know what, I could we could just start donating. I've got some extra sweatshirts in my basement. This kid needs a sweatshirt. And I had three years ago, I had probably seven kids that I had worked with that I was like, this kid needs one, and this kid needs one. And so I opened it up to some friends and family, and I said, I have seven kids who need a sweatshirt. Would anybody be interested in just donating a sweatshirt to them? And I had seven kids in mind and I had enough support, enough people that reached out and said, Yes, I want to do that, I want to do that. I was able to donate 79 sweatshirts.

SPEAKER_02 48:09

And each one of them matters.

SPEAKER_01 48:12

And a lot of our kids who need it, they um a lot of them were some of our program kids who come from all over the county. So they may not necessarily be in a school where they're a resident district. So, you know, they're not really feeling like they belong. Um, a lot of our students, they just can't afford when the school spirit store comes out to purchase, you know, a brand new sweatshirt with their school name on it. So not only was it just a plain sweatshirt, it was, well, let's put the school name on it and let's give them some belonging. So all of those 79 sweatshirts had their school name on it, just as a wearable sign that I belong here. So the next year I said, you know what? I'm I'm not just gonna pick these kids. I'm actually gonna reach out to all the teachers and I'm gonna say, Who do you have that fits this bill? And the amount of response I got back from staff was crazy. It really opened my eyes to, okay, my seven kids who I saw was just a tiny little sampling of the kids who are really in need of this.

SPEAKER_02 49:23

The tip of the iceberg.

SPEAKER_01 49:24

I mean, the stories that I got back. This kid is living in a garage, this kid is homeless, this kid just had a fire and lost everything. I mean, the we talked about precipitating factors, but the stuff that these kids are carrying was really eye-opening. So the second year we did it, we were able to donate 134. And the third year, we were able to donate 127. So just the what really fills my bucket is is hearing the stories afterwards. I I had a teacher email me this year and say, I have a kid who got called down to the office and immediately he thought he was in trouble. And when he got to the office, he was told that he won a raffle and here's your brand new sweatshirt. And he was so excited because not only wasn't he in trouble, but he had never won anything before in his life. And me being able to go into all of these different buildings and just walking down the hallway and seeing a kiddo wearing it, it just fills my bucket so much to know that I was able to just help some little bit and just put a smile on their face. And in the end, that's what it matters, it's what matters, right? Is just being able to put that smile on their face and being able to keep them warm. Um, I always do it right before Christmas. So I deliver them the week before Christmas vacation. So it's like a little extra Christmas present because a lot of these kids who need the sweatshirt aren't having a lot of presents for Christmas. So just that extra little something um really has filled my bucket.

SPEAKER_02 51:08

You know, I love that. And I love that, you know, I don't know if she's using the phrase bucket filler. Um, that's a thing that I talk about. It's a thing that you'll see on my Facebook page. And I really do believe that that if we can identify it almost forces us to look for like gratitudes, and then if we talk about them, it's not in a bragging manner, it's not, oh, I made 138 switchers. It's it feels good to me. I know it feels good to the kiddo, and it, you know, and it's like those again, those ripples, they they they carry on because I've literally shared your uh so the thing that Sarah hasn't talked about is the amount of time and energy, and she doesn't need to get into it because that's gonna make her feel like we're tooting her horn and we're not here to toot her horn anymore. We already did that at the very beginning, but I can assure you there's a lot of time and energy that goes into this. You'll see this big Facebook thing come out, and I've had so many of my friends who don't even work in education have commented to me or reached out and said, Hey, how do I support that? Because we we can take a step out of education and take a big, big step into humanity of just knowing there's a good person out there that's trying to do good things for other good people, and I want to be part of it somehow. So I know that that spread even beyond education is just people see it and they go, Yeah, that seems like a great, you know, 15, 20 bucks. And I know that a kid's gonna have a sweatshirt. And I love how you talked about not just a sweatshirt, but let's put the school name on it because again, it gives a sense of community, and that's those relationships, and I want to feel part of something. And what better way to feel part of the community that you you live and breathe in all day long at school is to have a sweatshirt or something that says, I'm part of this, I'm a I'm a Hemeter Hornet, or I'm a St. Charles Bulldog or a Hemlock Husky. Like that feels good to feel part of. And for our students that may not have an opportunity to take care of that on their own, for us to be able to give them some warmth and some some community pieces, it it crosses um it checks a lot of boxes for things that I think are very valuable. So um, I'm glad we had a chance to talk about that briefly because I know it's um it's a piece that's near and dear to your heart, and it's just kind of taken on a life of its own year after year that it's continued to grow, and I have people that look forward to it, and I know I do too. So let's keep that one going. That's a really cool thing that you do. So I know we talked about this kind of at the very opening, but just reiterating before we transition into our next topic is this this person that I'm talking to is just take so much time and energy, and it's just such a piece of who she is as a professional, just to make sure the people that are around her are okay, um, and how much that really, really does matter. So thank you for all of that. We are gonna segue into a topic um now that I don't even know where this is gonna go. I'm actually nervous to say these two words right now, and I don't know why I'm feeling a sense of angst, but I'm gonna just say them and we're gonna see where this goes. I'm gonna say the two are clip charts. And if you're listening to this, because if you're listening to this in 2026, you're probably familiar with John LaFever and maybe in some weird way. And I have this thing with clip charts. And if you're listening to this further down the road and you have no idea who I am, you might be scratching your head going, God, back in 2019, somebody said something about clip charts online that kind of went crazy. Well, it's nice to meet you. I'm that guy. I became the clip chart guy. But the reason I'm talking about it today is because Sarah is actually the clip chart girl. Um, I don't even know where I want this conversation to go. I just I just know that I want it to go, I don't I want it to be positive and reflective. These gall darn clip charts that we see in our in our schools. Um, there's some sides to them, and this is where I want to be cautious. And I'm gonna end up talking more more specifically about this in the future because I don't want to stir up any controversy or conflict. That's not the nature of this podcast at all. Um, but there are some things that we have recognized as it relates to clip charts that don't feel as warm and fuzzy as maybe on the surface you think of when you think of a clip chart. And when we're talking about clip chart, for anybody that's not aware, um you'll see them in classrooms where, you know, if a student does something wonderful, you teacher might say, Hey, Billy, go clip up, that was awesome. Or if a student, you know, doesn't meet an expectation or struggles in some way, hey buddy, go clip down. You know, inherently that's kind of the nature of them, and it's a way to kind of recognize kind of where we're at throughout the day. But Sarah kind of brought to some of us as educators maybe some of her concerns with clip charts. And I don't know how to handle this conversation. So I'm gonna actually I'm gonna interview you, I'm gonna pause and I'm just gonna let you kind of talk about maybe again, I'm gonna go back to that word that Genesis. Where did this idea come from? Because I'm known as like the clip chart guy somehow, but it's it's Sarah's brainchild that we we did this. I was just the crazy guy with a Twitter account that put it out there. Um, so it's it's really the first opportunity I've had to kind of come out of my hiding because after the clip chart thing went viral back in 2019, it kind of freaked me out, if I'm being very honest. And that's why I'm very cautious with how I'm handling this conversation because I never want to offend anybody or make somebody feel like I'm pointing a light at them that you're doing this thing in your classroom that you shouldn't be doing. It's not that at all. It's just we've had a chance to really reflect on maybe the nature of clip charts. And then we did this wild and crazy thing that wasn't that wild and crazy, but it really went wild and crazy online. Um, and for those that know me well, I don't like going viral. And for those that don't know me, I don't like going viral. Um, but it kind of did, and it it really sent a shock through through me as an educator and as a professional. Um, so let's just talk about the genesis. What where did that whole idea come from to do this clip chart experiment?

SPEAKER_01 57:00

Well, I think any behavior system that teachers have um has good intentions, but I think that looking at clip charts, there was um there was a lot of kind of unseen going on, um, even with the good intentions of like, let's let's point out to you what's going on. Because I agree with that. I think sometimes that you don't realize what you're doing until it's pointed out to you. But the way clip charts are being pointed out, um I think that was that was the problem or is the problem. We talked earlier about kids going into um that fight or flight. And I think once that flip, that switch flips, um it changes a lot. So when students are being called out on what they're doing publicly in front of their peers, and they have to get up, walk across to all of their classes, classmates, and visually go clip down to show all of their class that what they just did was bad. Um, I think for a lot of our kids it it makes that that flip and the that switch change. And it goes from teaching those expectations to humiliation. And once a kid feels that humiliation, that escalation is just going to rise. And that's where I was seeing the big problem with chip club with um clip charts. And in my years of experience as a consultant, it's been my job, and probably the hardest part of my job is going in and seeing these things and then trying to communicate with staff. Like, okay, here's what I'm seeing, let's see if we can fix it. And I found that just talking, um, from my point of view, it it's really hard to kind of change someone's mindset by telling them this is what we should do, this is what we shouldn't. In my experience, if you can actually go through it and you can experience what I'm telling you, it it just seems to kind of click more. So I kind of had the idea of um let's make them see how it feels. And not in a mean way, not in a, you know, just uh we're talking to them and we're telling them, but it's not really clicking. How do we make this click? And for me personally, that's how it clicks for me is if I can experience it. So um I got some colored construction paper and I glued them all together and laminated them, and I made a clip chart and we used it in one of our CPI trainings. And honestly, it was the worst training we've, I mean, I've done hundreds of those trainings, and it was the worst training ever.

SPEAKER_02 59:55

For real.

SPEAKER_01 59:56

Um, even just for me as a teacher, I couldn't even concentrate on what we were teaching. I mean, it's a good thing we've done that training a hundred times and I could do it in my sleep because I couldn't even figure out what I was trying to say next or where we were in the lesson, because I was so worried about trying to find somebody who was on their phone or talking to the person next to them, or had something else out that I would have them go clip down for. And so I had a hard time concentrating just because I felt like I was focusing on that. I really had a hard time because I was able to see how the staff were reacting. And I think that was the huge point of this. The staff had such anxiety. We actually had somebody leave training because she literally had a panic attack. And I think that's the point where we're like, okay, we've got to stop this because it was kind of scary. Um, but I think it was a real eye-opener to staff to see, oh my gosh, these instructors are calling me out in front of all of my peers, all of these other educators. I have to get up, walk in front of this whole training to go clip down. We actually had on a break, like we were taking a break. The point of a break is to get up, stretch, go to the bathroom. And we had a grown man during a break ask if he could go to the bathroom. Like it just showed me like we were scaring these people. Like they weren't there enjoying the training. They were nervous, they they didn't even know if they could take a break and go to the bathroom without asking. And I think that was the eye-opener of at least for everybody in that training, that mind shift that we were hoping for of this is what it's like for these students. Is this really what I want to put them through?

unknown 1:01:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:49

The thing that I remember about that day is it was it just it was her thought. She put the work into creating this thing, and it was like, is today the day we're gonna do it? And I said, let's let's do it. Um, but I want to be very clear like we talked, and and these are colleagues of ours, some of them we probably didn't know as well, but many of them we knew very well. So we just we we were flat honest with them. Hey guys, we're gonna do this little experiment. It's it's more for kind of a social experiment for fun. We're not actually taking it seriously, we're not actually gonna call your supervisor and say you're on it's not that, and they knew that, so it was a very safe experiment, but everything Sarah just said was real. I remember a lady pausing and she goes, Well, hold up now. Somebody just got clipped up because they answered a question, and then I answered a question, but you didn't clip me up, so like what's up with that? And we had to like pause, and that's why she said it was a terrible training, and we only did it for maybe the first half of the morning session. It wasn't that long because people were literally rebelling, and I'm not being like funny when I say this, they were just like, This is this is ridiculous. Um, I don't feel comfortable, like I'm judging what everybody else gets clipped up or down. And one lady I remember, and I'll never forget this. She goes, I can't even focus on what you're talking about because I'm so nervous that I'm gonna say or do something that's gonna get me clipped down, even though I know this is just for fun. And it really hit us to the point where we're like, they hate this. And some of the conversations leading up to it was like, you know, students after school, it's like, hey, how was your day? And the first thing they say is, like, I got clipped down. And it's like, we're talking to a kiddo that has probably never had a conduct report or a violation of any sort. And it's like the one thing that they could pull from their day is that they got clipped down. Like, what's up with that? And it's like it's almost that layer of anxiety of like this tool kind of almost starts to represent, How am I as a human being in this weird way? And so that was kind of the genesis, and then watching it unfold with adult staff members was just wild. I mean, they were like so adamant, they're like, Can we just be done with that so we can actually learn something today? So we took it down, and that was the end of it. But what happened is I think we went to Wendy's, if I'm remembering, for lunch, and I was just starting to use like a professional Twitter account at the time. It was Twitter, now it's X. Um, and I remember I was kind of getting into like, you know, doing things professionally on Twitter, and I just thought, I remember I think we're at Wendy's, and I'm like, well, just put that on Twitter. And I put something to the effect of, you know, we utilized a clip chart with adults for an adult PD. And, you know, they ended up basically saying that they felt resentment, embarrassment, frustration, anxiety, and all those things. And I just kind of said at the end, if adults feel that way, how do we think kids feel? And I hit send and we went along our day and we finished our training. And um, I remember in that evening, my phone was just zzz, just a non-stop. And I'm like, what is going on? And I don't know what it means to go viral. I'm not a Kardashian, but it felt like I was because people went crazy over this clip chart thing. So um, it's just where I get anxious because the world that I live in here in Saginaw County and the the place that I I breathe and live and breathe in, people know my spirit, I think. And I think they know that I wasn't intending to like upset people or call out anybody. So that's when you listen to my Genesis episode, you're gonna hear like the phrasing of I want conversation, not combat. I want curiosity over certainty. This is my way of literally saying I am not trying to call somebody out that's using a clip chart. I've had people say, I use a clip chart and it's amazing. And then to that, I go, Congratulations, you must be doing so many things as a teacher that are just incredible that kids can can operate within that clip chart kind of environment, and they and they're doing great. So kudos to you. I'm not trying to change anybody's mind, I'm not trying to sway, I'm just trying to have conversation and just for those that might be using them or have used them in the past to go, oh, there might be a different side to that coin. Let's talk about it. Let's try to understand maybe from the student's perspective what that could feel like. Um, so that's really all that was, but it it it did become a thing. It very much became a thing. Um, and I might feel it more than Sarah because it wasn't her Twitter account going crazy, it was mine. But every time I'd see her for months after that, I'm like, oh my God, Sarah, the conversations keep going and they keep going. So in this weird way, I'm I'm I'm a staff member in this little piece of Michigan called Saginaw County, and that thing kind of went all over the world, and that really freaked me out. Like it scared me to the point where I kind of went into my hiding for about five or six years. And now here I am with this podcast.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:30

Bringing it back up.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:32

Bringing it back up, I guess. But I had to because here we have the mastermind behind the whole thing anyway. So um it was just such a unique experience that I've never experienced anything like it. Um, and it kind of goes to show maybe the power of the words and how we we we talk about things, and that's one of the reasons why I'm so cautious with how I'm rolling this out because I don't ever want it to become, oh, this guy has this platform and he's you know belittling the work that other people are doing, or he's he thinks he's better than he's gonna call people up for these clip charts or anything else. That's never the case. Um, so that's why, even approaching this conversation with Sarah, I'm going, How am I even gonna talk about this? I hope I'm you know expressing myself okay, but that's the gen, that's the genesis of it. So for anybody that's in Australia listening to this, going, I wondered where that clip chart story came from. Now you know. Um, it was just uh a handful of people that are into behavior and into supporting students and into supporting staff and just trying to have that experiential opportunity to say, is that tool doing what we think it's doing? Or are there some impacts down the road, or you know, that maybe again that stuff that's under the surface that we don't pick up on that students might feel a different way than we expect them to as those tools are being rolled out.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:47

So well, I think that's a great way to describe it as just when we're looking at educators, that's what we do, right? Is we have this idea and we experiment. Is this gonna work? And so um it definitely opened our eyes to to a lot on that day.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:03

Yeah, so we'll probably talk more about it. Um it's just that one moment of my career where uh I'll say the short stubby little bald guy in Saginaw County got real uncomfortable. So I'm still kind of dealing with that. So uh I'm gonna stop tripping over my words as it relates to clip charts because we'll we'll we'll circle back and we'll have more conversations. So, again, if that's a conversation that you might have in your teacher's lounge, or maybe uh teachers will kind of pair up and have some conversation and go, man, is that a practice that we can have a deeper discussion about? Maybe even talk, you know, again, I'm gonna go. I thought I was done talking about this, but now I'm not. Maybe even ask your students. I'm a huge believer in getting student input and student feedback. And if that's a tool that you're using, maybe just pause and say, hey guys, is this something that you guys find valuable? Is there anything that I'm missing? And if they say, no, this is wonderful, we love this, then I'm gonna clap. Uh you can't you can't see me, but I'm clapping. I just don't want to clap right next to the microphone. But then keep you like, do what works for you in your space. But through that conversation and getting student feedback, you might learn that there's some unintended impact on our students that that we just don't see and feel unless students just come forward and start talking about it. So, again, curiosity over certainty always. Let's just keep having good conversations. So, uh, two more questions for you, Sarah. We're just over an hour now. So I'm gonna start wrapping this up and I want to ask two more questions. The first one is this is gonna be a recurring theme on the show. And I want to know from every guest that I sit down with if you had only one word that you could use to describe the ideal or the perfect educator. There's so many characteristics and qualities of what makes an amazing educator amazing, but you only get one word. And if you have to throw a hyphen in there or something to stretch it out, by all means, feel free. But what's your one word to describe the perfect or ideal educator, Sarah?

SPEAKER_01 1:10:07

If I had to break it down into one word, I think what encompasses everything I try to put in would be caring. I think that it at the end of the day, kids need to know that they have someone in the corner, they have someone who's there for them who's gonna look out for them and help them get throughout their day. So I think that if we sprinkle, I think you used that term before, we sprinkle a little bit of caring in everything that we do with kids. I think that that's going to help them to get through their day.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:44

Love it. You could put so many, I don't know. I it's just gonna be a question that I want to ask everybody because there's so many words you could use. And every time somebody uses one, I'm like, yep, that's a great word. Um, caring. Uh I don't care how great you know your content. I don't care, you know, do you have all the materials prepped just right? Like if those kids show up in your space and they know day in and day out that when they walk in there, they're they're going to be confronted with somebody that deeply cares about them, you're off to a great start. A lot of the other pieces will fall in place.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:16

And I think that's our as educators, that's our main job is to keep kids safe, give them a safe place to go for seven hours a day. Because we talked earlier, they have so much that they are carrying that all we need to do is keep them safe for seven hours. Then our job is done.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:35

I love it. So caring is the word of the day for Sarah. Uh, last question, and we can take this in any angle that we want. Um, but because this will also, for the most part, become a recurring question, and Sarah's really the first guest. Um, I didn't I didn't get into this with my mom, so she's the first guinea pink to kind of address this question. But there's a lot of reasons why I want to ask it. And I guess the heart of it is no matter who I'm talking to, if I'm talking to a teacher, uh a secretary, a custodian, a bus driver, a paraprofessional, because I'm going to talk to all of them. Um, I want to know from your perspective, why does the work that you do, the niche that you find yourself in, why does that matter? Why would you encourage somebody to get into it? You know, I'm thinking about, you know, you could you could be a behavior person in lots of environments. Why choose a school setting? You could be a teacher in lots of environments. Why choose an emotionally impaired type of an environment where students have pretty significant complex behavioral needs, uh, social emotional needs? You could be a consultant in and out of schools doing lots of things. Why be a consultant for students that have, again, those complex behavioral needs? You could be a paraprofessional in lots of different environments, in or outside of schools. Why choose to operate in an environment that would support students with deep and complex behavioral, social, emotional needs? Um, we know all of the negatives to that. We we understand you all you have to do is say, I'm a teacher in a in a classroom or a program for students with complex behavior and emotional needs. Like, we can all hear that and take ourselves to the challenging spots of it. And if that's all we ever talk about, then who's ever going to sign up for that work? And on this podcast, I want to take it and flip it on its head and to say, yeah, that works hard. You said it earlier. Education is hard. Like, okay, we've demystified that. Let's talk about why should somebody maybe listen as the supervisors nudging them to say, hey, there's another place in this building that you could fit great in, or maybe you're a paraprofessional. And I work with some of them currently, and I've worked with a whole bunch of them in my past that are so good at co-regulating. I'm like, there is a space for you that you could do this a lot, and with kids that it really matters with. So maybe somebody's nudged you and said, Hey, this EI program needs a para, or I want to build an EI program, but it's hard to find a teacher. Or, you know, I've been an EI teacher, but now I want to maybe take on a consultant role. Why should somebody choose to kind of go into that uh EI realm, the the behavioral, emotional, social uh emotional components? Why take on that when we know it already from the get-go that it's hard? Talk to us.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:36

Yeah, I think there's no question that it's a challenging world to live in. But I think I think with anything, the more challenging something is, the more you get out of it. I think that it's just so rewarding to be able to see these kids who come in and struggle with a lot of times, they just feel like they're the bad kid. They've gotten in trouble their whole life. They have a hard time regulating their behaviors and their emotions, and because of that, they've gotten in trouble. And so to be able to teach them the skills that take them from viewing themselves as the bad kid to see some success, to be able to see them being able to regulate on their own and get through situations that they couldn't have gone through before. It's so rewarding. And it's so we talked earlier about filling your bucket. That's that's the biggest bucket filler. Um, it's just to be able to see that change and grow. And it doesn't happen overnight. Um, we've got some kids who can't get through one class without needing a break. Um, a lot of kids don't recognize that they even need that break. So to see that change from not being able to make it through one class to finding the skills or to being able to teach them the skills to get them through not only one class, but a whole day without getting kicked out of class. That's huge, just to see that enjoyment on their face of I did it, I was able to get through the day. The recognition that they have when I had my self-contained EI room, I I had a kiddo in sixth grade. So it was middle school, so sixth, seventh, and eighth grade, I had them for three years. First week of sixth grade. We had a pretty severe day. Um, I got bit enough that I had to go get a tennis shot, um, bit through the skin. And the next couple days, um, it was it was kind of bandaged up and and bruised and everything. And he never said a word about it. Eighth grade. I always did a big eighth grade graduation celebration for them when they ended eighth grade. And at his eighth grade graduation celebration, he said, I am so sorry for biting you in sixth grade. So it took two, it took three years. But that the ability for him to verbalize that he one did something wrong, two, took ownership of it, and three, was able to apologize for it, that was huge. So to be able to see just that that growth of students and being able to see that self-awareness and and watch them to develop these skills, it's incredible. Um and I think that's just working in the world of EI in general. But working in a self-contained room, the relationships that you're able to build with these kids. I was with my kids from 745 to 245 every day. I didn't take a lunch, I didn't take a prep. It was us all day long. And we built a family, and it was just incredible to see these kids open up. We were able to give each other so many just life experiences, and you're able to work on life skills and social skills, and it's not just working on, you know, this is how we teach math. You build all of that into life skills. And I think in that self-contained world, you have so many different opportunities that you don't get out in even just a resource room. We were able to incorporate everything, um, all of the academics into life skills. We were able to um even just the way they earned, they earned points for good behaviors, it turned into money at the end of the week. And so we worked into math skills. Here's your paycheck. Every point that you earned turned into a penny, and here's your paycheck. And we actually used checks at the end of the week. And I went to a bank and got actual bank locks and um checkbook balance.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:59

That was a surprise.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:00

And we taught them how to balance a checkbook and they had to write out a check and make sure they signed it and balance their checkbook for everything they then bought in the class store every week with that money they earned and just really turning everything into life lessons. We started every single day with a class chat and just really built on that community and that family.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:23

Can you paint a picture of what a class chat for you and somebody might be listening to go and I do something similar, but what did it look like in your space?

SPEAKER_01 1:19:29

Yeah, we all came together and sat around our um our table and we shared, they all had two minutes to talk about whatever they wanted for that day, something that happened that night, something that they were excited about. Um, kind of got the idea. My family at home, we do a high low every night. What was the high part of your day? What was the low part? And you don't have to have a low, but you always have to have a high. You always have to find some positive of your day. And so I kind of took that and I incorporated it in my my classroom family. And we did a class chat about, you know, what's what's going on in your life. And if they didn't feel like they wanted to share, then they didn't have to, they could pass. But just giving them that opportunity to say, This is me, this is what's going on, and I want you to be a part of that. Um, and then we always had a class topic for the day. We did life skills and social skills every single day. So, usually whatever our topic was for that social skills class, we somehow incorporated that into our morning to start our day with some kind of a class chat topic of let's get our brain thinking about this. And this is going to be our focus for the day. And how can we really work together to accomplish this? And so I think just that overall sense of family and sense of coming together and working through together, I think that was my favorite part of just having that self-contained classroom.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:56

Yep. I love that. So if you're into relationships, if you're into those smaller settings where you get to know people very deeply, um, well beyond the surface level, where you're going to be very close with your staff, and I got your back and you got mine, and um all of those things, if if that feels like it's something that you would be drawn to, yeah, it's a hard world, it's a hard job, but it's so rewarding in so many ways. I've had so many conversations with people, and I and I I talk about our kids that have pretty significant behavior stuff going on where I go. I love working with them and those teams because if you can somehow get this right, and you don't have to knock it out of the park, if you can get some of it right and reduce maybe the intensity or the frequency of these behavioral kind of episodes, the kid has a better day, the gen ed teacher has a better day, the special ed teacher has a better day, the paraprofessionals have a better day, the lunch staff have a better day, the bus driver has a better day, the parent that doesn't get a phone call that says you need to come pick your kid up, or hey, I want to let you know that your kid, you know, maybe got hurt because they were, you know, playing aggressively or whatever it may be, the parents not getting those phone calls, and all of a sudden those phone calls turn into, hey, I just want to let you know about this really awesome thing that your kid did. And the principal has more time to do what they need to do throughout the day because they're not responding to a crisis. Like, and I mean it's very sincerely, if you can get one or two things right with some of these really complex kiddos, everybody has a better day, and you will you'll feel that appreciation from staff of like, I don't know how this happened, I don't know what that little strategy you did, or or all of a sudden we've we got them with a you know a visual schedule, or maybe they're taking sensory breaks throughout the day and they're on a sensory diet, or you got the OT working with them, or the the speech person has built a communication uh device, you know, loaded with all their core words and they're using that, like whatever that is, everybody will sit around and go, our days go so much better now because we are able to tweak some of this, and that's maybe some of even taking that that edge of if this sounds like it's something that might be for you, then give it a shot because it is deeply, deeply, deeply rewarding.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:08

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:09

So I love that. So again, it's it's a it's a it's a niche part of our educational community that's often um understaffed for various reasons. I mean, a lot of our educational community feels like it's understaffed lately, but but these can be difficult spaces to staff fully. And here you have somebody that's been working in this field for 20 years who when I asked her if we could talk about this, she said, I would love to be able to speak positively about these spaces and the work that's happening there. So kudos to Sarah, kudos to all the other educators, paras, um, principals that support this work, special supervisors who are you know fighting day in and day out to try to get some of these programs developed to do the work that's really necessary for some of these kids. And um what a beautiful testament to the power and the rewarding side of that uh that can spin out of food, but it is very difficult and complex work. So so thank you for that. Sarah, as we start wrapping up, is there anything else that you want to talk about? Things that you're thinking about uh before we hit the end record button on this here device.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:13

I would actually love to send out a challenge to your listeners.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:17

Oh, a challenge.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:19

So I want you to think about your favorite educator. And I'm not just gonna say teacher because I know there are so many different educators out there. So it could have been a teacher, a coach, a social worker. And I'm thinking that all of you probably have somebody popping into your head. I want you to think about the why. Why did that person pop into your head as somebody who really stood out to you? I can pretty much guarantee it wasn't because they had an amazing lesson on how to add and subtract fractions, or they taught you how to write the perfect five-paragraph essay. More than likely, it's because of a way they made you feel. Connection they had with you, they saw something in you that maybe you didn't even see in yourself. And I want you to think about your current students now. And if I asked them 20 years from now why you were their favorite educator, what would they say? I think that's where the challenge comes in is how do you want to be remembered as an educator? And every day you walk into that building, I want you to think about what am I gonna do today that really works on my how I'm going to be remembered. I think a lot of times in education we get asked, what's your why? But I want to really reframe that to think about your how and how you're gonna be remembered. Because I don't think that kids remember the lessons, academic lessons that we teach, but I do know that they remember how you made them feel. So that's my challenge as we wrap this up, and I think just really thinking about how do I want to be remembered, and am I going to put that into every day that I'm working with kids?

SPEAKER_02 1:26:09

I love that. I didn't know where that was gonna go. I we talked a little bit before we started recording, and she said, I have a challenge at the end. And I said, I bet you do. That feels very Sarah Bear-like. Um, and I absolutely love that. It's it's part of the fabric of this podcast is recognizing those that impacted us, but she's even taking it and twisting it a little bit more of like, recognize how somebody impacted you, and then how do we kind of replicate that in our work? Um, so how do we become better at what we do? So maybe 20 years down the road, Amy Stone, who is giving a shout out to your dear mother-in-law for the amazing work that she did and the amazing work that she did to help kind of get you to where you are. How does that come tenfold down the road where somebody goes, hey, somebody that's working today, 20 years down the road, they go, that person really mattered to me. So with that, we are gonna end that as your challenge. Think about somebody that really impacted you and start thinking about how and why did they impact you and what was it? What, like she said, was it was it because they know how to you know divide fractions so well, or is it because they they got to know you, they got uh a chance to support you in unique ways. Um, and it's probably gonna come back to that relationship piece, which what a wonderful place to end is. I'm sitting here with my dear friend and colleague Sarah Baird. So um I'm gonna end on that note. Um, thank you for taking the time. I know um I know when I talk to people about what I'm doing with this podcast and the people that I've approached, they're always um eager but also cautious because again, almost going back to the clip chart thing, is like this this does go out to the world, and it can be a little daunting to have this here microphone in front of us. But you did better than I would have even expected, Sarah. So um thank you for sitting down. It's been an hour and 30 minutes on. Whatever we did here work with our next episode in the coming weeks. Thank you.