LIVED - Maryanne Sayers: Love, Loss & Starting Again

In this deeply personal episode of LIVED, Maryanne Sayers steps out from behind the role many know her for - as a baby sleep consultant.

For the first time publicly, Maryanne opens up about the story that led to the devastating loss of her husband, when their two children were still very young.

Along the way, she reflects on the career pivot that took her from the corporate world to becoming a baby sleep consultant.

This is a conversation about love, loss, resilience, and transformation.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:08

Hi everyone and welcome to our podcast lived. I'm Mary Ann Sayers. And I'm Tara Steinweed. Today we're going to be doing an episode to get to know Mary Ann. I'd love to hear all about your story and what led you to here today with me doing a podcast together.

SPEAKER_02 0:26

I think you and I have talked about the fact that, you know, this whole podcast is all about life and people's experiences. And I, yeah, we thought it might be a good opportunity for us to share our own stories on this episode or with me, but you're coming up, Tara.

SPEAKER_00 0:42

We'll do the next one.

SPEAKER_02 0:43

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 0:44

Well, let's get straight into it. I'd love to hear a little bit about your childhood and we'll start from there. Let's start from there.

SPEAKER_02 0:51

Look, I had I was uh born the youngest of four children, so lived in southwestern Sydney. I have two older sisters and an older brother. I had a very happy childhood, actually. Um very uneventful. There was no family dramas or divorce or separation or anything like that. In fact, my parents were married for 65 years. Wow. Up until a couple of years ago when my dear father passed away from dementia. But look, it was a really happy, stable childhood, really steady upbringing. I completed school, I did my HSC. And when I left school, I wasn't too sure what I wanted to do. I didn't go to university, didn't really know what I wanted to do. So I did what a lot of people did back then, which was I went my first job out of school was working in a bank. So I left school, went into the bank, was there for a couple of years, and sort of over the next few years uh worked in a couple of different jobs. I had a couple of different relationships at that time. Um during that time I lived in New Zealand actually for 14 months.

SPEAKER_00 1:57

Oh, I didn't know that about you.

SPEAKER_02 1:59

Yeah, I did. Um, I my the the guy that I was with at the time had a sort of a job over there, so we relocated over there for about 14 months. So that was that was fun living over there, and I've still got a real affinity for New Zealand today. I love that, love that place. Um, yeah, very straightforward. Uh I'll fast forward now to 1997, which is when I met my husband, Peter. We met on a night out, as all good relationships start. We started dating, and very early on in the relationship, he had mentioned to me that he had a few health issues, but he didn't go into a lot of detail. He mentioned lupus, and I'd heard of lupus, and he'd explained to me that he'd been diagnosed with lupus when he was about 17. I knew it was an autoimmune disease, but he sort of played it down, and I found out afterwards that he was very much playing it down because it was a new relationship that we were together. He didn't really want to start divulging lots around that in case I left him, kind of thing. Um, so for the next few months we dated and he also indicated that he had a heart issue and he'd just seen a cardiologist. And I remember thinking at the time, oh, you know, I was asking him about it, and he again just sort of saying, Oh, it's fine, you know, there's no problems at all.

SPEAKER_00 3:19

And how old were you at this age? So I would have been 26.

SPEAKER_02 3:24

Okay, and how old was Peter? So he was a year older than me, so he was 27. So when we met, I was 26, he was 27. We started, we started living together. So the relationship got serious pretty quickly. Then in 1998, we traveled over to Hong Kong. My sister lived over there with her family. When we got back from Hong Kong, a few days after we got back, he got really, really unwell. He basically started um coughing up blood. He was having this big incident at home, he ended up in hospital. They thought it was a DVT, you know, a deep vein thrombosis, which they used to worry about on long haul flights. So because of his history with lupus, uh, they were concerned that there was potentially a deep vein thrombosis, a DVT as they called it. Anyway, he was in hospital for quite a while, and it was around during his stay in hospital that he divulged to me that, and by this stage the medical team was involved. So I knew that actually he'd been diagnosed with uh a condition called pulmonary hypertension, but he hadn't told me that. And so I was really shocked to hear that. I didn't know what that meant. I didn't know what pulmonary hypertension was. But once I started sort of researching it, he came out of hospital. He's in hospital for a couple of weeks at that stage, and really from that point on, I really wanted to research as much as I could into this illness. He was very frightened, you know, he had said to me he'd missed a couple of appointments intentionally because he's a young man, you know, and he was trying to do his best to avoid confronting that he'd been diagnosed with a very serious heart and lung illness.

SPEAKER_00 5:03

Um sorry, were you, I'll just ask, were you upset with Peter or were you understanding that he had really downplayed his illness?

SPEAKER_02 5:14

I was not upset with him because I could see how frightened he was. And he's he was a very outgoing person, um, had a great sense of humour. So to see him really vulnerable like that when he was sharing with me, look, I didn't want to tell you, and actually I've been missing a couple of appointments because I really don't want to deal with it. I really sympathized with him and said to him, you know, that I will, I will, I'm there. Like we were well and truly into our relationship by now. This is probably love. Yeah, we were, yeah, absolutely. It was about 12 months in. So the next couple of years, I spent as much time, you know, we didn't have really have, I mean, we had the internet back then, but it wasn't like today you could just Google anything. So I just spent as much time as I could researching the illness. I ended up getting in contact with some people, some medical professionals over in the US, you know, discussing pulmonary hypertension. I wanted to learn as much about it as I could. And at that stage, also, he really focused on the fact that he needed to confront this and um, you know, go to his cardiologist appointment. And it was around that time that he was referred down to the um heart-lung clinic at St. Vincent's Hospital in Sydney. So he became an ongoing patient under their care uh from that point on. Um then we got engaged in 2001, and I'm I'm gonna mention the date, February the 9th, and you'll you'll understand why, but that's the date we got engaged. So February the 9th, and that date is gonna come up a couple more times during this story.

SPEAKER_00 6:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 6:53

Um so we got engaged, and that year 2001, it was a really, really challenging year with his health. He had a lot of health setbacks that year. Um, one in particular, which I will never forget, was he was in and out of hospital quite a lot. His illness was progressing. What I did know about pulmonary hypertension was that it is a progressive illness. It's a very serious illness. So basically, what it is, it's high blood pressure in the arteries that carry the blood from the heart to the lungs. On its own, pulmonary hypertension is, you know, a fairly manageable illness. However, his condition was complicated by the fact that he had the lupus, the autoimmune complications, which really complicated um his particular illness. Because often with pulmonary hypertension, they will actually do a heart-lung transplant. But unfortunately, he wasn't a suitable candidate for that because of his autoimmune complications, basically. Um, and it was actually from the lupus that the pulmonary hypertension came about. So the lupus is where it's basically your um autoimmune system mounts an attack on healthy tissues and organs. So he'd been diagnosed with that when he was 17, as I said. So he had a very complex kind of situation. But going back to that particular year, 2001, there were so many things that happened that year. One of them in particular was he had a lung hemorrhage at home, which was horrific. Um he basically started coughing up blood. Um, I was wanting to ring the ambulance, and I actually, because it was just so traumatic to see what was happening, I actually passed out. Wow. So he was so I passed out, um, came to a couple of minutes later, and I was just, I was just a mess. I was just so traumatized by what I was seeing.

SPEAKER_00 8:52

Very confronting.

SPEAKER_02 8:53

It was extremely confronting. So I anyway, I, you know, obviously rang the ambulance by this stage and he ended up in hospital. Um there was another time that I was down in Melbourne. I worked in sales and marketing at that stage, and I was down in Melbourne on a business trip, and I was about to get up and do a presentation. This was all in that same year, so that 2001, the year that we got engaged. And when I was about to go up on stage to do this presentation, um a call came through. I got called down from the stage, and they said, We've just had a phone call from Sydney. You need to get back to Sydney urgently. He'd gone into hospital that day for a procedure, and unfortunately, um something went wrong, and he was in intensive care, and they didn't know whether he was going to pull through. So I had to, I was on an emergency flight back to Sydney at that stage. So there was a lot of these kind of, it was just, it was a lot, and it was around this time, later on that year, that I'd started developing um panic attacks. I've never ever had a panic attack in my life. I've never had anything related to anxiety. So I would be, you know, going to work appointments um or work meetings, and I would have to um ring ahead to say I can't make the meeting, I would go home. I was, I was really struggling to even leave the house. And I know that it was triggered by everything that was going on with his illness at that stage. I really wasn't handling it very well at all. I was just having these, like I would go out in public and I would just feel like I was going to throw up or I would feel like I was going to pass out. And it was really impacting my ability to work. I remember one time we went out for dinner, one of the rare occasions we got to go out to dinner. We walked into the restaurant, we sat down, I start suddenly started getting that feeling of just needing to get out of there. I went to the toilet, I was in the toilet, I was just freaking out in the toilet, and to the point where he came in and he realized what was happening, and we just left the restaurant and went straight home. And I remember speaking to my manager at that stage and saying, I'm not coping. She knew about um the issues that that Peter was having. And basically, I had the next three or four months off work. They were really my the company I was with at the time was fantastic. So I basically had three or four months off. I started seeing a psychologist. It was just a lot.

SPEAKER_00 11:13

And so were you obviously being Peter's fiancee, you were his main point of contact and carer. But was any of his family members helping with doctor's appointments or being there with him maybe whilst you were at work? Because that's a lot of weight to carry on your shoulders.

SPEAKER_02 11:33

Yeah, thank you. It it it was. He so his family situation was he had a um a brother and a sister. His brother was overseas, um, so but his sister was very, very supportive at that stage. His um his father passed away when he was very young, he was a teenager, and his mum had dementia, so it was only a very small family. But certainly his sister was very, very supportive during that time. Um, but other than that, yeah, it was just, I just invested myself so much into wanting to um, as I said, learn as much as I could about the illness. But these sorts of health setbacks when they happen, these medical incidents was just so unexpected and so shocking when they happened. Um so I sort of, yeah, it the panic attack stayed with me for probably a good 18 months. And that next year, which is when we were due to get married on February the 9th.

SPEAKER_00 12:33

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_02 12:34

So we, and that was a bit of a coincidence, but we were like, oh, well, we got, you know, engaged on February the 9th, and February the 9th the following year happened to fall on a Saturday, so we thought that was really special, right? It was a special date. So 2000, and so this is 2002. Uh, in January, I went on my Hens Day with all of my girlfriends. We went to the races. That was probably around, I'm thinking that must have been about the third or fourth week of January. When I was at the races, I got a call from my father at that stage, and he said, Peter's been taken to hospital. So this this was again, he hadn't been well. He was at home when I left. He'd had an episode at home, he'd got taken to hospital. So I raced home from my Hensday that afternoon and ended up going into the hospital, and things were going wrong very, very quickly with him. His uh basically all of his kind of organs were shutting down at this stage. He ended up in critical care. So this is like a week and a half out from our wedding, uh, maybe two weeks, maybe two weeks out from our wedding. And he was just in a really, really bad way. This all happened quite quickly. The doctor said to me, Look, we're gonna be really up front with you. His organs are shutting down, and this was the lupus, so this was sort of triggered by the lupus, and basically we don't know if he's gonna pull through.

SPEAKER_00 14:09

So what went through your head in that moment? Oh, I remember sort of your wedding coming up, just your future.

SPEAKER_02 14:20

Honestly, I just it was like I was it was like I was watching someone else's life, if that makes sense, because we were really looking forward to our wedding, everything was planned, and at that stage I thought, my god, he's not even gonna like literally this this is it. Like I literally thought this was it. I remember it was like a bedside vigil, all of his friends, um, family, we were by his sort of bedside. The doctors spoke to me and said, Look, they knew about that, they knew the wedding was coming up, and they said, You're going to have to cancel the wedding. And and I knew that because clearly he was extremely unwell. So the next week it was all just about you know, getting him through. Um eventually what happened, so after about a week, he started to turn the corner a bit, which was amazing. By that stage, we'd cancelled or certainly postponed the wedding, I should say. We'd contacted all the wedding suppliers, they were really, really good. And I had this conversation with Peter in the hospital, and he said, I still want to get married on February the 9th.

SPEAKER_00 15:31

Was Peter uh completely mentally stable or was uh uh in terms of like drugs or things like that?

SPEAKER_02 15:40

Yeah, when he was in critical care, he was obviously he was unconscious for a lot of he doesn't obviously that whole period he was um uh unconscious at that stage that he was basically on life support. Uh but once he regained consciousness and he was you know able to talk and he hadn't realized he was like, How long have I been here? So, yeah, so he'd said he wanted to get married, and I was thinking, oh my god, how am I how are we gonna do this? So I ended up speaking to the doctors, ended up speaking to some other people at the hospital, and they said, We're gonna organize a hospital ceremony here at St. Vincent's Hospital. We've never done this before, but we're gonna it's it's gonna happen. So it was amazing. So basically, we went ahead with our wedding in the hospital. Peter was in a wheelchair, it was done in a little room inside the hospital. We had our bridal party there. Got some photos from that day. It was it was a really, really special day. We took our vows, and when we finished the ceremony, Peter had to go back to his room. It had worn him out. I was there with our friends. We went uh over the road and um had a couple of drinks, and and one of them gave me a lift home, and I was just at home on my own. It was so bizarre, it was such an awful feeling because I'm like, I've just gotten married, my husband's in hospital. So the next day I drove to the hospital to see him and I started having a panic attack. Um, but by that stage I was at the hospital. I was just feeling really on edge. I was just overwhelmed. I went in to see him. He was so happy to see me. I literally was able to stay for about five minutes, and then I was like, I'm sorry, I've got to go. And he's like, What's wrong? But he knew enough about what the struggles that I'd been through, and he said, just go straight home, just go straight home. I could not get home. I don't, I don't even remember the trip home, but I just started was just having this awful, awful anxiety. And I got home and I just got into bed and I was just like, yeah, it was just this was happening constantly. These panic attacks were happening constantly. So what ended up happening then was Peter eventually came out of hospital. He came out of hospital maybe after about five or six weeks. So we then went and reorganized our wedding day, even though we were already married, so it became a renewal of our vows and we were able to go ahead with our wedding day as planned in April, which was lovely. So we had the full, the full church wedding, the full reception. So that was a miracle. It was. I honestly it was a miracle that that even got to that stage. So that was in 2002 that we got married. So 2002, going into 2003, he was pretty stable, thank God, after everything that we'd been through. 2003 was when we started on our IVF journey, and I fell pregnant, and uh our baby was due at the end of March. I finished work because I was working in, as I said, in sales and marketing roles at that stage. I finished work, went on maternity leave. I had basically seven weeks before she was our baby was due, didn't know it was a girl at that stage. And I went into premature labor at home and ended up going to the local hospital. It was clear that I was in labor. They had to send me down to Sydney, so I had to go down to Sydney. So I ended up giving birth to our daughter prematurely, seven weeks premature. And guess what date she was born on? February the ninth.

SPEAKER_00 19:29

Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_02 19:31

The funny thing is, in the lead up to it, when I when I went into labor, like which was just such a shock, like it was so unexpected. I'd literally just finished work. And a day or two after I finished work, I went into labor. And it was really like I remember saying, Oh my god, February the 9th. I think by this stage it was February the 7th or something. And obviously the hospital tried to stave off um the birth. They gave me sort of uh these um steroids to try and sort of slow down labor. Anyway, gave birth to our daughter and it was February the 9th. So there's that date again, February the 9th. So we got engaged on February the 9th. We ended up going ahead with our wedding in the hospital on February the 9th, and our daughter was born on February the 9th, seven weeks early. So that's so crazy. It was, it was really crazy. So when I had our daughter, um, as I said, uh Peter was pretty stable at that point. I was working, so I was on maternity leave. And like many first-time parents, I really didn't have a clue what I was doing and really struggled with her sleep. So up until this stage, as I said, I'd worked in sales and marketing roles. I was in the video games industry, actually. So worked for Nintendo and I can't wait to do that. I had no idea that about you. I know. That's what a lot of people are like, well, hang on, how did we go from that into sleep? And it was quite the life pivot, I have to say, or the career pivot, I should say. But I struggled with her sleep massively, and I really, yeah, there was, you know, there's a couple of books out there. We didn't obviously didn't have um, there was a couple of websites, but a few weeks, a few months into it, I was really struggling with sleep deprivation, and I knew that I needed help. Like I was, it was just awful, it was crippling. I ended up going to Tristillion at that stage, which is a basically a government-funded sleep school here in um Sydney. I know that a few of the other states in Australia also have something similar. And that was kind of life-changing because when I came back from Tristillion, I stayed there for a week and came home and realized that so much of the information that I didn't know at the start, I wish I'd known what basically I had been taught at Tresillion. So when I came back from Tristillion, I had she was sleeping well, and I was like, my God, why didn't I know this from the day one? And I so I took a real interest in baby sleep at that stage. And a lot of my friends were having babies at the same time and they were struggling with sleep.

unknown 21:59

And so

SPEAKER_02 22:00

Suddenly I became this kind of like this, almost like this little baby sleep guru. They would be ringing me saying, Oh, can you help me with this? And I was helping them just from what I'd learned myself. So I eventually went back to work, finished maternity leave, but I was helping families. I had friends of uh friends of friends contacting me. So I was helping these families and I really, really enjoyed it. I really, really enjoyed it. So Peter's illness was progressing. Uh our our daughter was a couple of years old at this point, and we decided that we wanted to try again for another baby. So we went through IVF. Around about this time, though, so I'm gonna say this was around 2007, his health took another decline. And his doctors spoke to me and said, this is really starting to progress now, the pulmonary hypertension, you know, which is basically right, heart failure is starting to really progress at this point in time. I was still working full-time. And he hadn't been able to work for many, many years. So I was the sort of the sole income earner at that stage. And I said to them, I am thinking I need to leave the workforce to basically be with him full-time. And they basically said to me, Yes, that's probably what needs to happen now. So that was a really tough period because essentially I, you know, was on a very good income at that stage and made the decision in consultation with Peter that that I was going to leave the workforce and effectively become his carer, his full-time carer, because by this stage things were really, really progressing. So that was in 2007. So I left the workforce. We still had, as I said, we decided that we wanted to try again for another child, but I knew that we knew that his illness was progressing. So we went through another couple of rounds of IVF and then we got down to the sort of the point where we said, okay, well, if it doesn't work this time, that's it. And I ended up falling pregnant. So that was in 2000 and end of 2007, I fell pregnant, which was amazing. You know, we were so thrilled. Um, the pregnancy went well, however, however, I think it was at the 24 or 25 week mark. I had gone along for a root for a routine scan. I had been considered a high-risk pregnancy because my previous pregnancy, I had been premature. Everything had been going fine, and I went in for the scan at about 24-25 weeks. And when I went in for the scan, I could see the look on the lady's face who was doing the uh the scan, and she called another doctor in. And I'm thinking, oh God, what's going on here? And came in and they were discussing, and they said, Marion, we're gonna have to admit you to hospital. And I'm like, and Peter was with me and was like, What's wrong? And I said, Your service cervix is funneling open and you're about to go into labor.

SPEAKER_00 25:03

Oh gosh. Were you still experiencing panic attacks at this stage as well?

SPEAKER_02 25:09

No, they'd probably settled down. They were they were definitely there for about 18 months. So no, by this stage, they had pretty much disappeared by this stage, which was good. I'd I'd needed a lot of basically therapy through that whole process. Saw a psychologist weekly, ended up having three or four months off work, as I said. So yeah, that was a really awful time. But no, by this stage, I'd I'd overcome that. I've been, you know, that that hadn't been an issue for a good couple of years by that stage. So yeah, so basically I got admitted to hospital up here on the Central Coast, and they monitored me for a couple of days, and they said, we're gonna have to send you down to Sydney. So an ambulance took me down to Sydney, and I arrived at Royal North Shore Hospital, and they said you're going to be on um hospital bed arrest for the remainder of the pregnancy. Oh no. And I just couldn't believe it because they said you are at risk of going into labor any tick of the clock, and we basically need to stay here. So Peter was at home. Our daughter was, she would have been about three by that stage. So yeah, I basically spent the next basically the remainder of my pregnancy on bed rest. By the time it got to about, I got to about 32 weeks. So I'd been in hospital for six or seven weeks. I just was climbing the walls, I just wanted to go home. And they said, we can't let you go back to the central coast. However, my parents lived not too far, or they lived in Sydney, and they basically allowed me to go home to my parents' place, but to stay on bed rest. And I took that opportunity because I just wanted to get, I'd been in hospital for weeks and weeks and weeks. Go insane. Absolutely. I couldn't, like, even to go to the toilet, I would go to the toilet, have to come straight back. I literally, they and they were really strict with it. So I ended up staying at my parents' place at that stage. And that was tricky because Peter was basically looking after our daughter at that stage. Um, and he managed that very well, but also he had his own issues. I I was it was a it was a difficult time. I'm so lucky that I have supportive family. My parents were great. So ended up having my our son Tyrone. I got to 37 or 38 weeks, went into labor. So the rest the rest of the pregnancy went well. I didn't go into premature labor, but had I not had that scan, they actually said to me, You literally would have been in labor within a couple of days, and that would have been a really significant situation because that was 24 or 25 weeks at that stage. So had our son Tyrone in uh 2008. Another miracle. Another miracle, absolutely, absolutely. So 2008, by this stage, Peter's illness was was really, yeah, it was it was it was getting quite bad, to be honest. He was in hospital more than he was at home. I was managing looking after our daughter and our and our son, and as well as looking after Peter as well. So in 2010, uh, this was a really awful year. So 2010, my son was two, and our daughter would have been six at that stage. And it was really clear that just, you know, Peter was hardly ever at home. He was spending weeks at a time in hospital. He was more frail. There were so many things going on with him. Um, he ended up with really brittle bones. Um, he had sort of osteoarthritis. We had an oxygen machine at home as well. I was, you know, in my role as carer for him, um, was even having to help him with showering and toileting. And it was just, and and for him, he was a very proud man. So it was really hard to see. I guess he he was explaining it to me that he was losing his dignity. And I, you know, I just really felt for him, and it was just so tough. And our our children were, you know, seeing this as well. He was very close to both of his children. Our daughter had a very close relationship with him because he was, you know, from the time that she was born, he was pretty much there full-time with her. So 2010, um, yeah, ended up being in hospital a lot. He went into hospital later that year. It was in uh September, and he was really unwell. He was going to respiratory failure, and he was in hospital for about three weeks at that stage. And then I was at home, I was going down to see him. Lots of friends were helping out looking after the kids while all that was going on. And then he was due to come out of hospital, and his friends had said, we want to basically uh take him to lunch, you know, a couple of days. Because he he, I think the thing to understand with someone who's got illness, um, you know, illness is such a big part of their life, it's it's really all consuming. And so a lot of the time that's all you're talking about, you know, you know, friends, well-meaning friends, how's things going? Oh, what's happening with Peter? All they'll say to him, what's happening? And it just felt like, you know, you almost get defined by illness and the whole process. So his friends recognized that he was really down because he was very, you know, he had definitely had bouts of depression through all of this, of course, as you would understand. And they wanted to do something for him. They wanted to take him, you know, out for lunch. And I was remembering I was organizing to get a wheelchair because I knew that he wasn't able to get around. He had the oxygen machine. We'd kind of had it all planned. And then on the day that he was due to come home, I'd spoken to the hospital and they said, we're gonna organize a transport vehicle to bring him home so that you don't have to come down here. He'd spoken to our daughter that morning. She was at school, and basically we're going to have a little party that night for him when he got home. So I was very grateful to the hospital for organizing transport to bring him home. And I remember this day. So this is on the, I remember the day at 22nd of October. I was at home, I'd spoken to him. He was really looking forward to coming home. I heard a car pull up out the front, and it was the transport vehicle that brought him home. So I went out, the door opened, he was in the back seat. He said, Hello, sweetie, how are you going? And you know, he's a real jokester kind of thing. And I remember helping him out of the car and had his, he had like a walker. And the driver was helping us sort of walk back inside. And as we were walking inside, we were sort of talking, and suddenly he just something happened and he just kind of was clutching at his back. And he said, Oh my god, oh my god, I need to sit down, I need to sit down. And um, we had his walker, so I quickly turned the walker away. You know how the walker has the seat on there and sat him down, and then he kind of lost consciousness, and he just kind of slumped down into the walker, and I was like, Peter, like I was thinking, what the hell's going on? What the hell's going on? And I could tell that he wasn't breathing. So I was in an absolute panic. The driver was there. Um, I said, we've got to ring the ambulance. And I remember thinking, it's funny the things that you think in these moments. I'm thinking, oh, he's gonna have to go back to hospital again. You know, I I knew that he wasn't conscious, but I was thinking about all these practical things. Oh, he's gonna have to go back to hospital. We'll ring an ambulance. Rang the ambulance, and they were saying, you know, is he going through the whole process? Is he breathing? I said, he's not breathing. And they said we need to lay him down flat, all the processes that you need to go through. I couldn't move him. And the driver was trying to help me. By the time we actually got him laid down, by this stage I could hear the ambulance coming. In the meantime, because we where we lived was on a uh public, quite a public sort of street. A lot of traffic went past, and by this stage, a lot of passers-by had stopped and we're getting out of a car, and the ambulance turned up and he was still unconscious, so he hadn't regained consciousness, he wasn't breathing, and they started working on him. And I remember just sitting there with complete strangers around me, these lovely, lovely people who had stopped to help. And I remember just looking, I was just such a surreal scene because I remember seeing the paramedics working on him, and I was just looking around and I'm thinking, I don't know any of these people. Who are these people? But I was so grateful, but I just wanted to see a familiar face.

SPEAKER_00 33:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:51

And I rang my one of my very, very close friends. She was at work, and I said to her, something's happened. She ended up ringing her husband, who was um in the area at the time. She was coming, but she had a long way to travel to get there. And he arrived, and I was just so grateful to set like a familiar face. And so all of this was a very public setting. It was literally in our front lawn. And they worked on him, worked on him, worked on him. And I just knew, well, I didn't, I knew that things weren't good because he just hadn't moved. And then one of the senior paramedics came over and said, I need to take you inside, and took me inside and sat me down and said, I'm really sorry to tell you that your husband has passed away. And I remember we had a clock in our lounge room, and I remember I could hear the ticking of the clock, and it sounded really loud, this ticking sound. That's all I could hear. And I said, What like, what do you mean? What do you mean? And he said, I'm I'm sorry, we've done everything we can, but he's passed away. And I was just like, but I was just talking to him, and it was just a it was just such a surreal moment. And I remember all I wanted to do was I wanted to go and see him. By this stage they'd put him into the ambulance and I said to them, Can I just can I just see him? And they said, Of course, of course, come in. And I sat down and sat next to him, and it was just I just I was talking to him as if he was going to talk back to me. And I said, What just happened? Like what what's happened? I was just, yeah, it was just an awful, surreal moment, but I sat with him and just sat there for five minutes and then came out and yeah, went back into the house. And by this stage, my friends had arrived.

SPEAKER_00 35:52

Um I don't even know what to say right now. I'm holding back the tears, to be honest. I hadn't heard that part of the story before.

SPEAKER_02 36:04

I think, you know, in hindsight, uh the progression of his illness, he was I knew that he was in what they call the end stages of his illness. I'd never spoken to the doctors, and he didn't want me to. And he said to the doctors all along, don't talk to Marianne about prognosis and how long. Because at the end of the day, you know, with this illness, it's a very serious illness. And but a lot of the people that would have pulmonary hypertension are older people. You know, it's not such a common thing for younger people. But so whenever I would sort of try and speak to him or speak to them, it was always, we don't know, it's a it's a progressive illness kind of thing. But I knew that he was in the end stages of his illness. But on that particular day when he was coming home, the suddenness, like it was just so unexpected. So unexpected.

SPEAKER_00 37:01

So that's that that's do you think Peter was told that he was coming home to go?

SPEAKER_02 37:10

It's really interesting you say that because I don't think he was told that, but a couple of his friends that I've spoken to about this feel like he might have known that and he was coming home. Like the most important thing to me, even though it was such a public situation and setting that happened which was just horrifying. He was home. He was home. That's what I was going to say before. He was home, and I was, you know, I was with him. Um so if it had happened in hospital, which there was a very high chance at any stage with any of these incidents that happened with his illness throughout, that he could have passed away in in a hospital setting, which, you know, that would have been awful. And I know that that happens every day with people, you know, that they're not actually with their loved ones when they pass away. So in a way, like it kind of suits Peter down to a T because, you know, he was such an outgoing kind of a person, but I just remember thinking he was home and I was I was there, and we were having a conversation. So when he actually collapsed um and and sort of died, we were we were talking.

SPEAKER_00 38:22

Um so it's almost as though he held on until he could get home and and see you, and the way you still vividly remember that memory of him saying, Hey sweetie, when you opened up the vehicle door. I remember for a moment you remember forever.

SPEAKER_02 38:40

I will, I remember it exactly what he said, hi sweetie, I'm home.

SPEAKER_00 38:44

And um, yeah, so from there it was uh It sounds like you were honestly such an angel throughout such a really uh I don't even know the the right word for it. I'm I'm almost lost for words to be honest. So such a scary and uncertain and um many years really time in your life uh for you and for Peter and you being the strong one, but him also protecting you during that time, not wanting the doctors to let you know exactly what was going on because he wanted to protect you and your emotional state. And that's just such a big role that you played, you know, being a wife and a carer and a mum to two young children. I can't imagine the strength that that you know had during that entire time. I I don't know how many people would do it, to be honest, without breaking down completely. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 39:57

That's really lovely words, Tara. I think I think it's one of those things you don't plan for, you don't expect. But you know, sometimes people had said to me early on in the relationship, oh, it's so lovely of you to stay. This was before we were married, I'm talking about it so lovely of you to to stay by his side. I'm like, you can't, you know, I mean love, you know. It wasn't even a question. It wasn't even a question. No, and and I I honestly don't think it would have been for anyone who was in a committed loving relationship. I guess, you know, I was a bit naive at the start, but when I say naive, I didn't realise the complexity of the situation. But also he hadn't opened up to me at that stage. So when he did, we were kind of like a team, you know.

SPEAKER_00 40:40

For sure.

SPEAKER_02 40:40

How we managed it.

SPEAKER_00 40:41

So he was very lucky to have you, and you were very lucky to have him at same. You're both very lucky to have one another. And although he's not with us here today, I I do want to ask how, if if at all, uh have you kept Peter's memories alive for your children because they were so young when this happened. Yeah. As you said, your daughter was very much close with Peter. She was.

SPEAKER_02 41:09

We so I was lucky enough to find love again and met my second husband and we got married in 2016. What was really important to me, you know, I wasn't necessarily looking for love again, that's for sure. It was just such a difficult period when he did pass away, and you know, once the funeral was over, everyone goes back to their lives and and suddenly you're just there. And I one of the things I was adamant was that we were always going to keep his memory alive. My daughter has memories of her dad. She was six when he passed away. My son, not so much, he was only two when his when his dad passed away. So I was really adamant that we were never going to stop talking about Peter. And there were so many stories about Peter from family, friends. As I said, he was just such a big personality. He had a great sense of humor, he was a real storyteller. And it was really important to me to just continue talking about him. I had lots of photos, I had lots of video footage, had video footage of our wedding, and would have conversations with the kids all the time about that. So it was very important to me when I did meet my uh second husband, who was absolutely he had to step into a stepfather role. He had children of his own as well. And he was so supportive of all of that. And I knew in my heart that if there was, if I'd met someone who had an issue with that, then I was going to be with that person. 100%. So we talk about him all the time. And the great thing is that his friends, his very close friends, are still very important people in our life, in our life, all of us actually. And um, they're always talking to the kids stories of their dad. You know, a lot of these friends have known him since he was very, very young. So they've got some great stories of their dad from teenagers and whatnot. Yeah, so we never stopped talking about him. And in fact, on my wedding day, my second wedding, we got married in 2016. We had a candle lit with Peter's name on it. That's the case. That was at the reception.

SPEAKER_00 43:31

Yeah, and that was just burning. That's such a beautiful idea with the candle at your second wedding. Yeah, it was actually. I'm sure Peter would have been very happy to see you marrying someone that was so happy to take on stepchildren and be such a significant role model in their life.

SPEAKER_02 43:51

He has been. He's been an incredible support for them, and they, you know, that they're very, very close with. With with him, and I'm so grateful. And I know that Peter would be as well to have this man come into their lives and become their stepfather. So very, very, yeah, very thankful.

SPEAKER_00 44:12

I'm very glad that that was you you did have a a happy outcome, even though it was very different to what you had envisioned earlier in life. You did find happiness again. Yes, and Peter will always live on in your memories and in your heart and your children. So that would have been very special to have him there with you on that day as well. I will just uh bring it back to now. So now you have married your second husband. Yes. You have children now. Yes. The two beautiful children are almost one's an adult, one's almost an adult. Correct. Which we mentioned in our introduction episode. Yeah. And now you created a business out of your experience from when you were struggling with your life. Absolutely. Yeah. I want to hear a little bit about that.

SPEAKER_02 45:05

Yeah. So at that time, as I said, I was helping families, and uh at that stage when I when Beth, my daughter, was very, very young. And I just knew I could see that everyone around me was struggling with sleep. And when I had to leave the workforce to become Peter's full-time carer, I made a decision that if I was to return, well, I knew that I was going to return to work at some stage. I just didn't know when at that point. When Peter passed away, I was sort of in a bit of a bit of a darkness there for a few months. And then a friend of mine, I started to do some work for her. She owns a PR business and I was just doing some part-time work for her. But it was at that time that I decided that I really wanted to properly start up a baby sleep consulting business. I had such a passion for it, I knew there was a demand for it, I knew that people were struggling. So I did my studies and officially started up the business. So this was probably in around 2012, 2013. And that's what I've been doing ever since. I've it's it's been a thriving business. I absolutely love working with families and helping them. And I remember because I went through the experience, even though it was a long time ago, I just remember the sheer sort of the just the sleep deprivation and how crippling that was and how exhausting that was. And so I I like I think about it now, and I can remember those days. I remember I was up for hours overnight. I got to the stage where I was just almost having these like mini rages because I was just so exhausted. So I know what it means for families to get the right support and the right help. And that's what I've been doing ever since, and I absolutely love it. So it was an absolute career pivot, as I said, for me, because prior to that, all of my roles had been in corporate world, all of my roles had been sales and marketing. I was in the video games industry, I worked for Nintendo for seven years as their business development manager. So this was a complete life change for me, but it was something that I was just deeply passionate about, and it just felt right.

SPEAKER_00 47:15

Well, thank God for that because you helped me, especially when I needed it. And I'm sure hundreds of other families, not only on the coast but everywhere, you have created a very successful business and uh a very positive name for yourself, especially for mums and dads, I say, for dads as well. And that's actually how we met. It is how we met. Like I said before. How long ago was that? I think it was 14 months ago. A bit longer. I can't remember now. I honestly can't remember. Yeah. My brain shot at the moment. I did just have a few questions that I'll ask though. What's the biggest thing you've learned working as a sleep consultant for families?

SPEAKER_02 48:02

The biggest thing I've learned is probably that the baby sleep industry is not set up to sort of to support families adequately. And what I mean by that is when I first started, when even when I first had my uh baby at the start, there was, you know, back then there was a few books, there was a couple of websites. Sleep was still hard, but it was much simpler back then. And what's now happened, because it's a totally unregulated industry, pretty much anyone can call themselves a baby sleep expert. And what it means for families is that they are having to navigate this very overwhelming and confusing space where there is so much information out there, a lot of it conflicting, a lot of misinformation. They're now having to navigate social media. There is so much online, there are influences online, you know, parenting influences, so many different belief systems around sleep, so many different approaches and methodologies. And what it means for families is there's no consistency in the education at all. So it's not supporting families, it's not setting them up for success from the start. And parents are ending up, you know, navigating all of this and going down a million different pathways. And I I just the baby sleep world is becoming a more convoluted and overwhelming space more and more and more, and it's just not helpful for families because I've always believed that there should be some kind of government initiative for families where there is a consistent education program or resource that is uh made available to every single family giving birth in Australia, but it's a consistent education uh program. That would be so helpful because uh sleep in itself is a very practical process, but uh it's become a very emotional uh process. There's a lot of sensitivity around it as well. It's a very difficult conversation to have with families as well, because that they can feel it that that's sort of a critique on their parenting skills. So, yeah, so it's just not set up. The the the industry is not set up to support families adequately.

SPEAKER_00 50:18

Thank you for answering that. And one more thing. What it could be a little funny or cheeky answer. What's the number one thing that mums do wrong when it comes to sleep? Oh, put me on the spot. I'm putting you right on the spot. This could this could be detrimental to your business, actually. But do you know what?

SPEAKER_02 50:41

It's I honestly say, and I mean this, every parent out there is doing their absolute bloody best, you know. I think probably the thing I would say is that parents are waiting far too long to seek help because there's a lot of narrative out there that says you're such a tame answer, Mary Ann. Oh, I'm being no. Well, it's so true because people that are that are struggling with with sleep and they're told, wait till your baby's four months of age, wait till your baby's six months of age, you shouldn't do anything for the first six months. It is the worst advice because we know the effects of sleep deprivation and how that's a real tipping point for so many families into, you know, with their mental health. So I would honestly say it's not that they're doing anything wrong, but I what I would say is to there's plenty of help and support out there, and don't feel like you have to just battle on for months and months and months before seeking help. The earlier that you seek help, honestly, the better because it's for your own sanity and and state of mind as well. So that's my answer.

SPEAKER_00 51:50

Oh, thank you. Well, I just want to say thank you so much for sharing your story. I know there were a lot of deep moments there and a big journey to talk about and reflect on. So thank you for being vulnerable. You're very welcome. Letting us all know a little bit deeper inside of who you are and what you've been through. And I think it just gives our audience a bit of context when you, you know, we discuss topic certain topics about where your angle's coming from.

SPEAKER_02 52:24

Yeah, thank you. And I think it's I I enjoyed it. It's not often I talk about that. I don't really share much of anything about my personal life on social media. It is all the baby sleep stuff. So yeah, it's been quite a journey to go back and think about all of that again. But yeah, thank you for you for your questions. Now, what are we doing now? Tara, we're coming to that stage of the episode. What's on our mind? And because I've been so doing the talking this episode, I'm gonna hand over to you what's been on your mind.

SPEAKER_00 52:56

Okay, I do have one which has been on my mind for quite some time. My husband and I actually discuss it quite often. It's something other people would have discussed as well, but I just want to talk about it. Why do so many dogs look like their owners? Oh yes, this is a thing, isn't it? Yeah. This is a thing. Or like their personality is like their owner. Because yeah, I just if you you're driving your car and you look at someone walking their dog and you go, oh my god, that dog looks like their owner. How often do we do that?

SPEAKER_02 53:29

Uh often, it's so funny you say that. I actually follow this person on social media. Uh anyway, long story short, he's got two dogs and he's a he's a bit of a comedian, and he looks exactly like they're they're like a they're not a greyhound, but they're that type of a breed. And he's got this really long angular face. And a few people have made comments because I noticed it.

SPEAKER_00 53:50

I'm saying, I wonder if he actually knows that he looks like he's he's we just are we attracted to dogs that are going to look like us, like that type of breed? Maybe, maybe it is a subconscious thing. Maybe so what so what it what dog dogs do you have? Well, I have Poppy. She's just like an anxious little, more like a cat that lays on the bed all day. She's very lazy, but we definitely do she's a bit of a sluice. Like she'll she'll just like kind of always be looking out what's happening around her, and she'll peek like one eye behind cupboards and just always watching you. Is that what you do? I must say it is what I do. I I have to be very aware of my surroundings. Yep.

SPEAKER_02 54:34

And so it's not just the physicality, it's the it's the personality traits as well.

SPEAKER_00 54:40

I think I think a bit of both, yeah. To be honest. Yep, yep. Yeah, and then Matt has Stormy, which she's a German shepherd. So Pop's a toika voodle, and then Matt has uh Stormy, she's a German shepherd, and she's she's a bit crazy, she's a bit unpredictable. And Matt is very much like that. However, he has tamed himself, but I'm sure on the inside he's still got that crazy little streak. Yeah, and that's her. What do you think Matt enjoys about Stormy? I think he loves the companionship. And I think he gets a bit anxious in fatherhood when it comes to young children or even any children at all. He he never really he second questions himself. He doesn't know the way to go about things, so he heavily relies on my opinion or my advice or me to lead the way. So I think when it comes to Stormy, she's totally his whole responsibility. And I think he really enjoys that he gets to well, I wouldn't say control, but he decides all the decisions, decisions for her and and she's just a constant in his life, like it keeps him steady, maybe? Yeah, I'd say so. I think yeah, I think she brings him a lot of joy and he really loves hanging out with her and he puts a lot of effort into Stormy. You may have seen on his socials, what he feeds her, and I think it's almost I don't know, I shouldn't talk on behalf of all parents, but I'd say as a mum, I want Summer to be kind of like a reflection of me. Yes. The best parts of me only. And I think Matt, in a way, wants Stormy to kind of be a reflection of him.

SPEAKER_02 56:24

Yeah, absolutely. Our dogs, I'm dogs are such an important part of our lives for those of us that are dog lovers. But it is really funny what you've said, because I've thought that myself about how dogs are similar, either in their physicality or in their traits.

SPEAKER_00 56:38

Like you said, like a greyhound, it could be the way the owner's face is shaped or racial expressions, you know, a bulldog and their owner, not to say someone looks like a bulldog, but you know, they might be, you know, very muscular and have that type of rounded head. It's just without being too harsh. I think it's a very funny topic, and Matt and I discuss it all the time. So I thought that's what popped into my mind when you said what's on your mind.

SPEAKER_02 57:02

I'm sure that many of us, many of our listeners will have noticed the same thing. So thank you for sharing that with us, Tara. That was a good one. All right, everyone. Well, thank you for joining us, and we look forward to seeing you again next time on Lived. Bye for now.

unknown 57:15

Bye.