Episode 4 - Kate Kawiecki (Occupational Therapist) - The Power of Curiosity

In this episode of The Honoring Educators Podcast, Jon sits down with Kate Kawiecki, a school-based occupational therapist, to explore the depth and impact of OT in educational settings.

The conversation begins with The Honoring — naming what makes Kate a special educator — followed by her journey into occupational therapy and what her day-to-day work looks like in schools.

From there, the episode turns into a practical strategy session, covering:

• Fine motor development and pencil grasp
• Explicit writing instruction and letter formation
• Tracing, handwriting development, and use of materials
• Strategies and supports for left-handed students
• Vision-related challenges and how eye muscles work together
• Regulation strategies to support student readiness
• Attention challenges and how to help students refocus
• Test anxiety and executive functioning supports

Kate also helps break down complex OT terminology into language educators can understand and apply immediately.

The episode closes with reflection on what defines an ideal educator and a conversation around the value and impact of school-based occupational therapy.

👉 To continue the conversation and connect with other educators, head over to the Honoring Educators Facebook page and join the community.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:03

All right, everybody. Welcome back to episode four of the Honoring Educators Podcast. I am your host, John LaFever, and I am thrilled to have my friend and colleague Kate Kawicki with us in studio today. Welcome, Kate.

SPEAKER_02 0:18

Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_00 0:19

How are we feeling, Kate?

SPEAKER_02 0:20

I'm green with a yellow hue. Or a yellow tinge.

SPEAKER_00 0:24

We got our first green with a tinge of yellow. Green for St. Patrick's Day, possibly. Or she's just genuinely a kind of a go-with-the-flow kind of person. This usually freaks everybody out. So the fact that you're green, I love it. Um, Kate is well aware of how we do business here. Um, we are gonna have the honoring, I call it, the kind of that initial set of comments and thoughts that all kind of gear towards her as a person. So my audience knows who you are dealing with today across the table from me. Um, and once we're done kind of with that, and we'll take the pressure off her, then we're just gonna let her talk. And I am I'm very excited about this episode. I've actually talked about Kate um twice, I believe, just kind of in reference. But she's been part of very specific things in the last couple of years of my career that have been pretty profound. And then you get to know her and you go, oh, there's a lot going on in that brain of hers. So we are gonna pull at some of those threats today. But just to get started, um Kate has a tool belt full of strategies and things of that nature that is pretty uncommon, in my opinion. Like our OTs tend to just be full of great information. And Kate is an occupational therapist if we haven't talked about that yet. So we're gonna sit down today with a really great occupational therapist that serves in a school setting. Um, every time I sit with her, I learn something, and it's like it allows me to get very nerdy and just go, wow, I've never heard of that before. Tell me about it. And she's very good at explaining things, so that's why I'm excited about this uh episode. Maybe I'm wrong, but I just feel like OT is a little bit of a misunderstood discipline in our schools. I think we tend to hear OT and be like, oh, we're gonna talk about pencil grasp and some of those things. And I'm like, once you've hung out with some OTs, and I've been blessed to hang out with a whole bunch of them, there is so much more that these amazing people do. So that's part of what we're gonna talk about today. Um Kate and I have not worked as closely together as like Sarah or in other episodes. Um, some of the people that I've uh have interviewed or will be interviewing, Kate and I haven't worked together quite as long. So I don't know as much about her background, and that will be a little bit of the information we get into today. Um, so I'm excited to learn that. Um so I haven't seen her kind of operate in and out of schools the way I have with others, but it's kind of one of those things that's like when you know you see somebody and you're like, that's a skilled practitioner right there, and a very knowledgeable person, and that's just how I feel about Kate. Um, we've worked long enough together to know that we're about to have a really great conversation. One thing I would say about Kate is when I'm in meetings with her, she might start off on the quiet side, but once she starts talking, it's time to get your notebook out and start taking notes because you're gonna learn a lot about the student, relationships, kind of regulation, um, a lot of different strategies and supports. So it's one of those um people that when they start kind of sharing some information, you'd be wise to um kind of really honor that and really listen. So, again, to get this on recording today and capture some of this is gonna be awesome. Kate is a master regulator of children. Um I can't count how many times, and it's happened this year, or there's been a few moments this year where I'm struggling to kind of support a student, maybe in a hallway or you know, in an office environment. And I'm like, yo, Kate, how about a hand over here? And she just comes in and she's got a very calm and soothing presence to her, and she is truly like a world-class regulator of kids. So that's part of one of the things about just kind of watching her work when you just see that in action, you say, wow, that's awesome. Um, she also does a lot of very fun and engaging kind of therapeutic supports for kids. And I don't know, she doesn't know that I'm about to say this, but this week I saw you in our hallway, and there was a little guy, and he was on like this, I don't know if she can maybe explain it, but this little cart, and he had to kind of army crawl almost with his belly on the cart and is probably building up muscles and doing all the OT stuff that I have no clue what they're talking about. Um, but watching this, I saw a huge smile on this kid's face, and he was very engaged in the activity, but just having a lot of fun. And I guess that's one of the beautiful things about Kate is she's gonna figure out a way to make not just the work fun, but kind of working with her is also fun. Um, so I can't speak enough about just kind of that positive vibe that she brings to everything. This is the part that we've talked a few times, kind of just briefly in the podcast, is we did a PD last year. And it's one of the reasons, and I need Kate to understand this, and I've kind of told her about this already, is one of the reasons I wanted to start a podcast to begin with is watching her, Emily Garlinghouse, and Helica Garcia, that group that you guys presented to a room, and I'm watching this and I'm this is a masterclass of different things. And Kate's was obviously all about OT strategies. And it was one of those moments where I looked around the room and I'm like, there's not enough people here. We need a much bigger audience. I don't, it's hard, you know. We've talked about this a little bit in some episodes. It's hard to get people in our PD sessions at times because schools are busy places, it's hard to find subcoverage. It's for a lot of reasons, it's hard to get people to some of our PD opportunities. But I'm watching this information come out and I'm like, holy smokes! I feel like more people need to hear this. And so truly, um, Kate and those other folks that worked with us in that uh PD opportunity, it's one of the reasons this podcast is here because I'm like, I just feel like there's a better way to get certain types of information out to people. So that's the beauty of what we're gonna do today is um fill this recording with, I think, really great strategies that people can truly take home at whether you're a parent and and maybe consider how you can approach your child a little bit differently or support them. But obviously, if you're working in a school setting, there's gonna be things that we're gonna talk about today that you could probably start to either think about or implement right from the get-go, um, different ways to support kiddos. And I just think that's really cool. So one of the biggest compliments, we're almost done, Kate. I'll be with you in just a second. One of the biggest compliments I can give anybody comes from other people, not me. And I've had a chance to talk to a couple teachers in our building that I currently work in. And because when when I knew Kate was going to be working in our building, I kind of went around to people and I'm like, hey, if you have some things that fall into that OT world, do yourself and everybody a favor and reach out to Kate because she's gonna be a great asset. And people took me up on that. And there's a couple teachers in particular that I've talked to, and they're like, hands down, one of the best uh supports that they've encountered, and I mean that sincerely, she's never heard me say that. But um, so it's not just what I think about Kate as a colleague and a professional, but hearing the teachers kind of speak to that um as somebody that they would gladly welcome into their environment any day of the week, because she does bring real value to that environment. So um one thing I just want to remind people on this podcast is I always ask the person that's sitting across me, you're just the expert on your own store. You don't have to be the expert OT. You don't have to speak for all occupational therapists everywhere. Everybody does their jobs a little bit differently and thinks about their work differently. But today we are going to sit and listen to Kate talk about her work and the impact that it has and all of the little nuggets of information that she can spread along the way. So without further ado, I will hush my mush and let's get into it, shall we, Kate?

SPEAKER_02 7:49

Yes, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 7:50

All right. How are we feeling?

SPEAKER_02 7:53

I think the yellow got a little brighter, but we'll be okay.

SPEAKER_00 7:55

Yellow got a little brighter. Okay. Sorry about that. That's okay. So let's start just kind of from the get-go, Kate. Um, just a little bit of the origin story. So I guess the way I'm framing it to start is like, how did we get lucky enough to have Kate Quicky operating in a school setting? Because it's my firm belief that you could probably be um doing lots of different things, maybe not even as occupational therapists. Maybe you go off and be a doctor, or you go off and you know, be an engineer or a researcher or something. How in the heck did we get lucky enough to have Kate Quicky operating in a school setting? And I don't even mean as like in Sangano County, how did you end up here per se? But what kind of what's that journey? How did you end up as an occupational therapist? And if there's anybody that nudged you, supported you, mentored you along the way, let's talk about that briefly.

SPEAKER_02 8:39

All right. So we have to go back to high school, Kate.

SPEAKER_00 8:42

All right.

SPEAKER_02 8:42

And I tutored students after school. And there was one student um that would always come to tutoring and he was autistic and hated math. I loved math, so that was a good thing in high school to help with that. And just working with him, I would notice, oh, he really likes Batman. Like he had a Batman backpack, a Batman lunchbox, all the Batman things. And if we started talking about Batman, you could see him relax. Um, I started like trying to figure out ways to incorporate Batman into math. And like, even if it's just like I brought him Batman stickers, I'm like, mom, I need these. He's like, okay, we got them. And started just going really well. And so that was the first time when I think about anything OT related in my life. I'm like, oh, that was actually very OT of me. And I do that with air quotes to like find this thing that really rocks it out for this kid that's interesting to him, and then use that to help him learn. And then also found out like he hated thunderstorms and so started paying attention to the weather because I knew if the weather was gonna turn bad, tutoring was gonna be really rough. And so worked with another tutor and we started finding ways to accommodate the room so you couldn't hear the thunder, see the lightning flash if it was coming, just all of that kind of stuff. So it started there. So then I'm going to college. And when I'm thinking about college, I was like, okay, what do I want to do? I think I want to work with kids. PT sounded kind of cool. Um, and somebody said to me one day, you'd be a really good OT. And I had no idea what it was. I looked into it a little bit more. I'm like, oh, this sounds really cool. And the more I learned, the more I was really interested in it because OT looks at, they use the word holistic all the time, and not holistic in the way that we tend to use it now, but more like you're really looking at the mental health and the social health and the physical health and all of this together, a whole person viewpoint. And I was like, I really liked that. I thought that was interesting. I get going and then I'm like, I know I want to work with kids, but I think I want to be a doctor. I love neurology and I got really excited about that. But then as I got going through, the classes were interesting, but I also knew that I wanted to be more hands-on with kids. And there were certain things with being a doctor that I'm like, eh, that's not a good fit for me. And ended up kind of shifting back, um, got my bachelor's degrees, and then ended up going to grad school and getting my degree for OT.

SPEAKER_00 11:06

Awesome. It's very interesting to me that it started in high school as you acting as a support for somebody else and just listening to you. I'm nodding my head as she's talking because I'm like, even a lot of the way you're talking almost sounds very kind of ASD-ish of very strong interest areas, and how can I incorporate those to get a better outcome and being predictive of things that might cause a kid some kind of stress and anxiety? And remember now, these are things that we talk about as professionals. And for some reason, it was a rattling around in her brain as a high school student. So again, you start to see that shimmering of like, there's a lot going on there that she's picking up and intuitive to that. Um, so that's fascinating to me. So I'm so thrilled that you work in school settings. And I say this uh so many OTs just are so so wonderful at all of those things. But um, here I am talking to you, and I could not be happier that that you somehow found your way into a school setting, and then we get to to work with you and pull at those threads. So that's awesome. Um, the next thing I wanted to do is put you in the hot seat to again. I'm just asking you to speak about your experiences. But for somebody listening at home, whether it's a parent that says, what does that OT do at school or a teacher that says, I see the person kind of running around and supporting kids in unique ways, but I really don't know what that day-to-day looks like. Um, in the different episodes I've talked about part of this podcast, is I want people to listen and go, I have a better understanding of the different roles that we see in schools. So now I'm gonna put you in the hot seat to say, what the heck does an OT do? And you could say on a typical day, a typical week, however you want to describe it, but what are the kind of core functions of an OT in a school setting from your perspective?

SPEAKER_02 12:46

So I think to understand what occupational therapy is, we have to define occupation. And most people, when they hear occupation, they think job, but you have to get rid of that definition. So we define occupation as anything that you're doing in your life that is meaningful and takes up time. And so sometimes that meaningful is like meaningful and makes you happy. Sometimes that meaningful is meaningful because you just have to do it. We just have to get dressed. That's an occupation. But some people love to garden, and so that's also a meaningful occupation for them. Okay. So for students in school, their occupations are to learn, to engage with their peers, um, to be able to regulate all of these types of things. So we look at what is the roadblock? Why is a student not able to engage in all the occupations they need to engage in as a student? And then when we find that mismatch, that roadblock, then it's like, how do we fix this? Do we need to teach them a skill? Do we need to adapt the environment? Do we need to train everybody around them because they just aren't aware? And so it's just kind of problem solving and putting those pieces together.

SPEAKER_00 13:50

This episode's gonna be wild for me because normally I can be a little more predictive of what somebody's gonna say. I am literally listening and learning some of these questions. I'm I'm like not asking them because I want you to learn, I'm asking them because I want to learn. Even just hearing you describe occupation through the lens of an OTS school setting, that's really interesting for me. In terms of like, in my brain, I'm thinking of like uh a pie chart. Like, how much time are you spending? Whether it's, hey, I'm pulling out that kiddo like you were doing in the hallway and engaging in some kind of therapeutic services or in your office, obviously, um, versus sitting in meetings versus you know, classroom observations versus like meeting with parents, kind of what are those kind of core roles that you might serve and in those capacities?

SPEAKER_02 14:35

Well, obviously, like I try to see the students as much as I can. Um, and unfortunately, I wouldn't say it's the bulk of my time because there are a lot of meetings. I think students, especially now, have a lot more complex needs, which require more meetings for the staff to problem solve and see what we can do. Um, because OT in the school is in the special ed world, you have an IET for every student. Um, so there's those meetings. Um, so a lot of meetings. Um the planning, I try to do it. Sometimes it's honestly on the fly. It's like, okay, now we got to work on this. I've got a scooter board, we're gonna make it happen. Other times it's like, oh, St. Patrick's Day is coming. We've got all the things we can pull out for that. Um so talking with parents, I try to check in um with them periodically throughout the year, but I always make sure they have my contact information. Like anything you want to know at any point, please reach out and from me. I'm like, I'll try to give you an update. Like we do progress supports. If there's something else they really need to know, I'll let them know. From teachers, I'm trying to check in regularly. And I just try to tell them all, even if they're not on my caseload, let me know because it might be a five-minute conversation and you can take it and go.

SPEAKER_00 15:45

And that that last bit right there, especially in my current role, my my former roles, I've been in special at now. I'm a little bit more of a gen ed person. So it's not uncommon for me to pull Kate aside at work and be like, we're not trying to add a kid to your caseload right now, but I do value your input. What do you think on this? Let me explain something to you that we're seeing. Like, as an example, let's talk the headphones this week. Um, we had we had a student that wears headphones quite a bit during the day, and we've noticed that he's like pressing them up against the wall as he walks down the wall. And one of my colleagues, shout out to Emily Yoder, she put the headphones on to kind of get some feedback as to what that might sound like, and she thought it was very abrasive. But in my mind, I'm like, if the kid's doing it a lot, he might be getting something out of that. So that's where I go to my OTs, Kate in this case, and I'm like, what am I missing here? And you know, and we don't know if this is going to end up being the thing, but she's like, let's talk about some crunchy foods because there's a sense that he might be getting some, I don't know, you can describe it, but kind of like that auditory feedback, maybe.

SPEAKER_02 16:45

I don't know what I call it auditory input. So it's just like certain sounds that for whatever reason his brain really likes them or responds well and it creates a calming effect for him.

SPEAKER_00 16:54

Okay. So that's just an example. It happened this week. We notice something, we're we're inquisitive in our world of like that behavior. We don't see that with a lot of kids. We don't we don't see it. So if it's happening more than once, we believe that it's being reinforced and it's it's doing something for them. So I'm out of I'm out of strategies when it comes to that one. So I talked to Kate and she's like, let's think about it differently. And it kind of opened my eyes. Now, again, we'll we'll have to brainstorm and process some of that, but that's an exact example of how I can utilize this person and how other people could probably utilize OTs of when you're scratching your head and something's not making sense and it fits into that realm. Go tap that OT on the shoulder. I find all of them that I've worked with to be exceptional in that regard of just kind of pointing us in the right direction. And if we need to constall deeper, we can. But um, it's a really great place to start with some of that stuff. So, and it just happened to happen this week. So awesome. So we are now gonna shift into what I think is about to be my favorite part of this episode. Let's talk strategies, Kate. And I don't care how you want to handle this.

SPEAKER_02 18:00

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 18:01

Before I pass the mic over to her and learn for a while, Kate and I have already talked, like, this could be a multi-episode uh guest that we're dealing with here, because the basket of goodies is abundant. Um, they she comes uh locked and loaded with strategies. Now putting her on the spot, so she better have uh a handful of them here to talk about today. Um, but we've already kind of been down this road and like, what are we gonna talk about? So, Kate, I'm gonna pass the torch to you and just start letting you talk about maybe some of those things that you just see pop up a lot that you're like, a lot of people have asked me about those, so let's address them here. But if you want to clump them, categorize them, however you want to handle this, let's learn.

SPEAKER_02 18:40

All right. So we are going to start with fine motor because that is the one that everybody's like, oh, OT, handwriting, fine motor. Um, and the biggest things with that I want to talk about, pencil grasp is a huge one. It used to be that that standard tripod where you're holding it with your thumb, index finger, and middle finger was the go-to. That was the gold standard. That's the grasp you want. But actually, as time has gone on, people are finding their currently there's four that the people in charge say this is the people, this is what it should be. But the reality of pencil grasp is you want to look, can the student control a writing tool? Can they do it without paying? Can they do it for uh an appropriate amount of time? And can you read what the output is? So if you're hitting yes on all of those, but they're doing something wild, um, let it be. Okay. Like it's not worth trying to change that pattern if they're successful with it. It's really funny. Um, if you were to ever come to an OT meeting and see us all hold our pencils, I think we all hold it differently. And some of them are really wild, but they've got it down and so you're looking for that function. Okay. Um, and then when it comes to like letter formation, currently in the state of Michigan, there's not a handwriting curriculum. And so teachers are awesome about finding ways to incorporate it. Obviously, they need to teach these kids to write, um, and it's usually incorporated with like phonics. But a lot of the research is showing that if you can have a designated time for explicit handwriting instruction when they're little, then you only have to devote five minutes a day to maintenance later on. So it's not a huge amount of time. And the explicit instruction is only like 10 to 15 when you're first teaching them, but it can't be combined with phonics, it has to be explicit handwriting instruction.

SPEAKER_00 20:31

So let me interrupt real quick. So you're saying to a teacher for that age range where they're developing writing skills.

SPEAKER_02 20:37

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 20:38

If we devote a small amount of time to explicitly teaching handwriting, we can kind of feel comfortable that we've checked that box. We might incorporate handwriting with lots of other things, but when we're talking explicit handwriting instruction, a pretty small amount of time. Yes. So let's let's get through this, kids, and make that as enjoyable and as fun and as whatever we can do to get them engaged. But after that, we can incorporate lots of other stuff, but that explicit is such a small chunk of time. Yes. That's helpful, I think, for people at home right there.

SPEAKER_02 21:08

And then when teaching handwriting, um, I know tracing worksheets, I see the value in them, I understand. Um, but make sure if you're using a tracing worksheet that you have a starting dot on your letters for the students because what happens is you have 20 students all tracing a letter and they turn in these worksheets or you check all these worksheets, you're like, yes, like John did it right, Kate did it right, they all were on the line, but you didn't see where they started from. So when you take that tracing line away, all of a sudden you've got kids starting all over the place, and that carryover is not the same. And if they are starting somewhere different every time, they're not establishing that motor memory piece that they're going to need to be able to just do it without thinking.

SPEAKER_00 21:48

Okay. See, right there, that helps me understand. If they start in the same spot each time, it's like in order to get to the end goal, we go through that same path. But if we're starting in different spots each time, we lose track of how did that? Feel to make that letter F.

SPEAKER_01 22:01

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 22:02

Okay, so there you go. So let's, if we're going to do some tracing, give them that starter dot. Are there materials I would imagine like that you could just find that are all embedded with starter dots? Is that kind of uncommon?

SPEAKER_02 22:13

I'm seeing them more and more. Um, I am a huge fan of bubble letters rather than tracing paths. So and you can bubble letters because they have to form the line without the line being there for them. So the bubble provides a boundary, but it doesn't give them the exact line to follow.

SPEAKER_00 22:29

I love that. Yeah, because most of what I'm thinking is like the little almost a dashed line and we follow it, and that's fine. But you're saying have them right within the bubble. You can go anywhere within that bubble essentially, but it gives you the a letter as itself. But you're saying then it doesn't force you to explain that again for me. Sorry for the listeners at home.

SPEAKER_02 22:47

You got it, and I don't even know what I just said, but the bubble. Why are you in the bubbles? Because when you're doing a bubble, you have to form it yourself. You have a general guideline. Okay, I see this F, I know kind of what it looks like, but you still have to form the line on your own. If you have that dashed line for the F, they formed it for you and you're just following.

SPEAKER_00 23:05

Okay. So it's tracing versus kind of formation. Fair enough. Okay. Very good.

SPEAKER_02 23:11

So, and then with handwriting, and this is actually a good segue into showing some love for our lefties, show them some grace on formation. It's really awkward for our left-handed writers to like cross their T, cross their F if they go left to right, because you're having to push across the paper. It's a lot more comfortable to pull across the paper. If it's a straight line going across left or right-handed, it really doesn't matter which way they went with that one. Um, but especially our left-handed writers. Um, things for our left-handed writers and not just writing, left-handed in general, um, check their scissors, especially for the littles that are cutting all the time. Because if they're a left-handed child is using right-handed scissors, the top piece of the scissors is actually in their field of vision and it'll put them off a little bit. They can learn to use right-handed scissors, but why make it harder for them when they're little?

SPEAKER_00 24:03

So for the listeners at home, and we're gonna probably come back to this, there's a specific question about lefties that I'm curious about. But just so people at home are very clear, there are different scissors for lefties and righties. And if you notice a student using their left hand to develop some of those scissors skills, let's make sure we're embedding some left-handed scissors. So it kind of aids in that.

SPEAKER_02 24:24

And if it doesn't stay on the scissors, you can always check when you open the scissors. Obviously, one side goes up, one side goes down. The side that goes down should be the side facing like midline.

SPEAKER_00 24:35

Okay. So the side that's facing like the inside, if you will. Midline, she says. I call it inside. Uh all right, there you go. That's helpful too.

SPEAKER_02 24:45

Um, for our left-handed students, giving them notebooks um that either have like the rings across the top, or just giving them a regular notebook with rings, but then having them flip it from the back and going that way. So the rings are on the right side of the page.

SPEAKER_00 25:02

Okay, so again, if you're listening at home, you might be going, I'm I'm a writer, I've never thought about this. But in schools, oh Lord, we see it all the time where a lefty struggles for different reasons. So what you're saying is instead of that coiled ring being on the left-hand side, and now a lefty's got their arm on that ring and it can be cumbersome and messy, use a book that has the ring at the top, yes, or flip a standard book upside down and have them kind of work from the back of the book forward with the rings now on the right.

SPEAKER_02 25:30

You could do upside down, or you could just flip it over so you're starting from the back. Sometimes in notebooks, you've got like the huge block at the top, and then all the lines. So if you go upside down, then you have the block at the bottom. Depends on what you're using it for for some of the things that might not matter.

SPEAKER_00 25:46

Okay. Because I have to believe there's some people at home that are going, my kid's a lefty, or I have a couple students that are lefties and just kind of thinking our way through everything's just a little bit different. And again, the scissors are gonna, you know, operate a little bit different. The way they write, the what materials we typically give students are. I mean, if we're just being honest, the world's kind of designed, it feels like, for right-handers. Um golf clubs. I mean, everything you go to rent golf clubs, and good luck finding a set of lefty clubs. But um, in this case, there are materials, there are resources available for our lefties out there. All right.

SPEAKER_02 26:19

I've actually met people like earlier in my career who were like older generations, and they said, I started out left-handed, but my parents made me use my right hand, and now I'm right-handed. And I think at one point you couldn't find all the left-handed stuff.

SPEAKER_00 26:34

And so Do you have an opinion on that? Like, and again, I don't want to put you on the spot, but it's okay.

SPEAKER_02 26:40

Um, I don't think it matters. I think there's going to be a side that's naturally more coordinated, more dominant, especially starting out. And so I think just let them roll with that. And especially now, we can find things to adapt, whatever tool they need, whatever project they're working on. There's a way to make it work well for left-handed and right-handed students. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 27:00

So the idea, like maybe back in the day when we see a kid starting to maybe use that left hand, we're going, no, no, no, let's try to force that right-handedness. Now you're kind of saying roll with it. If that's where they're comfy, let them roll with it. And we can adapt. I don't know if this is where you're going, but with whether it's 3D printers or different materials that we can kind of use to is that kind of what you're thinking? Is there ways to adapt the materials that we're using to make it easier for a lefty?

SPEAKER_02 27:25

We can. And honestly, like left-handed scissors are a lot easier to find. This is the first year I didn't have to order them online. I found them in stores. Um, like I said, the notebook, you can use regular ones and they just flip it the other way. Um and then like pencils work the same. I did try a pen out this year, and it's kind of like a squiggly looking pen. And it was meant for left-handed writers because a lot of times when they're writing, their hands will drag across the paper and they'll get the ink. And so the way it angled, it was supposed to keep their hand up. I had a couple left-handed adults use it, and they're like, okay, I can see how it works. But at this point, they also know how to use a regular pen without getting the ink on their hands. So I don't know how successful it is. But the fact that I easily found this pen, like, hey, it's coming out.

SPEAKER_01 28:08

That says something. All right, look it up.

SPEAKER_02 28:10

Um, and with the writing for your left-handed writers, when like you think about holding a pencil and we're always like hold it close to the tip, but so they don't get that smear of their hands, just have them hold it a little higher and teach them to hold it a little higher. And then to turn the paper, so you're turning the top of the paper the writing on clockwise, because that will keep them from like angling the wrists really weird. We don't want wonky wrists.

SPEAKER_00 28:34

Okay. I'm even thinking when we put your episode out on Facebook, I might even ask you to give me some visual images, like how the paper can rotate and different things, just so for our visual learners at home, like your podcast post currently, just to be able to see kind of where the hand is oriented with the paper and where to turn that. So folks that might be listening at home but struggling to figure out exactly what that might look like. I might I might kind of go a little heavy on some visuals here to really paint with a a clean, clean picture of what we're talking about. So beautiful. What else you got for us?

SPEAKER_02 29:06

Oh, so one thing people don't know that OTs can help with is vision.

SPEAKER_00 29:11

Let's talk about that because I think there's a lot of people that are like, what did you just say? Let's talk vision with our OTs.

SPEAKER_02 29:17

All right, so vision is especially in students, is significantly undiagnosed. There's so many kids going through who have vision issues, and it's not the vision that we're thinking of, like, oh, do they have 2020? And when you get a vision screen done, they're awesome. And I'm glad that we're able to do those for our students. But they have um, they're just looking at do they have that 2020 vision? Can they see clearly? Can they see near? Can they see far that's appropriately? But it doesn't always look at how are the eye muscles working together. And you need those eye muscles to work together appropriately for reading, for writing, for not getting dizzy or getting headaches. And so there actually has been a lot of research on vision. And um, I saw this really cool Venn diagram, and it was showing like symptoms of vision deficits and how it overlapped with ADHD and how it overlapped with behavior issues, because you can get the headaches, you can get that frustration, you can have the difficulty with attention, all of the stuff that is truly vision related, but then it gets to diagnose something else because nobody looked at how are the eye muscles working together.

SPEAKER_00 30:24

All right. So again, I'm gonna ask questions that I think I'm interested in, and maybe somebody else is too. But what are some signs that somebody can look out for to go? Is that what that lady was talking about in the podcast? That is this a vision thing? What might somebody look for if they're if that's kind of what they're trying to rule out?

SPEAKER_02 30:42

So you are looking at like when they're copying things, does it seem easy? Is the copying really messy? And a huge sign is if the copying is messier than if they're just writing like from memory. Um, if you start to see the complaining of headaches, if you see like more behavior type things after reading or writing activities.

SPEAKER_00 31:02

Um is that because their eye, their vision, their eyes are working hard and it's like almost stressing them and their bodies out?

SPEAKER_02 31:09

Yep. And then they can stress out the nervous system, which leads into all of that.

SPEAKER_00 31:13

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 31:15

And I always say anytime we have a student where we're like, oh, they might have ADHD, or oh, there's some behaviors here that we just can't quite explain. Like, have they had their eyes checked? And it's just kind of a go-to at this point, just to have their eyes checked, and to tell the parents when you get their eyes checked, make sure that they're looking at how the muscles are working together, not just like the visual acuity, is what it's called.

SPEAKER_00 31:39

So is that is that part of like a standard eye exam, or should a parent be thinking that next layer deep?

SPEAKER_02 31:45

I think it depends on where you go. So I know like any eye exam I've ever had, as an adult at least, they know they check it. But I know they don't, and again, I don't know if they do it in all like kid exams. And I also don't know how often our kids go to the eye doctor if their screening comes back normal.

SPEAKER_00 32:01

Okay. But that's interesting. So again, if you're a parent and you have a kid that maybe is struggling with some of those things that we've talked about that kind of look and feel like it could be ADHD or other things, when next time they're in at the eye doctor, or is this something that would be part of a standard eye exam in like a school setting, or is that mostly looking at it's gonna have to be an eye doctor. Okay, so it's not it's not when the the teams come into the schools to look at vision at an eye doctor. And again, your your side is not just how well could I see, it's the muscles and how they're working. Yeah. Okay. And that that right there might help a parent really kind of cross a certain bridge before they ever would have, because now they have that little bit of knowledge when next time they're at the eye doctor to go, I listened to this podcast, this lady named Kate was saying this. Can we take a look at it? And I guarantee there's gonna be somebody out there that goes, that wasn't exactly what this was for this kid. Again, just a little nugget of information here that can really maybe set a family on the right path to getting some support for their kid instead of chasing something else down and over, maybe not being exactly what they were after.

SPEAKER_02 33:00

So and if you have quite like teachers, like you know, I might see this with a student, OTs, and I so OTs all have the same original or very similar original training, but then we all branch off into whatever is interesting to us. So not every OT has done extensive vision, but they can tell you, I know this OT does. Okay. So like I know vision, so I can screen and kind of see how the eye muscles are going. And I also know how to incorporate vision things in our treatments, but I can't diagnose.

SPEAKER_00 33:32

Okay. Okay, but you're you're savvy enough because that's an interest area of yours, and you've got some training to kind of pick it out. But when it comes to, oh, I have enough information to suggest there could be something here. Now we have to go somewhere else to get that diagnosed. Fair enough. All right. Um, what's next in your basket of strategies? And again, you can bop around anywhere Kate wants to go.

SPEAKER_02 33:52

So I've we kind of talked about like regulating students and helping them. And my go-to with that is always telling adults, have a script, kind of know, like when you are calm. What would you say if you and you can think about a specific student or just a very generic scenario? What would you say to the student that is starting to have a difficult time? What would you say to the student that's in the midst of it? What would you say to the student that you're catching them as they're kind of coming out? And have that script, know that script, because when you walk into that situation, you're problem solving, you might be stressed. And when you are in those moments, you're not able to think clearly on the fly as well as you would in the relaxed moments. So if you have that all ready to go, you're much better off and saying the right thing and better supporting the student.

SPEAKER_00 34:39

That makes so much sense. So if you're listening to this, you're probably an education or maybe a parent, but I think we can all take ourselves to that place where maybe some behaviors are happening around us, we get a little stressed, we get a little anxious. And what I think I want to say to that kid is not what comes out. And I think what you're saying is either we we've rehearsed it or we actually have an actual script to go off of to say, all right, I'm now encountering a kiddo. I mean, we've I've seen these on like lanyards and different things where it's like, here's some words to use when the rubber meets the road and things are getting hot in a classroom or you know, with a kiddo in a hallway environment. It's like, I need that concrete example of kind of maybe a way to approach it. Any strategies on maybe what to say? And I know it'd be very, and I'll probably put you on the spot there, but you know, very student specific. But things that you could say to maybe you're approaching a student that you can just tell is starting to get a little dysregulated. Just maybe I think I talked in my last episode or online on Facebook where I said a phrase that I just tend to use. And now again, it's not always appropriate because maybe the kid is going to potentially have a consequence and be in trouble. And I'm not gonna lie to him, but more often than not, when I'm encountering a kid, I can tell they're starting to bubble. And I might just say, Hey, bud, you're not in any trouble. We're just gonna talk. And for some reason, that is just a very disarming comment that I tend to make. Um, what are you thinking in terms of because I've watched you regulate students and work with dysregulated students, so what are some of the AC that's up in your sleep?

SPEAKER_02 36:00

So I always start with like a very, hey John, what are you doing? If you're just kind of like out in the hallway, and I'm like, okay, this is a little off, but we're not in the in the deep. And um, because sometimes they just need a different adult.

SPEAKER_01 36:15

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 36:16

And so there many times that works. The student would be like, I had one. He's like, I'm fooling around. I'm like, okay, well, let's fool around on our way to class. And so we got down to class. Um, but recently saw a student. I'm like, hey, what's going on? How's it going? And they were sitting on the ground and then they curled up in a ball. And I was like, okay, that is not what they need right now. And I just said, I'm gonna sit down here by you. I'm like, you don't have to talk to me, but I'm here if you need me. And then I just sat there and we probably sat there for five minutes before they came out of their ball. And I would see him kind of like peeking under his elbow. She's still there, she's still there, and I was still there. And then when he kind of sat up, I was just like, Hey, are you hurt? No, because I think sometimes we don't think about, I think when students act this way, we automatically go to the behavior as an acting out of some sort. And I try to remember what could possibly be going on. Are they hungry? Are they hurt? Are they scared? Are they tired? All of these like physical needs that we have. And sometimes they can tell me yes, sometimes they can tell me no. Um, and so I just kind of go through those, but I also pay close attention because I don't want to use too many words because I think most of us in education that's my fault. The more we talk to kids, especially when they're feeling dysregulated or stressed, we're just amping them up even more. We're making it worse. Um, and kind of went through that. And he's just like, no, he wasn't hurt. No, he wasn't hungry, he didn't want to go to lunch. And honestly, I think he just wanted some attention for a while because then he started showing me all of like the boo-boos on his legs and the new band-aid he had gone. And we talked about that. And then another adult came by and she's like, Hey, what's going on? And he got up and walked away with her.

SPEAKER_01 37:58

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_02 37:59

So it was very much a team effort, but it was multiple pieces in that one tiny part.

SPEAKER_00 38:05

The one thing I think in I I suspect our listeners picked up on at a home, they might be going, it's five minutes. You sat there for five minutes, and it's like, if you don't work in schools, you may not get it. But yeah, it could very easily be a five-minute wait, you know, of like when that student's ready. Because we can push that, we can we can try to expedite that. But the outcome isn't always what we want. So, and again, if you're a teacher and you got these different responsibilities in a school, you're going, hey, I got 25 kids in my class. It may not be appropriate for that teacher right there, but here we are as you know, there are cases, whether ancillary or support staff in different ways where maybe that does become our roles, like, hey, I got this for a few minutes, I can sit with them. Um, that's just something that we have a little bit more freedom to do because we don't have 25 other kids sitting in a classroom, maybe waiting for us. Um, and some of the strongest regulators I know, one of the best tools that they can use is the tool of time, is just kind of giving that student some time to calm down. And I love how you said like the language also can be a big factor is I think I can talk everybody out of whatever's going on. Mr. John will talk you're in out of it. And I've had to learn over the years that for some kids, my voice can be very helpful, and other kids, it's just too much. Some of my listeners might appreciate that too. They might be like enough guy. Um, but a lot of our kids are very much like that. So that's very interesting to listen to you say that. So, what other goodies might you have in that regulation world?

SPEAKER_02 39:28

I always try to encourage people to be honest about how regulated they are, because if you're not regulated, you are not going to help a child co-regulate. Um, and there's no shame in being like, I have to tap out on this one and call somebody. And I mean, one of the beauties of working in the school is there's adults everywhere. And so you're like, I can't I can't right now. Um, I know one teacher and um she has a code word in her class. And so because she has some pair pros helping her in the class as well, and she they have a code word. And if one of them's just like, I have reached my limit, they say the code word and they know she can't handle this right now. She's just not in a space where this is a good fit, and somebody else jumps in.

SPEAKER_00 40:07

I I want to piggyback on everything she says because I'm interested in it. But that one I need everybody to hear, and I need you to digest it, and I need you to appreciate it. It does not make you weak, it does not make you a failure, it does not mean, oh, there's their waving their white flag again. It means you're human and it means you're not in a position to support that student as effectively as you otherwise would. So when you use that code word or, you know, just to tap in, tap out, like right now, when we talk about this in our CPI training something, you know, like Kaylee and Sarah and Teresa, and we've had these conversations 10,000 times of like, I may not be the person right now because I am now emotionally kind of not in a space where I'm going to be reading from a script very well, you know. And we owe it to the students to give them the best shot at getting this kind of resolved and in supporting them in a in a in a way that gives a good outcome. And I can take an hour to do that because I'm disregulated myself as a staff member. But if I can just have the courage to say whatever that code word is or to look across the room and say, tap in. That's not me as a failure. That's me kind of respecting the student in the process and knowing that there could be somebody else that's better equipped to do this job right now. So I really appreciate you saying that.

SPEAKER_02 41:21

All right. Um, let's talk about attention a little bit. So we attention attention or difficulties with attention.

SPEAKER_00 41:30

So the two the listeners just perked up. They're like, okay, we've we've heard of students that struggle with attention a little bit. Um, we are about to learn something about attention. I don't know what she's getting ready to say, but I got my pencil in my hand or my pen and I got a tripod grip on this thing. So let's go.

SPEAKER_02 41:45

All right. So when we work with students and we're like, oh, they have poor attention span, they can't sustain their attention. That would be the word that's used a lot, sustain. We don't want to immediately target lengthening their attention span. The skill we actually want to teach them is how to refocus their attention. So while we've been doing this podcast, people are listening, but they might be driving, they might be doing a chore around how the house and that something might happen and it takes their attention away, especially if you're driving, like pay attention to the road first. And but then they refocus back on what we're talking about. But a lot of students don't know how to refocus. A lot of students don't realize that their attention has drifted off. And so, my recommendation for helping students start this is when you're teaching, you have moments where you check in with your students and you make it very clear there is no shame with this. You do not have to tell me anything. This is just a you in your head moment. What were you thinking about right now? And have every student in there just think, well, you can have them jot it down where nobody can see it, but it starts to make them aware. What was I thinking about right then when my teacher was teaching me this math lesson? And then you can go on. And then after the lesson is done, the teacher can explicitly teach them if you find your attention drifting and you need to refocus, you can tap your foot, you can take a deep breath. Um, you can like rub like the underside of the chairs, if they're plastic, they always have that lip. If you rub your finger across it, it's just enough tactile input and enough pressure that it kind of alerts the brain and brings you back. Um, if teachers are okay with students standing, you can stand in the back of the class that there's a standing desk. Um, you can move to the front if you need to. You can cross your legs and wiggle your foot, whatever you might need, take a drink of water, all of these things that are alerting to the brain because you're just like, whoop, I veered off. I need to refocus my attention. So you teach them this, and then you periodically, as you're teaching, you're like, hey, what were we thinking about right there? And again, they don't actually give you the answer because it's a project for them to think about. Um, but by doing that, you create the awareness, you teach them to refocus, and we want them to refocus and once they know how to do that then we can start scaffolding to work on building that attention span.

SPEAKER_00 44:06

Oh I love that. Um oh I had this profound thought when you were talking in it I lost focus when I was thinking of touching the underside of a chair. It's a real story. I'm not exactly sure where my thought went but I I do love oh no this is what it was then I made a note of it so why didn't I remember it? It's almost like a way to have a student almost self-monitor but with a little structure added in of we're kind of triggering the self-monitoring. But I think what you said is there's no right or wrong answer. Per se it's not like you have to give us the answer we're not gonna shame you or something. Oh you've lost no it's just us checking in real quick and if you notice you've wandered teaching some of those kind of and somebody might be listening and say well how in the heck does tapping your foot or touching the underside of the chair or whatever. So real briefly again just kind of explain to us how how does any of that actually work and some of this is just my brain also keeping materials.

SPEAKER_02 44:56

So there are two categories of activities when we talk about this alerting and like calming. And so in this we want the alerting activities we want the things that kind of help the brain wake up rather than the things that are going to help soothe the brain and calm it down. And so and it ties in your sensory system. I'm sure most people have heard sensory at this point. And it's just what are the things that tend to kind of like give your brain that little boost and so the change in texture on your hands that's going to give you a little boost. Taking a drink of water if your water's cold temperature can do it. Just taking a drink and like the movement can do it. The wiggling your foot again having that movement can be alerting um giving kids a mint. I know I had a professor who always gave us a peppermint before we took our exams that's very alerting for your brain.

SPEAKER_00 45:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 45:48

And so she could wake us all up before we had to go take that thing.

SPEAKER_00 45:50

All right. I love I love how you just separated like the I've just been annoyed with that too is that alerting versus calming. And in this case we're trying to kind of alert that brain of no it's not time to learn or we're drifting off a little bit but doing something to kind of trigger that brain to get back on track is essentially what you're talking about.

SPEAKER_02 46:06

Because we all we all drift and so it's just as we get older especially we learn more and more about oh when I drift this works for me and we don't even realize it sometimes like how many of us drink coffee? Yeah that's alerting.

SPEAKER_00 46:18

Yeah very alerting I drink more than I need to and I'm very alert so um anything else that you that's on the tip of your brain that kind of fits in that box because again I'm thinking there's like executive functioning that we've not talked about and if we're not ready to get into that because we want to save that for another then please feel I do want to touch on it because the one the one that's at the tip of my mind tip of my mind tip of my brain is um test anxiety. Ah so if you're listening at home and you have a kiddo in your class or a child in your home um testing anxiety is a very very real thing as a school psychologist I gave a lot of tests and I did a lot of my efforts were to get that kid to calm during that because you can almost feel like this isn't a grade, you know, um but I've worked with so many kids that you know the information's there but it gets stuck during that anxiety piece and I know that there's people listening at home that are probably again kind of perking up going they're about to say something that impacts my child a lot. So I'm I'm very curious to hear what can we do to support or maybe even recognize test anxiety too.

SPEAKER_02 47:31

So with test anxiety like there's some really amazing strategies for like helping calm and practicing but those are great and they work but sometimes they aren't enough because what's actually happening in the brain is not just pure anxiety. It's actually an executive function dysfunction or an executive function overwhelm. So for anybody that's not quite familiar with executive functioning um it's kind of your brain process it's like the air traffic controller in your brain it takes all the information it organizes it creates a plan and then you have your physical output from it. And so you think about taking a test you have to have your working memory which is my teacher just gave me the instructions for this test. I have to keep those instructions as my head but not only am I have do I have this working memory of the short term information, I've got all that information I'm trying to retain from studying for this thing that I have to keep. So you've got all of that you're trying to remember you're trying to tune out all of the distractions around you. You have to shift gears while you're taking it because it might be part multiple choice and then a fill in the blank and then a short essay. And even though the material is on the same topic that code switching throughout can be really hard for some people. And so they start going through all of that. So you've got all of these things going on in their brain and then it creates stress and the higher your stress goes the less cognitive resource you have to work with. And so we've all had those moments where we get put on the spot with something like I know I know this, but I can't tell you right now. And that's because our brain is stressed and our brain's like why are you stressed? I need to protect you. So all of that energy goes towards your survival mechanisms and not these higher level functions. They're the first to go in moments of stress. So things you could so I actually want to talk more about what you can do to support the executive functioning piece rather than like the anxiety piece.

SPEAKER_00 49:27

Love it.

SPEAKER_02 49:28

So the first thing is if you're able preview the format of the test ahead of time. Disarm just let them know 10 multiple choice 10 fill in the blank two short essay um I actually was helping my son study for his math test and she sends home a practice test and it's the exact format. They're just different questions. So he knows exactly what he's walking into. He just has to know how to do it. And I understand you can't always send home a test like that but you can tell them what's coming.

SPEAKER_00 49:58

Yeah it's it it fits so well with you know there's we've only done a couple episodes but you this reoccurring theme here is like let that kid be predictive of what's coming whether it's a visual schedule just kind of what's coming in their day. But in this case it's like we are already stressed because we're about to take a test but we can tamp that down a little bit by just kind of knowing what's the format of that? What am I getting myself into so you're not kind of shocked by anything you see there.

SPEAKER_01 50:23

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 50:24

Okay that's a pretty a pretty simple thing that I think we can we can probably process as educators to say just be clear with your students leading up to it as to kind of what that might look like. All right.

SPEAKER_02 50:36

I highly recommend giving them if the test doesn't have like a blank backside giving them a piece of paper having pulled out let them brain dump at the beginning. I was one of those students in school where I'm like I've got it all in here. I'm ready to go but I was so worried that I would forget it during the test that I would flip my test over and I would write everything I could think of on the back of it. But then I was freaked out about the time. But I think so that will lead into my next thought in a moment but give them the opportunity and encourage them anything that you want to remember, dump it out on this paper and then you've got it there and then you don't have to worry about keeping it in your head because you just wrote it down.

SPEAKER_00 51:15

I love so and you're talking structuring that time hey guys we're not even starting the test in terms of the time test yet you have it in front of you or here's a piece of paper take all of that stuff that's stuck in your brain right now dump it out on this piece of paper little keywords, clues, uh maybe a formula whatever it may be and then it's almost like if it's already in your brain, I'm just asking you to get it out. So when you're using that sheet during the test, it's your own thoughts it's your own knowledge it's your own memory but you've gotten it out. So now when you're actually taking the test and that anxiety creeps up it's all right there.

SPEAKER_02 51:50

I've never heard somebody say that never once in my life and actually I like that you said that because initially when I was talking I was envisioning it more as just like okay the test is begun use the go ahead and start by brain dumping but I like your strategy better where it's not even part of the test because then for those who truly are anxious about it the test hasn't even started. This is no big deal. You're just writing out the things you know so so do what John said. That was a really good one.

SPEAKER_00 52:15

We're never going to do it John said that's a that's a dangerous game to play. All right but I I've never heard somebody say that and it makes so much sense to me. So my head's nodding up and down while she's talking so I'm like oh because I'm that same way I need to dump all of this information out so I can capture it later because I I know when I get stressed I'm gonna lose it. So there's a great strategy for our teachers you want to you want to help your kids do some of these things prior to a test again you're still tapping into what do they know you're just kind of accommodating it in a way that I know there's more in your brain than what you may spit out during the test. Let's give them an opportunity to kind of get some of that out right now so then they can kind of utilize that information later. I don't view it as cheating or or anything like that. It's just it's just structuring it slightly differently. So we actually walk away from a test knowing what does the kid know first what did they know when they were very stressed. And those are often two very different things.

SPEAKER_02 53:07

And then if you're able to if you're an extracred kind of teacher I always loved when my teachers would do this for me there would always be a question at the end what is one thing you learned that I didn't ask and let them tell you because then they are like I know this and I'm going to tell you this and they hand in that test and they feel really good about it because the last thing they answer they know they got right I love that too and I think it taps into um just the students almost like I don't know what the word I'm looking for but it's like I took time to memorize this or I studied this and I know it and you didn't ask it.

SPEAKER_00 53:37

But I love whether it's uh multiple choice or just tell me what else is going on in there. Because again, what is the test designed to do it to help us understand how well are you learning and what do you know and um giving a kid enough opportunity to really give us the information that they know. I love that too.

SPEAKER_02 53:51

And then I wanted to talk a little bit about the timing. I know sometimes things have to be timed because you're testing a particular type of knowledge. But if time doesn't truly matter don't make it a big deal and also let them know whenever you're done with your test, this is what I want you to do afterward and then have the thing that you want them to do afterward be something that isn't going to punish the ones who didn't who took the whole class period for the test and then have to take it home.

SPEAKER_00 54:20

So it's not a some the pizza party down the hall is not what we're trying to give a kid. Hey when you finish your test there's pizza waiting for you at the other end of the hall.

SPEAKER_02 54:29

Or when you finish a test do this worksheet whoever doesn't get it done in class you have homework to do yes.

SPEAKER_00 54:35

So give us some examples what might whether it's a early elementary middle whatever you know you want to talk about what might be some of those appropriate things I can think of a couple myself.

SPEAKER_02 54:43

Well March is a reading month so I say pull those books out and read. There you go. And I'm as a reader I'm I loved it when my teachers would do that like yes I can do that when I'm done with my test um or do you have work you have to do for another class? Feel free to grab that from your locker and bring it back and use that to get some of your other work done. So they might still have homework from another class that they didn't get to work on, but you're not adding to that pile.

SPEAKER_00 55:08

And here's some time to get it done. I I'm almost thinking of that same language of like do what you need to do during that time without disrupting others because we have other students in this class that are still taking their test but again kind of structuring in a way that when that test is done you have something to transition right into.

SPEAKER_02 55:24

And if you don't want them going to their locker during the test then you just tell them the day before when you come bring something to do for when you're done and set that expectation very clear.

SPEAKER_00 55:34

And I think we can even say that right before the test hey we're getting ready to take it we're going to do this brain dump activity but just remember before we get started does everybody have what they need to use or do following that test. I think for me as somebody that has a lot of anxiety for the listeners at home that don't know um those things calm my anxieties down like you've you've told me what my expectations are you've given me a chance to get a lot of thoughts out and you've told me after this here's what what you're welcome to do. I don't have to guess I don't have to take a stab in the dark of doing something that then's going to either get me in trouble or I'm gonna disrupt people you've just armed me with some some knowledge as to what I can do when that test is done. Anything else about test anxiety trying to think back to even some of the things that I talked about because I I worked with a lot of students that really struggled in this area.

SPEAKER_02 56:27

The only other thing I can think of is the night before a test is not the night to rearrange your classroom. Keep it the same. Let them walk into the same environment that they learned the material in um and as I'm talking I'm actually really curious what would happen if a teacher when they were teaching things wore the same shirt or the same tie or the same handband on test day as like when they were teaching the core of that stuff. If anybody ever does that let us know how it goes. I'd just be curious if like you see your teacher wearing the same thing what that do because we know there's science behind when the environment is same or similar it helps with recall.

SPEAKER_00 57:09

Kate just tapped into a core memory of mine. This is a real story I was a freshman at St. Clair County Community College you go skips fire up skips and I sat through my first semester of college and it was a math course and I'm not good at math. And I don't know who this person was who decided to show up on the day of our final exam but they sat in my seat. And you know how you come day after day and you're in you'll just develop you know this is a college course but it's like you don't have to sit anywhere particular but John the fever that's his seat because he has sat there every day and I showed up on final exam day and somebody was sitting in my seat I had never seen this person. So I'm like bro you've never come to this class and now you just rocked my whole world that would have been in 2001 and it's 2026 that I'm talking about another podcast. So if you don't think these things matter they do and they matter to me but that might say more about me than anything else but that's a real story about keep them in their seats. But I love that like if you're a teacher and you're like hey go home study we got a big test tomorrow and then that night you get this energy and you want to rearrange your room just understand that there's going to be a real fallout from that and you might collect some data on that too of how did how did students do on this test versus previous ones and you might just find that rearranging the room can wake up after the test. So just keeping some familiarity and some consistency and some routine any other day kids it's just like yesterday let's pull that information out. All right I I am thinking about some things that we talked about with test anxiety of maybe doing a whole class kind of calming strategy or maybe a little bit of a regulation activity. Now I might go so far as to say if you've never done that before maybe it's not the right thing. Not on a right now because again that's something new but if we do practice calming and regulation strategies maybe let's take the temperature of that room down a little bit and um help students kind of just find some sense of calm and then off we go. It's just again giving those kids that opportunity to kind of shake out any of that stuff that's just going to maybe cloud up their brain during that testing situation. Awesome. Anything else on test anxiety Kate not that I can think of all right we're gonna move on we're gonna come back on a future episode I'm quite confident of that. And we'll tap into more strategies and stuff but I don't know I kind of won't I feel like we got like seven or eight different strategies down there which is awesome. Now I want to tap into what is on my note sheet nerdy OT knowledge. Our OTs are nerds just like me so true. See and she said so true. So if you're an OT and you're listening you're like hey I'm not a nerd um you're in the wrong profession because our OTs are are kind of nerdy and respective they are just full of knowledge and information but because it's a it's a little bit different than the information that we typically talk about the nerdiness comes out because there's there's words that they use and there's things they talk about that I'm like what are you talking about? So K I'm going to challenge you right now. I'm gonna ask you to talk about something nerdy. So whether there's these big fancy words that you guys use in your in your world of OT, but then I want you to do something that I feel is a superpower for a lot of our OTs and I know it's a superpower for you too to take some big fancy word and all of this information that we just see and hear and we're like, I don't know what that means. That's crazy. But then talk to us in a way that we can understand it and make sense of what it is that you're actually talking about. Because what I find is I get intimidated by the words people use but then when they explain it well, I'm like, oh that's what they mean. So walk me through something like that.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:47

All right. So we'll go back to motor skills. And so in a lot of my IEPs, a lot of my testing and stuff I'm looking at fine motor precision, visual motor integration and motor planning. And so I just said a bunch of words right there but a lot of people are like okay I don't know exactly what that is you can pick out some words you know. So fine motor precision is precision it's just the really small detailed movements and controlled movements that you use with your fingers. Visual motor integration is your hand eye coordination. So your vision's working your hand is working are they working together? Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:21

Is that like catching a ball I was just gonna say give us some examples and I can take myself with some of those but okay but what might be a sign that a student's struggling with that? What might we pick up on that we go visual motor integration.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:33

So usually without testing you're not entirely sure you see like handwriting is the obvious output where like sometimes just not quite right here. For visual motor they might be a little clumsy.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:45

But then it's okay I need to take a closer look and really pick these pieces apart. So that's when you tap in somebody like I really need a closer look at this because their motor skills just seem off but I don't know what it is. So a lot of times when people like oh they're fine motors I'm like actually it's not fine motor it's motor planning which is your brain is like okay I've got to make this action and it sends all the signals down to your hand you need to grab the pencil this way you need to start moving your arm up this way bring it down go across all of those movements constant feedback going through if there's a disconnect in that pathway the motor planning is off.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:23

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:24

And so you'll see that in your students where um I had a teacher and she was giving her students mazes and we knew the student had a hard time with motor planning. She's like I don't know how she's going to get through like the simple maze A to B because the student looked like okay I know this is the beginning. I know this is the end but just that disconnect could not get it over there. So I'm like highlight the path for her and just have her go on that highlighted path because then she has something to help guide those movements and it still was tricky but it was an accommodation to help.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:55

Perfect. And I love that she used that phrase or that word accommodation is like just something to help guide and support that process. So any other nerdy words that you like to use we talk about proprioception a lot. Say that again proprioception how many of us use that word today we did earlier but go ahead or yes that was yes today.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:14

So proprioception is just um kind of like when I say a child needs proprioceptive input I'm saying they need pressure. So it's got those receptors in your body saying I feel something pushing in on it you kind of know how your joints are moving.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:30

So like when you say that pressure would that be like a weighted vest or something like that or it could be um if you do a weighted vest be really careful with the weight on that um because you don't want to go over a certain percentage. So definitely tap in somebody that is familiar with that.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:43

So there you go as a as a as a school employee or again a parent I can I I don't know why I keep thinking of parents during this episode because we all um you know if you if you have a child at home they may be struggling with certain things. So again I think this episode could probably go beyond you know the school community but if if somebody's starting to talk about whether it's a weighted blanket or a weighted vest that we're now getting into the area where it's really good to tap somebody that's pretty knowledgeable about that because we could almost I don't think do more harm but you can you just have to be careful with it because it is impacting the nervous system.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:16

But you could do like compressions. So I've recommended to families before go and buy like a compression shirt and buy one size smaller than what your child so they've got the tight um and then you can have them wear it for a while. You can have like weighted they make weighted balls and you can have students like roll those weighted balls on the wall so all of that movement like the pushing your arms up you're getting that input the the weight you're getting that resistance through your arms is what they need. We talked about the crunchy food thing. Well crunchy food actually gives you proprioceptive input in your jaw okay so that or gum um again you're just thinking like deep pressure somewhere in the body and that's very calming for the brain.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:02

Okay. Well there you go. So we learned a word together today is a is a podcasting community proprioception. It's a word that I've heard her say enough that I was like let's talk about that word and it's one of those words that I feel like I sound a little bit cool when I feel like I know what I'm talking about which I never really do. So that's why this important podcast for me and I have to spell it. I cannot spell you oh test anxiety I need to dump that out on a piece of paper. I can't believe you just did that on my podcast she asked me to spell proprioception not happening. Um let's talk um I'm gonna flip this we actually talked a fair amount about left-handed students was there anything else that we didn't talk about with left handed students that you want to make sure I'm just like I keep going back to if there's a parent or a teacher or somebody that's got a kiddo that's showing those left handed the signs of being left handed if there's certain materials or tools or resources or maybe ways to approach them that can be helpful specifically for them.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:58

No, we talked Talk a bit about the tools. I think just don't panic and just watch and see what happens. Um, hand dominance is pretty crazy.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:08

Um, the only thing I would say to look at is if you have a child who's like seven and they aren't showing like clear, right-handed, left-handed during like a writing activity. Okay. Um, see if they can cross their midline. And what I mean by that is, can you take your right arm and reach across your body to the left side without turning your whole trunk?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:33

Because sometimes when we have kids who can't cross midline, um, that means that the two sides of the brain aren't fully working together. There's some stuff going on and that can impact dominance. So you can take a peek at that if they're getting older, but dominance, it comes at different ages for different kids. So don't freak out if you had a kindergartner who isn't fully showing it. Give them a little bit more time.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:54

By seven, if they're really struggling to get area. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:57

And then dominance isn't fully in everybody fully right. So for me, I write right-handed, I eat left-handed. When I played sports, I used both. My left eye is dominant, but my right foot is dominant. So I'm all over the board. But I can cross midline just fine. I know my brain's working. It's just, and you'll see that with a lot of kids where because one of the dominance tests, we're like, well, if we want to find their dominant side, let's look. If you tell them to wink, which eye do they wink? Which foot do they use to kick a ball? Well, it's getting more and more across the board. And I don't actually know why that is. If it's on my notebook of things to look into more, but there is a change. But there is a change.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:39

Okay. Well, that's very interesting too. You can come back on this podcast when you figure that out why that's happening. All right. Um, we're gonna now dive into our kind of final two questions. These are two questions that I ask every guest that comes on. And the first one I want to ask you is when you think of what one word you would use to describe, like the ideal educator, the perfect, what is that one thing, the characteristic, a skill set, just a way of being? Some of the words that we've talked about are passion, caring, and engaging. Those seem to be the three words that we've talked about a lot. What word would Kate use to describe maybe that ideal educator?

SPEAKER_02 1:08:15

Curious.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:16

Curious. Oh, I'm curious to know why. Go on.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:19

So I'm gonna start with a story. I was at a conference recently, and one of the presenters is telling the story, and some people may have heard it before. A woman was making her family recipe pot roast, and the first step is cut the ends off the pot roast. And she's like, I wonder why. Like, and so she calls her dad and she's like, Dad, I'm making your pot roast. Why do we have to cut the ends off? He's like, you know, I've just always done that that way. Let's call grandpa and ask him. Call grandpa, hey, we're making the family pot roast. Why do you cut the ends off it? And he's like, That's just how my mom always did. Now longevity runs in his family, so they could call great grandma. All right, say, Great Grandma, we're making the pot roast. Why do we cut the ends off? And she just laughs and says, Because I didn't have a big enough pan to put it in.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:04

So we're doing things for decades and generations just because grandma great grandma didn't have a big enough pan.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:09

Yes. And so it really didn't make a difference. And so part, so where I go with that is just the questioning, there are so many things that we do, and they're good things, but taking that step back, why am I doing this? What do I truly want the students to show me in this moment? And then once you hone in on what actually matters, what do they need to learn? What do I need to show them? All of this stuff, you just answer these questions. And then also the bigger reason for curiosity, be curious about your students. Because I mean, Sarah mentioned on her episode, and they have so much going on outside of school, and we don't know half of it. And just being curious, okay, Kate came in and she's in a really, really bad mood right now. What's going on? Did she get enough to eat? Did she sleep? Like, did she step in the puddle when she got off the bus and now her sock is wet? Like all of these things. Be curious. Don't automatically assume, oh, they're acting out. Sure. Always be curious about your students, be curious about what you're teaching, how you're teaching it. Um, be curious about your coworkers because you're with them all the time. Get to know them.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:17

I love that. That's not what I was expecting to come on your mouth. I don't know why. But I do love it because I don't know. I find I think I'm a curious person by nature too, but there's always more to learn. I've sat in meetings with people, and sometimes it feels like they're they're expecting me to have a lot of answers, but um, I feel like I always have more questions than answers, and maybe that's just that curiosity, curiosity in me of like, let's dig a little bit deeper before we start getting into solutions. Let's figure out how we ended up here, why we ended up here. Um, and sometimes that curiosity can kind of lead down that. So I love that curiosity. I made a note of it here because we're going to use those words over time, and we're gonna kind of see what what people that are on this podcast, the words that they might use. And I'm curious to see if we see a recurring theme with some of them, or if we're we're four for four with new words here. So that's awesome. All right, my last core question, and this is like a very real part of this episode or this podcast in general, is I just feel like what can we do as a community on this podcast to help kind of fill that pipeline of future amazing colleagues and staff members in schools? So here we are, we're talking to an OT that I think the world of, and I want to know from you. We already know, and we I don't have to hash this out on every episode, but we know there's challenges with being a school employee and um working in that educational environment can be difficult and stressful and all of those things. But if I said to you, Kate, tell us why somebody should consider, and maybe you want to take this of why somebody should consider getting into OT to begin with, but then ultimately, why a school setting? Because you could go work in a clinical uh setting, you could work in a hospital setting, you could work with geriatrics, i mean, you could do any number of things, but for some reason you find yourself in a school. Why? Why should our listeners listen to this and go, maybe that's something for me, or maybe my kid that's getting ready to enroll in in college and isn't quite sure what they want to do, or or um, they got a relative that's kind of thinking about that. Why school OT?

SPEAKER_02 1:12:23

So I think you go back to when I talked about how I kind of got into it. OT is so broad in the things that we have to learn to get a clear picture of the person that we're working with. And so, right there, if you're interested in a lot of different things, you have to learn a ton of things to do it, but it's fascinating and you learn more about people throughout the process. And then once you become an OT, you mentioned all these different settings. Um, OTs can work in so many places. Um, OT actually started out as a mental health profession and it shifted gears over the years. Okay. Um, but when I was in grad school, I took the non-traditional route because I came in with a bachelor's already. So everybody in my course, like course load, we all had bachelors. And um, we had biomedical science, psychology, social work, kinesiology, education. We had um some business majors. Um, what was the other one? I can't think now of the other one, but it was just there's a broad spectrum of professions like coming into this. So you put this group of people together, all these different backgrounds. Now we're doing the same thing. And you have all these lenses. Well, I see it in this way, they see it in this way, and we learn from each other. So I mean, going through the process with everybody was really cool and I wanted to come that way. And then for me, I always knew I wanted to work with kids. And I was like, this is a great avenue to work with kids. And um, I've been in other settings, but I feel like the school, I'm with them in the place they spend the most time outside of home. And I'm not necessarily with them the entire day, but I get to have an impact on what that environment is like for them because I know if the school day is rough, I mean, we all know the research about if school doesn't go well, what could potentially happen later? And it's like, what can I do to help it go well? And then also just learning through OT, we tend we like to solve problems and we tend to look at things through slightly a different lens. So I'm constantly looking around. Is there anything I can help this teacher with that they just haven't thought of yet?

SPEAKER_00 1:14:27

Sure. I love that. And that's I guess maybe the the final thing that I would just almost want to say about all OTs that I've worked with. And if you're listening to this and you're an OT, you have made an impact on me because I've worked in lots of different schools and communities. And every time I cross these people, it's like, man, I am learning something. And maybe that's the full circle we've come back because every time I sit with you, I walk away and I'm like, I learned something today. And I learned from so all of my colleagues, it's not that I don't, but something about these OTs, man, they have so many like the breadth of knowledge in there. So um, so I think you did a wonderful job. And I want to thank you for coming on to this podcast. I know every episode we've talked a little bit with our guests about this a little outside of our comfort zone. And you know, we're kind of putting something out there for the world, but I I value so much that you took time to sit down with me after a long day at work and all of those things, and um kind of just helped paint that picture of what NOT does, uh you know, how did you end up in that field? Armed us with a ton of information on strategies uh for our lefties out there. We threw you guys some good information, and then we kind of got maybe down to the heart of the profession with some of the words that we use, and then just kind of selling that profession in the school setting. So if you're a curious person, if you uh like to learn lots of things, if you like to work with kids, all of these kind of pieces form into this amazing role of a school-based occupational therapist. And if that sounds like it's something for you, go get educated and come work with us in schools because we'd be happy to have you if you're like any of our other OTs. So my final thing is thank you to all of our OTs out there for the amazing work you do. And thank you, Kate, for coming on. Anything else that you want to talk about before we end this episode and start planning our next one? No, we've covered it. All right, well, with that, we are gonna wrap up. We this is an hour and 15-ish minutes, which it nobody ever feels like it takes that long, but here we are at about an hour and 15 minutes, and we are gonna sign off. So uh for your host, John LaFever and Kate Koicke, this is wrapping up episode four of the Honoring Educators Podcast. And until next time, we'll see you later. Love you guys.