LIVED - Mat Steinwede: Addiction

This week we’re joined by Mat Steinwede for a powerful and honest conversation about addiction, recovery, resilience, and the lessons learned along the way.

In this episode we dive into a topic that impacts so many people and families, and hear Mat’s insights, experiences, and perspective.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:06

Hello and welcome to our podcast lift. I'm Mary Ann Sayers. And I'm Tara Steinwade. Today we have an amazing guest for this episode. Joining us will be one of Australia's most successful real estate agents, a highly respected business mentor, and a passionate advocate for health, well-being, fitness, and personal growth.

SPEAKER_02 0:32

And Tara's husband.

SPEAKER_00 0:33

And Tara's husband. I was getting to that. You might know each other. But no, it's great to have you on. Matt Stonewaite, welcome to our podcast.

SPEAKER_02 0:41

Thanks, Marianne. It's good to be here. Tara.

SPEAKER_00 0:44

Hi.

SPEAKER_04 0:45

Hello. We'll get straight into it.

SPEAKER_02 0:48

Straight into it.

SPEAKER_04 0:48

So today we're going to cover the topic of addiction. In Matt's case, you were a drug addict in your early years of life. So I thought it was a good one. It's relatable to many people. People could relate it to smoking addiction, vaping addiction, sex addiction, work addiction.

SPEAKER_02 1:09

Yeah. Well, I'm still going there.

SPEAKER_04 1:13

So I'll I'll just ask my first question. So do you see similarities between drug addiction and things like work addiction, gambling, social media, sex or alcohol?

SPEAKER_02 1:26

Yeah, I think addiction, people actually like it. So they talk about it like it's some disease, but you're doing it because you like it. So it's very hard to get away from that feeling. Like, you know, with the drug thing, uh like it starts off a few pills and a few nights out and things like that. But you get used to, like, you chase that feeling of, oh, that was a great night, I'll do it again. The best part of the drug thing is just as you're having them, not during the night or after. It's the excitement around either the first injection or the first line of whatever it is. That's the best part. So people chase that quite often.

SPEAKER_00 2:09

And I do want to find out a little bit about your experience because I think you know, you would have such profound insights into the whole addiction experience. Can you take us back? I know you've shared your story a lot, um, though, but for the benefit of those listeners who don't know your story, can you take us back to perhaps your earlier years and when it all started? And I guess how it all started as well, if you if you're able to share that.

SPEAKER_02 2:32

Yeah, it just started gently. You know, a girl came up to me at Maruba Beach one day and said, Would you like to come out to or come out with me to Oxford Street? I didn't even know where Oxford Street was. And um, I said, Uh, I don't know, what's in there? She said, Oh, there's these clubs, we've been going there for the last few weeks, and and uh come in. So I did, and she and I'd taken a little bit of speed before then, but I'd only ever been at Maroubra. And so we took some pills, party, she wasn't my girlfriend or anything, and then best night ever, like the best. And we were laying in the middle of Oxford Street looking up at the stars, just uh her name was Tanya on the medium strip. So you go from one club, which is called Biblos, and then you go to another one called DC until the next day. So I was in between those clubs, and I said to Tanya, this is the best night I've ever had in my life. I'm never going back to the beach. And I just didn't. I just literally gave up surfing and then started partying. And that's sort of how it starts, you know, a little bit of this and a little bit of that, and then over time it went from taking pills, snorting not so much coke because couldn't afford it, but um speed and then injecting it and then runaway train.

SPEAKER_00 3:51

And do you realize at the time, like just sort of reflecting back on that, do you when you're in that, are you recognizing that you're falling into that, into that addiction, or you're sort of your thinking is just all about the hit itself and you're not really recognizing what's happening to you as a person going into that?

SPEAKER_02 4:08

Pretty much. You just sort of get more extreme and more extreme because it goes from going out on Saturday night to going out. I remember the first night I went out all night. I like looked in the mirror in the club when the lights came on at seven or eight in the morning, and I was like, I look terrible. I looked awful, but I'd never been out all night because at Maruba the clubs close at two or something. And then that became sort of normal, you know, going out to sit because I used to, after a while, I used to go to the clubs and then come out, walk into Oxford Street at sort of eight in the morning, 7:30, 8 in the morning, and all these people going to work on a Monday, because you go out Saturday, Sunday. I'm like, where are all these people going? Like, they all look so serious, and we've been out all weekend. Just gets a bit more and a bit more like that, it becomes more normal. And then going out Tuesday nights and then Friday nights, and then all of a sudden you're so deep in that party scene that that just becomes life, you know, and then you start drug dealing to support your habit, and then you know, yeah, you're stuck in it. So it's I don't think people realise how gently it actually happens.

SPEAKER_04 5:20

And it just spirals.

SPEAKER_02 5:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 5:21

When you were quite deep into the addiction, when you were off your head um during that moment, do you ever have a thought thinking I need to get off the drugs? Or is that only a sober thought?

SPEAKER_02 5:36

Yeah, never. It's just the coming down thought.

SPEAKER_04 5:38

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:39

If you've been out, I used to sleep on Wednesdays in the end. So I just stay out all weeks. And then um no, but even on Wednesdays, I used to take some so many rohitnols or Xenex, so I just slept the whole day and night anyway. But then sometimes you think, oh, this is not that great, but then you're just straight back onto it again. So I didn't know. I never really thought I shouldn't I should be doing something better than this or not great.

SPEAKER_04 6:06

And do you think for people that become drug addicts, is that in your opinion a bad childhood with parents that aren't really giving them direction, or where do you think it stems from?

SPEAKER_02 6:21

I don't know. I think it's actually a superpower. I do. Because if they learn to channel it, like our daughter, Summer, has this thing where she is so focused on what she wants to do, you can't tell her nothing. So if she channels that, uh, fortunately she's got a great mum, but if she channels it well, she'll be very successful. But it's I think it's this thing, you just don't know how to channel it properly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:50

And for you, was this happening over months, over years? Like how long were you in the grips of the addiction for?

SPEAKER_02 6:58

I think years.

SPEAKER_00 7:00

Right.

SPEAKER_02 7:00

Yeah, I think years.

SPEAKER_00 7:02

And what was it like, like when you were at sort of rock bottom? Because I feel like there's this, as you said, this gentle kind of descent that happens, that happens, and then does it kind of just spiral and you're just at rock bottom?

SPEAKER_02 7:14

No, no, you sort of end up there and you live there for quite a while. And then but nothing matters to you. Life doesn't matter to you. You know, the cost of it doesn't matter to you. It just ends up food doesn't matter to you, you're like you're unhealthy. It just all that matters to you is the next exciting thing.

SPEAKER_00 7:34

Right.

SPEAKER_02 7:35

No, so it's uh but it went for a long time. Like we talk about it like, you know, I was a drug addict and then I ended up homeless and then got into real estate. But that was like over years, yeah. You know, and then you attract those you you know, yeah, you attract those sorts of people as well. So you end up hanging around people that are like worse and worse and worse and worse. But then now I understand vibration as well. That's why drug addicts' lives fall apart, because there's a there's a a scale, um Dr. David Hawkins, he's a kinesiologist, and uh he's he wrote the book called Power versus Force, and he has a vibrational scale in there, and he does he has in kinesiology you you can measure muscle resistance, and he's done everything uh between naught yeah, naught and a thousand. So Jesus Christ is a thousand, truth starts at two hundred, and he's done uh thousands and thousands of he's he's like in his eighties, this guy. Thousands and thousands of muscle resist resistance tests on all different topics. So um drugs create a feeling of bliss, and bliss is 600 on that scale. But drugs themselves vibrate, I don't know the number, but it's like 86 or 92 or something underneath truth. So when you're coming down, your vibration would be everyone chases the bliss because you know when you take it, I mean, you've had a little bit here and there, Tara.

SPEAKER_00 9:14

It's like I don't think so.

SPEAKER_02 9:17

But when you're on it, you think you're fantastic, you know, all the worries in the world go away. You talk, you tell rubbish, you know, like, oh yeah, life's fantastic, I do this and I do that, and la la because you're in that state. But then when you're coming down, that's why people literally just you know can't deal with life, but you watch their life, their life follows majority mostly you're down in that sort of coming down stage, not up there. So your vibration in life um matches that. They lose their home, they you know, all these things happen to them. Yeah. Just look like on TikTok and stuff, look at the pictures of the meth addicts that start here. I don't know if you've seen those ones, but 10 years later they'll look terrible, sores in jail because their whole vibrational point goes to that. But they're chasing that 600 bliss feeling all the time. So it's really interesting thing. So why I say that is when I got out of it, and I relapsed many times. So don't think I just all of a sudden went, oh yeah, that's enough now. Like I relapsed time and time again. It wasn't until, I mean, even when I was with Tara, I took drugs again. Um, you know, it wasn't until like, I don't know, fifth almost 50, till I really developed the muscle. And I think it is a muscle, you know, to be able to not be tempted. Um but yeah, I look back when earlier, because I became a Mormon, and I do think having a belief in something helped a lot because it gave you a bit of a purpose, a bit of accountability. So I had no accountability in life at all, you know, even since I was a kid to zero. Um I look back and I I could see that the life that I lived in then, I just went from one drama, problem, crisis, you know, people after you, people not after you, things, you know, happening, whatever. All these problems, problems, problems. But when I started to understand energy, I could see why, because I was just vibrationally going lower and lower and lower on the scale.

SPEAKER_03 11:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 11:24

Do you think addictive tendencies ever completely disappear? Or in your experience now being 54, you say on your own podcast and on social media that you're the happiest you've ever been in life. What's stopping you now from those tendencies if they are still apparent?

SPEAKER_02 11:44

Well, I've built the muscle. So I think about, so it doesn't mean you never think about them, but I think about the downside now, not the upside. And it's taken a lot to develop that because, like Jackson had a problem with drugs, and he still would have a problem with drugs. Put him in the wrong environment, and he'll it'll a couple of hours and he'd be having a line of code. Because he got the impulse is so strong because it feels good, and you've got to develop that muscle. I could sit in a room full of drug addicts taking cocaine, well, I wouldn't touch it because the cost is too much. I understand the cost now, and I think that's what people need to develop if they've got a gambling problem. I get hundreds of messages from people with um addictive things and from parents, so many, so many. And I say to all of them, you can't do a thing. You you can't help an addicted person until they want to. Because if they don't want to, you can take them to every rehab you want. Well, look at rehabs, people go there like it's a holiday, come out and then on it again, and then if they don't want to, you've got to really want to. That's why sometimes rock bottom is the best thing that can ever happen to someone, ever. You know, and I say to parents, they write me big long things and I ring them up. I say, give me a call, and they're like, Oh, Breamans, right? No, gee. They ring me and say, I said, you can't do nothing. Just let them hit rock bottom, and they might not be there for quite a while yet, but you just gotta be there with them. You know, that's all you can do because until they want to, can't change it.

SPEAKER_04 13:17

For sure. And also, do you think recovery is more about stopping the behavior or completely becoming a different person?

SPEAKER_02 13:27

Um, having a purpose. I think recovery is having a purpose that that they value more than doing that. But you know, they're gonna fall off the wagon, they're gonna fall off, and it that's okay. But when they fall off, and then you know, it's like they don't it's what I mean about wanting to do it. You can fall off, but then you've got to get on and try again and keep getting getting on and trying again because if you've got a purpose that's bigger than you, like summer, summer now, I would never wake up. I would, I wouldn't even think to wake up and have you know a hangover it's not a hangover, but it's like we got but coming down from a bender and not being able to be fully present with her, like it it would, I would just wouldn't do it. So when you've got something that's more important, then you'll start to slowly shift, but not fully yet, if you've been living that way for a while.

SPEAKER_00 14:19

One of the things, I don't know if this is a general statement, I certainly don't mean it to be, but I think what I imagine with a lot of drug addicts or um whether it's gambling addiction or alcohol, there tends to be a lot of dishonesty and um sort of deception, not only with themselves, but with the people around them, because I feel like there's kind of two competing motivations. One that they're really wanting the thing that, you know, whatever it is, whether it's the drink or the drug or whatever. And then the other competing motivation I feel like is trying to protect their image or their reputation, or so therefore they're being deceptive. And I feel like there would be a lot of deception and um untruths as an addict, but then as part of the journey, when you come out the other side, all of that kind of falls away.

SPEAKER_02 15:09

Would that be you become really honest when you do that? Yeah, I think because you want it at all cost, you know, like I'd be shooting up in McDonald's's and to Ducky Frides and anywhere, like anywhere, at parties, like they just go in the bathroom and start shooting up, lock the door, pretend I'm in the shower, things like this. Like you just you just want it at all cost. But normal people don't understand that, and they know that. Like they sort of like that's why they lie, and that's why they, you know, just do all these weird things to go and get the drugs because people don't understand, you know, they just don't understand how strong that thing is, that pull. Yeah. And that the that's why people spend their last cent or borrow more to go do it, get it. There's no rational thinking, zero. It's just all emotional impulsive thinking.

SPEAKER_00 15:54

So for you, was there a specific moment like that? The start of the process for you sounds like that also went over a number of years and there was relapses throughout. But going back to the beginning, was there a moment that you remember part of your story that you remember where you're like, my God, I just I need to change, I need to turn this around.

SPEAKER_02 16:14

Yeah, when I was um when I um was at Dino's house when I left Sydney, and my mate just gave me a sort of room up here to stay. I was in there for nine months just shooting up drugs. Like he he had a lot of access to drugs. So I was um used to just shoot up just pure speed all day, and then I was after about nine months, uh not many people know this, but I just sat in a room drawing stick figure people for nine months.

SPEAKER_04 16:40

And Duncan.

SPEAKER_02 16:41

Duncan. So Duncan was a stick figure man, and I just used to, I was in a psychosis and I was just doing that for so long. And there was papers every I mean, you've got to ask Dino, don't ask me, but Dino just still today goes, man, what were you doing? Um and I was convinced Duncan was real. I was convinced, and they had a little helmet on, and I used to draw Duncan in cities and doing this, and uh anyway, I don't know what I was doing, but um after about nine months I rang an ex-girlfriend because I thought I've got to I've got to sort myself out. Like I used to just go roaming around the streets and just aimlessly with just no shirt on and all sorts of stuff, and um I said to Lisa, I got I'm you know, I'm in a bit of trouble, and she's like, Bit of trouble. She's like, Yeah, because I had people looking for me as well, and all these sorts of things. And um I said, What should I do? And she said, You should get into real estate. So that's how it all happened. And I just grabbed the yellow pages, which I don't know if they exist anymore, but I'm sure Tara probably doesn't know what it is.

SPEAKER_04 17:43

But I'm not that young.

SPEAKER_02 17:45

Yeah, I just took it literally and I just said I just rang everyone in the yellow pages on the central coast and I didn't know the areas or anything. Um, and I just said, Do you have a traineeship? And one lady gave me a job. One lady. Everyone else said no. And then I just walked the streets every day, knocking on doors, just asking him if they'd sell the house. So I did that, didn't have a car or anything. So Dino used to drive me to work, used to make my lunch. Uh off I went every day.

SPEAKER_04 18:09

Thank God for Dino.

SPEAKER_02 18:10

Thank God for Dino, yeah. So he's still my best mate today. Um, but that was one of the moments, and the other moment was, but I did party after that as well. Like I remember I got home one day and I was renting a room off uh my ex-wife, um, Karina's friend, this old lady, and I was good friends with bikers and all sorts of people, but um I got a call one day and they said, You're coming out with us. I said, No, no, I can't. I'm a Mormon now. They said, Nah, it's anti-Mormon night, you're coming out with us. So I was like, okay, and I rang Karina, I said, Oh, I'm going out with all the bikers around here. And then um she said, You can't, what do you mean? And uh I said, No, I'm going out. And she goes, Nah, I said, Don't worry, I'll just repent on Monday. Don't worry about it. And uh she's like, So I went out all weekend and then came back, and then like on Monday or something, and the and the room I lived in just had this single bed, this wooden single bed, and one wooden cupboard. And uh Tina, the old lady, just lived there on her own with a cat. And I'd I was just sideways, and I I was in there, and Karina's whole family comes over, standing around the bed, and I had my pillow on my face. I was just like dying. I was like, they're like, What are you doing? And anyway, so I ended up on Australia's Most Wanted, not far past that, and then had to hand myself back in, got arrested, and then went to court. And then fortunately, the judge gave me a second chance. But she said, if you come back again, you'll go away for half of your life. Of course, I was trying to turn my life around. But I walked out and rang Dino and I said, mate, I'm gonna make you a promise, I'm gonna become Australia's number one agent. And I think that was a big moment for me. Like uh doesn't mean I never took drugs again. When I got divorced twice, I went and party both times, but I think it was more stress-related, release related. The first wife's such a bitch, but no.

SPEAKER_04 20:04

I was like, We'll have to bleep that.

SPEAKER_02 20:09

But um, but yeah, I hadn't fully developed a muscle yet. But it took a long time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:16

Do you feel like relapse is an essential part of recovery?

SPEAKER_01 20:20

Yeah, for sure. Relapse is good. It's not a disease. I don't know what these people talk about.

SPEAKER_04 20:25

That was actually my next question.

SPEAKER_01 20:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 20:28

I wanted to say, in your opinion, do you think addiction is a disease, a coping mechanism, a symptom of pain, or something else?

SPEAKER_02 20:38

No, you just like it. You like it, you like it. That's people say it all the time, and I can talk about this. I people ride in, they go, I'm a psychologist, and they say, I don't care who you are. I I've taken more drugs than anybody that I know. Like one day I was in a in with some of the bikers and they were taking these drugs, and they just made all of this amazing speed. And then the guy goes, he said, dabs it like this, and he goes, I said, Oh, what's what's that? He goes, Oh, good, blah, blah, blah. I've got this speed. And I put as much into like a golf ball and ate it. And he goes, Mate, you're gonna kill yourself. He goes, You're gonna kill yourself that you don't know that's like pure this. I don't even worry about it. So I did another one again. And Dino's like, my goodness, mate. And the and I've taken so many drugs, I can't even tell you how many, like to the point where it's like red line plus whatever. So I have I'm pretty qualified in this area to talk about it. So it's um, but it's not a disease, like it's you're dealing with whatever, but you can blame anything. But the reality is I like being off my head. It made me feel better. Yeah, sure. If I had a different childhood or I had a different this, but I don't blame that now. Like I don't, I'm not, I don't have some drug disease now. Like it's not something that you just cure, it's just something you manage. But it's I think it's a personality trait because I like work and I do. Astara, you know, I work a lot. I work all the time. You know, I'd be happy just in a cave working all day. But it's like relationships make you better. And in am I great at relationships? I'm working on it, trying. But I will get really good at it. You know, I think that sort of personality is why people get addicted to stuff because they're just so obsessed in it.

SPEAKER_04 22:20

So you believe that's the case for everyone that has become an addict?

SPEAKER_02 22:24

Well, I do. I can only speak from my experience. Yeah, I do. You know, you can blame things, but you're making a choice.

SPEAKER_04 22:32

It's intriguing to me because I think about you still see kids that come from a very privileged life that become drug addicts. So it's not everything, but do you believe a child that is in a really loving family that is extremely nurtured and let's say they have an extremely good belief system and all their bubbles are filled in their life. You know, they've got a hobby, they've got good friends, they've got good family, you know, they've got ambition for their job, whichever part they're up to in their life, that someone like that with all of those things would still turn to drugs and become a drug addict.

SPEAKER_02 23:12

And drugs don't discriminate. I'll tell you the greatest rule in life, you become like who you hang around. Period. Period. I've got six other kids apart from Summer. They're all different. They're all different. One one was Jackson was a drug addict, Logan was well, he's not here now, but he turned to drugs later. Look who he started hanging around. Phoenix is a champion football player, he's in England playing now. Look who he hangs around. You just look at your people, you hang around. You'll become that, I'm telling you. So it's like, I look at me when I went to Oxford Street. I'd never been there before. But look what happened when I went there to with someone who went there, you know, and then I liked it. And so you just like, I want to do it more. If I just stayed at Marubra, I probably would have just been a tradesman living at Marubra, surfing every day. At Marubra, the greatest achievement you could have was get on the doll and surf every day. You're a legend if you could do that. Maybe I could have done that. But I think I think a lot of it is who you hang around. And then you sort of get into that world and you become that. And I don't care what anybody says about drugs, it's a choice.

SPEAKER_00 24:14

Well, that's leading to my next question: that at every point there's decisions being made.

SPEAKER_03 24:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:20

Whether you take the drug, whether you go back to that. So every part of that journey is a decision. And I guess because it I I I think it's probably a sensitive question, but maybe it doesn't need to be that addiction ultimately is a series of choices along the way and decisions along the way, the same as coming out of it is also a series of choices and decisions as well.

SPEAKER_02 24:40

Yeah. It's like food. Let's forget about drugs for a minute. Let's talk about food. You don't get fat just from drinking water. You get fat because you eat too many calories and your body doesn't know what to do with the energy and it just spills over. It's like that's what happens. But the food experience is what they're chasing. They're not chasing the fat, they're chasing the comfort of the you know, so it's a choice. So is being obese a disease or or is it a choice? It's the same thing. If they just didn't eat the food, they wouldn't be as fat. But you can blame your thyroid, you can blame whatever. You can blame the weather, you can blame where you live, whatever you like. But at the end of the day, it's a conscious choice to chase the feeling. There's a great saying in bodybuilding, chasing um, don't chase the dragon because you'll never get there. And it's because this illusion of this perfect thing, and it because your body changes so much. But whether it's food, porn, porn is the same. Porn is exactly the same. You know, but Tara Tara and I were talking about porn the other night. I don't look at porn anymore. I just don't have any interest in it. Because I I think it is sort of cheating.

unknown 25:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:55

No, I do, but people do it. Why? Because that's like they're chasing the feeling. Those people, it's pixels. That's all it is. It's pixels. But they're chasing the feeling of it, and they just like it, and then they want more of it, and they want more of it. And what's the outcome of that? They get to desensitized to normal sex, they can't have intimacy properly, and all of these outcomes. So is it a disease or a choice? For some reason, we've labeled drug addiction a disease. I don't know where that's come from. Because to me, I wouldn't have a drug disease, I just had an obsessive um impulse around chasing the feeling. I was chasing the dragon of that party feeling, you know, which turned into an addiction. And the addiction is the problem. And it's just momentum because you're like, once that momentum starts very hard to stop. It is so hard to stop. You know, so I think that addiction thing, and there's gonna be a lot of people out there that disagree because you know, when I watch things when they say, I'm a recovering drug addict, but like they they were a drug addict 30 years ago. No, mate, you've recovered. Shut up about it. You're not recovering. You just choose other things now. That's it. Stop saying it. I don't walk around saying, I'm a recovering drug addict, drug addict. Yeah, sure. But really, I was just a guy that just liked partying because it was just fun. And I like drugs. Like it was actually, I think people take them because they like them. You know, so this whole disease thing, I don't know. I I think it's a load of I think it's a load of rubbish. Just own your choices. And if you've got problems, start to fix them. And if you fall off, that's okay. Start to fix them, change your crowd, get some you know, get some, you know, if you need mental help, maybe. People say to me all the time, do you go to rehab? No, I you don't. What are you gonna do? Sit in a room and have someone go over their whole life and pinpoint why you're taking drugs. You're taking drugs because you just want to. And is it trauma? Is it this? I don't know. We all have trauma. Tara can do a whole 10 podcasts on her trauma in life. She's done one, I've listened to it. I'm sure you two, we've all got problems, you know, and it's whether you want to be bigger than them or you want to use them as an excuse. That's what I think. Nothing more.

SPEAKER_04 28:11

Uh, so anyone listening that does have an addiction, no matter what the addiction is too, what would be your advice?

SPEAKER_02 28:19

Stop. Yeah, it's just as simple as that.

SPEAKER_04 28:23

Stop.

SPEAKER_02 28:23

Yeah, and it's okay not if you if you stuff up. Yeah, it's okay. Um, get something you're more interested in. You know, that's why health and fitness and gut health, you know, I haven't always been into that, but I like it because it's a good, it's a good addiction. Well, I don't know if you can ask Tara, she probably hates it, but it's like, but to me, it's a good addiction, keeps my mind steady. I do have a very obsessive type of mind around when I want to do something. Like if I can't get my mind off of it a little bit, you know, Tara has certain levels of OCD and cleanliness and stuff, fantastic, because you never have to touch anything in the house that's put away like that. But you know, she's got to manage that. But I do. Um, but you just got to choose something that's productive. You know, work. I don't I think work's bad, worked addiction, who cares? There's a lot of lazy bums out there. Maybe they need to get addicted to work and sort themselves out because it's good. Provide a life for people, you know, do all that sort of stuff.

SPEAKER_00 29:17

So I feel like what you're saying is that there's a whole lot of complication and overanalysis about something that really is quite quite simple in that sense. Um, I guess like a lot of things in life, there's a lot of labels, and as you said, there's a lot of dissecting of all of this. And you said it's become this medical condition when really at the end of the day, it's it's a choice to start the stop, sorry, a choice to stop the process. Um, and it's not actually an illness.

SPEAKER_02 29:44

I didn't say, look, you can't see it now. I've got track, I had track marks all down, you can see how lumpy it is there. I had track marks from my vein collapse there, you know. I can't hear the microphone, but my vein collapse there, track marks all down my arms. I had can't tell you how many times I had infections drained out of my things. I went to the chemist, I got the or the needle exchange, I got the syringes, I bought the coke, and I injected the thing. So that's it. Disease didn't make me do that. You know, like I did. And that's what I'm saying. It's sort of like, yeah, is it and people are gonna say, oh, that's too simple. You need to go to the therapy, you need to do that. Maybe I don't know, I don't really know. But it you just stop because you want it.

SPEAKER_00 30:24

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:25

Like really.

SPEAKER_00 30:27

What about partners or families that might have someone in their life who's going through addiction? What advice do you think you could give to them without actually enabling the addiction?

SPEAKER_02 30:37

Kick them out. I think I don't I'm not the best person to talk to with that. Yeah, because it's like I made the wrong decision with Logan and I made the right decision with Jackson. With Jackson, we stopped talking for two years because it sucks everyone into it. I know a family, very wealthy family. They have um oh they it's he's better now, but he had a drug addicted son for a long time. Talk about chaos in their lives just sucks everyone into it, you know, like a big vortex. Everything becomes about that. So I um let them find their way. Let them hit the ground. They sort of gotta. Like, I'm not saying be unempathetic or not compassionate, but if it gets to the point where it's causing real problems, like real problems, I need to sort of go see what it's like out there and bounce off the bottom. You know, with Logan, he went to his nan's and I rang the nan and said, because he was living with us, and I rang the nan and I said, because he was with us or with me since what 12?

SPEAKER_04 31:44

13.

SPEAKER_02 31:45

13. And then um when he was 18, he went to the nans because we we were we used to be very tense, Logan and I, because I was a bit I think I was a bit tough on him, maybe. I don't know. I don't really know. Parenting's very difficult. And then I rang the nan and said, Don't let him live there because you've got no supervision, send him back because he I it's gonna be a mess, I can tell. So he um yeah, he ended up like I we didn't talk for I don't know what, a year, two, a year, year and a half.

SPEAKER_04 32:14

Oh just over a year.

SPEAKER_02 32:15

Just over a year. But that was my way of like, you know, come and talk to me when you're ready, happy to help. Because uh we tried everything else. You know, he was sniffing the deodorant cans, we found out originally first, and then he was like, also all sorts of things.

SPEAKER_04 32:31

You would sit him down every day and be calm with him and try and get to the bottom of things, and then you would go in hard, and then you would try to take things away, and you did you tried many approaches, yeah. So many just couldn't figure out it's hard because each child, as you said, is so different. Yeah, so each child needs a different parenting style almost.

SPEAKER_02 32:50

They do, and I'm black or white, like I'm just I I'm very I'm not I'm not giving anyone parenting it. That's the least podcast I should be doing because like that's not my forte at all. But you know, I'm sort of I'm a bit of the belief that if you want to make those choices, live by them then and see what happens with life. I'm a bit like that. So Jackson, I did the same, and it two years later he came around ringing me one day and said, you know, can we catch up and talk? And we did it, he's been not perfect, but he's been great ever since. So I used the same formula with Logan, but you know, he hung himself. So, you know, different I don't know, very different circumstances. So yeah. So I don't, I don't know, it's it's a hard one. Uh I do think let people feel the consequences of their choices are.

SPEAKER_04 33:36

I think what you said with Logan is maybe you mentally never left the room, metaphorically speaking, but for him it would have seemed that way. So maybe the advice could be it from your opinion that you're saying, you know, let them fall, let them get rock bottom.

SPEAKER_02 33:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 33:54

But always let them know that you are there.

SPEAKER_02 33:56

Yeah, I think I've made a mistake. I do. I think I made a mistake. Like I should have been a bit more I mean, I was in his with him every day, all day, uh every day surfing and stuff. But I think I made a mistake being I wasn't like on I cut his phone off. He went to his girlfriend's house and and he had a petrol card and he had bought all these cars and he blew up a car, just left it on the side of the road, and then bought another one. It was just like it was just like non-stop, what I was saying before, like a vortex of this stuff going on. Stealing, lying, and he went from the most honest kid to the most non-honous kid you've ever seen in your life. And then got into a fight, got stabbed, and you know, like the hospital, all those stab things in his hands. It was just getting worse and worse and worse. How many ambulances were called? I don't know how many. So many. I remember he was like paralytic on the floor and all these things. So in the end, we just had no no answers, like it was whatever. And I was like, mate, you just gotta go work yourself out. And yeah, so I think help them know that you're there, but then you know, I don't know. Then they're always trying to get more and more and more money and things. It's just like it was never ending. So I anyway, I don't have any bias around it. If someone's I do think my opinion doesn't change, kick them out and let them go wander around. But probably the lesson I learned out of Logan is maybe don't cut off completely. Have them know you're still there, I think. Yeah. Because we didn't talk for a long time, didn't I?

SPEAKER_04 35:32

I think it's hard, like you said earlier, it's hard to help anyone, a child, friend, family member, if they're not in acceptance of actually where they're up to in life. And I think that was um in terms of Logan, it was a little bit difficult because he was so dishonest with everything. So you couldn't really get to the bottom to try and help him with anything because he just wouldn't tell the truth.

SPEAKER_02 35:57

Everything. You know, we left him at Rainbow Bay for a day because he wanted to stay, he had a party and got the whole thing kicked out of the uh I can't even tell you how much lend him my car for a day, takes it to Queensland, gets police. Oh, I can't even tell so much. But it was like it's just getting out of control. But uh, I was gonna say something, I can't remember what I was gonna say, but um about the yeah, I was gonna say something along the lines of what you what did you say before, Jassim?

SPEAKER_04 36:22

Uh just about how you can't help someone that isn't honest with where they're actually up to.

SPEAKER_02 36:26

Yeah, I think pain makes you change. So until you feel the pain, you're not gonna change. And giving, giving, giving, hoping that they'll feel a bit better, like feel a bit better, feel a bit better, is just enabling them more and more. It's like this safety net that I know is always there. I'm a bit hopeless like that with my kids. Give, give, give, give. Way too much, way too much. Probably part of Logan's problem. I gave him way too much. Way too much. But he became entitled. And he did. He became like he literally just flipped when he was like 16, didn't he? Or something like that. He just became this most entitled kid you have ever met in your life.

SPEAKER_04 37:06

I think he felt a little bit untouchable.

SPEAKER_02 37:08

He did.

SPEAKER_04 37:09

It's hard when you give, you give as a parent if you're in the situation and privilege enough that you can. You want to spoil spoil your child. Of course you do. But they never learn what it's like to get there on their own, or they never learn consequences if you're not holding them accountable.

SPEAKER_02 37:24

Or that's a mistake I made really. Like I just I should have let him feel the pain earlier in life because he just thought it was just never-ending gift of anything. Yeah. But I d yeah, you know, I think until they feel the pain, they're never gonna change. So I see a lot of families, a lot of mums in desperate need to help their kid and all this sort of stuff. That's why I say just let them find their own way. You can't do nothing. You sort of watch the car crash up and be there, and then when it does crash.

SPEAKER_00 37:57

You must get a lot of messages from hundreds and hundreds. Hundreds and hundreds. Yeah. What's the I mean, you know, there would be a breadth of different things that they're asking, but what's the main message or question coming through from people who are in the grip of addiction and they're coming to you?

SPEAKER_02 38:11

What maybe doesn't sleep. Send quite a few people your way. Um you have? Yeah. It I I think that I think the hard part is is that's like yeah, all those messages, they just want answers on what should they do. Like it's their because they're their parent, which is natural, and they just want, you know. That's why they send the messages, but I'm always very blunt when I send it back and just they can't do nothing.

unknown 38:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 38:36

Oh. Well, thank you so much for coming on our podcast lived. It's been a long time since I saw you.

SPEAKER_02 38:43

Yeah, no, it's like 20 minutes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 38:46

No, but thank you. I hope um anyone that's listening, at least one person, it might help your advice and sharing your story. I know you've shared it many, many, many times. But it it's a someone always takes something from it.

SPEAKER_02 39:00

Yeah. You must be bored of it.

SPEAKER_04 39:02

I'm not. I like listening to it because it, you know, it's easy to get caught up in our current life that you forget the depth of you sometimes. I just focus on you not spraying down the bench and wiping it properly.

SPEAKER_02 39:17

Sure.

SPEAKER_04 39:17

My bloody Matt's so annoying.

SPEAKER_02 39:21

Yeah, I do think my name's changed to annoying. That's all you had to say.

SPEAKER_04 39:26

No, but thank you. That's right. Thanks.

SPEAKER_02 39:28

Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_04 39:29

Thanks, Matt.