Online Education: The Power of Content

Jason Gile, Executive Director for Seminary Now, joins Dan Hummel for a discussion on the online seminary platform Seminary Now and the value of online education. 

Learn about Jason Gile & Seminary Now

With Faith in Mind is produced at Upper House in Madison, Wisconsin and hosted by Director of University Engagement Dan Hummel and Executive Director John Terrill. Jesse Koopman is the Executive Producer. Upper House is an initiative of the Stephen & Laurel Brown Foundation.

Please reach out to us with comments or questions at podcast@slbrownfoundation.org. We'd love to hear from you. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:06

Hello and welcome to With Faith in Mind. I'm Dan Hummel, today's host and the Director of University Engagement at Upper House. This episode is part of our series on Christian education at the Crossroads, and we're welcoming Jason Guile to the podcast. Hi, Jason.

SPEAKER_01 0:20

Hi, Dan. Good to be with you.

SPEAKER_00 0:22

Jason Guile is at Northern Seminary, and he is the Chief Innovation Officer there. He's also the executive director of the streaming video platform Seminary Now, which is what we're going to talk to Jason about today. Just a couple more uh facts about Jason before we jump into the conversation. Jason has a PhD in Old Testament Studies from Wheaton College and an MA and BA in Hebrew Bible and Hebrew Studies from our own UW Madison. And we were just talking uh before coming on air about a few of the people we both know here uh here in Madison. And Jason has also published on Old Testament Studies in a variety of venues, and he teaches courses on Hebrew Bible and biblical theology of mission and much more at Northern Seminary. So, Jason, we're here to talk to you about Seminary Now uh and as a sort of digital learning platform. Wondered if you could just, before we jump into uh the questions, give us a sense of uh your own personal experience with digital learning. Have you is this a type of uh learning that you've engaged with uh in your own uh in your own education, or is it something you're coming to sort of fresh uh as a teacher?

SPEAKER_01 1:33

Yeah, good question. Uh I think I came at it first as an administrator, really. Um I was doing academic administration, thinking about seminary education and delivery models and the future of seminary. So that's really where it started. But before Seminary Now, I did lead the implementation of a live streaming um uh program at Northern Seminary. So we called it Northern Live, and it was basically like a smart classroom that really was doing uh, yes, Zoom, but also the integration of distant students with a live classroom, uh, even pre-COVID, right? So that was my first foray into digital education. Um, seminary now came along really as an first as an idea. And I think what we were addressing was uh how do we reach more people? Uh seminaries traditionally uh reach a very small group of people. And I'm a believer in seminary education and degree programs and the importance of that, but the reality is, of course, that uh the vast majority of church leaders and Christian lay people are not going to go to seminary. So we wanted to develop something that really could reach the masses in a way that a streaming video platform could.

SPEAKER_00 2:53

So uh you're an old testament scholar by training. So how did you find yourself sort of in in conversations where you were uh talking about sort of a pretty technical uh I assume it's uh there's a lot of technical and digital aspects to launching something like Seminary Now. Was that an easy transition for you? Do you have sort of a background in that, or was that something you came to uh as an administrator?

SPEAKER_01 3:14

Not a formal background. I think I just found my way as I went. Um, I mean, I I think I have a little bit of a bent towards, I mean, obviously I'm a sort of a digital native in terms of my age, so that I had that going for me and maybe have a little bit of an entrepreneurial innovative spirit. Um, but no, definitely not any formal education or formal training in those areas.

SPEAKER_00 3:38

So when uh you gave us a little of the background of Seminary Now, if you were just talking to someone who had no idea uh what Seminary Now was, what's the sort of uh elevator pitch for the platform?

SPEAKER_01 3:49

Yep. Yeah, it is a streaming video platform um that makes seminary type content accessible to the masses. So that I mean, that's the first thing I'd want to say in terms of some comparison points or reference points. Uh people are familiar with masterclass. So masterclasses in the secular space, these uh often celebrity type persons or these uh persons who are well known in their field doing these short, obviously non-credit um video courses, it's high production value, it's streaming video. So that's really uh probably the best comparison point to what we're doing in the theological space. Um so it's the same model, streaming video, it's subscription-based, it's all access. So in that sense, it's similar to Netflix or other sorts of streaming services. Now, of course, we're in the educational space, not the entertainment space. Um, but that's really the purpose, is uh at a very affordable rate and therefore accessible to the masses, providing really good content for people who wouldn't be able to go to seminary.

SPEAKER_00 4:57

Uh with seminary now, what uh at the sort of highest level, what are you hoping to accomplish? So you're talking about making seminary education available to the masses. What what's the you know, what's the bigger goal of making that education available? What do you hope changes um either in the church or in individual people?

SPEAKER_01 5:16

Yeah, there's uh several. I I think the primary purpose and the primary mission are to educate church leaders. It does get into audience a bit. So I would say that our primary audience is church leaders, but there are secondary audiences as well. Um we created it for emerging church leaders, people that might not, for a variety of reasons, be able to go into seminary. Uh, but a couple secondary audiences would be once we created it, churches came to us and said, well, we want to use it for small groups too. We want to use it for discipleship and adult education and those sorts of things. And so we've provided ways and created ways for them to do that. Uh other secondary audiences um would include, for example, uh just educated lay people. This dovetails actually a little bit with the work that you do and potentially your audience, uh, which is to say there are lots of people who want something more than what they might get in your average Sunday school class.

SPEAKER_00 6:20

Right.

SPEAKER_01 6:21

And so they're not necessarily on, they're not necessarily church leaders in the in the formal sense. Um, they may be elders or deacons in their church potentially. Sometimes this is uh also a case of uh imagine people in a university context who are academics and they are have a PhD in in biology or sociology or whatever it is, and they go to church and they're also wanting to connect with their faith in a deeper way than what they might get on Sunday. Now, I'm that isn't to replace church or local churches and what's happening on Sunday because actually that's core part of the Christian faith. Um, but it is something a deeper level that they can go into that they might resonate with more because they appreciate that higher level in the academic because that's what they do in their career. Um there is those are the types of secondary audiences that uh we're reaching. It's not just church leaders, but uh a wide variety of other people who are interested in the content as well.

SPEAKER_00 7:28

So just to round out our understanding of what seminary now is, what are the actual types of courses that are offered and uh types of uh faculty or teachers that offer the courses?

SPEAKER_01 7:39

Yeah. It's a wide spectrum of courses. I mean, it sort of mirrors what the breadth of a seminary curriculum in terms of topics, although we we do a bit more than is traditionally in a seminary curriculum. So for example, uh obviously we do Bible and theology and church history and ministry skills uh formation. Those are sort of the core areas of a seminary curriculum. So we cover all of those. I would say also that in the category of contemporary issues, we're able to do a bit more than what you might typically get in a seminary curriculum. Uh that could be social issues, it could be uh the kinds of issues that the church is facing and church leaders are struggling to know how to handle and deal with in culture uh and a variety of things like that. So that's really the spectrum. Uh the type in terms of the voices of the teachers, we're drawing really from leading professors and authors. Some of those come from partner seminaries, uh, from Northern Seminary and other partner seminaries. Others come are publishers. We have a relationship or a partnership with Innvarsity Press. And so a lot of the teachers come from IBP authors as well.

SPEAKER_00 8:55

Uh one thing that is on your website is uh uh talking about the diversity of voices required to help church leaders meet the demands of ministry today. Talk a little bit about that commitment to, and then you you name later on in that same paragraph um uh neglected contributions of women and persons of color. How does that fit into the sort of broader seminary now uh mission?

SPEAKER_01 9:18

Yeah, well, it it number one, it's a core value uh of ours, it's part of our DNA. Uh in terms of the justification, the rationale, the theology behind that. I mean, we believe that um different people have a variety of perspectives that we that we need to learn from. I think that that's really the core of it. And certainly there have been um persons of color and women who have been historically um disadvantaged or their voice not platformed in the way that it should, so that their voice is heard by other people. So we want to step into that and say we value all of those voices and we think that everybody should be learning from those voices as well.

SPEAKER_00 9:58

Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. Um, in terms of if a student were to take a seminary now class, uh, do they do they take tests? Do they uh have to buy books and and other stuff, or is it sort of um uh is it all on the website or or how do how do students engage with it?

SPEAKER_01 10:17

Yeah, so the primary thing is the video content. So we create these high production videos. Uh we do have also for each course a comprehension quiz and a learning workbook. So there's a PDF uh workbook with questions, and you can uh complete that as you watch the videos, and then thereafter you can uh do the comprehension quiz. Now, I will say that different people decide to do different components of that. So there are some people who just want to watch the videos for personal enrichment. Uh, they might do it a bit more informally. For example, you know, just watching a video when you're on the train or when you're cutting carrots for dinner, you know, and in your kitchen. Um, so there are people who are uh opting not to do the workbook and the quiz, uh, but then there are other people who are considering it a bit more of a formal process for them and they're sitting down and they're being intentional about the workbook, they're completing the quizzes. The primary reason to complete the quizzes, well, apart from your own personal sense of completion and learning, is that we do offer certificates as well. So if if people do the full work and complete um uh the the full uh number of quizzes in a course track or a course learning track, we issue a certificate of completion for that. So that provides people a roadmap that they can start a series of courses and do all the work and earn us earn a certificate of completion from that. So everybody's a little bit different. Um we wanted to serve all of those purposes, really.

SPEAKER_00 11:51

For those who do want to get the certificate or sort of the more involved uh road, is there an ultimate uh on-ramp or hope that they'll become uh degree seekers or people who sort of go through uh the formal degree program at Northern or somewhere else?

SPEAKER_01 12:07

Yeah, it's a great question. And and it's very timely because yes, that's the thing that we're working on right now. Uh let me back up and give you a little context for that. So in offering this for the masses, non-credit streaming videos, our intention is never to replace traditional seminary or degree programs because we see a place for that as well. So this is not for us in either or. Um, in fact, we want to provide pathways for people to start with non-credit streaming video learning and then be able to take further steps into deeper education and then to matriculate into degree programs at seminaries. So that is our goal. And that's the thing that is really we're actively working on that this year. In fact, three days ago, we just sent a teaser email telling folks on our list about the first four credit offerings, first four credit courses that we're going to be offering in a pilot group this fall. Um, so that is happening. And and again, the intention is that this will be a bridge between seminary now and seminaries. For the students, it's a stepping stone. For the for the seminaries, it's also a pipeline, quite frankly. Um, and so yeah, that's our hope. We're developing that right now. It's actually really exciting. It's it's the new thing that we're that we're working on. And our hope is that we will that will be a starting point for people to get into degree programs at partner seminaries. Sometimes people who may have always envisioned themselves doing that, but other times people who may not really have ever envisioned that until they really started getting their feet wet at seminary now and begin to see themselves possibly doing that in the future.

SPEAKER_00 13:55

Yeah, always interesting. Uh new developments all the time in the in the digital education space. Um well, I want to move to talking in in a bigger sense, maybe even like a macro sense, about seminary now and sort of why now uh with something like seminary now. So uh many people are familiar with sort of thinking through push and pull factors for uh why some new project is developed. And pull tends to be sort of what's attracting energy and interest in a certain area, so in this case, in new digital education opportunities. And then the push factors might be ones that are sort of um uh pressures that are uh leading toward more creativity. And so I want to go through some of the pull factors and then some of the push factors as you understand them, Jason. So in terms of the pull factors, um, what is the you can even think of this like a marketing analysis or a market analysis of of sort of um the the possibilities of an online seminary uh platform? What is seminary now trying to meet? What's the demand that they're trying to meet? Um Yeah, we'll start with that. What what do you understand is sort of the the state of affairs that would lead people uh to want to do online seminary education?

SPEAKER_01 15:06

Yeah, good question. Um I would say, first of all, that uh our product, so to speak, or our uh delivery uh channel is quite well known now. So I mean, people have Netflix subscriptions, they have Disney Plus subscriptions, they have masterclass subscriptions. So when they see seminary now, they have a mental model as a comparison point to understand what it is. Um, I would say that uh another component of this is that, in my view, in a lot of ways with respect to online content, uh not just educational, but including on social media and other places, I would say video is king. So there's a, you know, just when you think about what people are spending time on, uh, YouTube is a big part of that. Um, for better or worse, you know, these one-minute short videos on TikTok and reels and those sorts of things. And I'm not saying that's even a good thing necessarily with uh what it might mean for attention spans of people and those sorts of things. But I think all of these are indicators that people really video is king in the digital age in which we live. Um and compared to, you know, if you go back to the early days of correspondence, distance education, you know, in universities or colleges or seminaries, um, this is quite far from that. It is on demand or asynchronous, um, but you're you're getting a sense of the person, right? You're watching the video. We're trying to create them in such a way that you you can almost see yourself in a classroom with that person, or begin to uh imagine what it would be like if you were talking to that person or learning from that person. So I think that's all of what you can do uh with video. Uh the fact that it's very high production value, I think, is aesthetically pleasing for people, and they they they like that component of it as well. So I think that's some of the background and context that pre-exists, us entering this space that is really provides um good ground for us to come into.

SPEAKER_00 17:17

One uh one thing I'm a historian of American religion, and uh seminary now to me is like the modern version of something that is at least good dates back to the 19th century, which is like the correspondence course or the audio course of the um of the mid-20th century. Do you ever think about that? Like sort of that there's every generation sort of has its way of every generation of seminaries, you could say, have their ways of trying to get their curriculum out to a broader group of people, both to recruit, but also because they think the broader church needs um more education. I don't know if you ever referenced that stuff when you're talking sort of the earlier versions of distance asynchronous uh education coming out of seminaries and colleges.

SPEAKER_01 17:58

Yeah, I like that comparison. Uh, I think you're right. And I would say really this is an example of just embracing technology, quite frankly. I mean, if you go back early enough to what you're talking about, I would imagine that that colleges were literally sending VHS tapes in the mail. Oh, sure, yeah. You know, cassettes or whatever it is. Um, and of course, with technology today, not only is it online, but it's streaming so that you know there's no downloads. Um and really in that sense, uh, that's where accessibility comes in. Literally anyone with an internet connection can access this content. Um yes, of course, in um our part of the world, but you know, the international side of this is um important as well.

SPEAKER_00 18:48

Well, on that point, is your um, I don't know if you want to share your actual audience, but is your intended audience uh how broad is it? Is there is there a desire to sort of reach a global uh Christian community, or are you mostly focused on sort of English speaking or North America type uh students?

SPEAKER_01 19:08

Yeah, I would say that um today we have we certainly have international persons using the platform. Um we want to do more with that. So I would uh the majority certainly today are in North America. Um we're wanting to be in the next year or two a bit more intentional with reaching international folks. Um probably the way that we'll do that is through coordinating and networking with mission agencies and denominations. Um and so that that is on our horizon for the future. Uh, but today partly because of the just again the accessibility and the affordability of it, right? Compared to what this would cost for persons to do more formal education, we think this is a really good fit for international audience.

SPEAKER_00 19:57

Yeah. One other aspect of the pull factor, I wonder if you could talk about. So we've talked about um the sort of demand for this being largely uh individuals or church leaders. Is there any sort of institutional demand? You just mentioned like denominations or um any NGOs or or nonprofits or are those types of uh uh uh clients or audiences that you're trying to reach, or is this largely sort of individuals uh signing up on their own volition?

SPEAKER_01 20:25

Yeah, it's it's all of the above. So we have um we do marketing to individuals, obviously. So I mean, people could find us through um an email that goes out through a partner, or they could find us through a Facebook ad, or they could find us organically from people sharing about seminary now on social media. So that's sort of that individual component. We also have um a church subscription. So for those people who want Seminary Now for their whole church, there are also nonprofits who use it for their staff. So from a leadership development standpoint or discipleship standpoint, Christian nonprofits who use it for that purpose. Um, there are also regional uh groups of say denominations that that use it. Uh but yeah, so yes, we're and we're we're in having conversations with um networks and denominations and agencies and such as well.

SPEAKER_00 21:20

Yeah. Um one last aspect on the poll. Is there a sense from your side that there's a particular need for uh seminary education right now, like as opposed to 20 years ago? Is there some like analysis of a decline in uh education level of of Christian leaders or or particular needs in particular topics? Um or or not. I don't know. I I'm just thinking of uh some of the other guests we've had uh on the program have talked about sort of a um some of them have talked about a crisis in Christian education or or in sort of the the level of literacy and engagement that a lot of Christians have with. With the Christian tradition or with the Bible. Do you have that same sense or is that sort of not part of how you're thinking of it?

SPEAKER_01 22:08

Yeah, I do. Now, of course, there's a lot of variables there. It partly depends on your church tradition and to what degree they value education. Now, and I don't want to equate education with seminary degree programs, because I obviously I want to find multiple ways to be educating people. And that's not always in the form of a master's degree. And that depends on the audience and various people involved. But there certainly are plenty of uh churches and church traditions that don't value education. Um and there's sort of some theological undergirding to that that I could probably pontificate about for some for some time, um, related to, in my opinion, the the desire to learn is is rooted quite frankly in humility. So one of the virtues, in my opinion, of education is humility. And I I don't want to disparage people who don't value education the same way that I do, but I sort of have seen occasionally there that there's maybe even a certain pride in it, like a go-it alone. Um, you know, I don't need other people's help. And what that means for me is that I can't benefit from from their learning, right? And I can't benefit from the work that they've done. I use an anal an example for this sort of thing quite frequently. Um I have my PhD mentor, Daniel Bloch, spent say 15 years studying the book of Ezekiel, and the result was uh a two-volume commentary that in total was, I don't know, 1600 pages, or maybe it was 2,000 pages. And I think that uh it would be hubris for me or anyone really to think that they can't learn from all the work that he did. You know, which isn't to say that there isn't evaluation and that you don't think for yourself, obviously, when you're reading his work on it. Um, but that to me is an example of uh the kind of posture we ought to have with education that we do need to learn from others. Not only because some of those folks are maybe smarter than me, but also they've spent more time on those areas. Um, for the average church leader or the average person in the pew, even, their calling in life is not to spend five years learning Hebrew, many of them, or not to spend 15 years living with the book of Ezekiel. Um, but for the rest of us, we do want to learn from those people. And that's for me represents sort of the broader point of the value of uh seminary education and learning from people who have gone before and and and put in that work and really had a life calling to learn and educate others.

SPEAKER_00 25:10

Yeah, I I uh think of uh my own case, and I've had good uh pastors along the way who um never gave off the sense that uh you didn't need to learn more. It was actually, you know, you learn a little and you realize how much more there is to learn. Um and that that creates sort of a posture of always wanting to learn more and realizing um none of us, uh certainly not um, well, I won't even I won't even go to ages, but certain not not even the oldest of us has a a totally comprehensive or worked out um understanding of something as complex as the Bible and the history and the languages and everything else that that goes along with that, let alone all the other areas of seminary education and theology and and elsewhere. So um yeah, really resonate with that. Um, I want to move on to some of the push factors. So we've we've talked a bit about what might uh attract a place like Northern, uh someone like you, Jason, to jump into the online seminary education. I want to think a bit about the push factors. So these would be ones that um have made seminary now sort of uh uh maybe, I don't know if it's necessary, but more feasible in recent years and as part of uh changing seminary education landscape. So um I don't know exactly uh which uh which uh angle uh to enter into with, but are there things happening in the seminary world, and you can use Northern as an example, you can just talk more generally that make the need to move into the online space um more pressing now than certainly maybe before COVID, but even in recent decades. You talked about at at Northern you were already experimenting with um online even before even before COVID. Um what's the sort of uh interest on the part of the the seminary to get into that space?

SPEAKER_01 26:54

Yeah, good question. Um I mean I'd like to say that first it it is mission. So I want to start there.

SPEAKER_00 27:02

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 27:02

Um in other words, if if our core mission is to educate primarily church leaders and others, then I don't want to limit ourselves to just one form of doing that, um, particularly a very expensive form and one that's uh hard to sustain in the in the 21st century. So um so that's it is mission, absolutely. I think you're also uh right that there is an institutional push on this, that um seminaries, I think in the 21st century are and will be more struggling. Uh many seminaries are declining in enrollment. Uh the future on that probably will be uh mergers and those sorts of things so that people seminaries can share resources. It's a quite costly venture when you think about all of the professors involved and the administrative components and whether they're you have a residential campus and all those sorts of things. And so, yes, that's absolutely a pressure point for seminaries. Uh that relates to this bridge that we want to create from seminary now to seminaries. And we think that uh there will there always be a place for seminary degree programs, um, maybe not for every person, but we want to provide, as I said before, pathways for people to be able to uh start, get their feet wet, and and see where God is calling them and leading them to in terms of further education. So if that means that in the end we have more students uh matriculated into degree programs at at uh seminaries, which is one of our outcomes, then that will be something positive for sustaining seminaries in the 21st century.

SPEAKER_00 28:58

What's your read on the declining uh demographics, I guess you could say, of uh or the the pool of students that want to um join seminaries and get degrees? Is that just sort of a demographic is destiny, demographics is destiny type thing where there's just um less uh, I don't know, I less Christians in the country or something, and and so fewer of them um are interested in seminary education. Um is there uh yeah, yeah. What do you think the the sort of situation is in terms of the demand for seminary education?

SPEAKER_01 29:30

Yeah. Uh I I take sort of an all of the above approach on this. So I I think part of it could be uh the decline decline of the church or to some degree Christian faith uh in our culture in general. Um I don't think that's solely it. I think part of it could be something I referred to before, uh, which is that some church traditions aren't uh expecting or requiring that level of formal education for pastors. Um that that's certainly a component of it. It's also possible that people are able to get educated in a less formal way through uh books, yes, but but dare I say even YouTube as well, whether it's professors or who are lecturing or doing podcasts. Obviously, there's a lot of learning out there on any number of topics that you can do. And so uh those are all probably factors that perhaps give people alternatives to feel like they can um educate themselves to some degree in a less formal way.

SPEAKER_00 30:38

Yeah. Um okay, let's talk a bit about the challenges to this type of uh online education. Can you just tell me about some of the challenges you faced um with Seminary Now? Is there are there any particular sort of uh perennial challenges or or um they could even be technical ones, I'm not sure, but but yeah, what have been the sort of most uh uh interesting problems that that you've confronted with Seminary Now?

SPEAKER_01 31:05

Yeah. That's a good question. Um part of it is uh a little bit just on the networking side. Um we have reached a lot of audiences through, for example, our partners and that sort of thing. Um I think our brand awareness is growing, but I think there's still a lot more room to be reaching more people um so that we can have a greater impact. That's certainly part of it. Um from an educational standpoint, I think we've wrestled with uh what are we accomplishing with what I would call the level of content. In other words, the the first thing that we've done in these non-credit courses is uh you know relatively short, compact, concise video courses. They're not at the level of the master's uh of master's credit, certainly. Um so I think I I've I have wrestled a little bit with should the content actually be deeper, should it be more involved? And I think we're addressing that now with these four credit courses, uh, whereby people who uh for most people the content in the in its current form is probably right for them. But for those people who do want to start there but then want to go deeper, I think these four credit classes that we're developing are are providing an avenue on that.

SPEAKER_00 32:44

And with these four credit, uh just to clarify the model, so is the idea that you you take some classes uh through the um seminary now and then those transfer into a a seminary, um whether it's northern or maybe there's other ones that are also accepting those credits. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 33:03

Yeah, we have about five seminary partners right now, and and the the vision is that each partner school would offer courses. So you're actually taking a course from that school. Um, and at the end of the day, you will receive a transcript with credits that from that particular school. But the course is being delivered through the seminary now system. Um, and so in that sense, it's a little bit of a mediated um experience of that partner school, but it's that partner school's professor, and that and you're really engaging, and and we're we're trying to really give them an experience of what it would be like to take a course from that school or from their professors. But yes, it's it's mediated through the seminary now system. And then our goal is that these are really exploratory. It provides people a taste of seminary. Uh, we won't let them take half a degree program or a whole degree program through seminary now. They'll be able to take three or four or five or six classes, uh, roughly a semester's worth of classes. And then really from there, we yes, we want them to convert or to matriculate into a degree program at a partner seminary. And and those all of those credits that they earned through this exploratory experience will apply or be credited towards their degree program.

SPEAKER_00 34:23

Right. Okay. That makes that makes sense. Um, you mentioned uh sort of the role of uh YouTube. You even mentioned TikTok as sort of one of these video is king platforms. I wonder if this has been a challenge at all, which is um your mission is to deliver much more uh substantive uh content than either TikTok or I'm YouTube varies. There's there's a lot of good stuff on YouTube, but there's also a lot of uh junk and sort of light, light fair as well. Has that been the challenge to try to try to I I think even on the production side, like how do you make a video about a sort of theological topic or a biblical topic interesting in a way that would hold the attention of people the same way that YouTube does or that all these other sorts or Netflix or whatever? Is that a is that sort of a conversation that goes on in the production level? Is is it can't I assume it's not just take your lecture notes uh that you would give in class, read them in front of the camera, and then voila, we have a great uh you know, a great video. I assume there's a lot more work done into it to make those high production values and to make it in some way appealing to uh people who are used to other online video content.

SPEAKER_01 35:34

Yeah, it's a good question. Uh and that actually, in a sense, is one of the challenges that, and you asked about that earlier. Um if you if I were to say, well, who what is the what are the alternatives that are out there for people? Or you know, what are the even the competitors to seminary now? I think in a sense, that the biggest competitor is just all the free content that's out there in the world. And so why should people pay for our content? And granted, it's it's very affordable. I probably said this before. I mean, essentially$20 a month is access to all of our content. So I it's intended to be very affordable for people. But nevertheless, why pull out your wallet and actually pay for this content when you can get it or similar things on YouTube? Right. I think there's a couple answers. Um, one of them is that uh YouTube often is podcasts and podcasts are great. Um, or podcast type, you know, interviews, those sorts of things. But also a lot of it is lecture recordings, which are quite low production value. So I do think that the production value side of it, just from a video standpoint, is a distinguishing factor, and people feel like they're signing up for something that's similar to master class in that regard. Uh also I would say the exclusivity of the content. So, like, you know, if you're gonna if you're talking about masterclass, if I want to go learn from Steph Curry about how to dribble a basketball, um that's probably probably that's probably not on YouTube, right? Like, so at least not in the same way. And so there's an exclusivity component that this this content is only accessible. Now, there are things that are similar. Um we have a course on with John Walton on Genesis 1. And you could probably find lectures of him teach uh talking about that topic on YouTube, um, but probably not quite in a course format, in a sort of a coherent uh structured uh teaching way. So I think that there are a lot of ways in which our content is different than and unique than from some of that content that's out there for free. Um and then you also you asked about one more thing.

SPEAKER_00 37:55

I think you asked about um Well, just sort of the production values or the the attention span. I mean, thinking just about how how to reach the people you want to reach who are really conditioned, and I would count myself in this, by the way, conditioned as sort of really short, catchy video content, and and you're asking for something longer.

SPEAKER_01 38:14

Yeah, a couple things. Um, when we're selecting teachers, we are thinking about and factoring into that selection who can talk in an engaging way, quite frankly. Um that's not true of everybody, right? But that's not relevant if you're picking up a book, right? Right. That that author does not have to be an engaging speaker. But for this delivery format, we that is certainly something we're taking into consideration. Uh with respect to length, and that's I think that's what you were alluding to a little bit there, one of our values or practices is short video segments. So we've we've basically decided that however long our total video content is for a course, uh typically that's two and a half to three hours for these non-credit courses. But for the four credit courses which we're creating right now, it's gonna be significantly longer. Like for those four credit courses, we'll probably produce five times as much video content. So instead of two and a half hours, it might be 10 hours of video content. But in both cases, we're chunking it. So even if it's 10 hours of video, we're gonna put it in a bite-size format because we do think there is something about um, you know, the human psyche, or you know, pedagogically about um, you know, not sitting down and watching a 55-minute video. And I think the the outcome is the same, right? You can sit down and watch two or three of those in one sitting, but I think psychologically it just feels a little bit different compared to feeling like you have to make it through a 55-minute video.

SPEAKER_00 39:56

Yeah, and I even think I I think of something um another type of online thing I was just doing uh for another part of Upper Housework that had um a similar thing where it chunked out like a 50-minute well it was it was produced on five minute levels, but it was it was 10 five-minute videos, which just psychologically feels better than one 50-minute video for whatever reason. Partly because you can put it down and then bring it, pick it back up again and you know where you were and stuff. But um uh yeah, that that's definitely um definitely a smart thing to play into in terms of uh the human condition, I think. Get getting getting bite-sized. Um, okay, just a couple more questions here. I did wonder your thoughts on you mentioned you mentioned a bit about the relationship of seminary now to sort of adult education in the church and and other forms of education that might be available. This series is on Christian education more broadly. So we're thinking in this series of everything from a formal seminary degree to Christian colleges to Sunday school at church, um, to uh K through 12 education, all types of Christian education. How do you see seminary now relating? You'll have to go through all those, but in sort of a broader ecosystem of of Christian education, what role do you hope it plays in the broader ecosystem of Christian education?

SPEAKER_01 41:13

Yeah, maybe the thing that uh those different use cases and contexts and audiences have and have in common are the way to differentiate them is partly their purpose and and what they're using it for. Um but I would say that we definitely think the content can meet all of all of those needs. So I I mentioned, for example, and I don't know if I referred to this when I talked about it earlier, but um we've had some conversations with a group um from University Christian Fellowship, I think probably rooted at UW Madison, about that class of people that are academics. They may be professors, maybe they're in PhD programs. Um, and yet when you think about campus ministry and um how are we ministering to and educating and forming Christians on campus, um that is one of, I think, an important use case for seminary now. Um and so we've done some work with them to make seminary known among those sorts of folks as well. Um from a from a Christian, a lay Christian audience standpoint as well, uh different people in the pew are at different levels, and I mean that in the best way. Um there are some people who perhaps aren't ready for our level of content yet, but many are. And and each course is a little bit different. Some of our courses are more um in tune with for that sort of use case. Uh, let me give you one example. Um one of our courses is from Sandra Richter. It's called The Stewards of Eden, which is a course about scripture and environmental stewardship and creation care and those sorts of things. Um, or another one is from Carmen Imes. Uh, she has a book called uh Bearing God's Name, and it's sort of an introduction to Old Testament theology, but it's something that really resonates with the average Christian who's trying to make sense of the Old Testament. So there's a lot of content in that sense that's just that's just really good for small group use um and adult education in churches. So our what we call church subscriptions include both of those facets, both leadership development and discipleship. Uh, we want it to be that a church can send um emerging leaders through a learning track. And that's sort of their their leadership development um program, if you will. And incidentally, some churches aren't even thinking. About those sorts of things, but we want them to be thinking about them more. In other words, how are you identifying and equipping and training your emerging leaders and your current leaders? And we think seminary now, quite frankly, is just a good tool for that. We want to come alongside churches in that regard. Like we really at the end of the day, they're implementing. They might be the ones to provide the structure and the accountability and maybe even some group dynamics around how people experience that content. So it's it's collaborative in that sense. Um, but we want to be a tool that churches can use for both the leadership development side as well as the adult education or the discipleship side of it as well.

SPEAKER_00 44:46

Yeah, and that makes sense with the digital um asynchronous way to do it, right? That makes it so much more convenient for churches in particular to get on board. Um then I'm just thinking of like staffing and and uh if you do it the traditional way, having a staff person sort of take up seminary uh classes can be you know a big part of their job for the next two to three years or however long it takes. Um this would be a way to maybe mitigate some of that um some of that uh commitment, um, at least in terms of time and and location. Um okay, Jason, just a couple questions on a bigger picture here to close us out. So I want to pull back from just um digital education and the seminary now platform and just get your sense of what when I when you think of sort of Christian higher education or even just the seminary world, what is the what are the hurdles that you're facing right now as an institution, as an educator? Um and then I'll ask you about uh where you think we're going um in in the near future. But first, just what are the top uh couple things that come to mind when you think of hurdles on the broader education landscape right now?

SPEAKER_01 45:56

Yeah, I mean, probably the first thing is just the sustainability question that we referred to earlier, um, which is to say seminary now in its current or traditional format is costly. And thinking through how to make it sustainable for the 21st century. Um, so that's probably, I mean, to be honest with you, that's an existential question. Of course. And so I think in that sense, that's probably what's on most seminaries' minds. Now, that's both a challenge and an opportunity, right? Because on the one hand, you could uh shrink, so to speak, to the challenge, and then uh double on Chandra here, shrink sort of in numbers and as well. Um or you could lean into that and say, well, what how can we uh innovate and evolve, and how can we meet the new the new demands and the new needs that people have out there and meet them where they are. And so I think in that sense, something like Seminary Now uh is an example of that. Um other challenges, um I I think uh denominational seminaries um might be challenged a little bit as well. Um there's fewer students to go around. If if people have a strong pipeline from their denomination, sometimes that can go well. Uh what we've seen at Northern Seminary is that uh when people can do probably most seminaries these days without moving, right? So like distance programs and not even just in the old asynchronous way, but but in these newer um synchronous and and video conference type ways as well. People can pick one of a hundred seminaries and they don't have to move to Houston or uh Los Angeles or wherever else. So that does really, it's it really becomes a marketplace for people to select their seminary. There's a variety of factors. Sometimes it's denominational, but when it's not denominational, I think at the end of the day, it's a little bit about who is your tribe, for better or worse. Um, and it's also a bit about um learning from people that you regard to be, you know, the people, the put types of people that you read their books. And maybe they're your theological heroes. Now, there's a little bit of a danger there. I I don't it some to some degree it just is what it is. Uh I don't I don't want to create a celebrity culture around that either, but that is one component of uh the seminaries that are doing well, and maybe some of the seminaries that aren't doing well just from a sheer um demand and interest standpoint.

SPEAKER_00 48:48

Yeah, so I hear you say two things there. One is that um there is an element of of uh well, you said what tribe be part of. So I'll say tribalism. I don't know, maybe that that's ratcheting up too far, but a sense of some people are being more discerning based on um based on variety of theological, cultural, other factors where they want to go to seminary. And the other thing I heard you saying was that the marketplace has sort of nationalized or even internationalized in a way where location matters much less now that now that you can go to any um any well-known seminary, uh maybe top five known seminary, and you can probably get a degree there um in in a way that uh uh would be co uh would would be like going to somewhere that's more local, maybe that that that sort of flattens the marketplace in a way and means being in a certain region doesn't really help you as much as it used to. Is it? Yeah, okay. So that's where that's really interesting. And um I can definitely uh get a sense of that just even reading the the sort of Chronicle of Higher Education news coming out about the the struggles of certain seminaries, that that helps make sense a bit of of why they might be under so much pressure. Yeah. Um last question is just giving give us a sense of uh maybe one thing that you're looking for in the future uh for Christian higher education. Is there either some uh uh well you could say a looming thing that sort of is is is haunting your your dreams or something that you're looking forward to um in the next uh few years or decade or so um in Christian higher ed?

SPEAKER_01 50:24

Yeah, maybe I'll mention a couple things that I'm hopeful about slash excited about. Um I think one of them is the idea that institutions can begin to work together more. Um, you know, is that an efficiency of resources issue? Yes. But I think a little bit it's laying down our um, you know, survival instincts a little bit, you know, for each of us and coordinating. So that that excites me for the future. Um another component of the a little bit different is um I'm pretty interested in what you might call dual enrollment type situations. Um that could happen at a variety of levels. I mean, you've got uh juniors and seniors in high school who are taking college credit, and it sort of counts both ways, but that can also happen at the undergrad and and graduate level. Um, of course, there are uh sort of a short um this we talk about like a five-year BAM div program, which would traditionally take seven years, and some schools have collaborated to find ways to reduce the redundancies uh across degree programs and have dual credit um options so that such that uh some of those classes are counting in both directions. That's really interesting to me, and I and I think um an important part of the future so that we can provide pathways for people and more efficient ways for people to go deeper in their education.

SPEAKER_00 52:01

Really interesting. Thanks for those thoughts. Um for those listeners, uh do check out, I did not in the way that you need to uh subscribe to it, but check out the Seminary Now website. Just it's an interesting sort of presentation that does look a lot like uh Masterclass if you're familiar with that or some of these other online platforms uh in the terms of production values and stuff. So um really interesting to think about uh how much uh that's gonna shape uh particularly people going forward, their experience of Christian education are these uh these platforms like Seminary Now. So uh Jason, thank you for joining us on With Faith in Mind and sharing about your work.

SPEAKER_01 52:39

You're very welcome. Happy to be with you.

SPEAKER_00 52:43

Thanks for joining us. If you've enjoyed today's podcast, be sure to subscribe and give us a rating on your favorite podcast app. Also, be sure to check out our upcoming events on upperhouse.org and our other podcast, Upwards, where we dig deeper into the topics our in-house guests are passionate about. With Faith in Mind is supported by the Stephen and Laurel Brown Foundation. It is produced at Upper House in Madison, Wisconsin, hosted by Dan Hummel and John Terrell. Our executive producer and editor is Jesse Koopman. Please follow us on social media with the handle at Upper House UW.