NMG Presents: Behind The Music - Luke James Williams

Alex Elbro hosts the second episode in a new series of in-depth interviews with some of the East Anglian music scenes most popular figures. In episode 2, Luke James Williams talks to Alex about his music career, his highlights to date and stories from his recent UK tour.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:03

NMG presents behind the music with Alex Elbro.

SPEAKER_00 0:10

Hello, I'm Alex Elbro, and welcome to Behind the Music. In this series, we look beyond the music to discover the life, the passion, and the stories behind the artists we love. I'll be sitting down with musicians to explore what shapes them, what inspires them, and how their personal story is woven into their music. And today I'm talking to Luke James Williams. Now Luke is an indie folk singer-songwriter and released his EP Grove in November 2018. And he subsequently released two albums to critical acclaim. His latest album, Lime's Hotel, was released in April, and Luke has kindly agreed to come in mid-tour to talk about uh what's going on in his life. Great to see you, Luke. Yeah, you too, Alex. Now, Luke, before we start talking about kind of what's been going on in the last couple of years, can we go right back? And um what were you were your first thoughts of music? When were you first aware of music being around you? Were your family very musical or anything like that?

SPEAKER_03 1:13

Yeah, it's always music in the house like as a kid. Um my parents didn't play, uh, but my dad used to sing a lot. Um so and he had a pretty he's got a pretty decent voice actually. Um but yeah, always sort of whenever we're in the car, the car was always well stocked with cassette tapes, and and so especially sort of yeah, on any journey in fact, there was always music on in wherever we were going, but then especially sort of fond memories of sort of family holidays and stuff like that, and um sort of if you know if dad got sort of a new CD, we'd sort of it'd be my job to put it onto a cassette so we could play it in the car and stuff like that. And so yeah, just always music around and um and yeah, my parents sort of watched a lot of like live concert VHSs and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_00 1:53

Did they go to to gigs?

SPEAKER_03 1:54

Yeah, they used to go to gigs as well. Did they take you along? Yeah, take me to gigs as well. So kind of always had that, and then I think when I showed sort of more than probably like a casual interest in in just listening, they kind of said, you know, would you like I think I had like a little toy piano and stuff like that, and then they sort of said, Oh, would you like a guitar? And and then eventually that progressed to sort of having some lessons. Um and so I started out learning um like nylon string classical guitar and did it did a few grades.

SPEAKER_00 2:22

Did you do that at school or did you do that outside of school?

SPEAKER_03 2:24

No, outside of school, yeah. Yeah, so I used to I had a tutor in Hitchin and he used to run sort of like uh group lessons kind of thing. I went with a friend of mine, yeah. Um and I did that for quite a few years and sort of did a few grades um and and then I started to learn drums actually as well. So um again I was really fortunate that I sort of once I sort of uh expressed an interest in learning a second instrument, then um my parents sort of threw friends with a friend knew a tutor, and so I started on that. Um so were you doing both then? Yeah, yeah, I was doing both for a while, and but I stopped the kind of formal grades in guitar. What basically once I got to my upper school and friends and formed a band, then kind of that's when I wanted to sort of I started playing electric guitar and we started gigging and things like that.

SPEAKER_00 3:08

And I guess also that gives you a really good grounding in where the notes are, what the chords are and and that sort of side of it, before then you can just take it off to do what you want with it.

SPEAKER_03 3:18

100%. And the weird thing is, is like so I still play a nylon string guitar, so and that's kind of the instrument that I've always kind of tended to write my songs on. So in a funny way, it's kind of gone full circle really.

SPEAKER_00 3:32

I guess as you get older you you kind of listen for a sound more than what the thing, you know, oh well I want to play electric guitar because I'm in a band, so therefore, you know, it it it'll be different for different moods, won't it, or whatever you think. Definitely. So um what who were your influences or who were your parents playing that you enjoyed? Can you remember even yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:54

So I mean I love I mean they they played a lot of the Beatles and like Buddy Holly and Roy Orbison and the Everly brothers, but a massive one for for us and our kind of family was Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers. Okay. Um so yeah, that's kind of like our family band, kind of in a way. Yeah, Tom Petty is an artist that's yeah, so so means so much to us, like as a family, and as I say, accompanied us on many long road trips and holidays and stuff like that. And um, yeah, I got to see them sort of um well, you know, so obviously sad sadly, Tom Petty died sort of quite a few years ago now, but I managed to see him a few times with my mum and dad, um, which is really special. I was gonna say that must be amazing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Some really fond memories of gigs.

SPEAKER_00 4:34

And was that a festivals or were that a gigs or a bit bad?

SPEAKER_03 4:36

Yes, no, we didn't see him, so we saw him the very first time was at Shepsbusch Empire, which is one of my favourite venues. That was um, yeah, so that was like one of their um gigs as part of their the Echo album tour, and then we saw them a few years later at the Royal Albert Hall again, which was one of their shows, and then we saw them the third time. Again, it was a Tom Petty gig, but it was part of the Hyde Park calling, so it was kind of like a day-long festival, but which they were the headliners.

SPEAKER_00 5:00

Yeah, I mean, those things you get really good bands.

SPEAKER_03 5:03

Oh, it was incredible, yeah, yeah. We I mean we discovered, I mean, it was it was Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers headlining, Stevie Nick supported. So, of course, then Stevie went on because they do a few duets together, yeah. So she got up with Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers, but yeah, we discovered an amazing band that day called The Head and the Heart, who we'd not known before, and they're fantastic, and so yeah, that yeah, and we'll we all love them now, so yeah, it's yeah, nice.

SPEAKER_00 5:25

Brilliant, it's excellent. So you're saying then that you you went from nylon string classical, then you were stuck playing electric guitar, and then you but did you start learning drums though while you were still doing the classical guitar?

SPEAKER_03 5:37

Uh no, I think it was probably around the sort of same time when I stopped sort of playing, and I'd say I stopped playing classical guitar, I always still had my classical guitar at home, it's just I stopped doing the sort of formal lessons and grades and things. Um and as I say, I kind of generally at home, I think probably my nylon string guitar was probably still the one I would pick up and knock about on, kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00 5:57

Um so when did you did you at that point prefer one of them? You said you start you were in a band in your upper school. So what age was that, about 15?

SPEAKER_03 6:06

So I went to my yeah, I met kind of the guys that I was in ended up in a band with, um that would have been about 14 years old, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:11

Yeah. And that was on electric guitar.

SPEAKER_03 6:14

Yeah, yeah, we yeah, Jordan.

SPEAKER_00 6:15

And what was the name of the band then? Can you remember?

SPEAKER_03 6:17

Well the but the the band was originally called Insomnia, uh-huh. And we did like we sort of went through to sort of our kind of when we were doing our A levels, I think. And then the band then when we were sort of taking things a bit more seriously, the drum drummer left and and we sort of went through a few changes musically and then we became a band called The October Game, um, which yeah was kind of our band and we released three albums together, and okay. That was kind of that really takes right through to when I started releasing my own music.

SPEAKER_00 6:45

So So was there a moment when you thought I don't want I want to take this mine or was it just like you're you want to go in a different direction music?

SPEAKER_03 6:54

Yeah, no, no, we basically because we started um yeah, and we s like as Insomnia we were kind of teenagers and then kind of the October game was kind of like late teens to kind of basically to our late 20s, and basically by the time um we've kind of grown in a couple of members, so we ended up as a five piece, but five guys all in their late twenties, all starting to go off and do move elsewhere and things like that. It just became like a bit of a logistical nightmare, really. Like to I sort of set seemed to find more time kind of managing the band logistically than actually creating.

SPEAKER_04 7:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:28

Um, and I think yeah, it just there were a few things, but I I think it you know, we were and we were all it all was so amicable, and we're still the best of friends. I mean, Nick even we still worked together and he produced like and mixed the latest album, he produced and recorded the my first album and he helped me mix my first VP. We still worked together all the time, and and we've done the odd like gig where we've got back together to celebrate the anniversary of an album and stuff like that. But it just really felt like the over the course of the three albums it had kind of run its natural course, and at that point I really thought I was gonna take a step back from music, um, which is what always I think quite what often happens is um yeah, I just thought I kind of fancy a bit of a change, it coincided because the band was kind of doing okay, so none of us actually decided to go to university. So I was doing a a degree with the open university whilst uh whilst working.

SPEAKER_00 8:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 8:20

Um, and I did that, but basically once I'd finished my degree with the OU, I decided I wanted to go sort of travel, I did it in languages um and sort of focusing on Spanish.

SPEAKER_00 8:28

Because that's something I saw recently. There was a one factor, whatever it was, you don't know about you, and it was like you speak Spanish.

SPEAKER_03 8:35

Yeah, yeah. Which uh is very cool.

SPEAKER_00 8:37

Yeah, no, so I yeah So was it more than one language?

SPEAKER_03 8:40

Uh well essentially so it was Spanish, and I did all the Spanish modules with the OU, but then basically I worked out that if I did a few English language modules, then it would turn into a degree. I didn't I didn't actually set out to do a degree, I just set out to learn Spanish and to do all the modules through the open university. But by the time I'd done that, I was kind of like, well, and especially because I sort of saw the end of the band and I didn't kind of know what to do, and I thought, well, it will be handy, and it was super interesting as well. I loved the English modules, and and so and so yeah, I just I completed that. But once I'd actually sort of done finished my degree, um I kind of wanted to go away, and it kind of coincided with the with the release of our third album and stuff like that. And we knew we weren't gonna gig much because we sort of knew it was sort of the final the end of the band. Um so I went away. I travelled and worked in Spain um for a while. Which is also really good for your Spanish, isn't it? I mean you learn as much as well. And I mean, yeah, I mean, yeah, I would say, I mean, I I love languages, and I would I would encourage anyone if they've got an interest in a particular culture or a particular language to to throw themselves into trying to learn it. You can do an awful lot of learning from books and from online and things like that, but there's no substitute for being there, like absolutely not. So no, it was really great. I really felt I mean I felt confident in Spanish because I did a lot of outside um like I had like a Skype friend who was learning English. So we'd we'd meet every week and um online. Um and I used to, you know, watch tons of sort of Spanish and South American films, and I used to listen to the radio and stuff like that. So I did, I feel I went above and beyond my studies, yeah, but it wasn't really until I spent a good chunk of time both in Spain and South America that I really felt my level kind of picked up.

SPEAKER_00 10:19

And so you were saying then that you felt it was like the natural end to the band, and then you like, oh I'm gonna take a step back from music. Yeah. But is that because you've you were thinking, oh, the band's finished, then so you probably didn't think then of doing a different thing, like, oh I'm gonna do alright, then I that's not the direction I want to do, but I want to do something else. You didn't think, well, actually I'm gonna just start writing stuff myself.

SPEAKER_03 10:43

It was just purely like when I went away, when I went to Spain, I just took my guitar with me. Yeah. And all of a sudden I just found myself just natural and it was so it actually was really freeing, not writing for anything in particular. And I think that's where that freedom I think really turned into a really creative time. I mean, I think travel is obviously an extremely inspiring thing, just being in a different situation, being away from home. I think there was it just really gave me a lot of and I had a lot of spare time, and obviously I wasn't with my family or friends, so I did have I did have quite a lot of spare time, so I just found myself just picking up my guitar more and more, and I just found these songs coming out, but again, really with no thought of what to do with them. I was just writing them and I didn't know whether I was maybe would form another band or whatever, really.

SPEAKER_04 11:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:30

And it was really when I got ho when we kind of came home after our travels, um, and I'd kind of amassed like a fair few songs, and a good friend of mine, um Steve Smither, um uh who's really sadly not no longer with us, um, he was the former performance director at Rhythms of the World Festival in Hitchin, which was like a big festival. Used to it was like the largest, um, like one of the largest like world music festivals. Um and wh whilst it was still in the town centre, I think it was the largest world music festival, free world music festival. But he was the performance director for a few years and he he was doing a gig for Oxjam, oh yeah, like as a fun fundraiser before the event, and he said to me, like, I'd love for you to come and play a solo gig, and that just really gave me the nudge I needed. Yeah, as I say, I'd never had any thoughts of of playing my own stuff, but when he invited me, I just thought, well, I've got these songs, and maybe you know, it doesn't have to be anything, but I'll go and do it and see and see how it feels, and and and loved it.

SPEAKER_00 12:29

And were you writing songs before, like when you were in the bands before? Yeah, you writing songs before. Were you doing those collaboratives? Oh, you were capable of it.

SPEAKER_03 12:36

Yeah, I'd say that Prince principal songwriter, myself and Nick, like we used to like uh we I was really proud of a lot of the guitar parts we wrote. We used to play guitar together, and um, whilst principally I guess I was the rhythm guitar player and he was the lead guitar, a lot of our parts sort of were quite intricate and sort of like interweaved, and so yeah, Nick and I were the main songwriters, but the other guys got heavily involved more so than other times in other songs, and especially as we actually got through to the third album, it actually had become quite a lot more collaborative with all of us chipping in ideas.

SPEAKER_00 13:06

So when you were asked to do this solo, did was your first thought I've got to have to use some of the other as well to make up a whole solo set.

SPEAKER_03 13:18

Well, a little bit as I I don't think I actually ended up I think I only ever I think I actually only played one song from the band.

SPEAKER_00 13:25

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 13:26

Um I think I had I had because I had enough songs, yeah, but I think it was that because uh everyone had only ever known me do like the October game and it was in hit the gig was in hitching, yeah, and so I felt right to just do one. Yeah. But I definitely didn't want it to become a oh Luke's just playing the songs without the band kind of thing. Because we were, as I say, especially especially the guitar parts with Nick, like the way that the two guitars kind of intertwined and worked together, like I didn't you know I've not I've not done it an awful lot.

SPEAKER_00 13:56

Yeah, I think it's hard for especially going the other way, sing a songwriters that then have a band and then you know produce an album for a band, and then then you go to gig it and you're like, oh hang on a minute, now am I gonna get the band back for the rec rec for the live gigs, or do I have to do an acoustic version, which is can be fantastic in its own right, but not always what people have listened to if they don't know you very well. So I think that and I'll just going back to um languages and doing English modules and travelling, that surely must uh feed into your writing and being able to write things creatively.

SPEAKER_03 14:34

Yeah, definitely. I mean I've always I've always loved writing lyrics um and I you know it's it's a part of the of songwriting which I really enjoy. Like I really l enjoy playing around with words and and and phrases and and and yeah, I th I think just when you I think as I say, I think travel and I think languages especially, I think, I think they're just great sources of inspiration and it gets you to think about words and language in a different way as well. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:01

I think it's probably about time to have your uh first video, sure. Which now these are all gonna be taken from the new album, yeah, and they've all got a really cinematic style that maybe you want to talk about a little bit now, but we can talk about a bit later. Sure. Um so first one we're gonna do is Seeds, which was the first single from the album. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:20

So do you want to Yeah, so it was um Seeds, yeah, was the first single that I um shared from from the album, and I think it was a it was a great one really to share first because it kind of does encapsulate some of the sort of overarching lyrical themes on the album about sort of the cycles of life and death and kind of taking comfort in nature and kind of the hope that on some level at some time that you'll be reunited on whatever way with with the people that are closest to you. Um and and yeah, I I I sort of ended up meeting up with uh with an old school friend, um, yeah, we went to school many years sort of go ago um together, and um fantastic um photographer, and and and he was kind of on the lookout for his name's Matthew Oton, um, and he'd been doing a lot of kind of photography, and he he's involved in quite a lot of like technical roles on sort of film sets and things like that, and it just so happened that he was really itching to do something a bit more creative and something sort of that he was in charge of, and so it just it ended up it we were only actually meant to end up doing that. I kind of really only had visions of doing that first track, yeah. Just to launch like the teaser kind of thing, yeah. But then he was just like sort of yeah, Matt said to me, Oh, do you can I can I do the other videos? And I was like, Absolutely, like I love I love the way it like it was so weird, even on that first. I don't think we'd seen each other in 10 years, and it was literally just like seeing an old friend, like the moment, and it we I mean, I don't know why I've done this to myself, both the album shoot and the video shoot we were shooting at sunrise, so like it's been some early starts, but um, but literally the whole day through the shoot, like every time Matt would be like, Oh, I really like this, and he'd show me it in the viewphone, and I'd be like, Yeah, perfect. Like, we're just so on the same, yeah, so much on the same wavelength. So it's a joy to work with.

SPEAKER_00 17:03

Yeah, yeah. And so this is gonna we're gonna play that now.

SPEAKER_01 17:06

This is seeds amongst the seeds on the ground. We wait for me. Something of all things of me. Amongst the seeds. Underground. We wait for me.

SPEAKER_00 21:12

So that was seeds, and that's taken from the Limes Hotel, or Limes Hotel, sorry, I should say, which we'll go on to talk about a bit more a bit later. Um as that's the current album that you are talk touring at the moment, aren't you? Um and but I want to get back to um what was the was there a pivotal time, or what was it when you'd come back and you were asked to do this solo that you were like, okay, I've travelled now, I've done this, I've got to like think about what's what my next phase is. That was that when you thought I'm gonna have a life in music?

SPEAKER_03 21:45

Yeah, I mean it was it's funny. Uh I think as I say, I I really fully expected to have a step back. Yeah. And it's funny, I I think when I went away and I wrote all those songs, I was just like, This isn't something I can leave behind. Well, I think whatever I do in my life, whether I take it more seriously or whether it's just a hobby, I think that was the moment at which and it was while I was away that I just I think at that point I think I never realised how much of a good friend music was kind of thing. I think I wouldn't say I took it for granted, but it definitely was the point at which I kind of thought, well, this is always gonna be with me. Um and then yeah, I guess it really was the gig um the the Ox Jam gig when I did my first sort of getting up there on stage on my own for the first time and it being absolutely terrifying.

SPEAKER_00 22:32

But it's very different, isn't it? Being on your own up there from the band and also showing your own music, not up there doing covers.

SPEAKER_03 22:38

And also I was in front of people that had seen me with the band as well, and it was kind of one of those things you you kind of get in your own head, you just think, oh gosh, are people just gonna think well it's not as good as with you know when it's just a band. I was I was I was so blown away, people were so encouraging. Um and so I think yeah, at that point I just knew, well, yeah, let's just do a you know, let's like think about this kind of batch of songs, and and obviously by that time I had played some of them live kind of thing, and then I just got started to think about recording my first point, they were just there, yeah. They were just yeah, I mean I probably had some like voice note demos of them and stuff like that, but that's all there all there was really, yeah. Um, and actually the first thing I did was yeah, I I decided just to record one song on its own, uh which was a song song which didn't end up on Drove actually. A song a song called Jenny Wright's Letters, which was one of the first ones that I and I played that at that gig. So I think I just did it really as just a test. I I I wanted to test like my own little home setup, and so I did everything myself, or I sort of obviously wrote and recorded it, but I ended up mixing and mastering it as well, and just put it out on my bandcamp page just so I had something there, and then I think at that point, I think again I was lucky to have a lot of encouragement. Um and then I just yeah, I thought, well, yeah, this this setup works, and so I ended up recording the first EP.

SPEAKER_00 23:54

I'm guessing also because you you'd already done three albums with the band, so you knew the process and you knew what it took to create that, so you weren't like, oh, I'm just gonna get up and start like recording stuff of my own, you know.

SPEAKER_03 24:06

No, and I'd done yeah, I'd always had like a home setup, like because I did um when I did my A levels, I did music technology A levels, so I kind of have I I'm definitely not very technical, um, but I I know the the basics enough to record and and I know what I like as well, so it's like in terms of producing in terms of producing it was was I had a clear idea of what I wanted it to sound like. Um and then yeah, so I just bought I think I bought ended up like upgrading the valve in my in my mic, and I bought like a new preamp and stuff like that. So I made like a couple of little sort of amendments to my sort of upgrades, I guess, to my rig. Um and then I recorded it all, and then at that point I said to my friend Nick from the October game, who's a brilliant producer, um, I said, Oh, like this is kind of where I am at with it. And he was just like, Well, I think it sounds great, but if you want, come into the studio with all the stems and we'll just try and push things just a bit further.

SPEAKER_00 24:59

We'll do what's Nick's surname?

SPEAKER_03 25:00

Nick Kozuk.

SPEAKER_00 25:01

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:02

So um so he he just really helped me just take what was there, but then we just experimented a bit in the studio, we sort of re-amped some of the guitars and changed like some of the guitar tones, and he kind of helped me um with yeah, some sort of like bells and whistles production-wise and things like that.

SPEAKER_00 25:19

Were you putting playing drums on that as well?

SPEAKER_03 25:21

Or was this just percussion, yeah. There's some percussion on there, yeah. Yeah, and to be honest with you, like because I I do play drums, but I've never I don't think on any of the songs I've ever played like drum kit, yeah. It's always been like layering it up, so I'd sort of like lay down like a bass drum part, and then it'll be some shakers and some tambourines and things like that.

SPEAKER_02 25:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:39

Um, so yeah, we we sort of built that up in in that way. Um, and then yeah, so Nick helped me sort of like do some additional production on on Drove and mixed it as well. Um, and then yeah, we had someone else master it, and then that was kind of it, the first DP ready to go.

SPEAKER_00 25:54

Yeah, and that was Drove in 2018. It came out.

SPEAKER_03 25:56

Yes, yeah, so sort of end of 2018.

SPEAKER_00 25:59

Did you start gigging that then, or were you already gigging gigging it then?

SPEAKER_03 26:02

I was I was gigging lit little bits and bobs before then, but that's when it really started. Um that's when I first saw you around that time.

SPEAKER_00 26:10

You were supporting Megson, who were also another fantastic band.

SPEAKER_03 26:14

Yeah, uh yeah, amazing, amazing duo, and yeah, and and I feel very fortunate that Stu's become sort of a good mate as well off the back of that kind of thing. Yeah, it was the start, and I I remember it clearly. So I was doing a little um joint tour um with my friend Andy Moore, who goes under the name Atlam Schema, so that was the like a little first tour in support of Drove. And I remember we were at I think it was the maybe it was the second to last date, and I was sat in my car outside a pub. We'd had a venue cancel on us in in in Lemmington. We ended up having to move it to this pub like before beforehand, and there was nowhere like just to have a few minutes before the gig sort of thing. So I remember just going to be.

SPEAKER_00 26:53

That's the that's the beauty of early gigs, isn't it? No green room, no no like.

SPEAKER_03 26:57

I remember sitting in my car and like having a few moments to myself, and I remember the message came through like I think on my Facebook Messenger or something like that, from Stu saying, Would you like to support us at the J2? And I mean at that time that was just like wow, like I'd heard of Megsen, but um uh yeah, never had the opportunity to either sort of see them play or meet them or anything like that, and yeah, it just really kicked off the start. I mean that gig itself was a massive lift for me, especially locally getting to play to a sold-out J2 room, like to the amount of like people locally around in and around Cambridge. So that was a massive, yeah, just a massive.

SPEAKER_00 27:34

Well I remember because we we often when we you know we knew Megson and we were going to see Megson, but I will always when I can get to uh uh to see a support, and this is why this the beauty of a seeing a support, you know, the people that are um you're going to see generally picked the people, and so they they're never going to pick someone that they don't like, yeah. And you often get to to see such fantastic support, so anyone out there always try and go and see a support, and you know, and it's so lovely for the person to go and like not see all the chairs empty and people just wandering in three quarters of the way through because they they can't be bothered and they only want to see the main act. It's value for money as well, yeah. But I remember being absolutely blown away by your music. We were like both me and my husband, we were just like wow, you know, because I don't think we'd heard anything, it was you did your way with words, I feel is is like second to none, and the way you craft your songs to to really give you the old I mean you know, there's always tears, or but then there's also a lot of uplift as well. So did you find did you get that back from the audience at the time?

SPEAKER_03 28:46

Yeah, I mean it was the at that at that moment, I it's still that m that gig lives like really you know, as a really wonderful memory, to be honest with you. And it yeah, I think it was the first and and especially as well because that stage and that room is just an absolute joy to play in. So I think the combination of of really playing on a on a wonderful stage with wonderful sound, feeling like I was playing really well, yeah, and the audience really getting it, like it was just that. I think it was probably the first gig that I'd had where it really felt like that, and it really made me just want to do that more.

SPEAKER_00 29:18

Yeah, yeah. I think it I mean it's one of my favourite venues for that reason. It's just such a and I think you do get people that go to specially folk gigs are generally very supportive and will sit and absolutely absorb it in equally that can be quite daunting, isn't it? When you're out trying to make a bit of banter in between and then everyone's just sort of sitting on hanging on every word. I think it's probably quite hard.

SPEAKER_03 29:41

Yeah, well it's equal. I I often say it to a so to polite audiences, it's kind of equal parts, kind of well not quite equal parts, it's kind of slightly terrifying, but absolutely lovely as well. Like more lovely than terrifying.

SPEAKER_00 29:53

You hope, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:54

No, it definitely always is, but yeah, it's um it I think you just you learn to live, you know. I'm I'm sort of I've become quite comfortable with silence now, but I I like as well, it's one of those things with with time and with experience you get better at being able to talk to an audience and things like that, and sussing how to talk to an audience.

SPEAKER_00 30:12

And I think being uh often a singer-songwriter that's there on on your own, or maybe with one or two other people, when you've got the band, you know, you are a bit protected that you know, maybe you'll have a front person, yeah, and maybe they'll do all the talking, or you might do a bit of banter between you, or whatever. When you're on your own, you've got to do talk to the audience, else it's all going on in your head, isn't it? So definitely. And I mean, I think you joked on when I've seen you recently play that you know, half the time, especially for folk musicians, they've got to do a lot of tuning. And so you've got to try and work out a way that you can tune and talk at the same time, which I feel is a skill in itself.

SPEAKER_03 30:48

Yeah, um yeah, and so as time goes on, I seem to put my guitar in weirder and weirder tuning. So apologies for anyone that comes to see me play.

SPEAKER_00 30:59

But I I mean I love I love I love people that talk in between. I I don't really want to go. I I know some people just can't do the talking in between and that's fine, but I love it when people give us a bit more of themselves when you go. Otherwise you you could just listen to it at home.

SPEAKER_03 31:14

Yeah, no, I think it's important, I think it's important to strike a balance. And I think I think as well, I think it depends like stylistically. I think if I think it depends what what your I guess kind of yeah, what you're looking what you want the audience to feel like in a way. Like I feel like my songs are I've always tried to just be as honest as I can. Like, and yeah, like a lot of my songs are, you know, do tackle some quite heavy subjects and stuff like that, but like generally, like I'm I like a laugh, like and I'm you know, a sort of I'm not like a very serious person, sort of thing.

SPEAKER_00 31:48

So like I but if you listen to just the music, you might get it. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 31:52

And so I think I think when it's like you say it's it's a chance for you to to show a different side to yourself and to paint more of a rounded picture kind of thing. And I mean, yeah, and that's just my preference.

SPEAKER_00 32:03

I mean some people might choose to get up and not say a word and and that's their thing, and that's totally and I think some people don't want to have a different persona from their music when they're on stage, they become that person and that's them. And but I I like to to see the little cracks and the not the cracks as in, but just to see behind that and see who the person is and you know why they're writing what they do, and yeah, I feel it all adds to the the kind of realness of it all. Um yeah, I think again I have seen I'm very lucky to have seen the first uh gig of this tour, which again I keep saying we'll come back to I keep teasing it, but you did you you you'd you'd said some of the songs which were quite heavy and you know, not heavy but ha quite emotional. And then you're like, oh, I'm gonna lighten up a bit now and play one of your songs, Punch Back, which is about you know, taken from having the face that yeah, yeah, face was crying out for a fit for a fist in it. Yeah, which is kind of you you could say I mean it's the the term is tongue in cheek, but yeah, but what you're tackling isn't particularly light, but they didn't it made me laugh because you were like, well, you know, let's go for a lighter song now. But I mean as it gets, yeah, but folk singers aren't really known for their like jolly tunes anyway.

SPEAKER_02 33:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:25

And so how do you balance from that your you know um your creativity and process from and your personal experiences?

SPEAKER_03 33:36

Or do you find that you it fe just feeds in and that's yeah, I I don't ever it's um I'm not sure I've ever really gone out, like set out to write a particular type of song or or tackle a particular subject kind of thing. I'm I'm I'd say like definitely I I I tried to let things just happen quite naturally, sort of thing. Um like and this is a weird one, right? Because yeah, you can't just let things you have to sit down, yeah. You have to have the guitar there and you have to have a pen and paper. But in terms of I'm not sort of I don't think I've ever like sat down and said, Oh, I want to write a song about this, and like started to write about that, and it's more like I guess like when I come up with ideas often like sometimes the music will start first, and then I kind of like will play that around and around and around and kind of it will make it kind of conjures images kind of thing in a way and a feeling, and then I'll think about like a a title of a song that I've had like.

SPEAKER_00 34:33

So you start with the music, the music comes to you first. Yeah, do you have lots of voice notes and things? Yeah, hundreds, yeah, yeah, yeah. Is that how you if you're walking along, or you know, if something comes to you, yeah, bits of yeah if you're traveling.

SPEAKER_03 34:45

It definitely always used to be, it always used to be music first, but now I'd say sometimes the lyrical idea will come first, but it might only be the title of the song, say, or like just a line of lyric. So it's definitely more varied now, whereas it in the past it always used to kind of be music first, really, and then yeah, as I say, I just end up sort of playing them and they evolve. It's really interesting, actually, like going back through the voice notes and seeing kind of how the song changes from its first kind of like idea.

SPEAKER_00 35:14

But do you do you find it helpful? I mean, I'm sure you do find it helpful, although you wouldn't do it, but how much personality you want to put in into it, or do you hold any back? Because I feel like sometimes you can lay yourself so bare that then you're putting out to an audience and then you're like, oh hang on, please accept this, or else.

SPEAKER_03 35:34

Yeah, it is it it can be tough, and I think you have to make a decision as to kind of how much of yourself you want to share, but also as well, like I you know, my song I do try and be as honest as I can, but at the same time, I like to leave room in there for people to interpret it in their own way. I don't like to go soon and I all and again when talking about songs and what they mean, I'm always careful not to overshare because I don't want to force my meaning and interpretation of the song onto someone else. I think that's one of the really beautiful things about songs is that sometimes two people can have completely different um uh sort of interpretations of it and meanings for them, sort of thing.

SPEAKER_00 36:13

So I think it's about I've as I say I've always tried to, you know, I mean, take take a song like for example, like Hollows and Branches, like on the new album, like there's some really specific detail in there for me, but like there's no names, there's no dates, there's no places, there's nothing like I think the words that are used there could really people could take and make their own and sort of and so I'm I'm always conscious that I want to leave space for the listener to I think that's the clever way of writing is to you you're putting your personal things into it, but you're not saying, Oh you know, I went went down the road and I saw this and because you're you you have a good way of of writing metaphors or or just phrases that they say there's no time, place, or yeah, or people in it, but you can kind of like say then interpret it so my interpretation, like you say, could be completely different and what I take from it, but that's a beauty again, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 37:06

Yeah, and I've of it for for me I like that.

SPEAKER_00 37:08

I like I like you know, and I've I've got I've always tried to just create a a bit of a good bit of room in there that kind of now we'll we'll play in a minute your hollows and branch you've just mentioned that's from the uh the new album as well. Um you know we I know we're jumping backwards and forwards, but it makes complete sense. Um for Hollows and branches, well, for the whole album, can you explain? You said about you see when you write music you see images and you get that. Now I think that's fed into the name of the album and also how you wanted the looks because you know Matty did all of these, didn't he? And there is there is a definite look to them, but they're very different than what they do. So do you want to just give us a bit of us on that one?

SPEAKER_03 37:53

Yeah, I think Matt I think Matt just really I think his style really and really fit with my style. I think I think it was ri I he didn't go out of his way to change the way that he likes to shoot things, like he likes things to be very natural, he doesn't really use a lot of artificial light, if any, I don't think, really. Hence getting up a somewhat yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, um, you know, he he he really tries to keep things very real and very natural. Um he uses like some sort of vintage gear as well because he likes the kind of sort of grain that you get and things like that, and um and yeah, just I think he really understood like a lot of the sort of references to the natural world and stuff like that. So a lot of basically every video pretty much has kind of you know um sort of a lot of the natural world in it as well, and so those colours, I I think it just really fits the the lyrical imagery and the kind of whole vibe of the of the album, really.

SPEAKER_00 38:45

I think you mentioned before that you you love cinematography, you like like cinema and yeah and how films are. So is that the kind of look you were going for for the album or for the videos or both?

SPEAKER_03 38:56

Yeah, well I think I mean so the album title kind of came, I guess, kind of fur I knew the s the songs kind of thing, obviously, with the fur with the first thing, and then really once in the recording process I knew, well I need to give this thing a name kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00 39:07

Okay, so you hadn't decided on that.

SPEAKER_03 39:08

No, I didn't have the name, no no, and so it was weirdly I was making I was doing some voice notes at home, like some demos, acoustic demos, um, really to share with Nick before we started on the recording proper, just to demonstrate just the basic bare bones of the songs. And like on my phone, if you don't label a voice note, it comes up with the geolocation. Okay, and I was in my house and it came up with this geolocation of Limes Hotel, and I was like, that's weird. Um the name really struck me, and I just thought, well, that's really odd. Like, and I know my where our house is built, it was on the on an old school. And I looked around a bit like locally to try and find this if there was ever this lot like Limes Hotel. Our neighbour's house is called the Limes, but it's not like the hotel, never has been. Um and so yeah, it just really stuck stuck with me, and then I started to think about the parallels. As I say, like a lot of the overarching themes are kind of about life and death and life cycles and the idea of a hotel and people checking in and checking out, and it kind of it really and then it and then it started conjuring images of like oh okay, well, like it's kind of this fictional place, but it's kind of it gives the album like a location but not a real location, and then it started to just it just really gave me something to it once you got that, all then all the ideas just started flying everywhere. I was speaking to my friend Julian about what we would do for the cover shot, yeah. He's a fantastic photographer, um, and so yeah, it kind of all just kind of snowballed from there, really, and I just really felt that I really felt that the songs, the album title, the um the cover art, everything was pulling in the same direction, and then basically when I approached Matt, I knew that his style was gonna fit so well with it, and I'm just really pleased with how the whole thing has has come together. Like, I'm just really proud of the I guess the like the overall art direction of the entire album kind of thing. Um yeah, super proud.

SPEAKER_00 41:02

So it sounded like I mean, excuse the pump, but it was very organic, yeah. So that was worked very well for what the themes of it are.

SPEAKER_03 41:09

Yeah, and I'm glad, like, it's it's funny, you know, because like like things do take me a while, but like I think because I I I will sit and wait for it to feel right, which sometimes can take a while and life gets in the way and things like that. And I think I think whenever I've gone against my intuition, I've always re always, always regretted it. Like, and I think with with every single with the E first EP with the first album and with this latest one, I think I've tried to wait until it felt right. Um and yeah, I guess that's not the necessarily the way to be the most productive, like in terms of getting stuff out, but like as the result is is when I look back, there's not one decision really I made that I regret that like I'm super proud of the whole lot, yeah, yeah. Um, which is a nice feeling, especially sort of given the time frames involved.

SPEAKER_00 41:59

Yeah, you don't want to be going, oof, that one.

SPEAKER_03 42:01

Yeah, no, I'm still I'm still really happy to play songs from the first DP, and I'm still you know, um happy to share it and stuff.

SPEAKER_00 42:08

Yeah, so we're gonna play Hollows and Branches now. Um, do you want to say any more about it or just let people listen and I reckon just let people listen? Yeah, okay, let's do that.

SPEAKER_01 42:20

I'll never forget the mischief in your face. Red guys and rainbows and happy. I cut it to the event.

SPEAKER_00 46:16

That was Hollows and Branches taken from this latest album. Now we're going to jump back again to from when you released the EP in uh drove in um 2018, and then you sort of started taking off again with gigging and stuff?

SPEAKER_03 46:33

Yeah, I mean so so basically yeah, I was 2018 was the release of the EP and then I did some some gigging. Um and then really I started to think about recording a full album because by that time I'd amassed quite a lot more songs. Yeah. Um and we managed to just record sort of a couple sort of off the bat. I was quite lucky with my um with one of the songs off of off of Drove, Tom Robinson at Six Music, picked up on it. And that was sort of in the uh supporter since has been. And he was yeah, and he and he was a supporter of my old band. So that's kind of how I had that kind of I was on his radar already. Of course. Um and so he hit that was in kind of the the April of 2019. Um and it was great, like he made it like the track of the week and stuff like that, and that really helped to get sort of some bigger gigs and really it definitely greased the wheels in terms of you know, and and I'll really help. Did you support him as well? I have done, yeah, yeah, after that, yeah. And he invited me, like I think in the September of that year, he actually invited me to be the guest on his on his show on the Saturday night on Six Music. Yeah. And it really, again, a little bit like the Megan gig did, yeah, sort of like it really just opened out to a much wider audience. Um and so yeah, we but then basically at the tail end of 2019 started to record songs for the album, but then basically we we managed to finish two songs, but basically in early early 2020, we all know what happened. So it really put the put the brakes on everything. Um, couldn't record for months. I mean, thankfully, I got the two songs, I got the first two songs on the album, This Says and Blood Jump, that we'd finished those, so I could get those done, and I kind of released those as singles, but that was in 2020. The album didn't end actually end up being finished and come out until two years later. Yeah, yeah. Um, so it was a really strange time. I mean, as it you know, obviously it was for everyone, um, but it was really sort of yeah, it's just the way it worked, but it sort of really felt like there was a lot of momentum, and then all of a sudden it sort of really stopped.

SPEAKER_00 48:34

And I think you weren't the only one, unfortunately. It's like so many people you go to gigs and they're like, guess what? I released my debut album the week that we got shut down or whatever. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 48:43

I mean, I know people, I mean I guess in some ways I'm lucky that it I we'd only done a couple of songs so it allowed us to do those couple of songs. But I mean, I know people that literally put the out their album out like in that march and then just couldn't gig it. No. And then by the time they were ready to gig again, it was like old news. It was like they couldn't really talk about that album anymore, really, in a way. So yeah, it was we were all in the same boat, it was you know, and you know, in the grand scheme of things, thankfully we well, yeah, but we didn't know at the time, did we?

SPEAKER_00 49:12

That was I found that's what I found hardest about that time. It was like, hang on a minute, if we don't get back to this, yeah, is this we'll have to do everything through a TV screen. And you know, it was useful at the time and as best we could do, but Crikey, I can remember going back to gigs afterwards and being absolutely you know, looking up, thank you, whoever lets me do this, I will never take it for granted again, you know. Um so that our blood is red was the that album, wasn't it? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 49:41

So that was released in the July, I think it was of 2022.

SPEAKER_00 49:45

So things were then getting back to kind of normal in such you could take that out. Yeah. Um how did that?

SPEAKER_03 49:51

Yeah, and that was that was great. So yeah, I was lucky sort of had a couple of sort of like um I sort of played at Cambridge um folk club that year, um, and then I went out on kind of my first run of like of of headline gigs um in the kind of September. I was it in the yeah, it was in the autumn, sorry, of the sort of they span sort of September, October um of 2022, and that was great because it sort of up until that point I'd always done sort of shared billing or been on festivals and things like that, which has all been brilliant, but these were the first time being booked in a room and I'm the headline night act, and it and it was I was I just found it incredible, like um yeah, just just yeah, really, really loved the experience and um and how do you find um so do you just go on your own or do you take anyone with you for any of these?

SPEAKER_00 50:36

Do you have to do that?

SPEAKER_03 50:36

Yeah, so up until yeah, like I've been lucky um to lo to to sort sort of be joined at the at the Harrison gig that you came to. Yeah. I was really lucky to have dear wife who um who sings on a few songs on the album, so she came and played a support set, and I also played a song couple of songs with her, yeah, and she got up and sang a couple of songs with me. But really, I think that's the first time I've ever really yeah, in terms of my own gigs, I've really played with anyone else on my own stuff.

SPEAKER_02 51:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 51:05

Um I've done the odd odd bits of sort of collaborations of that, but as part of like very different billings, but in terms of my own headline gigs, it's the first time, and it was really lovely.

SPEAKER_00 51:15

Yeah, but does that mean you have to travel around though on your own and you Yeah, yeah you have to be comfortable in your own.

SPEAKER_03 51:20

Yeah, definitely, which I which I am, like and and I and I try and make you know the the gigs, you know, it is just me with a guitar, but like I've sort of got you know, playing drums, I've sort of got like a stomp box which I can use to add a bit more rhythm to certain songs. I use a little tiny little bit of looping as well, just to try and give the set, you know. I think you're asking a lot of an audience to concentrate on a a Garney's guitar for an hour without any you know variation kind of thing. I've got a track which is based on the youke and stuff like that. So I do try and you know, you know, play with the light and shade and the kind of dynamics of a set kind of thing, but essentially it is just me. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:57

That can be best and then hard as well.

SPEAKER_03 52:01

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I I definitely I mean it's not it's definitely not through not wanting to, it's just l logistics and and and as sort of as we spoke about earlier, from being in the band and basically being the one that was the logistics guy for five guys. The idea the idea of having to do that again at this stage, like it doesn't really appeal to be honest with you. The the really lovely thing was being able to do that thing like at the Harrison with with with Louise Dear Wife, um, because that again came about quite naturally, and it was lovely to be able to sing with her again.

SPEAKER_00 52:33

Um well I discovered her from hearing through your music, and you know it was great to hear.

SPEAKER_03 52:37

Yeah, and Antonia Kirby, who um sort of uh played an opening set um My Gigging Commentary, she got up and sang with me as well. So things like that have been lovely, so I definitely would love to do a bit more of that.

SPEAKER_00 52:48

Yeah, yeah. And do you think you see yourself in any collaborations in the future or just you'll see how it works? Yeah, there's not anyone you've got your eye on that you would love who like anyone if you if you could collaborate with anyone, is there anyone that you would I mean I I have I've thrown that one in. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 53:02

There's so many. I mean, a a you know, a songwriter that I really love and um been fortunate enough to sort of um um sort of hang out with and you know we we're sort of in touch is Amelia Coburn, like and I really oh yes, and I really feel like we've got like a sim quite a similar way that we approach songs like hers are quite dark, but again, she's got a cracking sense of humour, so she plays a lot with light and dark, and and I feel like I feel like a lot of the way that she she likes sort of strange chord progressions and her songs go off in places you don't expect them to, and so I think probably I mean there's so many people, don't get me wrong. I've got so many f amazing sort of friends and people I've been lucky enough to play with and stuff like that, but I think in terms of imagining have you played with her before? Or have you been? No, we've never managed to do it together before.

SPEAKER_00 53:48

I think she's doing something in the autumn. I think you have to around here to get you on there. Um I want to go back though to so you would you've been doing for that uh album, but how does your work and kind of day-to-day life, if you like, fit in with what you do with your music?

SPEAKER_03 54:09

Sure, yeah. So I'm I'm really fortunate I work for some friends of mine, um, my friend Chris, he he formed a company called Yeah, New Noise Audio um quite a few years ago, and it's basically making creating bespoke music for for adverts, film, TV, and stuff like that. Um I work mainly, I I started doing sort of like freelance bits of composition and production for them. Um but that now my role is kind of more on the sort of client-facing brieftaking side.

SPEAKER_04 54:36

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_03 54:36

Um, but it's it's great, like I get I get involved, we sort of produce like production music, like albums as well. Um, and that's great because essentially that's just getting in a room with with my mates and and and writing music sort of thing. So it's it's perfect, yeah. It's great, and it's kind of you know, and often it takes me in different directions. I mean, we've done we we were given a brief to write a sort of an album, I think it was called like 80s heroes, and it was like all like really big, like kind of um sort of you know, sort of 80s stadium rock and power ballads and kind of and stuff like that, and it was um and sort of the sort of song it I think the the brief loosely was the sort of songs you'd imagine on like classic 80s films.

SPEAKER_00 55:17

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_03 55:18

And so we almost we almost the way we went about it is we almost thought of what the film would be and then wrote the song from there kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00 55:25

So they didn't want you to do covers of bands, no, it was just like an out of the way.

SPEAKER_03 55:29

Inspired, basically inspired by yeah, inspired by so we ended up with a huge playlist of references, and we'd sort of think, Oh okay, we want to do you know a song which is a little bit like this or like that. Key change, yeah, exactly, yeah, and you know, all the sort of yeah things, and we've done we've done a few, we did like a 70s rock one, we've done like a new wave one.

SPEAKER_00 55:47

Um so yeah, they're they're really probably feeds into your you said you you know the way you see things in in cinema or in film, so it's probably perfect for especially for taking client blip briefs as well.

SPEAKER_03 55:58

Yeah, definitely, and and and it's one of those things, it it's a nice way, a little bit like I alluded to when I sort of stopped the band and then started doing my own thing. The really great thing like with this is being able to flex those muscles like and do the thing that I really love, which is getting in a room essentially and writing a song, yeah, but it not being there not being the pressure of oh I've got to release this as my own thing, like and again that sense of that idea of collaboration. I think definitely up until now, I've all you know all of my songs that I've released to this point have been written solely by me, but through this process over the last couple of years of working with them, like I definitely would like to do more, I think, some writing with other people. But that's but for my collaborative, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 56:43

So you're you're you're realising without all the logistics of getting you all round on tour or whatever and turning up at a band rehearsal, you're there for work. I mean, what a brilliant thing to work with to get a job that complements what you're doing.

SPEAKER_03 56:55

Yeah, and it is really great because it it ki it keeps your mind focused and it's still a creative role kind of thing. Um but also as well, you get essentially you get being on the brief take side of it, you just get to talk to a lot of people about music, which I love doing as well. So and you get to go off and listen to lots of references. I'm gonna say it must give you a little really broad thing of listening to other genres. Yeah, exactly, which I wouldn't probably otherwise do. Yeah, not time as much ending.

SPEAKER_00 57:22

So that's brilliant, and also um you said about how you play the drums, but you know on your own music, you're only not only, but you're putting in percussion rather than a full drum kit. But I know that you also play in another band. You you have you do play in a band, um and it's a rock and roll band. So how did that come about?

SPEAKER_03 57:43

Um so yeah, for I mean for many years so I've learned learnt drums from like you know, sort of early, early teen years and played in bands, drums for a few bands and things like that throughout my school, school years. Um but then really never because I was in this band the October game and I was the sort of you know rhythm guitar player, principal songwriter, singer, I didn't just didn't have time to do any any drumming outside that. So I just found myself wanting to play but not having an an outlet kind of for it. And again, when I basically I guess when I got back from um from my time away, sort of travelling and working abroad and realizing this, you know, music's something I can't step away from. I just thought, well, it'd be great to kind of you know to to play kind of thing. And again, because I wasn't doing my own thing at that point, I was like, it just would kind of be fun just to get in a band and stuff like that. And yeah, I just I happened to meet these guys on like join my band.co.uk or stuff like that that were after a drummer. Um so you've been with it quite a while then. Yeah, well I again, so that was another funny thing. So I've been with them twice essentially. So we we gigged, I think, um, for a while, but then basically when my music was getting busier and busier and busier, I was having to let them down more frequently.

SPEAKER_02 58:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 59:00

And then basically the pandemic happened. So the bat they basically stopped as a band. And then it was a few years ago they were thinking about getting the band back together, and they said, you know, would you come, would you come back? And I said, Well, I'm still doing my own stuff, but like if you know make it work, yeah, and if you can get the dep dep every now and again if I can't do a gig and stuff, and they were just like, Yeah, okay, let's let's get the band back together. So um but yeah, I re I really love it.

SPEAKER_00 59:23

It's so they do they do original stuff and covers or just all covers?

SPEAKER_03 59:26

All covers, all covers, all rock and roll. It's all rock and roll, so it's all kind of um um, yeah, we don't like do any sort of Mersey beat or anything like that. It's all like Chuck Berry, Roy Orbison, Buddy Holly, Elvis, um yeah, Dion. And what's the name of the band? Go Johnny Go. I mean, um Chuck Berry, yeah. Um but yeah, it's really great fun. It's a lot of the music, it was I think they were astonished when I first met them that this young guy knew like all the words to all of this music, but so much of it was what I grew up on with my dad, you know. I mean, songs like Shaking All Over, you know, by Johnny Kidd and the Pirates. I mean, I knew that song back to front. I knew exactly how to play it on the drums, you know. Um, I knew all the Everly stuff, I knew all the harmonies, so I could sing them with the singer. So I think they were really blown away. And I just I just love that music so much.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:13

Like, and that's also it sounds like because you grew up with it, it's almost like a second response to do that. You it's not taking a lot of time to practice to you know, having to learn them from the spectrum. You know how to do it. And it's a pleasure as well.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:26

It's a pleasure, like it's like I feel it's really weird with the rock and roll band. I almost feel like we're going out and spreading the gospel of rock and roll. Like I it's kind of I always almost see it as like our mission to like, because it's just such fabulous music, and I think, and yeah, we're we're really fortunate. We we do a lot of sort of um social clubs and kind of small um sort of some of them are like old cinemas that've been converted and stuff like that. Um but yeah, some of the gigs um we're really lucky that a lot of the people come and they're wearing like the rock and roll dresses and they can really jump dance and they're throwing each other around and stuff. Um so yeah, I mean obviously some other places just the nature of the sort of I guess the the the era of the music, sort of older audiences, and but just to see them, you sort of get this glimpse of you know, they'd have been dancing to that music in their kind of you know 20s kind of thing or their teen years, and it's a really beautiful thing to have that connection with that music, which means so much to me because it was such a big part of my childhood, and hopefully keeps it a little bit alive as well, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:25

Because it can be lost in things.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:28

It's just really good fun, and I and I love I love playing drums, so it's it just gives me a great, it's kind of the ideal outlet really for that.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:34

Yeah, that's it it all comes together in a really lovely way. Now let's play another one of the singles from the album. Um this is gonna be ends. Yeah. Um anything you want to say more about this or what what you were looking for for the video?

SPEAKER_03 1:01:49

Um yeah, it was um so the song again is another one that kind of like I guess touches on the kind of themes of kind of like the album really was kind of came out of the time sort of a bit of a tough time, and it was around really the the release of my first album that I lost a couple of friends of mine, one of whom was Steve, who put me forward for my first ever gig.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:09

Um and had played such a big part in encouraging me to kind of pursue my own music. Um and yeah, and sad really sadly, and and another friend of ours passed away away around the same sort of time, which was much less like expected. Steve had been ill for a while, so it was kind of something we knew was coming. Yeah. Our other friend was completely out of the blue, and I I think both in different ways really shook us. Like and I think I just found just myself pondering a lot, I think, on just on on their lives and on my own mortality and the mortality of the people that are still around, and um you know, not in an overly morbid way, but just in a kind of like I think trying to find a sense of acceptance and and it and and I think ends probably I'd say that song is acceptance. It's it's the trying to trying to kind of f find that kind of yeah, acceptance that th kind of everything comes around in the end kind of thing. And yeah, and and kind of the we we chose like all a lot of the s the songs on the album um like have like symbols kind of thing in the artwork, and that's kind of the the infinity kind of uh logo again because it kind of we felt it really represented kind of what the song was about, and and yeah, it's um yeah the chorus lyrics especially uh a sort of um um kind of play out like well sort of yeah, sort of explore I guess that idea of acceptance and that idea that um that yeah that thing things move on but they all also remain kind of thing as well. Um and it's quite funny actually doing the video because we realised like kind of halfway through it's funny how sometimes you perform things and we did it. And I was kind of like almost some of the meanings of the song kind of like when you stood there singing it like a hundred times in a row, there were almost like other levels of meaning which didn't like that I'd kind of not really hadn't almost like fully sunk in kind of thing. Um so that was really interesting to do the video and um yeah um you'll see with like a performance take, we chose chose to keep it super simple, but Matt actually ended up using some footage that he'd shot in the lake district many years before and didn't have a home for, and so yeah, we decided to play around with projections and projecting that on the performance.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:27

So this is ends up for you will go preaching for still you do not know There's an end inside time carries on relentless past along after your call There's a need to fight it, but there's a door each day before you pull And you never glide with edges And you I will stay where the mortals bring me Fledgling wing I'll never need for another thing Where all of these ends will be Where all of these ends will be in silence cooling back to me. Cut from the flow, separated from all things you know. There's a choice to be made here, but one day you'll no longer have your say Cause it all comes around when you're no longer gaining ground when every end of every thread is one again and you I will see where the mortal spring meets fledgling wing and I will never need for another thing. Where all of these ends will be all of these ends will be the kind of thing. I will never need for another thing. Where all of these ends will be Well of these ends will be Well of these ends will be in silence cool in back to me.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:12

So that was Ens from the latest album. Now you're currently touring that album, um, and how's it going for a start?

SPEAKER_03 1:09:22

Yeah, brilliant, yes, it's just a small run of headline dates. Um but yeah, done sort of four out of the five so far. Um been fantastic, yeah. Um yeah, The Harrison um in King's Cross in London, and then did uh Merry Street Live in Sheffield, uh LTB showrooms in Coventry and then Wax and Beans Record Store in Bury.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:43

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:43

So yeah, no, it's been they've been really lovely.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:45

Yeah, yeah. It's quite nice, it must be quite nice going around to various places and getting similar stroke, different reactions from different people. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:57

Yeah, I mean it's been a it's been a mix, sort of like there's been some people at the gigs that have been sort of following me for years. There's been sort of some completely brand new people that have either heard yeah, sort of me on the radio perhaps, or like um uh sort of in some of the publicity, sort of coming towards the gigs, and then other people that just follow the venues and go and sort of just see what the venues are putting on, really. Um but no, I've just been some, yeah, just lovely venues, lovely audiences, yeah, really good fun.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:23

Yeah, and so what's coming next?

SPEAKER_03 1:10:26

Um so yeah, so um I've got my the the Cambridge gig, which is gonna be at the J3 on Friday the 12th of June. Oh yes, yeah, brilliant.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:34

And that's Melody Cole supporting as well. So yeah, excellent.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:37

Yeah, so that's gonna be a really lovely night. Um and then yeah, I've got sort of a a co-headline uh gig at the Bishop's Storford Acoustic Club at the South Mill Art Centre. Um and then some like various sort of festivals. And you're playing the Cambridge Folk Festival. Cambridge Folk Festival, yeah. Um and then I've also got some other festivals across the summer as well. Um and then I'll perhaps look to do perhaps another run of small run of headline dates in the autumn.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:01

Yeah, and then you're not already starting writing for another album, or you haven't given yourself a little bit of a.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:06

It's funny, I'm just because it's been so the the build-up to the album with the various singles and then the album release and then the gigs, the it's just starting to go now. Like I I'm just starting to think because I've got a couple of weeks now before the before the junction gig and then the the festivals and various little gigs are quite spread out over the summer, so I'm actually really looking forward to digging into all those unfinished ideas and and then just seeing where it goes next. I find this bit like the one of the most exciting parts of the process, like the because again, I don't know like what's coming.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:40

What if just as as things start bringing it?

SPEAKER_03 1:11:42

Yeah, it's just that that idea that you've got lots of this little things bubbling away, but you don't know quite what direction you're gonna go in, sort of thing. So yeah, looking forward to it.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:52

Is there bits that you don't like? I mean it it's I feel like some maybe it's a mean question to ask because we all No, I think I think sometimes it can be even harder.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:03

Yeah, I think well sometimes it can be sometimes what can be a real challenge is if you've got us an idea which you think is a great idea, but you just can't finish it to a to the standard at which you want to make it. Sometimes you can have a great song title and then you write the song and the song's rubbish, or you know, or you you just might be a few lines off of you know off of completion, so the song's like really nearly there. That can be really frustrating. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:27

Um but you find you do some and you get right the way they're then they don't fit with the others, and then have you had to abandon songs?

SPEAKER_03 1:12:33

Well, I mean there's there's an awful lot that haven't made it onto something again because I once I get kind of a general idea of where I want it to go, yeah. There are some that just in my own head just don't fit with that collection of songs, so they just get put to one side, and for whatever reason, there are some songs which which didn't feel right for the EP, didn't feel right for the first album, and didn't feel right for the second album. So whether they'll ever see the light of day, I'm not sure. But um Do you go back to them ever? Or probably I'm gonna Yeah, I'll go back and listen to them and see if they will be what you can change. Yeah, exactly. And like um a couple of years ago I started like a Patreon page. So again, like a lot of those like demos and things like that, I'll share with with them. Um and again it's a really interesting way of going back and sort of forcing you to because I'm not recording them sort of properly and going into a studio and paying out, it's actually quite a good way to audition songs without having to play them live. You can sort of just put it out there and sometimes you don't really know how you feel about a song until you share it, kind of thing. If you live with it too much, you can be so too much in your own head, but I think the moment you put it out there and you hit let other people hear it, sometimes you go, Oh, that wasn't great, or you might think actually, I think that's got something, you know, it's and it's worth maybe revisiting.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:46

Yeah, yeah. And is there anywhere if you were looking forward to the future three, five years time, is there anywhere that you you're thinking, I really want to aim for this, or I want to have another album out this or or is it just kind of more fluid?

SPEAKER_03 1:14:02

Yeah, I'd say I I'm as I say, I'm I'm I'm really happy and proud of everything I've done up to this point, so I'd say just just if I can just keep it going, just keep it sustainable. You know, it's it's tough, it's a tough climate out there to make music in a sustainable way and not sort of lose too much money. Um so it's it's I think it's just it really the aim really is just to keep it sustainable, keep it enjoyable, keep feeling like I'm challenging myself artistically, creatively, and you said about collaboration potentially in the future. Yeah, absolutely, yeah, and just just growing, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:35

Is there any festivals though that you'd like you like yourself that you'd love to be like to see yourself at?

SPEAKER_03 1:14:39

I mean, yeah, I mean Glastonbury's got I guess the best festival I've I've ever been to. Yeah. Um so I mean, yeah, that would be huge, obviously.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:46

Um sometimes there are ways in and these are. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:50

Yeah, but no, I mean I because both of you you know you know I've I was it for me it was a massive thing when I I played Cambridge Folk Festival, you know, and that's such a beautiful festival and I'm so delighted to be back there this year. So now I'm I'm you know, I need I'm I just love having dates in the diary, you know. I look forward to all of them, they're all sort of special in their own way kind of thing. Um but yeah, just to do just to do more of it, uh you know, as I say, going out, sticking my gear in the back of the car and driving somewhere new and playing music is is always thrilling.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:21

So and one question I didn't ask you earlier, but I think it's kind of relevant still now, is do you think your sound has evolved or changed in any way, or do you think it's similar but you just done more of it since like that first EP to now?

SPEAKER_03 1:15:34

I think the sound is the overall sound it really at at its core and the print principally it's it's my voice and guitar. Like but then I think I I think I think that I think I I'm getting better as a songwriter. I think that I think the songs just generally like are like I I but I I it's funny because you don't know if it's like necessarily like a quality thing or if it's just I'm writing because you're always react you're writing songs reacting to kind of where you are at that point in time. So it might not necessarily be that they're better, they're just more relevant to where you are at that point in your life. Um so So you feel like oh yeah, well that's obviously that's better than that, but not necessarily it's not necessarily a quality judgment, it's more just like they feel the songs like when I play songs from the first EP, like I'm still really proud of them, but they don't necessarily feel like I'm not in that space anymore. I wrote them a long time ago, so I was kind of a you know, it was a different point in my life, whereas the ones that are on the most recent album they are reflections and kind of like um of things that have happened quite recently, so I guess it's they still they still feel quite raw and quite visceral and and relevant, I guess, emotionally.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:43

And and how do then you work out set lists when you start getting more and more songs? I haven't asked anyone this before because how do you choose like which ones to keep in? Because especially if you're touring with a new album, you can't generally play the whole album. No. Because people be like, hang on, don't give us all the new stuff straight away.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:01

We want yeah, we want uh, you know, whatever it is that they're I think first and foremost, like I'm you know, I like I'm a massive music fan, I make music and always have done, but I'm a massive music fan. So I think I just I almost think about it how if I was going to a gig by an artist that was doing a new album, like kind of what would be the balance that I'd be happy with kind of thing. Um and I think as well, once you I think it's getting that balance of um you know, because I've gigged the first EP a lot and then I gigged the album a lot, you kind of know which songs work particularly well live.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:35

Okay, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:36

So it's like well then you just play the ones that were particularly worked well live and got a good reaction kind of thing, like were quite immediate, I guess, um, from those, and then kind of um a mi it mixed in with you know the majority of stuff from the new album.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:49

But I And I guess also trying to work out which ones you're gonna um play from the new album. Yeah, exactly. I guess having dear little dear wife straight noise there will you know, okay that's easy, then you'll do the one that you're gonna do with her.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:03

Yeah, and obviously, you know, the I guess the reason that you kind of pick the singles that I released are because you feel that they are like the m perhaps the most immediate or the the songs that are gonna get the sort of quickest reaction that people can kind of digest the quickest kind of thing. Yeah. Um and yeah, I guess that yeah, that kind of would be. And I cut across you then, but you were saying you love I don't know if you love it. Oh yeah, like in the same way uh as like curating an album. Like I love curating a set list. I love thinking about and and again it's it then that the the picture becomes r really quite sort of rich in terms of the lyrical themes and where you can go in a set kind of thing and playing with those highs and lows, which I just like to do. Um so yeah, I love I love writing set lists, is it's always really good fun.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:50

Yeah, it's brilliant. Now um I've been asking this to everybody, but do you have any advice that you would give to your younger self looking back or maybe to young artists that are starting now?

SPEAKER_03 1:19:00

Yeah, I mean this would be to both my younger self and to any anyone else, like just trust your gut. Just a hundred percent. Like they're like there's no one like you, like you you know just whatever feels right to you, just make it sustainable if you can, because it's a hard, you know, it's as I say, it's not you know, it's not for the faint-hearted writing and recording and releasing your own music. Um and I think you just need to find a way, as I say, that's sustainable, that you can keep continue doing it over a long period of time to not kind of burn yourself out, um, but ultimately on a creative and artistic level, just be as true to yourself and as you can.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:40

Yeah, yeah, that's that is very good. I think uh a lot of people need to just keep that and then you know the rest will come, won't it? And is there any uh artists around I think you've mentioned Amelia Coburn that you'd like to collaborate with, but any artists that you'd like to recommend or you think that we should check out that we might listen to in case we haven't heard of them?

SPEAKER_03 1:19:58

Yeah, I mean definitely Dear Wife, sort of who's such like a yeah, like a big part of the of the of the new album. Yeah, I'd yeah, also shout out to the the brilliant artists that I've had sort of playing with me. Obviously, like Melody Coles and Dodo Bones that were with me in Sheffield, and um uh Antonia Kirby as well, she's a brilliant um songwriter from Warwickshire. Um and Colin uh Anderson as well, who's a brilliant poet from up sort of yeah, Summer Seat near Bury as well. So yeah, I've sort of it's been really magic. They're all people that I've had like a close course connection with or played with before, and so yeah, I'd thoroughly recommend going and checking all of them out.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:32

Well, before we finish, we are gonna play another song, but I want to thank you now for such a lovely uh chat and finding out all more about it. Now um we're gonna do Full Moon, which is taken from the album, but um you you you explain what what it's about kind of what it's about, but what why the audience participation that you've had to you've created.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:53

So um yeah, so the song um yeah, the song is called Full Moon, it's probably the most rocky kind of moment on the album. Um it's kind of about the kind of the dangers of I guess of of greed and kind of the the kind of blind pursuit of what we want without really thinking about the the danger it could cause to us or other people.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:14

And and the video is is um is really a well it's a whole cinema story in itself, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 1:21:22

Yeah, it is again like yeah, please do check out the video um well which you're gonna see. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:27

But it's but it's got dance they're actually d they are dancers, aren't they?

SPEAKER_03 1:21:30

They were both members of the uh sort of yeah, former members of the English Youth Ballet, so yeah, I was really um amazed um that yeah we managed to get them uh sort of in the video. Matt had worked with them before previously on a on a shoot, um, and they yeah, just did a fantastic job of all all of them involved interpreting the song in that way. Like it was really, really interesting.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:49

But explain the audience participation so that people know if they come and see you anywhere, they know that they can have if they want to, they can really get into this.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:58

Yeah, so on the on the album I always had the idea of it's got this quite big sort of outro, and I kind of thought, oh, wouldn't it be brilliant to get this some like really high-pitched kind of Kate Bush-esque banshee wailing, howling at the moon type thing, and a friend of mine, Orion, she's the only person I've ever known who can cover and absolutely smash a Kate Bush song. And so I was like, she's she's the one that like to do this, and she did, she came in and did an amazing job of it. But unfortunately, she doesn't come around and do the gigs. And one the first time I played it was up at uh yeah, the Case The Arts and Heritage Centre. It was the first time I'd ever played the song live, and I kind of was recounting this story about having you know inviting my friend to do these kind of banshee wailing and howling at the moon. And this gentleman just piped up in the audience and with the most fantastic like wolf howl. And I was just like, Well, you know, she's not here, but you know, you guys go for it if you want. So we got to the end of the song, and everyone the audience stole started howling. And uh so the next night in Durham, I I tried it on the audience again, fully expecting it to fall completely on its in on its face. Yeah, but again, everyone got involved, and I I feel like it's yeah, and everyone came up to me afterwards and sort of said, Oh, it felt really good to kind of get that out of my system. So it's kind of it's kind of become the kind of group therapy part of the set. Yeah, yeah, it's howling therapy. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:12

Well, thank you very much, Luke. It's been an absolute pleasure. And we're gonna play full moon now.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:17

Thank you very much for having me.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:18

Cheers, on a night, night tonight, it feels like that between death and life. It's a fake.