The Christian Study Center Experience

John Terrill, Executive Director of Upper House, joins our producer Jesse Koopman to discuss Christian study centers, their missions, and the experiences they bring to the university communities they serve. 

Learn about John Terrill & Upper House

Read John's recent article in Common Good: What Does It Mean To Belong?

With Faith in Mind is produced at Upper House in Madison, Wisconsin and hosted by Director of University Engagement Dan Hummel and Executive Director John Terrill. Jesse Koopman is the Executive Producer. Upper House is an initiative of the Stephen & Laurel Brown Foundation.

Please reach out to us with comments or questions at podcast@slbrownfoundation.org. We'd love to hear from you. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Welcome with Faith in Mind. I'm Jesse Kootman, the show's producer, but today I'm also your host. And today we are putting a spotlight on our own organization. Upper House is a Christian Study Center here in Madison, Wisconsin, and we're learning about study center life as part of our series Christian Education at the Crossroads. To help us explore this topic, we welcome our with faith in mind host and Upper House Executive Director, John Terrell. John has been one of the driving forces of getting Upper House off the ground, and he comes to us from a line of several prominent positions, including Director for the Center of Integrity in Business at the School of Business, Government and Economics at Seattle Pacific University. Before that, he worked with University Christian Fellowship USA as the National Director for Professional Schools Ministries, as well as Campus Minister at Harvard Business School, and University's National Director for MBA Ministry. John lives here in Madison, Wisconsin, with his wife Venja and their daughter Elena. He enjoys writing and speaking on issues related to the Academy, business, faith, and culture. For those of you who don't have the privilege of knowing John like I do and haven't had a chance to get to know him over several years, I can tell you that getting to know him and see him work over the last many years, he's a man of deep integrity, kindness, wisdom, and faith. John, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_02 1:35

Wow, Jesse, thank you for that warm introduction. I really appreciate that. It's great to be here. I I guess you you labeled me as the host. I'm really a co-host and a learner on this podcast. So I've so appreciated learning from you and all the great um expertise you've brought to um with faith in mind and just podcasting in general. So thank you for being a great colleague.

SPEAKER_00 1:56

Oh, well, you're welcome and thanks for the compliment. It has been a genuine joy getting to not just see you from a guest coming to events here now, but to work with you side by side for the last year. It's been a real joy and privilege. So one of the things I'm the most excited about in today's podcast is to get to know you in a different light. So I know you as somebody who functions as executive director. I know you as somebody who's learning about podcasting, but I don't know much about you personally or much about your take on the Christian Study Center movement or what it means to you. Uh, one of the things I want to start with is giving our audience a little bit taste of where you've come from educationally. I know you weren't always a believer. It wasn't something you grew up in the faith and you had an experience in college where you came to know the Lord intimately. Can you tell me a little bit about where in your educational process you met the Lord and how that functioned?

SPEAKER_02 2:54

Yeah, I certainly came from a faith-friendly family. There was no antagonism in my family toward faith, but it wasn't a primary commitment. Um I had um a grandmother that was a pretty um regular church-going grandmother, and we were, you know, somewhat reasonable church attenders, but it really didn't um strike a chord with me on a deep personal soul level until I until after college. I there were seeds uh in college. I remember um seeing a a Greek interfraternity, sorority um Bible study being invited to attend that and really found that to be a worthwhile experience. But nothing really stuck. Uh it was really um in my years after college, uh living in Charlotte, North Carolina, that things clicked for the first time.

SPEAKER_00 3:52

Yeah. So uh was that related to a school elastic experience for you? Or how did you I mean, you talk about a little bit of how you encountered faith in your education experience?

SPEAKER_02 4:03

Yeah. So my my deepening in faith or my sort of conversion experience really is tied up with loss. I'd gone through the loss of a significant dating relationship. I was about 25 and was just at a stage where I was re-evaluating things. Um so my immediate r kind of draw to the church and to a life of faith was through loss and then the warm friendship and fellowship of a group of guys that invited me into their Bible study. And these were guys that were very integrated from a faith professional practice perspective. In fact, a couple of these guys I still convene with, get together with every few years, and we go on retreat together. So we've stayed close friends over these many, you know, several decades now. Um it is many years. I was gonna say many years, but it really is many years. It's been, I'm trying to think, it's been 30 years. So three decades. Um uh this goes back. So a long time. Um but early in my journey, um, you know, in that sort of post-college pre-graduate school experience, I started to get exposed to um some people that were really thinking through faith and and the role that faith should have on our practice and our um commitments within the field of business. So I ended up making a decision to go back and work on my MBA at Northwestern University, and I landed uh at a place where there was a long history of graduate school fellowships that were hosted by a university, and there was a Kellogg, Northwestern MBA uh program fellowship that was made up of students and faculty and administrators from all over the world. And this was a group that was very international, um, very ethnically, racially diverse, and really asking deep questions about what does it mean to be a Christian in business? And how will that influence and affect the way that I lead others, how I follow, how I think about my work, how I think about my customers, um, you know, everybody up and down the supply chain value chain. Uh, and just asking deep questions. So I was exposed to a study center-like experience through Innovarcity grad and faculty ministries. And that was probably, and that was early, and you know, the first year or two of my spiritual deepening Christian journey. And that really turned me on to the possibility and the importance of deep integration of faith, learning, and practice, which are values or ideals that are really important to the study center movement.

SPEAKER_00 6:49

Yeah, let's let's lead into that. So uh we're here to talk about the study center movement and Upper House specifically, and uh the kind of in the topic of Christianity at the crossroads, where do you see study centers fitting into the crossroads concept? So we've talked about in in this series about a lot of different approaches to Christian education. What makes Christian study centers work? Why are they different? What what what gap in the model do they fill, or what need do they they meet that's not being met in some of the other models?

SPEAKER_02 7:26

Yeah, I think study center, well, first of all, I need to sort of and I think our listeners will be well aware of this, but there are major shifts in the tectonic plates of higher education these days. So you have um changing demographics. Yeah. Um, you have what's often referred to as the demographic cliff. Um during the 2008 Great Recession, uh couples um started having fewer children, um, significantly fewer children. And that trend has continued. And those those young people who were born in 2008 are now entering college, I think next year or the year after. I think it's like 20, 2024, 2025. So we're just approaching this drop-off on birth rates. Uh, and so there are fewer students. Um and there and therefore there are fewer Christian students. And so you're finding contraction uh across higher education more broadly uh and then in Christian education. And then just people have been asking these questions for a number of years, but that is what is the value of a Christian of an education or a Christian education? Is it worth the money? And so you have a lot of financial economic pressures as well. And I think in the long run, all of this will be good. It'll force, you know, institutions to really think through what it is that they offer and to get really clear about their value proposition. But right now there's a great shake out that's taking place. Well, study centers step into that and um they offer in many respects um the best of Christian education in a public or private secular higher education context. So if you could take your best model, think of your favorite Christian college. I'm not going to name names, but you know, there are a lot, hundreds literally, of Christian colleges in this country, and uh many of our listeners will have one that stands out to them. Think about that the value that that institution brings through mentoring capacity, through worship experiences, through deep integrative learning, faith, you know, um speaking to the academic disciplines and the academic disciplines speaking to faith. Imagine all of that plopped into uh a flagship public university where you get all the benefits of a huge world-class, you know, massive university. Um that is the melding of the best of two worlds, right? And so study centers um are at that crossroads. They have those deep connections in Christian colleges and universities. Uh, many of the study center staff and employees and directors have had experiences in um Christian colleges and universities. They've also had experiences in public secular universities, but they bring all of those benefits to bear on um the student experience, the faculty experience in a large public context or or private non-religious context.

SPEAKER_00 10:39

Aaron Powell You know, as long as I've been partnering with Upper House uh in various capacities, I've never heard it described quite like that before. And I love that, that whole notion of taking a lot of the gifts and blessings of a Christian college or university and taking some of the wonderful segments of that and and bringing it to a secular campus. And I mean, it's not going to be quite the same thing, obviously, because you can't integrate with the faculty necessarily directly. You can't have uh direct lineage over to their curriculum, but the fact that you can be on campus and providing offerings for people who are looking for it is is really cool. And I've really thought about that way is you're really providing a Christian college experience in a way at a secular university.

SPEAKER_02 11:24

Yeah, and one of the reasons one of the ways this is punctuated is the study centers actually own property. This is a little uh a difference, a significant difference from the parachurch ministries. And again, I'm a big believer in parachurch ministries. I'm a product of one, and I worked for one for 10 years. So I was on university grad and faculty ministry staff for a decade. Um, and so I'm I've I've got deep investment there. But the study centers are a little different because they um they they they actually often, um, I think in almost all cases, own property or rent property on or adjacent to the campus. And they become a real hosting site of lots of um campus ministries, they offer their own programs, they're uh a real center of welcoming and become a physical crossroads of lots of currents of traffic. And so they begin to take on an identity much like a campus building. Um, you know, you literally, if you're here at UW Madison, you know, we're right in the right on East Campus Mall. We're at the crossroads of University Avenue and East Campus Mall, which is really the heart of the old part of campus. And so we're we're right there. In fact, it's a problem. You can't find parking here, especially on a game night. You know, we're so close. So um, but we we tend to have a long-term view of presence, of hospitality, and the study centers really share the vision of their host universities to to come alongside and support the university in its in its achievement of its mission. So we really cheer on the University of Wisconsin. We want the University of Wisconsin to be um to reach all of its aspirations and ideals, and so much of what happens here is good. Um the investment in students, the quality of the training, the commitment to education, the commitment to serve the state, all of these are amazing things that we get behind. Uh and we leaven it um a bit or a lot with our Christian perspective. Um, but we're here for the long term and we're invested for the long term.

SPEAKER_00 13:39

So, John, you've had a pretty diverse Christian experience yourself in terms of your educational life. You have gone through uh public universities, you've gone through private universities, you've worked with Christian college. Um can you give me a little bit about the insights as you've had somebody, or you've been somebody rather that's walked through each aspect of that? We're talking about Christian education at the crossroads. What are some of the pushes and pulls there? What are some of the pros and cons? And then let's apply how that integration works with the study center. So, what are some of the pros and cons of the secular, private, and Christian models that you've experienced personally in terms of your education?

SPEAKER_02 14:20

Wow, that's a really good question and a big question. It is.

SPEAKER_00 14:24

Let's let's define that a little bit. So let's start with just looking at your public education.

SPEAKER_02 14:28

Yeah. Well, one of the things I would say before I, and I'll go to public education, is that I think one of the things as I look back on my own history that was a good was was really sound preparation for the work I'm doing now, is to learn to be comfortable in a lot in in many different environments. So I think whether you work in a Christian college or a public university or somewhere in between, the world is um much more um diverse and pluralistic than it was even a few decades ago, right? The the the kinds of forces that swirl around. And I think, you know, for the good, right? We have just more international students, we have more students of color, we have um, you know, um the the world has really truly come to our doorsteps, right? And and we have gone out into the world. So there's just kind of this wonderful um um mixing of people and cultures that I think has even progressed over um you know the last few decades. So so I think my as I look at my own background, um there is the it was good training ground for a study center because at some level I had to learn to be fluent and agile in those environments. And um and so that that's been helpful. With respect to a public university, what's the benefit or the ch I guess the benefits and challenges of that environment? I think the the challenges would be that um you are confronted with a lot of um a lot of uh ideologies, a lot of uh uh different views about what constitutes the good life or what constitu constitutes life in general.

SPEAKER_00 16:18

Or morality or ethics.

SPEAKER_02 16:19

Or morality or ethics, or even you know, a vision of vocation or profession, you know, what it means to be a person who is working. You know, how do we even look at our work? Is it an occupation? Is it a career? Is it a vocation? I mean, all of these things are going to be a bit different. And you can get all levels of meaning and integration at a public university. So it really depends on the people and the outlook and the perspective. But I do think you're confronted with um maybe more um visible um and contrasting um worldviews or kind of ideologies, maybe um at a at a large public university or a non-religious institution.

SPEAKER_00 17:05

Aaron Powell Yeah, and I think that has pros and cons with it, right? I mean, so we learn about those things. And if we're sheltered and we're not able to experience and see some of these things, it's hard to know how to interact with them when we are exposed to them eventually in our professional lives or in other contexts. So I think there's there's some positives there too, but then what are some of the struggles that are inherent in that? Do you do you see there being struggles to maintain your faith in that in the young people? Do you see where that's a challenge? How do you look at that overall? Where there's obviously pushes and pulls there, there's positives and negatives. How do you see that for students play out?

SPEAKER_02 17:40

Yeah, I think for students it can be a challenge because they they really um they they are influenced deeply by their faculty and um the instruction of faculty and the kind of um environment that faculty create in the classroom for the expression of ideas. And I think there are times, and again, I didn't feel this so much, but I was in college a lot you know a lot of years ago. Um but I do think that it can be, uh and this is often described to me, and maybe I've had some some experience with this too in grad school, which is uh, you know, a few a few years closer to my age now, um, that um that you know that you f you you will feel that opposition. It's hard to at times to sometimes out out yourself as a person of faith, or bring a distinctly faith perspective to bear on a on an academic or professional issue. Uh so I remember in business school discussing cases, and you know, we would uh happily invoke Kant and other philosophers, but um Jesus of Nazareth Nazareth would not have been probably as welcomed uh at the table of ideas. And so you just find that it's harder to express who you are and why you think about the things that you do. Peer pressure is really intense. And so I think you can feel it from your colleagues as well. So I think a lot of students just struggle with being authentic and bringing their whole selves into the classroom. Some faculty in non-Christian colleges and universities welcome that, do a good job of inviting students to bring their whole selves to bear on their classroom conversations and discussions. Others uh don't do a good job. And I think that's where it feels like a bit of a rub for students. Aaron Powell Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:30

So I know we were going to talk about the Christian side, but I think we can really just flip that on its head, right? Some of those inherent weaknesses are strengths in the Christian university, the Christian college.

SPEAKER_01 19:39

Right.

SPEAKER_00 19:39

Um, and probably vice versa. Some of the the strengths of the getting exposure to those ideologies and understanding those contexts and cultures, we sometimes miss. Uh one of the things that we've had highlighted in other episodes that I really was excited about was hearing about the way that a lot of Christian colleges are approaching diversity these days. And they're really seeking to expand upon that. Uh, one thing I want to talk about though is since we're focusing on Christian study centers, and you talked about how they're a partnership with secular colleges or universities. How does that really work? How does that function? So we're we're on a campus, we're in a building, we have property here. How does that partnership really exist? How do people, students, know about a Christian study center? How do they find us? How do they partner with us? And how do we come alongside the university or those students that are seeking to get Christian fulfillment in their secular university?

SPEAKER_02 20:35

So the study centers are all a little bit different, but um I can describe um our situation here, and I think it would apply uh at a lot of levels to other study centers. Um, at a very basic level, we are we have a large space, about 17,000 square feet here on campus, and we have a lot of a lot of open space. And so we open our doors to just general student study. So we have undergraduate students, graduate students that come in and study with us every day. And we create really nice um tabling space and we host um food and um lots of activities during finals week. So literally during finals week, we have you know hundreds of students study with us. A typical day we might have 50 or 100 students come through the door, but literally during finals week, maybe a thousand to fifteen hundred could come through the space. So so we're at at a very basic level, you know, we're open for study. Um, we're open for business, open for study. And a lot of students at, you know, at the most passive level, uh although studying is not passive, but with respect to who we passive interaction, you know, that would be one level. Then we host a lot of groups. Um so we tend to try to um to um pitch a really wide ten here. So we're we work with lots of campus ministries, we invite campus ministries to to benefit from our space, to host meetings here, to host small group, large group, Bible studies, all kinds of things. So we literally stack groups in into the late evening hours, and the groups will do their own thing with their students that self-identify as members of their campus ministry. So all the big groups like crew, intervarsi, navigators, Kialpha, you know, many of them meet here regularly. So that's another way that students experience who we are. And then we host a wide array of our own programming. And the programming could vary from lectures to reading groups to learning cohorts to film discussion to music and worship experiences to we've even had theater in here. It goes back a few years, but to the visual arts. I mean, there's all kinds of ways that we seek to connect with students and faculty and community members. So students might be really actively engaged through our own programming. And then there are two other very particular things that we offer here that are really attractive to students, students. One is we have a pretty vibrant and enduring intern program. So at any given time, we have about five interns and they work a lot of hours for us and actually are face to most of our external guests. I mean, they're really the external handshake and sign of hospitality to most people that come through the doors. And then while they're interning, they also experience a lot of opportunities to study and to build relationships with our staff team and with each other, and they go through a formal program. And then we have a fellows program that is an intentional year-long commitment where the different classes of the fellows program meet for dinner every other Monday night, and then they break off into their individual cohorts or classrooms.

SPEAKER_00 23:52

Trevor Burrus, Jr. What are some of those cohorts? Are they focused on anything in particular?

SPEAKER_02 23:55

Yeah, science and technology, you know, issues of society and justice. We had one this year on the arts. We have one on reading the Bible as uh as a cohesive narrative or as a story. Um we have one that meets every year on a biblical understanding of calling and vocation. So we tend to offer a lot of the same courses, and they're they're you know, they're um immersive experiences. They do retreats together, they read um uh a lot of material together, both contemporary material material and more historic material, classic material that goes back, you know, decades or even centuries. Um they're they're really immersive learning experiences, and we're continuing to grow that experience. So lots of different ways that students experience us. With respect to faculty and administrators, same kind of thing. We don't have them in studying as regularly, but all kinds of programming uh where they come, they don't have a lot of opportunities to have interdisciplinary conversations. So this is something we could talk about, but the a large university like University of Wisconsin has become very segmented. So this is a difference between the small liberal arts college and a large public flagship university. Place like University of Wisconsin, you might work, you might be in one department and work just a hundred feet away from another department, and you will not have any interaction or very limited interaction. And so the faculty really enjoy getting over here because a lot of our programming and offering forces a lot of just really kind of thoughtful, interesting, interdisciplinary, faith-oriented conversations. Aaron Powell Do you see a lot of faculty show up here? They do, and we uh we we have faculty cohorts, um, we're leaning more and more intentionally into um engagement with faculty. We have a big faculty dinner coming up this month uh where we have two speakers, and then most of the most of the main event of the night are short speakers. One is uh uh from a Christian college, the other one is a faculty member here from UW Madison, and they'll give short remarks, 15, 20 minutes each, and then most of the conversation is around tables where faculty are getting to know each other and diving deeply into the issues. So lots of faculty involvement, and then we'd partner with departments. So this is maybe a surprise. Yeah, I didn't know that. Yeah. So we have we we have had um you know, over the years, a number of opportunities or events where we have hosted a speaker and we've partnered with an academic department, and or we've taken our speaker into the academic department and offered that person as a speaker there.

SPEAKER_00 26:38

Aaron Powell I suppose I did know that in a different context. Chandra was just here.

SPEAKER_02 26:41

He was just here and he did spoke um you know on campus uh in an academic department setting and spoke here.

SPEAKER_00 26:48

Yeah, he's a historian and he stopped by his with Eric, one of our staff members here.

SPEAKER_02 26:53

Yeah. So lots of um lots of interesting possibilities and um you know we and and a lot of openness on on the part of faculty and departments to interact with us, even with our uh Christian mission and and and Christian roots here. Yeah, that's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 27:12

So I feel like I've got a pretty good concept for what Upper House is now and how you guys interact. Let's talk a little bit about the broader Christian education landscape and how it fits. So we've talked a little bit about the pros and cons of of a Christian education and s versus secular. Uh we've talked about some of the pros of of what a study center can bring to a secular university. Uh what do you feel like the big gap is in in the the Christian sphere of education from uh youth to adulthood? What do you feel like the biggest gap in Christian education is today?

SPEAKER_02 27:46

Well, there are probably lots of gaps. I think uh one gap would just be biblical literacy. I think um it used to be you c you could uh presume that uh people would have some understanding of the biblical narrative or characters in scripture. So if you if you talked about Moses or David, um people would be able to place that. Um or if you talked about the Garden of Eden, they would know what happened there. Um or Paul's missionary uh endeavors. They would have some sense that Paul was active and extending the sure the gospel out into new parts of the world, right? And and and I think that that has we we can't assume that anymore. Um that we don't have that kind of base knowledge, that sort of intellectual capital, that spiritual capital that used to provide a foundation for a shared story. Uh it wasn't everyone's story, but it was it was a a shared story at a cultural level. You know, even if you didn't sort of profess Christianity, you at least have some of that shared narrative. Um and I think that has diminished. Um so there are there's a role for Sunday school, for churches to just continue to work on that. Um and you know, Christian colleges through their core curriculum and even the things we do here, like in the fellows program, you know, learning the Bible as a story. Right? It helps people remember. If you can teach the Bible as a as a as a story, because it is a story. Yeah. People will remember the story and they can put the pieces together in ways that fit, right? So it it becomes less of a a bunch of facts or people that feel isolated and disconnected, and it now flows more as a story. So that's that's something that I think um is is missing or has changed. I think um another thing um might be that that's just changed that I think uh Christian colleges and study centers can work on, and that is the question of what constitutes the good life. I think there's a lot of um confusion about that these days um and a lot of uh opposition. Um and I might um make statements about what I think leads to a flourishing life, and somebody might vehemently disagree. And and I think we have to get back to a point where we can think in some universal terms about this.

SPEAKER_01 30:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:40

Um so you know, I I want to provide lots of freedom and flexibility for people to bring different perspectives, but I do think there are um visions of the good life that seem to transcend religious traditions and cultures, and let's at least have that conversation. I think Christianity can be a really important participant in facilitating that conversation. Uh it used to be that Christian theology was the queen of the sciences, you know. I uh and it used to really have kind of an important seat at the table of ideas and was was an integrative force around lots of academic conversations. And and that has um that has uh you know disappeared, right? It's not no longer the case in most institutions of of higher learning. But I think there is a role where faith and religion can um can be an important um participant, uh particularly around issues of the good life, meaning, value, purpose. And so I think um I think that's a that's a role that Christian education can play. Those are a couple thoughts right out of the right out of the gate as you ask that big meta question.

SPEAKER_00 31:52

Yeah, I mean it's a really, really challenging question. And I think that that's cot and dealing with the whole notion of Christianity at the or Christian education at the crossroads. It's it's not something that's concrete. There's no like one specific issue we can pinpoint about why Christian education is on the decline on some regards. There are some institutions that are thriving and flourishing, and there's others that are really struggling, and there doesn't seem to always be a commonality within it. All we know is that it has to continue evolving in order to continue to meet the needs of the day.

SPEAKER_01 32:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:24

So with that understood, tell me about why you decided to help start upper house.

SPEAKER_01 32:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:33

When when you were approached and and talked to about the vision of a study center here in Madison, Wisconsin, what got you excited and on board?

SPEAKER_02 32:42

Yeah, well, and there's a lot to that. Um, but I I like challenges. That that's probably the first thing I would say that I that I am I've always been kind of mobilized by a challenge. And I actually don't think it's um as challenging as some might think. I mean, I, you know, I've certainly heard my fair share of stories about UW Madison, and in some ways historically, maybe it is a place that's been um a little hard on faith. But as Dan Hummel, our colleague, has demonstrated and has um and is written in records all over campus on physical structures, um, the role of religion in this institution has has been a significant force.

SPEAKER_00 33:28

Yeah. Um since its inception.

SPEAKER_02 33:30

Since its inception. So um, but the challenge of of bringing the best of Christian thought and theology to bear on the life of a major university is um something that's really compelling to me. From a more personal level, um, and this this is really kind of rooted in my own journey of faith. I want people to live the best life they can live.

SPEAKER_00 33:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:57

I want people to flourish. I want people to make the connection between their faith and their deepest values and religious moorings and the life that they believe God is calling to, that calling them to out in the world. Um, so I see a direct line between Christianity and almost in every field you could study across the street and around us right now. So pick your field, anthropology, sociology, you know, biology. I mean, God's fingerprints are all over these disciplines and fields. And there's a lot of that we can bring as people of faith to bear on the study of whatever it is. But I think these disciplines um also speak to us. Uh it's it is a two-way street. And I think um, you know, God's truth is resident and resonant in all kinds of ways. Um, you know, we have we have the Bible and we have the book of creation, right? We have these two books and um the book of nature, and so I think God's God's um majesty is is revealed in lots of different ways, and it certainly is revealed through academic disciplines. But, you know, really this project for me is uh is really motivated by a desire for people to live an integrated whole life. They don't have to spend the first half of their life trying to gain significance or gain success so that they therefore in the second half of life can be significant, um, that they can live a life of significance and meaning and value and purpose and calling and vocation all the way through from day one. I love that.

SPEAKER_00 35:44

Um I love the role that we play at Upper House in uh kind of pushing that notion. And we we focus so much on vocation here. Like what is vocation? How do you find your vocation and what is God calling you to through vocation and so forth? I love that that's such a big emphasis here.

SPEAKER_02 35:59

Yeah, it really is. And I and I think vocation is not like this perfect pathway and like a single razor's edge, you know, pathway. Vocation is about a recognition of the needs in the world. I mean, this is sort of Frederick Biegner's, you know, original quote, you know, our sort of deepest longings lining up with the greatest needs in the world. And he says it much more eloquently. But I do think and it and it unfolds over time. So if I look back on my own life, I see how over time I've gotten clearer about that and opportunities ha have presented themselves for me to continue down that path.

SPEAKER_00 36:37

Yeah, and you talked about the biblical narrative a little while ago in terms of uh helping us understand that. One of the things that we try to do here at Upper House is understand the Bible in its full context. I think one of the things that I love about it too is that we see all sorts of different vocations through that biblical narrative and people living out God's will through all sorts of different concepts of what God's calling people to, whether it be a farmer, whether it be a missionary, whether it be a prophet, whether it be a pastor, whether it be a teacher, whether it be uh an investment banker. Yeah. I mean, let's let's throw it out there.

SPEAKER_02 37:11

So, yes, I think all of these are ways uh to order uh God's world and to bring you know flourishing to others. And I think we we need to be about helping people gain an imagination for that. So um, you know, investment banking is about moving capital uh to the most important needs, right? That's one way to define it. What does it mean to move capital efficiently and to real needs? Um you could define and describe investment banking in that way. And if you had that vision for it, it would change the way you thought about it and probably the way you practiced it.

SPEAKER_00 37:43

Absolutely. And I think this is going back to the notion of crossroads. I think Christian education is a wonderful thing to bring to that. And I think that's one thing the secular university does not do well, is help us to understand the larger calling. It helps us to understand a lot of the concepts and the thoughts involved. But most students these days don't take philosophy of ethics or they don't take these courses that talk about not just how to do something, but what is the right way to do it.

SPEAKER_02 38:13

Yeah. And that's, I think, a value add of the study centers. That's where the Christian college meets public flagship university. I think in the professionalization of higher education, you know, um, and and and that's across the board, that we try to help students make choices about their career paths earlier and earlier and get them on a particular pathway. And so there's less time to experiment, there's less time to take courses because we're just curious and interested. And so in many of you know, curricula, many curricula, um some of those exploratory courses and and semesters um get forced out. And uh that's probably less true in the liberal art setting, but but it would be more true at a place like UW Madison. So creating spaces and places and conversations where students can ask those big questions and wrestle with philosophy and fields that they might, theology, fields they might not otherwise come in contact with is one of the real values and benefits of a study center.

SPEAKER_00 39:21

Aaron Powell I think that's great. How would you compare that to, say, Innervarsity or other student organizations that you've been a part of in the past or that you've uh partnered with in the past? How how do you differentiate the two? So do you consider yourself another para-church ministry that's on campus, or do you feel like study centers are something separate and different?

SPEAKER_02 39:41

Aaron Powell Yeah, I think that study centers, um all the all the parachurch campus groups take seriously the life of the soul. Um I think they're all about spiritual formation at some level. Um I think they are also about serving. They tend to have um uh commitments to justice and helping students um connect, see the value of service in the world. So I think those that's often there as well. I think the distinctive for study centers would be the elevation of the life of the mind. And it doesn't mean that we just sit around by ourselves, you know, and pontificate. I the life of the mind is really about the renewing of the mind. It's about um, you know, it's about knowledge, but knowledge with a purpose. Uh, it's about knowledge to bring a better life for oneself, but for the world. It's it's about learning as exploration. It's about a deeper understanding of theology and God's ways and understanding the mind of God. I mean, those are those are um corollaries, I think, to the to the life of the mind. I think the some of the parachurch campus ministry groups don't hit that one quite as strong. I think that's not that's probably the weakest link. Um kind of the the weakest hinge.

SPEAKER_00 41:11

Yeah, and we're of course generalizing here too. Every organization is different and every subchapter of every chapter of every organization is going to be different, et cetera, too. So yeah, I fully acknowledge that we can't over-generalize and we can't make statements for everything. But no, I think that's a a fair assessment. I mean, we all have our different priorities when we come to these para-church ministries. Um, I remember when I was in college, we talked about how uh uh there was one organization, I don't want to name names here, but there was one organization that was like for new Christians and new believers. And when you were first coming to college and you were experiencing God for the first time, you went and explored it in that context. And then when you became a junior, you were really talking about your faith, you moved on to a different, different parachurch work.

SPEAKER_02 41:52

I think some of that happens. And then I think here in and this is uh kind of I I think para-church ministry leaders just have to do a lot of pastoral care. So the mental health issues issues are really demanding. We do this at some level, but we we tend to be a bit more of a specialist here. And I think when you're running a sort of a general campus ministry, you know, you're caring for students pastorally, there are mental health mental health issues, you know, you're helping students pick up the pieces after broken dating relationships. I mean, you're you're sort of, you know, you're you're helping students sort through all kinds of life decisions. It's a little bit like general, you know, like being a general practitioner, physician or something, right? You kind of have to do it all, you've seen it all. We're a little bit more of a specialist physician. Yeah, we have a particular focus here, and study centers, you know, tend to do a lot of a lot of the general kinds of things, but but focus in a bit more.

SPEAKER_00 42:53

Yeah, I'd say if there was one outlining criteria that I would make, and I would love to your reflection on this, is we are focused a lot more on education. So you're talking about the life of the mind, but specifically about education as it relates to how to relate to God academically. How do we think about God? How do we interact God with our intellectual being? And being on a university that's dedicated specifically to higher pursuits of education, we tend to focus on that notion of propagating that intellectual self in context of our faith, as opposed to just helping us to interact with the relationship side of God.

SPEAKER_02 43:32

Yeah, I think we care about it all because we I think you're right. We we see people as whole people, and you know, we're people that are made, you know, that thrive on relationship, and we thrive because we feel belonging and we feel loved, and we're growing and we have purpose. So those are all dimensions of what it means to have a thriving life. But I do think we very intentionally are trying to connect faith to the life of the university and the learning. Part of what it means to be at a university. And then I would say also the life after university. So life in the guilds and the professions. So that's a big part of what we do here as well. What does it mean, not just to thrive in your economics class and think about the integration or the connection points of faith and economics, but then what does it mean to be a deeply integrated person after you graduate, when you take that first job in banking, commercial banking per se, you know, if that's if that's your job. What does that look like? And what are helpful productive steps as you transition into that role of life?

SPEAKER_00 44:39

Absolutely. I I personally didn't have this as an option when I was in college. There were there was no Christian study center here at UW when I when I was in college. And having it come onto the scene eight years ago when I was long past my education career, I still have really enjoyed the programming here. And I felt welcome here as a just a community member who is engaged in faith and the business world. And I I love that a lot of the content here we see multiple generations. Um I think it's a great atmosphere for me to meet people that are my elders that I can learn and grow from, and also that are my juniors that that are in college or even younger in some cases, where I can mentor and I can I can lead and I can be a part of their lives in that capacity. It's been a wonderful gift that I never thought of when I thought of Christian study centers being on campuses.

SPEAKER_02 45:28

Yeah. Well, no, that gets us excited when we see, you know, disciplines, interdisciplinary conversations, but also multiple generations, right? Where you have college student and um retired members of our community that have, you know, they're in their 80s, you know, but are real invested still in the community and learning and they're back to to kind of soak in the pres, you know, in community and in under the learning of speakers and things like that. So yeah, we we really celebrate all of that and we love it when we have really mixed crowds like that.

SPEAKER_00 46:01

And it's not uncommon. I love that. It's very, very common here. Right, right. Um so I want to kind of boil a couple of things down and let's let's get to some distilled points and then let's wrap up a little bit. So number one, uh so if Christian education is at a crossroads and we need to evolve. And study centers are something that uh we see historical side of things, we've we've talked about it in some of the other interviews. Uh but uh you know it's also one of those things that's newer on the the public scene that we we're seeing in in major education facilities today. Uh where do you see it going? So if if the Christian education is at the crossroads and Christians and study centers are part of that transition or that pivot point, where do you see it going? Do you see this happening more? Do you see it happening less? Do you see it shifting, change any specific direction?

SPEAKER_02 46:53

Aaron Powell Yeah. Since I when I started eight years ago, there were about 20 study centers. There's study centers, there are about 40 now. So in eight years, um the number of study centers has doubled. Um for some that might seem like, oh, that's not that significant growth. But when you're talking about physical property and the kind of investment these takes, it's actually pretty significant growth. Uh it's not like you're just spawning a reading group or something like that. You've got real investment to get these things uh going. Uh and I think there are a number of study centers that are in the works. So I could imagine in another eight years uh being at 100 or 120 study centers, you know, at least doubling. Um I wouldn't be surprised uh if if it doubles every eight years. Um I don't know what that's not really more. Is it Moore's Law? I can't remember what the what the I'm gonna really confuse our parallel to Moore's Law, right? There's a parallel here, um, but I I've got my ratios and percentages all off. Um so I think study centers will continue to you know to the numbers will increase. Um there's enthusiasm for this. There's a new study center that just started at University of Michigan in the last year. And there wasn't much happening there a few years ago because we were involved in trying to get something started. And then very organically, uh it just sort of sprung to life. And I know it didn't just spring to life because there's been people there, faithful people and others who have been working there for many years who have longed for a study center, but it now has taken physical route. So I think we'll see study centers um continue to magnify the numbers and so forth, their reach. Um, I think we'll see some contraction in Christian higher education. I think the colleges, Christian colleges that remain, will get um clearer and clearer about their mission and probably stronger. Um, I think the parachurch ministries are also going through a little bit of a challenging time. I think COVID was really hard on many of them with numbers. And I think we'll hear about that in our in this series. Um, but they're recovering and I think they're getting clearer about their offerings. I mean, one of the things that came out of this was just hybrid offerings. I mean, I know Innervarsity grad and faculty ministries, faculty ministry thrived during COVID. Uh, and it was an environment where faculty were really glad to gather virtually and had more time to do that, and so their numbers went up significantly. Um, so I think there's a possibility, but I think the next 10, 20 years are gonna be um really dramatic with respect to change. And so it it will, even as we speak today, there are um, you know, there are a couple Christian colleges that are really on the precipice right now and probably will dissolve at the end of the semester. So it's a rapidly changing environment. I think the outlook probably for parachurch ministries and Christian colleges is a little less clear. I think in the long run they will thrive, um, but they're gonna have to reinvent themselves some in some ways. Yeah. I think the outlook for study centers is quite bright.

unknown 50:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:10

So as you were talking about the demographic cliff and the consolidation of education, where more and more large institutions are growing and more and more small institutions are shrinking.

SPEAKER_01 50:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:19

Yeah. Well, where do people go to get their faith life filled? There are the paraturch organizations, there are churches that are campus-based, et cetera. But that's that's talking about the crossroads and where we see our study centers growing. Is that is that kind of the relationship you're seeing there? Yeah, I think. And that's why there's this all of a sudden growth and need for study centers?

SPEAKER_02 50:39

So I think I think Christian study centers really, I think the one of the reasons I'm optimistic about their um future is that they can really be important bridge builders. Um I think they can unite, uh, serve as a uniting force on campus by serving as a bridge across lots of different campus ministry organizations. And I think they can reach faculty and build relationships with faculty in non-Christian, non-religious colleges and universities while they're building important relationships with Christian faculty at Christian colleges and universities. And many times they can, in many occasions, they introduce faculty across those dividing lines. Yeah. So there's lots of stories I could tell about faculty who are doing amazing faculty doing amazing work here, that don't know a colleague, someone that they would love to know serving in a Christian college or university, and vice versa, somebody serving in a Christian college or university that doesn't have a natural opportunity to meet a faculty member working in a place like UW Madison. The worlds don't often cross or collide. And um we can help facilitate that. And I think when that happens, there's a lot of um possibility in those relationships. They begin to, they meet each other, they find each other, they share they realize they have shared intellectual interests, they have a shared passion for the world, and they begin to build a relationship that, you know, can have a long-term impact uh for good in the world. Awesome.

SPEAKER_00 52:20

Well, thank you so much, John. I want to end with uh a question of hope. Yeah. Where do you see, whether you want to go with a study center route or Christian education in general, where do you see the biggest opportunities for God to move in Christian education today to advance his kingdom and his objectives in education?

SPEAKER_02 52:44

Yeah, I so I I think God is at work in these places. I've always thought that um I think part of it is us recognizing um his spirit at work in these settings. Um so when I worked at Harvard Business School, um I was amazed at how often I was reminded of the bigness of God and God's ability to um transform lives, transform institutions, you know, instill a vision that would truly form and reform a person over a lifetime. Um and it was a tough setting in some respects to live out your faith. But in other respects, it was a place where God's spirit was really active. And I and and there was a strong community of of Christians in the business school, and and and they helped me um discern God's spirit at work, and I in turn probably had a role in helping them discern God's spirit at work. So I think God longs to move in the lives of faculty and students and administrators, and I think a big part of that is um is having eyes to see and ears to hear. And and I think we need to remind ourselves, and we need uh a community to help us get better at seeing God at work. And where can that happen? Well, it can happen through a campus ministry that's flourishing, it can happen through God's common grace that provides insight to a researcher that makes a breakthrough on cancer research. Uh or an economics professor who builds a new model for projecting um market demand. I mean, I'm just thinking of these are all things that and tools and knowledge, when rightly used, can bring flourishing to the world. Um now the problem is they're sometimes not rightly used, they're misused, right? But that these are all signposts of God's grace, his care for us, his love for us, that he bestows on us the ability to get better, to gain more insight and knowledge, to relieve um suffering, to bring insight, to um build better products, to um offer better engineering and design possibilities. I mean, these are all signs of God's grace. So if our eyes are open and our ears are attentive, um, we can begin to see these things and celebrate these things. And I think sometimes they they stay in the realm of common grace and they provide um benefit to large uh segments of our population, and we can celebrate that as God's goodness. And then I think there are other times where um there's real kind of inner soul transformation.

SPEAKER_01 55:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 55:50

Um people have changed hearts, they begin to look at the world differently, they begin to take on a new definition of the good life and what it means to be a person who serves and loves God and loves others and loves oneself. Those are things to celebrate as well. And I think all of those things happen in a place like the University of Wisconsin-Madison. And we see them on a daily basis, even in an hourly by-hourly basis. But we have to remind ourselves that God's at work in all of those things. We shouldn't just celebrate the conversion or the commitment to walk with Jesus or the deepening of one's faith to commit to a life of missionary service or whatever. Those are all things to celebrate. Those are wonderful expressions of following God. We ought to also celebrate um commitments to excellent research and laboratory work and life out in the professions. Those are things to celebrate. The world needs all of that. And if we could get all of that working, um, you know, there would be great transformation for all of us.

SPEAKER_00 57:04

Um I think that's a great word to end on. To have us all take a step back to practice witnessing the goodness and glory of God and what he's already doing.

SPEAKER_01 57:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:17

And then make space to acknowledge it.

SPEAKER_01 57:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:19

And to speak of study sitters, I think that's one thing that we do pretty well.

SPEAKER_01 57:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:23

Especially here at Upper House.

SPEAKER_02 57:24

Well, it puts a new spin on witnessing, doesn't it? It's not just about a proclamation, it's about witness or seeing or understanding at a deep level, God's presence. So it maybe you've given me a new insight about how to think about witnessing these days.

SPEAKER_00 57:40

Aaron Powell Well, John, thank you so much, not just for our conversation today, but for all the work that you've done in Upper House and in the Christian Study Center movement and all the goodness you've brought to my life and our friendship and our relationship. Thanks, Jesse. It's been a joy to be with you today.

SPEAKER_02 57:53

I'm glad you're on the team. Likewise. Thanks for joining us. If you've enjoyed today's podcast, be sure to subscribe and give us a rating on your favorite podcast app. Also, be sure to check out our upcoming events on upperhouse.org and our other podcast Upwards, where we dig deeper into the topics our in-house guests are passionate about. With Faith in Mind is supported by the Stephen and Laurel Brown Foundation. It is produced at Upper House in Madison, Wisconsin, hosted by Dan Hummel and John Terrell. Our executive producer and editor is Jesse Koopman. Please follow us on social media with the handle at UpperHuse UW.