Survey of the Christian Higher Education Landscape: What Are the Options?

Eugene Habecker, President Emeritus of Taylor University and chairman of Christianity Today, sits down with John Terrill to talk about today's many facets of Christian higher education. 

Learn about Eugene Habecker & Taylor University

Read Eugene's book: The Softer Side of Leadership: Essential Soft Skills That Transform Leaders and the People They Lead.

With Faith in Mind is produced at Upper House in Madison, Wisconsin and hosted by Director of University Engagement Dan Hummel and Executive Director John Terrill. Jesse Koopman is the Executive Producer. Upper House is an initiative of the Stephen & Laurel Brown Foundation.

Please reach out to us with comments or questions at podcast@slbrownfoundation.org. We'd love to hear from you. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:04

Welcome to the With Faith in Mind podcast. I'm John Terrell, today's host, and I also serve as the Executive Director of Upper House. Today we explore the topic of Christian education, and we're going to take a look at Christian education from a bird's eye view. And we have someone who will be terrific to help us understand the broad sweep of Christian education and some of the changes that are taking place. It's part of a series that we're featuring on Christian Education at the Crossroads. In this episode, we welcome to the show Dr. Eugene Habecker. Gene, welcome to the Faith in Mind Podcast.

SPEAKER_01 0:44

Thanks, John. It's a joy to be here with you.

SPEAKER_02 0:47

Well, it is great to have you with us. Thank you for carving out time today. Let me tell our listeners a little bit about Dr. Habecker. He served as president of Taylor University from 2005 to 2016. Prior to Taylor, Gene served in presidencies at the American Bible Society and Huntington University. He's a graduate from Taylor University. He has a master's degree from Wall State University and a PhD from the University of Michigan. He's also a graduate of Temple University School of Law and the Institutional Educational Management Program at Harvard University. He's an author, a number of books, uh, lots of articles. He's edited a number of books, but I have in front of me a terrific book that maybe might be his last book. I don't know if you've written one since. Um this is the softer side of leadership. And um That is the last book. That's the last book. This is uh maybe five years old, um, but a terrific book on leadership. And we'll put all the details about this book uh in the show notes. Um, but I really uh would recommend it to our listeners. Um a fun fact about Gene, uh, and maybe this number has gone up, uh he's traveled to uh traveled in more than 90 countries. Um and that that bio is over a hundred now. Over a hundred. So it's over a hundred. That's amazing. Um we'll have to start asking you what countries haven't you uh traveled to?

SPEAKER_01 2:16

About 50. Okay. No, there's a lot, there's a lot more. A lot more to see.

SPEAKER_02 2:21

Watching the Olympic processional is a different kind of experience for you than for most of us. Uh well, that's great. Um, we could have a whole podcast on that. Uh uh Jean is married to Mary Lou, and we could have had Mary Lou on the show. In fact, this morning I was thinking, boy, I should have invited Mary Lou to join us. She's she's an amazing woman uh in her own right, um, and has um led right alongside Gene in higher education and and uh at the American Bible Society as well. Um they have uh together three children and um seven grandchildren, and they make their home in Florida part of the year, and then cold water, Michigan part of the year.

SPEAKER_01 3:03

That's correct. Uh right now we're enjoying Florida.

SPEAKER_02 3:06

Right now, uh enjoying Florida. So um, I don't know. We've got a warm day here in Madison, Wisconsin, so I'm not I'm not feeling as uh um as internally uh conflicted as I might be otherwise, Gene. Well, good. Well we're gonna have a fun conversation today. Um but Gene, you know, you've had so many different roles um and you've been in this work for a long time. Um but I want to ask you how how did your calling to Christian education begin?

SPEAKER_01 3:40

I I started as an undergraduate student at Taylor University, and it actually absolutely transformed my life, but it was also foundational. And I would say up until that point, I probably hadn't given a lot of thought uh to Christian education or Christian higher education in particular. Uh, I I selected Taylor for a very simple reason. It was one that my parents had heard about and one that they felt comfortable for me to attend. And so I didn't look at 20 other schools or 10 other schools uh where I was in my own faith journey at that particular point. My faith was still pretty much in my head, not in my heart.

SPEAKER_04 4:26

Right.

SPEAKER_01 4:26

And I knew that if I had gone to another type of university, it might not be in my best interest. And so uh God uses a lot of ways to direct uh people to the places where he uh wants them to be, and that was enough to get me to Taylor. And then when I got there, obviously, as I said, it was foundational and transformational in my own life, and I've been a fan of it ever since.

SPEAKER_02 4:50

So, how does a kid from eastern Pennsylvania? Were you were you you grew up in Eastern Pennsylvania?

SPEAKER_01 4:55

Hershey, Pennsylvania was my hometown.

SPEAKER_02 4:56

Yeah, so how do you how does a how does a kid from Hershey, Pennsylvania get to um I grew up uh you know an hour north of um Taylor. Um and it is it is um kind of the cornfields of Indiana. Um how do you I mean clearly there's a great reputation there, but how did your how did your family have um a connection to Taylor?

SPEAKER_01 5:20

Actually, it was through athletics. Um in our Sunday school at our church, uh we used to get a scripture press magazine, a little paper called Power for Living. Uh and it was we got it every every week we were at church and it told stories. And this focused on uh a couple of coaches at Taylor University at that point, by the name of Don Odal and Bob Davenport. Uh, one was the basketball coach, the other was the football coach, and their stories were featured in Power for Living. And that's how my parents first heard about the university. And then, of course, they were talking with a really close family friend whose son had just transferred to Taylor University and was having a good experience. And that, all right, that's good enough. That's good enough. Uh, that's good enough for them. And so they were open to my pursuing it. At that point, there were not a lot of what I would call really solid Christian higher education options. Uh, a lot of the schools were young or struggling, trying to find their way forward. Christian higher education, I think, left uh a lot of room to be desired in terms of its own growth and development. Uh, my folks were familiar with the Bible college movement. Uh, in eastern Pennsylvania, there was something known as Philadelphia College of the Bible, and my uncle was a professor at Moody Bible Institute in Chicago. So I think my parents were more familiar with that part of Christian higher ed than the whole Christian liberal arts movement. Neither my mother nor my father uh attended college of any type. And my father, in fact, never never even completed high school. So I was kind of a first-generation newbie, didn't know a whole lot about, uh, but the Lord uh superintended and guided and uh ended up at Taylor, and it was a gift.

SPEAKER_02 7:15

Yeah, the sports, uh a lot of things that are part of your response there, but um the reach of Christian colleges and universities with athletics is significant. I as a kid, I was um, you know, uh I attended Taylor basketball camp. Um and and and that had uh quite a regional draw, and maybe even beyond regional draw. Um and so that's been there for over fifty years, yeah. Yeah, and I won't forget that experience. So so a big uh uh that that helps to put the pieces together that makes a lot of sense and and why you would find yourself um drawn to Taylor. Um I I want to um give our listeners a sense of the diverse experiences you've had leading uh Christian institutions. And I want to do a little bit of free association here. Uh-huh. Um, because I think it will open up a window to the breadth of um Christian education institutions and the ways that they serve. And I'm gonna list um I probably I don't know if I'm touching on everything, but the Christian colleges and Christian nonprofits uh that you've served, and I just want you to to quickly name a couple of strengths, a strength or two from each of these uh institutions. Um and I I know some of these you served a number of years ago, but as you think back at your time there or just think about the distinctives of these institutions, I would love for um for our listeners to have a chance to to hear you reflect uh over several decades, um, I think five decades of service looking back at these these institutions. So let me start uh chronologically, Huntington University, which is also in Indiana.

SPEAKER_01 8:59

Yeah, it was a uh United Brethren institution, a strong church tie, uh denominationally affiliated. And uh I learned a little bit there, uh I mean, I learned a lot of things there. I was uh served as president there for 10 years and two years as executive vice president prior to that. And I I learned about there the strong connection uh that higher education, Christian higher education in particular, ought to have to the church. Uh that was uh that was new to me, and it was a very vibrant and very strong connection uh and and very helpful. Uh the the mystery to me is why the church, by and large, doesn't support Christian higher education uh more strongly. Uh certainly that denomination could have and should have supported it uh more strongly in terms of its financial uh involvement. Uh it did a good job of sending students our way, which uh certainly was helpful. Uh but that that's kind of where I cut my teeth uh in presidential leadership, something I then had the joy of uh experiencing for 35 consecutive years, uh, where I had the joy of serving in president CEO roles.

SPEAKER_02 10:16

Yeah. And I realized I don't have these. I don't have these in chronological order, but that's really really helpful. And the the strong denominational tie or the denominational tie and some of the challenges around the strengths and weaknesses of that tie and where it was being well leveraged and not as well leveraged is insightful. Um, George Fox University.

SPEAKER_01 10:38

That was a fringe university, really a strong uh Anabaptist, uh very strong in the peace movement. Uh Herbert Hoover, a former U.S. president, uh, was known to have attended the academy, which was a precursor to uh George Fox University. That was my first C-suite type uh uh of appointment. I was uh uh Dean of Students there uh for four years and was assistant professor in the uh classroom in the political science department. Uh that's where I learned, among other things, I was I was 28 when I was named Dean of Students there. Uh didn't know what I was doing, but fortunately I knew enough about what I was doing to uh qualify uh for the job. But that one of the things of the George Fox experience was the way more senior leaders invested in me as a young leader, and the way that helped grow me and shape me and form me, that would impact me uh for the rest of my life. I still know those names, uh, still remember the conversations and uh several of them I refer to in the book.

SPEAKER_02 11:46

Yeah, well. Eastern University, this may have been your first assignment. Is that correct?

SPEAKER_01 11:52

That was my first job out of grad school. Okay. Uh I was I had been offered a position at Wheaton uh college as associate dean and a position at Eastern uh as assistant dean. And all my friends said you've got to go to Wheat, uh have to go to Wheaton because that's that's the name. Uh but I was I was on a break from my law school uh uh education at that point from Indiana University, Bloomington, which is where I had started my first year of law school. And I I was taking some courses in the higher ed department at Indiana University at that point, uh preparing to go to Eastern. And I said, well, before I made the decision to go to Eastern, I said, if you were, if you had to select the kind of school that ought to be your first job, what would you recommend? He'd say, he said, I would recommend a young, struggling liberal arts college, they're still trying to figure out everything, or a community college. He said, You're gonna have the opportunity to get involved in almost everything, whereas in a more stable, more mature institution, which Wheaton certainly was at that point, uh, you're gonna get stuck on a shelf and most likely have a narrow, a narrower range of responsibilities. That was a pretty prophetic statement. You know, Wheaton wanted me to be in that role 11 months of the year. I didn't uh have the opportunity to, you know, would not have the opportunity to continue my legal education if I had made the Wheaton choice. Uh, and so we made the decision to say no to Wheaton and go to Eastern, where I could finish my law degree while I was there at Temple University. And while I was there in four years, I was assistant dean of students, director financial aid, cross-country coach, assistant uh athletic director, and an instructor in phys ed. I mean, as well as my wife and I were both RDs, hall directors. So the professor was right. And I think it jumpstarted my career, gave me a lot of early experiences. It was a Baptist university, so uh an American Baptist uh university, so I had the chance to get that kind of you know uh denominational experience, which I could then later juxtaposition, you know, with the friends position at George Fox, etc. So Eastern, again, our two sons were born there. Uh Mary Lou was a school teacher in the Battle Kinwood uh school district, which was a really superb one. It was part of a great church called the Church of the Savior. It was really formative in many ways in helping us uh get our uh family started and a career started, uh, not knowing at that point where where God was going to take us or what we would be doing.

SPEAKER_02 14:40

Yeah, and we're we're uh it's just fascinating in your kind of the stops you've had along the way. Um it's interesting. I didn't know you started at Indiana University because the law school, uh I was a member of the Phi Gamma Delta fraternity, which literally um the law school library stared down our parking lot and practically in our windows. Oh, yeah, of course. Yes. So who knows? Uh who knew? Um Well, you were uh you were there just a couple of years ahead of ahead of me. Um but um a couple of years okay. Let's let's move to Taylor University.

SPEAKER_01 15:22

Taylor University, uh I'm juxtapositioning when I went there as a student as compared to when Mary Lulai returned as a uh in the presidency. Right. Uh a much more mature uh institution, non-denominational. Uh of course, the American Bible Society prepared uh us for that because at ABS we worked with the Roman Catholic Church, uh the multiple iterations of the Orthodox Church, the historic mainline Protestant, and the evangelical churches. So that was a very broad, a much broader uh focus in terms of Christendom than any of the Christian liberal arts colleges I serve. But again, Taylor was non-denominational, which was not a problem, uh, because uh again, working at ABS with all those Christian traditions, uh I was prepared and felt comfortable uh in that environment.

SPEAKER_00 16:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:20

And Taylor was was was a worthy capstone, I think, to all of our uh other administrative leadership roles uh because the great joy is our marriage coach would encourage us at Taylor to profess the presidency together. Husband and wife. And so Mary Lou and I had a blast. And in fact, I was talking with uh a colleague uh just recently uh uh you know from a major foundation on the West Coast, and she was saying, Man, your your name keeps coming up when I have these conversations, but she said Mary Lou's name keeps coming up more and because and that was a joy because we we did it together and and uh we hadn't we hadn't done that uh you know to the extent that we did it at Taylor. So Taylor was a fitting capstone uh for our time together, and of course, our mutual friend Michael English, or Michael making Michael Lindsay is doing a fabulous job there now in the president.

SPEAKER_02 17:19

Yeah, yeah. And and um I want to give you an opportunity to say anything additional you'd like to mention about the American Bible Society. I think sometimes people don't think about the American Bible Society as an as an uh an entity focused on education, but it really is focused on Christian education through Bible literacy, Bible literature.

SPEAKER_01 17:38

ABS is yeah, it ABS is an interesting is an interesting uh uh uh place. Uh it was what it was something I did not grow up as a kid knowing about or hearing about it. In fact, I was uh as a I was uh doing a stint as a visiting scholar at Regent College in Vancouver, British Columbia when I was called uh about the opportunity at ABS, and I was asked if I wanted to explore it further, and they said I said no. Uh I I I had my life all planned out. It was going to be a career in Christian higher education. But then I got this below the belt kind of question uh from the uh member of the search committee, uh, and it was kind of like, would you at least be willing to pray about it? And how do you say no to that if you are a person who follows uh Christ or we're called to be image bearers, you know, of God in our lives. And so the more we prayed about it, the more God used a variety of circumstances and situations to go into that into that very strategic mission and ministry in the heart of New York City. And again, I grew up on a farm. I was a farm kid, you know, and the schools that you've named are not except for Temple University, which is in north urban Philadelphia, the rest of those schools are not known for their commitment to, you know, for their engagement with the urban core, uh, you know, like New York City, they're one of the mega cities in the world. And so that in itself was an educational experience. And then ABS was connected with a hundred, we had offices and colleagues in a hundred and fifty plus countries around the world. And I got to be involved in leadership not only at ABS, but globally, chaired of you know, the the overall arching board uh of the United Bible societies, and and that's really where God gave me a whole different education, gave us a whole different education with regard to diversity and the beauty of his church and the world that that he created. And and as you as you stated, uh ABS has very always been involved in in education in some way, shape, or form, but whether it's literacy, major literacy program, whether it's putting a spoken language into a printed form in terms of Bible translation. Uh during the time we worked at ABS, uh, we selected the best uh Old Testament student of uh hundreds of schools around the United States and the best New Testament student uh seminaries and undergrad, and gave them a Nestle Alan New Testament, or we gave them a biblical hebraic of Sugartensia, which is a pretty massive, you know, uh Hebrew uh uh study, uh study book. I mean, so it's it's uh it's a uh ABS was involved that it introduced us to people groups and cultures and geographies that were substantially new to both uh Mary Lou and me. And again, it was not a it's it was an education that there's no degree after it, but it it would be one of the major learning experiences of my life. Had the opportunity, for example, to spend time with uh uh you know His Holiness Pope John Paul II. I spent uh good time with Alexi, uh, you know, the uh the primate, uh patriarch of the Russian Orthodox Church, once in New York and once at Moscow, and various other uh uh uh patriarchs of uh various uh Orthodox communions, Chanuta in in uh Cairo. And yeah, it was just it was a whole different a whole different experience from anything I had known uh in higher education.

SPEAKER_00 21:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:44

Well, let me uh let me I'd like to get your uh definition 15 seconds. Um how would you describe Christian education? What is Christian education?

SPEAKER_00 21:59

We're in

SPEAKER_01 22:00

Image bearers of God reflect in the development of their minds and hearts uh the attributes and the gifts that God has uh given to each of those individuals, but in a way to grow uh intellectually and socially and spiritually as well, grounded in God's word.

SPEAKER_02 22:24

Okay, that's that very helpful definition. Um reflecting back on your experiences, um what are some of the main ways um that you have s seen people um move into a deeper sense of of their image-bearing capacity? So what are what are the channels, the the delivery mechanisms? Uh and again, kind of a a brief response here that that you have come to understand as really important and essential for helping people develop as um as people made in the image of God.

SPEAKER_01 23:08

Well, let me mention two, uh particularly uh strong mentorship in terms of a faculty-student relationship, strong mentorship in a student-faculty relationship in the context, secondly, of a vibrant dynamic community. So it's it's the it's it's the mentorship of faculty and and with students in the context of a of a supportive community that shares similar values and committed to similar objectives.

SPEAKER_02 23:50

Great. Very helpful. So as an administrator, I'm going to press you here, and this is really around metrics or or impact. How do you know if your institution's being successful in your roles? Um how how did you discern, how did your teams discern if you were actually doing a good job of what you were setting out to do?

SPEAKER_01 24:12

Well, there are a couple of ways I can answer that. Uh, the first way I'm I'm gonna answer is is by uh referencing something that uh all higher education has to wrestle with, and that's the accreditation process. Uh basically, one of the things that accreditation does is to address the question: are you really doing in fact what you say you're doing? And so, for example, at the University of Wisconsin, that's accredited by the Higher Learning Commission based in Chicago. I served as a consultant evaluator for the Higher Learning Commission for 10 years. Uh, and that's one of the things that a team would do when it goes to visit a university in response to a self-study is to verify and validate that what you say you are doing is what you're actually doing. Now, that's interesting because the evaluators themselves are not necessarily people of faith. These are people who are colleagues who share commitments to quality and excellence in higher ed. And so those are the people that are looking through all of your documents. So, what basically, you know, what one of the things, just a quick little aside here, one of the things that I don't think we reference enough in the Christian community is the importance of doing good or doing good works. You know, Jesus said, uh, let your light shine before people, they may see your good works. You know, uh, and they'll that'll bring glory to your father. Or Paul in his writings to to the Galatian church said, as you therefore have opportunity, do good to everyone. You know, so doing good, especially, well, finish the verse, do good to everyone, especially those that are the household of faith. So the whole idea of doing good can be observable by people outside of the faith. And that's what the accreditation process is. So that that's the first thing. How would we know we're we're we're achieving what we're trying to achieve? And the accreditation process is one. The audit process, having a CPA, an outside each CPA firm, come in and evaluate you financially. Are you managing well? Are your business processes good? That's another way. But of course, the practical way that you you you you uh address that question is is look at the lives of your alumni, what are their commitments, what are they involved in, and then uh two other pieces of the practical uh uh mode uh way of checking is are are people enrolling you know uh in in significant numbers at your institution, then are people supporting it financially?

SPEAKER_00 27:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:04

I mean, that's one of the ways you you you can measure relevance to to to what you're doing, is is are are people coming, staying, and graduating from your institution, and is there financial support to help help pay the uh you know the cost of what it takes to offer Christian higher education?

unknown 27:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:22

So those are those are some of the things that I would so helpful. And I know you think a lot about this. What about you you mentioned uh dynamic community and the the mentoring relationship between students and faculty? What are ways that institutions can um ensure that that dynamics like that uh are in place and are effective? How did you do it? How did you measure the dynamic dynamism of your campus, and how did you measure um the strength and quality of mentoring relationships?

SPEAKER_01 27:57

Well, Taylor did it uh in among many ways, but one of the most unique ways was through its chapel experience. Taylor, unlike almost any other Christian institution, does not take attendance at chapel. It says to students, this is expected, but we're not gonna stand over you and have people take attendance or use credit, you know, little chapel cards or whatever through a you know scan or whatever. And in fact, I would tell parents if your son or daughter is not serious about growing in their Christian faith, this is probably the wrong institution for them. And the joy that we had is chapel at Taylor is packed three times a week. People are there because they want to be. So I think one of the things that that that was a big measurement for us was the chapel experience. We invested a lot into that experience, that gathering together as community to worship, to learn together. You think about the platform of, you know, what university brings, Christian or otherwise, brings together 1,500 plus students three times a week for a common shared learning experience.

SPEAKER_04 29:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:21

Um, you know, that most of the time included worship. I mean, that is a rare, a rare, uh, a rare experience, right? Where students choose to go there, not have to go, not gonna get in trouble if they don't, but choose to go because they want to be that kind of person. So that was a huge part of the Taylor community. Of course, that supplemented uh, you know, most of our Taylor students chose intentionally to live in residence halls for all four years or in some kind of residential experience. That was viewed as a another part of the learning environment. A lot of other colleges have picked up on that, and you know, big universities like University of Wisconsin, Michigan State. Michigan State pioneered, not pioneered, but was a leader in terms of staffing educationally, you know, the residence hall experience. Um, and I I think uh the namesakes on your uh foundation at Upper House, you know, were very much involved in that at Michigan State, if I remember my conversations correctly. And so a lot of universities do that. But when you have that educational mix both within the classroom and without the outside of the classroom, so that all of those units together, you know, you're seeking to mentor and develop young people, you know, uh, in in what does it mean to model and to mirror, it'd be a better word, to mirror the you know, God's image in everything that you do. That's a pretty powerful combination. And then you know, the the chapel experience kind of ties it all together. So whether it's the out on the athletic field, or whether it's in a residence hall, or whether it's in the whether it's in clubs, or whether it's in the classroom, or whether it's in chapel, there is a consistent message being shared, you know, about what it means uh to be a faithful image bearer and letting your life mirror the kinds of things that Jesus taught in the gospels, the kind of things we learn in the scripture. You know, at the same time, you're developing that mind and that whole cognitive side of you as well. That's a pretty powerful combination.

SPEAKER_02 31:27

Yeah, it really is. There's a a coherence uh and and and an attention to um the affections, the kind of thing. And integration. Yeah. And integration. Right, right, right. Um I there's so much I I could press into here. Um let me ask one more question about this experience of chapel, because I think that's interesting. And I know that's a really significant thing at Taylor. Is is is strong chapel attendance a leading indicator of uh spiritual well-being or a lagging indicator?

SPEAKER_01 32:01

I I'm I've been a leading indicator of the Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_02 32:05

Okay, and and and talk about why. And maybe our listeners aren't familiar with those terms, but um is i uh talk about how you understand. Because I again what's one of the things that's so interesting talking about you is your attention to um management discipline, um, but in a way that um is attentive to the soft side of leadership as well. And you know, it's the title of your book. And so you're not someone who just drives at metrics without thinking about um you know the softer dimensions of leadership and organizational health and so forth. But when you think about leading and lagging indicators as an administrator uh in institutions of higher Christian learning, how do you think about um those two ways to capture uh capture uh performance?

SPEAKER_00 32:53

All right, let me let me distinguish uh between uh transactional exchanges uh versus transformational changes.

SPEAKER_01 33:06

You can get a transaction a care a transactional uh experience in in higher education, even in Christian higher education, in many different formats. Um, you can go online, many different modalities. You you can go online, take whatever classes you're in and you're out. I have teaching programs, you know, you know, you don't have time to really develop the long and and and a lot of people choose to do that, which is okay. That's not that's not negative, but you that doesn't measure the kind of thing where I am really seeking, I'm really seeking to grow my Christ, my Christian faith in a devotional, intellectual, integrated, in a integrated way. When you're on a college campus where you have a thousand different opportunities to engage in something, you know, going to the union, going to you know, a club, playing in sports, when you deliberately and intentionally say, I I will I will choose to worship as a priority, and I will choose to do that of my own volition, right? It's not mandatory. You don't get in trouble. I think that that evokes a higher level of openness, I would say, to spiritual growth and spiritual learning. Uh that doesn't happen if I really don't want to be there and I'm only there because I have to be, and somebody's taking attendance.

SPEAKER_04 34:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:37

So so for me, it's it's probably the first thing I would point to, you know, in terms of what differentiates a place like Taylor from almost every other Christian uh college in the country. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:50

Gene, I'm gonna borrow some language from Peter Drucker. Um I know you're familiar with Peter Drucker. Um as a president of several um Christian colleges and uh major um Christian nonprofit organization, um who's your primary customer? Let's think of let's let me uh ask this in the context of Christian higher education. Um that'll uh make the the response, I think, a little cleaner.

SPEAKER_01 35:16

Um no question. The prime the the customer of the student and their families. That that is why we're there. In fact, when I when I went when I came to Taylor, I would say to our faculty, I love faculty, faculty are great for what we're trying to accomplish. We can't do without, you know, uh uh without the the multiple ways in which you invest in our in our community and in the lives of our students. But students and their fam, that that's what we're focused on. That's why we're here to serve and educate those students. If if if we make something else our priority, like the community, which is important, uh, you know, uh the geography where we live, what the board wants, what the staff wants, what the alumni are about, uh, what the church wants. Not that I'm all of these are important. Hear me on this. All of these, all of these are important uh uh uh priorities, but if we miss, if we if we if we don't communicate to students that you are you are why we're here and and to and their families, you know, don't get that. We're we're gonna miss the mark and and we're gonna lose the very battle we're trying to win.

SPEAKER_02 36:35

So uh yes, I absolutely I think I uh that makes a lot of sense. Um there are a lot of really important um additional stakeholders that have strong voice um and um and have competing interests in some ways, maybe they're complementary interests, but certainly some competing interests. What did you learn about managing um multiple stakeholders and in a college, Christian college setting, um, what groups constitute some of the really important secondary customers that you had to devote a lot of time paying attention to?

SPEAKER_01 37:12

Well, I've I've mentioned some of those uh just a minute ago. I I usually talked about seven or eight every every time I had a chance of competing people that want something different. I mean, students maybe one group. Students didn't always want what their parents wanted. Parents didn't always want what the alumni wanted, alumni didn't always want what the donors wanted. The donors didn't always want what the church wanted, the the church didn't always want what the faculty wanted, the faculty didn't always want what the staff wanted. Um, and then then of course you have the communities, the geographies where we where we live and work. They always want, they they don't always want what everyone else wants. And so I I think your your question is how do you balance uh how how do you balance, how do you pull all of those those different disp uh disparate groups uh together? Uh well Well, can you even balance?

SPEAKER_02 38:09

I guess part of my question, Gene, would be can you actually um accomplish the balancing act or or is uh a different is a uh is there a better metaphor of what you're actually doing uh in the Yeah, balance is probably not the right word.

SPEAKER_01 38:23

I I think I think there are a couple of approaches though I would I I would say we need to take in in in terms of that. And and one is we have to be crystal clear in our identity and who we are. We can't, uh a Christian college can't be all things to all people. Uh you know, you're gonna, you know, just like Jesus said, a house divided will not stand. You know, uh some people are gonna like it and the other are gonna be opposite. We have to be who we are, and we can't be embarrassed or apologetic for who we are. And and we it's it is what it is, you know, to use a cliche. I mean, it's uh and and let's let's promote that, but do it in a sense of not just who we are. No, do it with love and grace and and and and and charity. You know, again, this is where the image bearer of who God calls us to be, made in his image, you know, comes into play here. I mean, I I as a I don't have the I don't have the opportunity to to you know to say, well, because I'm a university president, I can ignore, you know, uh half of the teachings of of what I think Jesus is teaching. I I've got to practice those and regardless of the position that I hold and the role that I serve. And so even there, I mean, uh people catch that. And I I I Mary Lou would say, if she were uh on this with us, she would emphasize, and I I totally agree, is the importance of relationship development and listening. And interestingly, active listening is more than just waiting to get your chance to speak. You know, really, really we don't do a very good job in our culture and our communities of listening to one another. Uh, and and so I think I think those are the kinds of things, and so you know, when when you can't, I'm sorry the answer to that is no, and I know you're not gonna be happy with that, but this is the direction we're gonna go. Uh leadership is not about popularity. If if you if you you know, uh well, I want you to like me for my decision. We all will have the desire to be like, but but faithfulness is a better indicator. Faithfulness to the mission and to what uh I think we're called to do uh in those leadership roles that the Lord may entrust to us from time to time is really uh the bottom line. And and to be faithful to the mission, sometimes people are gonna be upset and people aren't gonna like, particularly in a pluralistic world, you know, where you know, certain positions that you end up uh taking. Uh again, modeling love and charity and gracefulness uh, you know, in in your positions, uh uh people may not necessarily like like that and may be angry about it. And and that's okay.

SPEAKER_02 41:21

Yeah. I want to come back to some leadership principles later in the interview as we as we start to get uh toward a close. Um I'd like to ask you to reflect on some of the external threats, uh environmental factors that you see swirling around Christian higher education these days. I'd love to get your take on from all your years of experience serving on boards, serving as pre president, senior administrative positions, uh what are the three or four um most important factors that um senior administrators and boards need to be paying attention to?

SPEAKER_00 42:03

Well, there are several that come to my mind. One is what I would call internal disintegration.

SPEAKER_01 42:12

Uh that is to say, where internally not not because of external pressures or whatever, you begin to lose uh uh the the the anchor points that have centered you for for many, many years. And you begin to cut cut the tether to your anchors. You know, um uh one of the uh one of the ways that is evidenced is uh I think Peter Greer is the one who wrote the book entitled Mission Drift. You know, mission drift happens. And when you when you that's not a that's that's an internal choice. That is a you know you look at a lot of higher education institutions, even places like Harvard or Columbia, which have scripture verses, even even the work that uh Dan Hummel's been doing at the University of Wisconsin on lifting out the history of the University of Wisconsin, you know, there's there's been drift, you know. So and and those are internal choices that people make and and how are we going to respond to the external realities uh that face us. So, you know, um uh so I I I think there there are multiple kinds of internal internal uh issues. You know, the issue of can we afford this? Can we can we afford Christian higher education? You know, the the dilemma between access versus choice. Maybe I don't have the choice to go anywhere I think I would like to go because I can't afford it. So I choose this option, and I'm a commuter student here. You know, uh you know, net tuition revenue is something every president uh talks about on a regular basis of a Christian higher education institution. You know, when you're spending more money on financial aid than You're bringing in through tuition, you're not going to have the resources to fund programs and pay faculty and staff and do the other things you want. Those are all internal decisions. Then there are the external ones. And when it comes to external, I see the word tsunami, you know, used a lot, the tsunami. And there most people are thinking of some of the huge cultural shifts that were not in play 50 years ago in Christian higher education when there was a different, you know, different mindset in the culture, be it the government, accrediting agencies, or all of the other uh multiple players. So I think those uh, you know, the internal threats, they're internal threats that I think we can do something about. Uh the external threats uh you know are threats that we have to be alert to. But even in the in the in the process, I think we we need to do what we need to do to be faithful to the mission that God has called us to. Uh uh, and and if if Christian higher education doesn't survive in its current format, I think there are a couple of other emerging options that I'm very bullish on and I'm very excited about as well. So we have to keep in mind that Christian higher education is basically a Western world idea. We see more Christian colleges in the United States and Canada than we see in any other part of the world. And in many parts of the world, it's nonexistent. I mean, you don't see very many Christian colleges in in the United Kingdom, uh, or in France or Germany or lots of other places. Just it's it's a it's it's it's unique to the US, the Western, the Western world. So that's why I think unless we think that the church is gonna go down the tubes if we don't have Christian higher education, it will not. Because you look around the rest of the world, and there is not that kind of Christian higher education mindset, you know, that is there to support the church. Uh so in in many ways, we ought to be way ahead of the pack, unfortunately, because of our Christian higher education focus. Unfortunately, we're in many ways we're not.

SPEAKER_02 46:22

Well, then that leads me into my next question. Um, and and that is, you know, you're someone who has benefited personally from private, non-religious, and public flagship universities. Um I'd love for you to reflect on what role these institutions have played in your life and what are a uh what are a couple of their unique advantages, even in advancing um dimensions of Christian education? And then I want to move into the consortium of Christian study centers and talk a little bit about that. But first, if you'd reflect on your experience in secular, non-religious institutions and the role they played. They clearly had a formative role in your life. And um I wonder what you see as some of the unique advantages that those institutions can offer and the organizations that support them.

SPEAKER_01 47:14

Well, thank you. I uh you're right. I have I've spent more years in non-Christian education settings as a student than I have spent in Christian uh education settings as a student. You know, a master's degree from Ball State, law degree from Temple University, a PhD from University of Michigan. I mean, all experiences that had profound impacts on me uh in multiple ways, and I think helped prepare uh me to serve our Lord better in whatever field it was going to lead. As I'm going through those experiences, I did not know what the end game was in terms of service and ministry andor vocational uh calling. Just didn't know. Uh, but I had a great experience at Fall State. I had a great experience at Temple. It introduced me to, you know, uh the more urban setting, a more urban environment. It was an urban north central uh Philadelphia setting for Temple. Uh, and then of course the University of Michigan. I I love that experience as well for my doctoral study. So yeah, I they they have they can they have they have they give us more in many ways, they give us more breadth and more depth than I can get at a Christian at a at a Christian university. There there might be some exceptions, but but I I I couldn't have gotten the quality of of PhD studies that I got at Michigan anywhere else. I mean, the program I was involved in is still ranked number one in the United States. Uh so it was ranked number one when I went there, which is why uh I went there. And and and you know, it's it's it's you know, I there are there are a few Christian law schools, not many. So if you if you really want to study in any of the professional areas, for the most part, you are not going to choose a Christian college because the options are so limited. If I want to study architecture, there are only two or three Christian colleges or universities that I'm aware of that that offer architecture. So I think the kind of universities you're re referring to, we're talking about, give us more breadth of opportunities and more depth. I can I can even if if a if a Christian college does offer a PhD in an area, most of them don't offer research opportunities like I would get at a big industry.

unknown 49:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:46

You know, or to to be uh you know, do a residency or go, you know, if you if you go into the sciences in terms of medicine, you're not gonna find very many Christian universities that offer you know the STEM medical uh uh strengths of a of a secular university. So so I I think in in so many ways we need we need to embrace the role that those kinds of universities play. Uh uh, even as we recognize, on the other hand, the strengths, particularly at the undergraduate level, uh that a Christian institution, if that's an available option, uh, can play in the life of a person as well.

SPEAKER_02 50:28

Yeah. And Jean, I I want to talk a little bit about the consortium of Christian Study Centers. You're a newer um convert to that movement. Um I I think maybe two or three, four years, I think. Um you're helping to start a study center at the University of Michigan. You also serve on the board of the Consortium of Christian Study Centers. Upper House is a member um institution of the Consortium of Christian Study Centers.

SPEAKER_01 50:54

So you're a great member of the CCSC.

SPEAKER_02 50:58

Uh so you know we have uh certainly inside knowledge about that, but I'd love to hear you reflect on why you're bullish about this movement, uh, particularly for someone who's spent so many years in Christian higher education. What do you see as the possibility of Christian study centers um taking root at large public, private, um, non-religious uh, but major universities across the country? What what advantages, what possibilities do the study centers present?

SPEAKER_01 51:31

Well, let me let me that's a complicated question. I may want to divide it into a couple of areas. You know, uh first of all, let me speak to what I see as uh the future of Christian higher education, particularly in the West. You know, given the tsunamis that we talked about, some of the internal dysfunction that we uh talked about as well. We don't know in 50 years, or you know, are we gonna have Christian colleges? We we really don't know. And if somebody, you know, uh we probably will, I hope we will, uh, but we don't know. So that is an option that I think will always be there. But I think there are two other options. One is a relatively new one that's developing, um, and it's basically referred to as the uh uh the church it's it's it's it's basically a movement of of you know, just as we had the movement in the in the country of going from home schools or homeschooling, which 20 years ago people would have kind of, are you kidding me? That that'll never work. We know that has worked and dramatically. There's another movement in in Christian higher education called the church college movement. And and it's led by uh an Indian intellectual by the name of Vizual Maguwadi, and a bunch of people, their goal is to have the capability of developing and and and providing some kind of the college experience in a million churches within two decades.

SPEAKER_00 53:05

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 53:07

Now think about that. And and and it it deals with the affordability issue, it deals with the disconnect between the church and Christian higher education, which in many cases, unless you're a denominational institution, there is that disconnect. There are not a whole lot of non-denominational churches that are supporting at a vibrant level. So I I think that that third revolution idea uh that Magawadi is is promoting. There's now a book available on Amazon that talks about it. Again, the the the church college model, and by extension, it builds on the homeschool uh uh idea, is a second option that I think we're gonna see grow in in various parts of the world, maybe not so quickly in the West, but in other parts of the world. I think it'll come. And then I think the third one is the is the one you raised with the consortium of Christian uh study centers. Now, here let me tell you, I am a recent convert uh to this. I mean, it it's it's been in the last few years, and I'm I'm saying, why have I not heard about this? This is such an exciting opportunity. Now, let me explain, let me explain this uh in a broader sense. If if you're a parent, if you're parents and you have kids, you probably, you know, uh COVID notwithstanding and the drop in uh in church attendance, notwithstanding as a result of COVID and a lot of other factors, you still are probably looking as parents for a church community to help you as parents to grow your children, you know, in their faith. It's not just something that you, your parents, as parents, are doing alone. You've got this larger church community. Okay, so those young people grow through high school. And high school, there are places like campus life and young life and and other groups. Uh there's Catholic, the Catholic Church has a variety of uh of areas for people in their faith. The Lutheran Church has a really good school system, you know. Um, and so you know, but you're always looking for partners. And then when you send uh, you know, your your young people are looking for uh for partners at the college level, uh uh you're you think about Christian colleges, but we talked about the breadth and depth of what another campus offers or the affordability issue, the Christian college simply may not be an option for you. In fact, there are more Christian young people that are going to non-Christian colleges every year than attend Christian college. You know, and so the question has to be raised is what are we doing as a church to help support these enterprises? And so I think I think a Christian study center at its best, and and and Rick Ostrander, uh uh who is the uh chair of our steering committee at the University of Michigan uh Christian uh study center basically says it's it's the best of what a Christian college has to offer in the context or in the middle of a large secular campus. Okay, we get that. Um the but but here is where I think the Christian uh study center movement goes beyond uh that because it it rather than then trying to build its own brand. You know, if you have a you know Inner Barcy does wonderful work, uh crew does wonderful work, there's other, you know, the Newman Centers do wonderful work. The Consortium for Christian Study Centers like to we'll work with all of that, those those groups. We'll we will bring you together. In fact, may open up our facilities, which is what you do at at Upper House, to all of these groups. And let's where can we get leverage? Where can we get synergy? I think that's unique. You know, some Christian study centers, their primary focus is on students and the student experience, uh, which it is primarily, I think, probably through some other Christian ministries. But the Christian Study Center goes beyond that. It goes to working with faculty and having faculty and their work with students. And it does, as you do at Upper House, have faith learning integration sessions where faculty, Christian faculty from the University of Wisconsin, or in our case, at Michigan, from the University of Michigan, will come and talk about the philosophical Christian dimensions for the young people on those campuses. And there you're talking about world-class scholars. You know, uh, we can learn from that, yeah, uh, that model. I think we learn uh more about pluralism uh in the uh Consortium for Christian Study Center uh uh type campus, where what's it like to function in a pluralistic world? For the most part, in many Christian uh higher education settings, yeah you're not in a you're not in a bubble, you know, per se, because you're not trapped and you're not, but you're in a community where you don't face the kinds of challenges. How do you do that? The Christian consortium of Christian Study Centers allows that uh to happen. But I think one of the other big big pluses of the consortium uh for Christian Study Center movements is that consortium study center centers position themselves as partners with the university rather than seeing the university as an adversary. Yeah, you know, uh that changes the mindset. And and and when we can, you know, early in our conversation, we talked about, I think one of the marks that Jesus gave us about what's going to bring people's attention to to what God is at work doing is doing good and doing good works. Yeah. You know, and I think sometimes because we've you know been so preoccupied, you know, with not wanting to make good works be our means to salvation, we ignore the fact that good works are the validation to the world of our salvation, and and we we we miss huge opportunities. And and what concern Christian study centers can help the university in its task. And and let's face it, universities are doing great work with their research in medicine and uh and a whole host of other uh you know, their work on the environment and and and so many other areas. And so uh a CSC, a Christian study center, doesn't position itself as an adversary, it positions itself as an ally. Yeah, and that's really what we need to be doing, you know, as we mirror uh, you know, the image of God in our lives, positioning ourselves. This is a world we didn't create, it's a world that God created, you know, with people having uh, you know, the Amago Deo. Each of us have within us the image of God. I mean, so I just think the the Christian study movement, it represents a fabulous opportunity to address a part of the church that's here, Christian young people in a secular university setting, uh, and their opportunity to grow and learn and have faith learning integration discussions with key faculty and staff and colleagues as they position themselves to be an ally. That to me is a win-win.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:33

And again, we don't have to we don't have to make it the enemy of Christian higher education. We need Christian higher education in the way in which I've benefited from it as a student, the way I've had the opportunity, Mary Little, I've had the opportunity to give back to it, you know, in a in a couple of university presidencies. But that's not enough if we if we hope to have a more global influence and and influence other areas uh reflecting the image of God in our lives, uh uh outside of the Christian higher education community. So so yeah, that's a long answer, and I apologize for the long answer, but I I think that's one of the happening places right now where the church needs to wake up and see uh how it can support better, not just Christian higher ed, but consortium uh uh CCSC Christian study centers. Because I I think they're good, they're gonna play an increasingly as the pressure comes on the outside, yeah, as that tsunami that we talked to, Christian study centers are gonna become more important to doing the work of the church than they've ever they've ever been. And so I I my my hope is that, you know, uh as as you know from uh our conversations, uh John, as I've talked about this with our executive director, my hope is that in all of the major thought centers of the United States that have flagship universities located within them, we will have Christian study centers active, involved, and engaged. We're not there yet. We only have maybe between 35 and 40. Uh we ought to have 100 or or more. Um and so uh working together uh collaboratively to achieve those broader goals.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:29

Well, you've given me three really good reasons uh to be hopeful for the future of Christian education and and done it um in in ways that are very clear. Gene, thank you very much for this conversation. I adding up the years uh on my own, but I think you've served probably 50 years um in higher education. Um at C.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:52

It's been a while. It's been a while, it's been a while. And and then the surprise was the American Bible study, which is a large nonprofit, you know, and that you know, we're used that to add some more arrows to the river, so to speak, in terms of the leadership side.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:06

The experiences are rich, and thank you for sharing them with us today. Uh we are so grateful.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:12

With great joy.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:13

And we appreciate your time. Uh again, we'll put um details about Gene's writing in the show notes uh uh and have his full bio there. And uh, we thank you for listening. Um Gene, thank you for your service in so many um sectors of the church. Uh, we really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:33

Thanks, John. Thank you for your friendship. I appreciate that. Blessings.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:39

Thanks for joining us. If you've enjoyed today's podcast, be sure to subscribe and give us a rating on your favorite podcast app. Also, be sure to check out our upcoming events on upperhouse.org and our other podcast upwards, where we dig deeper into the topics our in-house guests are passionate about. With Faith in Mind is supported by the Stephen and Laurel Brown Foundation. It is produced at Upper House in Madison, Wisconsin, hosted by Dan Hummel and John Terrell. Our executive producer and editor is Jesse Koopman. Please follow us on social media with the handle at Upper House UW.