Christian Education at The Crossroads: Midseason Check-in

What have we learned and been surprised by so far on the Christian education scene? Dan Hummel and John Terrill reveal their top takeaways with podcast producer, Jesse Koopman.

Learn about Upper House

With Faith in Mind is produced at Upper House in Madison, Wisconsin and hosted by Director of University Engagement Dan Hummel and Executive Director John Terrill. Jesse Koopman is the Executive Producer. Upper House is an initiative of the Stephen & Laurel Brown Foundation.

Please reach out to us with comments or questions at podcast@slbrownfoundation.org. We'd love to hear from you. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:05

Welcome to With Faith in Mind. My name is Jesse Koopman, the producer of the podcast, and I'm here with you, my very favorite people, John Turtle and Dan Hummel. Welcome, guys. Hello?

SPEAKER_00 0:15

Welcome.

SPEAKER_01 0:16

We are doing a special episode this week. We are doing kind of a mid-series check-in. We're going to talk about some of the things that we've learned along the way, some of the questions we still have that we're hoping to get addressed, as well as just kind of informally process together, because we don't get a chance to always sit down together and kind of go over what uh the other people have had conversations about and uh really just kind of have an informal chat about where we're going with this whole process and what we've taken away so far. So I'm gonna kick it off with you guys with just a real basic question of what have you guys thought of this series so far? Have you guys been really enjoying the process? Have you learned a lot?

SPEAKER_02 0:57

Yeah, I can start. Um I I think it's been really interesting. It's a certainly different type of podcasting than we're used to doing at Upper House. I think the one of the more exciting things as we've um gotten to extend invitations and um and actually have interviews, conversations with people is just that uh we've gotten to talk to some really fun people and and sort of our wish list type people too, as we've tried to map out different types of institutions of education, different backgrounds that people are coming from, uh different things they can talk about. I think uh in ways that don't always pan out when you start a project like this, we've really gotten to talk to the people that we started the project wanting to talk to. So that's been a great uh sort of fun part of the project is getting to talk to these people. Um and we can get into sort of what we what we've talked about. But uh I so far I've really enjoyed the process.

SPEAKER_00 1:53

Yeah, I would agree. It's been fun to have these conversations, enlightening. It's also been a good learning experience for us. I mean, I'll speak for myself. I'm learning how to do this, uh, have a you know, have a podcast voice and and let my personality uh come through. And so that's been really uh good and developmental, and I've enjoyed that process as well. So um a lot to learn. I think, you know, across the board, there's a keen sense of the need for Christian education. Uh I think there's a lot of um differing views about how to accomplish that. Yeah. And a lot of factors that make that complicated.

SPEAKER_01 2:29

So one of the things we talked a lot about in our intro was why Christian education at the crossroads? Why are we calling it this? What have you kind of come to the conclusion about as far as our name goes? What is the crossroads that we keep running into? What are the some of the themes or characterizations of the struggles in education or the uh the the challenges that are the conflicts that are that we see arising regularly?

SPEAKER_02 2:53

Well, I can I can jump in and um I think the it's it's a rich metaphor, the crossroads. And I think there's a lot of different ways that you can think about it. I think of, I'm just gonna get specific with a couple of the interviews. I think of one of the interviews we've done, um, Charlie Cotherman, who uh talked to us about the history of the Christian Study Center movement, and he's someone who thinks about Christian study centers, which tend to be located in urban university settings. He's also a leader in uh an effort to sort of lead Christian education in rural settings as well. So there's a big crossroads there for someone like Charlie who's trying to think about sort of where to dedicate resources, where does the church need education in this moment? And then another person I think about is uh Andrew Turpin, who talked to us about the history of Christian higher education. And uh, you know, one thing often when you talk to historians, you come away realizing nothing that you think is new is actually new, that there's always been sort of a certain iteration of that before. And so the crossroads are interesting because it's not just one crossroad. I don't think, I don't think we're at some utterly unprecedented moment in Christian education. But each crossroad is is different and has its different challenges. But she was someone who helped me understand in a in a sort of stronger way that a lot of the issues that we see as sort of perennial issues in education, in Christian education, are ones that have very long histories and that there have been other moments in the past where it's felt sort of as important as now to deal with those things.

SPEAKER_01 4:22

And does it strike you odd that he would identify with the historical aspects in the interviews? Not at all. Uh yeah. So Dan's a history crazy person, but we love him for it. Um one of the things that I've noticed uh is almost everybody we've talked to on some level has talked about the demographic cliff. What have you guys learned about the demographic cliff? I know, John, you've had a lot more experience with this conversation than others, but Dan.

SPEAKER_00 4:45

Yeah, I I'd heard a lot about it. I didn't actually know the cause or the root cause of it. And it really is um it it traces back to decisions by um couples, um parents in around 2008 in the Great Recession to really limit um or refrain from childbearing. And so fewer students, uh potential students born, uh children born in those years starting in 2008. In 2026, those kids uh enter college. And so we're facing a a real demographic drop-off. Those numbers have been trailing off to begin with, but trailing off significantly since 2008. So the freshman class of 2026 is gonna be much smaller, and so you have um a lot of colleges and universities, not just in America, United States, North America, United States, and Canada, but all around the world now, um trying to, you know, attract and um draw students in um to matriculate through their programs. So there's you know fewer students. Um and that's not necessarily the case, you know, uh the the we're not experiencing some of the same um population um challenges in different parts of the world, but um there are more and more competitors these days with international possibilities, and you have just smaller numbers coming out of the United States.

SPEAKER_01 6:08

So on that note, so we've talked about some of the challenges. What's one of the things that hasn't been addressed yet in our conversations that you're still really eager to know about? So we still have several conversations to have in this series before we wrap up. What are some of the things you're hoping still come out?

SPEAKER_00 6:27

Yeah, I I would say that you know, we've we've heard um some reflection about uh a reimagination for Christian education within the church. And so I'm really eager to um have a few more conversations with uh church leaders, uh denominations, um uh you know um ecle ecclesiastical bodies that have been um thinking about Christian formation and education for for a number of years or decades or even longer? What can we learn from them? What are the what trends are they seeing? Um are um adult learners and students and young people um starting to um find um intrigue and interest in Christian education again? Are those courses starting to ramp up? How what are the ways that churches are reimagining Christian education? I think there's a lot more to learn, to learn there for sure.

SPEAKER_02 7:29

Yeah, for me, I um I'm eager. You know, one of the things that struck me as uh, and this was sort of obvious from the beginning, but it it's it's come through with the interviews. We are interviewing a lot of Protestants, uh, and that's gonna own who we are, where we come from. We're interested in sort of Christian education in the broad uh you know, uh American church, a lot of it Protestant. But I'm eager for a couple conversations that still have to happen where we're gonna be hearing from uh Catholic or other uh voices uh to get a sense of what Christian education means from those traditions. And I think there will be interesting, there'll be probably a lot of overlap. I mean, there's there's not, it's not entirely a different world, but there'll be also be interesting uh differences that I think um, and Jesse, you're the one who've who's been on all of these uh interviews. Neither of us have been in on them, but I think there are recurring patterns when you talk to enough people in this space of what people are thinking about, how they're framing the need for education, um, and and what they think that looks like. Um and and it's always good to sort of get a wider, uh, wider lens when you can. So um eager to eager to to hear from uh some voices outside the Protestant fold.

SPEAKER_00 8:38

Yeah, and I think to to speak to that wider lens, I think there's a lot happening internationally. Shirley Rolls was uh was an interview, a person we spoke with. She runs uh an association that's helping um Christian colleges, uh institutions of higher education around the world um find each other, um, think about curriculum innovation, um, think about Christian formation. Um they're gathering uh leaders from these institutions around the world. There's a ton happening around the world. I mean, the growth is in some places explosive, um exponential growth. And you know, we're mostly experiencing a contraction in North America, but that's not the case around around the world. Yeah, and so that's really interesting. So I think you know, uh a different lens is to is to kind of zoom out and then zoom in in different regions of the world.

SPEAKER_01 9:31

That's a great point. And I I weren't want to follow up on that too, to talk about some of the things that have surprised you guys. So I having sat in on all of these conversations so far, I've learned a ton. This is not my normal space that I exist in, unlike you guys. So I've learned a ton, but I'm curious even more than what I can bring to that part of the conversation. I'm happy to chime in a little bit. What are the things that you guys, as people who follow this sphere normally, what are the things that you've learned so far? What what things that you've taken away that are actually new to you?

SPEAKER_00 10:04

Well, one thing that I could speak to, and again, this is hopefully a follow-up conversation with us, but one of our um conversation conversations with was with Gene Habecker, who comes with just a long kind of pedigree of Christian leadership, organizational leadership, the chairman of the board of uh Christianity today, the president of Taylor University, uh American Bible Society. I mean, just a long track record. And um, you know, he's also on the board of the consortium of Christian Study Centers. So he sees the potential of entities like Upper House, um, you know, these these um initiatives that are taking place on public, non-religious university campuses that are bringing um a Christian worldview, Christian theology, you know, deep Christian integration to bear on professional practice and academic disciplines. Um and he speaks very um uh encouragingly of that movement. He's also a big believer in the Christian college movement. He spent a lot of years there, and up several institutions uh leading Christian colleges. But he's also pointed us to uh some work that's starting to emerge out of um churches around mostly around the world, where a lot of churches are taking um Christian formation and even Christian college uh as a sort of personal responsibility. They're thinking about higher education. How could churches work together to create a college uh environment that you know could either be in person or in many cases more of a hybrid or virtual uh opportunity to learn um and to begin to you know think about academic pursuits and disciplines through a Christian lens. And so this church-college movement is something that's really new to me uh that I don't know anything about, but but it was raised as one of the real potential um building blocks or um future building blocks of Christian formation around the world in the years and decades to come. So I I would like to explore that. It's a democratization of college uh in some ways, you know, opening up college life to large numbers of people around the world that might not otherwise economically have an opportunity to do that, yeah. But through the vehicle of the church, the institution of the church. And so um, what does that look like? I think there's a lot for us to learn.

SPEAKER_01 12:34

Yeah, and I bet that's one of those things that's gonna look wildly different in different institutions. I mean, the variety of churches we see, not even in around the world, but just in our own community here in Madison, is is pretty crazy. I mean, it's it's one church looks very, very different than the other, both theologically, culturally, and socially. So, I mean, to see what they would do differently with creating a sort of college program and institution within the their own congregation would be very fascinating to kind of wrap my mind around and see what what happens with that.

SPEAKER_00 13:04

Yeah, and I think it raises, you know, as much as it encourages me, it also raises questions for me because I think I am someone who, you know, I think institutions um serve us best when they serve out of their strengths and their deep reservoirs of experience and capacity, right? So is should, you know, should the church become a a vehicle for higher education?

SPEAKER_01 13:27

Aaron Powell Yeah, and I'm sure some churches could meet that need exceptionally well, and others could probably really struggle at it. But if there's a push to lean into that across the board, we could see issues rising in the diversity within that.

SPEAKER_00 13:40

Yeah, yeah. So I just think there's a wide range of questions. And and, you know, who are we? I think we have to be careful about making judgments about movements around the world, too. Yeah. Because I think, you know, we have our North America, North American lens, but it, you know, if you talk to people uh in Nigeria, they're gonna tell you a very different story about how things are evolving and changing there.

SPEAKER_02 13:59

So well, a couple things that have surprised me. Uh one is shouldn't surprise me because I work at Upper House, but it continues to surprise me, is how much the people I've talked to have emphasized formation as part of education. And those can, at least in the mind like mine, seem somewhat different. That uh, you know, formation might be much more about um character formation, spiritual practices, things like that. And education is about information and sort of learning things. But how uh sort of guest after guest has has emphasized how they see these things as really uh working together, and that good Christian education is also deeply invested in in Christian formation. Um and uh I think of Carl Johnson, the director of the study center movement, uh Christian the consortium of Christian Study Centers, really made that point in in our talk with him. The other thing uh came out of interviewing uh Shirley Hoagstra, who is the president of the Council for Christian Colleges and Universities. And she's just she she put words to something that I was getting a sense of as we were doing the planning for this, which is she really sees all of the different institutions we've been talking about as part of an ecosystem that really function at their best well together. And so from you know, you can think of from cradle to grave, uh, there should be Christian education happening for every person. And I'm so glad we didn't name this series uh Christian higher education at the crossroads, which uh was one option we were thinking of, because that would have really narrowed us into one type of conversation and uh and having a much fuller sense of the ecosystem of Christian education. Every Christian college student, you know, comes out of a certain educational trajectory and then will go into another one after their time at college. So uh she's given me that sort of sense to be looking around for the ecosystem connections on uh a lot of these uh institutions we're talking about. They don't all work together all the time, like they don't all see the ecosystem. So it's sometimes up to the observer to pull back and understand how they all work. But at their best, I think they do understand the church understands its role in relation to colleges, in relation to primary schools, uh, and so forth.

SPEAKER_01 16:10

Yeah, I'd say if there was one surprise that I've certainly gotten across uh is that a lot of the conversations we've had with people who are very much leaders in Christian education, uh are also very quick to point out its gaps. Uh, not that the I wouldn't expect them to be aware of their blind spots or or uh to have this uh knowing where there is not a uh a plug to be filled with in their institutions, but uh how they are really good at acknowledging the limitations of Christian education, specifically in higher education, where there are kind of getting to your point, a lot of formation things, and they considered an ideal environment for uh developing uh the life and mind of a young person, a young adult. Uh, but also there are needs that some Christian institutions can't meet, uh, whether it be programmatically. So like there aren't many Christian education facilities for becoming a doctor or a lawyer. Um, and they've been very forthright about that. And then they are quick to praise the other options that exist, whether it be Christian study centers, whether they be um uh campus ministries like University, like crew, uh, et cetera. Uh, but they're really keen to say that like there is not a single model that is for everyone. And I've been really pleased and encouraged to see these great people of these great institutions really express humility in that in a very way that's humbling to myself as well as encouraging to me to see people can get their needs filled for Christian upbringing at at different stages in their life through various means well.

SPEAKER_00 17:42

Yeah. Yeah, just I think that's a really good point. And I want to kind of jump off that point and return to something that Dan spoke about, and that is this idea of kind of a spiritual ecosystem. Uh ecosystem. Um, I do think uh that one of the things that surprised me is that um is uh a humility, but also I think an opportunity is for greater awareness of how um this ecosystem works. And so I I I liken it to like a river. You know, there's things that are happening upriver that um will eventually come downriver as somebody you know enters college or maybe even as an adult learner is being formed in a church context. And so a lot of recognition that you know what we do with kids in early childhood is critical. I mean, we're really working, you know, kind of in the early stages of growth and development. You know, it's upriver in so many ways. And there's opportunities to, you know, to bring vitality and um nourishment at various stages along, you know, the river ecosystem. And I think there's I've been a little surprised that um we you know there aren't a lot of venues that bring all of these leaders across Christian education together to think together imaginatively.

SPEAKER_01 18:58

Aaron Powell I was just thinking this is super cool that we're doing this podcast because this ecosystem is so diverse and it's it's often looked at as different pathways that don't intersect or don't have a crossroads.

SPEAKER_00 19:10

Yeah, there's they're sort of separate tributaries. So you could be in church uh Christian education, you know, run a Christian education program at a church, big church, small church, and you might know it know nothing about um the campus ministries. You might not have uh a lot of knowledge about the Christian Study Center movement, which is a newer movement, so that's not surprising. You may not have any relationships with with faculty or administrators at a Christian college. And you could say the same for somebody at Christian college or some so it it I think creating opportunities for us to learn together, to to share practices that seem to be working. Um we are, you know, if we stop and think about our own stories. I mean, you know, some of us came to faith. Uh I was a young adult. Um, so I have virtually, you know, um very few memories I have some memories of Sunday school as a kid, but not like some people do. Others, you know, were deeply formed through Sunday school. Um campus ministry played a significant role in my life, but it was a campus ministry geared to graduate students, uh not to undergraduate students. So our stories are very different, and we've benefited in different ways. And I think if we can if we can help to um introduce participants of the ecosystem to one another, uh that I think will go a long way to to bring um you know fresh growth and new opportunities.

SPEAKER_01 20:29

Yeah. On that note, I'd like to take a little bit of a step back. So we've been talking about our own perspectives on this. I want to take a step back to our audience's perspective. As we think about our audience, and hopefully we've had many people listening to a lot of these podcasts in the series already, if not all of them. What are some of the takeaways you hope that the audience has gotten out of our conversations so far? I know we just were talking about it, but I'll start off with the ecosystem thing. Is really as we're talking about it and mumbling it over right now, it's it's really exciting to think about whether it be prospective students or parents of students, that they could be aware that there's a multitude of options to do it well. And going down one path does not necessarily mean better than the other. It's about finding the path that best meets the need of the individual. Yeah. Um, so that's something I really hope as I think about young people all the time and and what they're preparing for as they approach college life or what the next stage is after high school.

SPEAKER_00 21:32

I love that point. I I think that I hope the series will just open up the imagination and and vision for possibilities. That um of all communication of all communities, of all educational institutions, um my my heart, my hope, and I think in some ways this plays out in reality, is that Christian institutions are leading the way. That they uniquely can see The image of God in all people, that they can open doors in ways that help young people and old people alike reach their capacity. I mean, I was really moved today. Um, earlier today, we actually had an interview with Marcio and T. S. Sierra, and they run a church and a private Christian school here in Madison and um work as a husband, wife, pastor, principal team. And um, you know, j they they they work so hard with kids that come from difficult economic backgrounds, um, mostly um kids of color, a lot of immigrant communities, um African American communities, um, Hispanic communities. Um they they work um to open up all kinds of possibilities to imagine um what a a trajectory of learning and possibility can look like. So, you know, their rooms, rather than room two or room B, they name their rooms after um colleges in the area. And they include colleges and universities, and they include vo vocational schools, technical schools, so that they're all the while saying, whether you choose to go to a four-year college or you choose not to go to college or you choose to go to a technical school, reach your capacity. We're gonna help you here to fulfill your dreams, and we're gonna help you learn and grow. And they put all of that out in front so these kids can see lots of possibilities. That to me is fantastic. And that's what Christians institutions can do uniquely, I think, is see the image of God in people and work diligently to make it happen.

SPEAKER_02 23:40

That's that's great. I'm I haven't heard that interview, so I'm looking forward to uh to listening to it. It's really good you'll enjoy it. Yeah, yeah. Um I think the the the sort of uh 10,000-foot uh insight I think we can be offering people is um something about how uh precious maybe that's not the right word, but um, each of the people we're interviewing, they tend to be coming out of a particular institution and and and many of them are leading these institutions. And I don't know, just talking to them, getting a sense of how they came into the work that they're into, just like don't take anything for granted. Uh a lot of these things, a lot of these schools have been around for centuries, maybe, uh certainly decades. Um, a lot of the ministries uh we've talked to have been around a long time. And you sort of grow up, someone like me grows up and just takes these things for granted, like, oh yeah, that this is the landscape. And because we've had this crossroads metaphor in thinking about what's changing, realizing that um a lot of these institutions that these leaders we're talking to, they're thinking about significant change in their own institutions, either in the recent past or in the recent or in the the near future. And um, and so the the landscape might look a lot different uh in a few years. And that's what drew us into this topic, uh, being interested in it. Um, but it's something that I think we can often take for granted if we're not thinking, uh sort of paying attention to um to what's actually going on and to hearing the stories of the people leading these places. And so I think of someone like Carl Johnson leading the consortium of Christian Study Centers, just how new that is, even though it's you know, I came into this work just a few years ago, sort of took for granted that there was a consortium, took for granted that there's a network. Uh Carl's someone who's been in the Christian study center world for decades, and he he recalled during our conversation how that was, you know, something that had to emerge in in pretty recent history um to really uh put it so that someone like me who joins in 2019 just sort of assumes that this is how the the way you know Christian study centers work. So um I came to that realization over and over again with the people uh I've been talking to. So uh listeners, don't take uh anything for granted and be curious about where these institutions uh have come from and where they might be going.

SPEAKER_00 25:52

Yeah, and I think um our listeners can be heartened, um, encouraged by the amount of innovation that's taking place. I think sometimes it's easy to look at education and think of it as one of those places that doesn't, you know, change uh very quickly. But boy, there's a lot of creative thinking that's taking place out of necessity at all levels. Um, institutions of higher education, um, Christian uh primary, secondary schools, um churches are really wrestling with this stuff. There's a lot of just really good creative work. Now, in some ways, um, this is a bit of an old story, and I want to draw Dan out, our historian, because we've always been doing Christian education uh from the very beginning, and some of our conversations, you know, um punctuate the story that goes way back, right, from from the first uh members of the church, right? Yeah. I mean, this is all the way back to the very beginning and and even into the you know the the Hebrew um scripture, you know, it's it's it's a it's a story that's you know old and dated and and yet there's all kinds of new tools that are available, there's new ways that we're thinking about this. Um I think even COVID. I mean, we're finding hearing stories about COVID and lessons learned from a pandemic and how to educate and attend to emotional, physical, and spiritual needs when you can't gather in person. Yeah. So lots of really key learning that um and and innovation. And and I think that ultimately will serve um students well, families well. And if if I were a parent or a student and listening, I would be encouraged to hear how hard these institutions are working.

SPEAKER_01 27:32

To that note, one of my takeaways, as well as a takeaway I'd hope our audience really gets is we are talking to some of the most prolific names uh in Christian education today in America, at least. And to hear the heart that all these people have had for Christian education, for students, for people desiring to learn and have a thirst and hunger for growing in their faith, as well as getting empowered uh in both their heart and their spirit and their mind, uh, is just overwhelming. It like the quality of people that we've had showing this level of character and the the passion and enthusiasm and desire they have for continuing to grow the education is something that just is really, really encouraged me personally.

SPEAKER_00 28:22

Yeah, I I I want to jump in here just really quickly because I think there this is not an easy field to lead in right now. These people have committed their lives to um Christian formation, Christian education. They could um have an easier life in other industries. Um you think about higher education, uh Christian higher education, not a lot of margin for error. Um they are scrutinized by you know internal and external stakeholders, board members. I mean, it's it's it's uh you know, it's a high demand 24-7 kind of thing. And I I think they're they're in it because they really care. Yeah. They're just care and um they want to see the church flourish, they want to see people flourish. Yes, they care about their particular institution, but they have a much larger, bigger vision for um how this um, you know, is is is good for our society at large.

SPEAKER_02 29:21

You know, it's uh it's a it's like a a piece of uh folk wisdom that people don't join higher education unless they're really passionate about teaching, or there's other things you could do that maybe don't come with the same frustrations or more pay or whatever. And I think it's doubly so for Christian higher education. It's um, you know, I don't want to glance or sort of gloss over some of the significant difficulties that um a lot of our guests have talked about in terms of we talked a little about the demographic cliff. There's massive financial stresses in in particular Christian higher education. There's, you know, the unique uh pressures of church world where people have very, very strong opinions and invoking God on their that on their side for their opinions.

SPEAKER_00 30:03

Well, and even the cultural wars that they get caught up in, right? Trying to navigate just all the opposing forces and voices around hot button cultural issues.

SPEAKER_02 30:13

Aaron Ross Powell And particularly issues that touch on um you know staying for particular for someone like Shirley Hoogstra for um you know core issues around uh what a univ who a university can hire, what what sort of um standards they can put on their faculty and and students that strike for a lot of these colleges at the core of being a Christian college. Right. So it's it's really you know, certainly a doubly thankful thankless um industry to be in right now. Yeah. But you got you know, at least in our interviews, you never got a sense that um these people were complaining at all. I mean, maybe maybe we should have had the what would you complain about if um but but really got a sense that they felt called into these areas. And yeah, um, it's always fun to talk to people who uh who who show that sort of spirit and commitment to their work.

SPEAKER_01 30:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:58

Right.

SPEAKER_01 30:59

Uh on that note, one of the things that also surprised me when we were first setting out to do this, one of the things I thought we'd hear a lot more of is complaining, but not necessarily negative complaining, but like talking about some of the challenges that I anticipated that really haven't come up a lot. And we've even, in some cases, tried to get these things to come out and they just haven't been prevalent. So uh the big political intrigue, we've talked some people about Title IX and a few other things here and there, uh, state regulations, et cetera. And those things exist, but they've never been the focal point of how these people view their positions or their roles or how they lead their institutions. Um, it's been very much a point of opportunity and an obstacle to work with and around, but not something that they feel impeded by, which surprised me. I really thought that we'd get more people who look at these things as obstacles for achieving their goals in education or in Christian formation. So I've been really encouraged to see uh the way people have really not focused on those as challenges or obstacles to try to break down or overcome, but to be worked with and to be leading alongside the challenges because they exist for a reason. And I I think that's been really awesome, um, but very much not what I anticipated. I thought we'd get a lot more people talking about the concrete ways that the political intrigue and regulations and things really impeded, or even the financial considerations really impeded their goals.

SPEAKER_02 32:25

Well, I wonder if you just thinking of the type of people who might rise to the leadership of these institutions, you know, I I think you have to, uh John, you might be able to speak on this better, but um you you have to have a certain perspective that the challenges aren't insurmountable and in fact um you know are are going to be overcome for what what you're trying to do. So um I I wonder if there's a little selection bias in sort of you know, talking to leaders of colleges and institutions, um, you know, you don't get to that position unless you have a certain way of compartmentalizing the problems and sort of focusing on on the positives.

SPEAKER_01 33:01

Yeah, I didn't really think about that when we set up. We never looked for a failed institution and tried to interview the leader of the failed institutions. Yeah. Um that would have been maybe an interesting pick to go in. I'm not sure I would have voted for it, but you know, it would have been an interesting take for sure. That's interesting.

SPEAKER_00 33:15

Yeah, and I think the region of the country, I mean, we've been mostly talking to leaders in the United States, and um I think the the state environments really matter for um Christian education, uh for the life of churches. I I think that there are I mean, it it surprised me. It came out that, you know, especially leaders that have, you know, have moved from an institution to another institution in a different state or different region of the country, they they notice the difference. Yeah. There are states that are more accommodating, um states that are more restrictive. Um I think then the pressures swirl around in different kinds of ways. Um and that was something that actually get back to the surprise question. That was something that really surprised me. I would have imagined that would be true, but the idea was really expressed, yeah. Yeah. As as uh as a unique um uh shift depending on where you are.

unknown 34:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:07

Well, I think I want to start wrapping up here, but uh I want to give you guys both an opportunity to talk about what it is that you are really hoping for in the next several conversations as we start to conclude the the series. Uh I'll I'll go ahead and start off with I'm really looking forward to interviewing you, John. Um I I've been attending at Upper House uh events for, gosh, almost as long as you guys have been around. Uh you never had a very cursory relationship over that time, but over the last year it's been growing a lot as I've been working with you a lot more.

SPEAKER_00 34:40

As you're coaching me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:42

I'm learning a lot from you too along the way, John. Don't worry. Um, but uh I really am excited to learn more about the institution that's been near and dear to my heart that I don't know much about on the back end. I don't know much about how it's started or uh the principles with which it's founded. Um and getting to know about an individual study center's experience is uh something I'm really excited about.

SPEAKER_00 35:04

Yeah, what's it's sort of a microcosm of of this big movement, but I think a good a good um a good microscope in. I mean, I think there's some things that that we can that we can learn and some of the tensions we felt I think would be indicative of the larger Christian formation, Christian education movement. Yeah, good.

SPEAKER_02 35:23

I can talk about I'm I'm excited for a couple interviews coming up that will be really focusing in on students and their experiences and serving uh students. So a lot of the conversations can be uh much more about institutions and sort of just running of institutions. Um I'm gonna have a couple conversations coming up, uh talking about campus ministries, so a ministry serving students, and then we're actually going to interview a student. Um, but really getting a sense of what are the benefits of a Christian uh particularly sort of uh college education lived experience, or what is it actually done for people's lives, or what can it do in the case of campus ministry? So that that's just in the in the interviews I've had so far, I haven't gotten into sort of the lived experience of being a uh student in one of these types of institutions, so I'm excited for that.

SPEAKER_00 36:17

One of the things I'm excited about, and it's on my list of potential interviews, is to find um, and there are a few names, a couple individuals we'd like to speak to, that are leading major flagship public universities. These people are people of faith, uh Christian conviction, but they're they're leading, you know, a large secular, non-religious institution. And so how do you navigate those tensions? How do you create an environment that is truly welcoming to all residents of the state and far beyond, right? And including dimensions of faith and spirituality. Um and so you know that's that's an important set of interviews or interviews. Yeah, I'm looking forward to that one too. I think that will shed light on on how we think about formation in places that aren't um founded as Christian institutions.

SPEAKER_01 37:09

Awesome. Well, thank you guys very much for this conversation. I've learned a lot from you guys in terms of what you've taken away and and what you're looking forward to. Uh, I am just so thankful for each of you and your heart for doing this work together uh for what we're bringing to our audience uh because of your hard efforts. So thank you both so much for everything that you're doing and for continuing on the good work.

SPEAKER_00 37:30

I'm glad we did this check-in. It's actually been really helpful to do this at the midway point. It helps uh forces me to do some reflection and then to think about um what we're most excited about, what we most need to complete this conversation.

SPEAKER_02 37:43

Yeah. Same here. Thanks, Jesse, for your uh editorial work on all this stuff too. You're the the tie that binds it all together so far.

SPEAKER_01 37:52

Appreciate that. Thankfully, I don't have to do a lot of editing with these two. They're usually really great, but uh it is a pleasure to get to polish up a little bit here and there and get you guys the best product we possibly can. Uh, on that note, uh thank you all for listening. We are grateful for all of our audience members. Um, please do like, share, subscribe. Um uh let people know what's going on. If you'd like a particular episode, be sure to let people know. Uh, we're really wanting to make sure everybody who would benefit from this podcast gets a chance to hear it. Thanks for joining us. If you enjoyed today's podcast, be sure to subscribe and give us rating on your favorite podcast app. Also, be sure to check out our upcoming events at upperhouse.org and our other podcast, Upwards, where we dig deeper into the topics our in-house guests are passionate about. With Faith in Mind is supported by the Stephen and Laurel Brown Foundation. It is produced at Upper House in Madison, Wisconsin. Hosted by Dan Hummel and John Turrill, our executive producer and editor is Jesse Kootman. Please follow us on social media with the handle at Upper House UW.