Episode 6 - Mark Abenth - Retired Principal - A Career Worth Remembering

In this episode, I sit down with my friend Mark Abenth — a retired elementary principal, current professor at Saginaw Valley State University, and someone who has spent over 30 years showing up for students and staff the right way.

We start with The Honoring, where I share why Mark means so much to me — not just as a leader, but as a person. He’s approachable, resourceful, and someone who has always put people first. He’s also part of the reason this podcast exists, after a conversation we had about how much it matters to recognize others publicly.

From there, we get into a really honest conversation about what actually works in education when it’s done well.

🔹 What Does “Great” Look Like?

Mark reflects on his career and paints a picture of what it looks like, feels like, and sounds like when a school is truly working. One of the best parts of this — he brings it back to people. Real people who made a real impact along the way.

🔹 His “Best Day” in Education

Not the answer you’d expect — and that’s what made it so good. A reminder that the moments that stick with us in this profession aren’t always the obvious ones.

🔹 Leadership That Actually Supports People

We talk about what great leadership looks like in action — not theory. Mark shares real examples from his time as a principal and what it actually means to show up for your staff.

🔹 Preparing Future Educators

Now working at SVSU, Mark shares what he’s seeing from future teachers and what he’s trying to instill in them before they ever step into their own classrooms.

🔹 One Word: The Ideal Educator

A simple question with a meaningful answer — and a good reminder of what really matters in this work.

🔹 Why Consider Becoming a Principal?

A real, honest look at the role — the impact, the challenges, and why it might be worth it for someone considering that path.

🔹 Legacy

We close with a conversation about how Mark wants to be remembered and what he hopes people say he stood for when it’s all said and done.

This was one of those conversations that just felt natural — like the kind you’d have sitting in an office or grabbing coffee and talking about the work.

If you’ve ever wondered what it looks like when education is done well… this one’s worth a listen.

👉 To continue the conversation and connect with other educators, head over to the Honoring Educators Facebook page.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:08

All right, everybody. Welcome back to the episode six of the Honoring Educators Podcast. I am John LaFever and I am your host, and I am thrilled to be sitting here with a buddy of mine that is a retired principal, uh, but still can't quite fully embrace retirement. Um, spending time out at SVSU in the College of Education, I am here today with a great educator and a good friend, Mark Abenth. Mark, how are you doing? Pretty good. This is new for me. So it's new for all of us. That's been the common theme. The people that I'm talking to, we are not podcast aficionados. So we're all learning together. So uh before we dive in, I'm just gonna kind of lay the foundation here. We are in Mark's basement. So uh we did a she shed episode with Sarah. I hung out with my friend Jessica McKee in her living room. Today we're in Mark's basement. And this is gonna be a tough one for me, folks, because I'm I'm a kind of a sports guy. His basement is full of like it's like a baseball museum down here. So I'm hit, I'm sitting here trying to talk to my buddy and focus on an actual podcast, but I got really cool pictures and it's just a really cool vibe down here. So perfect spot to record an episode. So uh uh I've been doing check-ins before we before we really dive in. How are you feeling, Mark?

SPEAKER_01 1:26

Pretty good. If we're gonna go zones of regulation, which I know is pretty common. Um I'm feeling pretty green. It's a Friday, it's been a good week. Um, you know, a little bit of uh a little yellow since I'm not used to having a microphone in my face, but we'll try it. All right.

SPEAKER_00 1:43

Well, I'm always a little bit yellow myself, but it's like you said, it's Friday afternoon. Um, this tells you how much I like Mark and how much I enjoy doing this podcast. It is Masters Friday. I could be home sitting there watching the Masters, but here I am with you. So I am tickled to be uh sitting down and spending some time with my buddy Mark today. So um, as you know, Mark, um we're gonna have to embrace this kind of awkward little chunk of time here where I just usually I want people at home to know who I'm sitting with and you know why you're sitting there. So uh we'll kind of dive into the honoring, and then once that's done, get your hands up the awkwardness, and then we're gonna let you kind of just tell some stories. How does that sound? Perfect. All right. So, like I said, I'm sitting here with my buddy Mark Abenth. Um, when I got to know Mark, he was a principal at Sherwood Elementary in Saginaw, Michigan, which happens to be just down the road. And um, in my former role at Saginaw ISD as a behavior consultant, principals from around the county might contact me and say, hey, we got some stuff going on. Can you just stop on over and give us a hand? And Mark was somebody that I got to know and uh spent some time with him and his awesome staff. So shout out to the Sherwood staff for those that you know always welcomed and um supported me when I came in and treated me so well. Um Mark ran that building and had an amazing staff while he was there, but I would pop in there and we'd do observations and kind of sit with the team and um really try to problem solve a number of things kind of related to behavior, social, emotional stuff with with kiddos that were having pretty, you know, pretty significant challenges at the time. So that's how I got to know Mark. And then from there we just kind of developed a friendship. And um, the the one thing that I want to just kind of say off the top is this is an air quotes, people, but Mark is pretty just like a normal guy. He's just in air quotes a normal guy. Um and that's what I love about him. You can just pop into his office and get his ear for a few minutes uh in between meetings or whatever, and just have a really great conversation. He's super easy to talk to. And I think that will shine through during this episode unless he gets really nervous. Um, but for the most part, he's a he's a really easy guy to talk to. So I'm excited about this conversation. Uh another way I might describe Mark as resourceful, um, I always feel like there was certain times when people might feel like it's waving the white flag or it's a sign of weakness to be like, I gotta call somebody in and try to get some additional support there. But he was always um he he didn't lack any hesitancy to pick up the phone, shoot an email, and say, hey, you know, I need some additional support, or uh some team members might need some additional support. And that's really what it came down to is support. So I always appreciated that about him is you know, he wasn't gun chied to reach out and say, hey, we got some stuff going that we could definitely use any additional support because really it came down to how do we best support the kids and how do we best support our staff? And that was kind of Mark's role in that case. So um just a really great, a really great principle in that respect. But the word support just comes to mind as you know, what can I do to support my people? Um now in in more in today's day and age, the last couple of years, uh since he's retired. How many years has it been he's retired? Two? This is almost two years. Okay, so almost two years, and that would make sense. But now he's doing some workout at SVSU, and he's got some awesome um colleagues out there that have again welcomed and invited me into their classrooms at times. I I do like a little almost a seminar with their group uh a couple times a year. I'll go out and um it's you know, you guys hear me use the word bucket filler a lot on Facebook. It's bucket filler Friday today. So um it's just kind of my way of saying things that feel good, that that make you kind of appreciate the profession you're in and the world that you're living in. Um, and when I see Mark and I see his students at SVSU, you walk in and there's just an energy almost. Now, oftentimes it's an evening class on like a Tuesday. So if there's a lack of energy, it's because it's an evening class on Tuesday or Thursday, and it's like people are a little bit burned out. But people in that class seem to be having a good time. And I guess that's one thing I would say about Mark is in one way or another, he's gonna he's gonna engage with his students or staff in a way that's fun and engaging. And uh, I can really feel that when I'm in when I'm in that room there at SVSU. So that's another thing that I just think is awesome. Um in a weird, weird way, this podcast was gonna happen no matter what, because I just kind of made up my mind and I stamped this thing and I said, I just gotta do it. Um, but he'll know what I'm talking about. There was a time right before I started this podcast, and I mean right before. And I think I may have talked about this briefly on another episode, but Mark shared something on Facebook that he felt like meant a lot to him. And at SVSU, one of the deans, maybe, or uh one of the administrators in the College of Ed or in one of the um departments, put up a whiteboard and a marker and basically encouraged students to take a moment and just write the name of somebody that's made a positive impact on them as a student. So there's all these names. It's almost hard to even see. You've got to zoom in to like hit every name. And Mark shared this and he said, How wonderful did that feel to see that a student took time out of their day to put his name on the wall. And I remember seeing that because that is a public display of recognition there. And I remember seeing that, and it was late at night when I saw it. And it it like gave me this huge sense of relief because one of the main things that I really struggled with before I started this podcast is this idea that I'm gonna publicly recognize people because that can feel awkward, it can feel a little bit uh unnerving. So a lot of people don't like that light on them. Um, and I get that. But for Mark to have made that post, I basically said, you know, these type of things don't happen very often. And when they do, it does feel really good. It gave me this very deep sense of relief to say, all right, it is time to go now. Because here I got a good friend of mine, somebody I look up to and respect a lot in education. And he's kind of saying, this is okay to put somebody's name out there and say you did matter. And that's the whole point of this podcast. So, in a very weird way, it was like this launching pad was that weird little post. So I texted him that night. I'm like, bro, we got to talk about that because that mattered to me. And we've talked about it a few times since then, and I think I've talked about it on this podcast. So I don't have to labor over it. But um a couple last things here, you know, regarding Mark. You know, again, when I when I worked with him, um, the only the only building in in Saginaw that I really worked with, Mark was Sherwood. And you know, you go in there and it's a it's a big building. And I work in an elementary school now with like 325 kids. And Mark, I think he said about 600. So, you know, you're almost double the size of the building I'm working in. And when you get that many kids, that many staff members, that many paras, that many everything, there's a lot, a lot of moving pieces in these buildings. And there's so much to kind of manage and kind of support throughout the day that um, you know, I take my cap off too, I really do, because you know, getting back into a local district now, you start to feel and see some of the the the intricacies that you maybe don't appreciate when you're spending time at you know at a consultant level at the ICT where you pop in and you leave, you pop in and you leave. Well, now at St. Charles Elementary, I'm there all day, every day. Right. And so I get to appreciate wow, you know, when there's challenges to be had, and there always are in every building. Um, there is no getting away from it. That is your building, that is your staff's building. And and that's why I guess you know, when you call people into support, it's like, hey, we're here all day, every day. We'll take any support we can get for some of these. Um, but again, I just remember thinking that building, the way it laid out, the unique nature of it, so many amazing staff members, so many amazing students. But again, it's a big machine. And um I just have a lot of appreciation for kind of how we operated that that building and supported his staff. So um the last thing I guess I'm gonna say is Mark is an education nerd. Um, he laughs, but it's true, and that's why I like him. Um, this podcast will feel very natural, I think, for us, other than the fact that we got a microphone sitting between us because he and I talk shop all the time. Like we'll get together, you know, we we'll talk baseball, we'll talk all, you know, family and all these things, but ultimately we're gonna start getting really nerdy on, you know, how does education working right now and what's going great and what's not going great. And yeah, we may have figured a couple things out, but there's a whole bunch that we have not figured out. So let's help each other kind of tackle some of those things. And um, so he's just very good at talking shop. And um he'll he'll send me a message about a book he's reading or a podcast he listened to, or something that you know is kind of helping him be almost a lifelong learner. So again, it's just one of those um those aspects of him and and him as a person that I've I've gotten a lot of benefit out of because he's tipping me off to things and and teaching me things and telling me things. So it's just been a really cool relationship that he and I have developed. So um I'm sure more of this kind of talk will come up throughout the episode, but for now I'm gonna kind of start to coast into this. I just want Mark, I want you to relax. I know talking is very hard for you. You're very nervous. That's sarcasm. Yeah, I'm a shy church mouse. He's a shy church mouse now. So I hope he's just in his comfort zone, and I hope you guys get to kind of see and appreciate the mark that I've gotten to know over all the years because he's a great guy. And uh, so that's who I see day in and day out. And I am really glad that. Well, I'd say I'm glad that you're here, but I'm actually here because I'm at your house. So I'm I'm glad you invited me in to sit down with an episode. It's been gonna be fun. It will be. So again, I like to do a double check. Are you any more green or any more yellow after yeah?

SPEAKER_01 11:28

Not a big fan of hearing things about me, so you put me more yellow.

SPEAKER_00 11:33

That's all right. Well, you'll throw it. I'm sure you'll you'll talk about people and honor them in this. Yeah, I got no problem doing that. No, and I have no problem doing it either. So I just did it for 10 minutes honoring you. So much that's what we do. So, anyway, um over the course of Mark's career, which I think we talked about right before we started recording, 32, 33 years in education, Mark has probably seen a little bit of everything, but the gist that I want his episode to take is when it's going great. What does that look? What does that feel like? What does that sound like? So, question number one is pretty much that, Mark. Okay. What does great look like in a building, in a district, uh as an educator? And it could be different roles, different, different places you've spent in your career. Sure. What does great look like? Talk to me.

SPEAKER_01 12:23

So that's a very vast question. Um, and I'm not just talking about a big building like Sherwood, I'm talking about just the world of education. And I think we sometimes stereotype, you know, great needs to be just what's happening in the classroom or just what's happening, you know, in the public. Or um when I think of great or what makes uh a school great, you need to look at maybe the the the trying to think of a word for this, the the non the stuff that you don't always look at. I know that's a horrible way to do this, but you know, first podcast. Um so you know, you look at what is the public seeing when they walk in the door, you know, and then you think main office, you think secretarial administrative assistant type of a world. And and great there is, you know, how do you make sure that everybody feels welcome, regardless of who and and where they're from and how they you know what they do and don't know. Um, you know, and I've I've scared a lot of secretaries in my life. I drove them nuts. I have a tendency to be a little over the top with things. And um so I would, you know, I would put them through the ringer sometimes. And and uh and I had some that were you know a little worried about me, and then but then there's some uh Sherry Giles, I'm gonna shout out her. She was a secretary in Ithaca, um, kind of welcomed me in. I was brand new to that area when I got there. Um, Amy Greenwood, who was at Sherwood uh until just recently, and Gregory also at Sherwood. I I had some secretaries that were just amazing, and they put up with my over the top standing on the roof, singing songs, Broadway type shows. All the normal stuff. Yeah, all the normal stuff. Yeah, when I used their quotes earlier, that's what I was talking about. And and just you know, they're the they're that face when you walk in, and they're also the ones that would present calm at a time when maybe the building wasn't calm, um, and just be that grounding force for you've got a whole lot of constructive chaos going on down the hall, but when the phone rings there, they help you.

SPEAKER_00 14:37

And you have had some good ones, and that it's funny because I've talked about the importance of everything you just said about when you walk through the front door, like that's typically not always, but typically the first person you see and how important that is. And um, walking in your building, it was always hi, how are you? Welcome. You know, it's just like it felt good walking into your building. So I'm echoing everything you just said.

SPEAKER_01 14:55

Yeah. Um, you know, great means I had to have somebody who was, and I know this is completely stereotypical, but I needed a good cop in the building. There had to be somebody who, if I'm gonna be the one that has to be there on the rainy day and do the suspension or have the tough conversation with the parent, you need a good cop. And for me, those were because I never had an assistant principal until the very end of my career. Um, those were social workers slash counselors. And, you know, I think of Donnie Shoemaker, who I worked with in two different districts, um, Tracy Hagar, who I worked with for a short time in in uh staggered township.

SPEAKER_00 15:37

Yeah, but I remember I remember Tracy in our time together too.

SPEAKER_01 15:39

Justin Harper was an amazing uh counselor for us. And they were the ones that not only would they be the ones to to do to fill that role of the behavior support person, but also the ones that I could go to and say, Hey, am I going too far with this? Or have them come to me and say, Hey, there's something going on you don't know about. Um, and they really helped to ground me and taught me a whole lot more because my first role models as a principal were more the authoritarian style principals. Um they taught me, you know, that it's okay to be wired the way I was because I always kind of felt bad being the bad guy. I can identify with that. They really helped me out. And but also I had some, you know, I think what makes you great is your peers. And when you're an administrator, sometimes that's a lonely club. Um, my first principal as a teacher in Pincata was Maureen Fenton. Um she she told me on the first day I was a teacher with her, she said, I'll tell you when you've screwed up. I'll tell everybody when you've done something right. And I've never forgotten that. Just that quote of, okay, if I need to have a tough conversation with John LaFever because he's kind of done gone road or something, I'm gonna pull him in and close the door. I'm not gonna publicly shame, I'm not gonna call him out. I mean, it was um, you know, my first, my other first principal, because I was a traveling teacher, was John Sanford, who's still in Pinkaning. Um, and I'm wondering if I keep teasing him as to how long he's gonna stay. But he he taught me to have fun. He taught me the you don't always have to wear a time type of a feeling of being a principal.

SPEAKER_00 17:22

And his name is John John Sanford. Well, that stuck John because that's what I was part of my intro, was like Mark knows how to have fun, and uh that's one thing that stands out very clearly with him. So shout out to John. I've never met him, but um, what he taught you and instilled in you is absolutely stuck. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:38

Um, and then you know having an assistant principal was weird for me. Um, and I had um I was lucky enough, we we hired Jane Chase as an assistant principal, but because of her high skill level, she got stolen away from me to be the lead principal at Weiss Elementary in less than a year. Yep. Um but then you know, sometimes fate works. And when Michelle Sprague came, she's awesome too. And while she has nothing to do with any of the reason that I retired, it was kind of that feeling that you'd get, you know, it's almost like a movie type. I knew it was okay if I left because I knew that she was going to be able to take over, and just that knowledge that okay, I can go now was really comforting to me because it was difficult. When I did go, it was difficult to leave. And then, of course, you look at what makes a building great is just that that I'm also a systems nerd. I'm the air traffic control color code. We're gonna walk the schedule to see if there's any traffic congestions. Um just having that systems view of what a school is. Um great means that if I'm out of the building, the place runs. That's a great litmus test for you. I don't have to be standing there at two o'clock for it to be successful. I'll be there, but if I'm not there, it'll be okay. And I was very big on systems and and that logistic world. And uh finally, as far as this goes, you need teachers. And you know, you talk about teachers that have amazing classroom management. Um, Jessica Marshall, who's still at Sherwood, um uh Denise Rivard, who has recently retired. I believe she now works for Great Expectations. Okay. Um and just teachers that you knew had control, not selfishly because they kept stuff off my desk, but just the it was like watching a magician sometimes. And and you know, because this is what you do.

SPEAKER_00 19:54

A teacher that has absolute control over classroom management is just a sight to see it is, it's it's like poetry in motion watching it, and there's so many moving pieces that go into it. 99% of it's probably stuff that happened before you ever walked in the door that lay in the foundation. But you're right, when you see it, and that's part of that question, that's why I'm glad you hit that, because that's like define great or or paint a picture of what great is. That's like, how do you even describe it when you walk into a classroom like what you're describing? Where you're like, holy smokes, this is this is a wonderful thing here.

SPEAKER_01 20:28

Yeah, I mean, teachers that are amazing at the the academic or the curriculum, teachers that can reach the the accelerated child and the the child who can't read in second grade. And um, I think of uh Sarah Smith in Ithaca, Kelly Reed, who I ended up um coincidentally working in two different districts with over the course of my career. Um, you know, Diana Patterson, who unfortunately recently passed away. These people could take any curriculum and make it engaging and relevant and rigorous and and just find the kid where they are and take them uh as far as they can. You gotta have connection to kids and be able to connect with the kid who's of trauma, of poverty, of wealth in every sense and make them all feel like they're part of your family. Um, Faith Paitz, who is currently at Sherwood, Elise Morgan, um, and I think of Ashley Kaufman, who's recently left and went to Freeland. Um they were the ones that would advocate, or if some other staff member would be kind of frustrated with a with a child, they would be the ones like you don't know the way I know. Uh and because they took the time to do that. And then the trickiest one I think in my career with teachers is how do you connect to the family? And I don't mean like send a newsletter, I mean like really, really connect. And and you've got teachers out there that and I'm starting to see an upswing, they're doing a better job. And some of it you can say is the world of technology has made it easier, but that's not to talk about. I'm not talking about I use Dojo or I use Remind or I have a S'more newsletter. I'm talking about people who reach out and find out and know and face to face or over the phone. Um, you know, people like Tim Katepa, who is still in our county. I love Tim Um, Kathleen Resmer and Pinkaning did home visits when they weren't. I mean, people were shunning away from them. Yeah. And other than preschools, people really don't do them anymore. Um, I've kind of lost track uh of Pinkaning staff on a day-to-day basis, but up until a few years ago, she was still doing home visits um as a kindergarten teacher. Um, Teresa Coppin at Sherwood, Doreen Howell, who is now in Clio, they would know things about families that I have known for four years that I didn't know. You didn't know, and they knew them before conferences. Um, just that ability to really connect.

SPEAKER_00 23:03

Do you know any of the mechanisms? Is it just more frequent communication or was there any tricks up their sleeve that you want to share with us?

SPEAKER_01 23:11

You know, um with some of them, it was if you're not gonna come to a conference, well, yeah, I'll I'll try and catch you next week. But with this group, I'm gonna call you in real time. You're five minutes late. I need you to get here. And if you can't get here, where can I meet you? I'll come to your work if you can't get out. Um, you know, there were a couple of teachers I had, pinking's a rural town. Yeah. Um, we had a mom who was a bartender at the bar around the corner. And out there it was the school and the bar um and a cornfield between them. And she couldn't get there. And one person in the room said, Well, then I guess she's not coming. And this teacher said, Let's go. Because how can we tell her, making this much money, you know, she can't afford to take a shift off, but she cares about her kid. So we meet them where they are. That's that's the the bottom line for the teachers that really the great, they meet them where they are and they make it easy for them to do that. It's a great, great example.

SPEAKER_00 24:19

Yeah, that's a great example. All right. Um, as we're talking about great, you know, in 32, 33 years, like you had to have had some moments, like you're very good. You're very good at this podcast because that idea of like it's easier to shine the light on others in the and the great work that they do than shining it on myself. Yeah, he can go all day on that. But start talking about Mark's greatness, then he gets a little gunshot. But but let's talk about for you, there has to be some moments in your 30s, some years where you felt like, and whether it was something you did or just this environment that you found yourself in or a circumstance, your best day or days as an educator.

SPEAKER_01 25:05

On some levels, that's like asking me which kid I love the most. Um but there was, I will say there's one day that stands out. Um, and it's gonna sound really ironic that I'm picking this date. Um, my best day was the day we shut down for Covert. Weird answer. There's gotta be more to it than that. Um, and I'll try to give you the short reader's digest version. Um I believe it was March 12th. There had been, you know, rumors and this might be shutting down, and the basketball tournament might not happen, and the Big Ten basketball championship isn't gonna be that stuff started to I was in Grand Rapids at the McCall State Technology Conference. And of course, there's buzzing around the building. Some districts are talking about going home early. Some people that we were in a meeting with they got a phone call that said they had to return to their districts immediately. It just got weird fast, almost like a movie level of something's happening. And we got the call that the governor had shut down the districts until after spring break. So at the time, we thought we had three weeks now that we have to plan. Um, the next morning I left Grand Rapids and I was driving to Saginaw to return. And at the time I did not have an assistant principal. So the building was a buzz without me in the building. And I spent most of the drive on a conference call with the other principals in Saginaw Township. And we were planning, okay, we're gonna be um, this will be the plan for instruction. This is gonna be the plan. Let's have let's have teachers and support staff make a whole bunch of copies, let's put some packets together, we're gonna get some ideas. And and so that was the discussion. But the night before, I skipped all of my sessions at the conference. Um, and I sat on my computer and I quickly built a Google site. Uh actually back then I think it was a Weebly page. Uh I called it the Sherwood Home Field Advantage page. And I started loading up stuff for my parents, stuff for my kids, different things that we were going to do to support them as we were going to be shutting down. And I remember clicking over to talk to the secretary multiple times, clicking over to talk to teachers who were texting me on the side um as I'm driving. And anyways, I I get back, and there was just this adrenaline kick that I was on because it was like I was we were in a world that no one had ever been in. Everyone knows that. Yep. Um, but I was the one they were all looking at. And there was this feeling of 50% absolute panic, and 50% we're gonna be able, let's do this, this is gonna be fine. And I I just I remember coming in and okay, you take care of this, you take care of this, I'm gonna go meet. And the underlying tone of some of this was there's a hundred at the time, there was about a hundred staff members total at Sherwood. Well, only 40% of them were contract salary. So now we had a growing group of hourly employees that were scared to death. You're shutting us down. What does that mean? And it still gets me a little weird here, but probably the best moment of my career was walking in. I asked as I was pulling into the parking lot, I asked them all to assemble in the lounge and being able to walk in and say, the district is gonna pay you for this whole time. And just oh, it was like watching them melt. Yeah, and some of them were immediately texting their husbands and their spouses, and and just that feeling of being able to say, We got you. Um, and then turning that into okay, we had to be gone by five o'clock. The district said if we catch you in the building after five o'clock on this date, you're gonna be in trouble. So you need to be organized. And I remember standing at the door kicking the last couple amazing teachers out. Um, and I sat in my car on the Wi-Fi for another hour or so working on that site, contacting people, answering questions of parents that were pulling into the parking lot. Um, it's the weirdest answer I know to your question. But when I got done and when I could find it, I'll be honest, I couldn't feel like I was so full of adrenaline. It was like we've talked about before the trauma. I couldn't like I was shaking to the point where there was so much going on that day. But when everyone, when I knew that everybody was home and everybody was informed, at least for what we knew at the time. It was best that was one of those I didn't realize it in the moment, but looking back, that was the day that I can say I mattered the most individually in the entire umbrella, the whole day. Yeah, um, was exhausting. Oh, yeah. But and in the moment I didn't really recognize it because I was just too busy making the decisions.

SPEAKER_00 30:29

You were too busy reinventing education with your awesome staff. I'm like, how do we do this? Because that was such a weird time, and oh yeah, it's such an interesting answer. I was not expecting that, obviously, but I can appreciate where you're coming from because you know, you get put to the test in that moment. I remember I had a very different role I was performing at that time, and but watching the leaders above me kind of help, you know, the composer and orchestrating that and saying, all right, we're gonna do this and you're gonna do that. And yeah, there was a an energy, but again, I'm looking at it from a different perspective than this is our building, this is our staff. And I think that's a beautiful thing. Like the one moment that you almost get a little choked up is like when you get to be the bearer of good news to let people know we got you, so we're all we're all doing this together.

SPEAKER_01 31:15

And they and they tell you as a principal that the best days of being a principal, the best feeling, the warm fuzzy, is the day you get to say, John, we're gonna hire you to be a teacher. Like the day you bring that teacher in to hire them is a good feeling. This day was all of that gone, was that feeling of what I'm gonna say is gonna change 50th your life for now, at least for the temporary now.

SPEAKER_00 31:42

Well, and at that moment, there were so many um unknown variables, like the whole world. I mean, anybody that went through it, especially if you're already in the education, like it was there was no blueprint for that. No, so like there's so many moving pieces, but to have one question answered and have a positive outcome versus that's gonna add to my worries, but to be able to take that off the table and say, we got that. So shout out to you and the team that was able to make that happen. So, well, interesting answer there for best days. I might start using that question more often because from each perspective, it'll be very interesting to hear what's your best day as an educator. So I might I might have to keep a note on that one. Very nice. All right, so let's move into my next question is kind of, and again, this could be from your perspective as a leader, but also from your perspective as uh a staff member, maybe working underneath, whether it be a principal or a superintendent, but what is great leadership look like? Um and kind of how does that why does that matter when you have great leadership? So I'm looking at you as a building leader. What's what is what's the deal with great leadership and how it really, really matters?

SPEAKER_01 32:55

Well, people who've been in education for a little bit or for a lot, they recognize that leadership is huge. Um, we all know that teaching is an open job market right now. And so we have people who are really good at what they do. But if I'm not gonna feel appreciated and I'm not gonna feel supported, then I'm gonna take $500 less a year and work across the street. That's the world we live in now. And luckily, most places have realized that that means a change in how you run your building, shared leadership, uh, professional learning communities, things like that have become much more prevalent in the last 10 years than they were prior. Um, and some of that is just the generational change. But some of that I think is the recognition that if I don't treat this person right, they're going somewhere else. And if they work in a in a discipline that is highly sought after as it is, high school science, high school math, special ed, anywhere, yeah, you can you can go somewhere else and make less money or more money, but you'll be better treated. So I think for me, I I think of leadership as good leadership is someone who's gonna stand in front of you, next to you, and behind you. Um, and I've used that analogy in the past. Um, for me, you know, I'm gonna I was always accused of being teacher-friendly, um, and I don't apologize for that. Um, but I want to stand in front of my staff, not just teachers, everybody. Um, when they're put in unfair situations, when um somebody is an angry parent is going off the rails. Um, my job is to support them and smooth the path for them because teaching is certainly not an easy job. No, so stand in front of them on those days when they need to be shielded a little bit. Um, stand next to them when we plan things and you know, the systems I mentioned earlier, that was a committee at Sherwood. That was not me. Uh with culture and climate. And we would nerd out. Yeah, you talk about me nerding out, it was we did surveys, we did time things, we had people with stopwatches on the playground to see how long it took us to get from here to here. Um, stand next to them while we do these things, have shared leadership. We had a thing at Sherwood where if John LaFever was the first grade grade level chair, every two years we rotate that leadership because we don't want to build a committee or a group in the building that becomes power-hungry or clickish or whatever word you want to put in there, um, you know, be part of it. I was always one, and I'm not, you know, people that have known me for 100 years, I was not a classroom teacher, I was physed out in health. But when we would add new curriculum, if I'm gonna sit in the PD and I'm gonna evaluate these teachers and I'm gonna tell them that they have to teach this new ELA series, well then I better have some skin in the game. So I remember when uh Sang and Tatchip went through a new ELA series four or five years ago, maybe longer now. Um I scheduled out and I went and did a math or a writing lesson in each room. I did a reading lesson in each room, I did a phonics lesson in each room because I wanted them to see that I'm not just sitting back telling them what to do. Um, but I think the biggest stand next to them for me in my career was um while they were trying to teach kids how to read on Zoom and having all the COVID fun, I ran a morning meeting daily TV show, and I did it for 200 episodes. And it's it's in the can now, but I've got a granddaughter now who's about one, and we've joked about putting an episode a day on because I don't live in the same state as she does. Um, but just if the if I'm gonna tell them they have to get online and teach, then why don't I do something too? Yeah, it was fun. I still don't know how I got it all in and was able to do it all, but it was fun. I know ball doing it. That's cool. Um and then stand behind them. If if a teacher of mine wants to take a risk or try a new thing or get a new tool or resource, the joke for years. If it's legal and I can afford it, we're gonna try it. Um, and and that's where you get innovators like Ashley Trado. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 37:27

I almost used her name earlier. Shout out to Ashley.

SPEAKER_01 37:30

Ashley can justify if it's good for a kid, Ashley will find a way to do it.

SPEAKER_00 37:36

She will she'll make your point.

SPEAKER_01 37:38

Uh Haley, Haley Hancock, or he stand when she got married. Um, she would find a way to advocate it. But if it's if it's gonna be helping for kids, and we can't justify why not to do it, other than it was never done that way, uh, then why aren't we trying it? Yeah, so just kind of stand behind them when they take risks and be there to catch them if it fails, sure. Um, and be there to give them the credit if it doesn't. Um, and then you know teacher appreciation. This is another thing that kind of started this with you and me. I made it, I made, I put a comment on one of your posts. And I get it. I I know that there's some really, really good administrators out there that'll roll their eyes and maybe tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. But a candy bar in your mailbox for what teachers go through um was never my style. Um, so my I liked being able to sit back and watch as teachers knew that they mattered. Um so for me, I was never uh, you know, I love you a mint and and have a mint in their in their mailbox. I I would uh for 22 years, and you talk about my basement for 22 years, I got the Tigers to donate 300 tickets to me a year, and we would let the staff go to a game with their families. Um, I still get questions about hey, can we still do that? Um one year I wrote an article in the local paper. I did this in Ithaca, and everyone has like a good educator is humorous, a good educator is inventive, and each word I attached to a teacher that and then explained why they were humorous, why they were inventive. So a characteristic of them characteristic of them personally that went into the newspaper. Um that's cool. Uh during let's see.

SPEAKER_00 39:37

Well, hold on, I want to pick I want to piggyback on that because in order to write something, especially if it's going in a newspaper, you gotta know what you're talking about. So that was fun though. But but I guess what I'm getting at is like you it's like it says to me, if if you're gonna write something about me, you you've paid attention, you've picked up on, you've observed, you've watched, you've listened. And I think even just that communicates something to your staff like, wow, he's really noticed something about me. Um so I think even just the the ability to do what you did speaks a lot about you know the relationships and things like that.

SPEAKER_01 40:12

And teachers don't like a lot of spotlight. I know you've talked about that many times.

SPEAKER_00 40:17

That's why I was nervous about starting this podcast.

SPEAKER_01 40:19

But they they they were okay if their name was listed with everybody else. Um, but it wasn't just a hey, we love all our teachers. It was we love this teacher this way, we love these. Um my first year when I got to Sherwood, there was a lot of this cloud of data and scores. And so I made a a video for them on their last day of school, and it started with data recap, and everyone just alone no. But the video was actually the students talking about how impactful they had been on them and how this teacher did this and this teacher did that, and the data we talked about were the kids. The data shows that you did a good job.

SPEAKER_00 40:57

Ah, well, I love that.

SPEAKER_01 40:58

Yeah, so we always look at charts and graphs old technology. It was done on iMovie, I think, but um, it's really cool. We had students write letters to them during COVID when they couldn't when they couldn't get out. But I think the two that I'm most well, one stands alone, but um one year, and I I don't know where I even got the idea. One year I wrote a letter to every teacher's parents and sent it to them. And if their parents weren't alive, I sent it to their children or siblings. Um I still hear back from some people on that one. Um, I was told that one, I wasn't able to make it unfortunately, but I was told that one has been framed in the house and was up at the funeral when the parent passed. Wow. Um, but again, you need to know you matter and that what you're putting in, because you're not in it for the money. No.

SPEAKER_00 41:56

I say that when I'm at when I'm at SPSU talking to Mark's class, I'll always say that. Like if you're sitting in this room right now thinking that you're gonna get filthy rich just off the back of education, uh, I got news for you. Yeah, so there's got to be other things that we get out of this profession. Sure. And there's a ton of them. That's when I started a podcast with people, like you can share what those things are.

SPEAKER_01 42:17

Yeah. Um the most time-intensive one though, um, had to be the one I did in 23. And that's when Michelle Sprague was the assistant principal by then, so I didn't have to do it alone. But, you know, we talked about the candy bar, you know, I know I bring that up a lot, but if I buy a candy bar, Sherman's a huge building. If I buy a full-size candy bar for every teacher, I'm over 150 bucks. So we came up with, you know, we going back to COVID again, that class, the 1920 school year, those kids left, were ripped from these teachers, and couldn't see them, didn't get a goodbye. So in 23, we put together this, we hatched this plan to have all of the kids, one, I'm sorry, one kid from each teacher, yeah, write a letter. Hey, I you did okay. Because our teachers always thought we heard them. Yeah, we we left them hanging, we didn't finish the job. You touched me, you affected me, you were my teacher, I miss you. I'm glad you were my teacher. And as these letters started rolling in, we went, hey, what if let's get them to come? So the end result turned out to be uh 45 kids. I pulled together a fake staff meeting in the theater, and 45 kids and their families. Fake staff meeting is fake staff meeting.

SPEAKER_00 43:44

That's scary business.

SPEAKER_01 43:45

Um 45 kids and their parents were in the gym with a framed copy of the letter they wrote and a rose. And I showed a video of the kids with their letters, and the teachers were already very emotional just watching that. And then I had the families crash the meeting from different angles, and that cost me $64 in roses, period. A lot of time, a lot of logistics, but impactful. And you know, not just a hey, you're doing a great job type of a post. It was I part of me thinks I don't know how we pull it off, but we pulled it off. And just and that's the way I can't afford a million dollars. I can't give you a world with no behaviors and no new curriculum and social media that loves every teacher. I can't do that. But maybe I can tell you that you're getting paid for the next three weeks, and I can tell you that you matter and or tell your parents that you matter. Things like that. Yeah. Um organize it so your kids that you've spent so much time pouring into that they can tell you you're matter too. And for me, the time put into that was a lot more than going having Amazon deliver me 150 candy bars. But man, yeah, just to be able to sit back and to watch those things come together was very fun.

SPEAKER_00 45:11

That's so cool. If you have any pictures, videos, or anything that you would be comfortable sharing of that, when this ends up on Facebook, if you have anything to throw in there, that'd be really cool to kind of see because I can almost take myself into that space right now. Teachers going, what's going on? And then we went from a fake staff meeting to now I'm seeing pictures of these kids reading, or you know, but then all of a sudden they flood into the room. I have to believe that had some waterward moments.

SPEAKER_01 45:36

Well, there was a monetized video for the data meeting and then the the roses. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:41

Very cool. Very cool.

SPEAKER_01 45:43

Anything else on that one, Mart? No, I I'm I mean a good leader again. I mentioned earlier. If I'm out of the building, place the place runs. Um and it's not a it's not a figurehead type world because I just don't think those schools work.

SPEAKER_02 46:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:02

What about in your career? Any leaders that you worked underneath of, or somebody that, you know, whether it was a superintendent or a principal, um, that you walk away and you go, hey, now my career is done. Like I still look back. I mean, you've already mentioned some people, but is there any administrators that you worked underneath of that you said, boy, that leadership style was good for me? Yeah, well, I've touched a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 46:22

I mean, Maureen Fenton and John Sanford and Pinkanny. Um, but and this is a stereotype, but for the most part, superintendents are not wired to be elementary education. So for the most part, my superintendents in my career have kind of left us alone because they just trust that we'll be able to be our own person. And and again, they don't necessarily, I all of them don't necessarily identify with the elementary curriculum, the elementary world. So they didn't really want to be in the middle of us. Um, you know, the last print, the last superintendent I worked for, Jamie Crest, was really good at saying, all right, Mark, you like to walk really close to the line. If it's good for kids, we're gonna let you run with it a little bit. Um, but just people that gave us the trust and the respect to say, you know, kind of like I did with my teachers. You know, you know better than I do about teaching this math. So I'm gonna let you teach this math.

SPEAKER_00 47:24

It's legal and we can afford it.

SPEAKER_01 47:25

Mark, you know better about running an elementary school than I do. We're gonna let you run with it. But you're telling the playing fast and loose with things because we're right here. Yeah. Um, you know, my first superintendent was John Felski, um, and he's on the west side of the state now, but he taught me that schools are a business and that you know you can do all the tree hugging, touchy-feely fun stuff, fun fair stuff in the world, but it's a business. And at the end of the day, you've got goals and objectives and budgets. And so he he gave me that lens um when I first started my career, which is an important lens.

SPEAKER_00 48:04

Oh, it's easy to get carried away on the other side. Well, and I need guardrails, yeah. Well there you go. Yeah, I've always needed guardrails. All right, let's transition into this new world that you find yourself in. So, you know, we've we spent 30-some years as an educator in lots of different fashions, but now not being in that that setting, but spending time with future educators and helping kind of mold future educators again through through your work at Salino Valley State University. You're working with with the future of education. Talk to me about that. Just you know, whatever angle you want to take it is, you know, what what are you trying to instill in them based on your career? What do they think is important versus what is actually important? Kind of how does that feel? Like how's that rolling out for you?

SPEAKER_01 48:51

Well, just for some context, I started teaching out there about six years ago. So I taught there four years before I retired. Um which I think was a really for a couple of of reasons, was a really good transition for me. Um, I don't I I would suggest to any retiring educator that you you don't just jump from the pool into the hot tub, that you have some sort of transition because this is an intensive career. Um, this has been perfect for me. These last four years where I was working as a principal and also on campus, you know, I'd I'd have days where I would have a teacher close to tears at the end of the school day. Um, teachers who were just tired of one more thing that they had to do. And then I'd get to campus and I'd have a whole bunch of students who would be on the edge of their seat with big dole eyes, you know, tell us more about being a teacher. We can't wait to be a teacher. They've got uh, you know, a tote in their mom's house full of all the stuff that they're gonna put in their first classroom. They've got um Pinterest boards built for bulletin boards and holiday celebrations and and just that blind optimism of can we teach now? How about now? Can we kill you? Get me out there, I'll run through a wall. Yeah, and it was such a good feeling, in addition to how well it was for them. It was good for me because I'd go up there and you talk about bucket fillers all the time. I'd leave a really long day in the public school and get to campus and feel like, okay, we're gonna be all right. This, this, this position, this career, this world is gonna be okay. Yeah, because those of us that just get tired of the mantle, there's more people coming. Um, so that's that's been fun.

SPEAKER_00 50:43

Um it's it's interesting that you said that because I don't know how many years I've been coming in and doing that lecture with you and some of the other professors out there at SCSU, but like you guys are always so appreciative and thankful, I guess. And you go, you know, you guys go out of your way to make sure that I know that it's appreciated, which I will say, I don't need to know that. And the reason I say that is like it feels good to me. Because again, I'm getting near 20 years into this career. And when you're day in and day out in your world, but then you go to SVSU and you're talking to these students, I feel the exact same thing. And that's why, like, I remember saying you guys before, like, this I like doing this, this feels good. It almost recharges my battery, even though at the end of a long day, I'm I'm getting in my truck and driving out to SPSU. It's in one more thing, but there's something about it that kind of jump starts the battery. And I always feel really good walking out of that building because the kids have kids, these features. That's okay. I thought I still sorry. Sorry, y'all. Um, but they have so many great questions and they bring insights in their in their, I mean, they have things that they've learned or experienced that we don't, that they have unique insights. So it's like I learn from them, they ask amazing questions, but I think that eagerness to learn and to to fill my tool belt, please, before I go out there, it's just it's really, really cool. And that's why I figured that's a really special kind of part of your career.

SPEAKER_01 52:05

And it I I teach two classes, and basically it's the two classes that are the real part of teaching it's how to work with families um and how to do classroom management, so it's the real side, and that's where they have their most anxiety. They know how to do math and they know how to do reading, but they don't know how to work with a kid or work with an angry mom or dad. Um, you know, and we talk a lot with them about I'm a big Anthony Muhammad guy. So with his school climate and culture work, and they break educators down into four categories, and it's believers who are the the happy nags in the building that want to say we can do anything. Fundamentalists who've my way or the highway, we're gonna do it the old way and deal with it. Um, survivors who are pretty much I hate to say it, but there aren't many left. Um, and they're the ones that are just beyond burned out. Yeah. And then tweeners, and that's what I teach. I teach the tweeners, and they're the new kids who are coming into the program and into the into the profession. And with me being retired now, they've added a part-time advisor role to me where I get to be an informal advisor to all of them, which makes me like the big brother informally to all the students. And also, I now get to go out and see all of the student teachers, and and that's fun for me to see how they're blossoming in their field work as well to just become that person that's going to pick this up as we return.

SPEAKER_00 53:44

So, I'm gonna ask you a question that we did not prepare for. So if you look at me and like throw daggers, I'll get it. But like it's not just your students at SCSU that might trip over this podcast at some point, but down the roads, you know, other students that are in a college of ed program, what is a message that you might say to them as they're kind of tiptoeing into this field? Kind of a hey, before you actually get in there, whether it's words of wisdom, a little tip, uh, don't forget about this. Is there anything floating around in your head that for those future educators that they go, all right, I'll I'll file that away?

SPEAKER_01 54:22

I think giving themselves freedom or grace to punch out. You have to have boundaries, you have to have a time when you stop replying to emails, you have to make sure that you have time to sharpen your own saw, to to not always be on stage, um, making sure that these new group of this new group of educators is coming out to a world where they know that kids are a whole lot different than they were when you and I started. Um they're coming with good teachers, these great teachers we've talked about, uh, and the good teachers as well. You have to connect with the students. You have to connect with the students, you have to understand where they're coming from, you have to build a relationship because if you can, you can get a whole lot, not only can you get more out of them academically, but you can get them as the children to re to realize that they can do more than they ever thought they could, or that any other teacher ever made them think they could. And um I tell my students, don't be afraid to break a few eggs when you get to these schools. I said, don't go in and want to change the logo or the school colors. But man, don't be afraid to say, no, if it's all right with you, I'm going to have my parents come in. I'm going to do this activity, I'm going to connect with these kids more than I'm being required to, because it's going to come back to you tenfold down the road. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:57

Yeah, it's like return on investment that it's hard to quantify at that time.

SPEAKER_01 56:01

And it's it's not easy, but it's cheap. It doesn't cost you a million dollars to find out what a kid likes and what they need and how you can help them. Love it.

SPEAKER_00 56:14

Love it. All right. So there you go. There's some some words of wisdom from a longtime educator that, you know, hey, if you're getting ready to jump into this field, some things to be thinking about. So um moving onward, we're gonna start tapping into some of these questions that I tend to ask every guest. Um, because I just I find them interesting. So we've actually used lots of words today. Um but what when you think of that one word that defines the ideal educator in your eyes, what is that one word that kind of wraps it all up? Okay, I'm gonna throw another curveball.

SPEAKER_01 56:51

No, like I did with my best day in education. Um so I've listened to your other episodes, so I didn't want to buzz in on somebody else's word. Um, I'm gonna go with imperfect. Look at you. Um and the context of that is I think sometimes people in education think they have to be perfect. They have to be, they're on stage all the time, so they better not screw up. A good educator, great educator, the one word to define that person is making it okay to fail for their students, but also understanding that they're gonna fail themselves. Yeah, we have to model that for knowing that you have to ask questions because you don't know it all. I mean, again, I am not a curriculum expert. If anyone at Sangley ever offers me a curriculum class to teach, that's not going to happen. Um and everyone that ever worked with me, shout out to anyone listening that's ever worked with me. I am not a curriculum expert. Um so you surround yourself with people that are. Um you admit that you can't do it all, that it's not gonna work, and then you just get up and do it anyways and try, anyways. Um, I've always said, teachers and farmers, you can have an absolutely horrible season, a horrible year, and you get to replant next year. Um, so imperfect is the word that comes to mind for not only me, but anyone that I've have either shouted out or haven't shouted out that I consider great, is they just know that it's they're not gonna know it all.

SPEAKER_00 58:33

And even at the end of your career, you're sitting there going, I wish I that's why you're reading books and listening to podcasts because like there's always more to learn. You're imperfect even when you retire. Yep, and by being imperfect, the kids recognize that and they'll respect you more.

SPEAKER_01 58:50

You know, you've watched some adults apologize to children, and the children don't know what that means. And adults never apologize to me.

SPEAKER_00 58:57

I'm I'm even thinking about like I spent so much time in my current role, like, hey, kid made a mistake, kid scraped their knee, you know, whatever. And it's like it's okay, uh, you know, especially in an elementary world. This is where we figure it out. You're in kindergarten or you're not supposed to trip, you don't have it all figured out. That's why you're in kindergarten. And even when you're in fourth grade, like we're still making mistakes. And I think sometimes people go, I'm not perfect. Everything's it's like I spend so much time talking to students, go, that's okay. That's why we're here. Let's talk about it, let's figure out a way to do better next time. But that's okay. We make mistakes, we're not perfect. But to model that as a teacher, to go crash and burn on that one, like you said, like is it legal and can I afford it? We're gonna try it. Well, guess what? We tried it, didn't work. Let's try something else. But that's modeling for the students. Like, it's great to take a risk, it's great to try something new because once you find something that does work, then it then it's great. So I think guys love that. That kind of nerding out on your curve balls. Your word of imperfect. I'm scratching my head going, why did you say that? But now it kind of I kind of like it because there's always more to learn, there's always a skill that you can develop. Um and it's okay to not be perfect because I don't know anybody that is right. So why are we? It's there's some that think they are. It's why are we striving for something that we just we're never gonna get there anyway? So just embrace the fact that we're imperfect and keep learning. So I love it. God, darn it. I did not expect to write imperfect on that paper there, Mark. All right, so moving on, let's imagine that we have listeners right now that have been in education for a bit and they're saying, you know, I'm a teacher or I'm a, you know, a special ed supervisor or whatever they are, but they're scratching their head going, you know, somebody's been nudging me to get into you know principalship, or, you know, I I like that systems mentality as a teacher, but I I see myself maybe taking that leap of faith and can I be a principal? Can I actually do that? But I'm nervous, or you know, the hours are long and all the things that are hard about being a principal. Sell the position to anybody that's struggling to kind of make that decision, that leap of faith. Why should they get into being a principal? There are postings. There are. I'm well aware.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:20

Um for me, I think there's this feeling of so that you're a teacher and the kid has the aha moment and you see their light go on, and you realize that you were the one in the room that taught them how to read, or taught them how to sound out that word, or taught them to finally carry the one correctly in math. There's a feeling of Avengers-like power when you're the teacher who's in the room when that happens. Imagine that now on a level that is building line. It's not just you and 20 kids, it's you and 600. Um, there is there is a definite feeling of that you matter and that you can that the things that you're a part of can affect change for a wider audience. Yeah, you know, that's that's one of the the gateway drugs for a lack of a better explanation. Um that that's huge, is that of being able to affect change. Um, a lot of teachers get told, and I was one of them, you're getting too big for your job description. Um, Mark Earf is that teacher. Um, but there's some things that you want to do that don't fit your job description. So slowly it would be, you know, those teachers become leaders on committees, or then they become department chairs, or things like that. And they slowly grow into that role of they're bigger than their job description. And so I think that helps. And also a lot of teachers tend to be swoopers and fixers. And I think just that that wide open, you know, expanse of wow, building wide. I can support and protect that and I can help and defend that, and I can it it just becomes a wider, a wider scope of what you can do. Um, it's a lot more responsibility, without a doubt. Um but I know that there are people out there that are absolutely qualified to do it because they're bigger than their job descriptions. Um so, and it's funny you bring this up because I was at Sherwood the other day um checking on some student teachers, and I was with Michelle Sprague in her office for a little bit, and we we were joking. She had told me that there's a couple of teachers in the area who are retiring, and I just joked with her about well, what are you how about you? Like he and she's she's obviously not retiring, but she said, Mark, I still feel the jazz. And I know that that's a real simplistic way to say it. There's a jazz to knowing that as organized and chaotic as it might be on any given day, you're the one they go to, you're the one they need. And just that feeling of I'm gonna make sure that this day finishes safely with kids who know more than they knew yesterday, and they all get home safe.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:31

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:31

There's a jazz to that. There's a jazz to we've got a big behavior with a seclusion restraint down the hall. We're gonna go down, we're gonna calmly, we're gonna laugh while we're debriefing. It's gonna be we can do this. And there's there's a there's a jazz. That's the word Michelle used. She still feels the jazz. Um, and I know exactly what she's talking about.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:56

It's interesting because in my current role, there's there's certain days um that I kind of I always say like I pretend to be the principal that day because the current principal is maybe out of the building at a meeting or something. So it's like, hey, can you cover? So I get a small glimpse, and it's and I'm talking on a very informal level, like sure. But I get that small little glimpse of for me, that jazz. I don't know if I'm I don't know if it's the same jazz that Michelle's talking about, but like at the end of the day, when those buses pull away and all the kids are like there's an eerie like calm in the building, it's like, whoa, we did it. And it's like that there's an almost an excitement when you get to the end of the day. It's like, whoa, it wasn't always pretty, but we got to the end of it. I don't know, it's like this the different view that I get of education now, because again, I'm not making any executive decisions or anything like that, but there is a sense that people are looking at you like, hey, can you help me make this decision? And I'm going, Yeah, we're gonna make it together. But that that feeling. So I get a little dose of maybe what you're talking about, and there is some. Some sense to that that I feel even on a level that I'm I'm not a building administrator, but I get that little inside look. So when you said that phrasing, uh that that kind of rang true to me too. So yeah. Well, very cool. Um, my my next question is simply one of these. What did we miss? Is there anything that we haven't talked about that Mark is saying, why didn't we talk about this or why didn't we dive down this rabbit hole or anything?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:26

Yeah, I think we've we had a pretty broad net on things. We did. Um, I will say, you know, in hindsight, when we talked about great, I cannot have you push stop here before I recognize that we work in a building that if not for support staff, things do not run the way I've I've portrayed them to run. So let's go deeper. What are we talking about? I'm talking about the the para pros and the and and and the just the general support staff that are in a building. Um you could be you could have John Lefever, behavioral guru, as the teacher. But if the bus driver sets that kid off at drop-off, that kid's day is ruined. You could have a para pro who is either untrained or having a bad day, salty, yep, and that can ruin a teacher's day or year. Um, so just to have to know that you have, you know, and and I think of people like Terry Reims and Leslie Dill, who are at Sherwood, uh Laura Steck, who was a uh support staff person for me in Ithaca, there's just and and dozens of others. That's the problem I have with shout-outs.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:47

I know, I know. There's just so many of them. I said this in a different episode where I started talking about secretaries. And I remember saying, like, if I get started on this, I'll never stop talking about so it's like I always I'm gonna say this for you because I I want if if you don't hear your name on these episodes, that doesn't mean you weren't great. It's so hard you got a microphone here, but you're just popping off names.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:08

But um schools are full of these people, yeah, and just people again bigger than their job description, huge. We may have hired someone to be a recess aide, and then you see this spark or a substitute teacher. Um, Ashley Prell is a teacher at Westdale Elementary right now. Um, she was a parent at Sherwood, and then when she left, I remember her being upset saying, I just don't want to, I know my kids are all gone now, but I just don't want to leave here. The next year she went back, got her certificate. She was a building sub for about a month and a half, and then Westdale hired her. And she's an amazing teacher. Awesome. And just so these support staff members, they become the part of the fabric of the school. Absolutely, they become the identity of the school, and they become messengers for the school. And you think of behaviors and class sizes, and without a strong support staff, you know, that doesn't happen.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:12

It's one of the core reasons why I wanted this podcast to start, is and I've talked about it, I don't have to labor over it, but there's so many nooks and crannies of education with these uh whether it's a para, a secretary, a custodian, a bus driver. And I'm like, if you don't think these roles matter, then I got big, big news for you because everything you said, whether it's the bus driver, the para, like you said, we talked about the secretary when you walk through the door. You know, secretary scowls at a kid that's 10 minutes late. I've seen this happen. Secretary scowled at a kid as he walked in and kind of a little, why are you late? It's nice to finally see you. And the kid kind of gave it back to her and said, I had to get my brothers and sisters up, fed, dressed, on the bus. So I'm 15 minutes late and I watched this encounter occur. But when you flip it on the other side and you get that secretary that goes, I'm so happy you're here. You know, it's like it changes the whole day for that kid. And it's like when you watch it go one way and then the next day you see it go another, it hits you like a ton of bricks is how important those roles are. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:18

So kudos to you for sharing that. I guess I caught myself about 10 minutes in thinking, oh no, I've forgotten maybe one of the more critical groups of people who are in education.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:30

Yeah, it's funny because, like, even like paras, you know, we'll just use paras as an example, but you mentioned paras in a room full of teachers, and the teachers start having their hands up and they're hallelujah! Like, you know, behind every great teacher is typically a whole host of support staff that kind of feed that into that environment. It's the very teamwork makes the dream work kind of mentality. So absolutely kudos to you for shouting out. So um, I I feel like I've said this a few times, but like am I wrapping up now? But this is my last question. You know, you're retired, but you're not totally retired because you just yeah, you just refuse to do that, but that's okay. But so you're not totally there yet. But how do you want to be remembered when you think about Mark Aventh and people that are going, yeah, I worked with that guy in Ithaca, I worked with the guy in the gunning, or oh, he was my principal at Sherwood or whatever, or even your time at Sagan of Valley, because you've had many different things, they all combine into this Mark is an educator. How do you want to be remembered? What do you want people or what do you think people will say about you, or how do you want to be remembered?

SPEAKER_01 1:11:34

Well, I'll start by saying they did uh, and when I say they, I still don't know who completely organized it. Um I'm gonna reference Mr. Holland's Opus, the movie. Great movie. Um I they did a retirement party for me two years ago, and I just assumed it was cake and heavy hors d'oeuvres, like it and it and when I got there, it quickly became obvious to me. The best man from my wedding walked in. Godparents from my family, my brothers' family walked in. My brothers who don't live in the state walked in. Um staff from every literally every school I ever worked in walked in. And I started to realize that I was getting my Mr. Holland's opus meet in my finale.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:33

Yep. Um, dude, and the movie's so good. I'm thinking back to the moment that you're I know you're talking about. And that movie gives me goosebumps, but now I'm looking at a friend of mine who got that same moment.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:43

Um, my kids each gave a speech. Every different district did a presentation of some sort. Some of it was a roast, some of it uh one Abby Asaski. You're roastable, you are roastable. Um Abby Asaski, who her claim to fame was she pulled the fire alarm on the first day of kindergarten at Mount Forest Elementary in Pinketting on my first year as a principal. Um, oops, oh yeah, that was fun because I didn't know how to turn it on. Yeah, and it's like first year administrator going, how do you do this? She is now a regionally famous, she sang the national anthem at um tiger games, things like that. Awesome. Um she sings, Did You Ever Know You Were My Hero at the event. Makes me sit in the front row and listen to it.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:32

Oh, so my honor is a very good thing. You want to talk about all my oh dude, you're you're a veteran at the scheme then.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:37

And nobody I remember in all the presentations and all of it, nobody talked about the fact that I was part of a school that won a writing improvement in war. Nobody talked about the data, nobody talked about the attendance rate, nobody talked about that stuff. They talked about connections and relationships. Oh it was it was and I I of course regurgitated it back in my appreciation part of the show where I I thanked people to let them know because a lot of them were educators. This is what makes this is why we do this, because I mattered to you. Um so if you think about it now, now I'm I'm not Mr. 89th as much as I used to be. Um I'm Papa, I've got a one-year-old granddaughter, Charlotte. Um I'm thinking they they call me Professor Mark on campus, which I think is weird. Um 49% of me feels like I retired too early. But you and I have both worked for people that stay too long. And I just wanted to leave when there were still a few people crying.

unknown 1:14:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:57

When I walked out the door instead of is that a clap like a 90s teacher. Let me grab a box and carry it out for your butt. But I was at White Pine Middle School today, observing student teachers. Um, a student walked up and said, Hey, didn't you used to be Mr. A? Yeah. So I guess how do I want to be remembered? Um one of the retirement gifts I got was a painting that was done by Julie Vielli, who I graduated high school with. She teaches art classes in the area. Um and it's me cooking hot dogs. And I it's on the wall. Sure would. So I think I think for all that all that went into it and all the exhaustion and all of the test scores and the everything, I just want to be remembered as Mr. A. And I'd be okay with that. Um and if they remember me for cooking hot dogs during the baseball season every year, which that was something I did. Yeah, I'm okay with that. Um, because I know what went into it, and I think they do too. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:15

That's really cool. That's a really interesting way to kind of to tie it all up. I'm okay being Mr. A. And if the the core memory is because uh even part of my honoring was like part of it was like the thought of like Mark is like a support person, like he's a principal, but like, how can I support you? And if in that moment we're gonna have some fun, going back to John and Pinkanning, who tried to instill, you know, it's okay to have fun. We're gonna we're gonna get six packs of hot dogs and a whole bunch of buns, and we're gonna have a good old time because didn't you do that on opening day of tiger? Was that something I would do actually?

SPEAKER_01 1:16:49

We we ended up doing it twice a year. I did it in the fall, okay, right at the end of the season. I did it again in the spring as soon as it was warm enough to do it.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:56

But those little things in schools that people look forward to, those matter, and that's part of kind of your yeah, your vibe is like he's gonna do something fun and something that's maybe a little upside the box. Yeah, I'm doing all the things.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:09

And I you know, it just my son now is in a job where he is very systems-oriented, he's very organized, and and Ryan plans his world out and knows what is happening, he's a beverage distributor. And Laura went into the family business, and she's a uh daycare and preschool administrator. And just seeing that there's there's a little bit of Mr.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:32

A there too, that's kind of how I want to be remembered. It's cool. Well, I am so happy that Mr. A carved out, we're going on an hour and 20 minutes minus the 30 minutes I was walking around your museum down here. Um, I'm I'm so happy that Mr. A allowed me to spend a couple hours with him on a Friday afternoon and kind of dive into some of the aspects of you and the work that you did and this the amazing staff that you supported and and kind of uh led. And I mean, just the the work that you've done. It's it's been fun to meet fun for me to be kind of alongside of it. So for me to get some to spend some time here with Mr. A and to record a podcast to kind of put all this on a recording. And um, I just think it's really cool. So I I very much value you welcoming me into your home and allowing me to put you in a little bit of a yellow zone to start because you get a little anxious with the fact that there's a microphone and doing stuff that's outside of our comfort zone, I guess. But I guess we're educators, so half the day we're we're doing stuff that's outside of our comfort zone in some weird way anyway. So um, but anyway, thanks, Mark, for allowing me to sit down. Yeah, it was fun. Yeah, it was fun. So um, with that, I'm gonna start wrapping this thing up. Again, this was episode six of the Honoring Educators Podcast, and I was tickled to be able to sit down with my buddy Mark A. Benth or Mr. A, as he's been known. And um until next time, uh we'll be talking to you. Love you guys, and uh we'll see you here probably next week at some point with another episode. Thanks you guys.