Episode 12 Prenatal Child Loss & Grieving the Invisible Future with Dr. Tom Dutta

In this episode of Beyond the Loss, I welcome Dr. Thomas A. Dutta—an executive leader, author, and host of the Quiet Warrior Show—for a deeply moving and vulnerable milestone: his first time speaking openly on a public platform about the loss of his son, Tommy, who passed away preterm 31 years ago.

Tom pulls back the curtain on the corporate "lone wolf" mentality, detailing how he buried his heartbreak under the guise of executive success and the societal expectation for fathers to "suck it up and be the rock." From navigating a devastating prenatal Down syndrome diagnosis to holding an imaginary space for a 30-year-old son in his daily life, Tom shares how integrating his grief transformed his clinical understanding of identity and opened his heart to profound service, including recording bedtime stories for children of maximum-security inmates. This conversation is a necessary, perspective-shifting permission slip for any parent dealing with invisible, early-stage losses or long-term, unexpressed grief.

In this episode, we discuss:

• The Creative Imagination of Pregnancy: How parents construct deep, lifelong emotional attachments before a child ever draws a breath.
• The Burden of "Being the Rock": The silent shame, self-imposed isolation, and emotional toll experienced by grieving fathers in professional spaces.
• Grief Across Generations: Processing the multi-layered ache of missed milestones, family legacies, and the grandchildren our own parents never got to meet.
• Embodying Presence: The physical anchors of memory, from fireplace shrines to holding an internal visual representation of a child as completely whole, joyful, and free of disability.
• From Success to Soul: How embracing a historic trauma rewires the brain’s reticular activating system, shifting an individual's life purpose from shallow achievement to radical empathy and community service.

Learn more about Tom’s work, his leadership insights, and the Quiet Warrior movement through his websites and social platforms.

Connect with Dr. Tom Dutta:
Website: https://www.thequietrevelationinstitute.org/
KRE-AT: https://kreat.ca/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tomdutta/
Instagram: @thequietwarrioreats
YouTube: @tomdutta

Connect with me:
Website: https://sharonspano.com
Podcast: https://sharonspano.com/podcast/podcast-beyond-the-loss/
YouTube: youtube.com/@SharonSpano-BeyondtheLoss-Host
Substack: substack.com/@drsharon

Interested in Being a Guest on Beyond the Loss? Apply here to share your story: https://sharonspano.com/podcast-guest-beyond-the-loss/

About the Show 
Beyond the Loss: Life and Identity After a Child Dies is a podcast dedicated to helping grieving parents, bereaved families, and professionals navigate the emotional, relational, and identity shifts that follow the death of a child. Through compassionate conversations and clinical insight, we create space for healing, understanding, and honest reflection after profound grief.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:09

Welcome to Beyond the Line. This is a space for parents who have lost a child in any way at any age, where no grief is ranked, explained, or excluded. I'm Dr. Karen Spannon, developmental coach, systems thinker, and a parent whose life was forever changed by the death of my own son, Michael. What happens when the child who never got to live his life continues to shape yours? What if loss doesn't diminish your life, but continues to inform it over time, giving you a lens for what truly matters? These are the words of today's guest, Dr. Tom Duda. In this conversation, we'll explore the loss of his son Tommy and how grief, identity, and meaning can continue unfolding across a lifetime. Today we'll talk about loss across generations, the ways identity quietly unfolds over time, and the possibility that what first feels like an interruption can become a formative part of who we are. My guest, Dr. Tom Duda, is an executive leader, educator, author, and host of The Quiet Warrior Show. His work explores identity, leadership, and what it means to live with greater awareness and purpose. But beyond and behind the professional accomplishments is a father whose son died in the later stages of pregnancy, an experience that continues to shape his life and understanding of what matters most. Good morning, Tom, and welcome to the show. Thank you so much for being here.

SPEAKER_01 1:49

Good morning, Sharon. It's a pleasure to be here with you.

SPEAKER_00 1:51

Well, we've talked a little bit about this in our earlier conversations, but before we begin today, I want to dedicate this conversation to the memory of your son, Tommy. And again, thank you for your willingness to be on the show. I know this is a very vulnerable topic for you, for any parent. And I know that your work, as I said in the intro, is you know, your PhD work is around identity. But before we get into identity, because that's a major part of the conversation, I think, when you've lost a child, and we look at meaning or the way that Tommy's life continues to shape your family. I'd love for listeners to know a little bit about him. What would you want people to understand about your son Tommy?

SPEAKER_01 2:33

Well, first of all, he's got a great name.

SPEAKER_00 2:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:37

Uh my when I grew up as a kid, my mother's still alive. She's 90, and she, when I did something wrong, I was called Tommy. My legal name's Thomas, but uh, I'm just having some fun with you with that. Uh, you know, it it's interesting because he passed away preterm. Uh and so what what he is with with me in my mind is really it's it's a construct of what I felt with him up until uh almost uh the date where he was expected. So as we know from a lot of parents I've talked to that you you start doing things in the pregnancy, right? You start reading to the child, you start rubbing mummy's tummy, and you start living as if you have a a son. So he he he to me is is me. He's he would have been my my only son, and he would have been embodied my character, my personality, which is, I believe, intimacy and caring about other people. I think if he were here today, he would be somebody who was fun, had had a great spirit, which comes from my my wife. And so I guess I'll I'll close this answer with this that in my Tommy lives in my imagination as one of the greatest people that would have would have been here in our life.

SPEAKER_00 3:56

And I think we know we'll talk more about this as we get into the conversation, but I feel like sometimes it's um a really misunderstood experience of of loss when the child is lost, you know, perenatal and and whatnot. But I'm wondering what was the future that you and your family had imagined for him? I mean, it you know, you've kind of talked a little bit about maybe his character, his spirit. How how old would he have been now?

SPEAKER_01 4:21

Oh gosh. Well, let me just go back in my my mind. I I'm thinking about how old I am. So he would have been about 30 years old. Okay. Right, right, uh as of now. And if I can maybe just also tell you the experience we had during during those moments when when we lost him. I can do that to build on what about today. He he was diagnosed with widespread Down syndrome. And I never forget it because I was about 31 years old, and I was a bank manager in one of our largest Canadian banks, and my wife worked for the same bank. That's where I met her. I love her dearly. We've been married 30 years. Her name's Anna. And she and I got a call at my office from the children's hospital, and she got a call, and we both were in two different cars driving towards this children's hospital. And I knew that something was up because you never get a call from children's hospital, and we were very close to delivering Toby. And uh, remember sitting in that room and they went through what was wrong and how he more than likely wasn't going to survive the delivery and all of that. And it was like a gut punch. And you know, I just remember back then that the you know, watching my wife go through the grieving, and I felt at that time I had to be the rock. I had to be tough. So I buried I buried everything. So coming forward now to what would he have been to our family, I think that was what the question was, right?

SPEAKER_00 5:54

Yeah, and I I I first let me just stop for a moment and say um how strange that feels to me, you know, having had a son as you know, born with a a disability, a rare metabolic disorder, that they would give you that information over the phone.

SPEAKER_01 6:11

Yeah. Uh and so just to go back into the factual part, they said to come to the children's hospital, but they didn't tell us anything and was actually in the room. And you know how doctors are, they tend to not be emotional. And it was like boom, boom, boom. You know, this is the situation they showed us x-rays and it was widespread downs and told us all the ugly parts. Yeah, I mean, it was it was it was quite horrible, especially because I didn't have any children. Sure. And and my wife had two two boys from her previous marriage. So it was all a new experience.

SPEAKER_00 6:46

Well, and and just let me add to that my experience of persons with Down syndrome, um, you know, if they if they do survive, and many, many do, um, they're they're if we can be stereotypical for a moment, they are the most joyful. Yeah. They are they are they're just so fun to be around and the most joyful. And so I would add to the list of how you described him, and I'm sure you think of him this way as a joyful being, a joyful spirit. But going back to kind of that assumption that I alluded to a moment ago, you know, that there is, and I think, and I want to hear your experience of this, an assumption in our culture that I hear a lot about, that when a child dies either before birth or or early in in the early years, that the loss is somehow different or less significant because maybe there aren't as many memories, or, or maybe just because other people in the family or the surrounding environment didn't get a chance to know that child. And I want to be careful not to impose that experience on you, but I wonder if you've ever encountered that kind of minimalization or misunderstanding around Tommy's actual death.

SPEAKER_01 7:54

Well, it's interesting reflecting back because I've heard that through circles and conversations with others. Well, you know, at least you didn't have to endure the the pain of him going through this disability. Or, you know, it can't be the same because he he never really made it to pass the finish line. And my my feeling is that that's there is no difference. To be honest with you, a year after we lost Tommy with the miracle of a daughter came. And so I have a child. So know what it is, I know what it's like to have a child, Sharon. But it feels this the same to me. Because through the through the early parts we I I think my brain formed an emotional connection with him. Uh and that that stayed with me. And in terms of the layers of it, there I went through different stages of of the grieving. And when I first lost uh Tommy, I was a very busy CEO in my career. So I kept busy and didn't really think too deeply of it. But as I came across people who had uh sons particularly, I started listening to their stories of you know on the weekends what they would be doing with their kids, particularly the dads. And then the next layer came when my father and my mother, and expecting a you know, a grandchild, uh my dad passed away in 2018, but but he never had a a grandson. So I started thinking about all those things. What would it be like to to not have you know a son and the loss that my dad might have experienced, you know, not being able to take him fishing. So all the things I grew up with that my dad was brought into my life. I was, you know, unconsciously hoping that I would have that, you know, in in the life of my parents. But but going back to is it any different? I don't think it's different. Of course, I can't put myself in anyone's shoes, but I think the pain even today, thinking about it, is as difficult as it was 31 years ago. And when I when I think about little Tommy and I talk about him to people openly, I talk about him as if he was a living human being, right? He was here with us.

SPEAKER_00 10:06

Well, and and he he is, if we look at it from you know, my work, which as you well know, involves systems. When we talk about family systems, we often talk about how important it is to name, you know, the children in the proper order. I've seen great disruption in families when uh siblings don't know that they're not the second child, or they think they were the first child and then later find out that there was a first child that was lost that no one talked about. They they often will describe it as they never felt where they fit in the family. And when we do the systemic mapping work around that and they understand, or, you know, uh often they didn't know about it till later in life, it has a tremendous effect on them to know that yeah, I had an older brother or sister who was first. I know that's true for myself because my mother lost her first daughter to CIS disease. And I knew about it all my life. But because it was her first marriage and I'm in the second marriage, I always thought of myself as the first, her first daughter. And when I did the deeper work, realizing no, I wasn't the first daughter, I'm really the second daughter, it changed my understanding because my mother was someone who was not available really. Right. Yeah. And I didn't really understand that because it to me as a child it felt very personal. Uh, but then of course, later having lost a child myself and understanding that I was the second daughter somehow opened up a healing in me and gave me more compassion for what my mother must have gone through in losing that first baby.

SPEAKER_01 11:42

Well, I I want to just riff on that with you because a whole bunch of things come to mind. I tend to tell stories, but when you say something, it it makes my mind go on these journeys. And I was thinking about uh the you know, when we lost Tommy and the the memories of of that and what it means to to me today. What I don't talk about, and I'm gonna talk about it here openly, is the shame that came with it. And in my my own doctoral work, I did a doctorate degree and actually heading to London for graduation in about a a week's time. I was born in London. I came to Canada here when I was six years old. So it's like a homecoming, a pilgrimage. But you know, this thing uh this thing about uh shame, they say, or I learned that you know, when there's something that feels off, if you if you name it and you talk about it, that's the beginning pathway to healing. And I I know that you're an expert in this area. I never talked about the loss of Tommy very much. In fact, some might say, Wow, Tom, 30 years later, you're starting to talk about it. But I want to be true to the audience that I have this is the first interview I've done openly talking about it. And as a busy executive, I I start realizing now that part of why I never talked about it in my circle is because of the sh I believe the shame of it. I I I felt like I let people down, or there was something wrong with me because I'd lost a child, you know. Maybe there's something wrong with my my the way I create children, or maybe you know, I I deserve this. And and for for quite many years, I came across people through my work, uh through their stories who had lost children to cancer, for example. And and they talked about it openly, and I started wondering why am I not talking about it? And then one of the things I came up with, I came up with a bunch of different uh ideas. One of them was for fear of protecting my daughter. So a year later, I had a beautiful daughter. She's 28 years old now, just got graduated university, just got married last year. She's the love of my life next to my wife Anna. And I don't know, I I don't know how to say this, but I almost didn't want to talk about, oh my goodness, I missed little Tommy. I wish I had a son, because part of me felt that if I say that, it's gonna diminish. She might think, well, dad wanted a boy, you know. Right. I'm a Canadian, but my roots are to India where my my great-grandfather was born, and my parents were born in Fiji. But there's this bit of thing in our culture about the boys or sort of the kings. And, you know, back in that land, for whatever reason, I don't agree with it. You know, boys are desirable and women maybe or girls maybe aren't the first choice. It's just a dumb belief system, and there's much to that. And so I went through this and I still even prepared for this interview. I started thinking about what if my daughter hears this interview and I have to be careful, I have to be guarded, because I what if she hears it and says, Dad, you're very disappointed because Tommy didn't come and I'm really sorry I let you down. So that was the first thing is about the shame. And how I I think I overcome that was really when I started doing podcasting, I had people coming through the show and uh talking about I've I've probably had a dozen people who have lost children. And one of the one of the biggest threads in some of the interviews is died by suicide, which is just horrible, right? And I found myself when I started talking to other people like with you here, I f I started seeing between the space between us, I started seeing in their story a part of me. And a part of part of me that was missing. So they're talking about openly about the loss of this child. And my I'm starting to say, wait a minute, what they're saying and they're feeling and what they went through, that that that's kind of causing me something in my gut. And I started then relating back in the conversation little bits, right? You know, I I I I I almost had a son, or his name would have been Little Tommy, etc. And I remember now and when I think about this, that each time I would do those interviews and say something back, it was like they're giving me permission to see myself in their story. I started feeling a bit better. And when I when I said something to the them, I didn't feel the shame. It actually felt freeing, it felt good. So so so yeah, the shame piece, I think people, you know, you know, name name the trauma, name the loss, talk about it, find find a way to approach it. But I think I'll close on this with that point that without doing this interview, this interview is part of that journey of healing, but without talking about it, uh you know, I don't think I I don't think I would be whole as a person. And then the second side of that is talking about is not just about, oh, what was me, the loss, but it's about all the the positives because there are many positive experiences.

SPEAKER_00 16:39

There are many positives, right?

SPEAKER_01 16:40

Oh my god, we used to go to Ikea yeah, we used to go to IKEA and shop for the big fancy buggy and all the fancy gear. And some of those, some of those moments with my wife, too, where we're telling stories to her tummy and things that you just didn't the dream of having my first child. I mean, those are golden moments, but the trauma buries it all unless it absolutely does. You bring it out, right? You reclaim it, I think, as as you say.

SPEAKER_00 17:04

And it takes some time, I think, too. But I know that you've talked about Tommy, you know, beyond the loss. You you really have in in our conversations. And uh as someone who's really whose absence continues to shape your life, your marriage, your family, and your understanding of identity. And I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit about, you know, beyond what you've already said, maybe how how he's still in relationship with you over time. Because I know that can seem odd in our culture. We we sometimes want to, you know, especially the people around us. I think, I think we've all experienced this where people want us to move on or get over it. I mean, there's a there's a variety of ways that people want to see us healed and and express that and all well-meaning. Um, but but what is that relationship now like for you?

SPEAKER_01 17:55

Yeah, I just as you're right talking, I wrote some notes. I'm uh a bit of a visual learner, so my brain started drawing pictures. First picture I experienced was if you go outside of my studio here, this is my podcast studio, into my living room that way. Uh, we have a fireplace, and in front of the fireplace, there's a a little figurine, what's about this big? And uh and in it is Tommy's hospital bracelet, uh picture of picture of the ultrasound where his body. And we sealed all that up in a little tomb and we put it in front of our fireplace. So there's not a day that goes by where I don't sit and embody that feeling that Tommy's right there. And how's he with me? I mean, when I have sometimes good days, sometimes rough days, uh, I'll find myself unconsciously looking at that and and having conversations with him. Another way he's with me is in uh in life experiences. For example, we're hosting World Cup soccer here in Vancouver. And I I I'm not a big soccer player. I played for the North Delta Trojans when I was a kid, mostly influenced by my late father. But I would be, I remember just uh in my mind having an unconscious conversation and saying, Hey Tommy, check this out. Look at Messi scored three goals. How awesome is that. And just just reliving experiences today as if he was here.

SPEAKER_00 19:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:19

The the last part of him being here would have is uh is in the memory, uh memories of my father who passed away in 2018. So there's a lot of life things that happened. For example, it's summer now, and we go up to the lake with uh with our family, and I think about Tommy being with us. I I have him, I it's almost like he's here.

SPEAKER_00 19:45

Do you have a visual of him? Because I think I I would think that's one of the harder parts is that uh because he wasn't actually physically born, you know, like I have pictures of my son, not everywhere, but in strategic places. I have to your point of I I'm looking right out now on my on my yard, and I have a a globe called the tree of life that someone made for us, and it's beautiful. And we hang it out, you know, in the summertime. Every time I go up the steps and make a right to my car, I look at that tree of life and I think of Michael. There's a there's so many ways that when I think of him though, I have a face, I have a body. Now I do have moments where I imagine him not in a wheelchair and in a whole body, and I imagine um, you know, what would his physique have been like? Would he have been taller than my husband, huskier, you know, those kind of moments. Do you have those kind of experiences? Or um, you know, what comes up for you in your visual representation of him, particularly since you're a visual man?

SPEAKER_01 20:43

Well, I can that's I can tell you now what's coming up. I don't have these visualizations as frequent, I guess. Uh I have pictures from when I was a little boy myself. And there's one of me, it back it was taken back in Fiji, and I have cur I had a big head of curly hair. People used to say I was a sad baby because I'm serious, I don't smile. But I was sitting on these big cushions that my mom had, and I had this big big smile on my face in that moment. That picture is what comes up when I think of Tommy, because you know, they say that children, if you look closely at their features, there's mom and dad in there. So I, you know, unselfishly I like to think that little Tommy be like a mini me. So I think that that picture I see I see him as uh as some uh smiling. I don't see him as somebody who's sad. And and um this is the hard part because I've never really thought of this, but why don't I see him as disabled? Right? He had downs and it was widely spread, it was is really extreme. Why don't I see that? Am I am I masking that? Am I covering it up? Why is I I'm not sure on yeah on that.

SPEAKER_00 21:55

But maybe because I mean I guess it depends on your your background, but I like to think of my son. As fully to use the word whole. I mean, I do imagine him now a spirit who is able to walk and no more pain and suffering kind of thing. Maybe, maybe that's why. I mean, maybe, maybe that's what the universe God Tommy would infer is that you you you imagine him, you know, without the disability. And that's not to say, because I'm, you know, obviously an advocate for the disabled and the spirit and the joy that they bring. I I always say they, they, they bring this back to our humanity. So I'm not I'm not in any way trying to infer that there's something wrong with the person who has a disability, but I think it comes with a lot of challenges that most of us don't have to endure. And, you know, I prefer to think that my son is free of all of that, free of the wheelchair, you know, free of uh Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:52

Well, I think that's how I think that's where I think too. And and you know, with my dad passing away in 2018, uh, I didn't know him most of my life. My dad left when I was 12. There's a whole other story there. He's quite an addicted alcoholic, and he was an army commanding officer. So I it was raised kind of tough environment, but I started having all these thoughts too about some regret about not my dad, like when he died, my dad not having experiences to take little Tommy fishing or take little Tommy to kick a soccer ball around. And some of that came along with my dad passing. And uh never really thought about that until he left that he didn't have a grandson. Uh, so yeah, I mean, I I don't think trauma happens on a time scale. So it happens it how I'm sure when I go to to London for my graduation, I'll be sitting there and going, like, damn, I wish he was sitting here right beside me. Yeah, why taking a photograph of my iPhone perfectly as I told him to while I'm crossing the stage. But you just and it's and now that you were talking about my daughter a bit, I kind of think, what would have would have happened if I didn't have a child, if I didn't have my daughter? And there's another nuance that comes in in that I raised two stepchildren, they're both boys. So the two boys I raised were nine and twelve when I met them. So you know it's like I had an experience with boys in my life, you know, even though I'm the stepdad, I raised them. So there's some guilt around that is like, did they replace Tommy? You know, and then and then what would it have been like if Tommy was here in the mix with these two uh good-looking boys? And my wife's Italian. So now I start getting all excited when I'm talking to you because I never thought about that until now. I was like, man, it could have been like almost like the Brady Butch, but you've got I would see him as a leader in that group because the boys had their I know the boys' backgrounds, I won't talk about them for identity pro protection, but I think he I think Tommy'd be kicking their butts. Like they were always they're always talking about being the best soccer players, and and a very different thing too is I'm a very academic-minded person, so you know, a little bit of me selfishly, but uh I know a lot of clients well through my public practice I do coaching, and I have a one client that comes to mind right now who owns 20 companies or construction companies, and his son, he's in his 60s, his son's in his 30s, he's the heir apparent. And all of that stuff too just plays on my mind. It's like I have my own business, and if Tommy was here, you know, I'd I'd grow try to influence him to take carry on my legacy. And and uh so I think in some way we can do something with this loss in in our work, right?

SPEAKER_00 25:38

Well, how I'm gonna ask you how, because I know you and I talked about, and I just did a show on you know what might have happened, and I talked about not necessarily dwelling in that, but but but knowing and and just considering, you know, because I I think that's just a natural thing. You know, I know my husband, you know, plays golf, and you know, most of the guys appear, uh, you know, when their sons, if they have sons, come in and you know, they're out with their sons playing golf. So I know that a lot of what you're describing is true for him as well, of what could have been, but I know you've done a lot of work through your doctoral uh experience on identity. And I'm wondering, how has your understanding of yourself really changed because Tommy was and is still very much a part of your life? I mean, have you have you noticed that shift in identity? Because I know for me, I feel like everything I am, everything I've done in my career, everything I've accomplished is because of the experience of having a child with a disability. Um, and and then certainly, you know, after Michael passing in 2008, the work I had to do just on my own spirit uh to get through it has impacted the work I do with clients in very dramatic ways. So, what is your understanding of yourself and how has it changed because of Tommy?

SPEAKER_01 26:54

Yeah, I'm just uh writing a few things down here. Uh the that that's a that's a question that actually has deep meaning and there's a nuanced answer all over the place in my head on this one. A bit emotional too, that uh I think if if I hadn't had that experience of expecting a child, losing a child, then my my passions or my purpose in the world might be very different. So, for example, when you lose a child, it it wires in you it it makes me hypersensitive to other people who have lost children. So I find myself doing things unconsciously and I and consciously, and I probably did I probably didn't even think about this till now, uh, that I'm going like, why am I doing that? So, in terms of my identity, I'll give you some examples. I do podcasts and I get uh guests being sent to me, as you do by booking agents. And now that I'm thinking about it, I purposely I get I get maybe a dozen uh profiles a month of people to interview, and yet I get stuck on in a good way, stuck on people who have a loss in their life of of child, something to do with that thread. So there's the first thing that shaped me is like I'm how I'm actually hovering to people who have had losses.

SPEAKER_00 28:16

And so maybe what is it that intrigues you about them? Because your show is is focusing on leadership and you know aspects of business. But what is it that you're hoping to I mean, there's a is it their gut instinct that says they may have more of one thing versus another, or what what what is the draw there, or do you have an awareness of that?

SPEAKER_01 28:39

Well, I have awareness now since I did the doctorate. So in the doctorate, I started learning that part of what I was doing in my public work. So I'm my background, as you'll put in the show notes, is I'm a CEO from industry. So I was a hired executive most of my career. And then I created a platform to do coaching and teaching and podcasting and books, though those type of things. What I discovered to the doctorate, Sharon, is that I was could because I was wondering why am I doing all this stuff? And people would ask me, my CEO buddies and my exec friends would say, Why don't you just go back and sit in a chair and be an executive? It's easier. And and I'm going, like, I don't know why I'm doing all this stuff, but I learned through my doctorate why because I was doing this dance, I was having relational dialogues with people in my podcast studio. I was, for example, when I wrote my first book, it was written as a fable, but as stories, and there were characters I was relating to in the book. And what I discovered is I was seeking something that was missing. So there were neural adaptations in my head, in other words, parts of me that were buried that I never talked about. So I was searching for things that were missing in my my identity, in my own story. For example, who is my grandfather? Why did my dad leave home? Why did little Tommy die and other people don't have little Tommies who die? What was the meaning of all this? Why am I interested in interviewing Sharon, who's lost the child so much versus this? And what it really was is I discovered is that I I was seeking to learn about my own story, to fill in those gaps. And maybe if I interview Sharon, maybe something in that interview is going to help me with what's missing in my my story. It identified that part of me that's missing. So, for example, every time I did an interview of somebody who lost a child, for example, I did the ride to conquer cancer, which is a two-day bike ride, and it was for a gentleman I know who lost his daughter to leukemia at age 11. And I interviewed him and I was really curious about what, like some of the things were like, what was it like to live with a daughter who had leukemia? And in her story, the the cancer was there, then it went into remission and then it came back. So this was like, how did you deal with that? How did you get through it? What did you do? So in these interviews that I do of others, I I'm hoping that people will find in their stories something missing that's gonna lock something in their own stories, and that's gonna lead them to living a fuller life. It's gonna lead them to saying, uh, I just heard what Roger was saying. And, you know, he does this bike ride every year because it's it's part of how he gives back in honor of his daughter. So, you know, maybe I maybe I should do that.

SPEAKER_00 31:28

Yeah, I think what I'm hearing in you, and I as I'm listening to you, I'm thinking so much of that might be true for me. I'm often heard to say that, you know, if it hadn't been for Michael having a disability and then all that we've been through, I I I shudder to think how how shallow I might have been, you know, not that I don't have shallow moments, I think I do, but I'm saying he he brought such meaning and purpose to our lives and still does. So I'm wondering, um how, if at all, have you seen Tommy's presence, his life, short as it was, perhaps influence people around you or even through your work who've never actually met him?

SPEAKER_01 32:08

Yeah. I'm just gonna continue with the the last story and then build on it with your question. So I talked about how's it changed me? It's it's for example, through the podcast, I'm interested in interviewing people who have had loss, particularly children. Uh one of the things I started doing just a couple years ago is I I'm a faith-based guy, so I'm not I'm not talking religion here, but I believe in in God and I have a relationship there. And I started I started volunteering. Actually, I was sitting in an audience at a Christmas uh Christmas event in my church with my wife. And a couple of guys walked on stage and started talking about prison ministry. And my brain really got connected to that. I went, Why am I connected to this? And so one thing led to another, and I decided to join the prison ministry in what's called the parental reading program. And so the parental reading program, I remember when I got interviewed to do it by the lead pastor of my of this ministry, they said, Why are you here? I said, Well, my dad left home when I was 12, so I had a loss of a parent, and I lost my son as well earlier in my life. And I'm thinking about all the kids who have lost parents or all the children out there and doing something meaningful to give back to these children. And so we go into the prison and basically record the fathers who read books to their children, and we take that and we send it over to the child. And I was thinking about it.

SPEAKER_00 33:40

That's beautiful. That's really beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 33:42

So while I was thinking about how does that replace Tommy or what am I doing today where Tommy shows up? And here's an example. I'm sitting across from somebody, these men are in red jumpsuits. We're in a library in the maximum security prison. We get 15 minutes with each, and I'm sitting there watching these grown men who have made biggest mistakes in their lives reading books that they've chosen, children's books, while we record it, but reading to their children. And you're not allowed to humanize them, you're not allowed to make them weak because if they go out into the cell block, they can get killed. But I hold a space, same thing I was telling you. I hold this space for them to talk about things. And one of the fellows was reading his book and he started welling up, he started crying. Like this is a grown man, right? Right. And uh we stopped and we paused. And I said, How are you how are you doing? Take a deep breath. And I said, What are you okay? What happened? He said, My mom used to read me this book. My mom passed away, and my mom, I miss her. And I remember in that moment I said, You know, I understand what is what it's like about children, about loss. I said, Little Tommy is my son, and he he he left me. And so part of him's in this room. So after that, I'm reflecting now on it. Here I am sitting with a maximum security prison with um with an inmate, and we're talking about children, and I have a story I can tell about little Tommy lost.

SPEAKER_00 35:10

And I feel like what what I mean as I'm listening to you, I feel like um the the heart is opened for even this level of service, which is a big leap that I don't know, and tell correct me if I'm wrong. I don't know that you would have been, I'll use the word called to even do this, um, as a big time, you know, CEO, busy guy. But now here's Tommy. Your heart is open as a result of the experience of him that allows you to have more compassion and empathy for someone who's not even in your world. Um, and there you are really ministering to someone in a way that is just so beautiful and so important. I mean, do you do you agree with that kind of summation that Tommy's opened your heart to be more available and compassionate to others?

SPEAKER_01 36:01

Yeah, that's where I was going with all of this, is there's a part of my life now where I'm I'm connected and doing things with a thread to children, right? And uh I was always, as I grew up, because I was a lone wolf, even though people who knew me said you're a busy executive, you're kind of a successful guy. I was I was kind of always keeping to myself, right? I wasn't opening myself up. My heart was closed because of all these missing parts of it. And and Tommy actually did something miraculous in my life, is that he opened me up to doing things in a way like the prison ministry, right? Like talking to others who have lost children. And I think that's really a big part of the mission, is that if I can say it this way, you know, in my life, God put me in a situation where I lost my son. But maybe that was using me to say, Tom, you've got you've got some gifts here, and you go out now and do something with it to help others. And it's funny because there's a thing in the brain called the reticular activating system. And if you, for example, describe to your audience, if you close your eyes and think about the color red and you're in a stadium of people and you open, you all of a sudden you see the color red. It's because this part of your brain filters out. Right. So it's it's interesting because since since the loss of Tommy, I I find that my brain sees more uh more children, more loss of children, more stories. And and yet I don't think if that had happened, I would see that. I would live, I would live in a world where maybe just like most people, I focus on just life and yeah and living children, but the focus on the losses.

SPEAKER_00 37:42

I think what's so interesting, because I see uh what the point I want to make for anyone out there who might be in the early stages is, or for people that just, you know, I think we've all had those moments where, you know, someone in the external family and an aging aunt or someone, you know, I've had things said like, well, now you can get on with your life, meaning, you know, you had this burden of a child with a disability. And and I remember thinking when that comment was made, what are you talking about? He he is my life. But I think the point that you're making that is so important is that the relationship with our children continues and it continues to evolve. And that is perfectly normal and perfectly fine. And we don't, there's no timeline for how we should grieve. You know, there's no uh there's no beginning and end. It's it just becomes a part of us and hopefully in a way that is manifested uh for the greater good in society. You know, when as I'm listening to you, I'm thinking about how so many of my clients who are very successful people, and I know you work with the same types of individuals, but they they they experience what I often call the emptiness of success. And they they come to me and they, you know, I just am calling to mind someone I worked with last year who had really just an ideal life, a beautiful family, loving husband, but she was very, very um depressed all the time and felt like you know, life just wasn't what it could be. And then somehow in the course of our work together, of course, it always comes out, you know, that I lost my son. And it changed everything for her. It changed her perspective on her own gifts and her own uh beauty and the marriage and the children that she has because she couldn't imagine anything worse than losing a child. And it and it wasn't that I intentionally told the story to like, you know, say to her, you know, look at how lucky you are. It just evolved naturally in our relationship. But I think as I listen to you, Tom, I'm realizing that there's such a deep purpose in our stories. And you talk about Tommy not being something in the past, that he is your story. Um, and I think however we choose to express that as a parent, um, and I and I don't want to suggest that parents need to be out there doing all these amazing things because some parents, you know, they they just they they don't feel equipped at maybe this point in time or ever uh to do some of the things that you and I do, and that's fine too, you know. Uh, but I I know that it gives me purpose to do the work that I do. And Michael is in the middle of my work all the time, and it sounds very real for you in that context as well. I want to ask you though, going back to the experience uh that you were talking about with the shame, uh, did you ever feel that your experience as a father was understood differently than your wife's experience as a mother? Because I think as society, uh, particularly in a prenatal loss, sometimes, you know, we we we all feel the pain and suffering of that loss of the dream child, but we I think tend to focus more on the mother. I mean, was was did you feel that your experience was understood differently? How did it affect your sense of belonging, I guess, is what the the deeper question in that experience?

SPEAKER_01 40:54

I laugh a bit. Uh because guy guys, look, guys are it's it's funny because I had a concussion in 2018, so they sent me because I was slipped into depression into rooms for mental health reasons. I had depression all, and I was in a group setting, and there were men and there were women, and the guys are sitting there like they're they're tough, right? They don't talk, they don't complain, and they don't show their emotion or whatnot. And and and and I I think maybe I'm wrong in this, but I think a lot of I think the conversation about who we focus on more because of the loss of a child being the woman is also self-imposed by the guys. If I'm out there, if I'm out there talking about it more, showing my emotions, right? Showing my grief, uh, then all then they're gonna I'm gonna get something back. But if I cover it up, if I don't talk about it because I'm supposed to be like suck it up, Tommy, be tough, then maybe I'm not gonna welcome that empathy. I'm not gonna welcome that concern. But going back to what you said, I do a lot of reading and research, and I'm not gonna cite anything here because I I need facts, but biologically I think it's true. I think the impact on a woman who's reared the child, right, who's gone through that is completely different. We can't compare it. But uh, but I think the life impact is is is somewhat equal in terms of mom and dad losing a child. Because the thing we don't haven't talked about in this this interview yet, I want to talk about, which is becoming alongside the mother. Like how do you how do you when when the mom loses a child, how do you come alongside her? What is the what does the man do? Do we go back to work and just don't talk? Don't and I I think that you know, we saw more outpouring and more concern, I think, for mom than we did for me. And when I step back and I look at that, I think, well, why is that? And I I really believe that it might be just built into the human condition of, you know, we don't we don't mention or we don't talk to Tom about it, you know.

SPEAKER_00 43:03

Do you think that it's because of it was it was uh perenatal? Like because I know in our situation, my son was 27 and the world around us knew how close that relationship was between my husband and and Michael. So it to me, it felt um and I he may feel differently, but I don't think so. I think it felt pretty equal. You know, there the guys really, you know, I mean, everyone in general, I think, understood that this was a dramatic loss for both of us because they had witnessed us as a family. Again, going back to our beginning conversation where people didn't witness you together, it seems like we think of the loss maybe more for the mother than the father because she carried this child for uh, you know, X amount of weeks, months, whatever. Do you do you think that's part of it?

SPEAKER_01 43:53

Yeah, I think it is. And then now that you said that, it actually brings up some other things that are hard to to to to. deal with that. Uh it's true. Everything I'm talking about here about Tommy is some people might say you're just making it up. How can you say that? He was never beside you. He was never in a boat with a fishing rod. He was never, you know, sitting uh sitting with you and and mom, you know, at his school, whatever. And uh I don't know how to answer that. That creates a bit of shame, to be honest with you, not on purpose, but it's like it's a competition. It's like, well, you know, you had the exp I had my children, you know, they were at least there. I had that chance. And um I I I can't really I can't really explain if others would judge me differently because he wasn't you know he he he wasn't with us.

SPEAKER_00 44:47

Well so much of this show I've really stated from the very beginning I don't want there to be a hierarchy in the loss because I know there is even amongst parents if your child died of drug overvote overdose or suicide in my in my and or or even as we've been talking parenatal because a loss of a child is it's all relative to that family. So that's one thing that I'm really trying to to bust up. But then the other thing is regardless of how long you know you had him or the fact that you didn't have a physical presence of him, you have so beautifully stated how he was very much a part of the future that you and your wife imagined. And you've talked a lot about and and really helped me see that that a big part of that pain and and and and you know really the the the suffering around the loss is the fact that so much didn't get to happen, like you know, your your father experiencing them and what that and whatnot. So I think there's a tendency for us as parents though, I know I do it myself is to compare our loss with someone else. Like I have a friend that I've talked about a lot who lost her daughter a couple of years ago to a horrific accident. Beautiful young girl 26 just you know thinking starting to think about marriage and building her career. And I often think about their loss is greater than mine because you know my son was ill and there was never going to be a marriage or or grandchildren or any of those things. But but then that diminishes my own loss. So when I catch myself going to that and saying you know feeling so much for her and diminishing my own loss, I have to pull back and say no, you know, part of my integration as I often talk about is knowing that my loss, your loss is as real your child as important and and and meaningful and there's a reason that that this person their spirit still lives on and there's something to consider in all of that what whatever we do with it, whatever meaning we assign to it is up to us as as family members. I'm wondering what you think when I talk I just briefly touched on what I think integration means.

SPEAKER_01 47:02

What does it feel like or mean to you in today's world when so much of what you've talked about is unresolved what does feel steady and integrated into your life in the here and now if anything but I think there's quite a lot of well I I think one of the things I wrote it down here a bit ago was I I lost a son but I gained my soul and I think that this is really important because when we talk about the integration of this loss of Tommy in into my life today it it to it it makes me feel whole to have had a son even though I didn't have a son. I don't know if anybody can make sense of that. I can and yeah when uh sorry sorry take a moment yeah it's like uh it's like you know I've my friends will pull out their pictures of their kids right or you you had a son and yeah you look you lost him maybe at age five or six but then you'll say here look at this picture right and and I can't show that picture. Yeah so the pictures are imaginary so I I look at all that but I want to go back for a minute to something that I've been doing to deal with this personally. Uh point back in my studio there's a replica of a human brain there and I studied a lot of neuroscience and the way my the way I understand the my brain works is it's a thought machine right so it creates thoughts it embodies emotions which are feelings and sensations and then that basically creates a behavior. So I I I think there's two things I can have the meaning of the loss of Tommy as a negative thought a really sad thing or I can talk about it accept it and then turn it into something positive. What has it done for me? And when when when we have positive thinking it ends better because then you can create outcomes or behaviors. You actually do things in life right you you integrate into your life the loss of a son but you can make a choice the brain can choose to think positively about it which then has me go out into society and live and enrich other people's lives. And so I think that's the journey I've made and I didn't quite understand that until this stage in my life where I started going out and doing things with that story that were positive. And I think that really has made my life it's enriched my life it's made it better. But I do know a lot of people I shouldn't say a lot but I I know many many people who are they can't get past the loss. Right. They they haven't grieved and one thing I would reach out to the audience and say is I need somebody in the room if you can't get through it you have to reach out to a professional a counselor or a psychology. Somebody you can hold the space for you to be able to let me just put it this way I read this in my thesis research Carl Rogers who really established psychotherapy he taught me that there's certain conditions of relationship that have to exist between two people for you to feel seen and heard right and then to grow as a human being. So one is live deep listening empathy accepting mean with unconditional positive regard and um and then maybe a bit of sharing back something that makes you relatable so that you know oxytocin that joy starts coming into my brain. There are a lot of people and I don't put people down for this because I'm one of them who don't know what to say when somebody says I lost my son. It's like oh oh I'm so sorry but you know at least you didn't have to live 10 years with him and experience and have to deal with that. You know, at least you lost you lost him before he was born at least this and they say stupid things because they they don't know they don't know what to say.

SPEAKER_00 50:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:55

No when you go into psychotherapy uh which I went through for my depression other things happen. So the unintended consequence of my my own therapy for depression which I I'm I I work through well is I started talking about deeper things that were hidden like the loss of my son. Like when I had my concussion part of what when I was in therapy I would talk about I wish he was here. I I wish he was here to do this. I really miss him or I feel sad but sometimes I think about this and why did God do this and take my my concussion have me stop life for a few years. And now you know why did that happen with my son? You know all this stuff. And I started processing it and when somebody listened to me and I felt seen and heard everything just changed. And uh I know I went on a tangent there for for a reason but I think this part about meaning and changing it to something that's positive can happen but in you need to redo it with you need to be in a relationship with somebody else to move through it. Right. Whether it's talking to somebody who's lost a child. But I really believe in having somebody who's professionally trained who knows how to have the conversation with you so you can be seen and heard. I think that's really really vital.

SPEAKER_00 52:14

It's really important and I know I know certainly in generations past and I still see some of it today where people just think they can soldier up and and push through but as we know you know trauma stays in the body and it can manifest in other ways. So it's it's important uh to help others you know or to have someone as you mentioned outside as we as we reach the top of the hour I want to be conscious of your time and I want to thank you for being so candid and vulnerable and open Tom in in expressing uh what this journey has has been like for you. And I feel like um today you know Tommy's in the in the middle of this conversation and he's just a big part of of what we're hoping to to bring to other parents and and people around those parents who are trying to move through through this journey of loss. And I think you've touched on this but I want to end with one final question because again you know we have bit very clearly stated that this show is really um positioned and intended for parents who are uh in that what I call the long after you know they've they've been through the years of uh of of the loss and and have you know had to deal with the identity issues and all the things that we've kind of touched on briefly today. But I also know that those that are in the early stages, you know, what I said in my first podcast is you deserve more than a podcast. So please seek additional supports. But I'm hoping they're listening and they can learn from those of us that are in that long after uh season. So if a parent listening today is in those early stages of losing a child and really can't imagine there ever, you know, I remember feeling like I couldn't breathe and maybe someone is in that place where they can't imagine carrying this loss for decades to come, what would you want them to know?

SPEAKER_01 54:03

I I would want them to know that it's okay to say that you're not okay and you'll get you'll get to the other side of this but it never goes away. Right and talk it out. Talk about it whether it's through relationships with others who have experienced the same thing or whether it's through reaching out to your benefits plan at work or whatever it is to sit down in a room with somebody and say I just I just need to talk this out and I promise you that when you start doing that you will find thoughts will come into your mind that you you you buried thoughts of joy thoughts of happiness and then that create it's incredible but that creates this completely different behavior where you can go out and live life fullest you can even smile and talk about the loss of little Tommy or little Jane to others and people go are you nuts? You're smiling you're happy it's like no he's the biggest blessing and gift of my life let me tell you a story by the way I'm a home chef and a cook and I envision right now Tommy's in the kitchen and we're making pancakes and waffles and he's got batter all over his face and you know he he's giggling and laughing and I'm putting batter in his head hair and we're having this batter fight. We're having the time of our life and as I'm talking to you now look at my face the inflection of the smiles that's where I've come in my life everybody where today I talk seriously but honestly when people ask me about old Tommy I can I can stay with a smile on my on my face and talk about it. And I couldn't do that when I buried it.

SPEAKER_00 55:41

Yeah and it's perfectly fine uh that you can do that and there's no uh shame or guilt or need to explain it away it's your experience and your relationship with him that really matters. Thank you Dr. Tom Duda for just being who you are and for the work that you're about and for the difference that you're making in other people's lives as a result of Tommy and and just everything that you've been through. We're so grateful to know you.

SPEAKER_01 56:11

Well thank you it's been an honor. Appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 56:14

So listeners I hope that this will give some of you some insights some other ways to think about loss and perhaps if you're someone on the external aspects because that's another piece that we're going to get into in this show to really uh maybe hopefully have learned a way to be present with any parents out there or someone in your life who may have lost a child. Thank you for spending this time with me. If this conversation stirred something for you you don't need to make sense of it right away. There's no timeline for understanding and no right way to carry what remains. Beyond the loss exists to honor parents who've lost a son or daughter and all the complexity that this implies and to support the professionals who walk alongside them without comparison judgment or explanation. Wherever you are in the long after you're not required to arrive anywhere else. Until next time take gentle care