Episode 3 – Jessica McKee Interviews Jon LeFevre: Why This Podcast, Why Now?

In this episode of The Honoring Educators Podcast, the tables are turned as Jessica McKee interviews Jon about the heart behind the podcast.

Before diving in, we take a moment to honor Jessica — a thoughtful educator, trusted colleague, and someone who brings authenticity and care into every conversation. Her presence reflects exactly what this podcast is all about: learning from the people around us.

This episode explores the “Genesis” of the podcast — the why behind it, the people who shaped it, and the vision moving forward.

In this episode:

• Jon’s background and journey into education
• Educators who made a lasting impact on his life
• Why this podcast was created — and why now
• What Jon does outside of work to recharge and find joy
• The vision for building a community centered around appreciation and connection
• Gratitude for those who inspired and supported this work
• What it means to truly recognize and honor others

Join the community

If you’d like to be part of the conversation, head over to Facebook and search for “Honoring Educators”, look for the Higgins Lake image, and click follow.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:04

All right, everybody. Welcome back to episode three of the Honoring Educators Podcast. Episode three with Jessica McKee. That rhymes for those of you keeping score at home. Today is going to be a pretty unique episode. I'm sitting here with my good friend and colleague Jessica McKee. She's been a pretty consistent thought partner for me as we kind of dove into the development of this podcast. And she's just somebody that I can rattle ideas off of, and she rattles them right back. Well, one idea got rattled that we've stuck with, and that is this. As listeners at home, you're probably maybe, maybe you don't care, but some of you may be saying, Who is this John LaFever fellow? Um, so Jessica and I had this idea to swap roles. So I am with Jessica today, and she is actually going to interview me. I have very little knowledge of what she's going to ask, so we're kind of shooting from the hip. So I'm kind of swapping places with my guest. I'm a little anxious because I'm not exactly sure what she's going to ask or how I'm going to answer it. Um, but we're going to have a good old time. So before I pass the mic over to her, just a little bit of an honoring section for her. Um, she is somebody that I would definitely be having on at some point in the future. Um, as a standard um guest on the show, where we'll go through the whole standard rigma role. But for today, as the interviewer, um I do want to have a few moments to just kind of talk about who she is and why she is an integral part of all of this. So I first met Jessica when I was working in Freeland. Um, she was a fifth grade teacher. And um, if I'm being very honest, I didn't interact a whole lot with her during that time. There were certain students and certain situations that I would end up in her environment, but she runs a tight ship. Um, and I we didn't have a ton of avowals coming out of that environment. So just the nature of the timing, uh, our paths just didn't cross a lot. But I saw her and her students coming up and down the hallway every day, just like every other teacher, and they were buttoned up. And um, so that was kind of my first impression of this as a teacher that has great classroom management skills. Um, she's always very collaborative and very fun to work with. Um, but when she switched over and took a position at SAG and ISD, she and I became much closer in respect of developing PDs together, which means now we're sitting in rooms together, kind of brainstorming and thinking about how are we going to impact these educators on this topic or how can we develop a lesson here? How can we, and she is so uh charismatic is probably a great word, but engaging. Um, the word that I tend to use when I talk about the ideal educator is engaging. Um some of my previous guests have talked about um, you know, being caring and uh things like that. My word is engaging, and the person I'm sitting with today is probably the most engaging person that I can think of. Like she's high energy, she's spunky, she's fun. She's also nervous about interviewing me today. So we'll see if that shines through. I think it will. Um, but she is truly a really great colleague. Um, and in this case, she's just been a wonderful thought partner for me. She's somebody that I can just sit and gab with for hours, it feels like. So she's the type of person that I said, you know what? Why don't we do something a little bit unique? We had this idea for her to interview me, and that's what we're gonna do. So I don't know exactly what we're gonna get into today, and I'm as nervous as you guys are about whatever's about to happen. Uh John LaFever shooting from the hip and a little off script is is a dangerous thing, but we're gonna get through it together. So without further ado, I'm gonna welcome to the world the nervous Jessica McKee. Hi, Jessica.

SPEAKER_00 3:56

Hi, John. How are you? I'm great. I actually am super nervous, which is weird because I've always wanted a microphone in front of my face. And I have for years been interrogating um my sister's boyfriends and all sorts of people. They call me the interrogator. So, questioning is not one thing that I've ever had a hard time doing. However, when I was preparing for this, I want um to make sure that I am doing my best work for you. So it was a little nerve-wracking at what questions to come up with. Of course, we talk all the time for hours and hours and hours, like you said, laughing and and um there's just endless conversation. But for some reason, when I thought about the microphone sitting in front of my face, I got a little like, ugh, what if I can't speak?

SPEAKER_02 4:43

What if you've already crossed that bridge? You're doing this fine.

SPEAKER_00 4:46

So bear with me, everybody. I'm gonna do my very best at my very first podcast.

SPEAKER_02 4:50

So let's rock and roll.

SPEAKER_00 4:52

All righty. So, John, you had mentioned that we have had conversations and we did do a ton of collaborating. Um, I have been wanting to do a podcast for a very long time. Mine hasn't necessarily gone down that education route. But when you came up with this idea, and um, you know, we would get sidetracked very easily when we would plan and stuff. But when you came up with this idea, one of the things that I was most excited about is your enthusiasm about celebrating educators and celebrating the good thing that people in the educational world do. And it's not just the educators, it's the ancillary staff, it's the you know, the janitors, it's the whole community that comes together to be there for students. And your passion behind that and your positivity, I guess, excited me um the most. So I'm super excited to kind of dig a little deeper into your world, not only in the education world, but your personal world a little bit. I also want them to know a little bit about your passion for this project and what motivated you to and inspired you to take action. Yeah. So if we can get started, let's do it. Uh, can you just kind of tell your listeners? I'm sure they've maybe heard a little bit about who John LaFever is, but kind of your tell us a little bit about yourself and your background in the education world. All right. Um, and then and then we'll kind of touch on some personal world stuff too, but just kind of your background.

SPEAKER_02 6:27

Okay, I'm gonna do really quick lily pads. Uh, born and raised in Saginaw Township. So I went to Hemeter Elementary long before it was a gifted and talented school, I can assure you of that. So fire up hornets. Um, and then I transitioned into the parochial world. I went to St. Thomas Aquinas, which is now Nivell Elementary, and had some amazing educators there and some great, you know, learning opportunities. Um, transitioned then to Nivell Catholic Central High School. Got into college and just kind of knew once I started taking some psychology courses, I was like fascinated by psychology, whether it's motivation or just kind of understanding the brain. But I didn't want to sit in a research lab and things like that. So I kind of said, boy, I really like the idea of working with kids. My mom was an educator, as that everybody knows if you've listened to you know her episode. So the educational piece kind of runs through my blood. And it's now time to make a decision. Like if you if you get a bachelor's degree in psychology, more often than not, you're gonna have to get an advanced degree of some sort, graduate school. So I opted and I said I like psychology, but I also want to work in a school. So school psychology made sense. I went off to Andrews University.

SPEAKER_00 7:38

Okay, so I don't mean to start to interrupt you, but do you did there was there no chance at all that the the teacher title popped into your head? It was always a different focus.

SPEAKER_02 7:48

And I mean this very sincerely like I love supporting teachers, but being a teacher, mm-mm.

SPEAKER_01 7:55

No, okay.

SPEAKER_02 7:56

Like one or two kids at a time. Um, for short burst, I can handle a class. Yesterday I sat in front of 55th graders probably for 15 minutes and had a really nice conversation. Um, but both teachers were in the room and we did a great job. But you know, I'm sweating during that, like all those eyes on me, and you know, it's a it's a whole different world. So no, okay, teaching is not going to be in my wheelhouse, but I'm so thrilled to work with so many amazing teachers. Um, but they do what they do and I do what I do.

SPEAKER_00 8:24

Okay, so it was psychology from the get.

SPEAKER_02 8:26

Yeah, and I'm I was just very interested in all of all of that. Um, so um I I graduated from Saginaw Valley State University um with a psychology degree, and then said I got to go off to school. So I went to Andrews University for a few years for those that are unfamiliar with Andrews. It's a small Seventh-day Adventist University down in Barrion Springs, Michigan, way, you know, kind of down by South Bend, Indiana, essentially, and had some really great experiences there, and then came back and started working at the Saginaw IST. I kind of mentioned that in my mom's episode. And, you know, um, for those that are familiar with special ed and the you know, Saginaw area, Bill Hartle's name comes to mind. Well, I knew Bill previously through my mom's work. So when I graduated from school, I you know approached Bill and said, Hey, I'm ready to start working if you need a school psychologist on staff, and it kind of went from there. And next thing you know, I'm working in education and been there ever since.

SPEAKER_00 9:20

So, how many years were you with the ISD then, I guess, prior to uh 2009, 2010, somewhere in there.

SPEAKER_02 9:27

So 15, 16 years at Sagan ISD. And so, you know, recently I I made a switch and now I'm a St. Charles Bulldog. Um I had such a wonderful opportunity um to grow and develop at Sagan ISD, and I absolutely adore that organization and the people that are there. Um, but I I was in a position where I just felt like I wasn't working with students as much, and I just needed that that opportunity to get back to most of the roots, if you will, and you know, be part of that little close-knit community. And I've got that in spades. Um, I I adore the the current work that I'm doing. It's hard, it's long days, it's a lot of a lot of stuff that I'm learning and and developing new skills and meeting new people and building new relationships. But it it's what I feel for some reason. I felt like I needed to make a switch and it's it's been great. So 15, 16 years that's I can ISV as a school psychologist, I transitioned into a behavior support consultant. Um, but now this year I've I've become a what they call a homeschool coordinator, home dash school. I'm not I'm not dealing with students that are on homeschool, but that commit that connection between home and school and and things like that at St. Charles, that at St. Charles Elementary. So I'm surrounded by 325 students, basically preschool through sixth grade every day, and I absolutely love it.

SPEAKER_00 10:48

Okay. So with that all in mind, do you mind if we kind of go back to um your personal education and talk about has there been a specific teacher or a mentor, or maybe you have a few um teachers that have left lasting impact on you and you growing up and you yeah, it's funny because I've been thinking about this more because when I interview people, I hear these amazing stories of the people that kind of nudged them or inspired them or supported them in unique ways.

SPEAKER_02 11:25

And I kind of been reflecting back, and I can certainly name a few. So I'll I'll start um at St. Thomas, I had a teacher, and there's gonna be a bit of a theme here. I was very into sports. So anytime I could have a teacher that was also a coach, that meant a lot to me. Um, so anybody that I went to school with back in the day at St. Thomas, fire up friars, um, Mr. MacInerney, that's a name that a lot of people, if if my friends that aren't in education listen to this, they'll go, I know Mr. Mack. Mr. Mack was awesome. Um, just just a charismatic. Um I don't know, it's hard to describe Mr. Mack, but he was a teacher during the day. He was a coach after school, but he was always like a friend and a support. And he was he was goofy and he he just had fun with students and he had all the one-liners. And I think back of those days, and Mr. Mack always pops into my brain.

SPEAKER_00 12:22

So, what grade levels? Mr.

SPEAKER_02 12:24

Mack would have been with us in middle school, late middle school, basically sixth, seventh, and eighth grade. And okay, you know, those are pretty formative years to have like an adult male figure. Um, my dad was coaching everything. But you know, when you're at school, you better be buttoned up with Mr. Matt because you're gonna run after practice if you give him a hard time during the day.

SPEAKER_00 12:42

So now, so I didn't hear you say anything about what you were learning in his class. It seems more of the connection and the reflection seems to be on that relationship that you had with him or that connection that you you were drawn to versus I don't even know what he taught. Like that net that did not come out. You know, it's so funny that you said that.

SPEAKER_02 13:00

And this, so this is this is the fun part of this podcast is she and I are now just gonna have a moment. When I interviewed Sarah the other day, she said, she goes, When you think about the people that really inspired you, I bet you it's not because they knew how to add and subtract fractions really well and could teach that lesson. It's usually a connection, yeah. And so Mr. Mack was definitely somebody that you just you just can't help but love the guy. Now, what did he teach? He taught, I I remember very specifically science course. Okay. Yeah, he was definitely my science teacher. He may have taught other things, but yeah. Um so um, and then you know, I this name is just popping into my brain now, but it should have popped in earlier. But Mr. Speaker was our gym teacher at St. Thomas, and he was the you know, the epitome of just a great educator. He supported kids on and off the court, um, you know, in and out of the building. You still see him around the community. I've seen him on golf courses, and it's just so it's so enjoyable now to be an adult and an educator myself to look back and go, man, those those people, you know, nobody's getting rich coaching football after practice or or doing these things. So it's like you know that it came from a space of of caring and and wanting to, you know, better their students. So when I think of like my middle school elementary years, those two names come to mind. And I good lord, I'm gonna forget so many names or not mentioned names that absolutely deserve to be mentioned, but um one or two other names up at the high school level, their brothers, the Simonowski brothers. Um Big Stim and Little Sim, we called them. And again, the Nivelle crowd will absolutely know who I'm talking about. Oh man, how do I even get into this? Um, Littleson was maybe the the epitome of classroom management to me looking back. You know, I didn't know what classroom management was at that time. I just knew that when you went in Little Sim's room, you sat there and you did what he asked you to do, not because he intimidated you, just because that's that was it. That's the expectation in the class. He was a math teacher, and I'm not great at math, so that was hard for me. But he just he was patient and he was kind, but again, he was also my basketball coach. Okay, so it's like that that connection. So Little Sim for sure. Um, and I still see Little Sim around and just Dave is his name. I shouldn't be calling Little Sim, but that's what we knew him as. So um, so I still see Dave around. And then um, you know, we lost his brother, uh Big Sim Bob, three years ago. Okay, and uh I remember when that news broke, I put a big thing on Facebook. And if for anybody that knows me personally, Facebook is just kind of my sounding board. I like to throw ideas out there, share stories. That's probably part of this whole podcast to begin with. But when Big Sim passed away, it really hit me. Um he was a football coach, so you saw this side of him on the football field, this old grizzled guy with this kind of a raspy voice and the the most unique personality of any teacher I've ever had. I mean, I could go on and on about just stories about this guy. But as I've gotten older and I've worked with, you know, complex and challenging kids, Big Sim was the one in the building that tended to get the riff raft. And if you're listening to this and we share time in Big Sim's class, you know what I'm talking about. Um, but I mean this very sincerely is he was there for every kid. And he and he showed that he loved you by kind of ragging on you and kind of needling you.

SPEAKER_00 16:32

And but if you knew Sim, you knew that that's his way of saying in a loving way to build that relationship versus break breaking.

SPEAKER_02 16:40

It was so it was such a unique way that he approached students. So those two teachers, um, and there were so many at NFL, I could go on and on. Um, but those two, again, probably because they're coaches, they really, really stand out to me.

SPEAKER_00 16:54

How do you think they gained that respect from the students? Like you said, they they knew that when when you came into class, you the students knew that you sat down and you did what you were supposed to do.

SPEAKER_02 17:05

Littleson, Little Sim had that that classroom management style. His older brother Big Sim had a very different classroom management style. So two different very different uh classroom management styles. Uh both had their uh you know impact, but um yeah, it just he just knew.

SPEAKER_00 17:22

Do you think it would go back to the relationship building and the respect that they gained by building those relationships as students?

SPEAKER_02 17:30

Yeah, absolutely. Again, they the relationships were formed and they just took on a different approach. You know, again, you know, one was very kind of calm and mild-mannered and a little softer spoken, and the other one is a little uh gruugher, a little more rough around the edges. But that's what I'm trying to say about Big Sim is he connected with kids that needed that. And I've had real conversations with some of my friends that I went to school with, and they're like, you know, not everybody that we went to school with came from a lot, or we, you know, some of us had different things going on, and I swear Sim just he could sense that and he just he'd come alongside of you and support you, but he just did it in such a unique way that um you just you just knew you you you knew he loved you, but you could have so much fun with him. And we saw him. I'm gonna tell this story. This is a real story. Shout out to Lennon Jerry's in Saginaw. If you're familiar with Lennon Jerry's, it's closed now, but we were there the night before Thanksgiving. And if you know the night before Thanksgiving bar, bar situation, it was it was packed, and it was a ton of Neval kids in there. And I'll never forget this. This is a real story. The doors swing open, and it was almost like this light was like behind this figure. So you see that the shadowy figure. And if anybody knows Sim, he walked in a very and in comes Big Sim to Lennon Jerry's, and the impl the place imploded. People went absolutely crazy. Here is our former teacher who everybody just adores. And he walks into the bar the night before Thanksgiving at like a hot spot in Sagan. Right. That man did not buy a drink all night long. I mean, we celebrated him, and I only tell that story because this podcast, for me, a lot of it is it's gonna sound crazy or a little corny maybe, but like Big Sim is a big part of this podcast. And maybe not as much him per se, but what he represents is Big Sim passed away. And I never had a chance to tell him what I what I want to sing to him. And I think back to that night when he walked into that bar and I said, I know he knows he was loved. So whether we had a chance to have a podcast and for me to tell Big Sim how much he meant to kids and how much we loved him, I look back at that moment and I go, When he comes strolling through that door, oh he felt it. He heard it, he felt it.

SPEAKER_00 19:57

How do you think he came there knowing that he would run into? I mean, it couldn't have been his hot spot. But they probably was hot spots. I don't know. Yeah, you know, I mean, maybe, but that's why maybe it was so wild.

SPEAKER_02 20:10

Like I'd never seen Sim at a bar, and I frequented a few of them back in the day. Um, but I just know that that night he had to have felt how much he mattered. And um, but but truly, this part of this podcast spun out of the fact that, and I said this openly to people, so I don't mind saying it on on air. I'll be damned. It's the first time I've sworn on podcasts. First time. Sarah Baird usually tallies when I swear. Will it be the last? It probably will not, but I'll be damned if I continue to let really great educators pass away without hearing how they impacted people. And that's part of this. So it's why when I did my Genesis episode, um, I said, if you hear your name on this podcast, I'm sorry. And if you don't want to hear your name on this podcast, let me know.

SPEAKER_00 20:57

Right.

SPEAKER_02 20:58

But I'll be damned if we lose good people and we don't have the ability to say what we need to say to them while they're still around. And when Big Stim passed away, I felt really bad that I never had a chance because I got to know Big Stim outside of school. Once I became an adult a little bit, I'd see him around and we'd talk and have a great conversation. But I never pulled him aside and said, you know, I'm an educator now, and I really value the work that you put in and the support you gave your kids and the way you just went about building these relationships. Um, I never had that chance to do that, and it it did not sit right with me when he passed away. So he's in a weird way a reason why I'm doing this.

SPEAKER_00 21:35

I think you have a good point there. My sister and my mom and I sat around and we were talking about all of our teachers, you know, growing up. And and because as a teacher, I often wonder I'm like, will my students even remember me when I'm, you know, when they're older? Or you know, you don't know the impact that you have on students, good or bad, but um we have big impact. And so we sat around talking about favorite teachers. I also had a teacher that passed. Away too, and I said the exact same thing. I'm like, you know, I wish I just would have gone to him and told him how much fun we had with him, and and and it was all fun. I mean, I know a subject he taught as well, but it was the fun and the relationship and the the jokes, and he was a prankster, and just how fun he made my years in middle school. And I wasn't the only one that thought that. My sister had the same, the same feeling and the same, you know, similar stories about him. And and we went and we talked to other friends, and it was the same thing, right? He always comes up in conversation because he was that teacher. But did kids or students go back and and actually tell him that no, you know?

SPEAKER_02 22:38

You've asked a few questions already. And again, for the listeners at home, this is not scripted, I assure you, but you have touched on a couple of lily pads that Sarah talked about in her episode. It'll be coming out tomorrow morning. So for those that are listening, Sarah's episode has not come out yet, but I've listened to it like three times because I just thought the world of what she said, and you know, but she talked about that at the end. She her episode's coming out before this one, so I'll just say she's she's got a challenge for people, like and her challenge is this. So, Sarah, I'm gonna reiterate your challenge. When you think about the teachers that most impacted you, she wants to to kind of say, why? But on top of that, she wants to flip it and say, How do we emulate some of those things so that 20 years from now, when students get asked about who impacted them, yes, how how are we practicing our skills day in and day out to make it so that in 20 years, maybe a kid? We don't have to be a champion for all kids, but we have to be a champion. There's gotta be some out there that just we gravitate towards or they gravitate towards us. And how do we make an impact on some of those kids that in the future somebody's gonna say to some little guy that I go to school with or that goes to my school right now, hey, who really impacted you? And I really took that to heart when Sarah said that is how do I show up day in and day out and engage with students and support students? And um, how do I do that in a way that maybe someday some kid will go, that Mr. LaFever or that Mrs. McKee or that Sarah Baird was that person for me.

SPEAKER_00 24:18

So that's reminding ourselves too that we we have to make a conscious choice in because you know we know the education world can be wonderful at times and it can be challenging at times, right? So thinking about impact and wanting to be that positive impact versus a student's not so positive impact, right? Because they'll remember both. Oh, yeah. You can be remembered for both, right? So being aware of how we're interacting with students and the relationships we're building, are they positive or are they maybe on the other end? And then just making sure we're making those shifts to stay on that positive impact, even when it's challenging, because we know there's challenging situations, but how can we how can we try to be that person that still has that positive impact?

SPEAKER_02 25:12

So I want to mention one more name. And the only reason I'm gonna mention this is years ago, and if I said 10 years ago, maybe I was sitting at work one day and I said, you know what, why not? And I shout out to Dr. Coffin at Andrews University. Um, he was a professor of mine in grad school, and that's a time when you are stressed, you got a lot of work, you're in an unfamiliar place. And this guy was the kindest, most supportive, but you got a lot out of his classes. You learned with Dr. Coffin in ways that I've never learned before. But he was incredible for me. Just maybe, you know, maybe other professors for other people. But for me, I needed Dr. Coffin at that time. He was just like this settling, calm, but very intelligent. You knew you were gonna learn a lot. Um, but I took time, and maybe this is a challenge to other people, almost kind of reflecting on Sarah and her comments and something that we're talking about now of like how do you let people know? Right. And there was something inside of me, I don't know, maybe 10 years ago. And if he ever hears this, maybe he'll I can probably pull up the email. But I just took a few minutes and I shot him an email and I said that I don't know if he'll remember me, but I you know, I went and he did. But I just said, I really appreciate the way you you just did everything. You know, you're just a great, you know, I just want to say hi, hello, I'm I'm doing good. And part of that is because of what you helped me with. Um, so maybe that's my challenge. I'm gonna say it at the beginning of this episode, or maybe the middle, I guess, depending on how long this goes. But if you have a chance to whether, and maybe that's part of my Facebook community that I'm trying to build, is just giving people an outlet to say, this person mattered. This person really impacted me. Because again, I'll be damned if people don't get an opportunity to hear their name and to let them know that they mattered, and maybe they're gone. Right. And for but for their family to sit there and go, man, mom worked so hard, but I never knew what she did or the impact she had. But all of a sudden, now here we are on a podcast, and people are talking about this person's name, or I logged onto a Facebook page because somebody tagged me on something, and they're talking about my mom or my dad or my relative that was an educator, and people are talking about how impactful they were. I am weird, I know that, but I think that's cool.

SPEAKER_00 27:28

And I think that's I think that is I think that matters too, and I like that you're putting it out there as a challenge because I have to say, as an educator over the years, you know, I have students that have reached out through emails that have shared when I had them in school, they were, you know, learning how to play the violin. And years later, I get these videos of them actually playing the violin. And I'm like, they're still, you know, just the fact that they're still thinking to send me the clips of them and their progress and or pieces of writing that they've created and want me to edit it for them, or just little notes, like when they first got their first emails, a few of them would send me emails because they were just getting their first emails in high school, you know, and they're like, hi, Miss McKee. I don't know if you remember me, but that's cool. And so those little bits, and like you said, even if the person isn't still around for their family to see them through that that different lens, because they may see them as mom or dad or or whatever coach or whatever, but they don't see them through the eyes of their students, you know what I mean. So I think that's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_02 28:37

Yeah, I totally agree.

SPEAKER_00 28:38

So yeah. So with that being said, is there anybody that you would like to to honor on here today that made the biggest impact or an impact in your in your educational experience?

SPEAKER_02 28:55

I think I'll leave it with with those that I mentioned here. And like I said, there's so many more, but the the one that the one that needed to be honored got honored with episode one. Um that was why I wasn't sure if she'd want to come on. Um, but when she said she would, and I had that chance, and I could have talked for hours and hours about the impact that she made on students and and staff and me as a you know an emerging educator. Um, she's the one that needs to be honored, and she's already been honored. And if she's listening to this episode and she goes, Dear Lord, stop the honoring. I don't want any more attention on me. Mom, I'll throw you a bone here. I'll stop talking about you, but I love it.

SPEAKER_00 29:31

If she's anything like me, she'd probably cry. Yeah. I'd be like, Oh, that's my baby.

SPEAKER_02 29:36

Maybe, maybe.

SPEAKER_00 29:37

I would be. I'm sure she'll feel the same. Um, okay, so I kind of wanted to dive into a little bit. I know we kind of hit hit a few things, but I want to dive in a little bit into kind of per your professional perspective. So what your professional journey has looked like, I guess, leading up to this podcast. And then kind of in a little bit, I want to dive into um, you know, you we'll dive into some other topics, but just what kind of led you to this podcast? I know you've sort of touched on it a little bit. Um, I know you've talked about, you know, there being lots of educators that you don't feel maybe get get noticed, but can you just tell me a little bit more on what kind of drove you to creating the podcast? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:30

And I hope I don't forget any core pieces, but this is like I think in I think in like visual images all the time, like I'm Temple Grand or something. But like there's so many puzzle puzzle pieces that go together to make what I think I'm trying to create here. We'll see if it turns into anything. And if it doesn't, that's okay too. But people are gonna know if they matter to me. Um, and that's why when I have my guest on, why when I do that honoring section, yes, that's my way of saying, I don't know that I don't care where you went to school or what your credentials are. I think it matters, but I want to tell people what I've seen in them, yeah, what I've seen you do specifically. So when I'm talking about you, that's an image I have is watching you and your flock come down the hallway and they're all buttoned up. And it's like, well, there's a great educator. I mean, look at these kids, they haven't, you know, but they're having fun. But that's kind of part of it, is like that's one puzzle piece is just, you know, recognizing great work when you see it. Um, it but I'm a believer in you gotta know it's like just like a student, you know, a student can meet an expectation or fail to meet an expectation. And when they meet an expectation, I want to say that is that's it right there. That's the direction I want you to go. And right or wrong, what I view as just exceptional educators, I want to shine a light on that. I want people to go, I can learn from that, I can pull something from that conversation. Um, so a big part of this is just going, I have spent, you know, coming up on 20 years now, because I was doing observations in classrooms. Uh, I'm thinking of somebody like Mary Wagner at Carleton Elementary. I'm showing up just doing observations while I'm like thinking about going to grad school. And here's this phenomenal educator named Mary Wagner, and I'm just like soaking it all in, going, I don't I don't even know. I don't even know what I'm looking at here, but this is really good. Like, this is wild how good she is as a teacher. Um, so it's like these these spots that I've landed, I've seen just such an amazing work. But the the beauty is, and that's why it's called the Honoring Educators Podcast, not the honoring teachers, is I have worked with custodians who play a pivotal role in meeting a kid's needs. When you walk into a school building and the first person you see sitting at the desk, and I could, if I started talking about all the secretaries that I've worked with over the years, like I'll never stop. I know, I they are everywhere. I mean, uh, you know, shout out to like Teresa Maychew at Zagena ISD and my buddy Holly Petty and Julie Bank and Pam Dahmer at Freeland Learning Center. And um I I mean, I could go on and on. Um, Julie Couture at Freeland Elementary, um, Roxanne Chenowith at Bridgeport, like these people matter when you walk through the door and you that's the first person you see, and they're supporting families, they got a smile on their face, they change the entire vibe of a building. Yes, and then you go into a classroom and there's this amazing teacher there, but then you see this amazing paraprofessional sitting beside a student. Yes, and that the only reason that room might be humming in that moment in a good way is because that paras got a couple things on lockdown. 100 shout out to the paras.

SPEAKER_00 33:49

Yes, 100%.

SPEAKER_02 33:51

There are too many to even start naming.

SPEAKER_00 33:53

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 33:53

Um, and I mean this, like every one of those matter. Bus drivers, like when I've done PD in the past, I'm going the first kid that a first person a kid sees in the morning is the bus driver, and the last person a kid sees in the afternoon could be a bus driver. And if that's a gruff sit down and you know, close your mouth for the next 30 minutes, that's gonna make you feel some type of way. But when you walk on and they give you a high five and they can kind of maybe, you know, mentor you a little bit or give you some words of encouragement, and when you're getting off the bus, they give you another high five, and hey, buddy, have a great night. Like that matters, all of that matters. So that's a big part of this podcast. That's part of what inspired me is like just taking all of these places that I've been and people I've worked with and things that I've seen and go, when it's done well, it all matters, and they all play a role here. Um, so that's a big part of it. And then, you know, another part of this, and I don't know how else to describe it, I don't want this to be a PD podcast. But if we can't learn from sitting, if you if you can listen to Sarah Baird's episode that'll be coming out tomorrow morning and not learn something, shame on you because it is so rich. Now, again, I'm a nerd, I'm a behavior nerd. So when Sarah's getting nerdy and talking about deep behavioral stuff, you're talking my language. I can talk shout. If I'm sitting in an engineering class and somebody wants to talk about engineering, I'm lost. So if you're if you're not into education, this may not be the podcast for you, and that's okay. But if you are an educator, I want you to be able to sit and listen and learn from the people that I just think the world of and that have taught me a lot. Um, so there's almost like a PD component to this. Um, I'm thinking about like our real PD that we did last year, which Jessica and I have worked so hard.

SPEAKER_00 35:45

I think we did two years of that.

SPEAKER_02 35:47

Yeah, we did a couple years that Sagan ISD doing this thing called real PD, reaching and engaging all learners. In theory, it's this beautiful thing. Um, but I remember um the second time I'm gonna shout out Kate Kawicki. Um shout her out in a different episode, but there's um there's this idea that people are learning by listening. People are absolutely learning by listening. Um, and we go through some of these PD opportunities, and it's like you look around the room and you go, There's only 10 or 15 people here, and this is like a masterclass that somebody's putting on. And I'm going, How is it that only 10 or 15 people are hearing this? So I remember last year we did a PD with Kate, and she's talking about all these incredible OT strategies, and then Emily Garland House are talking. All these people are are sharing these things that I'm going, I'm looking around the room, I'm going, How is there only 13 people? This should be a sold-out venue. But the reality of education, and I see it now because I went to local school districts. It's hard to send people the PD. We got things going in these buildings that it's hard to be free.

SPEAKER_00 36:55

It's hard to get subs, it's hard to get. I think um people would take the PDs. I know I was always hungry for PDs, but I could never, they couldn't either afford the subs, or we, you know, we're short subs. You can't get a sub. You know, they we went through that whole phase of things. Um, so I think that it would be great if people can listen to this podcast and also take away some of that that professional learning gets a bigger platform. You can hit more, hit more educators, hit more people as a whole.

SPEAKER_02 37:28

And that's kind of the point, is I, you know, I know that, you know, if we're talking strict behavior stuff, like there's somebody that might not, you know, they're maybe a a reading interventionist or something, and maybe they're going to have, you know, behavior is not my thing, but there's there should be an episode for everybody. But the last thing I'll say about this is, you know, it's hard, it's hard to staff sometimes. Like, you know, we're short pairs, we're short teachers, we're short, yeah. You know, it's hard to find an administrator. And I said this again in Sarah's episode, but if all we do is talk about the complexities and the problems and the challenges, and oh, this is a difficult place to work, those are the realities, but we already know that. So I kind of say, we already know that. Let's give people an opportunity to learn about niche areas. So when I have an OT on, I want them to be able to say, this is what OTs do in schools. So it's one of the recurring questions is why should somebody entertain the idea of getting into the world of education, but specifically this role? So I'm thinking of OTs or speech. Maybe an OT or a speech person in a hospital setting or a clinical setting, or a psychologist, or a psychologist. But why would why should you choose to be in a school? Because I I want them all. If you're a good educator, if you're engaging, if you're caring, you're compassionate, come work in our schools. So to me, part of this podcast is to try to shine a light on very specific roles. And that's why, you know, when I talk about paras, I want great paras because I've worked with so many, and I currently work with a whole bunch of great ones too. I want those people to be able to come on and say, A, our work matters, and B, here's the vibe of what we do day in and day out. And if that sounds like something that you might be interested in, or you're listening and you go, God, my sister would be great at that. Good, tell her to apply. And that's so some of this is almost just trying to help fill that pipeline of staff members because we here are going to be positive and we're gonna talk about again, we know the challenges, we know, we know nobody gets paid enough. We don't get celebrated enough, but we also don't always know what it is that these people do and why it matters. So that's that's a part of it. There's probably other reasons why I'm doing this podcast, but that's that's I I I just want community. I I love community, I like building a group and having people to to bounce ideas off of and stuff. So that's kind of the heart of it.

unknown 39:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 39:54

Do you mind if I switch gears just a little bit? Okay, I know I have I have like 30 questions I could ask tonight, but um, I know we're we're limited. We'd sit on here for four hours, you know. So um I'm gonna kind of dip into your personal world a little bit outside of the educational world that you live in. And I guess if I wanted to kind of let listeners know a little bit more about you. So if you were to just give us kind of an idea, what does John like to do outside of work um to kind of relax and recharge and um just bring joy to your life? That's what are some of the things that you you like to do?

SPEAKER_02 40:43

That's a great question because I do have things. Um, and you'll see even on like my podcast or my my Facebook page, you know, I talk about like self-care Saturdays. Because again, how do we even if it's a little thing, how do you do something on a weekend if you get a few minutes? Yesterday was 70 degrees, go take a walk or you know, whatever. But I take those things seriously. It might just be something small, but how do you do something that fills your bucket and makes you feel good? Um, so for me, my family, we we have a cabin up at Higgins Lake, and it is when I say my happy place, it is the epitome of my happy place. Um, my wife and kids have talked to me about this podcast, and they, you know, they've given me permission to kind of allude to them. So, you know, on Friday afternoons when it's weekend to go up to the lake, my wife gets out of work and we jump in the truck and we hit uh hit the expressway and we're up at Higgins in an hour and 15 minutes. And um shout out to Shelly Helmrick and her daughter Anna. They picked out the fact that it was a Higgins Lake, a very iconic picture of Higgins Lake uh in my podcast imagery. Yeah, because that's my happy place. So that's you know, everything has its place, and that that picture is there because it it just makes me feel happy. And uh so there's always a story behind everything, but that that is my happy place. So we go up there and we just you know it might be a busy weekend where we got a bunch of family, and it might be a low-key weekend where we don't. Um, if anybody that knows me very well knows that I will wear out a pair of rubber boobs faster than just about anybody I know because I will explore every square foot of state land up in the uh Higgins Lake area that's that's available. Um, I am an avid outdoorsman. I could hunt and fish and do all that stuff all day long. And uh so that's that's just one of those things on self-care Saturdays. You are going to see pictures of me spending time in the woods. There's something about all week long, it's busy, busy, busy. Yes. And when I take my truck and I get into spots, my my truck's got scrape marks all over it. And people are like, my guy doesn't take care of his truck. I actually do, but I just drive into some gnarly spots, and um, you know, my kids are uh a huge part of the life. Um, our son still kind of lives with us, but he's finishing up at Sagano Valley State. And our daughter uh recently graduated from Michigan State yesterday. I had to wear a Michigan shirt at work because I made a little side bet for the Michigan, Michigan State game. So halfway through the day, my daughter sees this picture on Facebook and she's like, What is going on? And I said, Girl, I had to wear it and post it too. Yeah, well, somebody else posted it. Um so I just, you know, with with Amy and the kids, uh, we have a ball. My my folks are still around and my brother, and you know, I have I have a pretty tight group. Like, I don't as I get older, my network has gotten smaller. I still keep in touch with a lot of people, but I'm a homebody. I am that's me. I I I could, you know, I just I'm I'm a homebody. And um, so whether I'm at home or the cabin, I love to golf. Um, but now I have I have these like creative itches that I get. Um, and this podcast represents a big one that I've had for multiple years, as you know.

SPEAKER_01 43:48

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 43:48

So it's like this, even like it's work and it takes time, but it fills the bucket.

SPEAKER_00 43:53

So can we um we kind of dove into a little bit um The why behind the podcast. So I won't really dig much more into that. But if we could dig a little bit into your vision um looking forward and where you um want to go with the podcast, or we could take the the avenue of what can listeners expect to hear. I think you've already probably touched on that in some of your other episodes. Um so I guess what's your vision like long term? Do you see this growing into you know I don't, or what are your home sites? I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 44:38

I don't well, you know, I talked about it in my episode of Sarah's. Like I've had a little taste of like kind of going viral. I am not searching for going viral with this thing. I promise you that. Um, now if the community grows, that's okay. But like this whole going viral, like I'm not searching that out. I promise you. I'm like I said, I'm a homebody. When I put my phone down at night, I don't need it going crazy.

SPEAKER_00 45:01

Kind of more of a passion pride.

SPEAKER_02 45:03

Yeah, that's not what this is about. This is about celebrating the people that have impacted me. And if along the way, that should, I hope it fills the bucket of other people and makes other people go, you know what? That's nice to hear people taking time out of their day to say our work really does matter. Um, my vision for the future, I have no idea. I record hour and a half long conversations about education. I don't know if that's like a such a small niche of people that are interested in listening to people talk about education for an hour and a half, or if there's enough educators and people out there that want to have positive uplifting stories that they're gonna tune in every week. I have no idea. I just know that it feels good to me and I it I think it's gonna matter to the people that I I honor and I recognize. Um, but we'll see, you know.

SPEAKER_00 45:51

Just think of the time that you get with these people as well. So, like if you think about the podcast as a whole, think of all the amazing conversations and connections that you'll have with people just sitting down and you'll have them recorded for forever, right? To sit back and listen to like how cool is that.

SPEAKER_02 46:11

Is like to have the ability to capture those moments, those it's almost like a journal or a time capsule.

SPEAKER_00 46:18

A time capsule, yeah. It's like a a way of keeping, I mean, you get to hear those voices and you get to hear those stories again and again. So very, very cool. Um, my other question that I kind of want to touch on is um, is there anybody that you would like to thank or give a shout-out to for inspiring you to get this going?

SPEAKER_02 46:41

Or that's you know, um gotten you to this point, or yeah, I mean, I I guess I'm thinking more along the lines of what I'm working on right now is you know, we have, and she's gonna laugh when I say this, but we have our little friend group at work, and I have lots of friend groups, but this one has been very active with the podcast. So the last few years when I was at Sagan ISD, our little friend group, we call ourselves the debriefers. It's like the bears, but we're debriefers. Um, you know, after work, you you get together and you debrief. How did the day go? How did you know? And after the end of a long week, you get together and go, Oh boy, how did how did we survive that week? You know, but it's the people that you you lean on and you you get close with. And um, the last couple years that stagnant ISD, I'm you know, Jessica and Stacy and Mark and Emily and Ashley, um, that's been a group that's been huge for this, as you know, in different ways, um, bouncing ideas and hey, can you have a few minutes? Can I throw this idea across your bow? Um, you know, I'm thinking of like Stacey. I had her kind of proofread some things and listen to stuff before I ever released it. And the reason I picked her is because she's she's gonna be honest with me, she's a good friend of Stacey Darrow. And she's like, You sound a little this or you sound a little that. It doesn't sound like John, right? So you gotta be yourself. So I re-record it, you know. And you know, I'm sitting here uh recording on a mic, and you know, I'm thinking of my buddy Mark Lyons. For anybody that knows my buddy Mark, like, what an amazing educator. I'm gonna use Mark as an example in a second. Okay. He's like, no, you can find way more, you know, I don't know the right word, you know, I don't know what word he used, but when you run out of like really inspiring educators, let me know, and I'll come on. And I'm like, Mark, you're inspiring, brother. Um, he's inspiring in so many ways. Like, we have a PD this Friday at work, and Mark's gonna come in there. And I like to think that all those teachers are gonna walk away with new tools and resources. Um, but he's a tech guy, he's this is his jam, and he's taking time out of his life, and he's got a busy one to help me. He just told me I couldn't believe there were 83 edits that were needed for Sarah's episode, but little glitches in audio or you know, and he sits there and he helps me out of his own time to help put some of this stuff together. And I can't thank him and my other you know groups uh enough of taking the time to just you know, it would have been very easy for anybody to go, oh John wants to start a podcast, you know, right? But everybody that I've talked to, maybe you're gassing the up, but you're just like, no, do it because I think you guys all know me well enough to know he's a different dude, like that's his jam, and let him go. And I'm just kind of taking this weird leap of faith of putting myself in a very uncomfortable situation because, like I said, this whole if anybody that knows me thinks that I'm doing this to gain popularity or go viral, I can assure you.

SPEAKER_00 49:40

I can assure you, I'm popular enough. No, I'm just kidding.

SPEAKER_02 49:44

But no, I that's not my thing. I just there's something about our work, and I just need to let the people know that it matters and to to in some way make an impact in education. Um, like I just didn't feel like I had the ability at the way I was operating to make the impact that I felt like I could make. Right. And maybe whether it's through storytelling or just getting to know so many people in these weird ways, you know, you work so closely with people that you just you get to know them so well that you go, God dang, you know, we're gonna somehow make an impact together. And uh that's what we're gonna try to do somehow, some way. Jessica's laughing. We got background noise in our recording studio, and she's about to lose it. Oh, okay. I don't hear anything on my headphones if it makes me feel anything. Okay, so if you're listening at home and you hear a little noise, just know that life is happening around us here. So we're good.

SPEAKER_00 50:50

Oh all right. Um, I do want to also touch on um, I don't know how many. I know we don't have a ton ton of time left.

SPEAKER_02 50:59

Yeah, we're we're at about 50 minutes.

SPEAKER_00 51:01

Okay, because I know that we could we could um sit here for hours and do this, but I guess um I kind of want to know just to kind of wrap things up a little bit. Um my number one question would be, or my ending question. If one educator listens to this podcast and feels seen or appreciated, what would that mean to you?

SPEAKER_02 51:28

I mean, that's why we're doing it. And it's why I I take it so seriously. If you're listening to this, I'm thinking of like my friend Dawn Defoe right now. I reached out to Dawn. I thought my mom was gonna use Dawn's name on the podcast because in our kind of prep work, she gushed about Dawn. For some reason, the name just didn't come out. Right. But I'm like texting people behind the scenes. I'm like, hey, if if you hear your name on a podcast, are you gonna freak out? And everybody I've talked to is like, no, like I know you and I know the spirit that you have. And if if you hear your name on a podcast, it's gonna be in a positive light. And I want people to know that, but it gives me severe anxiety to think that I could in some way offend somebody by letting them hear their name or if they're listening and they're like, Oh my god, I don't want that light shined on me. Um, so that's why I literally take so much time in that Genesis episode to say, if you hear your name, those just know that it's my way of saying thank you. Yeah. So when you say, like, if one person hears this podcast, um, like I've already used the name of 20 people here because I'm a storyteller. When I get going, like I said, I'm shooting from the hip right now. You're asking me questions, and I don't even know what's going to come out of my mouth next.

SPEAKER_00 52:39

Right. And well, you don't know what I'm going to ask you out there.

SPEAKER_02 52:42

Well, I don't know what you're gonna ask me, but I, you know, I've drank three large coffees and a coke on the way here. Like I'm I've got a lot of caffeine in the tank right now, and I'm just fireballing these answers. But I'm I'm I'm dropping names and I'm reliving stories and talking about people that actually matter. So if you hear your name, if if if you hear this podcast and you go, you know, that's all good to have somebody shout out my name, awesome. If it gives you the kind of anxiety that I have, then I'm so sorry. But like I just want I want people to feel heard, I want somebody to go. Wow, I can't believe somebody remembered that. Or again, I keep going back to it, I don't know how else to say it, but our work matters. Yeah, and I just I've I've been so impacted by people in ways that they wouldn't even know or feel or think about or reflect on that I'm like again, I I go back to it. Like it mattered so much to me that I created a podcast and I'm gonna talk about you at some point, right? And I again I don't know how it's to say thank you to people. What am I gonna do? Get in my little car and drive around town and hey, thanks. No, no, I I want to I want to be a big platform, I want to have a way to engage with people and to help people learn and to help people feel seen. And um, that's the nature of the beast. So I hope somebody listens to this and feels heard and seen because that's the reason I'm doing it.

SPEAKER_00 54:03

All right, and my final question would be how can listeners support you in this journey or support the mission of honoring educators?

SPEAKER_02 54:14

Oh, that's a good question. I think more will come out in the future. I have ideas.

SPEAKER_00 54:21

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 54:22

I have some thoughts as to, you know, if that Facebook community ramps up, some things that I think I can, you know, think about the word community and think about what that means when you really think about it. When you go through something really difficult, your community is there to help you. Right. Or when you got a new initiative you got going, your community is there to help you.

SPEAKER_00 54:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:45

Or when it's time to shout somebody's name from the rooftop, you want to have somebody to shout it to. That's that's all that that really matters to me. What was the question again?

SPEAKER_00 54:55

Just like how could how do you feel like listeners can support this your mission and the reason you know, like for doing this? How can people support it?

SPEAKER_02 55:04

So I'm thinking of two things. One, I think more information will come out in the future on Facebook, like ways that I really think we can support others in the community. Um, I've not really approached that with certain people that need to be approached eventually. So more will come out about that. Um, but the other thing, and again, this isn't about getting clicks and engagement on Facebook to toot my horn about, oh, John's got you know this many followers. It's not about that, it's about having a place that people can log into on this Facebook page and have no fear of I'm gonna be judged or I don't want to say something because people are gonna think I'm not a good educator. Like again, I go back to that Genesis. And when I said like I took so much time to plan that, it's like it's okay to have more questions than answers here. Right. If you're an emerging educator, maybe you're in school right now and you're like, I don't have anything figured out. I have an empty tool belt. Go on this page, and I'm hoping this is how people can give back. When I ask a question on what works Wednesday, I want people to feel very comfortable to just say, Oh, he asked this question. I've been in education for 15 years. This is what works for me. Blah, blah, blah, it out.

SPEAKER_00 56:12

Oh, I love that. And off it goes.

SPEAKER_02 56:14

Because somebody is going to read that and try it in their space. So there's that, like, it's not PD, it's just like, boy, my tool belt's empty. You got a lot of tools. Can I can I take some of them from you? Can I learn from you? Can I watch you? I can't go to all the schools and watch and learn from people, but I can read the comments and get whether it's inspired, um, honored. You know, in this case, the what works Wednesday is going to be kind of that ongoing theme of here's a question. I'm asking my community to help answer it. And it's not, you're not answering it from me, although you are, because I'm going to learn a lot, but I want people, other educators to be able to go in there and go, huh, here's a here's a unique way.

SPEAKER_00 56:55

You know, maybe here's some things that have worked for me. Here's some ideas.

SPEAKER_02 56:58

How do we increase attendance in our schools? I just had an amazing PD a couple of months ago from Safe and Civil Schools, and it was all about attendance. And it was amazing. They had so many great strategies. So if I throw what works Wednesday out, how do you increase attendance in your schools?

SPEAKER_00 57:12

Oh, and that's a big topic right now. That's a huge topic right now.

SPEAKER_02 57:15

So throw your ideas. What works for you? That's all I'm asking. So it's really just I just ask for engagement, but not because I want engagement, it's because we support the community. Yes, yeah, the community, I think, will benefit from that engagement.

SPEAKER_00 57:30

So perfect. Well, I think that's all I have for you at this point.

SPEAKER_02 57:34

Perfect. We are at just under an hour. So wow.

SPEAKER_00 57:37

So it's good.

SPEAKER_02 57:38

Did it feel like an hour? No, I could have kept going, but I'm trying to be cognizant of time. No, I get it. So I think you did a great job.

SPEAKER_00 57:46

Well, thank you. Shout out to Jessica McKee. I had to just give my give my child a couple dirty looks there.

SPEAKER_02 57:51

But living life in the person in the living room and living the life shots into the wall or windows, so that's okay. No, no, that's that's perfect. So again, if you hear any noise in the background that Jessica feels like she's picking up on that I'm not, just know that life is happening all around us. And uh we're just trying to, you know, record and share information in whatever space we can find. And in this case, uh her son's next door doing some stuff in the other room. So he's living life and we are too.

SPEAKER_00 58:19

So I want to thank you for letting me give me the opportunity to interview you and kind of get rid of some of my scaries of being in front of a microphone rather than singing songs.

SPEAKER_02 58:31

I was gonna say, you probably already have a mic, but if you don't, go talk to my buddy Mark Lyons, I'll hook you up.

SPEAKER_00 58:35

Yeah, I have a mic, but I usually sing.

SPEAKER_02 58:38

I don't know if we're ready for that.

SPEAKER_00 58:39

Nobody's ready for that.

SPEAKER_02 58:40

I don't know if we're I don't know if we're ready for that on the close the doors for that one. My wife is hearing you say the word singing. She's like, oh dear God, stop recording. Stop recording. So um, with that, I guess we can wrap up. Um, so this is the third episode of the Honoring Educators Podcast with Jessica McKee swapping roles with John LaVeur. She interviewed me and I I hope you guys learned something and take something away or you know, feel inspired in some weird way and maybe learned a little bit more about what it is that I'm trying to do and why and how and all those things. And uh I guess until next time, uh, we'll see you later. I'm hoping to record a couple more episodes here in the next couple couple weeks. So I gotta get a hold of a few people, like my mom said, my next few victims that need to sit in a hot seat. They already know who they are and they're out there, but I gotta I gotta get a hold of them. So until then, I will uh sign off for now. Love you guys, and we'll talk to you soon. Bye.