Church Education Beyond Sunday Morning

Tiffany Malloy, Pastor of Spiritual Formation at Blackhawk Church in Madison, WI joins Dan Hummel to talk about the role of spiritual formation in the church beyond Sunday services, the challenges that churches face, and the hope she has for the future.

Learn about Tiffany Malloy & Blackhawk Chruch

Watch Tiffany's recent message: The Empowered Church: The Body of Christ

With Faith in Mind is produced at Upper House in Madison, Wisconsin and hosted by Director of University Engagement Dan Hummel and Executive Director John Terrill. Jesse Koopman is the Executive Producer. Upper House is an initiative of the Stephen & Laurel Brown Foundation.

Please reach out to us with comments or questions at podcast@slbrownfoundation.org. We'd love to hear from you. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:04

Hello and welcome to With Faith in Mind. I'm Dan Hummel, today's host and the Director of University Engagement at Upper House. This episode is part of our series on Christian education at the crossroads, and we're welcoming Tiffany Malloy to the podcast. Hi, Tiffany.

SPEAKER_01 0:18

Hi, how are you?

SPEAKER_00 0:19

Doing well. Excited for our conversation.

SPEAKER_01 0:21

Me too.

SPEAKER_00 0:22

A little about Tiffany. She is the pastor of spiritual formation at Blackhawk Church, which is actually where I go. It's also where my wife works, full disclosure at the front end. Also about Tiffany. Before she was the pastor of spiritual formation, she played a number of other roles at Blackhawk Church, including as an associate pastor at the downtown site of Blackhawk in Madison. And she has a Bachelor's of Science in Education from the University of Missouri, Columbia, and an MA in Christian leadership from Asbury Theological Seminary. Tiffany, are you from Missouri?

SPEAKER_01 0:56

I am from Illinois. Okay. Just a small town right outside St. Louis.

SPEAKER_00 1:01

Okay. Okay. What what m what drew you to University of Missouri?

SPEAKER_01 1:04

Yeah, well, um, I had narrowed it down to three schools, and that was my closest school. And so when I visited the campus, it was kind of my my fallback school. I wasn't really quite sure I wanted to go to a state school, and I fell in love with the campus. And so uh that's so you went there. Awesome.

SPEAKER_00 1:23

Okay, well, before jumping in on our topic today, which is gonna be about uh Christian education in the church. Um Tiffany, I know you a little bit uh personally. One thing I know about you is you are a voracious reader. Uh you read a lot of books. Love to read. So is there a story behind that? Are you or have you always been a reader? Is there a particular reason you like reading so much?

SPEAKER_01 1:46

Poorly, always. I remember when I was little, I shared a room with my older sister who was seven years older than I was. And she was wonderful and loud and messy and took up a lot of space. And so I remember um to kind of I was very introverted. And so to get away from the loudness and the chaos, I would go into our shared closet where there was a light and I would put pillows all around and I would just read for hours. And so I think maybe it began as a way to kind of escape the good chaos of our shared life together. Um, but I have found, yeah, I have found just such fun in both fiction and nonfiction. I um growing up, definitely fiction. And then once I hit high school, I moved to nonfiction and and recently um as a 40-year-old have moved back into reading fiction. So um I think it's just a great way to, I think, right, there's so many lives to live. And so by we only get one, but by reading, I think we get to live a lot of different lives.

SPEAKER_00 2:49

Yeah. Is there a particular genre that you enjoy a lot?

SPEAKER_01 2:52

Oh, I mean, you know, maybe this is I do read a lot of well, right now, nonfiction and so leadership nonfiction or, you know, Christian theology, different things. So maybe that's super nerdy, but pretty typical pastors. But I do love like Reese Witherspoon's fiction, book of the month. So that's where I that's where I go for for pleasure.

SPEAKER_00 3:12

So very cool. Well, I think we'll we'll talk a little about uh later on the role of at least uh being a lifelong learner in um spiritual formation. So um so jumping in, I thought it would be helpful to just get a sense of what brought you into this line of work.

SPEAKER_03 3:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:28

Um so basically, how'd you find find your way into the vocation of a pastor? Yeah, and particularly a pastor of spiritual formation.

SPEAKER_01 3:34

Right. What an unusual uh place that I'm in. I think if you would have told my 10-year-old self that this is where I would be, they wouldn't know what to do with that. So um I didn't really grow up in the church, uh, became a Christ follower in middle school. Um, but in high pretty soon, right, I began to uh just be so fascinated by uh Christians' relationship with the Bible. I thought it was interesting, like that they read it every day and that every Sunday we were opening and teaching it, teaching out of it, and it just seemed like the sacred book. And so began reading it myself and then then wondered how what other people thought of it. So I I began a um like kind of a Bible study, which I didn't really know that's what it was, but in in my high school, inviting other Christians from other churches who um I wanted to hear what they thought of it, right? And so um so did that. I think I was so interested in how people grow and how people are formed from the very beginning. Um, went to campus, um, went to college, was a part of a campus ministry again, really enjoyed that experience, meeting with younger students, um, learning about how their culture and how their family and how their church background has kind of influenced where they are and and what questions they were wrestling with. Um, loved it so much. I went on staff at a campus ministry for a few years. And again, um, where I think that's where God was continuing to grow, that um my love for environments of growth and and what does it mean for what does it take for somebody to be open to what God has for them in their lives?

SPEAKER_00 5:08

Um, you know, Did you feel a particular calling to college students or I mean I thought so.

SPEAKER_01 5:14

I think it's because that's where that's who I was and that's where I was at. And so I had thought, oh, maybe I'll be, you know, a college pastor. Uh well, not a pastor, because that wasn't in the in the denomination that was a part of. That wasn't really an option. So I didn't really maybe know what I wanted, but but I did begin to sense that that maybe God had something like that in mind. And so I ended up going to Asbury uh theological seminary, again, where um I I love the Bible, but I felt like, you know what, I do love the Bible, and I think that my natural learning can take me far in that, kind of on my own or reading different things. But I had experienced all throughout college, um, just maybe some people, some leaders in my life who were making what I thought were kind of poor leadership decisions, and I could see how it was impacting the growth or not growth of the people in our communities. And so, um, and so when I went to seminary, I I thought I need to learn how organizations work, how systems work, how um all these things work so that I can make better choices because the the leaders in kind of our community were they were making these decisions out of the out of really good intent. I think they were really doing the best they had with the knowledge that they had, but um, I just don't think they really had taken the time to understand how organizations work and and some of the kind of leadership parts of it. So so that's why I ended up studying um and uh came out of that. I was by the time I graduated, I had three kids under the age of four. And so I ended up staying at home for a while while my husband did grad school. Um, then we ended up moving here to Madison. My husband was uh studying at the university, uh, education policy. Uh, and as soon as my kids, most of them were in school, I felt like, okay, Lord, this is time. What are we gonna do? And and so there was a job opening at Blackhawk, and I thought, oh, well, I've never like this is this was my church and we were a part of it, but you know, we had always been a part of kind of small churches and campus ministries, and so I wondered, uh, I don't know, what would it be like to work at a church? Um, so I was um uh I actually my first job was on the spiritual formation team. Uh and then had a variety of roles like you had mentioned.

SPEAKER_00 7:33

When you joined on that team, did you understand it and did you understand what spiritual formation was?

SPEAKER_01 7:38

I think that's a literally not.

SPEAKER_00 7:39

Okay, because that's a term I think that that has a sort of it's a churchy phrase. Um yeah, what what was that like sort of entering into this particular way of thinking about spirituality and education and all of that?

SPEAKER_01 7:51

Yeah. Well, I think it was a word that was kind of newer actually at the time as well, because I think traditionally maybe I thought of as discipleship. And I and I think that's what many people, even in our congregation, had considered that's the word that you use. And so um, I remember when um I first came on the team, um, the the pastor of spiritual formation at that time, you know, would sometimes share with me, like, oh, some people are a little uncertain about the use of this term, they don't understand it either. So he spent emails and conversations over coffee explaining, oh no, this is another word for discipleship and um it's about our our growth. And so I did have context for that. Um, so I did have context for kind of the Christian education world, um, is maybe what it had been called in some of the churches that I was a part of in college and um in youth group. And so um, so I did have a context for that. And that and that's always been my heart is um how I mean, I do want people obviously to come to know Jesus, uh, but often I feel like God has used me in the process of after they've come to know Jesus to to begin to develop them um in their relationship with God.

SPEAKER_00 8:54

And that even even the word discipleship, that might be uh a churchy word too, in some sense. So what um yeah, what's entailed by that? So I I can imagine someone who's unfamiliar with that term, or maybe it's used differently in different traditions, might think of like uh some type of mentor relationship is the key to disciple making disciples. Yes, Jesus had disciples, maybe you need to or it's like around certain disciplines, a related word. It's um where maybe in a legalistic sense, these are the things you do to be a good Christian type thing.

SPEAKER_03 9:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:26

So when you when you're using the word either discipleship or spiritual formation, what's sort of the what's the elevator pitch for for what that is?

SPEAKER_01 9:34

Yeah. I mean, I gotta say it's it's learning to walk with God in our daily lives. And so I think there's different forms that discipleship can take and that different people are like you had mentioned, are familiar with. I grew up in a campus ministry, one-to-one discipleship was what that's how you were a disciple, that's how you grew. That's um uh right, other people kind of focus on maybe a Sunday school experience where there's an expert or a teacher in the room and you're listening and you're having conversations and digesting the material. But I really do think it's how are you, how are you becoming more and more um formed into the image of Christ? And I would say more and more into the image of who God created you to be. So I don't think we're all supposed to look cookie cutter uh in the exact same way, but um it's all contextualized into how we're wired and what culture uh we grew up in and um the giftings that God has gifted us with. And so um yeah, I would say that's my Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:33

And I think um and maybe this is this is something that's come up in a few of our conversations around education, is there's an uh assumption that education is really a head thing, right? Like it's like intaking information and learning new facts and ways to interpret things. But as I've understood spiritual formation, it's trying to be uh I guess the word is holistic or something. It's thinking of um you know heart, mind, soul, strength, uh, altogether. Um is that how you think about it too?

SPEAKER_01 10:59

Absolutely. And you know, I yes, I would say that oftentimes, I would say even in maybe in my limited church experience, having really not really entered the you know, the church world until until middle school or high school, um, I have experienced uh this idea, maybe that um educ even Christian education or education or spiritual form discipleship is head-based. Like if you know something, then that means your life will be different. And so I do like the the nuances maybe of the spiritual formation movement where, you know, there is this author, um, his name is John Mark Comer, and he talks about how spiritual formation is less like learning math and more like learning karate, right? So this idea that it takes both knowledge and practice uh to really know something. Um and so I think that um right, that yes, spiritual formation is more than just belief. Um, but that belief is a huge part of shaping our desires and our practices and how we kind of show up in the world around us.

SPEAKER_00 12:06

Right. Yeah. Um so we we we uh we didn't actually finish your story. I I cut you off when you had joined Blackhawk. Yes. Um, but you weren't yet the pastor of spiritual formation. So what was it like to to sort of uh become the pat the sort of the the head of the ship of that?

SPEAKER_01 12:21

I know that was fun because I mean maybe I didn't say this before, but my first role on team was an assistant role. And so I remember just, you know, kind of being like, I don't know if I have time to even work outside the home, you know, as my kids were all little and stuff. And so I was able to to watch, um, to watch the team, to watch my boss at the time who was the pastor of spiritual formation, to make decisions, to figure out how he's talking about it. And I think it was such a gift to me to be able to see somebody else do it before I stepped in. But um I I like you had said, I after being on that team, I went downtown and was associate pastor downtown. And I began again, still began to help people to figure out how to live this out. So my job here, I spent so much time with our congregation over coffees, talking about where they were getting stuck in their relationship with God, how they could discover their gifts, how how they could be a part of the life of the body in different ways. And so, so I think even though I was on a different team, I was I was doing a lot of the implementing of it, helping to see how what the decisions that that team was making, how it was showing up in the daily lives of our congregation and of our community. So, um, so when I so when I came on um as pastor of spiritual formation, it was um it was I had the conversation early March 2020, so right before the pandemic hit. And I remember like three days later, it was like, okay, and this is not gonna be the job I thought because what are we doing, you know? Um, and so, but it has been so fun because I think that um being a part of the Black Hawk community, um, I I was aware of some of the things, some of the ways that we were praying that our community would move in. And so to be able to be a part of the creation of some new things that we had been dreaming about for years was really exciting um for me.

SPEAKER_00 14:12

So you you've mentioned um having a lot of coffees and and other things um as part of the job. Yeah. I think people outside the church world often wonder like, what does a pastor do? What does a pastor do? I get that question here at Upper House a lot. Uh, what do you do all day?

SPEAKER_01 14:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:27

Um husband asked me that.

SPEAKER_01 14:28

What do you do all day?

unknown 14:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:30

So what does a pastor of spiritual formation do um at a church like Black Ops?

SPEAKER_01 14:34

Yeah. So in this role, um, because it's a maybe a little bit of a larger church, I have um one of my big roles is I lead a team of incredible people, incredible people who are thinking about different areas of formation for our church. And so um we kind of think of the spiritual formation world as an ecosystem um for our church. And so we're we're watching kind of the different areas. So there's um there's what we do on Sunday mornings, right? That's a huge part of our ecosystem. There's uh community life. So in what we call community groups, um, so that's a big part. We have Bible study and courses, which the courses are new that we're doing this year, is um that's our learning arm where we're helping people to understand scripture and understand theology in in new ways. Um, and then we have um kind of a serving component where we're helping to mobilize and get people connected to serving opportunities as another way of them expressing uh their life with God.

SPEAKER_00 15:31

So um let's move to that. So there the the church has a number of ways it's thinking of spiritual formation. Um how does education fit into that? And um, I'll let you define education however you want, but I think there's um uh you just mentioned service as another role. So service would be, in my mind, sort of distinct from an education setting. Yep. I think what we're trying to understand here in this series is how do churches play sort of an educational role in the life of of so many Christians in their community. So yeah, how do you think about education in the context of formation?

SPEAKER_01 16:06

Yeah. Um I think for us, we have an arm that's kind of dedicated to that. So we kind of we have um we have three buckets, if you will. So we uh connect, which is more the community, the relationship aspect, we have learn, which is our courses and our Bible study and then serve, which is um that arm. And so uh for us, it looks like how do we help people in our local congregation uh to move in places into places that we um that we are recognizing the spirit moving us in. And so I think, you know, there's the basic education that the churches offer things, um, theology 101, how to study the Bible, um, introduction to spiritual practices, you know, things like this, and which are really important and probably are gonna happen in the church more than they might happen elsewhere. Um, but we also have these other areas that we sense that God is moving us in the congregation towards. And so we see the opportunity uh for us to really concentrate our this education in a way that's gonna help form people in that direction. And so maybe an example of that, uh, so at Blackhawk in particular, we believe that God is calling us to be a multicultural community. And so some of the choice, so we have to make choices every day that's in all of our different kinds of areas of ministry that's gonna move us in that direction. And so for us, you know, we are gonna have to make the decision to create spaces for people from different cultures and ethnicities to come together intentionally uh to talk about different topics. Or uh we're going to provide opportunities uh for uh white people to explore their identity, uh, their white identity if they've never explored that before, and to be able to wrestle with some of those ideas uh before moving into a multicultural space. And so um we're gonna talk about, we're gonna have specific, deeper dive conversations as to um what does it mean for crossing boundaries to be a spiritual practice? Like how do we do that together as a community? And so so that's just one example, but um, so I think there's those those general those general areas, but then also the particular areas that that God's calling a particular local body to grow in.

SPEAKER_00 18:24

Right. When when you think about these general areas, um, something like uh you know, changing a church's culture to be multicultural or something like that. Um are you looking to uh I'm trying I'm trying to think of like the way even a curriculum would develop in that. Are you um are you personally reading a bunch of books and then like sort of developing a perspective? Is it um are there sort of networks of churches that talk about this stuff? Is it consulting a seminary um where this might be uh there might be a scholar of um I don't know, multicultural ministry or something like that? Like how does how does it how's the internal working of developing though?

SPEAKER_01 19:01

Totally. Well, it's definitely a collaborative process. And so our team in particular, we have an amazing teaching, um, lead teaching pastor who we work closely with. And um we have a multi for for this example in particular, right? We have a multicultural team who is learning and and who is knocking on other churches' doors to say, hey, how did you do that? Tell us about the early years. Um, there's conferences, networks of churches who are in the trenches doing this kind of work, and so they get together every other year and we we go to that conference to say, what are you learning? How do we help our congregation to continue to grow? And we are reading so many books. Um uh a lot of us are reading a lot of different books, and so sharing with each other what are we learning. Uh, we do some experiments, and so a few years ago we did um these race and faith learning groups. And so that was our attempt. It's a basically a book club, but uh, we put out 10 different books, uh, all having to do um with race and ethnicity and the church. And so we said, hey, sign up for these, let's learn together, let's grow together. And so for a lot of us, we weren't very much further ahead than our congregation, but we were saying, let's learn together, let's be on this journey, this process. Um, none of us have arrived, but we think that the learning together part that uh is an important piece of this as well. So we continue to experiment, we continue to do things, but um, but for the most part, if I'm able to even kind of expand it out, it is. It's a lot of talking with other churches, it's a lot of um having conversation amongst ourselves, you know, um, experimenting, smarting, uh starting with small groups, trying something once and realizing, I mean, people said this was going to be a good idea, but we actually don't think this curriculum is really landing. So let's try something different before we before we expand to the kind of wider church community.

SPEAKER_00 20:49

And as as people are listening, I mean, if it if it's not clear, Black Ox's a pretty large church. It has uh big staff, so you have like a lot of you know people to bounce ideas off of and a lot of opportunities to experiment. I wonder if you could just reflect on what are the benefits and drawbacks of a large church like this? Because I think there's both. There's sort of the ability to do certain things, there's also certain challenges when you have thousands of people that you're you're trying to serve.

SPEAKER_01 21:13

Yeah, absolutely. I always talk about, you know, right, because there is there there's small church challenges and there's big church challenges. And I tell our interns when they're kind of talking about this, I said, you're gonna have problems either way. You have to choose what kind of problems you're excited about or willing to help overcome, right? So so I think um, you know, being a large church, things can move slow. Um, and that's hard. There's um, right, if there's thousands of people who are trying to move in a direction, and that's tough. And uh, you know, as you're leading and you're hearing feedback from different groups of people, you begin to question whether you're doing the right thing. Um, you're thinking about all the different stages uh of faith and stages of life, and sometimes To try to meet each kind of group where they are, it feels like it can take forever. And I think that that is one of the hardest things. You have to have a lot of tenacity. Um, you have to realize things are gonna take a long time. You're gonna have, you're realizing that you're not gonna make everybody happy. And so whether it's something like race or it's something um very different, uh, people aren't gonna like or agree with the kind of the choice that you're making. Uh, another hard part about Christian education, maybe and a big church, uh, is that sometimes you can feel like you have to go, there's a temptation to feel like you have to go lowest common denominator, like low shelf discipleship, because there's always gonna be people who are new, newer in the faith and gonna need to learn and not gonna be ready for these bigger conversations. And so, you know, it's this is it's not a secret that um, you know, I've had many conversations of black hawkers, black hawkers who've been around for 10 years, 12 years, and they have said, um, uh, you know, I feel like I've outgrown. I've and and that's you know, outgrown black hawk. And that's a common large church problem. It's not just our problem, it's it's it's a common um large church problem. And so because what they're saying is, oh, this kind of low shelf discipleship, which is intentional, really great for new believers, young Christians growing in their faith, but you kind of hit a wall. And so what, what do I do? How do I grow? And so that's a big challenge that we are our team is excited about and um that we're working to overcome. You know, but I would say in small churches, uh, I think right, some of the benefits are that you um you're able to dig in a little deeper, you're able to to move a congregation a little faster, you're able to um to do things a little more intentionally sometimes. And um it's yeah, it's it's easier to get people moving and and engaged. And so um, but yeah, so I think that's right.

SPEAKER_00 23:51

That you you sort of pick your poison. Yeah, you really do, right?

SPEAKER_01 23:54

What excites you and what are you willing to live with for you know your careers in ministry?

SPEAKER_00 23:59

One challenge, just as someone who's been a part of many large churches, um, that I noticed too, and it it goes right along with what you were saying, which is that a lot of large churches, like the the sort of the orientation of the churches toward growth. Yeah. And and sort of the success mark, the metrics of success are like are more people coming, are more people um, you know, sort of becoming members, all that kind of stuff. Yeah. And so it can lead to what you were talking about, which is an emphasis on sort of the new person, the the the non-Christian and bringing them in. Yeah. Which of course is uh I agree with. Um, but it does leave um a different type of growth, which might be a growing deeper or sort of a more discipleship model for the people who are already there and have been there.

SPEAKER_02 24:39

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 24:40

Um and I wonder if that so you you've I already identified that tension. Has that has thinking changed uh in the last few years on that? Um just based on COVID and uh I know a lot of churches are sort of rethinking basic uh strategies and things like that.

SPEAKER_01 24:54

100%. I mean, right, I think for many of us, small and large church, you kind of saw what happened to your church congregation uh when COVID hit, right? At first, people were excited to, I mean, in our case, to be online, right, to do church in a new way and you know, excited to be there for each other and continue to be in small groups and figure that out. But over time, um, as as that kind of the months waned on, we we saw a lot of people kind of step away. And we saw that they they were stepping away from the Sunday morning church experience. And that's what they thought they were only stepping away from. But then they actually, you talk to them later on and just stories after stories of like, actually, I just kind of stopped following Jesus altogether, right? And so they had for many people unknowingly, and and and our church, right? We we had substituted a life with God and this uh their spiritual growth, their spiritual education, you know, Christian education, if you will, we were just kind of all putting it in all of our eggs in kind of one basket was the Sunday morning worship experience, teaching, you know, and realizing maybe, you know, as this really tough time kind of was a kind of like a pressure cooker in people's lives, we kind of saw maybe the kind of Christ followers we had been forming. And I think for many churches, we kind of was a little wake-up call and um pretty determined, I think many of us on the other side to um to spend that time uh digging deeper, helping um people in our congregations uh to really focus on more than just the Sunday experience, but but their but their life with God and being able to talk about some of the things, um theology, you know, d different things to help them to ground ground them better.

SPEAKER_00 26:36

So and so that it sounds like that would put sort of the spiritual formation framework sort of more central to what the church is called to do, um, in the sense that um if there's a realization that that people aren't being formed the proper way in the old way, yeah, then it's the spirit is that sort of the spiritual formation is sort of the answer, at least the proposed answer.

SPEAKER_01 26:57

Yeah, yeah, I do think so. I do think it's like helping, and I think seeing again like this ecosystem that like this the Sunday morning experience is important and it has a place, but it it can't it can't hold everything. And so, yeah, being able to more robustly build these other um areas, helping people to see the value uh of engaging in this way. Oftentimes what this our team, a spiritual formation, looks like a a Monday through Saturday faith, like like what happens in between shirt, you know, when you gather on a Sunday morning. And so um that can be tough sometimes, even after COVID, to to um convince people that it's worth their time and it's worth reordering their whole lives around. Um, but I also think that I I think that's okay. I think that um, you know, the call of Jesus in our lives to be disciples is is a hard call sometimes. And so it's a choice that we all have to make of how are we gonna be choosing to walk with God and how are what are we gonna give our mind space to and our energy and our time. And so um, yeah, so I think it's okay. You know, what you know, uh one of the things that we talked about when we started creating these courses and different things is often with large churches, it's okay, we have to have a certain number of people to come to this event to make it worth it, to make it worth our time. But we have totally um that is not our thinking at all. We said if there are some of these courses, if there are five people who are showing up to this course because they want to learn how to study the Bible, it is gonna be worth our time. And we're gonna do it despite, it doesn't matter how many people show up, like with the people who are showing up, these are the people that we're gonna be pouring into, that we're gonna be um discipling because we believe that uh the church isn't just like a come and see kind of orientation. And because that has been a lot of the tractional large church model, but instead I kind of talk about the go and be. Like we are gonna be um discipling people so that they are out in their workplaces and in their neighborhoods and they're able to live their life with God in front of people on a way that um that makes sense to the people around them.

SPEAKER_00 29:05

So just reminds me of uh as someone who's a historian and and thinks about these things in sort of historian terms. There there was a phase, and Blackhawk was a part of this in the 90s and 2000s. It was it was one of one of the heights of the church growth movement, which was a certain way of thinking about church to sort of grow the people coming in. And there was a a lot done there, um, but there was a response to that, which was the missional church movement and and the sort of uh the the contrast you just said about like bringing people in versus sending people out. Like that was one of the core differences between those two sort of uh frameworks. Um so it's interesting how that those frameworks sort of work themselves out in very particular ways in the programming that a church does and where they put emphasis, if they're willing to have a five-person class versus this must have a hundred people for it to be worth our time or whatever. Um but it it's interesting to see how um that that sort of missional church movement that was pre-COVID, that was like 2010s or so or twenty two thousands, twenty tens. Um, but it seems like it it sort of is is fit for the moment, um the sort of post-2020 moment.

SPEAKER_01 30:05

Absolutely. And I think for us in particular, we're we're when like can we do both? I think that's our big like can we do both? Like, can we be a place that um where people who are not Christ followers are gonna feel um comfortable, where they're gonna be intrigued, where they're gonna hear um write the gospel share in a way that makes sense to their ordinary, normal lives that aren't church, you know, not the church world or but at the same time, can we also build um build disciples? And I and I think the answer is yes. Um and I think it, like we said, kind of creates an ecosystem. And so I think maybe in one or both of those models, you kind of different parts of your ecosystem are dying. And so how do you give, how do you tend all those parts?

SPEAKER_03 30:49

Right.

SPEAKER_01 30:49

Can we do it? I don't know. It's the great experiment that many of us are in right now.

SPEAKER_00 30:54

So that's right. That's right. So, Tiffany, I wonder if you could just talk a bit about how you see what you're doing at Blackhawk in relation to all the other educational options that might be available for someone, everything from YouTube videos that they can watch about the Bible or something, um, or about church history or something, to formal uh seminaries and and other things. And I'm sure at a place like Blackhawk, there's people going sort of dabbling in all those different things at different levels. Um, yeah, how do you how do you see your your work sort of in relation to that spectrum?

SPEAKER_01 31:25

Yeah, you know, I I do think that probably 85, 90 percent of our church, um, we probably are the sole place that they are getting Christian education. And so when I say that, it's actually surprising, maybe that I haven't maybe had that thought before. But for the most part, um, you know, we have found that many people in our congregation, right, they're working 40, 50, 60 hours a week. Many of them, maybe 40, 50% of them are raising children. Um, others are even we have a large tech company, you know, close by, they're working even more hours than that. And so the amount of free time if that outside of work and outside of family that people have to give uh to their own education is slim. And so I think I feel like we are fighting for the most part, um, we're fighting against those other kind of factors to to help people to to value this. And so um, and so so most of our congregation doesn't have time to engage in a seminary level course. Um, but I mean, we do try to to kind of point people in different directions. Um Bible project is a big one. They have courses um actually that they do, seminary-level courses that that we encourage people to to go after if they um if if they want that. But for the most part, I find that people they're not gonna uproot their lives to and and pay for this great university level um or seminary level education. Um, I am actually really thankful for Upper House because we we it's been a resource that we've been able to push kind of that 10% to that that do want to be challenged in their thinking, that they do want to think about ideas outside of their everyday, maybe what they come across in their everyday life. Um and so it's been a gift for us to be able to have a resource to be able to push people towards. But I would say in general, um we're kind of it.

SPEAKER_00 33:32

So you so you're thinking about when you're thinking about education, it's really like uh uh more or less assuming that whatever you say is gonna be sort of the totality of what um many people is there any is there ever maybe this is just you you do this privately, um maybe you don't do it publicly, but um you know we I totally agree with you that m people are busy, I'm busy, kids, all that kind of stuff. You know, we do know the stats of like how much time people spend on phones, how much time they watch Netflix and other streaming things, and it's like, you know, people make choices about people make choices. And and those choices often, as we've been talking about, sort of lead to certain habits that form you in certain ways. Is there ever sort of the prophetic edge where um you just wish people would spend more time uh educating themselves?

SPEAKER_01 34:17

I mean, to be honest, if I could point the finger at myself, right? I mean, I on Sunday mornings it gets so funny. If you have an iPhone, it's actually probably during the Sunday morning church service, if you're attending that, is that you get your uh report for the week. Uh so we're all like ding right during the sermon. And we're like, oh wow, I have spent a lot of time on my phone, right? So I mean, even for myself, I see this. But um, and I actually think that's something we do talk to our congregation about. Um, I think just this maybe a past week or two, right? Or our one of our um teaching pastors, right, saying, like, hey, to be honest, if you have two hours to like just to scroll on your phone, you have time to get into scripture. You have time to watch a Bible project video, you have time to read a book, you know. Um, one of the things that we do for each of our sermons is that we we have a series resource page or we put kind of some next steps if people want to dig deeper. So a book or a podcast episode or an article to read. Um and so we do definitely encourage people in that way. But I would say for the most part, those things uh aren't probably as utilized as much as as much as we wish that they were. But um but when they are, it's so fun to hear just kind of the conversations that come up uh in our congregation. But right.

SPEAKER_00 35:32

And this might this next question might um be restating a few things here. But what do you see are the biggest challenges to um to your work uh to to educating the congregation? I think we've mentioned sort of uh time limitations uh being one, but but what else?

SPEAKER_01 35:46

I mean, to be honest, I would say busyness is the enemy of our spiritual growth as human beings in America, in an overeducated city. I think um that alone, I think is the hardest thing. We are competing with uh so many other things for people's time and attention. And it's hard to grow when you even say, okay, great, I have five or ten minutes to to give like that's not like you know, like the reflective life. Like like we grow when we reflect on our our experiences and what we're learning. And when we don't have time in our lives to reflect, I don't actually think that we're growing um in our lives with God. And so I do think that that's the that's the biggest one.

SPEAKER_00 36:35

Yeah. Um well, and that might get to um uh this question. When uh if you could snap your fingers and sort of uh the congregation is sort of embodying a mature, spiritually formed what what does that look like? What what are you sort of aiming for? Uh for the knowing that most of us will always fall fall short of the ideal, but what are you aiming for?

SPEAKER_01 36:57

Yeah, I think you know, I think the church um being the body of Christ uh in a real everyday lives, in our real everyday lives where we are spending time with God and spending time with each other, where we are re-orienting, we're orienting our entire lives um around the community and around um doing good work in the world, um, but in ways that aren't frantic and in ways that um where we can trust um that the work that we're doing is is enough. Um where we're spending time in the evenings with each other, right? Instead of scroll, you know, watching Netflix because we're all really tired. We've given all that we can. Um serving one another, serving in our communities. I think so much of what I do on our, you know, as I'm trying to help form people into the image of God, what that it's it's for the good of our world. It's for the sake of the mission. Like that's the that's actually the point. That's um, we become more like Christ, not to be better people, but to to reflect God to the world. And it's hard to do when we're not spending time with people, um, slowing down and and having that space with one another. And so um, so that would be my dream for our congregation.

SPEAKER_00 38:20

I wonder this is something that's attracted me to some of the spiritual formation literature, is this like fundamental insight I think of Dallas Willard as someone who which is like um you as an individual within a community, like there are things you can do uh to be more Christ-like. Uh just that that fundamental insight, which I think for a lot of Christians, they either just don't think that, they think there's this unattainable goal, and I'm just gonna sort of try to muddle through uh and not really um uh develop, or maybe some people assume we're just so sinful. There's just like nothing, it's just about sort of um asking for forgiveness or whatever or something like that. And I think that that's what's uh been appealing to me about this particular way of thinking about formation, thinking about education, is um there are things we can do as as individuals to um and and some of them are learning things, but some of them are actually practices that get us uh to to what uh your your vision is.

SPEAKER_01 39:21

My goodness. I mean, right, I think this is about living the abundant life that Jesus promises us. Like I, you know, I think I think about there's a young woman in our congregation, uh, she's a teacher, and just thinking about the way that she shows up in her public school education, you know, as a public school educator in a way that brings good to her class, that encourages, like loves, uh, that makes really makes the world a better place and which is so cliche. But I actually think how exciting, how exciting that that we get as Christfallers to impact the world today and that the Christian life isn't a it isn't, it's like the most boring part of it, maybe is about forgiveness of like what in the world? Like there's so much life to be had and so much good work to be done, not in like a difficult, hard way, but in a way um that allows the people around us and ourselves to flourish. And so um I hope that as people continue to grow, that they see that vision um for for where God has for them, what God has for them.

SPEAKER_00 40:23

Well, um, you mentioned something just a few minutes ago about um uh sort of uh what you fill your mind with. And I I want to talk a bit about this a little more conceptual, but um uh interested in is sort of a subset of spiritual formation is intellectual formation, sort of the formation of the mind.

SPEAKER_03 40:38

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 40:39

And I wonder when when I say that, the formation of the mind, like like what what comes to mind? Like what do you think being formed in Christ-likeness in your mind is? And I and just to sort of uh set the table, I think two things that come to mind obviously for me. One is like a certain set of truth or information, I guess, um uh that could be part of the answer. Another would be sort of like virtues like humility and curiosity that would sort of no matter what type of information or knowledge you're looking at, would sort of just be like Christ-like ways of approaching. So anyway, those are two things. Great. Um, but I wonder what comes to mind for you when you think of a mind in in the likeness of Christ.

SPEAKER_01 41:22

Yeah, you know, it's funny because um I grew up in a denomination that uh really is kind of known for being anti-intellectual, but in my local community was very intellectual. So I remember um when I became a Christian, you know, these lay leaders would teach our youth groups, these like really come like really fantastic, like theological, um, you know, just uh on different topics and and helping us to understand um kind of the nuances of uh different, different views on different things. So I think about when I think about the mind, I think um, like you said, truth, like being filled with um with with the knowledge um that we have in the Bible, that um right being able to be good students of the word and um understanding um the Bible's not written, you know, to us but for us. So what does that mean? And being able to handle, handle scripture and to handle different um philosophical views, whatever, um, with maturity and with, like you said, integrity and curiosity and openness and also firmness of mind. Right. So um, yeah, and it's interesting because you even you talking about humility, different things. I it's funny because I think for me, I think those maybe being issues of the heart. And so um, so I think for me when I think about the mind, I think about information, um, but not just information, but um information uh connected in community. So I think of conversations, I think of being learning how to have conversations about things that are hard, um, being uh willing to um to rethink again, right? To have these these open minds where we're able um to hear what other people are think about different things and being disharpened, sharpened in in in the way that we're thinking. So um so for us, it looks like, you know, as we're as as we're creating courses and and Bible study, right? So it's it's being together in community, uh, to be able to to learn from an expert, but also to learn from each other. And I think um it's not right, it's not just the information, but it's how we process that information together in community.

SPEAKER_00 43:39

Right. Yeah, yeah, community is such an important part. Um we said that here at Overhouse too, that's sort of why we exist. But um, I think there's uh there's often a model out there of like how education happens that's very much like um individualistic.

SPEAKER_03 43:54

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 43:54

Um also in in an internet age, it's also like not even about a mentor or a teacher, it's just like I am adopting, you know, it's or grabbing information from the internet and then I am suddenly knowledgeable about a certain thing. So um I think the community part, uh I think that's also where um like some of the the skills that I'm you know, humility or curiosity or even like basic, I I would be so bold as to say like part of being formed in the likeness of Christ is like learning how to listen first before speaking. Um you know, things like that. Those are only going to be learned in a in a social setting. Like you can't learn those if you're just sitting at home reading a book. Um as much as reading books is awesome.

SPEAKER_03 44:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:35

Um so yeah, anyway, the community part really, really hits for me too. That that's education doesn't really happen in the full full sense of the word unless you're in community.

SPEAKER_01 44:43

Because I think we're communal beings, right? I think there are actually our whole lives are lived in community, whether it be community with God or community with others, right? And so, you know, I think that there are people that we probably all know who are very smart people, um, right. And they have been formed in a certain way with some information, but but they're not fun to be around, right? They're not, they're they're actually they're smart people who are kind of dumb. Like not in not in a not in a mean way, but just um information doesn't trans, doesn't necessarily transform us. Um, and so um, so I think, you know, my undergrad was in education, middle school math education. So um, I have a philosophy of education, right, where it's where knowledge is just one piece of education, right? It's um uh there's so much, so much more involved. Our feelings are involved in education, our desire and our will is involved in education. Um, and so because I think we're whole beings. And so I think you know, the intellectual part is a huge part of who we are and important. Um, but sometimes I think it's hard to divide out where the intellectual ends, the life of the mind ends and something else begins.

SPEAKER_00 45:54

Yeah, well, let's go there. Um I want to ask about um do you have a a theology of of education or a philosophy of education in this broader um spiritual formation uh context? Like is there a way you're thinking about it as a pastor?

SPEAKER_01 46:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:09

Um that that you're hoping the people in your church sort of follow?

SPEAKER_01 46:14

Yeah. So I think that in the spiritual formation world, we call that the theory of change. And so a lot of pastors have, you know, maybe have thought about that. What's what's their theory of change? How do people grow? How do people change? How people transform? And I think this is um, and this alone is probably why I'm in this field, um, because I think that question has excites me. Like I am, I've always been curious about that. How do I change? How do I grow? How do other people change? How do other people grow? Um and I think it, but it's also haunted me, right? And so when I think about different people in my life personally that I've loved and that have that maybe I've been disappointed in their lack of change or lack of growth, or you think about some of these big public leaders, these public moral failures, and you know, you begin, it's not just about the behavior or the failure. You begin, some of us begin to ask the question, okay, so if the Holy Spirit is real in our lives, and if our the life, the, the, the tell us, the end goal is for us to become more and more like Christ, like what if it if change doesn't happen? What does that mean? Does it mean that we're not walking with God how we thought we were? Is does it mean that the Holy Spirit doesn't exist, that this thing is all right? Like you can go dark on this, but so I think that's in some ways where it's haunted me. And but um, but I think this question is one that many of us ask at one point or another, whether it be about our own lives or about the organizations or communities that we're in. But um, but I think for me, it's kind of maybe in the spiritual formation world, there's kind of three big parts. Um, so there's the um, so there is the life of the mind, the teaching, um, what what books are we consuming, what information, um, what you know, scripture podcasts we're listening to, teachers that we're sitting under, um, that really shapes and forms us. I mean, you can look at any any area of study and you realize that who you're studying under or what you're studying really shapes who you're becoming. Um, then there's this other part, maybe that I talk about, I don't know what it's how I would say it, maybe just um the idea of practices. So these there's these things traditionally, prayer, um, fasting, solitude, silence. There's so so many, but basically it's the idea of um how are we embodying the things that we're learning, how are we connecting with God um in kind of an interpersonal way. And so I think that's another big piece. And then the third is relationships. And so this can include the people that we're with, um, like our family, family of origin, um, all these things kind of shape our our inner beings as well. And so um I think inviting we as Christians have the opportunity to invite the Holy Spirit, who is the great transformer, into all of those areas of our lives. Um, and I think God works in those areas uh and we partner with him in that, but he really does the heavy lifting of that formation. Um and um it's through those avenues that that we're changed and transformed, educated, if you will. But but I also think it's super mysterious. Like there's so many, depending on who you read, they'll they'll give you different answers. But I because I do think there's a mystery to it. And um, but at least we can point to those factors.

SPEAKER_00 49:28

And I think each of those, so sort of the the mind, the practices, the relationships, there'd be like different bodies of knowledge, like like sociologists versus philosophers versus those who would sort of emphasize different one of those based on sort of what what the lens you're looking through. So um uh it's just interesting to think about like those categories break down in some of the ways we talk about um the rest of the world too, not just spiritual formation. Um and I think of even and and they obviously they all connect, right? And that that's probably the power of of that. I think of uh, you know, one thinker that's been influential for me in thinking about this is um is Jamie Smith, who who who sort of you are what you love is is his thing. And he talks about you know everyday liturgies, things that we do, basically habits, yeah, but use it calling them liturgies sort of makes you think about them a little harder. Like, oh, that that's more of a like I'm putting more um value in something if it's a liturgy. Yeah. And and how so much of a Christian's life isn't thinking great thoughts about the Trinity or something like that, but it is what are the things you're doing every day? Yeah. Who are you spending your time uh worshiping in sort of a general sense? Who are you learning from?

SPEAKER_03 50:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:34

Um and and these come down to like habits, like like just the the unthinking things you do every day. So suddenly you're in a world that's much less about um the conscious mind and much more about sort of how your body uh functions. But of course, you can't separate those things either.

SPEAKER_01 50:49

And I it is an interesting thing because I do think our affections and our desires drive so much of our lives. It actually, I think, drives what we give our minds to as well. So I think I think they go back and forth. I think some people would say your desires affect, you know, one thing or your mind affects another. I think it's it does seem like it's all interconnected in a mysterious way, but um, but sometimes those, like you said, those liturgies we give we pay no attention to. And it's in fact those things that are shaping us uh more than anything else.

SPEAKER_00 51:18

Right. And uh one of Jamie Smith's famous ones is is like looking at a football game and comparing it to a worship service and how like you do a lot of the same things. Um, you stand up, you cheer, you all focus in on sort of the action, and uh you're in a community, um, you get these like highs, the emotional highs, um, all that kind of stuff. And yet we treat one of those as sort of a throwaway entertainment thing, and another one is like a very serious encounter with God. And I I think one of the interesting things that this whole sort of conversation moves to is understanding that both of those have the potential to form you as profoundly.

SPEAKER_03 51:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:55

Um, they might not, I mean, it it it depends, but um, that sort of reorients a lot of of how you think about what does it mean to to live like Christ, right? There's not like these parts of life where you can just sort of check out and say, well, that's just entertainment. Um, it's not really affecting me or something like that. It it's a sense that like everything we do um is going to sort of be coming into the system and affecting who we are and um and and work on us in that sort of that that question, the core question of like what does it mean to change or how how do people change? I think a lot of how people change isn't actually um uh well, it's not necessarily good um how you change. And a lot of it is like these things that aren't the conscious things that that um we decide we are now changing. It's more acted on us.

SPEAKER_01 52:39

So I think the right the challenge in then is to bring those unconscious things to the conscious level. And it takes a lot of energy and it takes a lot of time and a lot of intention, and we're human beings who get tired. And so I think that's kind of the the challenge of maybe being a human being and trying to change. But I think in all those things, right? It's like what is the end goal? Like who for for a person who doesn't um maybe doesn't have religious beliefs and they are totally great with becoming a fantastic Packers fan, right? Like that, and it's not a bad, it's like a good right, it's a part of their community and it's a part of their identity. And um, so I think as maybe um as Christ followers, it's you know, where where is our eyes looking? Like where are we wanting and is every, you know, where are we wanting to go? And is everything in our lives moving us towards that or moving us away from that? And I think that is the big question.

SPEAKER_00 53:26

Is there anything specific about Madison, which is a pretty unique uh well, it's not that unique, but it's a it's a city, it has a certain culture, big university in town. Um, does that context uh at all shape sort of how you think about spiritual formation and education?

SPEAKER_01 53:43

Yeah, I think that this is uh a city who who values education. Um we are a city who is, I think I've read is one of the most educated cities in America, right? There's a significant portion of us who have master's degrees or above.

SPEAKER_00 54:00

I think it's per capita we're one of the highest in the Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01 54:03

So we value the mind, we value education. And so I think because that's who we are, then we then we go towards that, right? So we providing these opportunities for growth, these seminars with expert leaders, with with expert thinkers, um, having good conversations, dialogues around important topics, I think um, I think that's an that's an easy way to go. I think I think some of the harder parts to get at are some of those maybe um maybe rhythms, you know, and kind of people's everyday lives. If they believe that that what they think is is what they become, uh, that can be tricky because that that is a part of it, but it's not the whole. So being able helping people to see that there's more to themselves than kind of being a brain on a stick. Um, and I think we know that intellectually as a community, but sometimes what we know and what we live um are different.

SPEAKER_00 54:58

Right, right. In in in the ecosystem of of the Christian world, of Christian education, uh churches obviously play a really central role. Most Christians um somehow encounter a church more often than they would maybe a Christian college or a K through 12 school or campus ministry. Um how do you see uh I guess there's two ways to ask the question. One, how do you see the church in relation to those? Um another way to ask it would be what are you hoping those parts of the ecosystem do to set people up well to be in a church and be formed properly? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:34

Yeah, that's a great question. Um, you know, I do think that there's a lot of things that pastors are trying to do in a church. And so depending on your size, you have more or less bandwidth for different things. And so I think one of the greatest gifts that we have as pastors to a congregation is to walk alongside people as they're walking with God in their everyday lives. And so, you know, I think it's great when we have the opportunity to do things like Sunday school classes or seminars or these courses. And that's very important. And that is our responsibility, I think, as a as a local church to be um to say who who has God given us as a part of this local body and what do they need to grow? And I think we are, we are primarily responsible for for them. Um, and so I do think that that is a big part, but I think about um, but I think about all these other entities, right? Because education is one part, but like sometimes, man, my week is walking with people who are grieving the loss of somebody, walking alongside a woman who is being physically abused, right? And how am I, how am I helping her to get the resources she needs in order to walk with that? It's um people who are kind of just feeling unmotivated, stuck, dealing with mental health kind of um challenges. And so that takes up a lot of life as a as a church, as a pastor. And so what I really value about all of these other entities is that they can focus on something that maybe we can't always give all of our attention to. And so maybe when we're weak in some areas uh that they can come in strong and provide some of the most up-to-date research, you know, like um biblical scholars at these universities, you know, can in these seminaries can can stay abreast of all of those things and and can and can help can help us as pastors to to educate our our people, but um also can be contributing to this greater this greater knowledge of um uh of different, you know, kind of the variety of things. And so um so I think that the church is particular, but I think we have a mission, uh, a particular mission to caring for our people and to to be on mission in a very particular way, in a particular place. And um and and so sometimes um things like you know, theology one on one might not make it to the top of our priority list, but we are glad that there are other people um who do have that at the top of their priority list that we can point people to and and draw on that wisdom.

SPEAKER_00 58:08

Yeah, and your your mention of the the seminary scholars, um just prompted me to wonder, do do you think of uh education differently when you're thinking about pastors themselves? So is there sort of a different regimen or a different sense of of um of education for pastors as opposed to for sort of the rest of us, the lay people?

SPEAKER_01 58:28

That's a good question. Maybe in theory, I wish that I didn't, but perhaps I do. Um, you know, as I think about uh the the responsibilities of a pastor and maybe the high bar of um of having this knowledge and being having the responsibility of wielding it well. Um, I think that I've very like I think that pastors should be educated. I think that they should um on a lot of different things, right, being able to to wisely step into the lives of of people who aren't thinking about this all the time, who may not be super interested in learning about the Trinity or learning about uh, you know, the it's like they don't care, but but how can but how can we as pastors help them to see where that intersects with their daily lives? And so so I get excited when I when there are lay people who who want kind of the quality of a seminary education and um through the local church. And I and I find those people as as intellectual peers and as and and so I I welcome that, but but I do think that everybody doesn't have to be that way. Like that's not everybody's gifts or that's not everybody's focus, and they're they're focusing on other things in the world that I have no idea about, that I have no education in, and I'm guessing that they wouldn't hold me to that same bar um that they have. But but I do think um for pastors, I I I think that uh we have big responsibility and we need to be um wielding that responsibility well.

SPEAKER_00 59:58

Yeah. Well, we'll end on this. I wanted to know um, you know, what is one of the things in the spiritual formation world that's sort of most on your mind these days? Sort of what's what's the what's the uh issue or the most um pressing problem um that you're confronting in your work?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:20

Yeah, oh there are there's several. But maybe one I would say that I've been thinking about recently, and I think it's important. I don't have a lot of answers for you, Deanna, on this, but um, but it's the kind of the the intersection of spiritual formation and technology. I think that's super interesting. I think that depending who you talk to, there's many people who are in my world who would say tech technology in the way, when they say technology, they mean smartphones, social media, right, internet, digital, digital, digital technology is what they would mean by that. It's kind of right, it's the great enemy of formation. Um, so you see many people in my in my world who get rid of cell phone, right, like smartphones, but they take the TVs out of their house, which is like great, like great. Like I would say that's totally an option. But also I think that in order to, but I don't know if that's the only option, right? So how are we formed? How do those technologies form us our spiritually? Um as as the church, how are we helping asking good questions to help um our congregation think about those things? Um, but also maybe even a more interesting one that that maybe is coming down the pipe pretty fast is AI, right? So, like what does it mean to be human and how are these various um kind of modes of artificial intelligence gonna form us spiritually? I think that that's a fascinating question. Um, maybe a little bit scary, but mostly fascinating because I don't think we have to be afraid. But um, but I do think that that's yeah, something I find interesting.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:52

And have you come across the uh AI sermon generator? Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:56

Yes. And so we were we've uh I I I uh sit on the teaching team, and so we've been playing around with it of like, okay, write a sermon about such. And actually it's like not bad, but um but it's not good either. So it's actually it's a good like starting point of some basic things, and then what we realize, oh, there's not a lot of emotion or uh so right, sort of middle of the road.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:22

Yeah, middle of the road.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:23

I guess that's um I'm sure some busy, tired pastors are using it. I'm sure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:29

Um yeah, that that's a really interesting um I think we've run into the question of technology uh in a few different conversations in this series related to education because it's so important to how education is being conducted now. There's you know digital options for all types of education. There's the same questions about smartphones and other things, and how does that shape attention span and and learning styles? Um and I I think we're seeing it the the same the same thing play out in the church, maybe in a slightly different way. Um uh and and I think of yeah, I mean, a lot of people we've talked to have been in higher ed, so there's a particular way this is landing on college-age students, you know, today. Yeah. Well, thank you, uh Tiffany. Uh thanks for talking to us about spiritual formation. Um I love talking about the conceptual and getting some practical as well. So thanks for your time.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:17

Yeah, thanks so much.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:19

Thanks for joining us. If you've enjoyed today's podcast, be sure to subscribe and give us a rating on your favorite podcast app. Also, be sure to check out our upcoming events on upperhouse.org and our other podcast, Upwards, where we dig deeper into the topics our in-house guests are passionate about. With Faith in Mind is supported by the Stephen and Laurel Brown Foundation. It is produced at Upper House in Madison, Wisconsin, hosted by Dan Hummel and John Terrell. Our executive producer and editor is Jesse Koopman. Please follow us on social media with the handle at Upper House UW.