Epistemology: Integrating Faith and Truth In Education

Stan Wallace, President & CEO of Global Scholars, joins John Terrill to talk about the integration of faith in the secular university. 

Learn about Stan Wallace & Global Scholars

Check out Stan's Podcast: Thinking Christianly.

With Faith in Mind is produced at Upper House in Madison, Wisconsin, and hosted by Director of University Engagement Dan Hummel and Executive Director John Terrill. Jesse Koopman is the Executive Producer. Upper House is an initiative of the Stephen & Laurel Brown Foundation.

Please reach out to us with comments or questions at podcast@slbrownfoundation.org. We'd love to hear from you. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:05

Welcome to the With Faith in Mind podcast and our current series, Christian Education at the Crossroads. I'm John Terrell, one of the hosts, and I am excited today to welcome Stan Wallace, president and CEO of Global Scholars. Stan, welcome to With Faith in Mind. Thanks, John. It's an honor to be here. I've been looking forward to this. Well, I'm looking forward to it as well. I'm going to get into our relationship, uh, which goes back, I think, 22 or 23 years now. So we'll have some stories to tell as we go along here, Stan. I hope uh you won't uh disclose too much about me as we as we press into this. Um let me give our listeners a little bit of background about Stan because I think it's interesting in its i i you know your career path has been really interesting in your service uh in ministry, but I think it will also um this background will shed light on our conversation as well because you've you've worn a lot of different hats over the years. Stan began serving in ministry with Campus Crusade for Christ, now Crewe, in 1985. In 1999, he founded Crewe's academic initiative to aid faculty in integrating biblical truth into their research, publishing, and teaching. In 2001, he joined University Christian Fellowships Graduate and Student Faculty Ministries, serving as National Director of Faculty Ministry. He also established the Emerging Scholars Network to help students prepare to serve Christ as university professor. So, Stan, our relationship probably goes back to 2001. Yep, that's right. It was easy to mark that. I was like, as I was thinking about this preparing, I was like, how long have I known Stan? And it was it was helpful to see your the date that you joined Innovarsity, because that would be the beginning of our friendship. In 2010, um, Stan joined Global Scholars as executive vice president, and then he was appointed president and CEO in 2014. Uh, Stan holds a Bachelor of Science in Secondary Education from Miami University, which is a really great university, um, and uh MA in philosophy and ethics from Talbot School of Theology at Biola University and a Doctor of Ministry in Engaging Mind and Culture, also from Talbot School of Theology at Biola, where you studied under uh Dr. JP Moreland. Right. So that'll be interesting to some of our listeners. Um, Stan's taught undergraduate and graduate courses in apologetics, ethics, and Christian thought, as well as published in professional and ministry journals. He's contributed to several books and edited several others on the topics uh that I've disclosed um in his bio. Uh Stan and his wife Lori live in Kansas, Olatha, Kansas. Um had to work on that pronunciation, and they have adult children.

SPEAKER_04 2:52

Southwest corner of Kansas City.

SPEAKER_03 2:54

The southwest corner of Kansas City. Okay. Um, which is a Kansas City beautiful city, but a sprawling city. Every time I'm here, I can't ride. I don't I'm I'm always surprised on how many miles you can log going from one side to the other. Um Stan, you're passionate about your family, your kids, um travel, reading, but I didn't realize how crazy about football you are. Um I gotta hear a little story about this. You enjoy playing football, watching football, talking football, reading football. I mean, what is everything related to? I think so.

SPEAKER_04 3:30

I mean, I I I I I used to love to get out and play. Those uh those days are long gone. So now I enjoy uh uh watching a lot more than playing. And uh and it doesn't hurt to have a son who is more passionate than I am, and so I just try to keep up with Ryan, my my uh 23-year-old.

SPEAKER_03 3:50

Um good. So you guys you you do it as a family. And I'm assuming you're a big Kansas City football fan.

SPEAKER_04 3:58

It's hard to live in Kansas City and not be a Chiefs fan. Okay. All right. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 4:03

We'll let that go.

SPEAKER_04 4:05

Um but I did live in Milwaukee, so I'm still a Packers fan. I got that up to go.

SPEAKER_03 4:12

Well, Stan I'm excited to have you on today. Um, and you bring a perspective that I think is a really helpful perspective, and that's an international perspective. And I wonder if just right out of the gate here today, if you could tell us a little bit about the work of global scholars. I'd like to start there and then we'll dive back and do a little bit um a little bit more about kind of you, but um tell us about global scholars. What is the what is the work that that you do um with global scholars? What is their mission in the world?

SPEAKER_04 4:42

Sure. Our calling is to equip Christian professors to have a redemptive influence among their students, colleagues, their universities, and their academic disciplines. Uh we do that in a global context. So we're we're in 92 countries. Uh working in uh pluralistic university contexts. So quote unquote secular, though I don't actually like that word. I don't think anything in God's creation is secular, but um for for lack of a better term, those schools that don't require students to sign a statement of faith. So we even work in quote unquote Christian colleges and universities where the student population would be diverse.

SPEAKER_03 5:24

Yeah. So Stan, as you know, we've been in this long series exploring um Christian education at the crossroads. And we wanted to bring you on because you do bring this global perspective. I mean, you have a deep um set of experiences in the United States, um teaching, working as a college pastor, um, working with faculty, but then you turned your attention more globally. Um we've also in this series um had a conversation with Shirley Rules, um, with um good friend of mine. Yeah, and I want to, I want uh, I'd like for you to just and and look for our listeners, um Shirley is the the executive director or the CEO of um International Network for Christian Higher Education, uh the acronym INCH. And Stan, I wonder if you could just differentiate their work from the work of global scholars.

SPEAKER_04 6:16

Absolutely. That's an easy one. That's uh where we have such a deep partnership. They work in those can those colleges and universities that are faith-based that require students to sign a statement of faith.

SPEAKER_03 6:31

Right.

SPEAKER_04 6:31

So we're on two sides of the same street. And so we find a lot of common cause. For instance, they do conferencing a lot around the world, and though most of it is geared toward those who are in a Christian college or university setting, there there tends to be quite a bit of the conversation that's relevant for Christian professors in pluralistic universities. And then we'll have a separate track that focuses on more uh distinctive issues that we want to address with them. So a lot of opportunities to work together. They do great work and it's just been a great partnership.

SPEAKER_03 7:06

So, Stan, I I want to understand kind of the model of your ministry, the Global Scholars Ministry. I know it's changed over the years and it's evolved. Um, in what ways has it evolved?

SPEAKER_04 7:18

Sure. We were founded in 1986 by a gentleman who wanted to be sent by a missions organization to teach in a pluralistic university uh in a religious studies department. And he couldn't find anybody to send him. So he founded our organization and developed a board that sent him. So for our first uh 25 years or so, we were a sending agency where we would help Christian professors, mostly from the U.S. or North America, who wanted to teach abroad, find positions, and then help them transition and and flourish there. Well, we uh we found there were a lot of changes afoot. Oh, I don't know. At least, at least when I came on board in 2010, I think they predate me by some some number of years, but uh there were less and less positions available for Westerners. I think there's some geopolitical uh currents afoot there. Uh, but also there was much more access via the internet to the positions that were available. So there was just less and less need of us to do what we were founded to do. Right. At the same time, over the years, and this goes back to when our founder first went to Nigeria in 1988, two years after our founding, uh he he met Christian professors who were Nigerians teaching there. And they said to him, Well, how can we be a part of your group? Uh we'd like to be in a community with other Christian scholars and have access to some resources and other things. And the answer was, Well, you you you can't we we send people, we don't help those who are already in university posts in their own country. And then the next question was, well, then who helps people like me? And and the answer was, well, you know, outside of a very few countries that actually have ministries focused on faculty and pluralistic universities like the US, uh, Australia, Czech Republic, a few places do, but in in in general, there are no ministries in most countries that help Christian scholars who are already in universities in their own country to flourish and fulfill their calling. Uh and so long story short, as we had more and more people come to us and say, I'd like to be part of you. Can I? And we kept having to say, we don't have kind of any way that you could do that. Uh our board made a decision in about 20 uh 2008, uh, that we need to think about how do we serve those indigenous scholars around the world. And that was actually a big part of what the Lord used to bring me to Global Scholars because it's been part of my vision for a long time. So we transitioned uh formally then in 2019, took about nine years to get to a position where we could formally transition and fully transition. And since then we have been fully uh engaged in equipping Indigenous scholars around the world, including scholars in North America in partnership with University Faculty Ministry and Consortium of Christian uh study centers and others. So uh that's that that that's the focus, and that's the sort of the history of how we got here.

SPEAKER_03 10:36

Yeah, that makes sense. Um so I want to explore you used the word flourishing. I wanted to explore that. You know, uh you you you used you connected indigenous uh professors, um you you want to help them flourish in their in their work, in their scholarship. I wonder if you could uh paint a picture of that. What does that look like? When a when a a Christian faculty member is flourishing, um what dimensions are are really operative? Uh in what ways are they flourishing? And maybe, you know, maybe there's some nuance to the to how you would respond to that. But but generally, what are you aiming for when you work with faculty to help them really really do well um in their calling?

SPEAKER_04 11:22

Absolutely. Uh well the first thing uh to say that's important is the uh the primary place that we think they are uh to uh to to be involved to flourish as believers is in their local church. So we would hope that that's first and foremost. But most local churches, in fact, probably maybe with one or two exceptions, uh every local church is is not able to uh to to to to address the unique needs a Christian professor has. These are unique challenges, opportunities, uh areas of development that are related to that specific area of service and engagement. And so uh so our call is to find and help scholars flourish in fulfilling their calling in the academic sphere, uh, and in a sense, uh serve the their local church to help equip them in that way that their local church isn't able to. And um, and and so really it's Ephesians 4 12 played out in the academic context to be equipped for the work of ministry. What is it that God is calling you to at this place, at this time, through this position? And we have uh, interestingly enough, discovered there are at least five key areas that around the world, no matter what country a professor is in, tend to be the same five areas that that they they say, hey, I really need to develop in these areas to fully flourish both spiritually and in terms of having a redemptive influence in my university. And I'll list them for you quickly. Uh nurturing Christian maturity in the academic context, so spiritual formation related to challenges that are unique to the academic call and context, uh, integrating biblical truth into research, publishing, teaching. Third, developing uh ministry and leadership skills, so sort of the skills side of thing, whether you're in a leadership role in the university or having opportunities to uh to share your faith with students as those questions come up, developing the skills in that. Fourth, relating to different cultural backgrounds. Of course, if you're teaching in a different culture, that's key. But the fact is, most of our universities these days uh draw students from the world. So inevitably you'll be engaging students who are from different cultures, as well as colleagues, uh as well as uh the the cultural difference in ages. It doesn't take too many years at a grad school before you realize that uh my students aren't like me anymore, they they they come from a different quote unquote world, so cultural engagement in very you know, various ways is important. And fifth, cultivating professional excellence, which uh often is more focused on excellence in the classroom. As you know, the research PhD focuses on being an excellent researcher, but not as much on being excellent in teaching, and so that's the fifth area we do a lot of our work to help uh help equip Christian scholars and to be effective in their calling.

SPEAKER_03 14:42

Yeah. So is it fair to say that a lot of your focus is on the individual or or are you also focused on institutions? You talked about the church and helping to equip the church. I, you know, primarily working with faculty who are serving in in non-religious, you know, secular institutions, maybe there's less opportunity to shape institutions, but but that may not be true. How how would you react to that statement?

SPEAKER_04 15:10

No, you're right. And that's one of the other ways we are different different from inch, is that our focus is on the individual scholar. We don't have any emphasis at the institutional level, whether it be with a university or a uh a denomination of a church, uh a church uh church denomination, we we aren't engaged at that level. We're engaged in equipping the individual professor.

SPEAKER_03 15:35

Right, right. So we think a lot about that here um in our work at Upper House. And I I want to take advantage of you as a philosopher, a Christian philosopher, and I uh you know, because I I think it relates. Um, and I know your background in philosophy informs the way you think about Christian education. Um, and I want to ask that question how can philosophy uh help us think about Christian education?

SPEAKER_04 16:02

That's a great question. It's a question I think every Christian scholar needs to ask, but also every pastor and uh ministry leader who's engaged somehow in the university. Uh uh for for me, I start with Colossians 3, 23 and 24. Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart as working for the Lord, not for human masters, since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving. So the question then is well, what does that look like if the place you work is a university? And I think it means being excellent. In other words, working with all your heart and being as good as you can be in through the three areas you're you're you're called to be excellent in as as as a professor. Teaching, research, and service. So excellence in teaching. And we can talk a lot more about each of these. There's a lot of detail, but I think that has uh has a a lot. Aristotle has a lot to say about that. He talks about in his um his book Rhetoric, about the three areas that make one good in teaching, the logos, the ethos, and the pathos, right? Yeah, so the logos, the the the the data and arguments being presented are sound and good and solid. Uh you know your stuff. The ethos, though, there's there there's there's a uh a level of credibility and trust students uh can have in you so that they actually can understand and believe what you say. And then there's the pathos, it's engaging the students at the emotional level, helping them make the connections and see why this stuff's important. And um and so that I think is what an excellent teacher is, someone who is engaging in all three areas logos, ethos, and pathos. And I think there are some biblical slash theological underpinnings to each of those, even though those weren't what Aristotle was drawing on. I think they're very consistent with uh a number of things in scripture I'd love to talk about, but but but but let me go on when you get to research. Uh I it's also excellence in research, and and that um that has to do with not only doing your research uh extremely well technically, but also integrating in the right ways, and that again is a conversation, but in the right ways, biblical truth into that area you're working in. Uh and I think that happens in three different ways the questions that are asked, the way uh data is interpreted, and uh the applications that are made of findings. So it's excellence there, and thirdly, excellence in service. Yeah. Whether one's a department chair or a dean or a provost or president of university or what have you, it's it's it's it's leading like Jesus led, serving like Jesus served, treating others with respect, honor, helping them succeed, uh, you know, all of the biblical mandates of how do you serve others well, especially when you have some role of authority or leadership in in that context?

SPEAKER_03 19:18

Aaron Powell Yeah, that's really helpful. That's uh uh really helpful for um even those of us who don't work primarily in academia to think about those those three categories. I'd like to go to research though. You talked about different questions, interpreting data differently, I think. And what was the third? Um how it applies. How it applies. Can you give an example of how you might press or challenge a faculty person to think again about those three categories? Um I'd like to just press into that because I I I do think that you know our faith does prompt our shared faith does can and should prompt different kinds of questions. And I just I'd love a story about uh how you or um global scholars works with faculty to to really press into the research part of of their work.

SPEAKER_04 20:14

Great. Yeah, let me start actually by a meta-level nuance uh because I do speak often about the importance of integrating faith and scholarship, and sometimes I get a pushback, and the pushback is well, uh all God's creation is already integrated, so there is no need for integration. That's a misnomer. We we we need to dispense with that idea. And and what I want to say is yes and no, and it turns out an important distinction by what one means by integration. Uh by integration, some who have this critique are referring to a, and I'll use a technical philosophical term, metaphysical reality, a reality in metaphysics, in the way things are, in the order of being. That that the fact of the matter is, this is all God's creation. There's a deep integrity to all things because Jesus, as we're told in Colossians, holds all things together. So, yes and amen. I agree with that. When I use, and and others who who talk about integration use the term, we're using it in an epistemological sense. Epistemology has to do with with knowledge. How do we know or or how are we justified to make a claim that we know something? It's the order of knowing versus the order of being. And in that realm, in integration is really reintegrating what has become disintegrated in the Enlightenment, especially, where there was a bifurcation of faith and reason, of biblical uh theological truth from the different academic disciplines. And so there's a deep, deep, deep disintegration that needs to be addressed. That's what I mean by integration. Yeah, that's good. So, with that as sort of a meta-level, that's what I meant. Uh, here are in those uh three phases where, for example, it might come to play in terms of questions asked. Uh there currently is a big debate over the extent of artificial intelligence. Uh, and in fact, what are the limitations that might be appropriate to impose if there are any such limitations that ought to be imposed? Well, uh, that's a question that has deep implications for human flourishing, uh, for the nature of the person, for uh what a civil society is, all these questions. So, scholars who are working in all those fields who are believers, I think uh have a mandate, if you will, uh to do their work hardly as under the Lord and address the issues they have special expertise to address uh related to those very important, very timely questions that are being asked. So it has to do with what kind of research projects are you going to take on. So I would encourage professors, let's say, in oh, uh in in a field that uh of of of um artificial intelligence, yeah, you could do some research over here and something that has to do with better processes to I don't know, improve coding or something. I don't know enough about the field to say. But but would you consider this type of research project? Because here are the implications of thinking about these issues from a Christian perspective and bringing some scholarship forth that would promote the common good as unto the Lord in this area. Or let me give you another example from uh a while ago. I've got a uh a friend from many years ago, sociologist who uh who began thinking about his discipline from a Christian perspective. He was focused in criminology, a subdiscipline of sociology. And uh he was working in the field of recidivism, uh, you know, the percentage of of uh people who had been in prison and were released that went back into the system. And he said, and a colleague of mine was in this conversation with him to help him kind of think this through. Uh it wasn't me, but uh, but but he came to to say, you know what? I think I ought to research whether faith in Christ really makes a difference in recidivism rates. So he had a very clear hypothesis, he had a way to gather data. He did, he ended up publishing it in a major journal that in fact showed that those inmates who actually did come to us uh a genuine faith commitment to Christ had a much lower percentage chance of entering back to the system after they were released. So he just asked the right questions that were born out of his Christian worldview that then led him into certain research projects that then had an implication, as that then was picked up and used in other contexts for again the common good, which is part of the call of the scholar.

SPEAKER_03 25:11

So that that is so helpful. And um, you know, I I think what you're driving at, Stan, is um you know, the this modeling good questions and the courage to ask good and the right questions. And and I think if we can challenge, and I'm assuming this is the way you think about this, if if we can challenge faculty to to exercise courage to pursue different and maybe better questions, uh, not only does that um influence the common good, it serves all of society, but it actually serves students well as well, because they see something a little different. So, Stan, you talked about kind of three areas where scholars can integrate their faith in their work. Um love to hear a little bit more about the the final two. Okay, great, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 26:00

So in addition to the questions asked, there's how is the data interpreted once the the data set is in? Uh does theological truth understanding help me understand this data or adjudicate between different interpretations at all? Uh for instance, uh I I know of a scholar studying early childhood education and started to notice there was a uh a link in the data between uh broken families and their their performance in the K6, you know, the primary uh context, education context. And so because of that, she uh she she she obviously thought about the biblical context of the importance of the family, the centrality of the family, how families shape people, and uh and it helped her interpret the data contrary to other things that she could have drawn from the data that might have had to do with, well, and any range of other socio-cultural contexts or or factors. And and it and it led her then to start doing more research on the family and how to strengthen families in underserved communities such that educational performance could be enhanced. So again, it was looking at the data, saying I think I see a correlation between what I know from scripture and what I'm seeing here in the data, and how can that then circling back, generate additional questions I could research and press into that are more focused? And third, in terms of the application of the um the findings, uh, you know, how how can my research, that which I've researched and now have data on and have some conclusions drawn about, then be applied to promote that which is true, good, and beautiful? To promote human flourishing, to be part of what the university's supposed to be all about, uh in the in the first place. Uh one example, we have a professor in Eastern Europe who's in a country that has very low sanitation standards. And his research is uh focused on both affordable and effective ways to deal to deal with waste management. And uh he then, as a result of the work he does, has a lot of opportunity to work in in the community that's known as the Roma community. Uh gypsies are how they might be referred to here, though that that's a pejorative term. Uh so we'll use Roma. But uh, but they have very little access. And because of his research, he's able to do a lot with with uh clean water uh and other sanitation issues. But it's an application based on his biblical worldview of how do I serve the least of these.

SPEAKER_03 28:56

Right. Right. So that that's really helpful. Three great examples or multiple really helpful examples there. Um, and you're you're you're speaking to faculty, you know, asking different questions, maybe better questions, interpreting data with creativity in a way that is fresh and maybe pushes in ways that some faculty or some scholars might not, and then apply it in ways that are different. And I can't imagine a better model of Christian education than to see that those kinds of commitments exercised by faculty. How do you see, in what ways do faculty thinking and acting in these ways, in what ways does it influence or begin to season or enliven the larger educational context with students, peers? Can you tell stories about how Christian faculty committing um to scholarship in a different and maybe I would say a bolder kind of way? How does that rub off on those who who interact?

SPEAKER_04 30:07

Sure. I'll give you uh uh an example from our founder. Our founder is Danny McCain. He has been in Nigeria now, again, uh straight on since '88, uh at a state university the first uh three years uh at River State, and now uh since uh '91 at the University of Joss, which is a federal university, much like our research one universities here in the U.S. So uh one of the uh the big issues that plague Nigeria is uh Muslim Christian violence. Uh northern half of the country is Muslim in general, southern half is Christian, and University of Joss is right in the middle, midway between uh you know, mid-mid country. So there's a lot of violence in Joss also. And of course, you have Boko Haram up in the north, and you hear a lot about them, but uh some other issues as well. Well, uh Danny uh is a theologian by training, but has had a chance to do some work in peace studies, and uh and again starting to ask those integrated questions about okay, Jesus talks about peace, about loving my neighbor, about serving others who aren't like me, all of those things. What what what does that say about the kind of things I research and I think about? And so these are some of the areas he's pressed into. And uh, and of course, then the the the application has been to to do a lot of uh of work in the country from the very north to the very south, uh, speaking and meeting with others who are interested in peace as well. Uh so he's got a platform because he did the research, he did good work and asked the right questions in terms of application to help engage this. So, so for instance, uh he has uh a department that's split Christian Muslim scholars. Uh and so he'll work very closely with his Muslim scholars in these projects, which is uh not unheard of, but it's pretty rare. And in fact, sometimes he'll be in meetings and stand up for his Muslim colleagues against his Christian colleagues because they're right on an issue. And um, and and it instead it's it's said so much that he now has opportunities to go meet with Imans throughout Nigeria, up in the northern area, who say, You're you're a person who I can trust who's a Christian. Help me think about how we can stop the violence that we're seeing here, Muslim on Muslim, Muslim on Christian, uh in my area of jurisdiction. Or in Joss, he's had a chance to develop a whole group of clergy, both Muslim and Christian clergy, who are sort of a uh immediate response team. When an outbreak occurs, and that's usually a group of either Christians going to burn down a mosque or Muslims going to going to burn down a church, and it does go both ways. Uh, this group comes together and they'll go together to that church that's to be burned, or that mosque that's to be to be burned, and and and and and be there and speak words of peace and truth and diffuse the situation. And somewhat because of their stature as professors, they have that kind of authority in Nigeria. It's a very hierarchical culture, so they're able to have that kind of influence. But that's just one example of, again, the integrative work that then applies to place places that sometimes are unexpected, you know, at midnight out in front of a mosque with an angry mob in front of you, but nonetheless seeking the peace of the city. Quote Jeremiah.

SPEAKER_03 33:49

Well, you're you're describing some pretty amazing faculty that um, you know, that have really made significant commitments to think carefully about their faith and to apply uh their faith and integrate, reintegrate their faith with their scholarship. I'm curious about where you find these faculty. I mean, how do people find you? How do you find them? Um is it fair to call the Global Scholars Network a movement? Um how how should um North American Christians think about this um this project? You know, the the these people, um, the work that you do, the momentum, you know, is it fair to think about it as um you know as as kind of a growing movement, or is it more scattered? I just I'd love to hear a little bit about how you find faculty, uh, how you help equip them, um all the kinds of you know dimensions that really make up your project here.

SPEAKER_04 34:47

Sure. Well, I think you've used an important word, and that is a movement. I think there is a movement of God in higher education these days among faculty to help them sense his call to serve him in their academic work. Uh it's not our movement. Uh, we have the privilege of having a small part in helping to foster not foster, but helping to encourage the movement and support the movement. But I think it's actually a work of God that's that's occurring in in global higher education. So uh one of the things that we've really put a lot of our resources into is supporting a global network that is developed among Christian academics. Uh the this is a sign of that movement. Uh, the network is called the Society of Christian Scholars. And uh we serve as a principal partner, which means we bring a lot of financial resources and some of the uh logistical uh resources to the movement, but it's really a movement of, by, and for Christian scholars around the world who have joined together and said, we need to be in community with one another, we need to be equipped, we need to share resources, we need to uh help one another uh follow God's call in this place and this time. And so uh so uh we uh are able to serve a lot of folks through this the society uh by those who join the society. It is a professional society, like any other professional society. Members join their annual dues, that type thing. Uh and so the the 14 programs of the society uh are are things that we put a lot of our time and energy into supporting, whether those are uh the the uh the webinars that are that are hosted, uh the the mentoring program, uh the resource library, uh seminars, conferences, curriculates being developed, uh and so on and so forth. So that's one. Yeah. Uh secondly, is word of mouth. People just hear uh that that we exist to serve Christian scholars, to be uh faithful to God's call in their lives, and they contact us, reach out to us, we're easy to find. We've done a lot of work on the web to make ourselves easy to find. Uh, and then uh in addition to that, we partner with a number of organizations that that uh that tend to know Christian professors but don't have uh they're not equipped to serve them. Yeah. Uh one of the the groups we partner with at national levels is um is uh IFES, International Fellowship of Evangelical Students, uh of which Intervarsity USA is part, but it's a global network of indigenous student ministries. And so I'll just give you one example. I was uh I was at a conference in um Kula Lumpur a couple years ago and was approached by a gentleman who wanted to have lunch, so we sat down and he uh introduced himself as the um the president of um of the IFES movement in Kenya. Uh it's called Focus, Fellowship of Christian University Students. And he said, uh, and I've been in ministry many, many years, and I know many Christian professors, and I've brought them together a time or two, uh, but I don't have the time, much less the resources, to serve them. So is there a way we could partner together? So um uh actually I uh I said I'd yeah, yes, but the person you really need to talk to is uh Osam Temple, who is uh the regional representative in Anglophone Africa, because that's that's how we operate. We uh we we we try to avoid a West to the rest mentality, like we've got all the answers here in the US, and we'll show up and tell you how to do things. So um we hire people who are uh from different parts of the world, have their PhDs in those parts of the world, have taught in those parts of the world and still live there. So Osam lives in Nigeria, so Osam began and continues to go to Kenya and work with the Christian faculty there to help encourage them and equip them uh in in the African context.

SPEAKER_03 38:56

Yeah. That's really helpful. And Stan, I wonder if you could, for our listeners, help put the pieces together in this broad scheme of what we call uh Christian education. There is the institutional part that um Biola University is an example of that. Christian College has a Christian um seminary. Um Talbot, you were part of that. Um that's institutional.

SPEAKER_04 39:24

School of theology. School of theology, right? There's a difference. Seminaries are standalone institutions, schools of theology or graduate schools of undergraduate institutions or universities.

SPEAKER_03 39:33

Um so you're you're part of that. Um, but there's also this broad network of um scholars that are uh working in these institutions that are you know secular for lack of a better term, and yet make a profound difference in the lives of students, uh in the scholarship that's exercised, uh kinds of questions they're asking, the way it sort of pays dividends for the broader society, um, all those kinds of things. How do these two pieces fit together? You know, how what how should we prioritize them? Or should we not should we not prioritize them? You've worked and benefited from both contexts. Um you spent many years working with faculty through the crew and in varsity networks. I think for most people, um maybe they've had exposure to one or the other, but not necessarily to both. How do they come together? When you think about what God is doing in the world and around the world, in higher education, um, how do you see God at work um in secular institutions? Um, and how's how do you see God at work in Christian institutions? And how do you bridge those um in your own sort of conceptual framework?

SPEAKER_04 40:50

That's a great question. There's a lot packed into that, so I don't even know where to start. Um so first, uh, and again, making the distinction between a Christian university or a faith-based university and a pluralistic university, although it might be a Christian quote-unquote university, it's still pluralistic in terms of a student's body. And that's the context I work in. I think there's there's a place in God's kingdom for both. Uh, far be it for me to say one or the other's irrelevant or the most important. Uh, I think uh different students need different educational contexts and different professors need different contexts. I have a friend who went to teach at a Christian college because he he needed to be very vocal in a way that uh he wasn't gonna be able to in a in a secular environment. He had to be more nuanced uh and patient. So uh both for the student and and and faculty, uh, there are benefits for different types of institutions. Uh there is uh a desire, I know, uh on both sides for Christian professors to work together. I know many Christian professors that I've uh ministered to over the years, both in the US and around the world, uh have a deep desire to engage their Christian colleagues at at the faith-based institutions. And uh be because they they have a sense their Christian colleagues over there uh just do have a little more freedom to talk about issues and maybe have a had a chance to think a little more about some of those issues of integration. Right. Um, on the other hand, the Christian scholars who are at the faith-based institutions often will say, Boy, I'd really like to engage my colleagues at at you know Michigan State or what have you, because they're they're dealing with a whole range of issues I never get to engage because we are faith-based here at Calvin.

SPEAKER_02 42:47

Right.

SPEAKER_04 42:47

So there's this cross-polinization thing is really helpful. Right. Um, by the way, that distinction blurs a little bit when you get into other contexts. I'm thinking again, sub-Saharan Anglophone Africa, where it's not quite as crisp, but um, yeah, that's another another issue. Uh, but even there, there's just just this desire to to let let's let's let's let's find ways, even though we're we are at different types of institutions and rightly so, to learn from one another and talk with one another and right uh yeah, sharpen one another.

SPEAKER_03 43:17

Yeah. And that would hold you you talked about Sub-Sahara Africa, but some of those same kinds of issues that you see in the US, that desire for cross-polonization, that same kind of reality in in in major parts of the world. Is that is that a fair statement?

SPEAKER_04 43:33

Oh, that is so true. And I'll give you an example both ways. Uh, you know, in um in uh I think it's like C.S. Lewis talks about in uh his writings on chronological snobbery, where um you know we we ought to read old books so we don't get fooled into thinking that our thing, our way of thinking about things is the only way to think about things. Well, in the same way we ought to talk to people in other cultures. So we don't get fooled into the think that our way of thinking about things is the only or right way to think about things, right? And that's where this cross-pollinization of these conversations among scholars in different parts of the world is so helpful. And I and I'm seeing it. I uh had a chance to witness uh an African scholar do a webinar for Christian scholars in China, in Beijing, and and uh and and somebody from the Czech Republic engage with those in uh in Argentina. And it's just it's wonderful to see the type of issues or differences that come to the fore that are really healthy, that sort of help one another in a sometimes a little bit of a I don't know, awkward way, even to say, oh, I I thought everybody thought about it that way. Maybe not. So for instance, in the US, there's this uh there's this paradigm that uh that that Christian scholars often have called methodological naturalism. It's this idea that in my methodology, as I do my research, I ought to only assume naturalistic causes or explanations. Uh well, uh you you you talk to an African scholar about this, and she looks at you like you have three eyeballs. She's like, Well, why wouldn't you bring everything you know about something, including theological knowledge, into your thinking? You know, it's really the antithesis of integration, saying, I'm not going to integrate methodologically. And so that helps a lot of the US scholars realize that, oh, yeah, even though all my colleagues and even all my colleagues at my Christian college here think this way, there are other ways to think about this that maybe are reasonable. And I can learn from my African brothers and sisters. Yeah, yeah. Or uh conversely, uh, you know, the the scholars in China who have grown up under a communist regime and have had very little chance to think uh broadly about some biblical themes like redemptive influence, they love to engage with their Western colleagues, Christian scholars, who who who are from places where there's actually this kind of thing going on where you can actually engage in in political discourse and have this type of influence in in helpful ways. And so, yeah, that's what we're trying to help foster is that type of global conversation among Christian scholars.

SPEAKER_03 46:20

So a lot of people in North America would describe Christian education as kind of contracting, um, particularly higher education. I don't know if that would be true at primary, secondary level, but higher education kind of a contracting, shrinking island in some ways. I think that's actually facilitated, my view has facilitated some of that cross-polinization because you find um faculty at Christian colleges um desiring to relate to Christian faculty and large R1, you know, not non-religious sort of secular institutions, and vice versa, you see that kind of mutuality of interest. Would it be true to say that um Christian education andor Christian scholarship around the globe is contract contracting? Are are the are you know, and then that's a big statement and way oversimplified, but would the outlook be similar if one were to kind of canvas or to you know look at big swaths of of kind of the global footprint? Um would it be similar to what people feel experientially in the in the states, where there is you know a sense that there's more contraction, or would it be very different? Would the outlook be very different? I'm just kind of I'm interested in your sort of quick take on that. Um is is the church expanding um globally when it comes to expressions of Christian higher education, or is it contracting?

SPEAKER_04 47:55

Well, like I usually say when I'm asked questions about the global context, there is no one answer. Right. Uh in fact, there's sometimes not even usually not an answer per continent or per region or even per country. So I'm hard pressed to really give a general answer. Um I uh I I do want to say that Christian scholarship well and teaching and service for that matter, uh done rightly. Whether it's in a faith-based or pluralistic setting really doesn't make any difference, it ought not to make a difference. In other words, uh there are constraints. I'd say they're the core creedal commitments that define orthodoxy uh as opposed to heterodoxy. The nice Apostles' Creed, Nicene Creed, and Athanasian Creed. Uh but uh but but you know, Christian scholars within whether they're in a Christian college or a pluralistic college who who are within that tent, those boundaries, have a lot of freedom. Uh but the fact is that there are other constraints that are, I think, are placed on Christian faculty and Christian universities, maybe by more narrow doctrinal commitments or certain commitments to what it is to uh to engage culture and what is and isn't appropriate, or questions you don't ask about this issue or that issue. I think there are equally maybe even more constraints placed on Christian professors in pluralistic universities by the culture, whether it's a communist culture or a Muslim culture or a secularist culture, where there's certain questions you can't ask. Now, in both questions, I think the Christian scholar's response is well, no, I I need to figure out how I can ask that, but ask it in the right way, in the right context, in the right tone, kind of all of Aristotle's, you know, uh ways of communicating. But the point is that that I think in the best scenario, uh, yeah, there are boundaries that all face, but uh, but there are other boundaries imposed by the institution or the culture that the Christian scholar ought to be thinking about, you know, if if they're inappropriate boundaries, how to respond to in the right way. Which which is so much easier said than done.

SPEAKER_03 50:15

What about from the perspective of a student or a potential student? Um, you know, and again, it's a hard question to ask, but and I know there's not one clear answer, but what are the opportunities and maybe how have our opportunities changing for students um to be exposed to Christian ideas no matter where they land? How have you seen that change? What new manifestations or pathways for learning and integration are you seeing emerge? I guess I'm drawing a little bit now on your parachurch campus ministry experiences. Your um you know, you've you've seen good models of pluralistic education, um, you've seen good models of formal Christian education. As a potential student, let's say I'm a 20-year-old, 21-year-old. Um and I'm gonna ask it both North America and um and globally, and I know it depends on the region, but what might I see or experience today as a pot as a student entering college, university life that would be different from what I would have experienced or seen, you know, um when you first started out, let's say um 30 years ago?

SPEAKER_04 51:40

Yeah. Um again, the global context is so relevant. Uh you know, so depends on where you're talking, the answer is so different. I do know a lot about the US context, so I'll refer to that. Uh I I I think there's there's positives and positives and negatives. Um the positive side uh there have been uh thoughtful Christians who have uh had a sense that even though a certain discipline is very secular in terms of the the the the narrative uh have gotten into those disciplines and made a real difference. And I'll use my discipline as an example, philosophy. Back in the early 20th century, it was just a given that if you're studying philosophy, you're an atheist and so on and so forth. And uh one of the big reasons was the uh a form of the problem of evil. Why would a good God allow uh evil and suffering? And uh and and there were a group of of individuals in the 50s, early sixties, who decided they wanted to they were believers, wanted to do PhDs in philosophy and tackle some of these issues. So they did. And one of them got a PhD, uh, went to work after he finished his uh his his uh his degree on this issue of the problem of evil, published a book to respond to the critics, deflated the whole objection. To this day, that objection is not held held anymore. Uh he his name is Al Plantiga, uh books God Freedom and Evil. Uh he and a number of others, Nick Waltersdorf, um uh Marilyn Adams, um uh Dallas Willard, uh George Mavrode's Michigan, a lot of uh a lot of these key institutions had Christian professors who really changed the discipline, such that in an atheist journal called Philo, it's a journal in philosophy that really addresses issues in atheism. Uh a few years ago, an article appeared by Quentin Smith, a professor at um Western Michigan University. And basically he was bemoaning the fact that we atheists have lost so much territory. So it used to be this was you know kind of a given, our view, but uh he said today, uh I think he said a third, a quarter to a third of all academic philosophers are Christian. Uh, and we got to figure out how to kind of short up the walls because we're getting beat at our own game. And it's just because these people did excellent research, got published in top journals, published books that became very important books in the field. And now any student who enters into a philosophy, certainly graduate program, but a lot of undergraduate classes, they're gonna read one of these individuals and others as well, Eleanor Stump, so many others I could mention, uh, and and are gonna have to have to engage that there are thoughtful Christians who are giving reasons that Christianity is actually true in the light of these conversations we're having in our field of philosophy. So, for instance, epistemology. Planetone went to work on that and gave reasons to believe there's actually a God to make sense of how we can know anything at all. Well, that actually I think started a bit of a domino effect into other fields, history, sociology, some others, where there now are a lot more thoughtful Christian scholars who are publishing and teaching uh such that students will run into them now a lot more than they would have 30, 40, 50 years ago, which is really positive. I think it's important for students to know how to how to how to find them. Um, if I could uh have a shameless plug here, I do a podcast called the College Faith Podcast, and I try to interview folks who can help students answer some of those questions. But the short answer is uh there are uh professional societies of Christians in all these disciplines. So if you're majoring in philosophy, you should join this the um evangelical philosophical society and the society of Christian uh philosophers, and you'll you'll figure out who's some of the leading thinkers are who are believers in your field. So that's the good news. Yeah, well, give me the bad news. Well, the bad and the bad news is I think that uh the conversations become at the university as everywhere so much more radicalized and politicized, and there's just uh, you know, it's a harder environment for there to be actually civil conversation and the type of discourse that leads to truth. So I think the campus environment is is less healthy for students these days. And that's not only on pluralistic universities. I think we're seeing that in some of the Christian colleges and universities as well. So that that I think is a very important change from you know 30 years ago. But uh again, there's there's always the good and the bad, right? It's just uh what what what our generation had to deal with and what this generation is looking at.

SPEAKER_03 56:41

You know, it's an important point you make, and that is that it's not so much about I mean, institutions are important. I think you would agree with me that institutions are really important. They play a really fundamental role in our society. But you can have impact, we can have impact, Christians can have impact through the um through really the solidification and identification and kind of development of really good ideas that take root, that um that gain momentum, that gain um scholarly reputation, and all of a sudden that empowers others um to um enter fields, to um ask similar kinds of questions, different kinds of questions, identify themselves as people who uh espouse to Christian faith and um and and kind of find one another. And you can begin to change a whole academic discipline in some ways, or uh through that kind of work that could take place in a Christian college or it could take place in a pluralistic institution.

SPEAKER_04 57:47

So is that that's right, and actually a number of the people I was referring to uh in philosophy started in faith-based institutions and then ended up in more pluralistic contexts?

SPEAKER_03 57:58

Yeah. So, Stan, I want to ra start to wrap here because we're at the end of our time. Um, but I do want to ask, you know, this is a more personal leadership question. You know, you work globally, um, which exposes you to all kinds of fresh ideas and insights from you know different parts of the world. What's one practice or principle that you see uh taking shape internationally? You know, pick your country, pick your part of the world that you'd love to import to America's colleges and universities.

SPEAKER_04 58:29

Not that this is not happening in the US, but I it seems to me uh it's it it's it's more of a at least felt need in other parts of the world. Well I'll give you an example. One of our one of my colleagues is in in China and uh uh teaching at a very prestigious university there, and uh really felt all alone as a Christian scholar. But as he began to seek out others who he thought might have a a Christian commitment, found out they did, and has now found that there are, and I don't have a a a hard number, but probably in the vicinity of 100, 150 Christian scholars in Beijing that he's connected with that are being very intentional about gathering. Now, their situation is a little different in that uh you know they tend not to have residential campuses, they're spread out across the city, so they don't uh they don't identify as much as this campus group, but we're we're Christian scholars in Beijing and we meet together. And just and just that need, and we're seeing that in in in South America, all through Africa, in the Middle East. Got some some folks from Oman and Dub and Dubai and UAE beginning to meet together regularly, and they're doing it by Zoom, but just this realization that you know we are called to be in community, both for our our own health and formation, but also to have the type of redemptive influence God's calling us to have. And so just this intentionality about even though it's hard to get across, you know, from one side of Beijing to the other to meet or whatever it is, or in some countries it's it's not even legal, still, we need to be together. We need to be in community with one another, we need to gather. And if if it has to be by Zoom, like this group and you know, UAE O mine, okay. But even better, how can we be present with one another? And I know that that happens, and you know, we've been involved in that, you and you and I and others in the US for many years, but uh sometimes uh it it it it it it seems that US faculty have a little more of the independent streak, like I'm kind of out there on my own, I can do this. Uh, but uh, but no, no. This uh this in in inborn need for community, part of the Imago Day, I think, you know, created by a triune God, uh is is is is just core to what it means to flourish. And so I'd love to see that be more and more prevalent around the world among Christian academics.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:15

Yeah, that that's a really helpful example. Well, Stan, I'd love to hear a little bit about what you're working on. Um, I know you got a podcast. Um, we'd love to hear that again if you want to sort of direct people there. Um, but what do you what are you thinking about working on in your own sort of writing and research? Or what's a project that Global Scholars has taken on that you're really excited about?

SPEAKER_04 1:01:35

Oh, I'd I I appreciate that offered uh the opportunity to mention a few things. Yeah, um uh I I do have two podcasts. Uh one is the College Faith Podcast. And it really comes out of years and years of parents or friends, uh parents of students going off to college or friends uh you know, knowing I work in the campus environment asking me questions about how do I help my son or daughter flourish, both academically and spiritually during their university years. And I was thinking I might have a thought here and there, but boy, you should really talk to so-and-so. So the podcast is just uh inviting all the so-and-so's to bring their expertise and answer the questions that I'll ask them that I'm getting asked. It's a lot of fun. That's a great and great idea for a podcast. Yeah, it's been it's been great. And this dropped once a month, the first uh of each month. And then I do another one uh called Thinking Christianly with JP Moreland, my mentor and friend now of gosh, over 30 years. And uh, you know, he he's recently been named one of the top 50 uh philosophers alive today, not just Christian, but whole you know, gamut. Uh, very thoughtful, very insightful, very, very uh committed to integrating faith and scholarship. Uh, and he's he's written a lot, but uh the the younger generation might not just know who he is and walk in and pick up their book. So we started this podcast really, uh, truth be told, to introduce him to the next generation. I mean, I have a few things to say, and we have a host that does a wonderful job, but uh it's just a chance for JP to bring some words of wisdom, uh, especially to the younger podcast audience. So uh that's thinking Christianly. And then uh, yeah, there's a book project I've got, I've got uh uh underway. Uh there uh there's a growing group of uh of folks who are very well-meaning. They're uh they're believers who really want to help the church and individual believers grow in their faith with Christ, and they tend to be from fields like um psychology and psychiatry. And they're part of a movement that's come to be known as neurotheology. So it's it it's it's an attempt to integrate uh theology with what we know from neuroscience. Two leading uh uh folks are Kurt Thompson and um the book right here, uh Jim Jim Wilder. Right. And um and and I've done quite a bit of work in philosophical anthropology, which is this field, what are we? Uh and and unfortunately, though, well-meaning and uh and and committed as they are, they um they they really are going down the wrong road. Uh because essentially they're advancing a view that's called Christian physicalism, that we're nothing more than a body, and any talk of soul or mind uh gets reduced to neural events. So you know you lose the soul, you lose, you know, what is it that's saved? Uh what is it that Christ took on? Uh how is his death in my place? I mean, all of these theological themes are kind of rooted in what are we?

SPEAKER_03 1:04:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:42

And so I think it's a pretty big issue, even though uh it seems that nobody in the church context I'm in are seeing it as such. And I keep hearing them read and cited and on podcasts. So I'm trying to write a response and uh got that in uh proposal in to a publisher, so be a matter of prayer. But again, these are great guys, I think they have great great hearts, they just don't have training in the field they're they're writing in.

unknown 1:05:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:06

They do when they're writing in neur neuroscience, but as they apply it to what are we, uh, there's there's a disconnect.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:13

Well, good. Stan, I am so grateful for your um commitment to all the work that you're doing around the around the world. Um, thank you for the great work of Global Scholars, and thanks for being a part of the podcast today. It's been really enlightening. It's just been good to connect with you and to catch up with you and to learn a lot of new things about you. So thank you. Well, thanks, John.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:33

I am so uh thankful for your work and what Upper House is doing as part of the consortium of Christian Study Centers. It's an amazing work. Blessings to you as well. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:42

Thanks, Dan. Thanks for joining us. If you've enjoyed today's podcast, be sure to subscribe and give us a rating on your favorite podcast app. Also, be sure to check out our upcoming events on upperhouse.org and our other podcast upwards. Where we dig deeper into the topics our in-house guests are passionate about. With Faith in Mind is supported by the Stephen and Laurel Brown Foundation. It is produced at Upper House in Madison, Wisconsin, hosted by Dan Hummel and John Terrell. Our executive producer and editor is Jesse Koopman. Please follow us on social media with the handle at Upper House UW.