The Grove Guys

The Grove Guys Go International W/Mandy

• The Grove Guys • Season 1 • Episode 13

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The Grove Guys talk Domestic Violence and the female perspective on Masculinity  as well as societal norms; with special guests Mandy and Zach. 


https://thegroveguys.com/ Check out the website for more info about the pod. 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/921639890765160 Connect on Facebook 

https://www.thehotline.org/  Domestic Violence website. 

SPEAKER_00

Mandy AKA Tech Live.

SPEAKER_04

There we go. So for those of you. For those of you wondering who these extra two people are. We have Zach and Mandy here. For those of you that remember from one of our first episodes, Mandy gave a little before we started speech about how much she appreciates the growth guides and just us in general. Mandy, let me say for all of us, that respect goes both ways. We appreciate you as well. That being said, Mandy is here to kind of talk about her story because I'll let her get into whatever details she wants to get into, but she she went from being in a relationship that was toxic to being in a good, solid, strong relationship. Uh mutual benefit. And we're here to discuss that with her. She was kind enough to offer this story for us and this talk and conversation. And so Mandy, why don't you uh tell us a little bit about yourself?

SPEAKER_01

Hi, my name is Mandy. I like long walks on the beach. Um with Zach. Yeah, puppies and how it with a book. Um yeah, I uh suddenly I don't know anything. Um listener, first time caller.

SPEAKER_02

There we go.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, long time listener, first time caller. Thanks, fellas. Um, I've had a different experience with masculinity than I guess the people that I'm thankful to know now. Um growing up, I had mostly a single mom, but she was always like needing to be with a man. So she would jump from guy to guy and they were always terrible. Um, everything was just like super abusive, very unhealthy. So when I was 16 and I met a 26-year-old that seemed like he was calm and safe, um I didn't pick up on any of the red flags that started happening, like when we first started dating and he broke a door out of business because it was being wonky. Um, it was all just kind of normal to me. Um then when I was 19, I got pregnant, had my first daughter days before I turned 20, had the second one three years later, and the whole time things were just like very tumultuous. There was a lot of 911 calls from his family, from neighbors, from like people that were just driving on the same street as us because he was driving crazy, or if we were in the parking lot of a business and he's like screaming, cussing me out, people inside the businesses were calling. Um And there was one one in particular that the cops came and they told his mom, because she was the one who called the cops that day, they were like, Well, women just like living like this, you can't help them. Um, and I thought that was kind of funny. But my my goal through the whole thing was literally just like I can't be a single mom because I know how bad that is.

SPEAKER_00

Like in my exposing your kids to risk and danger and bad people.

SPEAKER_01

So for me it was like, well, he's not like hitting the kids, so this is better. Um but it obviously wasn't better, I just didn't realize it at the time. Um I like I would wake up and I could tell you exactly how many days I had until my kids were 18. Right. Because I was just like, okay, I've just got this long left.

SPEAKER_04

Um and so you were willing to sacrifice your happiness for your daughters.

SPEAKER_01

Oh yeah. Well, and I didn't have any examples of like healthy relationships. So I just thought that everyone was miserable in one way or another. Right. I didn't think that people were like actually happy. Um, I didn't like I I really I never thought that love was real until I became a mother. And then I was like, okay, this is real, but I didn't think that there was like a romantic type of love.

SPEAKER_04

So that's just like Hollywood movies and things like that.

SPEAKER_01

Like, yeah, it's like everybody's just faking it. Some people fake it well. It's easier for some people behind because they have more money, or you know, um, but I never I guess it's better because I didn't know what I was missing out on at the time. I thought I was just kind of sucking it up for the kids. Um, but like I wasn't there were times where I wasn't allowed to work. Um, when I did work, I wasn't allowed to have a bank account, or like I lost a job because I couldn't go to work. There were like if he was upset, I wasn't allowed to leave. He would take my car keys, take the batteries out of my car. There was like one time where I just picked up both kids and I had them like each in one arm and I'm running around the neighborhood barefoot. And I was just like, if someone's outside, I'll ask them to call the cops. But then he said he had settled down. Um just a lot of stuff like that, where it was very, but it was stuff I was already used to because growing up in an abusive environment, you were already like programmed to walk around the house quietly, kind of scope out what's going on, what's everyone's emotions, how's everyone feeling, how do you fix it before there's a problem? Um, like even if even if the TV is on and it starts getting staticky, you need to hurry up and find a way to fix that before somebody gets irritated because like everything equals danger. Yeah. Um, but yeah, there was just a lot of that. And I thought it was still better that way. And then one day I just, I don't know, I distinctly remember um he was like breaking things, he he wasn't happy, and so he picked up the plate of dinner that I made, threw it, and then started throwing a bunch of other stuff. And the kids, I looked over and Savannah bent down. My oldest daughter bent down to my youngest daughter and whispered, like, Dad's upset, let's go. And they would go upstairs and hide. And that wasn't even the first time that it had happened, but that moment, it literally just like flipped in my head, and I just knew this is not better. Like there's no way that leaving can be worse. Um so uh yeah, I I immediately was like, okay, we're never getting back together. Um then there was it was tricky in a different way because he left the house. Um, like he thought that you know, going along with me would kind of get back. So he left, he was staying with his friend, but then his friend moved out of state. So then he came back to the house and we were alternating days at the house. And I thought that that would be more sustainable, but that was still very physical and scary. Um and during that time, actually, was when I met Zach because I had been it just wasn't safe for me to stay at the house when it was his day. So I would spend the night at my friend's house and like sleep on her floor or sleep on her recliner. And yeah, we met at a bar. I never I I honestly thought I would just be single forever because I didn't think it would ever be worth it, like exposing my kids to anyone. Um but yeah, I had been seeing him for a while, and one of my friends was like, Well, your kids have seen you like so miserable and so unhappy. Don't you also want them to see you happy? And that was like, I don't know, maybe eight or nine months after we had started dating. Um, and I was like, Oh, that actually makes a lot of sense. So it started very slow, where it was like half an hour at the park with ice cream, and I was constantly like getting on their nerves because I'm always like, Do you like him? You never have to see him again if you don't like him. Like, do you feel okay? Is this because growing up, my mom would just be like, Well, don't you want me to be happy? And so I wanted to make sure my kids always knew.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, but that's a loaded question to a kid.

SPEAKER_01

Like, no, I would be like, I don't give a fuck. You never have to see this man again. Like, this is it's me and you. We're we're good forever. Um and they would be like, Yeah, of course we like him. And then it's just, you know, spending more time with him. They'd be like, Oh, are we gonna see Zach today? And the tone of their voice, like with them asking, because I wouldn't bring him up, like, do you want to see him? Like them bringing it up, it just things happened in a really organic way that I felt like safe and comfortable with. Um, but then also, you know, when you start to feel safe and comfortable, then your your brain and your trauma kind of like pops up, like, oh, you're safe, let's deal with the shit. Um and so then like we had one of our bigger problems in the beginning was like if there was any conflict or if I felt like anyone was unhappy or just not super happy, I would kind of just immediately freeze. And I wasn't able to be like a participant in the family because I would just freeze and be like, oh god, something bad is gonna happen. I need to like hurry up and fix this. And my therapist was great. Um just realizing that, like, oh, I'm actually safe right now. This whole house can be full of unhappy people, and everyone is still safe. And everyone can have an upset day or you know, bad feelings for the day, and nobody's in danger. It's okay. And like literally just reminding myself someone's unhappy, and I'm safe.

SPEAKER_04

Um yeah, people are allowed to feel what they feel.

SPEAKER_01

So yeah, yeah, it's it helped so much, and just like I don't know, having a healthy partnership where you're not changing for someone and they're not changing for you, but you are both a safe place that the other person is able to grow and change better for. Um it's it's been crazy in a great way. And that's part of like when I first started telling the kids the first time I ever called the cops on their father was um after I'd already left because I was, you know, just realizing things more and more. And I was like, you know, I got into this situation because I thought all of this was normal. You guys will not grow up thinking this is normal. So we just started being like more firm with boundaries and safety, and like, no, you can't talk like that around the kids, you can't behave like that around the kids. Um and yeah, I think all of our lives have just gotten so much better, but even even more than that, like the person that I have been able to grow into is also someone that feels safer to be more active in the community and be the type of person that I want to be, you know, like helping people and speaking up for people and organizing stuff instead of just sitting at home terrified to upset anyone ever.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. So basically being the Mandy that we all know and love.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Awesome. Well, on that note, let's take a quick break and we'll be right back with a conversation with Mandy.

SPEAKER_06

Couple things. We're gonna have some people there to talk about the community consent amendment, we're gonna have people there to talk about the bond issue for the schools, we're gonna have people there to talk about smile patrol, and we're gonna have a couple of our uh candidates uh in the in the area as well. So, two things to know. Number one, we're taking donations for bus drivers and teachers. Uh, bus drivers need ink pens, post-it notes, and highlighters. Teachers need tissues, pencils, hand sanitizer, and hard candies like uh um burders or peppermints or those kinds of things. So um bring lunchbox items to share, uh peanut butter, chips, juice boxes, anything you would have put in the lunch bag uh back when you were a kid. And uh we will see you there. It's gonna be a great time. Thanks.

SPEAKER_04

And we're back. So, Mandy, as you were talking, um, I know that a lot of us had questions coming up. Um, and if it's okay with you, um kind of do like a little mini QA. Kind of before we jump into that, you talked a lot about how your girls were right there with you, you know, asking about Zach, and that you know, they didn't meet him until a certain point. They didn't meet him until they were ready, and they were seven and ten, if I'm remembering that correctly. Um what have and obviously whatever you're comfortable sharing, but what have they shared with you about Zach? And you know, Zach, you can jump in on this as well. Um what have the girls said about this entire transition, if you will?

SPEAKER_01

Um, well, originally my oldest was like, I mean, she she never acted weird towards me. I knew that she loved me, but she was very much a daddy's girl. Um, and my ex was told by our couples therapist that he was likely in a narcissistic borderline personality disorder and codependent. Um, so there was just a lot of manipulation involved. And after time passed, my oldest was like, you know, every time we would go over for the weekend, he would tell us terrible things about you. And I didn't want to believe them, but like I couldn't, you know, you you'd assume that your parent is telling the truth.

unknown

Right.

SPEAKER_01

And there were noticeable like behavioral shifts every time I picked them up from his house, where it took a couple days to get them to kind of have a little less attitude and be their normal selves. Um and there were there were just so many things, like we are all completely different people at this point. And you know, seven and ten is still pretty young, but especially being raised with a narcissist, you you don't have your own opinions or what you want. It's it's about what can I guess will make this person happiest. Like when they first started, you know, when we had the separation and they would be with me, then they would go to him. Um, Zach was so helpful. He'd be like, hey, the kids are not like able to make decisions. And, you know, we were in family therapy at the time and we're like, how do we work on this? And we just started small with like, okay, we're we're getting dinner tonight. Do you want McDonald's or Wendy's? Instead of giving them, you know, what do you want? Because that was such a big step for them.

SPEAKER_07

Right.

SPEAKER_01

We had to smart start as small as do you want McDonald's or Wendy's? You have to pick. And like even that felt like a huge hurdle at the time. Um, and then when it got to a point where they would start making requests, like we celebrated it. And it was just like, I don't know, there are so many nights where we'd be in bed and he'd be like, hey, let's talk about the kids, let's work on the and it's like I didn't think that a real genuine partnership was like possible, you know. And you know, the patriarchy, you just assume that it's it's all up to the woman to handle the kids' stuff and the mental load and all the planning, but to have your partner that doesn't even have to stop and say, Hey, I've been thinking about this, I'm noticing this. How do we work on this? Okay, let's talk about it as a family.

SPEAKER_04

Um, yeah. Zach, what was that like for you? Like what not to say what made you do that, because obviously being a good guy made you do that, but um, I think uh I don't know, just kind of where I was raised in the South, be a gentleman, have manners and be kind to everyone, and being the military, you learn your core values and stuff and um integrity.

SPEAKER_05

So for me, it was just you guys are looking for contrast to like him. When they would go over there, he would be talking about uh saying terrible things about Manny the whole time. And so I made a point I don't say anything about Joe, I don't talk bad about him. I let them make their own decisions.

SPEAKER_04

Because that's how you should be you just lead by the example instead of the so in those in those talks and your girls are how old now?

SPEAKER_00

16 and 19.

SPEAKER_04

Okay. And you said that they've obviously made those transitions and those changes, but like do you feel like they are in through Zach, they're getting that better example of what to look for in a male partner if they if they choose a male partner, or even just a partner in general?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, even I mean, there are like honestly, if if you recorded any given day at our house, you could stop and highlight so many moments, but like there are some that kind of just stick in your head as you know, like landmark moments where um God, we were doing parent-teacher conferences for Max in like fourth grade. And the tea it was my first time meeting the teacher. And uh one of the first things that she said to me was, yeah, Max was telling me that um that their stepdad, if he like overreacts or something, he stops and he apologizes and he like has a good conversation. And she was like, That just meant a lot to me because mine never did that. And I was like, Oh my, like my kid's teacher is hearing that my husband will go, and this was you know before we were married, but like everyone, everyone has moments where they don't handle things properly, and that's that's to be expected. But the fact that like my kid is telling their teacher, oh yeah, he comes and apologizes anytime, anytime something happens, and the teacher noticed and brought it up, that was huge. And there was a moment where uh Savannah had said, Hey, I like hanging out with you guys, but I don't always want you to hang out in my room. I'd rather hang out in the and I was like through a freaking party that day because I'm like, dude, you're setting boundaries. That's amazing. Thank you. Um like because so long their lives were just, oh, I don't know, whatever you want. And we're like, yeah, as a page. Yeah, and even like, oh my god, when Savannah started getting mad and she'd be like that, like she would, you know, as a kid, just get mad about something. I I actually had to deal with this in therapy because it did not make things better in the moment. I would just start like smiling and cracking up. And Zach's like, you're not helping anything. But in my heart, I was just thrilled that she's mad. Yeah, I'm just like, oh my god, you're mad. You feel so safe to be mad right now, and you feel safe enough to say, That's stupid. I don't want to do that. Like that for me was a huge win. I don't think. I ever did that. So the fact that my kids feel safe to do that was like amazing.

SPEAKER_05

Um they never really expressed emotion and stuff like when I first meet them. So it was just very sheltered.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it was it was sad. But now, and then like as far as the example, like, yeah, I this is the type of relationship that I have is absolutely what I want for my kids. And that is just the greatest privilege to be able to honestly say that. Like when I was out of the country the first time, I was telling my daughter about like, you know, I started a second small business, and I was like, I really appreciate that. Like when I decided I was passionate about this, that dad was never like, Oh, well, we need you here more. You're not making dinner enough, you're spending too much time with work stuff. And she said, Oh my god, no, you should have heard him. She said, The whole time you were out of the country, she said, This man, anytime he would talk about you, he's your number one fan. He's like, Your mom is amazing. She works so hard, she takes such good care of people, she cares for people, she's just the best person I've ever met. And she was just going on and on. She's like, it actually made me tear up. And that, like, I don't know what else a mom could want.

SPEAKER_03

And just to be clear, they're not wrong. No, they're not wrong at all. Nope. Nope, nope, nope.

SPEAKER_06

So, so can we can we turn? I know this is the Mandy Pod. Can we turn this for a second to Zach?

SPEAKER_04

We can.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah. Because I'm I'm first off, Zach, I'm curious how like seriously, how you feel when she and the kids talk about you like that. Um what does it make you what does it make you feel?

SPEAKER_04

I mean, he's been smiling the whole time. So if that means it's yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06

I'm I'm sure he's happy, but that's not what I that's not what I mean. Yeah, I mean, do you do you feel like you've done something to earn this, or is it I I don't know. I don't know what I'm really trying to ask, but I want to know just like what's going on in your head when all this is going on.

SPEAKER_05

Um it feels uh vindicating because like I try to do the right thing. Yeah, yeah. Um so like on one end, it's like I feel like every man should be doing the things I'm doing and should also be striving to do more, which is I guess really what I'm doing. Um so it feels like, well, this is what we're supposed to be doing, so I shouldn't be getting all the praise for just doing what I feel like I'm supposed to be doing. But it does feel good.

SPEAKER_04

Like the first time when was the first time that they that you noticed them kind of referring to you as dad? Because they now call you dad. When was the first time that that kind of oh I don't know, it was a few years ago. But I'm just saying, like how are you? Like what was that like you know, I'm the stepdad, you're the you know, the prime example now of how men should be in general. So like what was that 'cause you didn't have daughters originally, you didn't have kids originally. Right.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, I mean a daughter. It feels amazing. It's like a honor, you know what I'm saying? Like to be because anybody can be a dad, you know what I'm saying? A lot of people are dads on accident. But I didn't choose to be a dad, you know what I'm saying? Like I met Mandy, we fell in love, and then I became a dad, you know, and they chose for me to be their dad. So it's like a little different right, they've vindicated that process, you know. But yeah, it just feels amazing.

SPEAKER_06

All right, yeah, so one so one more question. So go for it. How how like I know you were in the military, Zach. So you you've seen the toxic masculinity up close, right? Um were you were you ever part of that, or have you always kind of been outside of that bubble?

SPEAKER_05

Uh no, I was very much um raised in the south by the grandfather who had absolute zero patience or anything. So everything that was as toxic as it could be, you know what I'm saying? From just like a male perspective, and you know, just being born in the south, it's a very male-dominated society. There's all kinds of things in our culture that you know oppress women and minorities and stuff like that. It's just part of my life. So, like for me, that was the norm growing up.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah, that's well, that's what I thought. So, what happened?

SPEAKER_05

Okay, how'd you break that? How do you get well? Yeah, Mandy acts like she met a good guy, but she met a normal guy who became a good guy through her. So I think that is just the potential. Like, we all have the potential with us to be whatever. Um, I got lucky enough to be born in a home where I had privilege and I didn't have to do with a lot of things that other people do. And um Yeah, sorry, I lost my train of thought there.

SPEAKER_04

No, you're growing up in your home and um meeting Mandy.

SPEAKER_05

Oh, yeah, I mean like her introducing me and um or introducing me to therapy, really, and um Dr. Laura Markham was that a part of that early on, the three C's.

SPEAKER_01

Um well, because he specifically asked, it wasn't me saying, Hey, do this. He there was one day where he said, Hey, I don't know anything about being a parent. Can you recommend like books or podcasts or something? Because whatever you're doing is clearly working. So like he asked and he's curious and he wants to learn this stuff.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, because like I the reason I don't have kids, I don't know, is I don't know, not everyone is a great parent, I guess. I always w doubted myself, you know. Right. And uh, but seeing her, like, man, that's like the way to do it. Like the way that she handles her kids, the way that they respond to her, you know, it's not parenting through fear or authoritarianism, it's actual respect and love.

SPEAKER_06

So she's good like that, for sure. Right for sure.

SPEAKER_02

And I know Zach, you know, one thing being a stepfather as well is that that's not a easy thing. You know, to step into that and and to uh you know treat their mother with with utmost respect because you want them to see that positive partnership, yeah, to where you guys can work together and you know and having that same you know scenario with myself is that that's been something great, you know, to be able to provide that for all of the kids that you know that that uh you know either I have or you know my wife has, but there are are kids together and they you know they are siblings, you know. They'll say they're a a brother from another mother or a sister from another mister, you know, those kinds of things. You know, but they they they love each other and and but you know, they're able to see that healthiness of two people that you know that they couldn't they didn't see that before. You know, and so that's a personal struggle I have for my kids is that they you know they saw that unhealthy relationship and then now they're seeing a healthy relationship. And so my daughter always says that Lindsay fixed me. And you know, yeah, yeah, she did to an extent, you know, but she also uh allowed me to find myself, my true self. And I think that that's something, you know, Mandy had touched on that earlier is that you know, being able to find who you truly are and what you're truly capable uh of being able to do and having the freedom to do, you know, to do that is and somebody that supports you as you do it, because for those of you that don't know, Mandy is currently in Germany.

SPEAKER_04

She's not even in the country.

SPEAKER_01

And he's full-time parenting, though.

SPEAKER_04

Right. And full-time supporting you being there.

SPEAKER_03

Excuse me. I think with this, it's it's interesting because I think for the first time your kids, Ron and and Zach and Mandy with the girls, they're seeing a healthy partnership. And they're not used to seeing that. And it's not that things work better and somebody fix the other, it's just when you work together, yeah, it it stuff just kind of flows and happens.

SPEAKER_01

When you have the safety and the comfort to like, oh, I I can grow. Like, you know, if a plant is in the wrong soil, it's not gonna grow. You put it in the right soil, boom, you're great. Like, even when I um, because now I'm I do like regular, smaller, not not out of the country, but like solo trips just to like journal in the very first time that I started, I I had to learn how to feel sad and mad because growing up I was never allowed to do any of that. And possible as well. Literally, yeah, there was a day where it was just like, man, I I think I want to like go away for myself, go away by myself for the weekend and just like journal and be sad for a little bit immediately. He's like, okay, how do I help? Can I pay for the Airbnb? What can I help you do? And it was not like, well, what do you mean? Who's gonna watch the kids? Who's gonna take this one to the practice? Who's gonna who's gonna make dinner? It was like, sweet, how do I help you do that? Every time I'm like, I think I need to do something, and that's like if he had reacted differently, I never would have brought that up again. So every time where it's just, you know, validated that, oh, I am safe to do this, it gives me another opportunity to grow in a different way next time. And and my kids through it all get to see that. And they were the ones when when we were dealing with all the custody stuff. Originally we went to court, I kind of settled for like still being the primary parent, but he got them every other weekend in one week night. And as they you know, growed themselves and learned more boundaries and felt safer, eventually they said, Hey, we don't like going to school from his house. Can you go back to court and he can only do every other weekend? And I was like, Okay. So we did that, and then eventually my oldest said, Hey, can you go back to court and just get full custody? Like all of the any changes were prompted by the kids because they felt safe enough to ask and they, I'm sure, were noticing differences in the homes. Um they, yeah, even just the safety, like we're now dealing with stuff where like my oldest has a hard time eating because their father made it so hard. Like as a narcissist, oh, you're hungry. Okay, let's hang out and watch this movie that I want to watch, or watch videos of me skateboarding for two hours, and then I'll get a pizza. It was so hard. Like it sounds crazy and it is, but that it was so hard for them just to be able to eat or sleep that like we're still dealing with these things. Like, hey, it's like we have to say, Hey, I'm I'm making you this food. Let's eat, or you know, you're safe to sleep right now, you don't have to have these issues.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, so Zach Mandy's in, as we mentioned, in Germany. So what is that like right now with the girls?

SPEAKER_05

Um, it's not as hard as I thought it would be. Uh, it's weird. I say I'll just make the fond the heart grow fonder. You know what I'm saying? I feel like it's made me and Bandy grow a lot closer, actually, after all this time. But um for me, it's I work HVAC, so it's the busiest time of the year for me right now. So I'm working all day and then um but the kids now they both work at night, you know, so they're they're working in the evenings when I get home, so it's not too bad. They I don't know, we share the load and they clean up after themselves and everything. So it's there's a team.

SPEAKER_04

There's family time with the three of you. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, we spend a lot of time together, which is weird because when I was a kid, like I never hung out with my parents unless it was like, I don't know, sit down, we're having dinner together or something. I don't know, we just like gravitate, whatever room someone's in, we all just end up in that room together, just hanging out.

SPEAKER_01

If I'm looking for one of them, they're all I'm like, where's my husband? He's not in our room, he's not in the basement. He's hanging out in Max's room, just like he'll just be laying in the bed while they're doing homework at their desk for something. And that that also is so meaningful to me because yeah, I never rightfully never wanted to spend time with my mom. Um, but I also never felt like she wanted to spend time with me.

unknown

Right.

SPEAKER_01

And I think that you know adds to the self-worth issues when you grow up and you're like, well, my own family doesn't even give a shit about me. Like my kids will never feel that way because he's always like, Hey, let's hang out. Hey, do you want to watch a movie? Hey, let's go get dinner.

SPEAKER_04

Like, right, let's let's paint dad's nails.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Or my daughter was like, I want to do I'm I have a face paint idea, and he's like, Cool, let's do it.

SPEAKER_05

That was the 4th of July. I got hey to be Uncle Sam. Hey, there we go.

SPEAKER_03

I I want pictures or it didn't happen.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, there is an episode where I'm in a where where I've got a skirt on and the pink beard episode. Yeah, and the two two. And the yes, and the two.

SPEAKER_04

I will send many photos, don't worry. As we've all said, the the thing that I think makes it all worth it, coming from the one guy part of the Grove Guys podcast that doesn't have children, you know, watching all of you with children, the thing that makes it worth it is the smiles on your kids' faces when you when you show up for them, when you're there for 'em. When you treat your spouse with respect and courtesy. And seeing how the kids because the they're always watching, whether you think they're watching or not, they're always watching. And I know every parent will say, Yeah, John, of course they are. But you know, they they pick up on things even if you you know not sure they're picking up on. And so the fact that we have these positive good relationships and that you know there are our kids are seeing and learning through those. I think set it up better for them than I think most of us had it growing up.

SPEAKER_06

That's true. Hey Mandy, what how do your how do your girls deal with their dad? Have they have they grown there in a in an important way?

SPEAKER_01

Um, so my youngest actually my youngest is non-binary and they had been going by Max for a few years. So we decided to change their name legally. So, you know, with high school and stuff, there were no issues, like everyone had to respect their chosen name.

unknown

Right.

SPEAKER_01

And at that time, Max also decided to change their last name to Zach's last name. Um, and ever since then, Max has not heard anything from their father, um, which also makes sense because the oldest was always his favorite. Like she said years later that anytime the kids were arguing when they were younger, Joe would bend down to Savannah and go, Well, don't be upset, you're my favorite. Like if she was mad that her sister had hit her or something, he's like, But you're my favorite, so you don't have anything to be upset about. When I told him I was leaving, he said, Okay, well, I take Savannah, you take the other one, we never have to see each other again. Um, so he's never unfortunately like really prioritized the youngest, which sucks because they are so cool. Like, not that he has the capacity to value other people, but if he did, like he would understand how much he's missing out on. But um, Savannah has she's amazing, actually. Um, there was, I don't know, maybe 11th grade, like two or three years ago, maybe two years ago in high school. He had called her for some reason during the school day. And um she said she was done with her classwork. So she asked her teacher if she could step outside in the hallway. She went to the hallway, she called him back, and she was like, What is your problem? What do you want? He started like talking about how I've turned them against him, and it's it's such a shame. And she said she was like, I remember you always being angry, I remember you breaking everything. She said, Are you even able to remember the truth? Are you even capable of that? And I like she came home from school today and she like, or not today, but you know, the day it happened, and she casually was just telling me about it and my jaw dropped. I was like, Oh my god. Like she called him back, just like, I'm bored, let's let's um argue with him for a little bit. And but then there have also been things where uh she like so she I don't know if she currently has him blocked, she goes back and forth between it. Um but she the first time that she felt comfortable enough to block him, uh she also brought up, hey, can we practice shooting again? Because I'm afraid that he's gonna come here when Max is home alone and start something. Like she she didn't block him for so long because she was fearful of their safety. Because he would say, I'll just come find you. Like, and that's part of why I didn't leave for so long, because they say, 'I'll find you and I'll kill us all. I don't care. Um and you know, he would tell them that he's gonna come break Zach's nose and stuff.' So for I don't know how many years, Savannah maintained a relationship with him because she was worried that he was gonna c come start something. And she started, you know, feeling more empowered to share more about that. And we're like, no, what do we do? We call a 911, we do that. Like, you have nothing to worry about.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. Um, well, also your daughter just because of how you know she's like, I'm bored, let's talk about this. Like, let's I'm bored. Let's let's let's let's poke this bear a little bit.

SPEAKER_01

Let's I don't have any schoolwork. Let's call this man he's crazy, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Um, it's also big sister vibes for her and good job, Savannah, right?

SPEAKER_01

Like, oh yeah, she is very much a big sister.

SPEAKER_03

Well, and I I think it's also important that by you getting out of that toxic relationship and getting into a good relationship with relationship with Zach and the partnership that you built. Your girls have become comfortable in who they are. And they're willing by example. Exactly. Yeah, and they're they know there's somebody that's got their back, they're not on their own. There's a support system behind them.

SPEAKER_02

Breaking that generational trauma is a difficult thing. Yeah. To see that you're able to do it together and take the guidance to show them that this is how we're gonna do it.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, and that's the real reason that we're all here having this conversation is because Mandy broke that cycle.

SPEAKER_01

Yep, yep. I remember that was part of his wedding vows. Do you remember? It was like you're the end of one long cycle and the beginning of a new one, and oh broke me.

SPEAKER_04

Well, here, let's we're at a good point here. Let's take a quick break and we'll be right back. I know it's a long way off, but October is domestic violence month. We've been talking about it for pretty much this entire episode. But if you do have domestic violence in your relationship or know someone who is going through it, know someone who is uh struggling, there are many ways in which you can reach out. You can be a person of support or you can have them call the domestic violence hotline at 1-800-799 and that's 7233. You can also chat live online. You can also text start to 88788. Once again, if you're struggling with uh domestic violence, know someone who is uh seeing domestic violence, then just know that we are all part of a community here. We want you to reach out, we want you to be safe and find that person that you can trust and be with. And we're back in. So we've heard a lot from Mandy, and first of all, Mandy, thank you for sharing and we appreciate you being here. And Zach, you as well. We appreciate you uh confirming and being a part of this conversation with us. But as we kind of find a way to wrap all this up, um Mandy, what what do you feel we can do as men to be that good guy and to not dip into toxic masculinity, if you will? Like what does that look like from the female perspective?

SPEAKER_01

I I think a lot of it honestly comes down to not being a hundred percent sure that you already are the peak specimen. Like if you go into it, you don't have to think that you're like a piece of crap, but if you go into any type of situation or relationship understanding that anyone can be better, and that includes you, you have the curiosity and the willingness to make changes and become a better version of your same self. Like often when you're arguing with you know your typical, typical like alpha male. They're 100% sure that every opinion that they have is correct just because they're holding that opinion. And everything that they do is correct because if it wasn't, they wouldn't be doing it. So there's no like willingness to change, let alone a desire for it. So I think primarily just being interested in maybe there are ways that I can change. Maybe I'm not 100% perfect, um, which really goes for everybody. But I think men tend to cling to that more that you know I'm right. Um and also what environments are you choosing to put yourself in? Who are you choosing to surround yourself with? Like we were talking before, and I was like, you know, there are definitely friends that he's had that I would not at this point feel comfortable with him going out with. Like if Zach was like, hey, um, I'm gonna go out with John and Steve and Ron and Chad, and we're gonna spend a weekend about and we're probably just gonna get fucked up all weekend. I'd be like, okay, cool, zero worries. Like, because we're we're aligned. It's not like you guys aren't out here trying to get him to do things outside of his character, and we've definitely known other guys like that.

SPEAKER_04

Because we're all part of the same community. We had to throw one in there.

SPEAKER_07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

But Zach, hearing Mandy say that, what does that does what does that strike up in you?

SPEAKER_05

Emotion. Um like the I think one of the biggest things for me is learning to calm before I make decisions or have conversations with people. Um, I mentioned earlier the the book that Mandy introduced me earlier on, Dr. Laura Markham. Um The Three C's, Calm, Connect, and Coach. Um my whole life I was taught that women are the emotional ones. And like that's the reason they shouldn't run for office and B CEOs and things like that. Like that's what I was taught as a child. Obviously, that's very wrong. Um I feel like men are much more emotional personally. I I feel like uh a lot of my worst moments are when my emotions are out of check and I'm making decisions based on those instead of based on what's actual and what reality is. So if you have to make a decision, you know what I'm saying? If you feel yourself if you're angry, um step back from that and find a way to not be angry about it and then approach the situation because our emotions lie to us, they cause us to think and feel things that aren't real. You know, they cause us to misconstrue things. And uh anger is just fear, anyways. So figure out what you're afraid of and go from there. And that's been huge for me. Like just recognizing, like, oh, I'm pissed off about something, then I must be afraid of something. Yeah. And looking at it from that perspective, it just it creates a little bit of space and allows you to be like, you know, am I making the best decision for me and my family, or am I just making a decision that's gonna satisfy my ego and my emotion, my anger that I feel right now?

SPEAKER_04

So we kind of hit on that earlier with you saying that you the girl saying that you come back and apologize to him or talk to him after a fight happens of any kind, a confrontation of any kind, you come back and you apologize and take you know, make your amends take your accountability for it.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, because we're taught like as young men, when somebody's angry at you, it's because you've done something wrong. And I think it programs us to think that when we're angry, someone else has done something wrong. You know?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, that's the deep thought right there.

SPEAKER_06

That's a great point. Yeah, yep. Yeah, yeah. I I will um I will take a little exception with the men are more emotional. I think humans generally are emotional beings, but I think the idea that you brought up about calmness works in both sexes, right? Like anytime that you're working from an emotional perspective, you're going to make decisions based on information that's not real, to your point. Okay. So I think it it doesn't matter uh what your chromosomes say, if you're emotional, you're gonna make a bad decision. Right. Uh not always a bad decision, but you're more likely to make a bad decision, I should say. If you allow your emotions to control you, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, but like society, women are women acknowledge their emotions sooner because that's right, we're emotional, whereas men are not emotional. So if a man is feeling scared or sad, no, he's not.

SPEAKER_04

Stuff it down. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Right, but men have always been told stuff it down. Women have always been told you need to get over that and and and go deal with it, go talk with your girls, go exactly. It it's everybody's been told to handle it differently, yeah, which makes it really hard to handle nowadays.

SPEAKER_06

That's right. So it's yeah, that which is exactly my point, Chad. So it's not that one or the other doesn't have emotion or whatever, it's just that what how we treat it and react to it is very different, and there's a difference between acting calm and being calm, right? Yeah, right. So um understanding that and working from that perspective is helpful. There are many times where I act calm and I am on the inside and definitely not freaking out, yeah. Right, exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_04

We we've kind of touched on it, but that that idea of you know calm. Um and even the whole, you know, with what we've learned today and even talked about today, you know, and Zach, we'll start with you. Um what do you feel that that looks like, especially maybe even to the girls? Like how we how have you been that example? What is that not to put you on the spot here, I'm sorry. But what does that look like to the girls? Like what have what have you kind of taken away from your relationship with Mandy and with Savannah and Max and you know, getting these three new people in your life? What does that look like for you?

SPEAKER_05

Um I played a lot of uh video games as a kid, and one of the things that it taught me was that it does it's not always about how good you are or something, it's about the tactics that you use. You can try a different thing. You don't have to just keep trying the same thing over and over again. And that's been uh I feel like one of my greatest uh assets with having a family is being like they're different people, they're all three unique, even though they're so similar. So like each one's gonna respond in a different way. And it's up to me to be uh as stable as possible, you know what I'm saying? And finding that calm and everything to give them uh anchor so that I can react accordingly to each person, you know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, yeah, definitely. So Mandy, would you agree with him that that's kind of has Zach's calm been the most or one of the greatest aspects of him?

SPEAKER_01

Oh god, I there are like a bajillion greatest aspects of him. I know, I know. That's why I said one of it's it's definitely um something I appreciate and value. And even when, like, you know, years and years ago, it might be no, I'm not upset. What are you talking about? And now it's like, hey, I'm upset, I'm noticing I'm stressed out about this, I'm gonna go take some time, let's talk about it later. Um and that's that's like that's even in a moment of conflict when that happens, that's what I want my kids to see.

SPEAKER_07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Um yeah, just the hey, I'm I'm upset, I need to chill out, and then we'll talk about it.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, that's and that's somebody that you're safe enough with that respects you enough that will give you that you know, time that you need. Yeah, and then trying to figure something out earlier in our relationship.

SPEAKER_01

I when I was learning how to feel safe and and trust the safety, I still had like the alarms going off, the danger, danger, he's upset. I need to fix this right now. And I would be like, no, we have to talk about it now. Like we need we need a resolution, like let's let's fix this now. And I had to just realize I'm safe even if he's unhappy. So it's best if there is some space. And like, yeah.

SPEAKER_04

And who was the first one to kind of point that out? Like, we're upset, we shouldn't be talking about this right now, or was that just kind of a natural, like, let's separate at the moment for that?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I think we had different ways of doing it because I yeah, when I am the most upset I could possibly be, I turn into a robot and like my voice is flat, and I'm like, this is not a productive conversation right now. Let's reassess this at a later date. And that's not always the best in the moment because the other person's like, you're not hearing me.

SPEAKER_07

Yes.

SPEAKER_01

Um, and he had his own way of being like, I don't want to talk about this. Like he would just walk away. And then later he's like, I'm doing that because we're not going to be able to have a conversation right now. But when he would do that, then it would trigger in me like, no, I need to fix this or something really bad is gonna happen. So and and he also had to realize like when I was turning into that calm robot, I wasn't not engaging with him to punish him or anything. It was just me like we need to be able to do this in a better way.

SPEAKER_07

So we we had our own responses, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and you know, things cool down, you talk about it and you go, Well, I did that because here how I was feeling. And here's how I was okay. So next time, let's try this. And then you agree to try this other thing next time. And you know, it got you where, like, if he walked away, I'm like, okay, he's walking away because he's recognizing he's upset and I'm safe, so I don't need to try to push for a fix right now.

SPEAKER_04

Right, he'll come back when he's ready and we'll we'll fix it then. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, and I think that's what I feel like most of us can take away from um our relationships as a whole. You know, I I do this a lot, but speaking for the other four guy the regular uh four guys here, um you know, we all have relationships where times get tumultuous. You know, people have their emotions and yet we've all been in healthy enough relationships that it's okay, take the time you need, we'll talk about this when we're ready. We'll discuss this when we're ready because I know all would be eight of us. Yeah, one, two, three, four. No, ten. All ten of us math is hard. Uh all ten of us have I feel like have found that person that not necessarily completes us, but that person that is willing that says we're on this team, we're doing this together.

SPEAKER_02

They enable us to be the our most complete selves. Yeah. Oh yeah, yeah, and that's and I think that that's you know a huge thing because in my you know, my first marriage, whenever you know, my ex-wife would uh stop talking, we never had a resolve. There would be no resolve. And so that that was triggering for me because that's you know, Lindsay has to step away from a situation in order to process it first before she can communicate. And so because I was so used to that first way of doing things, right? That disconnect as soon as I think it was always like, well, I guess we're not gonna talk about this anymore, and then you know, then she'd come back and want to talk about it. And even in that instance, whenever it would be brought back up again, it would be brought back up in a different way. But needless to say, like you were mentioning, Mandy, is that it's nice to have that safety to be, you know, that ability to feel safe, to know that this person's not gonna leave at the drop of a hat, you know, or come at you with this or come.

SPEAKER_01

So many houses. If he was having a bad day, I'm like, oh, guess we're done. I'm looking on Zillow. I'm like, okay, I need to find something I can afford. Like it took so long for me to be like, oh, no, he can have a bad day, whether it has anything to do with me or not, and we're still okay. Like, because you know, previously growing up and with my previous relationship, any bad day, like if a song came on the radio that he didn't like, it was my fault and we're in trouble. So being able to just really I mean, because any anyone can say, no, this isn't this isn't gonna impact you. I'm just upset and I'm allowed to be upset. But it's having the consistent time where I'm seeing that, where I can get to a point where I can believe that, like, oh, you are upset and nothing bad is happening to me. You are upset and the kids aren't in danger. Like it it took some time and I finally did believe it. So now I'm at a point where, like, oh, you're upset. Sucks for you. Talk to me later when you want to.

SPEAKER_04

Like and to calm out Zach's over here smiling and slightly nodding, confirming what you're saying.

SPEAKER_01

I mean, even like I've even gotten to a point where I'm like, hey, I don't like that tone of voice that you're using. And he's like, Oh, okay, sorry about that. Like, maybe you're still pissed at me, but like I feel safe enough to say this, and you're responsive enough, that's gonna encourage me to say it again.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, I was raised uh, I don't know, and be in the military and stuff, like guys are just brutal with each other, the way that we talk to each other and stuff. And so I've never like censored myself, you know, like I'm talking to people. And uh, so she's like, hey, that's calm, like chill. Okay, you're right. You know, I didn't have to say that. I was like it doesn't matter if it's true or not. You know, it's other things to think about, right?

SPEAKER_04

Well does anybody have anything else that they want to add in?

SPEAKER_06

Yeah, I just just real quick. I mean, what we're talking about there is building trust, right? Yep, like that that that's all that is, is oh yeah, it takes time to understand how we each worked and be able to trust those responses. So yeah, that that's really uh that's really great. That's really great. But yeah, no, no, I'm good.

SPEAKER_02

And I think that that trends, you know, that that goes to other relationships that you have, friendships, you know, because I feel like that that, you know, whenever you've been in a situation like that, is that whenever you feel like a friend is, you know, not not reacting in a way that you feel like that they need to react, then there's this like thing inside of you like, oh, what what did I do? What did I do wrong? What do I need to do to fix this? And and so, you know, having that safety with uh friendships, you know, to be able to to do that as well is something that you have to learn to process through and you know, and to do. And I know that whenever something's going on, I know that I can reach out to, you know, any of you all and you know, say something, or you know, if I need to process through something that maybe I'm not seeing, you guys can be like, hey, here's XYZ. Exactly. You know, yep. And so that's that's what's what's that again? What do we got here? Community.

SPEAKER_03

At least he didn't push the button himself this time.

SPEAKER_02

One time. I learned my lesson. I learned my lesson. He got glared out when he's that's right.

SPEAKER_03

Um I would just like to say, I mean, Mandy, I've not known you that long, but I am so glad that you have found uh your equal, your happiness, um, and that your your family is is happy and your girls are happy. I mean, it's uh you deserve that. You really do. And Zach, I I think you probably uh deserve what you're getting with Mandy too. Um, because I know it's all good. Uh so I'm just I'm really happy for both of you. I uh I it's great to hear something so bad has turned into something so good.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, we'll have to have Mandy's mom open a daycare to make more Mandy's.

SPEAKER_06

That's that's not how daycares work.

SPEAKER_02

Oh boy. All right.

SPEAKER_07

That'll be for the next episode.

SPEAKER_04

We're not we're not gonna ladies and gentlemen, that will not be our next episode.

SPEAKER_06

But we learned that explicitly tag one way or the other, I guess. Uh well we appreciate conversation today, guys. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_04

And Mandy, we appreciate you so much for all that you do for the community and for all of us as a whole. And thank you so much for sharing everything you shared today. Zach, thank you for being here as well. Thanks for having me. And we will catch you all in the next one.

SPEAKER_01

I was waiting. I was waiting for Ron to say that.