NMG Presents: Behind The Music - Jake Day

Alex Elbro hosts the first episode in a new series of in-depth interviews with some of the East Anglian music scenes most popular figures. In episode 1, Jake Day joins Alex to talk about his career to date starting from his early band days, setting up a recording studio business through to touring Europe as part of Brave Liaison

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NMG presents Behind the Music with Alex Elbro. Hello, I'm Alex Elbro and welcome to Behind the Music. In this series we look beyond the music to discover life, the passion, and the stories behind the artists that we love. I'll be sitting down with musicians and exploring what shapes them, what inspires them, and how their personal stories are woven into their music. And today I'm really delighted to have musician and producer Jake Day here. Now I first met Jake when he was a guitarist with Tom Lumley and the Brave Liaison, which became Brave Liaison, as you may know. He's an award-winning music producer, having won NMG Awards Producer of the Year for 2018, 2019, and 2021. And in addition, Tom Lumley and the Bravely also won the NMG Breakout Artist of the Year in 2021. I'm really looking forward to finding out how he's got on and how he is now. And welcome to the show, Jake. Thank you very much for having me. Now, Jake, let's go right back to when you first started like being involved with music. Can you your earliest memories of being involved with music? Well, where I grew up in Little Catworth, which is now where my studio is, there's four houses, and three of them are my family. So I lived basically across the road from my uncle, and my uncle played keyboards in a band, and also had a studio in a barn opposite his house. So uh I started by playing keyboards because he took me to one of his friends who was a keyboard piano teacher. So I started with keyboards. I don't remember really being super interested in playing keyboard, but it was when my keyboard teacher started playing guitar and then decided to like divert into teaching guitar alongside keyboard. I was like, I want to play guitar. And uh, so then I changed over to guitar, which maybe maybe my uncle wasn't too pleased about, but I was still involved in music, so uh, yeah. Then I transitioned to guitar, probably around eight or nine years old. So still quite young to be and you were saying then that you you did keyboard, so did you have lessons? You had lessons Yeah, I had lessons on the keyboard first. I I think I passed grade one playing English Country Gardens. That's the only thing I remember. That's the only song I remember being able to play on keyboard. English Country Gardens, and then transitioned onto guitar. But because my keyboard teacher, who was trying to be a guitar teacher at the time, wasn't really a guitar player, I then my uncle found another guitar teacher who he'd actually played in bands with, who was very well known in the area and still is now, Owen Edwards, um, very reputable, reputable guitar teacher. So I've moved to him, I was probably 10 or 11 when I started guitar lessons with him, and I stayed having guitar lessons until I was 18 and went to university. That's when my guitar lessons ended. But yeah, so I played guitar from about 10 till well now. I still play guitar now. Exactly. So so you would you say that was your sort of your favourite instrument? Absolutely, as soon as I picked up the guitar. I only knew how to play one chord, but I was obsessed from right on then because I was just writing songs with that one chord that I knew. But that just shows, isn't it? I think there's sometimes that you try different instruments and and then you find the one that's for you, and I know that's um with a lot of people, they're often given like a recorder or whatever to start off with, and then you could that can go either way, can't it? That can put you right off. Or but because you've got keyboards are quite young, so that means you've got a basic understanding as well of keyboards and playing a um the music through like a keyboard as well. Yeah, I wish I'd stuck to it to be honest, because I mean at the time I thought keyboard isn't cool, guitar's way cooler. Yeah, yeah. But now I really wish I could play piano to a you know a good extent because when you sit down at a piano, you can play a piece of music and y it's complete almost. Whereas a guitar, you sit down, you can't play the lead line and the chords at the same time unless you're one of these virtuosos. Yeah, yeah. I mean I never really thought about that. That's a really good point. Why piano is um it's because you're doing the chords and the melodies at the same time. So you can play like a complete piece of music. Yeah, and other instruments aren't, yeah. But it's good as a producer that you are now, it's good that you've got that understanding of other instruments. So I think it must be hard if you don't have that, how you can really make understand how things work and how they'll go together. Yeah, and being a a guitar player, I think that helps with being a producer as well. Like obviously, if you're sufficient on a piano, you'll still you can still be a really good producer. But because I can play guitar, it also means I can play bass. Um so and I can play drums, I'm like self-taught on drums. So I can piece together almost anything, but you know, my main instrument is guitar, which means I'm good on bass as well. So then when a single songwriter comes to me and they only they can play, you know, the chords on their guitar and they can sing the melodies that they've and the lyrics they've written, you can I can I can piece the other stuff around it. Yeah. Um we're gonna play some of the music that you've produced and some of the ones that you've been in um throughout this show. Now, um which is the band that you're gonna do first? We're gonna look at some of the people that you produce, aren't we? Yeah. So who's the first one? Is this the first person you produced or is it just a first person? This is so I opened the studio in February 2015, and one of the earliest bands that I worked with around that time were called The Rose Affair, and they were local to Huntingdon where the the studio sort of is in the same area. So I'd seen them play gigs, you know, in Huntingdon a number of times, and I was like, Oh, I really like this band. Like the music they were playing was completely up my street. So almost in a way, like begged them in a way, like, yeah, please, I've just opened a recording studio, come come work with me. And it was actually, I got the drummer Jacob, I became friends with him, and I was like, just just come to the studio and record some drums and see what you think. So we did like one day of an afternoon of recording drums, and then he was then he went back and told the rest of the band, like, Oh, we've got to go and record some songs here. So the first song we did together was this song called Napoli, and um they were quite well in with um BBS Introducing at the time and Tom Simpkins, who was on BBS Introducing at the time. So we did this first song together, Napoli, and we were we were all super pleased with it. Then a few weeks later, once it got released, um it was actually played on Radio One, so it was the first time anything I'd worked on got played on Radio One, and it was way ahead of like the own my own timeline in my head. I didn't think I'd be getting a Radio One play anytime soon, so that like was really exciting. I still can still remember it now, like sit sitting up late on my laptop to listen to Hugh Stevens play that song. I was just like crazy. I mean that is pretty good on your first song with them, yeah. Yeah, first song you've ever produced with them as well. And we're gonna hear that now. Yeah. What great memories, eh? Yeah, that is a that is a throwback. Going back to listening to that song again. Such I have so many good memories of with the Rose Affair, because because they came and did like over the years, well, probably around 20 songs with me. So it was like every other month they come in to do another single, so yeah. And did you say that was 2015? Well, it came out in 2016. I started the studio in 2015, so it was we either recorded it very late in 2015 and it came out and then in 2016, or we recorded it early 2016 and then it came out shortly after that. That's still like 10 years ago, so it's it's brilliant, isn't it? Yeah, I was just starting out, so like I wasn't really good at that time, and I remember um having a bit of a meltdown because I obviously really wanted to work with this band and I wanted the first song to really impress them. So I I we recorded it and I mixed it the first time around, and I was like, no, I'm not happy with this. Like came back to the mix and then had my little meltdown where you're like, this isn't good enough, I don't have to restart. So I mixed it then twice, completely all the way through, and I was happy with the second mix. So then when it then went on to get played on Radio One, I was like, I'm so glad. Yeah, I you know, sat down and was just like, no, this isn't where it needs to be, I'm starting again. But that's probably why you know you're doing so well, and people know that you're good, and you have won producer of the year three times, so gonna mention it again. Because that is that going back and attention to detail, not just saying, Oh, I'm just gonna record, you're just gonna turn everything on, and then that's it, lads, off you go. You know, it's not it's not how it works, is it? Not for me, anyway, yeah. Because I've I've always been that like I have my own benchmark, and if I don't hit that, then I'm not happy with it, and then I don't want it to go out. Like, if my name's gonna go on it, I want it to be as good as it can possibly be. So I don't care if I have to start again two times, three times. I need to get it to the level where it it needs to be in my head. Yeah, now going back to something you said before, you said when you first got your guitar, even though you could play just one chord, you were starting to write songs. So have you been writing songs ever since then? So like you were nine-ten or whatever. I can only remember like having an interest in original music, and even now, like I'll pick up a guitar. I I've never really been interested in learning other people's songs. So when you know opportunities have been function bands or play on cruise ships came around, I was like, that's just not my cup of tea because whenever I pick up a guitar or any instrument, the first thing I start doing is just like twiddling around, and I I just want to write music, like melodies sort of just come to you, you put notes together, and that's my main interest. I'm not really interested in learning other people's songs. So that's why you know, when a a singer-songwriter brings a song to me, or I'm working with a band, I just ideas are always flowing. Yeah. When you're in the studio of a band, it's like, oh, what about you try this? What if a bit if you try that? I think it's made me more creative, just you know, always experimenting, like every time I pick up an instrument. Well, it's perfect for being a producer as well, because you're not going to be stuck to one. Yeah, there is there is no real recipe. Like especially if you've That's the thing, if if I'd have stuck with piano, I feel like piano players they know music theory very quickly and it all makes sense to them. They they almost have rules in a way. It's like if you if you're classically trained on on any instrument, you sort of see that training as the rules and like the fences that you have to like, oh if we're playing that chord, it's obvious that we'll go to that chord next, but I've never been interested in that way of writing or learning music, so it's just whatever whatever sounds right to me. And that, you know, horses for courses, isn't it? So you know, when a classically trained person plays with an orchestra or plays, you know, a in a big concert hall, they've got to do it right because everyone else is exactly knowing. Yeah. But if you're um sometimes that people they really struggle to do anything then creative because they've just they've learned to do it that one way, yeah. Creative isn't probably the right word because they are doing something creative, but you know, to use their imagination, do something else. No, like like you said, they don't want to break the rules because you can't put a clashing chord in there because that's gonna sound yes, it's gonna sound really crunchy, and that's what we want for that sound or whatever. So yeah. No, you mentioned also um about going into bands and things. When was your first band then? I was in year eight or year nine of secondary school, so I would have been I think around 13. So um I moved to Grapham with my mum and brother, and there was so like I started getting the school bus to Hinchenbrook from Graham, and there were some older lads in the village on the bus that um they were in interested in music as well. Like one of the guys, Max, played guitar, the the other guy in the village called Ben played drums, and they wanted to start doing something, but so they'd started jamming just the two of them that they didn't have a band yet. So they saw me take my guitar on the bus to school, and they're like, Oh, do you play guitar? Do you have lessons? I was like, Yeah, yeah, have lessons. They were like, Do you want to come round Ben's house tonight for a jam? So then I went round and I had had no band experience at that at that time. I'd literally basically only knew what my guitar teacher had taught me at that point. So then we just went round Ben's house. Uh Max taught me some songs on on the guitar, and we then we were jamming straight away. So that was my first band. We were called In Need of Therapy. And then we even back then And how old were you? I was 13. I love that you were called In Need of Therapy at 13. That's brilliant, and then uh yeah, so we we played like village gigs, like village fates. We even like there was a village hall in Graham, and we'd like rent it out, put all the tables out as a stage, like duct tape them together, and then like invite all our mates around and like put a gig on at the village hall. I mean that's the shape of things to come, isn't it? You know, that's that if you want it from that age, that's that's all you see. Did you do anything though with the the songs that you were writing, or were you just mainly like jamming them yourself from like when you're early? Did you or did you bring those into your into the early set, yeah? So um we wrote two or three original songs, it wasn't enough for a whole whole set, so we we then back then we didn't have a clue about recording. Like we had these like four-track boss recorder things, but you'd plug your guitar in, you'd you wouldn't I don't even think we had a click track at this point. We we bought this like boss four-track recorder, you plug in, you record one thing on one track, and then you've got a fader, so like the level of that is that loud. Then you record the bass, and then you've got the fader on that, and then if you were everything the same left almost like you could uh oh you could um change the level of each piece, but then because you've only got four tracks available, so you record your four things. Say we've got we've got drums recorded with one microphone on that track, then bass, then one guitar, then the other guitar. Right, we've used up our four tracks. Now what do we do? We you bounce those four tracks down onto the first track, then you've got three tracks available. I mean, it was a mission and we had no idea what we were doing, but we tried we tried our best. And uh, yeah, so we had early demos and we played like the concerts at school and stuff like that. We did what we could with what we had available and what knowledge we had available, which was not very much. And and did you think in those back in those days, was there any uh influences in music? Were you listening to stuff that you liked? What did you have anything that you particularly liked at the time? Nothing is guilty or anything like that. I could see you laughing already. Well, listen so we had these two or three original songs in the set, and then I think like the rest of the set was Green Day. Oh, yeah. Just because Green Day was sort of easy to learn, but very fun to play. And obviously, American Idiot the album was absolutely massive at this point. Yeah. Like you couldn't turn on one of the music channels and Green Day not be on it. Like American Idiot was everywhere, so like the rest of the set we knew like ten Green Day songs. So even though I did say I'm not bit interested in learning other people's songs, we had we had a set to fill out and we liked Green Day. Yeah, so that's so it was basically our songs and Green Day songs. I mean, good choice. I remember s I must have seen Green Day around that time at that um uh in Wembley or somewhere, and they were superb at the time. They were uh the s the songs still are massive for a reason. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So from there then, um did was there a time so you went you said you played with that, did you carry on with that band up till like you left for uni or did you In different iterations? Right, yeah, so um In Need A Ferra Pri probably lasted two years, and then the older lads were then like around six form age, so the band got a bit more serious, we changed names a number of times, had new members come in, had new other members leave, etc. etc. Um so then it sort of transformed into Satellite to Nowhere, and I was in that band for a while, so we played the Junction Fiverr back when I was like 16, so almost I don't know, 15-16 years ago I was playing the Junction Fiverr and it's still going now, which is awesome to see. I was I was at I was at a Junction Fiverr like three or four weeks ago. Yeah, no, it is brilliant. I think it's one of the best things that this area does for for young artists, and to give you play on on J1. I mean, yeah, you you can't really beat it. Awesome experience. I remember it even back then. Like and backstage you see all the people that have signed the walls and the stickers everywhere. It's like, oh my goodness, they played it. And now we're about to play the same stage. It's like so inspiring and so motivating. And when you go to see a gig there for somebody that's you're standing in the thing thinking I was up there. Yeah, imagine that after like 15, 16, 17 years of like, I played that stage last week and now I'm seeing like one of my favourite bands on there. So apart from Green Day, did you have anyone else? Or was it just because that was band led that you were listening to them? I mean, I've pop punk sort of Green Day music is probably what I was listening to most around that time. Yeah. It was always guitar-driven music, Paramour, Jimmy World, they're some of my favourite bands, even now. So I still feel like I'm inspired by the same bands that I was then almost now, like the killers. Um so all the way through my like production work and my music career, yeah, I've always been I've had my favourite bands and they've always inspired me. The production on their records have inspired me all day through, and then you know, new bands come and go. Yeah, now um you said that you went off to uni at 18 and you said before that you did um your music GCSE, which you said was boring. Now, why why was that boring? Because it because you had to just do what was said. Yeah, because GCSE music was all about like classical music and Baroque music, and it wasn't really about modern music at all. No. So and it was almost so also more like theory based, like, oh, when was this music popular or what if we mention Baroque music, what time period was that from? And it's like it wasn't at all about writing and playing original. Music really to like my one interest, and I felt like I knew from you know a young age that I was passionate about music and that's what I wanted to pursue, so it just made sense that I'd do music GCSC, and then when I was in that class, I was like, Why am I taking this? Yeah, why am I here? I'm not interested in this stuff, but you know, it still gives you a basis and some knowledge. Yeah, looking back, I guess. You know not the time, but maybe looking back. But then you went on to do is it music technology. Yeah, music technology in A level, yeah. Which is is probably maybe they wouldn't have let me do that if I hadn't done music GCSE. So you probably have to get like a pass grade in music GCSE to do at least another music course to A-level. So I'm maybe I'm glad I did it. And then that was just when I like got so interested in music production and music technology because like the older lads that I was in a band with from my village, they'd gone off to Cambridge Regional College to do music technology. Oh, yeah, yeah. So like we were still rec you know record going round each other's houses after after school or college to record, you know, our little demos. Had you moved up from the four track by this place? They'd got like some Sony acid recording software on their computer that they'd like hacked from somewhere. Yeah. Yeah, we weren't talking about that. Yeah. Yeah, we weren't talking about that. They they'd got some recording software from somewhere, and then we we're just working it out as we as we go along, but uh because obviously they were getting taught music technology at college, yeah, they had a better understanding than I did. So, you know, they were funnelling stuff down to me, teaching me almost as we did it, like, oh yeah, this is what I'm doing to record this, this is what I'm doing to record that. And then around 1617, someone at my mum's where my mum worked was selling uh a MacBook. Oh, okay. She was like, Oh, you know, my work quality's selling this MacBook, would it be good for your, you know, recording music? I was like, yes, absolutely, because by that point my friends had moved on to Logic, which is uh you can only use on an Apple device. So they were using Logic at college, so I'd seen them using Logic. I was like, oh, if I get a MacBook, then I can get Logic and I can start recording. And as soon as I got that laptop, it was just I was constantly. And so were you using that for your A-level could use that? So that's which almost uh backfired in a way because the A-level course was based on Q Base, and I'd become so proficient with logic already from just being on logic the entire time. It got to the exam because I'd done all my coursework on logic as well, so like I knew logic really well even back then. I'm still on logic now because people people did say, like, why haven't you moved to Pro Tools? Because that's like the industry standard. But I was I was so quick on logic and I just knew my way around logic so well that I still use it now. Um, but it came to the final A-level exam on Cubase, and I just realized in that exam, from like the first question, I was like, I've shot myself in the foot here. Like, I know how to do all this stuff so quickly on logic, and then I was just having like right, I was just gonna have to take the principles from logic and work my way around Cubase, like it must be here somewhere, but I can just I can remember just sat there sweating because I did not know Q Base well enough to be, you know, sitting that exam. And the the stupid thing about all of the things with exams is it does matter because you need to then use that to go on to something else. But in life it didn't matter because you're gonna be always using the other system anyway. But these hurdles that you know the system has put in for everybody, uh it science kind of drives me nuts sometimes. Same way with grades. I always think like if you if you choose not to do grades when you're learning an instrument, it's great, you can have and then that they you get to college and they say, Well, what have you um what grades are you on? And say, Well, I don't do grades. Oh well, you you can't come in then really, you know. Like, how can we we can't judge you then if to say not that they couldn't just get you to play something or do something, so anyway, that's my personal gripe on that. Yeah, I I was lucky actually when I so I got good, you know, good grun good enough grades to go to university and get into the course that I wanted to do. And you again you went into a music course, didn't you? Yeah, I did commercial music, and at the time there was only two universities offering that course. Because I didn't I was gonna take a gap year because I wasn't sure which road of music I wanted to go down. Like I knew I loved recording music, but I also loved being in a band and I loved playing guitar. So I thought maybe at the time, oh maybe I'll be a session musician, or maybe I'm you know don't know enough about music technology yet to go to university, so maybe I need to do a year at CRC to do music technology. Then you know the price of university went was going up the next year. I'm like, well, if I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna do it now. So yeah, there was only two and my my best friend Oscar told me about this course, commercial music, that he'd applied to, and like when I looked into it, it was like it had a basis of all the music industry. You didn't have to specialise in production, you didn't have to specialise in performance until the final year when you've like worked out what you want to do. But it also did music business, lyric writing, aesthetics, and like you know, styling your own band, styling yourself, coming up with an image. It almost covered everything. I was like, oh, this sounds great. And that was at Bath Spa. Yeah, so I ended up going to Bath Spa, but the other one was in London Westminster. Oh right. So uh I got interviews at both of them, and I was lucky enough to get into both of them, like I had my choice at that point. But so I went to the Westminster interview first, and my mum drove me there, and I was obviously really, really nervous. Yeah. Um, and we pulled up we pulled off the road up to this building, which I obviously thought was the university at this point, but turns out it was a hospital. It was like a really like run-down growth. I'm not even sure if it was still like there's still patients going in there, but it looked like this like really run-down, dark, dingy building. I was like, I'm not coming to university here. Luckily, the campus was actually behind that university and it was really nice. But uh, then I went to my interview at Bath's Bar, which the campus is like three or four miles outside of Bath, and Bath itself is absolutely lovely. Yeah, it has a very similar vibe to Cambridge, it's like clean, there's limestone, it's very safe. Yeah. Um, but the campus is like three miles outside of the centre, and it's just surrounded by fields and cows. So I pulled up to my interview there, and I was like, this feels like home. Growing up in Little Catworth, where there's four houses in the middle of nowhere, surrounded by fields, I was like, Yeah, this is m my sort of thing. So I ended up yeah choosing choosing Bath Spa. And so you did three years there, and then so it sounds like a really interesting course, and like almost like why isn't everybody that want in music doing like even a bit of this so that you can do a bit of business? Because I think some of those other things, if you are a musician, you know, singer songwriter or in a band, you want to do that, and then all life is the bit that's the really hard bit about uh business and uh you know styling and and all of those things you just mentioned, you know, produ getting producer and knowing what you want to ask a producer or whatever. So sounds like a brilliant course. Did you enjoy it? Oh, I did really enjoy it, and but it gave you the freedom because it like, you know, the first year they sort of like what would you say, uh touched on all of these subjects, and then it gets a little bit more refined in the second year, and then by the time you get to the third year, you you should like, well, they want you to know which avenue you want to go down. So like you do your final year project in y in the third year on either performance or production. So like at that point, as I knew from the second year, because during the second year, the one of the best parts of the second year was um you you form a band in the first year, so like you form your bands, and you can be in multiple bands, but then but the second year you have to like pinpoint down to which band you want to spend that year on, and you write five songs, you record an EP yourselves in the st in the st university studios, and then you go out on tour, and they like show you how to book a tour, uh promote a tour, and you actually go out on the tour as part of the course. But being in the studio in the second year, you know, recording our EP that we'd written, that's when I really fell in love with being in the studio and became completely obsessed with it. So when it came to specialising in the third year in production, you're supposed to only be allowed to book a certain amount of time in the studios each week, but because lots of people were doing it at home on their in their uni halls on their computers, there was loads of free time in the studio, so my name was always popping up. Like, and it got to the point where like, uh well, you're only really technically allowed two hours, but no one's booked it. So, Jake, do you want these like six hours in the studio? I was like, Yes. Yeah, I just spent so much time in the university studios because I came completely. Well the equipment and everything as well, you know. Absolutely, it was amazing. You might as well now I realised we've been talking for a long time, and I'd love to get on to uh the video that you've chosen to play. Now tell us about this. This is when you're with Tom Lumley and the Brave Vierz on. Yeah, so I came out of university, did the studio for probably I'd had the studio up and running two or three years before my mate Jason said, Oh, I've got a friend called Tom. I'd actually seen Tom play play a gig or two before this point, and I'd given him a business card for the studio. So was that when he was sort of I I'm doing this like I'm knuckle. Like I play guitar. Um he was that when he was doing sort of more singer-songwriter stuff, or was he in a band by this? He had a band. Right. Um, but then when he c he had written and recorded an EP and he wanted to tour that EP and the rest of his band at the time were going down the function band route and you know wanted to make money out of music, which is fair enough. So he need he wanted to find another band that were willing to go down the original music route and go out go out on tour that that he'd booked. So he asked my friend Jason to play guitar and asked Jason, Do you know any drummers? And he was like, Oh, my mate, Jake can sort of play drums. So I was originally meant to be the drummer, yeah, and then Jason decided that you know he had a family and he couldn't commit to doing this tour. So Tom was like, Jake, do you know any guitarists? I was like, Well, actually, I'm more of a guitarist and I would much rather play guitar. Yeah. So that's what I didn't even do one band practice on the drums. Uh yeah, getting onto getting onto the screen. So so so that's how you met Tommy. That's how I met Tom through and you were straight out on tour. Almost, yeah. Basically, we had like one or two band practices. We then shot a music video for one of the songs on the EP, and like at this point, we'd not really even met each other. I think we met Billy, the bass player, at that video shoot. We'd all learnt our parts. We'd turn up at this video shoot. I think me, Johnny, the drummer, and Tom had had one band practice in his uh parents' living room before this music video. We all met at this music video, and uh then further down the line, you know, it became it started out as Tom Lumley because the EP was his, he'd written and recorded it. Then we became we jailed more as a band. We were like then writing music as a band together. So it became Tom Lumley and the Brave Liaison in order to represent it as a band. Because if you see, you know, Tom Lumley on a poster, everyone thinks sing a songwriter. Whereas we'd moved very much into being a band at this point, so Tom and the rest of us wanted it to be known as a band. Yeah. So we became Tom Lemmley and the Bravely liaison, and uh we then did we got invited to Maeda Vale to do a live session for Bibi Sindreducin, which was one of the best experiences of my life. Yeah. Being in in being obsessed with music production and studios and then going to a studio like that. Literally, I am not good at getting up in the morning, but we had to wake up at like half five, and we'd all stay around Tom's parents' house to so we could all leave at the right time. Tom's uh said this many times since that he's never seen me in such a good mood at that time in the morning, and we've been on so many tours together now. I like jumped out of bed like a kid at Christmas, yeah. I absolutely love the whole day. Um and yeah, so that was meant to be filmed for BBC Introducing, but BBC's cameraman wasn't available to come to Maydavel that day. No. So we had to also almost source our own uh videographer, and that's when someone mentioned Sam Lance, who was well up for it, came to Maedavel that day. That's the first time we'd really met him. And uh then after the session, we get back to Tom's parents' house and said, Oh, we've just recorded this single, casual, and we're thinking about doing a music video, and Sam, with his creative videographer, video producer mind, looks around this house like we could do a music video in this house, and we could do it like a one-shot where the camera follows you around the house, and we're like, that sounds awesome. We just said we just let him ride a bit. Tom's parents were gracious enough to let us use the like brand new house. They'd not even been in the house very long. No, and uh, and then I'm not sure whether they knew we were gonna be climbing on tables and like throwing ourselves around and probably best they didn't know beforehand. They went out for the day, and uh and we spent that entire day shooting this music video that like Sam had storyboarded out. We all had because it was a one-shot, the camera does follow us all around, and when the camera isn't on you, you're moving to your your next position around the house. So there was a lot to remember. There were many positions around the house. Did you ever trip over the cameras? Like luckily not. I mean, someone did trip over, and the one thing that Tom's parents said before they went out is like, look, we're happy for you to use the house for this music video. The chandelier in the living room is quite expensive. Please just avoid that at all costs. And because it was a one-take video, you know, it all had to go right in that one take. Yeah. There was no cutting the camera and starting again. So, like, if any mistakes happened during the take, well, you either start again or you just see it through. So I remember us doing about 17 takes of this one video, and I think we then went back to like take 11 because that was the best one. But right on like the final take or the penultimate take, Johnny the drummer runs into the chandelier and knocks a whole piece of it, which shatters on the floor. And we're all trying to keep a straight face because we know A, we can't ruin this take, but B, we're in trouble now. Because we've just smashed the chandelier. Anyway, so yeah, let's play play the video. So it's Tom Lumley and the liaison. Tom Brumba Tom Lumba Tom Lia. And the song is called Casual. And this is one of the earliest ones we did once we became Tom Lumley and the Brave Liaison. Believe in it as it's casual. Let's talk in about it, it's simple. You want something more than this? So that was casual then, uh, and it's an amazing one take, although you said you did it what 17 times for the one take. Yeah, so we did it about 17 times, and because the house is all hard floors, the tables, the kitchen counters are all like white marble sort of material, and we obviously couldn't have our shoes on because we were climbing on tables on kitchen sides. Yeah. By the end of the day, I remember my feet being in excruciating pain just from like jumping up and down, foot stomping on this hard ground the entire day. Oh, my feet hurt so much. But it's still one of we did so many like awesome videos with Sam because he's very creative and he he can he'll take the song, listen to the lyrics, and like almost storyboard it in his head, like he knows he knows what which shots where. He's he's so good at his job. But um, we so we've done so many videos over the years that we were together as a band, but that is still probably my favourite just because a the the the way it came together on the day, just the fun we had doing it, the story about the chandelier smashing. Probably because it was one of your first that you weren't like you weren't aware of all the things that could have gone wrong, or like all all the things that have to be thought about when you're doing all that stuff. So it was one of our first music videos, so we were all like gung-ho excited to make a music video. Yeah. All the pressure was on Sam, really, because like he he storyboarded it, it was his idea. So if it didn't work, it was on him. You were just like all having a great time, just like pretending to play this song in the house. So before we go on to looking at all your producer work now, which uh you know you've hinted at that that was the the bit where you you know you found your place. Um with with Tom and the Braveliaison, you did some amazing things, didn't you? Um and and you became Bravely liaison. Yeah. Um do you have any part well made of ale you just mentioned? And I think I saw you, I think it was probably two years ago, at the um alternative Great Escape. Yeah, we played really fun. We played the Alt Escape. I'm pretty sure we played the Great Escape at one point as well. We played so many festivals, we played Isla White twice, we played I mean that's pretty Yeah, that was awesome for for this feeling 'cause like we got in with this feeling and they were giving us some awesome gigs, mainly that and so we did Isla White twice for tr uh for this feeling. We also did Truck Festival once. They're all big festivals, aren't they? Yeah, yeah. And uh yeah, Camden Rocks, uh Bestival. We did so many cool festivals, but we also like um toured Europe and played like Germany. Um how did it all go down there? Oh Europe was like an out of this world experience because if you play a gig here, even if you're the headline band, if uh you're lucky to get like a crate of beer and a sausage roll. Out in Europe, like every venue was like fully catered. There was like three-course meal at every venue, all the snacks, all the drinks, like they take your rider and they go above and beyond to like give you everything. And we were just like a little support band, but we were the only support band on that tour supporting a band from Finland called Poets of the Fool, who were we didn't know at the time, we were clearly massive all the way all the way around Europe. So we we turn up for the first show in Berlin, and it's uh they were all like 800 to a thousand cap venues, and we we didn't know what to expect. This is our first show outside of the UK, and we're used to playing to pff, you know, 50 people in a 200 cap room, if we're lucky, if we're travelling it. I mean we we'd sell out our hometown shows and our London shows, but if we were going somewhere like Scotland, we'd play to about 30 people. So we'd driven all the way over to Berlin, and uh we were in that van for so long getting over there. And then we get to this first venue, and there's a spread from the catering. Like, I had meatballs the first meatballs and spaghetti on the first day. I was like, oh, I can get used to this. But we didn't know what to expect from the show. We knew it was an eight like eight hundred cap venue, and we're the only support van, so. We didn't know whether it's gonna be like the UK where nobody turns up for the first band on. We walk out on that stage and the venue is packed. Everyone's in there. Like, literally, there was no, you couldn't see any floor whatsoever, and we were like, Well, it's now our never boys. We've got to show them what we're made of. We walk out, and the show was amazing because like walking out, and this is a bigger venue than we were even playing back at home, and it's sold out, and everyone's in the room were like, This is awesome. But the German crowds were very different to like back home, we would get moshing, people would throw each other around, and like it all gets a bit rowdy. The German crowd, like they were intently listening, like everyone was stood there, like, oh really? Yeah, and so I almost thought it might be m more. We we finish a song, and everyone would go and then boom, hands down, they're waiting for the next song. So it was like a culture shock in a way, because we're like, we couldn't just be like, yeah, go on, yeah, yeah. Get the circle pit going. Because everyone was just like, good. But yeah, every show in the world. So then you didn't know what to expect at every place. But the German shows were a bit like that. Poland had a bit, you know, a bit more, they were throwing themselves around a bit more than that. Um I have such a bad memory. I don't remember all the places. Germany, Poland. Sign of a good rock star. I can't actually remember. Graz. Uh yeah, we were we played, I think, eight or nine shows in different different places. There was like two in Germany, two in Poland, in different places. Um but every one of them. Oh, it's it finished in Budapest. Budapest was the last show we played, and it was a almost a strange, like outdoorish kind of venue. It wasn't outdoor, but it was like this big in a way, like, you know, uh we have those greenhouses over here that people grow plants in and they're like circle, like like covered in plastic. Yeah, polytunnels. It was like that, but made out of metal. It was like a huge polytunnel made out of metal. So we're like, this venue isn't quite as fancy as the other ones, but they, the people of Budapest were well up for it. Again, sold out. We walked and we were really in our flow by this point. Like we didn't by the last the last show of the tour, we were just like, Oh, we're just gonna we know what we're doing now. Yeah, whether the crowd respond to us or not, we're gonna go and put on our show anyway. But Budapest were well up for it. Like, people have throwing each other around, cheering, those stuff. Was it really hot though in a metal? Yeah, it was gonna say it was very hot. Horrible. But it was such a great show. And like they'd even made the promoter, the catering at the venue, had made a cake, and this this lady makes a cake for all the bands that headline there, and the cake has the uh the tour poster on like top of it in in icing, so then that there was our like band name on this tour poster cake. Brilliant! Like the way we got looked after is just yeah, yeah, unbelievable. And like I can I can still remember like my mum my memory's terrible, but I remember like almost every piece of that tour just because I was just taking it all in and like loving it. And then you all decided for whatever reason that you you did you weren't gonna carry on, and and you did but you did the best farewell gig at the junction. Back at home junction, and also And how was that? Was it I mean I know it was I was there, yeah, it was it was very it was brilliant, it was a brilliant gig until you remembered that that was gonna be the the last one, and and I know that you lot were all getting quite emotional as well, as we as we were, and it must be a really hard thing in a way to to do that right. We're gonna go do the best show, but also we know that this isn't gonna be yeah. I was actually dreading it on the run-up to it, knowing it was the last one, because it almost in a way it didn't feel real. We'd been a band for eight years, I think, and we'd done all these amazing things. But you know when people say about the the lucky break, yeah. W we'd had, you know, we'd had things where it looked like it was about to happen, and not to hark back too much, but we got you know that Maeda Vale session and at the end of 2019, that EP um did really well, like all of the songs got Radio 1, and then at the start of 2020, um Hugh Stevens played casual from that Maeda Vale session on his show, and we were named as like one of the ones to watch for 2020, and then what happened was that we're gonna be able to do that. But that was a great year. That was the problem, wasn't it? I think that's the problem, the killer for a lot of things. Yeah, for yeah, for a lot of things. Like, we're we're not salty about it because we came back, we you know, we made up the best of it, we did online live sessions and stuff like that. We wrote, you know, our album during the COVID time as well, but we came back, did awesome things, but we felt like maybe that was the year it was gonna snowball and we we were gonna take that next level, and it didn't quite pan out the way we hoped. So, yeah, and then that in a way that lucky break never quite came. Yeah, and that's what it is sometimes, isn't it? It's it's the difference between when a band makes it or not makes it is because maybe someone was in the venue at the time that happened to be it, and and that's what it is. It's not to say that all the bands, you know, those bands that don't get that lucky break aren't absolutely brilliant and wouldn't have done really well. That's what I find very hard about music or and things like that, that everyone playing at at uh grassroots level is a lot of them are really really good. Yeah, and you've got you've got to remember why you got into it in the first place. Like if you get too wrapped up in the business of it or the oh, I've got to post TikToks every day, even though I hate it and I don't enjoy it. If you get too wrapped up and too bogged down with this the stuff you don't enjoy about it, you forget that you just you would you started playing a band because you love being in a band. Like so I was dreading it. We announced that we were splitting in October, we booked the show, the farewell show for March, and uh we then had like two or three months where we weren't practicing, and I was just like, Oh, I just really miss band practice, yeah. And I I've missed band practice since really. Like, I've done a since the band ended, I've done a few fill-in shows for other bands just because I wanted to get back in band practice, I wanted to like play guitar again. And uh I'm starting up something new with Tom now. We're in the very early stages of start up starting up a new band. But going back to that last show, I was dreading it up to the run-up, knowing that like it was the the last one and it was gonna be emotional. But on the day, and especially when we got out on stage, I didn't feel emotional or sad at all. Like the adrenaline kicked in, and I just almost had like the best show ever. Well, of course, especially if you hadn't been doing much practice, to suddenly be back and thinking this is the best thing again until you remember that you're not gonna be. We came back for the first band practice after like two or three months of after announcing that we were we were ending, and we came back for that first band practice. We like played a couple songs, we all looked at each other like, what are we doing? Oh we are good. But at that point, we'd already announced it's like with you could have put in brackets, not really. Didn't you see the little bit at the bottom that said not really? Just a just a hiatus movie. I mean, there's a lot of people that do farewell gigs and do farewell tours and then appear a few years later. But you you did hit on a point, Ned, saying why you're doing it, you're doing it because of the love of music, but that doesn't always pay for it. Yeah, unfortunately, and everything else. And that's so that's the other thing I find is it's very sad is that sometimes it's you having to find a job that you can balance your music with. Yeah, and that and that is and that's not always easy, and so sometimes those jobs aren't there, so you have to say, well, something has to go. I mean, I'm very lucky because obviously I work for myself, I do music production in the studio full-time. So if I need to book a book a day off or an evening off for a show, or even a week off, I can plan my schedule around that week. Whereas the other boys have full-time jobs and they're taking their holiday time. And there's only so much you can take to tour. Yeah. And then it gets a little bit tough on you know their partners who also want to go on holiday, but they've used all their holiday time to tour with the band. So like it became just a balancing act, and then taking the amount the right amount of time off for them so they can still live their lives whilst also doing the band, we just we just put so much into the band that it was almost like having another full-time job because we we were really hungry for it, we really wanted it. But then when you go over the edge of the cliff and you sort of think, Maybe you know that break isn't gonna come, that lucky break isn't gonna come, and we've we've put everything we can into this up to this point, maybe it's just time to call it. I mean, I would have carried on for the love of it, but you know. Well, it looks like maybe this turn something. Yeah, because I knew Tom would Tom would miss it. Well, that's it. I think sometimes you need to walk away. Exactly that, have the break, and then say, Oh, actually, I remember now what what it was something I really loved about it. Because if you fall out of love with the whole process, like you say, the TikToks and the social media and the oh, this is good for content, content, content. I mean, we didn't have that word content back at you know ten years ago. People weren't saying, Oh, have you got that's good for content, you know. Yeah, when the real rock stars are making it, yeah, yeah, exactly. So um we do need to move on a little bit now. I could talk about this for forever, and it's wonderful. But um you are producing now, and I I will ask you more about if future plans, but um you you've well we've just said about you've been doing your studio for just over ten years now. Yeah, eleven years. Eleven years. Now um if we go are there people th throughout that 10 years that you said you've carried on with the Rose Fair quite a lot, yeah. And are there other people that you've carried on with, and who are the newer ones that you've started to um produce? Unfortunately, because I've been I'm very fortunate and blessed to have been able to do this for the last 11 years, I've seen many good bands come and unfortunately go. Like, there's been many young bands, like the Rosa Faire as one of them, that have so much promise. Yeah. Among the citizens were another one where you just feel like this band have all the pieces to like really do it, but then because they're young, the next step is university and they go to different places. I've I've seen so many good bands, unfortunately, this band before they got their lucky break because you know life leads you in different directions. Uh so I've worked with so many people over those 11 years, not even just from the Cambridgeshire area, like people have travelled from Coventry, London, Birmingham, so how do you how do you find um producing people then that you haven't really known about before that get in contact? Is it word of mouth mainly? How do people hear about you? It's always been word of mouth really and social media, mainly Instagram, like especially in the early days. Like, I thought because I'd done music at school, I'd done m music at at university, I thought like I know enough musicians I know enough musicians if I go home after uni and build a studio, you know, build it and they will come. That's exactly the mentality I had. And then realized like, hmm, maybe people aren't gonna like drive from Bath or Bristol to come and record in the middle of nowhere. So you know, the first few years were a bit slow and it was mainly local acts, and but everyone I recorded most of the time, even even now, you know, I work with someone for the first time and they and they come back again and again. So it's a lot of re repeat business and also word of mouth, like they'll tell they'll that's a really good testament to what you do, because repeat business is always what a business wants to be. Absolutely. Because then they're like, Oh, if they did if they don't like it, they're not gonna come back. If they weren't happy, they're gonna look elsewhere. Um, and there's so much made of AI now, I'm not even gonna talk about it particularly, but on oh, I can just do it at home in my bedroom, and oh, oh this is self-produced, but you're not for one, is I always think you're not having that critical eye from somebody else that's listening to it that isn't you. It's like when you read your own things, you can't really tell what it's like. So I think it's really important to have someone that's separate and knows what they're doing. And there's a lot to be said for collaboration as well. Like, not all not every good idea in the studio is my idea either, but like somet something someone tries or plays just as just as an idea can spark another idea. Yeah. So then you know, you're throwing ideas around the studio and you come up with something that never would have happened if had that moment, that that little spark not happened, which triggered an idea in that person's mind, which then was formulated between everybody else, and then so would you say when people come to you and say, Right, I've got I want something produced, I'm I'm I want to start my EP, I've got it all here, I've got it, you know, either themselves uh playing something or they've got their band. Do you then sort of encourage them to do a bit of let's play all this and then let's just see where this goes a bit more? Yeah, I always try to get demos or rough recordings like live recording videos from band practice beforehand so that I get a taster of where the song and where the band is at, what sound they're aiming for. So like if they have references like oh we we like the drum sound of this band or uh we like the guitar tones of that band, and we're really in we're really inspired by these bands, then I can formulate that all into one melting pot, and like I know what they're going for. Yeah. So like I'll listen to this stuff so that that when it comes down to recording, I have a good idea of and also what their aspirations are, where they want the song to land. Like, if they want it to go on re go on radio, yeah, but the but their their main single, their lead single is six minutes long or five and a half minutes long. I'm like, guys, we're gonna have to cut this down because radio do not want a five-minute song. Correct. So uh that's sometimes a little bit of a tricky conversation. Like, but man, this is just the way it feels best. I'm like, look, let me just we'll record the full version if you want. And you have the radio, let me do the radio edit, yeah, and then they're like, Oh, actually, it works better like that anyway. So, yeah, there's always experimentation on the day, even if they have a set idea in their mind, like, let's just try this, and you just throw a few ideas around, they're like, Oh, actually, I really like the way that's going or the way that's sounding. Yeah, yeah. Now, um, let's move on to one of the other tracks that you've just quite recently recorded, and I think this is Melody, Melody Carles. Now, you've you've she's been recording a few things with you now, and but you say, I think this was the first one she recorded with you. We've recently done f a four-track EP, which she's released as singles. I think maybe she's putting out as an EP, but pre-dating that, the first one we did together was called Is It Just Me? And it was the first time me and Melody had worked together. Her dad Brian came to the studio as well. Mando Dad is what I call him, because he plays mandolin. I'll fix it, yeah. And uh, yeah, we just had a really great day. Like, me and Melody are quite similar as people, so we we get on really, really well. And uh, this is the first one we recorded together, and it got like BBC introduced in track of the week. So we were fussing with that, and it yeah, like because my bread and butter work, I would say, is like rock and indie, being folk and americana. I've done bits of it, like bands like Fred's House come to me. Um, but yeah, mandolin and cello. I've I've not recorded a much a cello since I was at university, so um, yeah, and that the song has Simon playing cello on it, Melody on acoustic guitar and vocals, and her dad on mandolin, and it just came together really nicely. And I I like recording different stuff as well, so it was nice that it's a challenge for you, as well. Yeah, it was a challenge, in a way, like any every time something new comes to the studio that I'd not done before, I know the uh the benchmark, I know how it needs to sound, yeah, even if I don't know the best way to get it. That's what I think other people don't well, some people may not always realise that like each instrument, the way you mic it up or whatever is gonna be completely different, isn't it? Yeah, and like you see you were laughing about one one mic for drums. I mean that's not gonna happen when you're recording them properly. Yeah, exactly. So like back when we started, like we only had one microphone and one track, but now I'm using like 16 microphones on a drum kit, and uh yeah, YouTube tutorials will only go so far, so it's like I had to record bagpipes when Lost Robins came and recorded their songs of me, and I'd never recorded bagpipes, so I I went on YouTube like how to record bagpipes. The first video I got was it said how to record bagpipes, don't. Yeah, I was gonna say about that. Right, well I'm on my own hit with this, then I'm just gonna make it up with so what you do as a as a recording engineer. I mean, you pick up experience recording different instruments as you go. So now because I've been doing it 11 years, you you get an idea of like the sound comes out of the instrument from this hole or whatever. Yeah. So you just pick the right microphone, the right type of microphone for that instrument, and you place it closer or further away. So you you can experiment and it's trial and error. Yeah. So yeah. So we're gonna play melody song now? Yeah, is it just me? It's been freezing in my mind for months. Surely by now we know we've got a ghost. We turn our back to the mirror, and the pain feels less hand deliver. Hand deliver, hand deliver. I swear there's someone controlling the rain right now. Is it just me? Nothing to say right now, and I don't know if my blame right now, boring can't stand. Tell me the thing, James. And I don't know how you sleep besides a bit of face. I don't know the right words to say when we all stand together and look the other way, look the other way, look the other way. That's weird so much. Oh, we're gonna be on the stage right now, I don't know what it's my day to me. Tell me the thing changed somehow. Change so now So that was Melody Cole's and Is It Just Me? And you'll be doing you've done some more, so I think I think she's been releasing them, hasn't she? A sing a sort of thing. Yeah, I think she's gonna release them as a we've we've done now. But she did message me not too long ago about booking in again, so there's more to come. She's always right, oh yeah. She's always right always posting her demos on on TikTok, so yeah, and I think she's back into the swing of it, yeah, yeah, which is which is nice to see. Yeah, yeah. She's very talented and got a beautiful voice. Yeah, yeah, yes. Who would you like to produce? If you could produce anyone, who would you like to produce? Like in the world. In the world. I mean, I could say dead or alive, but I think that's let's just go with people that are alive. If you had a chance to produce somebody, oh I'd be Paramour every day of the week. That's right. Like Paramour have always been one of my favourite bands. And I love the production and the mixes on all of their albums. Do you find when you're listening to music that you like you are listening thinking, hang on? Oh, yeah, like that. Yeah, then in a way I wish I could turn that off, especially when I'm listening to my own work, because if there's even one thing that I feel like, you know, a year down the line when I'm listening to that song, if there's one thing I know I could do better now, that will bug me. And the only time I was I was saying this to someone I worked with recently. Because she said she's gonna shoot a music video for the song we did together, and I was like, oh brilliant. Because when I'm watching a music video with a song that I've done, because I'm like immersed in the video, that's the almost the only time I'm listening to the song as if it was a song that I didn't produce mixed. Step out a bit. Yeah, I hear things in a different way because I'm watching the music video and I'm like immersed in the experience of the video, and I'm actually just hearing the song in a different way and not over-analysing it. Because when I listen to almost anything, I mean it might be slightly different if I really love a song and I've and the melody or the lyrics take me away from the product from listening to the production or the mix. But most of the time I'm like, oh, I really like this song because the snare drum sounds great, and then I'm just focused on the snare drum the entire time. Oh that that guitar tone is so good, or the vocal tone sounds so good. I wish in a way I could go back in time to where I was just listening to music before I knew I knew all this stuff, and I wasn't analysing. Yeah, but that's but I I do appreciate music in a in a different way now, especially because it's my job. So when I listen to one of my favourite bands, I'm not just listening to the production, it's like I can appreciate it in a different way. But does that do you think that then makes you think, oh, I like I can see now why I like this music because of the way they've done this, that, and the other. Yeah. Uh but then it can also give you an appreciation of music that you wouldn't say was your genre, or you know, oh, I'm not really into that type of music, but you can see the production on it, so you can enjoy it in a different way. So in a way, that's because that's one of the reasons I got into country music because my uncle, who started on keyboard, he's always loved country music, and I growing up wasn't really into it. I thought it was, you know, the stories are sometimes a little bit like they've all got heartbreak, yeah, they've all got a horse, yeah, they're all sad on their horse, and they've all got a truck, blah de blah de blah. I was never really into it. But it doesn't really work, it didn't I mean the original country didn't really work for this country. Yeah, true. Because we haven't got the vast spaces and the all that. But my uncle always loved it, and then around going when I got when I passed my driving test and I got my first car, and I had a CD player, and I was just looking for like CDs to listen to. He's like, look, I'm gonna give you a few country albums, listen to them in your car and see what you think. And this was sort of around the time I was first getting into production and recording my demos at home, and that's when I realised country music in America, well like, especially popular country music, it's almost the pop music over here. It's like the pop music here is produced so shiny and so nice and perfect. That's what a commercial country music is like, especially in in when it's in Nashville. Like they've got the best players, they've got the best studios, they've got the best instruments, they've got the best mixers, best engineers, and it's just like almost in a way as good production and engineering as it can possibly be. So that got me into country, and now I still love country music. Yeah, I got into country when I was like in my twenties because again, it's and it's people around you. There was people I knew from one of my first jobs, and the people they were in a band, and it was like a new country band, and then there was all the new country what they call new country. I mean, this was 30 years ago. Uh Steve Earl and Nancy Griffith and all these people which were counted then as new country. Yeah. And I absolutely loved it then, and then that kind of moved me into folk, really, and and and but yeah, seeing and the c the revival of country revival, whatever you like to call it, it's having its moment in the pop world at the moment. Definitely. And I think it's funny because it's been around like that, and all the country people and and people into country americana, they'll tell you that anyway, that you know Yeah, it's it's not till Beyonce and Lady Garga bring country into the into the mainstream idea. Everyone's like, oh love country now. I'm like, yeah, well, you are all the same people that are taking the mick out of me during second year of university when I blast it out of my speakers. Yeah, and you can see why country people that do like country get annoyed because it's like, oh you can't just suddenly start. Jump on the bandwagon. But equally, it's great, like all these things, it's it's a it's you know, some of it is good because it is bringing it into mainstream, but then sometimes you lose some of the authenticity. But at least, you know, it getting bigger over here means some of the country stuff and that I know there's always been country to country, but I mean that's but that's getting massive, right? Yeah, yeah, it's getting massive over over here. It just means more of the big country artists from America come over here and tour over here because it gets bigger and bigger over here, which is good to see. Now, if you could tell something to your younger self, you kind of just said then you'd like to go back. Like that's that's not really the same question, I guess. Is that what would you tell yourself as that kind of say the 14-year-old boy that was in the first bands and you were, you know, playing in the village halls? Have you got any advice or is there anything, or even for young artists that are starting up now? Um I would say remember, remember why you're doing it, and don't get don't sweat the small stuff too much. Like, there's always gonna be parts of it that you don't really enjoy that you have to do. Whether like you love playing the shows but you don't really like band practice or you don't really like being in the studio. There's parts of it, you know, if you want to be in a successful band or you want to be a successful artist, there's always gonna be parts of it that you don't really enjoy. But just remember why you get into it in the first place and be present enough to really enjoy those elements that you you do enjoy. So then when you are doing the smaller stuff, you know it's all in support of the grand scheme of things and the bigger picture of like you if you stick at it and you make the best of all the bits that you don't really enjoy, it's all working towards doing the thing that you love, you know, hopefully full time in the future. Yeah, yeah. And when you think of any job, there's always going to be the bits you don't like. Exactly. But you forget that when you're doing things like music and you think, oh well it's not fair because you're stuffed to all this rubbish. There's a lot of jobs that are mainly the rubbish and not the good stuff. So I I remind myself that all the time. Like if there's you know, I'm editing something and it becomes annoying, or like one piece of software, like one plug-in isn't working the way I want it to do, or my computer for some reason is having a slow day and just malfunctioning all the time. I'm like, why is this happening to me? Yeah. And I'm getting really annoyed with some, you know, object. Yeah, yeah. I just remind myself, like, this is actually my dream job. Like, I'm doing something that if I didn't have to make a living and have to, you know, earn money to pay bills, I would do this for free. Because don't tell them that. I didn't say that. I didn't say that, but yeah, it it was it's been my passion for you know at least half of my life. And you sometimes you just have to and I d I do this all the time, like probably at least ever once a week or once every other week, I just sit in the studio and like this is my dream. Yeah, it's good, isn't it? I think it's good to reflect sometimes and look back and think, hang on, look at this. Yeah, like that the hard work or the sleepless nights, because you know, it wasn't, especially in the early days, you know, I I said build it and they will come. Yeah. That they didn't, you know, for a for a two or three, maybe four years. I think it took me five or six years to become full-time of it. And on the same thing. But it's like holding your nerve as well. It's like, come on, have the faith and hold your nerve. Every time I've shook, my mum has been like, Look, you're you know, you're working towards your dream, and like maybe you don't, you know, earn the same as your friends that have got you know other full-time jobs, or maybe you're not doing this or doing that, like your friends are doing, but you're building something and you're working towards your dream. And you're loving what you're doing. Exactly. Um and now when I work with basically everyone says, Oh, I'd trade I'd trade my job in for your job any day of the week, and I'm like, I wonder, maybe you wouldn't if you knew what it took to get here, but at the same time, yeah, I do have a lot of people's dream jobs, and they'd love to do something creative like I'm doing every day. So I am very lucky, very. And you have said, I've when I've spoken to you before, you said how influential, you know, or how much how grateful you are to your like your uncle and to your parents and your grandparents as well. Like my grandparents let me turn their entire garage into a studio. But it started out in just like the games room that behind the garage that started out as the studio, and I split that room into two. That this this this was the room that like my dad and his brothers would play dance in or whatever when they were growing up, and then it turned into like the junk storage room that I would have band practice in with my six-form bands. So it had a drum kit in and just loads of rubbish from everyone's houses. But we'd have band practice in there, and then yeah, I graduated graduated uni and moved home and knew I was gonna turn that room into the studio, and like my grandparents let me have that room, and then a couple years later, I was like, I need I need a bit more space so I can do like full band stuff and get everyone in the same room and like do live sessions and play together. And my grandma was just like, whatever you want, Jake, you just do it, even if it meant like she was the only person that parked her car in the garage, and also her sit on lawnmowers in the garage. But she was like, Yeah, we'll find somewhere else for that. You you have the garage if you need it. So, like, my grandparents and my parents, they've always supported me. That's wonderful, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I wouldn't be doing it now if if I hadn't had that support. Now I'm gonna ask you one final question, then we'll have your last song to finish up. It's been absolutely brilliant speaking to you. I'm not saying that now, and I've learned so much, but also it's so nice just to have the room and the space just to do this. So thank you for indulging me. It's been nice to reflect and also like remember these things because I've got a terrible memory, like I've said multiple times. So like go even going back to sort of like prep for this in a way, like trying to remember what I've done. So which artists do you that around at the moment do you admire? Are there any? I mean, we could just go even local if you don't want to, or or sort of further afield if you wanted. And who would you rec would is there anyone that you think if we might not have heard um is worth checking out? There's a young band that I actually got put in contact with through Tim called Marah. Oh yes, I think they're like 15, 16, just literally just doing their GCSEs. And uh when I get a band that young in studio, I don't really know what level they're gonna be at, and I I'm not sure whether it's gonna be successful really or not. Yeah. But they they proved me any doubts I had getting into that first session, they proved me so wrong. Like they are writing songs well beyond their years. Yeah, I have interviewed them before. There's so much promise in that band, it's actually crazy. Because like they've shown me other songs that they're they're sitting on, and it's almost like, guys, I we need to get into the studio for longer, we need to record all these songs. They are writing like like I say, songs well beyond their ears. Because that's funny you say that, because I think I interviewed them l this time last about a year ago, and I I don't know whether they were doing their GCSEs or the the year below, so they might be doing them this year, but I remember interviewing them and and then coming on very much as a mum because they were like, Oh, I don't really want I don't think our GCSEs are important, really. It's this music, and I was like, get your GCSEs, then do your music. Just gonna say it, just try and get your exams as well as doing your music. But it is hard because at that age it is a it's a funny age to be thinking these are really good and we want to move this now. But I think also, which is good for them, like it was for me, that I think they've got very supportive parents, and I think the parents realise that there's a lot of promise in that band as well. I think I think it might be Aaron who's the main songwriter, and he is he's a talented guy, so I just hope you know I hope they stick at it and see where it goes, but I hope I really hope he follows his music. Or we'll watch that, we'll yeah, we'll see that be quick. And another another band with a lot of promise is the last band I'm gonna. Yes, that's what I was gonna say. We're gonna finish with the the band that you said this has only just come out, this song. Yeah. Uh and so you've just finished it and it's just gone out. We're recording this on the 5th of May. It came out yesterday, on the 4th of May, and uh the band's called Hollow Waves, and they're a mishmash of a couple of other bands which unfortunately disbanded, but um they played a Fiverr for their very first gig, probably five or six weeks ago now. And it it rem I was at the gig and it reminded me of the glory days of the fiver back when I used to play it when I was younger, because it was like four or five hundred people in there, and the energy was crazy. Like, they hadn't even released a song at this point, they hadn't released any of their songs, they just made like TikTok videos and Instagram reels, and there was so many people in the crowd singing the songs along to them, they hadn't released any of them, and I was like, This is mad, like and I just knew I knew from when as soon as we started recording that you know there's there's a lot of promise for them, so again I hope they stick it out and see where it goes. But uh yeah, there was even like 30 or 40 people in the crowd that who'd sat down on the junction floor and started rowing, like they were just like rowing in unison. I think because the band's called Hollow Waves, they always start I was just like, this is the best fire I've ever been to. Yeah, yeah. So I want to thank you very much for taking the time to talk to me today. Thank you so much for having me. It's been absolutely brilliant. Now, Jake, uh just introduced the last band again, so it's gonna be our last single for the day, Hollow Waves. And the song is called Face in the Mirror. Thank you very much. Cheers, you can't do it. Don't want you to go nowhere. Don't want you to get up out there.