Exploring Christian College: Affordability and Accessibility

How do we make higher education accessible to more people? Bringing his expertise in higher education to the table, Rick Ostrander converses with John Terrill about accessibility issues in Christian higher ed and compares payment models of Private and Public institutions. Ostrander currently serves as assistant to the president for academic innovation at Westmont College in Santa Barbara, California.

Learn about Rick Ostrander & Westmont College

Read Rick's Book: Why College Matters to God: A Student's Introduction to The Christian College Experience

With Faith in Mind is produced at Upper House in Madison, Wisconsin and hosted by Director of University Engagement Dan Hummel and Executive Director John Terrill. Jesse Koopman is the Executive Producer. Upper House is an initiative of the Stephen & Laurel Brown Foundation.

Please reach out to us with comments or questions at podcast@slbrownfoundation.org. We'd love to hear from you. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:06

Welcome to the With Faith in Mind Podcast. I'm John Terrell, today's host and executive director of Upper House and the Stephen Lowell Braun Foundation. Today we're exploring the topic of Christian college accessibility and affordability. It's part of our series on Christian education at the crossroads. And in this episode, we welcome Rick Ostrander to the show, and I am so delighted to welcome you, Rick. Welcome.

SPEAKER_03 0:32

Great. Thanks, John. It's great to be here.

SPEAKER_01 0:34

Well, it is good to have you here. Let me just hit a couple points of your bio, which I think are super interesting. Currently you serve as executive director of Westmont downtown, but I think you have a more official title, which is Assistant to the President for Global Education, Innovation, and Program Development. Did I get that right?

SPEAKER_03 0:52

You did. It's one of the longer titles I've had in my career. I try to summarize that on a business card, but I think you did get the old title there.

SPEAKER_01 1:00

I I see why you go with Westmont, uh executive director of Westmont Downtown. Um and that's exciting. We might get into some of that. I think that's a really cool project out there. And Westmont College is really one of our premier Christian colleges. Um, you know, we're talking to someone who is, you know, is a pl uh is at a place uh that's really leading in Christian higher education. Rick, you also served as vice president for research and scholarship for the Council for Christian Colleges and Universities. You were the provost of Cornerstone University. And before that, you were the Dean of Undergraduate Studies and Associate Professor at John Brown University. So you have moved around the country and have played a number of roles in Christian colleges and universities.

SPEAKER_03 1:44

Yeah, ironically, my my own uh uh uh undergraduate background was at a public university. We may have got into that um later. But yeah, most of my career has really been in private Christian higher education at a few different institutions and also at uh what we call the home office in Washington, D.C. for the Council for Christian Colleges and Universities.

SPEAKER_01 2:05

Yeah, and your background is so interesting. That's why we thought you'd be just a fantastic guest for the show, um, particularly to give us a broad landscape of Christian education because you've served in so many different roles and worn so many different hats. And yet you did go to a public university that's having quite a football year, University of Michigan.

SPEAKER_03 2:27

Yeah, that's my favorite topic this fall of Michigan football. My right favorite is Christian higher education, but you know, if we run out of material, we can always get into the maize and blue. I'm happy to do that.

SPEAKER_01 2:36

Okay, well, I wanted to give you an opening there. So we I've given the opening. I think you started first at Moody Bible Institute and then transferred to University of Michigan, is that right? I did. Okay, so you had a little bit of a Christian college experience as an undergraduate student, then University of Michigan, and then your PhD in history at Notre Dame. I think you studied under George Marsden, is that correct?

SPEAKER_03 2:56

That's correct. Yep. I've had a variety of experiences uh as a student as well.

SPEAKER_01 3:01

And I know um you're an avid road biker, and um and I know you also from this phase of your life, you're involved um in starting a new Christian study center at the University of Michigan. Um and so Upper House and some of us have been involved with you a bit as you have formed that team and are starting to launch that really important work at University of Michigan.

SPEAKER_03 3:25

Yeah, that's been really exciting to see that that move forward and uh uh to take uh, as I see it, kind of some of the the best aspects of Christian colleges and universities and and transplant them or uh promote them in a in a flagship university such as Michigan. Of course, Wisconsin's a great university too, and in upper house, so we're really uh in some ways looking at what you've been able to accomplish there and hope to uh to replicate some of that at Michigan as well.

SPEAKER_01 3:56

Yeah, great. Well, we're really excited about that that work that's forming and um has already formed at University of Michigan. So congratulations on that. So let's get into it. Um it I think it'll become obvious, and maybe it is somewhat obvious just reading your background, but but Rick, where did your personal interest in Christian higher education begin? And then how has it evolved over um your life?

SPEAKER_03 4:24

Uh yeah, I'll try to stay brief on that, answering that question. Uh so my father worked at Moody Bible Institute for about 35 years. So I grew up uh in the Chicago area, actually lived out near Wheaton, went to Bible or went to basketball camp as a kid, Wheaton College on their campus. But so my initial experience was at Moody Bible Institute, went from there to the University of Michigan, and while I had a great experience at both, uh I really had very few uh resources uh for how to connect my Christian faith with what I was learning. So I had a strong uh biblical theological education at Moody, uh, went to Michigan, uh in many ways a very secular education, although a good one as well. Um but what I found when I moved at into uh Notre Dame for graduate school and working with uh my mentor George Marston, and then later in the Christian college world was uh uh institutions that really seek to bring the heart and the mind together, bring biblical, theological knowledge together with uh whatever subject you might be studying, whether it's chemistry or sociology or what have you. So it's this blending of faith and learning that really attracted me to Christian higher education. And so that led initially to a position as a faculty member at John Brown University and later into administration. Uh so that to me is really the the the kernel, the the gist of Christian higher education. There are a lot of other aspects, you know, chapels, Bible studies, uh maybe mission trips, other things that colleges do, but it's the what happens in that classroom, the connecting of faith and learning that I think is so valuable. Uh, how has that changed over over the decades? Uh I think I still value that primarily. I think my interaction with that has moved from being kind of a faculty member in the classroom and one-on-one with students to thinking more holistically first about institutions, when I was a provost at Cornerstone, uh, but then later at the Council for Christian Colleges and Universities, thinking about the movement as a whole and how can we ensure sustainability and a healthier movement for uh Christian colleges and universities in general, uh, given the challenges that that these institutions face, and we might get into that later. So I I've always been an advocate for uh this connection of faith and learning and Christian academic community, and I hope that these institutions can continue to thrive.

SPEAKER_01 7:06

Yeah, I do want to go right into the challenges, but I also know you and Lonnie, your wife Lonnie, you have four children, and all four attended Christian colleges. Is that correct?

SPEAKER_03 7:17

That's correct. Uh our oldest attended Messiah. At the time it was Messiah College, now it's Messiah University in Pennsylvania. Uh, our other son attended Gordon College, and then later Point Loma Nazarene University. Uh, we have a daughter who uh was a dancer, uh dance major at Anderson University in Indiana, and then our youngest attended Lee University. So, yeah, my experience with Christian colleges and universities is both on a professional level, but also as a parent.

SPEAKER_01 7:44

Yeah, I think that offers uh helps to bring a really unique perspective that you bring bring both angles to bear on this topic. Well, Rick, you started to mention the challenges, and I want to ask you more directly about that. From your perspective, what are the challenges that Christian colleges and universities are are facing these days?

SPEAKER_03 8:05

Yeah, that's an important question. Uh I would identify two main challenges that they face. Um one, I will start with, I guess, the practical or pragmatic challenge is uh the uh the market uh for private higher education in general, if you will, is has been shrinking over the past decade or two. Uh some of that stems from demographic trends. A lot of these schools were started in the upper, in the northeast and in the Midwest, and the population has continued to shift to the west and the south. So if you look at just the basic number of high school graduates in states such as Michigan and Wisconsin, uh they're either uh static or in decline. And so that just creates some some basic market uh challenges for these sorts of institutions. Uh in addition, uh another practical uh challenge is that our culture um has become, as I would describe it, more uh consumer-oriented when it comes to higher education. Uh, and this can be documented in surveys that have been done over the years. Uh, whereas a few decades ago, students primarily went to a college or university in order to uh to develop uh their own personal philosophy of life or to uh you know to become in uh to get in touch with with uh deeper values and self-understanding. The primary reason for attending institutions today is what you could call career preparation or uh professional development. And so schools uh such as uh you know the the Wheatons, the Westmonts of the world that really focus on liberal arts, general education, uh have a, in some cases, a more difficult time making that argument for attending this sort of institution because of that consumerist mentality. Uh so those are some challenges that private institutions face overall. Uh, in addition to that, I would say Christian colleges and universities at times have faced uh a cultural, uh, I guess you could call the cultural or the political challenge of questions of whether faith-based institutions uh should either one uh be fully accredited, like non-faith-based institutions. There has been in some uh circles of higher education in general, uh, some, I guess you could call a secularist uh bias against faith-based higher education, uh, or questions about access to federal funding or or state funding for private faith-based institutions. And so, in some ways, those challenges ebb and flow depending on the political winds that are blowing. Right now, those challenges are probably less of a concern than they have been at other times, but I do uh anticipate that those challenges challenges will increase again at some point in the future. So there's both the the practical challenges but also uh the the cultural challenges of being uh a primarily a Christian-based institution.

SPEAKER_01 11:15

Uh Rick, I wonder if you could say a little bit more about the demographic challenges, just you know, with the the demographic cliff and and some of these kinds of things that are out there that that are are are real and we're just now starting to realize these and um you know they're affecting all colleges and universities, but maybe disproportionately Christian colleges and universities.

SPEAKER_03 11:42

Yeah, that's a real there have been a lot of books uh that have been written in in the past decade on that topic. Uh they get discussed a lot at academic conferences. I was at a conference oh just a few weeks ago for what's called the Council for uh Council of Independent Colleges. It's a large umbrella organization of about 700 private colleges and universities. And as they often do, you know, at the opening plenary session, there's a um a question, or they they have people identify themselves by what state their institution is in. And so when they ask for attendees from states such as you know, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Indiana, there's uh so many uh attendees who are standing up and representing colleges from those uh states. Uh the reality is, however, that as you look at the you know the overall American population, uh it's states such as Texas, uh, you know, Tennessee, North Carolina, California, where I'm at, that see growing populations of high school uh students. Uh the challenge is most people in shopping for a college or university are looking locally within, say, 100 miles of their their own institute, uh their own location. And so this has created a real challenge for uh the private colleges and universities, as I said before, that are primarily in the uh the Midwest and the Northeast. Now, how that affects Christian colleges specifically, uh there's another uh aspect to throw in here in that many of these schools are denominationally based. And if you know anything about uh trends within American religion, um, there's one been a decline of just self-identifying Christians in general, but especially those who identify with a particular denomination. So, for example, uh I lived in West Michigan for 12 years and had a lot of good friends and and colleagues at Calvin University, which is uh uh one of the flagship Christian reform institutions in West Michigan. Their feeder denomination, however, the Christian Reform Church has been declining in numbers, and so they've been forced to find other pockets of of um of student uh prospective students, both here in the U.S. but also internationally. And uh those sorts of challenges are affecting a lot of schools that have a denominational identity and historically have been tapping those denominations for a primary source of their student population.

SPEAKER_01 14:15

So that's interesting, and it's new to me that students would prefer to attend and families would prefer for their children to attend private colleges and universities that are within a hundred miles. I would I would think there'd be more openness given that you're gonna uh pay a private rate anyway. So you're not gonna have state subsidized uh tuition like you would at a public university. So that's there really is something to the location of these Christian colleges and universities that really does make a difference. And the fact that many are in the Midwest where you don't have uh rising high school populations is a real problem.

SPEAKER_03 14:55

That's correct. This has been a significant trend over the past uh decade or two of uh fewer students really looking nationally or beyond their own region or prospective institutions. Within the Christian college uh market, you know, I I think there are really are a handful of students, or students, sorry, schools uh that recruit a national uh student body. Uh Wheaton would be one, Baylor, Pepperdine. Here at Westmont, we we do to some extent, Gordon College. Most Christian colleges tend to recruit regionally. And so if they're, you know, whatever happens in their particular region is going to have a big impact on their enrollment.

SPEAKER_01 15:33

Yeah. Well, let's get into issues of of access and affordability. And you laid this out, I think, in your in your kind of opening statement or your opening thought about just the economic formula that has been implemented um so predominantly around how people are making choices around college. But why are these issues uh so important for Christian higher education?

SPEAKER_02 16:02

Yeah, they're they're really important because um well, for a variety of reasons.

SPEAKER_03 16:11

One uh while it is the case that Christian colleges in some sense compete against each other for students. Uh, you know, if you are um let's take you know the Chicago area, for example, a lot of Christian colleges are Trinity Christian College and there's Trinity International University, uh 30 miles apart. There's Wheaton College, there's Judson, there's North Park. Uh I won't keep going because I'll forget a school and then I might get in trouble later. Uh but you know, so there is a lot of competition among uh Christian colleges, but generally speaking, the typical Christian college is is they they lose more students to a regional public university than they do to other private institutions. And so what that means is obviously cost is a huge factor driving the choice of of an academic institution. And if you know, if as a private institution, you cannot at least be in the same ballpark financially of you know that that local regional university, it's going to be a challenge in being able to recruit students and and be sustainable. Uh so uh you know the cost factor isn't simply one between other competing private uh colleges and universities. It's really the question uh of how how can we how can our sticker price not create you know so much shock that they they don't even apply in the first place or get in the conversation and go to West Michigan or or you know University of Illinois instead.

SPEAKER_01 17:47

Yeah, Rick, and I've often wondered about that. There are these discount rates. So you have kind of the the sticker price um for private education. Uh Christian College would have its hosted public uh tuition rate. Um and then you have kind of these rebates or discount rates. How does that work? If I'm a student trying to or a parent trying to understand that, what am I looking for? Like can you help me decipher what I would actually pay?

SPEAKER_03 18:19

Yeah, that's uh now we're into the the Byzantine world of of uh college finance and and college shopping. Uh yeah, it can be tri uh and and I get this as a parent uh as well as an administrator, uh, that this can be challenging of uh determining uh the the the reality is very few students actually pay that sticker price that that is advertised for a college. Uh there's both, uh and I we don't need to go too far in the weeds, but there's both uh you know government-funded aid, whether that's loans or outright grants, uh, both at the state level and the federal level, but then institutions themselves have what they call unfunded discount, which is basically just how much they're willing to take off of that sticker price in order to attract and recruit students. The reality is, if you look at uh the national rates for, and I'm talking private colleges and universities in general, not just Christian, but the numbers are similar, um the average discount rate for first-year students at private institutions is over 50%. Uh so what that means is that you know, sticker price of say$40,000, the reality is it's it's$20,000 uh on average. And there are a lot of other factors involved uh in determining what that amount is. So um a few things as far as what that means. One is that um despite you know some news in the media about the the student debt crisis uh that you that that often you know may be in the news, the average college graduate uh has uh around$30,000 in total student loans, which it's a lot of money, but that's about what you know the cost of a of a new car nowadays. And if you think about the financial benefit long term of having a college degree, that$30,000 is by no means you know insurmountable. Uh so there's a lot of misperception as far as, and there's a few you know, kind of stories that get uh uh promoted about you know some uh particular examples of a student who graduates from with a you know from a school of cosmetology with$80,000 in loans or something like that. Uh but the reality is that the the you know the student debt is generally about$30,000 when they graduate. Um the other thing to keep in mind here, which you alluded to earlier, is just the the the difficulty of determining so what actually is that net price that I'm going to pay. Uh interestingly, I just read this morning in um I think it was the Chronicle of Higher Education, a task force, um a national task force to uh attempt to clarify how aid is given and create more transparency for institutions in announcing aid. So there's a recognition that this is a problem. I would say most schools have made good progress in this. I'll just use my own, Westmont College as an example. If you go, you know, if you're a prospective student, if you're a parent student, and you go to Westmont's website, um you there's a lot of information about what aid is available, but even a chart that shows, you know, based on what your high school GPA is and what your SAT scores are, um plug those numbers in and you can look at essentially what amount of institutional aid you're going to receive from Westmont based on those scores. Uh so there's there have been I would say even compared to five or ten years ago when uh we were Looking at schools for our for our kids, the process has become clearer, and institutions are really making an effort to provide more clarity in what that actual cost is for students.

SPEAKER_01 22:12

I know there's been some high-profile Christian colleges and universities that have put a freeze on tuition or have reduced tuition dramatically. Is that a real cut or is it a bit of real cut in bells and whistles around um I don't I didn't want to say smoke and mirrors, but you know, is it is it kind of you know being more authentic with the actual discounted net price? And so it looks like a a tuition reduction, but actually it's it's more of a transparent cost. What's going on there? Because I I know I know that's getting really competitive, and a lot of Christian colleges and universities are are trying to make their mark in this area.

SPEAKER_03 22:57

Yeah, you're you're exactly right. There um so what schools will occasionally do, and about every year there are a few examples of this, uh, is do you know announce a significant uh reduction in their sticker price. Uh, but then part of that is is also may not be announce a reduction in their discount rate. And so you're right, it's really a matter of trying to be more transparent in what the actual price will be. And the fact is that if people jump to conclusions or have a first impression about what that sticker price is, that can help kind of get people in the conversation for those schools. The problem is, and the reason why you don't see this happening very much, or schools will do it and then kind of revert back to the norm uh in a few years, is by doing so that that school is is uh what's the best way to describe this? Uh they're they're they have less flexibility in how to actually package aid to attract the students that they're trying to attract. In other words, if you have a high sticker price but also a 50% discount rate, that means you have uh more institutional discretion in how you package scholarships for particular students to attract uh those students to your institution. If you lower your price um but also lower your discount, then there's just there's less flexibility on this institution side to work with parents and students and try to create uh or package them in a way that will attract them to the institution. You mentioned before I enjoy road biking. Uh, if you ever you know follow the tour de France or on your bike race, there's what's called the Peloton, which is the mass of riders uh that are riding together, you know, because of wind resistance and all that. But occasionally throughout a race, you'll see someone cut what they call go off the front and maybe one or two and try to get away from the Peloton. And they'll do it for a while, and then they basically eventually the Peloton kind of swallows them up again. And that that tends to be what happens when it in this kind of um pricing game with colleges, you'll see schools occasionally make a big splash and announce that they're you know slashing tuition. Uh, and then after a few years, they kind of revert to the mean because that's just kind of the in our system today, it's it's the way that the business is done.

SPEAKER_01 25:22

Interesting. Well, we've talked a lot about the affordability issue, and and this has been really um insightful. Your comments are super insightful. What what about the uh some of the other access issues? What what um you know as a administrator, what are the other kinds of issues that you've worked on or that are important to the institution to to ensure ensure that students of of all types um have access, have have the capacity to consider um a Christian college as a real option. Um in your mind, what are the most salient access issues that surfaced working with students or families?

SPEAKER_03 26:08

Yeah, that's a great question. And the the first, the most salient issue in terms of access is just getting students to the institution in the first place, making it possible for uh students, especially from historically underrepresented groups, to actually attend that institution. Christian colleges I think have made a lot of progress in this area in the last uh decade or two. Uh, even my own institution, which is perceived as uh uh very traditional selective liberal arts college. Uh this year we have over 20% of our incoming class is uh from a Hispanic background. We are pretty close to achieving what's called HSA status, Hispanic serving, HSI status, sorry, Hispanic serving institutions, which uh includes some some uh federal funding benefits as well. Uh and that's that's just one example. A lot of our schools, I think, have have improved when it comes to um uh racial diversity and attracting underrepresented groups. Uh the way they've done so, uh one is through simply being intentional about uh scholarshipping and you know making it possible financially for students to attend, either through what's called an unfunded discount or simply marking down the sticker price, or identifying donors who are committed to this issue who are willing to supplement uh those scholarships uh for students from from certain uh backgrounds and groups, uh first generation students as well. So that's been a uh a big improvement there. Uh another way that they've improved in this area is simply making the campuses more welcoming and friendly to students from a wide from a different variety of backgrounds. Uh so that student, uh that African-American student attends um a college in Iowa, uh I'm gonna, you know, I'm kind of using some generalities here, but that they will actually uh you know be welcome and feel comfortable in that environment because of some changes that that institution has made. So there have been some uh I think some significant uh improvements there. Uh so that's all about kind of access to the institution in the first place. Um ensuring that those students stay and uh, as I said, feel at home, but also succeed in that institution, that's that's a that's another issue that that we can speak to and maybe d discuss as well.

SPEAKER_01 28:47

Yeah, that's that's really interesting to me. I've seen, you know, there's a lot of emphasis even in a place like University of Wisconsin to to not only welcome students to broaden the applicant pool, but then to ensure that students um flourish while they're here. And um and I know first generation college students, I mean that that opens up possibilities and begins to to shift the demographic um uh trajectory a bit if you can begin to uh open up um the university and college world to students and families who have might not consider it or haven't considered it in the past. It hasn't been a part of their own history. Um I wonder if you could point to some really innovative examples, both on and you did this a little bit with Westmont, your own institution, but but from your perspective, you know, working across Christian higher education, uh, where have you seen some really interesting examples of um of kind of opening up the applicant pool and and broadening the kinds of students that feel welcome and are able to matriculate? And then I want to shift into some of the creative things you're seeing to ensure that students thrive and stay in school and and graduate.

SPEAKER_02 30:05

Great. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 30:08

Um so I think there are, well, uh two general areas where uh I've seen institutions be creative in opening up access to um to a greater variety of students. Um would be, and and I should mention we're uh we're talking about kind of four-year undergraduate education right now. There's the whole obviously booming area of of adult education, degree completion that has uh historically always uh displayed more diversity than than four-year undergraduate institutions. Uh but I will say, and this is one lesson I think we've kind of learned from the adult education side of things, is uh to be more adaptable in terms of online education to open up our our institutions to a greater variety of students. And so uh, and that's been selective at certain institutions. But generally speaking, uh online education has enabled schools to uh, for one, address the affordability issue of you know, maybe students, you know, can spend their first year uh at home taking courses online from that institution and then come for the final three or two years, uh, which makes the total cost of their college degree less. I know George Fox University up in Oregon uh has extensively expanded their online offerings when it comes to their uh their general education program, so that students uh which are primarily usually completed in the first you know one or two years of college. So that's created some more flexibility and affordability uh benefits for students in that region, or that would be looking at George Fox. Um another uh innovation isn't so much um well, it would be opening up um to a new, a different sort of market, which uh would be the the two-year uh associate's degree student, uh students who are primarily looking to uh for career preparation in perhaps a more limited way than a four-year college degree. So uh what I have in mind here is something like what Dort University in Northwest Iowa has done in creating two-year, basically Christian associates' degrees uh in in um professional related areas such as manufacturing, um agriculture. They're in a dairy farming region up there in northwest Iowa. Um and so they have, you know, there are uh uh young people in that uh part of the country who aren't necessarily interested in a four-year college degree, but they do want to both be prepared for a career, but also have that Christian college experience. So Dort has developed some shorter span degrees that do provide that uh Christian college experience, but do so with an associate's degree rather than uh a bachelor's. I think as time goes on, we'll see more of these sorts of innovations just because schools are looking for ways to be sustainable sustainable uh given you know some of the economic and demographic trends that we've seen.

SPEAKER_01 33:27

Rick, I also wonder a little bit about the federally recognized work programs. Um study work programs. I I I I think a there aren't many of those, and I think a few of them are Christian c represent Christian colleges and universities. Could you speak to that unique offering and and is that uh a possible area of innovation and growth?

SPEAKER_03 33:51

Yeah, so well to uh just first of all, just distinction here. A lot of colleges and universities have access to federal work study uh funding. So a student who's doing uh you know work on campus could be funded and be getting you know part-time work and then supplement their income, which obviously addresses the issue of affordability through federal work uh study uh programs. I know at John Brown University when I was there we had that. There are a few institutions that have uh over 50% of their students who are doing work, significant work on campus. And to uh the schools that do so are can be designated uh as federal work study colleges and have access to additional funding as well. And I'm not an expert in this area, so I don't want to I don't want to speak in too much detail, but I know schools like College of the Ozarks in uh Branson, Missouri. Uh there was a school that I was uh close to in Grand Rapids, Michigan, Kuiper College, that was on the path toward achieving that that status as well. I don't know if they've actually achieved that or not. Uh so whether we'll see, I think it's possible we'll see more of these sorts of institutions in the future, as uh for one, students are looking for a way to to make college more affordable. So working while they're they're in school is is definitely an attractive option. But if schools can achieve a certain level, a percentage of their students who are engaged in this, it can be good for the institution as well in terms of federal funding.

SPEAKER_01 35:38

Yeah. What about the role of athletics and co-curricular activities? Uh, how does that factor into the economics, um, issues of access, um, opening up greater channels, larger channels of potential students who, you know, can thrive at the at the collegiate level.

SPEAKER_02 35:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:59

Yeah, and yeah, athletics is really it's become one of the prime uh recruiting advantages, I think, that Christian colleges and universities have, uh, just in terms of their their smaller size. Uh obviously there are there are a few uh a small minority of students out there who are good enough at their sport to go to a Wisconsin or Michigan or dare I say even Ohio State. Uh I can't believe I said that.

SPEAKER_01 36:25

Don't go there.

SPEAKER_03 36:26

Uh and other institutions. Yeah. But uh, you know, the reality is there are a lot of uh uh high school students who played sports, including myself, who wanted to continue playing and who don't who do want to continue playing in college, and they're not going to get that full right scholarship at a Big Ten institution. Uh and so uh small colleges that can provide that opportunity for continued participation in sports really have an advantage in that way. Uh scholarshipping for uh for these sports, there I would say there's a pretty wide variety here. There are some, depending on whether the institution is NCAA, Division I, II or III, or NAIA, the their level of scholarshipping that they're eligible to do differs, uh, but there are a significant number of institutions where if you're if you are good enough at your sport, you can actually receive a full-right scholarship to attend uh you know, whether it's John Brown University or some of these other NAI NAIA institutions. Even at a lower level, uh most most college sports or athletics teams will scholarship somewhat for students to play in the sport. It might be anything from a nominal, you know,$500 scholarship to be on the JV or something uh quite significant uh for that student. So the benefit is both in terms of uh that participation in a sport, but also it can make that college degree more affordable to students. And the other interesting thing here is that overall, I know once again, there might be a perception that college athletes are um, you know, they're not as serious about their studies or maybe not doing as well. Uh the reality is that in general, college students who participate in intercollegiate athletics often have higher retention rates and higher graduation rates than non-athletes. And a lot of that stems from the sense of discipline and just the the accountability that they have within their athletic team that that carries over to the college itself.

SPEAKER_01 38:34

Yeah. And at some places, academic advising and some other things that might be available to them as well.

SPEAKER_02 38:43

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 38:46

Is it I just to follow up on that, is it possible? Um I I'd always had heard that it you can't actually get an athletic scholarship at a NCA division three, division two, it was just division one. But I I I guess what you're saying is there are other ways to actually scholarship the students who are student athletes.

SPEAKER_02 39:07

Correct. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:08

For NSA NCAA Division III, uh, there is not athletic scholarship, but uh you you're right. There are uh there can be other ways to to uh to scholarship students who come to that institution and then who play a sport. Division two uh scholarshipping is athletic scholarships are allowed, division one obviously, and NAI institutions, which is what um uh Westmont currently is, we're looking at uh shifting there, but NAIA institutions do provide athletic scholarships.

unknown 39:41

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 39:42

And there, Rick, I wanted to circle back before I move to a new topic, and that is if like let's say I'm an you know I'm a good student, but I'm not an outstanding student. A lot of the or I'm not an outstanding athlete, but I you know, I I want to access Christian higher education. Um how do the options um shift for me? A lot of what you presented were ways that institutions can um attract the very top students um and incentivize them to come. Um but what if you're you're kind of middle of the pack? Uh you're in the Peloton, so to speak, and you're not not a breakout. Um how do issues of access and affordability begin to change, you know, from from a real practical perspective? Are there still options there or do the odds just get much more difficult?

SPEAKER_03 40:39

Yeah. No, that's a good question. Yeah, the there's still the there are definitely options there. Uh it's not like you have to have a 32, 34 ACT score in order to, you know, to get a decent scholarship to go to a Christian college. Uh it really goes back to doing your homework on uh you know what colleges you're interested in attending, uh, getting on their website, completing the what's called the FAFSA, the um the uh I'm gonna get the acronym wrong, but basically it's um to apply for financial federal level financial aid. Uh and then uh depending on the state that you're in, there are significant state grants available. All that gets factored into the price of attendance. And and there are, you know, there I I wouldn't want to imply that the only discounting or scholarshipping that happens with the institution is for the high-end uh students. It's all graduated. So even you know, your your B level student with you know a decent or average ACT score is still going to be uh getting institutional aid to attend that institution. Uh and so and then the reality is that you know most students do take out loans to to uh uh to get their college degree, and all of the evidence which is suggests that that's a good investment to make. And obviously, you don't want to graduate with$100,000 in debt unless you're you know med school or something like that. Uh but uh I don't think students should be, and I know there are probably some financial experts and analysts who may differ uh on this, but I I think you know going into moderate debt in order to earn a college degree is is you know is a good investment uh of your resources. And so I think one should be willing to do so within limits, but then also recognize that uh you know that's gonna you're gonna be spending uh some years in your career uh paying that off just as you would a you know a car loan or or a mortgage or other things.

SPEAKER_01 42:49

Yeah. Over the the decades that you've been involved in Christian higher education, Rick, what uh what have you seen change structurally within the universities and colleges to ensure retention? What what new departments have um have been birthed? Um where do you see rec resources shifting to ensure that students are successful? I wonder if you could just lay out where some of the big macro changes are taking place.

SPEAKER_03 43:20

Yeah.

unknown 43:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:21

First of all, I should mention and this whole subject, I guess, of student retention and graduation, uh, private Christian colleges overall do significantly better than the public universities. And so that is an important thing to consider as you're thinking about the you know the value of a degree, but also cost of attendance. Um if you you know three years at a public institution and not getting a degree uh ultimately is is a higher cost to you or your or to your son or daughter than finishing a degree at a at a private institution. So the the performance, generally speaking, is strong in that area. For these institutions. And I think that's because they've recognized that both for educational and religious reasons, but also practical reasons, it makes sense to keep your students as students, but also see them graduate in a timely manner and move on to productive adult lives that's going to benefit you as the institution as well. So how have they done that? There's been more of an emphasis on the centers for student success, resourcing staff members or departments, especially to focus on that first year of the college experience. If you look at the numbers, most students, if they don't persist at the at the institution that they begin at, they they fall away during that first year or you know, after the summer between first and second year, that's that's when they they don't come back. And so first to first year retention is the number that all schools look at. And if you can be in the 80s, uh you know, close to 90%, you're doing really well. Uh a lot of schools really struggle with retention in the 60s and 70s. And as a you know, a parent or student looking in institutions, that should be that's an important thing for you to look at, not just what the sticker price is, but what what's your retention rate? What's the likelihood that that I'm actually going to be successful here? Um that needs to be important. So um, departments for student success, really attention to uh first-year students. Uh, here at Westmont, for example, we have you know first-year coaches uh that not just are academic advisors but can help students with any other transition issues they might be having and and and moving to a full-time residential college experience. Uh schools such as Westmont and others also have what's called an early alert system. And so uh if I'm you know if I'm teaching US history and it's October in my first uh the fall semester, uh, and there's uh you know a couple of students in the class who are getting a D or an F after the first uh first exam. Uh there's uh a mechanism for me to alert that the student success department that uh you know the student didn't do well in this course, and someone should probably reach out and see if they need any help. Uh there are all sorts of kind of alert mechanisms in place to try to keep prevent students from falling through the cracks. And and frankly, it's easier to do that as a small institution than a public university of you know 40,000 students. And so I I think these this is that's definitely um a factor in favor of uh of a Christian college or a university.

SPEAKER_01 46:49

Yeah. Thanks, Rick. That's really helpful. I I really appreciate your your experiences um and unraveling, I think, some of the complexity related to the economics and and access. I want to shift a little bit uh here in this final part of our conversation. I want to ask you a little bit about what you've learned over the years, both as a parent sending four kids through Christian colleges and universities, but also as an administrator and a and a faculty member at um Christian colleges and universities. What have you learned um about determining fit? What would you say to parents or students about how to discern fit in these institutions?

SPEAKER_02 47:30

Yeah, that's a great question.

SPEAKER_03 47:32

Uh so much uh, you know, there is uh, especially if you're if you're looking at college as a formative four-year experience in your life, which I'm a strong believer in, and that still is uh a strong model for for many students, determining fit uh is just really important. And fortunately for us, all of our our four children had had great experiences, uh not perfect, but good experiences at every institution they went to. And so uh how do you determine that? First of all, I would say there's no substitute uh for a campus visit. Hopefully that maybe that doesn't need to be said, but uh especially during COVID, I guess it did uh that wasn't always the case. But there's obviously every school is going to have a great photos on their website uh and you know of you know perfect weather and kids, you know, students hanging out together, having a great time, and and so on. Um but see you need to get there in person and see what the campus is like, meet with professors, uh that's really crucial. You know, at the end of the day, this is an academic institution. Uh it's not it's not summer camp. And so uh find out what the faculty are like, attend a class. Uh, you know, and once again, obviously on a visit day, a college is gonna put its best foot forward. You know, as a faculty member, it was always kind of a running joke. If you're gonna eat lunch in the dining room, wait till a visit day because the food's gonna be better on Fridays when we have a visit day and that sort of thing. So, you know, obviously you're the college is gonna try to is gonna make its best impression, but nonetheless, if you're on a campus for an entire day, uh you're gonna, there's only so much you can fake, and you know, you're gonna you're gonna see uh aspects of that that real institution. So campus visits visits are important, especially uh contact with with faculty. Um the more that you or your son or daughter can can interact with actual students at that at that college, uh is that's that's gonna say a lot, obviously. Uh so those are the sorts of things you can do, I think, on the front end too, and after obviously looking at the website and if there are particular academic programs you're interested in, obviously you want to make sure that that institution, uh, you know, if you're thinking about engineering, make sure at least there's pre-engineering or something there that's going to prepare you for that. Um, but I would also say I had a colleague once who uh had a remark, he had a uh a line, you know, make a decision, then make it the right one. Uh I think any college can be a great fit for for a student. A lot of it has to do with what decisions you make once you're actually there. And it has to do with can you know, finding an area there, whether it's uh if you're playing a sport, that's a natural connection point. But if not, you know, where where can you get involved and and develop relationships and develop that fit? Uh, you know, sometimes we think of fit as just something that happens to you well. Uh it actually it's a matter of what you're actually doing to ensure that fit. And um, so it's important and it's not, you know, obviously some students do end up transferring away after a semester or a year, but I think generally speaking, uh, if you do your homework and really get there in person, uh you can do go a long way in determining institutional fit. One other thing I'd say along those lines is, you know, there is a lot of Christian colleges can differ in terms of even their expectations, you know, for students as a Christian institution. So make sure you're going in with your eyes wide open in terms of, you know, are you okay with required chapel, as many institutions do? Uh if not, then you probably you know you don't want to just be chomping at the bit as far as chapel goes for four years. So maybe there's a you know, Calvin doesn't require chapel, Taylor doesn't require chapel, Wheaton does. So, you know, maybe that's uh one of the things you want to factor in. So just be aware of, you know, kind of what the different expectations are in terms of uh Christian institutions as well.

SPEAKER_01 51:47

Yeah. That's really helpful. And you've given me some some good advice when when I hear a student complaining about the weather in January, February, and Madison, I'm gonna say, you made a decision, now make it the right decision.

SPEAKER_03 52:04

Exactly. Even though we showed you sunny, beautiful fall weather, you know, on the on the website. That's not always the case.

SPEAKER_01 52:11

Exactly, exactly. Okay, I so uh my last question, um, and I want you to kind of give a strong apologetic for both Christian education and um the decision to attend uh maybe a flagship public university or a non-religious uh college or university. What is your best uh case for why someone should attend a Christian college? Uh, and then make a case, because I know you care about both of uh both sides of this equation. Make a case for why uh a student should attend a University of Wisconsin or a University of Michigan or even the Ohio State University.

SPEAKER_03 52:51

I noticed you said the the emphasized.

SPEAKER_01 52:53

I got the I got the article right. I did get the article right. I hope we don't have any Ohio listeners. I'm getting worried about this.

SPEAKER_03 53:01

Oh, I think we're being we're we're we're being positive here.

SPEAKER_01 53:04

We are we're talking about them. That means we we we envy them or something. But but go ahead, make a case for um for for both sides of this equation.

SPEAKER_03 53:14

Great, yeah, I'd be happy to. And because as you as you mentioned, and as we discussed earlier, uh I'm a product of both. So uh there is a I have never uh you know had any desire to uh you know to bash public universities or secular education or anything like that. Let me start with Christian institutions. Um I think that the best case uh for a Christian for attending a Christian college goes back to uh, and I'm not gonna quote Dutch Reformed theologians here, uh I'll just allude to them, but uh the fact that you know education is not neutral. Uh there was at one point, I think, in the history of academia, and my advisor George Morrison has spoken to this, this notion that you know somehow there's this you you can be completely objective in terms of how you approach education or how how you approach a subject, whether it's sociology or history or uh literature or what have you. Uh and that's just not the case. We all come to our disciplines, come to uh academic study from a particular perspective or point of view. You could you can call it a worldview if you'd like, there are other terms. And so, if that's the case, I think the best argument for a Christian college is that you will receive an education that is intentionally integrating a Christian perspective into your academic study. There are a lot of other things that Christian colleges do. We can talk about chapel services or you know, small size and sense of community, and those are important. But at the end of the day, what the Christian college offers that uh a Michigan or Wisconsin does not is this intentional integration of faith into the learning process. And I think that's the the best card in a sense that that a Christian college has to play. So um, how about a public or a flagship university? Uh I think there are well a few benefits here. One is that some students really do are looking for uh that uh one, a greater variety of academic programs, anything from uh you know, take your pick, you know, physical therapy to engineering to physics. And so there might be a wider variety of academic programs available to a student, but also some students are looking for that excitement of a large university campus, whether that's you know, a football game in the big house or or you know, just the the broader uh cultural network and alumni network that you might have access to. And I think those are those are important attractions of a public university. Along with that, I would also say that there is the possibility, increasingly so, with the Christian Study Center movement, of actually attending a Wisconsin or a Michigan and still being part of a Christian academic community. So that's why I that's probably a topic for a different conversation that you're gonna be having. But the Christian Study Center movement, I think, is really uh important in in um providing not just a Christian experience for you know students on on a public university campus, but a Christian academic experience and providing in some ways that best the best of what the Christian college provides, but doing so on a on a public university campus. So I think there are there are arguments to be made both ways. Another one might be, you know, depending if you're in state, obviously, to go back to the affordability issue, it might be uh more affordable uh to attend a public university than a private. And not always. I know in my case at my alma mater with Michigan that that necessarily wouldn't be the case, but there are other benefits of being at those sorts of institutions. So uh at the end of the day, uh going back to this idea of fit, I think students you know need to uh to do their homework and consider all the options and then um and also you know pray and really seek God's leading in these areas. This is an important decision that that you'll be making in life.

SPEAKER_01 57:42

Rick, thank you. This has been a really enjoyable and enlightening conversation. And I I'll just personally add that I just find you always so helpful to to talk to. You're you you're really a uh a fount of knowledge, and um and I I love the way you approach these issues as as well. You always approach them from a relational perspective and wanting the best uh for those that are serving and thinking about serving in in higher educ Christian higher education. So so thank you for all of your commitments, um all the ways that you serve. And um we will put more about Rick um in the show notes, and you can find him um at Westmont College, um Westmont downtown. And Rick, where where might listeners also find you? I know you I think you have a recent book or an edited volume that came out, is that correct? Or something that's coming.

SPEAKER_03 58:38

I have a book uh coming out with Urdman's Publishing. Uh still finishing up the manuscript, so that'll probably be several months out. Uh I have a book that uh a number of Christian colleges use. It's called Why College Matters to God as well. Uh but if uh Yeah, the the best way to reach me would be simply through the Westmont College website, or uh I'm on LinkedIn like like many of us nowadays, or my email. Uh actually my website, uh OstranderAcademics.com, would be another way to reach me. But I enjoyed our conversation. I really appreciate the work that you're doing as well uh in higher education in a very different way, and uh really appreciate this opportunity.

SPEAKER_01 59:23

Well, thanks, Rick. We have loved having you on the show. Thanks for joining us. If you've enjoyed today's podcast, be sure to subscribe and give us a rating on your favorite podcast app. Also, be sure to check out our upcoming events on upperhouse.org and our other podcast upwards, where we dig deeper into the topics our in-house guests are passionate about. With Faith in Mind, it's supported by the Stephen and Laurel Brown Foundation. It is produced at Upper House in Madison, Wisconsin, hosted by Dan Hummel and John Terrell. Our executive producer and editor is Jesse Koopman. Please follow us on social media with the handle at Upper House UW