Co Opting Symbols and Patriotism

The Grove Guys talk patriotism what it is and what it means to us. How we view it, how it has been “viewed” in society and why it matters to us. 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_05 0:07

Get this out of the way. John made that. Welcome back, everybody. It's been a minute. And uh, you are here with the Grove Guys. In the Grove today, we've got John. Oh.

SPEAKER_01 0:22

I was gonna do it, but jump in the gun. I apologize.

SPEAKER_05 0:25

John, Steve, Chad, obviously Ron, and Mark. Mark is back.

SPEAKER_01 0:31

Welcome back, Mark.

SPEAKER_02 0:33

All right. Nice to be back.

SPEAKER_01 0:34

He was a fan favorite, so they're like, you gotta bring him back on. Right. That's all.

SPEAKER_06 0:39

We like a jump voice. It's my first time working with Mark.

SPEAKER_05 0:42

That's right. There we go. In person. We only have a person. Oh, that's right. He wasn't. That's right. I forgot. You were off the took content. He was me. That's why Mark was here.

SPEAKER_04 0:50

No one can replace you, Steve.

SPEAKER_06 0:52

We only had a button when I we still do. Community.

SPEAKER_02 0:58

Always makes me laugh for some reason.

SPEAKER_04 1:01

It's a good button. Steve says it though.

SPEAKER_05 1:07

I mean, we can. We can start right now.

SPEAKER_01 1:09

Yeah. I mean, but let's establish that we're we're all here together. We're all here. We're here together. We're in person. The whole community is right. This is the first time on the two. That was Steve, not a button. Give me a proof.

SPEAKER_06 1:25

I can't tell.

SPEAKER_05 1:27

We saw it.

SPEAKER_06 1:28

No video.

SPEAKER_05 1:30

Alright, but it's good to start with some laughs because the topic might not be very laughable, but it is very important to talk about. Um so we are going to be talking about co-opting symbols and patriotism as a whole and how it kind of seems the far right, and even I would say even people on the far left, just the extremes of our society and our community have kind of co-opted in taking these symbols, taking these ideas away. And before we really jump into a full conversation, I just kind of wanted to go over three specific definitions. Um, these definitions are all from Miriam-Webster. I'll put them out in the show notes. But we're going to talk about patriotism, nationalism, and propaganda. Uh, patriotism is love for or devotion of one's country. So it has nothing to do with anybody or anything else. It's just do you or do you not love your country? You love it, you're a patriot. That's it. End of conversation. Nationalism, on the other hand, is the idea is the ideology that elevates one national, one nationality or one's nation over the others. And places a primary emphasis on promoting and the promotion of the culture of that nation and the interest of that nation over other nations. And so that's that's kind of where the dichotomy comes of us versus them. It comes with nationalism, not patriotism. And we need to make that separation. And why is that separation not made? Because of propaganda. And it's the ideas or the allegations sent deliberately to further one's cause or cause damage to an opposing cause. Um and within our conversation, these these will become important because within our media influence these days, patriotism, nationalism, they kind of even on Merriam Webster's dictionary, it said I looked up patriotism first and it said synonyms for patriotism is nationalism. Like, that's not true. Those are two different things. The reason why they are different words.

SPEAKER_06 3:41

However, I would say in colloquial English, they are synonyms, right? People use them interchangeably, but they do not mean the same thing. Exactly.

SPEAKER_05 3:52

And that's kind of the tricky part.

SPEAKER_06 3:54

Yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_05 3:54

Yeah, that's right. And then also part of that comes from you know, just ignorance of you know what's going on. Like, for instance, we just celebrated America's 250th birthday, and it's like, okay, first of all, no. Second of all, no. And third of all, the reason we can have that celebration. I'm not trying to be against that celebration. It was a great time and I enjoyed it. But that celebration only becomes quite relevant because people don't understand the history of this nation and what happened.

SPEAKER_06 4:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 4:31

Um, and don't understand, you know, even you have a little history lesson, John.

SPEAKER_06 4:38

I mean you want to.

SPEAKER_05 4:39

No.

SPEAKER_04 4:40

Yes, you do. You know, it's waiting. 30 seconds.

SPEAKER_06 4:42

Just do it.

SPEAKER_05 4:43

30 seconds, okay. 1776, we did not get our independence. We signed a grievance list of things we didn't like against the tyrant king of England. One of those being taxation without representation. We then fought a war for seven years, and in October of 1781, we won that war in Yorktown. So technically, October should be our birthday. But it is considered the in July because that is when two founding fathers died, but it was also co-opted by Congress in the eight early 1800s as just like a memorandum. And then, you know, it's summertime, everybody wants to be outside anyway. Fireworks are awesome. Let's celebrate our birthday here. It also coincides with the Declaration of Independence, so boom. Um but all that being said, it's about people's ignorance of it. And for me, there's that difference, and we'll talk about it more as we go, but there's a difference between being ignorant of something and then being willfully ignorant. Um, and willful, willful being your defiant, your um feeling kind of self-entitled with whatever opinion it is that you have, even if that opinion is I don't know what I'm talking about, but I'm still gonna talk about it. And I feel like, especially on the far right, sorry, not sorry, that is kind of the big, the biggest talking point is just willful ignorance, pushing the propaganda of you know, this is how this country is founded, what this country is, who is part of this country, who is considered an American. And you know, like it or not, people Puerto Rico is part of America. It's just we can do a whole five shows on the history of that if you really wanted me to. But it's it's part of America. People who speak Spanish as their primary language are American. Absolutely. That's just that's just facts.

SPEAKER_06 6:51

Absolutely. You know, I I um wrote a piece about this on the fourth of July, well, I wrote it before the fourth of July, but I posted it on the fourth of July. Um specifically comparing patriotism and nationalism. Uh and I somehow, uh just to rehash a little bit of that, I heard a podcast that wasn't all that exciting, but it had this one piece in it where they were talking about the difference between patriotism and nationalism that really got me thinking about am I personally patriotic or not? And I think the what I landed on is so the textbook definitions that you gave were absolutely right, but in my head, I think about patriotism as being proud of your of what your country gives you the opportunity to be, right? Not not necessarily what you are, but what what it could be, what it aspires to be.

SPEAKER_03 7:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 7:59

And I I feel like that's kind of where we are right now, is we're we're in a country that has some rules and guidelines set up that allow us to make it more than what it is. Allows and and in um things like the Declaration of Independence or uh all of our amendments, what have you, we've set ideals for what this country should be.

SPEAKER_05 8:27

Right.

SPEAKER_06 8:28

Now, are we living up to those things?

SPEAKER_05 8:30

Yes and no.

SPEAKER_06 8:32

Sometimes, sometimes not, right? But the guidelines are there, and the framework is set us set up for us to have the ability to steer our country the way that we want it to go, which should be toward those ideals, in my opinion. So for me, that's that's the patriotism part, right? I'm I'm super proud to be an American. I get very frustrated with America, so don't don't misunderstand. We do a lot of stupid shit, we really do, and uh, it drives me insane, but it it's that's my personal opinion, right? Um, but beyond that, if we don't like it, we have the opportunity to go change it. It's not easy, and it's not something you can do by yourself, right?

SPEAKER_05 9:24

Um you need what, Steve?

SPEAKER_06 9:26

You need community, that's right. You know, community, really. We we had the real thing. Yeah, I don't care. So um, so so that I think was my big takeaway. Now, nationalism, on the other hand, is my country's the best, and uh, you know, everybody else be damned. And I think we see that a lot, even from people that think they're being patriotic.

SPEAKER_05 9:54

If you can look at it, especially from people who think they're being patriotic.

SPEAKER_06 9:57

That's right. If you can look at our education system and say that our country is the best, you're either uh, to your earlier point, willfully ignorant, or you aren't really looking. Like, there's there's no objective measure where we're the most educated country in the world.

SPEAKER_05 10:20

There's nothing that's also that's why I brought up the propaganda idea. Because you're being you're being fed something that's not that's right.

SPEAKER_06 10:27

So that's the difference between uh an example of the difference between patriotism and nationalism, right? Patriotism is wanting uh being proud of your country and the ability to make it live up to its ideals. Right. Uh nationalism being our country is always the best, and anybody who says otherwise is our enemy.

SPEAKER_05 10:46

Love or believe.

SPEAKER_06 10:48

Yeah, that's right. That's right. So uh I, you know, we'll let it go with that.

SPEAKER_05 10:54

No, you're good. And so that's what we're gonna be talking about. But for now, let's be right back and we'll get into a conversation.

SPEAKER_00 11:15

Hey friends and neighbors, join us Sunday, August 30th from 11 to 4 at Spillman Farms, 4965 Beatty Road for the Vote Voice Vintage Car and Bike Show, where residents are in the driver's seat to protect Grove City. We'll have live music, raffles, food trucks, and more. Show up and be part of the community.

SPEAKER_05 11:46

And we're back. I made her take one of those.

SPEAKER_04 11:49

Um not this one. Oh screwed up because I had to close it down for him, but we go.

SPEAKER_05 12:02

I supplied the part for him to do that, so technically. Right. But anyway, we're talking about co-opting. Cheers. Um symbolism and patriotism. And I think specifically, you know, now that we kind of have our a good set of definitions down, we want to talk more uh specifics. And I think one of the biggest things that has been co-opted is the flag itself. You know, the stars and bars.

SPEAKER_02 12:27

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 12:28

Um and just as a quick example, or not an example, but just as a quick history background on that, there are 13 stripes representing the 13 colonies, and then there are 50 stars representing the 50 states, and so that is the breakdown of what these stars and bars are. And I know that we have a couple of us have a couple different thoughts on them, so whoever wants to jump in, just go ahead and jump on in.

SPEAKER_02 12:54

Well, uh my thought, I just said, oh, my wife told me not to say that when I was doing this. But anyhow. Hi, Jane. Hi, Jane. Thanks for uh and something on the flag is so I was always a flag guy. I don't know. Like, so I'm the oldest guy here, been around a while, seen it all, you know. I grew up in the Vietnam War, the whole bit. But like I always put the flag out for the fourth of back when you only put the flag out for like the 4th of July, maybe Veterans Day, you know, at the family house. I'm the I was the flag guy, put it out, took it down. Yep. I bought my first house in uh 82. I was already on the fire department, so I wore a flag on my sleeve for 33 years, you know, that's part of the uniform. But I was a flag guy. I I put the first thing I bought for the house when I bought my first house was the flag, and I had the flag on the house like every day, unless it was storming or whatever. It was up uh all the time because I just um felt proud to be an American, but now I even have a hard time saying that in the United States north of United States of America in um because that's changed over my time too. So um, and you know, I put it on previous houses and and and in the last you know, three presidential cycles, that whole feeling about displaying that flag anymore bugs me because I think it feels like it sends the wrong message, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 14:33

Right.

SPEAKER_02 14:34

And it's like I am not so I already got the old white guy, I already got that look. Like that that is another part that's people automatically take you to the to a certain party when you're an old white guy, which bugs me. So I've been in the grocery four years now, it's the first house, and I've had, I don't know, I can't six, eight houses. I hit the flag on it right now.

SPEAKER_04 15:00

I think you have more like houses than fingers, right?

SPEAKER_02 15:02

Right. So it's the only house I've never put the flag up on. I have the flag, it's there, and uh I just don't want it. We talk about it, I I go, I should put it up, I should put it up because I don't want it being co-op by a one party, and I still have a hard time with doing that. Although I did put little flags in the flower pots for your fourth, but I don't know. I I need to get over that, I guess.

SPEAKER_06 15:33

Yeah, I think I think this is an important point, right? Because what what you're saying is you don't want to be associated with a group that you're not associated with, but the thing that you think will do the associating is the symbol of our country.

SPEAKER_02 15:46

Yes, right?

SPEAKER_06 15:48

Yep, and and that the only way that they can co-opt those symbols, and this is what I've I've been kind of preaching for I don't know how long. The only way they can co-op those symbols is if we let them.

SPEAKER_03 16:00

Yep.

SPEAKER_06 16:01

Right? So it's it's just as important that we and and we did this. Um was it last No Kings Day where everybody brought the flags? I think it was. It might have been two two times ago. But that part of that No Kings Day was bring your US flag. Right? So taking those symbols back is an important step, in my opinion, to helping this country heal the divide that's there. Yeah, because it's a representation of all of us and not just right right now to the to the point you were we were talking about on the break, if you see a truck flying those flags on the back, the first thing that you think of is that guy's right wing or girl, you know, whatever. That person, that person's right wing.

SPEAKER_02 16:47

Well, I I get that maybe I got an issue, but I any any flag on a vehicle, yeah, you know, I feel that way about it.

SPEAKER_04 16:56

Well, and you know, I've even seen them flying on the back of fire trucks sometimes, and I'm I'm really torn on that because I'm like, I understand, but I'm also like, is that flag being taken care of and like represented the way it's supposed to be?

SPEAKER_02 17:11

Well, see that flag code. So yeah, there's a lot. We don't do nothing by the flag code, but anymore. But the flying the flag on the fire truck is a big post-9-11 thing that happened after 9-11. And then we started flying our we started adding flags flying because we always had flags decal.

SPEAKER_04 17:33

Right, there was always a decal.

SPEAKER_02 17:34

But that's a post-9-11 thing, which means a lot to firemen. Sure. But that's just a whole another whole co-op thing because now it's become every anniversary is a political thing and it's not what it's about. So that, yeah, and so now you take that and you go, oh, you're comparing it now to the pickup chart flag. So yeah, I I can see why, but that is.

SPEAKER_03 18:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 18:01

Well, and it's just like the these are symbols that you once again have co-opted. These are symbols that don't represent anything about our actual history.

SPEAKER_02 18:10

And here's the thing, too. It's like so the 10th anniversary of 9-11, I got asked, um, it was a Sunday, so it was uh Cleveland Browns football. I forget who they played, but um fire police and like service members, uh, we were asked to pre-game for the Star Spangled Banner to bring that flag that covers the whole football field. You all see it. It's it's it's a it's a major undertaking of people in that. So, you know, normally when you go to a game, this isn't again the 10th anniversary. So you go to the game, I'm I'm fire chief at that time, so you're oh I'm gonna have to dress blues and scrambling, all that stuff. But normally, pre-parties at the stadium, like those people don't come in until the first you know, the first kickoff, you know. Yeah, but and we're there early and you see the stadium's empty, but you see the stadium was like loaded up for pre-game, which doesn't happen. And we brought that flag out in the field, and we you parade around the whole track, and you come in and then you roll it out, and you it's it's a thing. But it was on it was an unbelievable feeling to be part of it, and how uh proud it made me to be part of that and to do that. And the people in the in the stands went nuts over. It was a it was a very like thing that should happen, like on the 250th anniversary, stuff like that. But that that that was it there. But then I had to then we could stay and stay. We had tickets to the game, they let us stay. And but I had to go back to do this stupidest 9-11 political thing in the city. People were taking other symbolisms and you know, dancing with their red, white, and blue things and singing God bless America and got this, that, and other kind of patriotic, fake patriotic songs. So it's like I went from one thing to another, and that's now what are we at? That was that was 12 whatever years ago.

SPEAKER_06 20:13

Yeah, you you just reminded me of something. My my grandfather served in Korea, and he was very big in the flag code. I didn't spend a whole lot of time with him, but I I remember how big of a deal it was if he saw somebody in a red, white, and blue shirt, he was like, that's not how you're supposed to do this. You should you shouldn't be there, should be no bikinis of flags. There should be no, I'm not saying that that's the right thing, but that was that's the flag code, right? Like, yeah, like that was the rules that they made. And there was in in you know the older days, I guess, uh when when he was would have been my age, that would have been a big faux pas for somebody to wear something like that. Like they would have been chased from the chased from the beach for wearing a Star Spangled bikini, right? Um But you know, now it's everywhere, like it's it's on everything.

SPEAKER_02 21:12

It's and and it it become a novelty thing, like the novelty thing, and then I you know, now when you see the videos and stuff of the true, true mega Trumpers, like they're wearing the most ridiculous outfits, US flag code section eight. The red, white, blue stuff on like I'm like I know, I know it just makes me nuts because again, you know, I wore that on my sleeve for uniform for 33 years.

SPEAKER_05 21:39

Like when you wore it on your sleeve as part of your uniform, it was displayed as the flag in the rectangle, as it flies in the sky, as the pro in the proper code format. Yeah, whereas you know, section eight part D says a flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery, it should never be. Be fastened and drawn back nor up in folds. It's everywhere. Yeah. And yet.

SPEAKER_04 22:07

Well, it is, but it's not, because I think of like Disney and Main Street at Disney to where there's flags all down Main Street, but they're not 50 star flags. Because they're not actual flags, so they don't have to follow the code.

unknown 22:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:22

That's all that's a whole different issue. No, but I'm just saying though, it's but that's but that's but that's also done entirely. That's how people get around it.

SPEAKER_05 22:29

Yep. Yeah. And that's the same thing with the black and white one, because that black and white one says we the people. Right.

SPEAKER_06 22:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:36

Well now we're Oh, that's another one.

SPEAKER_06 22:38

So yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. There's So I mean we could we could go on for a long time about this stuff. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:43

No, I mean, you know, from my perspective, because I uh you know, I was a corrections officer and I had the flag on my sleeve as well, you know. And um, and on top of that, I was a Cubmaster for Cub Scouts for six years and you know was a den leader and all that. So we actually were the one of the few groups that retired flags, and we had a flag retirement ceremony every single year to tell the kids, express, educate, and show these kids how to properly retire a flag. And as part of properly retiring a flag, you had to show the respect for that flag. And so, you know, I was a I was a Cubmaster in the midst of everything going on when you know the the trucks were flying around and had those flags in the back. So it was a very, you know, conflicting time. Very conflicting time, you know, and and you know, to speak to, you know, putting a flag up is is you know, that was one thing that you know Lindsay and I had discussed and talked about, and I said, you know, and we both came to the consensus is that we have to reclaim certain things within our society. And you know, not to do a shameless plug, but you know, I do I have my project reclaim, you know, thing that I do where I'm all about trying to reclaim the symbols, reclaim faith, reclaim country, reclaim the flag, you know. Yep, everything. And and so that it's not a symbol for one particular person because you have that, you know, and and it's just it's disheartening to me that that that's where we're at, that we're even have this conversation. Right, that we even have to do this.

SPEAKER_02 24:25

Right, right. Yeah. I actually thought about putting it up and hanging it upside down too, which is the symbol of distress. But I'm sure that would go good in my neighborhood.

SPEAKER_01 24:34

But uh, I laugh about that because probably those same people that have an issue with it were the same ones that for four years had flags upside down.

SPEAKER_05 24:42

Well, or don't even know they're like, oh, that's upside down. It's like, okay, why is that bad? Yeah. What does it mean?

SPEAKER_06 24:47

They'd go, mm-hmm or have star-spangled underpants in their drawer.

SPEAKER_02 24:52

That's funny because all over Hawaii they it's always been. They they hang it upside down because that's that whole American that's a whole nother topic. Taking the shit and colonization or whatever. But I hear what you're all are saying about that, but I'm still having a hard time. Yeah, and being critical of even the same thing. I need the the motivation. I would sh the day this is over with, I'm gonna put it. I don't know if it's better to wait or to throw it on. I don't know. I'm just for it. It's a tricky thing, right?

SPEAKER_06 25:31

Yeah, and I and I think um, you know, part of this is uh a lot of times you'll hear me say uh me versus we politics. And I think this this is part of that too, right? Where the nationalism is about the me politics, right? We're the best, we're number one, et cetera, et cetera.

SPEAKER_05 25:51

You, I say that's right.

SPEAKER_06 25:53

The we politics is we're a uh we have an opportunity to be a great country in a world full of great countries. We could lead the way, right? We could we could be a leader among other people.

SPEAKER_03 26:07

Number one.

SPEAKER_06 26:08

I we don't have I don't know. I I think we should tier as they like we should be investing in our partners, and our partners should be investing in us. The problem is right now we've shut out our partners completely, and now we're all on our own, and it's not very easy to be the best when you're all on your own. Right. So the only person you're gonna be able to convince you're the best is you, probably.

SPEAKER_01 26:36

Well, what was that movie that Chris Rock when he was running for president and his opponent was like, God bless America and no place else? But that's I mean, that's the mentality that we bring that up.

SPEAKER_02 26:47

That's what I feel has happened to that whole I've always felt that about I I have a hard time with that phrase because you know which God it if you're talking about God is a Christian guy like everybody. Well, I'm not even gonna get into that, but what I'm saying is what I learned from my Catholic upbringing is that you know, there's love of everybody there. So why should we only God bless? We should be God blessing the world, right? Right, not just and we and it's said that like, yeah, we're the best. God bless us, and the heck would with you. That's how I take that.

SPEAKER_04 27:22

Yeah, that's right. That's right. Well, and and to talk about that God piece a little bit, I mean, you know, what the John, you're gonna be the one that's gonna have the exact numbers here, probably. But when did we put in God We Trust on our money?

SPEAKER_05 27:35

I'm looking that up right now, but about 56. Yeah, it was about to be.

SPEAKER_04 27:38

I was gonna say I knew it was around the 50s, but but I mean there was a time that you know that wasn't there, and now all of a sudden it's it's everywhere.

SPEAKER_06 27:45

Well, that well, under God and the unknown to God and the pledge.

SPEAKER_05 27:57

And it was a pledge of allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, which was added in 1923, and the Republic for which it stands, one nation indivisible with liberty and justice for all under God was added in 1955. I thought it was now. Yep.

SPEAKER_04 28:13

Right. And it's it's very frustrating because God and religion is used as a weapon nowadays. You know, it's it's just like taking back the flag. If if you're a believer in God, you've got to take back religion and everything too.

SPEAKER_02 28:30

Well, I think religion's been that way forever, but yeah, yeah. Uh, history says that it's at least.

SPEAKER_01 28:42

Yeah, I mean, and that's the thing is like I went to Jerry Falwell's school, Liberty University. That is my degree. That is, you know, that is where I graduated from. So, you know, to see and to go through the classes that I went through and what they try to that what that what they were instructing back in the early 2000s, I can't even imagine what it's like now. But it was so focused so heavily on that this is a Christian nation, that this is God ordained, and that we're, you know, and they tried to have that symbolism and and and you know, and Daniel and revelation of how America, that this is this meant America. No, it did not. And and as somebody that never held to that and felt like vomiting most of the time I was in my classes, but I needed to get a degree because people wouldn't take me serious until I got one. But I digress. But I'm just saying is that as the one that has a bachelor's in of science and religion, is that we have bastardized faith to try and control people just like it's always been done.

SPEAKER_02 29:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:49

But they started this whole trajectory, what was it? It was in the 60s and 70s when they tried to the moral majority started forming to that ended up ultimately bringing Reagan on, that ended up slashing corporate taxes and and you know putting us on this trajectory where if you if you hold to anything other than being a Republican and claim that you're a Christian, you're you can't. People uh many times would tell me, how can I justify being a Christian, let alone being an ordained pastor, and not saying that I'm I'm Republican. And and it was so frustrating and disheartening, and you know, and that's that's Christian nationalism I have spoken so heavily and so against in every way, shape, and form. And I might get it flagged, and I'm gonna say this and I'm sorry, that TPUSA is a domestic terrorist organization. True. And they I can't wait for the day that they fall apart.

SPEAKER_05 30:52

So true. But on the note of just the the God in our country and godless and all that fun stuff, do any of you remember our motto before it was in God We Trust?

SPEAKER_04 31:04

It was before I was alive, so no.

SPEAKER_05 31:06

No, it wasn't.

SPEAKER_02 31:08

Are you sure? He's sure because technically he's looking at it right now.

SPEAKER_05 31:12

Technically, it still is our motto, but e pleural umun, meaning out of many one. One. But we changed it in 56 when, or it got changed on the money in 56 when Eisenhower was fighting against, quote, the godless communists, yeah, communists of the Soviet Union.

SPEAKER_02 31:32

I was gonna say a lot of all those changes came from that early core. McCarthyism and all that fun stuff. Yep stuff. Right.

SPEAKER_05 31:39

But just that idea of like we were a nation founded on skepticism, founded on secular values, founded on the idea that the king was connected to the church, and we wrote grievances out against the king, you know, which in turn also was against the church.

SPEAKER_06 32:04

Because if the church involves itself in politics, then I think what's tricky though is that all of that was done by not all of them, but the majority of them were religious people. Right? So we still had some hints of religiosity next to the things that we were trying to do, which just muddies the water, right? Right. Which is which is where we are. Anybody can argue any point that they want and find a way to justify it based on what we've got. But I but I think instead of necessarily looking backwards, maybe we should look forwards and say, what do we aspire to be? And I think I think that's the trick because right now we're we're a nation with uh I don't even know how many religions, some ridiculous number, I'm sure, by now. Uh we have all kinds of things.

SPEAKER_02 33:03

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know. They're trying the department of war.

SPEAKER_06 33:07

Oh, I meant the department of whatever, you know, uh but uh but I think trying to find a way for people to coexist, right? To steal a bumper sticker. Uh trying to find a way for people to coexist and help each other without having to uh all conform to the same religion, or any religion at all, for that matter. I there's gotta be a way to get there. Any anybody who tells you that you have to believe this way to be American or be part of uh this uh great democratic experiment, I I think is that that is what I consider the least American thing that you can do.

SPEAKER_04 33:56

Right. Well, and they don't just say you have to do this, they say because you do that, and I don't believe that's right, you're completely wrong.

SPEAKER_05 34:08

Yeah, yeah. Well, Stephen, to your point, that is written on the something similar to that is written on the uh Statue of Liberty. You know, Lady Liberty is one of our greatest symbols that we have here in the United States. And what is written on her is give me your tired, your poor, your hull masses yearning to breathe free. The wretched refuse of your teaming shores, send these homeless tempest outs to me. I lift my lamp beside their golden door. It's just like the land of opportunity.

SPEAKER_02 34:40

Homeless. Like it's definitely against every policy we got now coming out of what's going on here.

SPEAKER_06 34:47

By the way, one symbol that hasn't been co-opted, just FYI. Probably because it's female, but that's a whole other topic for the other day.

SPEAKER_02 34:55

Heck, I don't even like to wear red, so like hey.

SPEAKER_01 35:01

Blue's a great color, though. We have a different red scare now.

SPEAKER_02 35:06

Unless it has Ohio State real big on it. That's the only revenue wear. We're triggered to that. Just like you said coexists, you see that on a bumper sticker and you're like, oh, there's a tree hugger. I mean, that's what most people are saying. But you know what I mean. It's another co-op. It's co-op the other way. Like it's give it fair uh thing, right?

SPEAKER_01 35:33

No, I I know I'm gonna do, and you guys are gonna give me crap about this. That's fine. Uh-oh. But one thing that I've loved being a part of with the Don Leonard campaign and volunteering is seeing that community of other, you know, of of Muslims, of black Americans, of Christians, of non-believers, atheists, you know, agnostics, all, you know. Everyone. Every day. Straight gay, whatever. Right, straight. I mean, old, young. Right. And I've loved having that that ability to interact and to see that this is my brother, this is my sister, this is my sibling. Yeah. And I've loved seeing that. And I and I I that's the that's what real, you know, real America is.

SPEAKER_06 36:22

I'll tell you, it's a great point because I I've been involved in a lot of campaigns in in my life, but I have never seen a campaign as diverse as Don's. Yeah. Not ever. And and to have it run, uh, have the top of that campaign be uh a white guy, right?

unknown 36:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:44

Yeah, like the again, you weren't got got to go because you were with your kids, but that watch party at the primary, and I I was there with Jane, and I'm like, I'm I look in that crowd and there, I'm like, this is America right here in this room. It was so represented from it's so diverse and so represent right the representation there. It's like, wow, and it's exactly what you were saying. I'm like, wow, this is this is it, this is where we should be.

SPEAKER_06 37:13

It takes a special kind of guy to bring something like that together, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:16

But that thing, too, it's it's all there, like everybody like people want that, yeah, right.

SPEAKER_04 37:21

And I think that's happening more and more around the US. Yeah, um, because people they want that now. They're like, no, it's not us and them, it's all of us together.

SPEAKER_06 37:33

But let me let me backtrack a little bit. We're we're a little in our bubble, right?

SPEAKER_04 37:38

Yeah, no, no, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 37:40

So there are plenty of people that don't want that. Um but they're wrong. I agree with that. I agree with that. I agree with that, but uh, you know, I think I think again, this is where you find the difference between patriotism and nationalism. Right? Yep.

SPEAKER_01 37:57

So um I think we need to have an Americans first policy so that it's the people that are, you know, Americans first, not America first, Americans. That's interesting.

SPEAKER_05 38:10

Well, that's even what most people mean. It's like even in the song, you know, God bless the USA, what is it? Um, there ain't no doubt I love this land. God bless the USA. It's like, whoa, whoa, wait a minute. What is the USA if it's not the land? Oh, that's right, it's the people.

SPEAKER_04 38:27

So it's like and land don't vote.

SPEAKER_05 38:29

Yeah, and like land doesn't really matter at a certain point. What matters is the people.

SPEAKER_06 38:35

In electoral college, land votes. Rand votes, true.

SPEAKER_04 38:38

Well, and there was a time that that land was very important because it was all about those farms, and and that's what made America great back then. You know, and and as society, right, and as society's changed and as technology's changed, I mean we farming's done a lot different now. Um, you know, and it's yes, land's very important. I know my parents, they've got a little bit of land and they think it's the most important thing ever. And it's like, but it's it's land. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:11

Well, it was it was interesting at one function uh for Don the other day, and uh we were talking to one of his young volunteers there, and she was like, Hey, how'd you get interested? She's like, uh I she goes, I haven't been interested. She feels that the last sixty years of of politics has done nothing for us and doesn't co follow the common people, blah blah blah. Um not arguing that point, but it was like it took a certain presence of meeting Don that bring her like, hey, I think I could do something with this guy about it. So but I took away from that, you could take whoever out of that. I was taking away that twelve, I think she's 24. That that age period, that's gotta be the majority of the feeling that that's out there, and that's such a different thing from where I was at 20 some years old.

SPEAKER_06 40:08

Yeah, which is that's that's a great point. I mean, when when I was you know coming out of high school, we were in the Gulf War. I remember going to OSU and there were flags hanging from every window in the dorms, right? Where there were yellow ribbons around all the trees, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It was very uh patriotic because we had something to rally around.

SPEAKER_03 40:33

Right.

SPEAKER_06 40:34

Then uh we had the same thing with 9-11, right? So right after 9-11, you saw everybody rally around that stuff. Now we did some not so great shit coming out of that, but yeah, uh the the you can see that the people want to be able to grab a hold of this, but they we just can't keep it together for whatever reason. People people um I don't know.

SPEAKER_05 41:06

Somehow it all gets wrapped in anger, it all gets wrapped in fear, it gets wrapped in.

SPEAKER_02 41:10

But it's also like today's a prime example. I'm gonna get into the politics part of it, but you know, we lost the senator, dies, right? And two days later they put his sister as a senator to replace him. So they talk about the whole we do the no kings thing, and then other people will say, Well, we have no kings. Well, like this is exactly so he's got the monitor, the rich people that is like, oh, that senator's gone. Oh, he died. We'll put his sister in there. Like, we're right. I've always like the whole king and queen thing. I never could understand, I never get why England still has a king. But so it's ceremonial.

SPEAKER_05 41:50

They have no power.

SPEAKER_02 41:51

But even if it's ceremonial, it's like they were they were the rulers because of the blood that they were born to the hereditary chain. And I'm like, that is so not. Well, I don't know.

SPEAKER_06 42:03

They're the Kardashians of England, right? Yes.

SPEAKER_01 42:05

Well, one thing that I I was getting a chance today when I was uh you know talking talking with Don is that I told him, as I said, you know, the difference with your campaign is I said when you were running your race, it felt like we were running with you.

SPEAKER_03 42:16

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 42:16

When you crossed that finish line, we crossed it with you. It wasn't like we were on the that we weren't standing in the grandstand, you know, or and watching him run this race. We were running it with him. And that's the big difference that I feel like the energy that his campaign has is yeah, Don Leonard might be the name of it, but it's truly all of us.

SPEAKER_06 42:38

It truly is the community.

SPEAKER_04 42:40

Because I mean, that's what he's created, because he and we talked about this when we had him on the podcast. He showed up. He didn't just show up once and say, hi, I'm Don Leonard, I'm running. I want your vote. Right. And then never show up again. Yeah. He was there a lot. Yep. You know, and he had conversations.

SPEAKER_06 42:58

Even more than that, he was there when it didn't have anything to do with him.

SPEAKER_04 43:02

Correct. Right. Right.

SPEAKER_06 43:03

That that's the that's the part that people miss. It's super easy. I don't I don't mean like logistically easy. I know the schedules are busy, but it's relatively easy to just go make photo ops at businesses and fairs. Whatever, like other uh congressmen and senators do.

SPEAKER_03 43:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 43:25

It's totally different to show up when a community needs you and and do something for that community that doesn't get you anything. Right. Right.

SPEAKER_05 43:38

Yeah, because even if that's something is literally just sitting down and talking with people. That's right. That's right. On a personal level, too.

SPEAKER_04 43:45

Right. Or showing up to speak and getting arrested. Wait, what? Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 43:51

Um yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:53

No, but that's one thing that I will credit immensely and appreciate you, Steve, for. I mean, I know I know. You know, I know you and Karen talk about how you guys sat for a long time, just the two of you, but I appreciate the fact that you guys kept at it. But determination. Determination. Kept coming.

SPEAKER_04 44:12

Because I mean, we know they're both stubborn, though.

SPEAKER_01 44:15

For sure. But no, I I mean I do I do truly appreciate that because from my perspective, progress helped provide that roadmap for Dawn to see. I truly believe that. I truly believe that. I appreciate that. And so my my thought is is it is so important to keep at it and to keep going. And even though we might have times of frustration, we might have these times of you know not feeling that we want to put our flag up, of you know, seeing a Dodge truck commercial and being irritated by it, you know, those kinds of things. But but so long as we stay together and we continue to to go through and you know do this, the the the slow, the the slow politics thing where we all take that time to learn about each other and we you know we invest in each other's lives and and you know you know and I've had some things happen in my life and you guys are the first ones that I'll send a message to.

SPEAKER_06 45:18

Yeah. It's not even not even politics, it's community.

SPEAKER_02 45:25

That's right. You guys missed it, but we love our community. Steve just pointed to hit the button.

SPEAKER_04 45:34

Steve is so spoiled now, he doesn't even have to be. This is a beautiful thing.

SPEAKER_05 45:41

We just did it like that. That's right. Oh man. Yeah, but I think overall with this whole thing, um, you know, whether it be a politician that does it, whether it be you know a person in your community that does it, if you're in a community and you don't have you know what we have here with uh progress, then do two things. A start it. Start a group. And B, reach out, ask us. We're here to help you, we're here to be here for you. Because it doesn't matter where you're listening, if you're listening to the just look.

SPEAKER_02 46:18

Just take the step because we it's all about these guys for this group for a while, and we hesitated to take the step. Uh, I'm gonna get involved, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But so glad we finally did. So take that step.

SPEAKER_01 46:31

Absolutely, we're glad.

SPEAKER_05 46:32

Right.

SPEAKER_02 46:32

Take that step.

SPEAKER_05 46:33

Well, take the step because if you're listening to this podcast right now, you are a part of the community. So with that, we'll take a quick break and we'll be right back. Hey everybody, just real quickly, if you have a story, if you want to connect with us, if you have a question, anything, check us out at thegroveguise.com. If you didn't quite catch that, it's thegroveguise.com. You can also check us out on Facebook as well. But again, if you have a question, if you have a topic you want to hear us discuss, if you want to reach out to us in any way, either go to our official website or check out our Facebook page. Thanks. Um, so history guy got some history wrong. Shame, shame, all apologies. All apologies. It's all good.

SPEAKER_02 47:38

Yeah, the revolutionary war is seven and a half years, not seven.

SPEAKER_05 47:43

Yeah, see, see, there's a whole bunch of things. All of what I'm saying when I say it is off of my memory. My memory is not perfect. If I do have a correction that needs correcting, 100% call me out. And what was called out to me, and I appreciate all the call-outs. I'm never gonna tell you you're wrong for calling me out. I'm not perfect. What was pointed out to me is the stars and bars is the Confederate flag. The stars and stripes is the flag of these United States of America. So, stars and stripes are what we're looking at. I apologize and once again bring on any and all corrections that you want to throw our way. I know personally I will gladly take them. Not me. And I will address it to the guys. I'll take care of it for you. I'll take the heat, don't worry.

SPEAKER_02 48:34

Don't worry, my wife will correct me. You've got these two.

SPEAKER_01 48:38

You've got no heat coming your way. About to say any of our wives would do that, Mark, which is amazing. We appreciate them. Just about that.

SPEAKER_06 48:44

We're all getting corrected when we get home, anyways. Right.

SPEAKER_01 48:47

True. It's because they love us. A little fast for us.

SPEAKER_05 48:54

Anyway. So things that have been co-opted, and you know, it feels weird to say our favorite thing that's been co-opted, but probably how about like the thing you want to take back the most?

SPEAKER_06 49:09

The thing that not counting the flag, not counting the flags the main thing, yeah. Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 49:15

Yeah, that's a better way to say it. So for me, it would be the phrase, we the people. Because it is the opening phrase, you know, of the declaration. But it also even when the even when the founding fathers wrote it, the one of the best examples of the founding fathers that I've heard came from.

SPEAKER_01 49:38

You mean it's of the uh constitution. Constitution?

SPEAKER_05 49:41

Yeah. What did I say? The declaration? Yes. Okay. See, I'm just doing it right now. Happens again. Happens all the time.

SPEAKER_06 49:47

In real time.

SPEAKER_05 49:48

Look at that.

SPEAKER_06 49:49

I was just sitting here singing the pre-Amb.

SPEAKER_05 49:51

Like in a schoolhouse rock in my head. I was like, wait a second. No, you're good. So the Constitution opens with We the People. But even as that was being written, these guys that were writing it, one of the best examples, or one of the best things that was said about them was from a comedian, I think it was Tosh, Daniel Tosh, who said the founding fathers were a bunch of racist bigots with a few good ideas. Yeah. And it's like, yeah, because they wrote we the people, and yet they owned people.

SPEAKER_06 50:19

Yeah. Right. They had a slave bringing them their coat at the end of the day. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 50:23

So but I think what they also took their time and they had this discussion, like we're here, and like, oh, yeah, hey, you said the wrong thing. Yeah, maybe it would be better. Yeah. That's how we got what we got.

SPEAKER_05 50:36

Right. Not just and it's it's not perfect. It was meant to be a living, breathing document. But I would take back that phrasing of we the people to be um all the people. We the people means everybody.

SPEAKER_06 50:49

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 50:51

And even when the when the amendments talk about people, it doesn't say American citizens. It literally just says people or citizens. It it doesn't specify purposely. When it needs to, it will, but for the most part, it does not specify who's getting these rights. Okay. All people here. The people in this country are getting these rights. And that whole collective idea of we the people is what bugs me the most when I see it because you know, kind of what we talked about earlier, that that black and white flag that says we the people, and then it's like it looks like it's you know tattered and waving. I'm just like, you probably know nothing about American history. You probably cannot name the amount of you know amendments we have. You probably can't even tell me what five amendments are. You can't even like you can't even tell me who was president when you were born. You know, it's like all these things that I go with in my head of just like you can't do this, you can't do that. Maybe they can, but all the people that I've talked to that have had that Reagan.

SPEAKER_04 52:02

Yeah, I was just thinking, I'm like, I think it was Carter.

SPEAKER_05 52:06

But thanks, John. You're so welcome. But just you know, that idea that the we the people means everybody. It doesn't just mean one or two people, it doesn't just mean you know, the the guys who look like the guys sitting at this table. It means all the people that were in you know, Don Lair's gonna pay and to to kind of throw that back out there. Hi, Don, we love you. Um for those of you who are like, what? No, he knows, don't worry, he knows, that's fine. But the you know, that idea of like that community, we brought you know Mohammed Omar on, Councilman Omar on, and he brings a completely different aspect of the American people, and yet still part of that community. He's still part of we the people. And yeah, I just that's that's my biggest if there was ever someone who represented it, it is Councilman Omar.

SPEAKER_01 53:05

True on so many grounds. On so many levels, exactly. He has he has been able to cross boundaries, cross against across a uh uh across the aisle and bring people over, yep, and and stand for them so that they see that you know what, I might not have voted for him, but he still represents me. So sorry, I didn't know. No, you're you're fine.

SPEAKER_05 53:26

But that's a part of it, of just like that's the idea of we the people, it's everybody.

SPEAKER_06 53:33

All right. What do you got, Mark?

SPEAKER_02 53:35

Uh again, I'm a fireman, but red baseball hats, that's my thing. Red baseball hats. Yeah, yeah. Uh I used to have in fact, speaking of fire, I used to have this really nice red baseball hat, F D N Y. And uh part I didn't even think about that.

SPEAKER_06 53:52

Like all your fire stuff would be red. Well, red's a big color. Blue blue's big, but red's a big symbolic color in the fire, you know.

SPEAKER_05 54:01

Well, even on that flag that has the blue, red, and what is it, green or yellow? Uh it represents the service members, the police, the fire EMTs.

SPEAKER_01 54:13

Corrections is all in there too. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:15

Yeah. Well, but yeah, I just used to like to wear a red hat. Like I said, I had that hat. I I actually threw that hat away a few years ago. Like because of this, I'm like, no, I'm never gonna wear this hat again. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 54:26

And uh I like red baseball. Well, in a whole community of like Linux users that, you know, Red Hat Linux, that's right.

SPEAKER_01 54:34

I mean, it's it's I'm a Cincinnati Reds fan, okay?

SPEAKER_02 54:37

Let's talk about it. Yeah, but yeah, so like not a book. I know it's stupid, but where's gray Ohio State hat instead of a bucket?

SPEAKER_06 54:50

I have a black one. Yeah, I have a black one. Yeah, and then maybe say maybe that's why they started putting the black. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. Scarlet and gray have always been the colors, but yeah. Yeah, that's a good one. That's a good one. That's it.

SPEAKER_01 55:02

What you got? My Jesus.

SPEAKER_03 55:06

Alright.

SPEAKER_01 55:07

That's who I want. Because when you read the red letters, everything that Christian nationalism stands for is not in those red letters. Matthew 5, 11 says, Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. And the amount of people that have called me a fake Christian, a fake pastor, and just been horrible to me and the things that they've said. Cussed me out one side up and down the other. Because I hold to those those red letters, and it's just so hurtful. And that's that's that's what I that's what I would reclaim. Isn't it isn't your Jesus the one that put tables and and I'm so sorry that my son came in and biked up.

SPEAKER_04 56:16

That's what it is.

SPEAKER_06 56:17

That's what we get for being in the middle of the house.

SPEAKER_04 56:19

He knew he was supposed to be quiet, but what did he do? It's kids. 14-year-old boy, let's make the noise right now. That's all it's got.

SPEAKER_06 56:26

He walked quiet for 14-year-old.

SPEAKER_04 56:29

He was quiet with the door.

SPEAKER_06 56:31

He did real good for about 15 feet of the 20 feet he had to go. The last five feet, not so great.

SPEAKER_04 56:37

I'm gonna put his skateboard in the recycling though, because that's where he put it.

SPEAKER_01 56:41

Um but on that note, Ron, you good?

SPEAKER_04 56:47

Are you good, Ron?

SPEAKER_01 56:48

No, yeah, I'm I'm good.

SPEAKER_06 56:49

I'm just it that's for me, it is an emotional one for you.

SPEAKER_01 56:56

It is because I lost so much and so many people in my life that I I valued and and thought that they loved me. And and then as soon as I start being able to speak my truth, yeah, they abandoned me. They my family too, you know. Not not all my family, but you know, I've and I found that I found my family.

SPEAKER_06 57:23

We found your community. Yeah, I feel like this maybe this is another topic we should do down the road somewhere is uh lost family. Right. I I think there's plenty to talk about there. Um we've all got stories to tell. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 57:41

But no, I'm good. I'm good now. And if you've got a good story and want to be a guest, email us.

SPEAKER_06 57:47

Let us know. On the website. Check it out.

SPEAKER_05 57:50

Groveguys.gov.

SPEAKER_06 57:51

All right, ChadGuffee.com. There's too many websites. Yeah, for sure. If anybody's gonna steal mine, it's gonna be Chad too.

SPEAKER_04 57:57

So I and I'm I know, and I was just thinking, I'm like, maybe I'm gonna steal Steve's here. I don't know. Um, I don't know if it's necessarily been taken away, but I think it's important that we make sure it happens, and that is justice for all. Oh for all. That's good. Yep, yep. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 58:16

Maybe uh because you hear it every time. Right, exactly.

SPEAKER_04 58:19

And and I hear I hear people in my head and all are for all. For all. I do with that.

SPEAKER_06 58:29

Every time every time Yeah, very good. That's a good one. Yeah, so mine is nowhere near as serious as your guys, but I feel probably almost as strongly. I I need the Punisher logo back. I need it back.

SPEAKER_05 58:47

I because the guys that wave it are just like the logo, and they to the police is what he was.

SPEAKER_06 58:59

Eventually it's if you I realize how easy it might be to confuse the Punisher with what the toxic, toxically masculine people think they are or want to be, right? I get that, but if you know anything about the Punisher, that's not what it is at all. Right. Yep. That's not it at all. So uh I I feel like they've not only stolen that from the fans, but they've stolen it from the Punisher, right? Like it's it's uh I'll kind of tear it up now, Robin Jesus.

SPEAKER_02 59:41

That's right. Yeah, I know. I know, right? It's funny. It's funny you say that because so I I had a friend and uh well, we were living in North North Carolina and uh retired retired police um and uh I think Fairfax County, it doesn't matter, but he went he went on about the uh the Punisher and that he uh you know that that one sniper that ended up getting killed, the big sniper in real life. Uh that that that was him, that was his vocal. I go, I says, no, I go, it's a comic book. Like it's a character from uh comic book. You know, like oh no, and he's arguing with me, you know, and then I go, well, let's go to the Google here, buddy. Like, what is it? It's from a comic book, and like you're saying, like he's you know, he's he's against the bad things. Against the bad things, he was right, it's you know, and he's very punished from what happened to him and what happened to his family and what is totally different than what it's been called to.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:46

Yeah, and uh only does bad things to bad people, right? Right, like there's a whole thing there. Uh it's a lot, probably too much for this, but uh I just want to make this special episode. It makes me angrier, and I you can you can check this with Karen. It makes me angrier when I see those Punisher logos on those trucks than all the Trump stuff and uh you know um we the people, the like uh making fun of Democrats, whatever. Not all that stuff, you know, whatever.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:22

That's like um it's gone. Doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:24

That's like uh tribalism, right? Team sports, make fun of the other side. Uh none of that stuff really bothers me. But when I see the Punisher stuff on there, I'm like Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:35

Well, thanks, Steve, because now I'm gonna listen.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:38

I didn't have to.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:40

He didn't say anything. Look at it that way before now and making me mad too. Just think it's like there's another one. Oh, you'll see it now. Oh, you can see it. Oh, I see him.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:49

I just think even you listening, you will now see it, not even where I wish we had some military guy here too, um, because I know I've heard from some military friends of mine that all basically their um service, right? So they're the army flag or the Marines, whatever, all of that stuff has kind of been co-opted by that side too. So, you know, I I feel for those guys, uh none of us right, those people. Yeah, those people.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:23

Yeah, my wife's uncle, Vietnam vet, he's he's got real he'll he could talk to you all day about stuff like that. He's so upset about that.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:34

Anyway, yeah, and I I just had a thought, but it it'll start a whole nother conversation.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:38

So I'll just you gotta spit it out now.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:41

Well, no, so we talked about the flag.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:43

Yeah, we did.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:44

And how it's been kind of taken away from us, but then you talked about vets. Yeah, and my dad does an honor guard, you know, he's 76 years old, and he does honor guard for any anyone that served in the military that's passed. Yeah, and I mean there's times he'll do two, three funerals a week in his small little community because they're all getting older. And the people that receive those flags, yeah, I wonder how they take that because that that could mean so many different things.

SPEAKER_06 1:03:14

That's a great question. And you know, there's a difference, yeah, I think, between a military family, like somebody who's been brought up with the understanding of what of what those things are, and uh family who is co-opting that military idea identity.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:34

Yeah, I think that in its form, folded like it is, and I know what you're doing if they do it, you know, I've been part of those on the fire side, but also on the military side, and the folding of it at at off the coffin, and it becomes this whole other symbol that really is it's co-opt.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:52

I guess the flag on the coffin before the presentation of folding it and presenting it, do you are there those cringe moments? Or you know, and and maybe I'm way overthinking it.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:05

I think you might I I I think for me, again, I've been involved in a lot of you know, our city had the Catholic Cemetery, right? The big one, right? In our city, so like any police fire military, we usually got involved in honor guard of some sort, so I've been to a lot, but I think that event in itself brings out reminds everybody what the flag was really about. I mean it brings us back to what really is you know, what it represents, you know, like yeah, so a sad way of taking it back. Yeah, that's good, but in a sense, uh it's another thing when you say that I like it it bothers me immensely about flags that have staff for anybody but like the services or for like Charlie Kirk. Yeah, but yeah, or just or just a senator or like whatever politician, it's like yeah, no, no, that that's a whole nother thing. But that's on that thing because those things really well, what's happened with all of that, because that became more over my time period where it was very rare to get that flag at half. Now it's it means nothing. Like so it's we're we've lost the symbolism is gone. Yeah, we lost the symbolism there, but I still think we have it at the funerals.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:27

I think people especially in where you what your dad is doing, especially with people who literally served this country. Yeah, right. Who were part of a war, went overseas, like you know, or even if they were in military.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:41

My dad was on him three years in the Navy, and you know, he died at 75, so that was like when he was 17, I think he went in. So but it's still like it reminds you, like he did put his services and he did, and then it brings you back to like that whole thing. So I I you know, and my mom still has it in a nice made the nice box thing for her, and she still has it.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:06

Yeah, well overall they we want to you know take back these things and remind people that you know this this country is a country with justice for all. It's a country of made up of people, a government that was supposed to be um you know, of the people, by the people, and for the people. You know, uh and you know, we're here trying to do it, and hopefully if you're listening and you've made it this far, you want to join us in those efforts. Um for now, I think we'll see you next time, and uh thanks for listening.