The Focus of Seminaries: Charisma, Humanism & Theology

Garwood Anderson, Dean of Nashotah House, joins John Terrill to discuss the current state of seminaries and calls for refocusing on teaching theology. 

Learn about Garwood Anderson & Nashotah House

Check out Garwood Anderson's book: Paul's New Perspective.

With Faith in Mind is produced at Upper House in Madison, Wisconsin and hosted by Director of University Engagement Dan Hummel and Executive Director John Terrill. Jesse Koopman is the Executive Producer. Upper House is an initiative of the Stephen & Laurel Brown Foundation.

Please reach out to us with comments or questions at podcast@slbrownfoundation.org. We'd love to hear from you. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:05

Welcome to the With Faith in Mind podcast. I'm John Terrell, today's host, and I also serve as Executive Director of Upper House. Today we explore the topic of seminary education. It's part of our series on Christian education at the crossroads. In this episode, we welcome Dr. Garwood Anderson to the show. Gar, welcome to With Faith in Mind.

SPEAKER_00 0:28

Hey, it's great to be with you. Thanks for the invite.

SPEAKER_01 0:31

It is great to see you. Let me uh share with our guests a bit about uh Garwood Anderson. Um Gar serves as the Dean of Neshoda House and professor of New Testament. He's been a member of the faculty uh at Noshoda House since 2007 and Dean since 2017. Before coming to Noshoda House, Garwood was on the faculty of Asbury Theological Seminary. He has also taught as a visiting professor at Bethel Theological Seminary, Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, Reform Theological Seminary, and West African Theological Seminary in Lagos, Nigeria. Before his academic career, Dr. Anderson served for 17 years on the campus staff of Inniversity Christian Fellowship. He's married to Don. They have three adult children, two sons-in-laws, and a grandson. And I think most of your kids are pretty close by, aren't they?

SPEAKER_00 1:26

Not bad. One in Chicago and one in Dallas, maybe not permanently. Hopefully in the Midwest, sometime in the future. And then we have uh our grandson and their family. It's just down the road in uh Wabatosa, west of Milwaukee.

SPEAKER_01 1:42

Okay, so that Dallas one I didn't know about.

SPEAKER_00 1:44

Well, uh, you know, uh, that is a fun story because my daughter married one of our seminarians.

SPEAKER_01 1:51

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:52

And uh he was ordained a priest this fall and is serving in a curacy in the diocese of Dallas.

SPEAKER_01 1:58

So Okay, so this is this is new. Okay, very good.

SPEAKER_00 2:02

Well occupational hazard, that one.

SPEAKER_01 2:05

It is, it is. Um Garr is also a lover of music, uh, especially classical English choral music and jazz. I I know um you did a BA in music at University of Wisconsin-Eau Claire, and then went on to do your MA in New Testament at Trinity, and then your PhD in New Testament at Marquette University. But I I did know that part of your bio that takes you back to your undergraduate years where you studied music.

SPEAKER_00 2:30

Yes. Yep. That was um what uh what I found out as an undergrad was that I loved music and that it would had to be avocational. It wasn't what I was about professionally. Um and so somewhere in the middle of all of that, I thought I might like to study theology someday. Uh and someday I did, but it not right away. Um, but you know, I'll tell you a quick side point to that. Um, one of my best friends as an undergrad student was Janine Brown, who is a New Testament scholar. And um, we were in the music department together. She was my piano accompanist. Um, and we've had this like fun parallel uh uh scholarly journal and uh journey into New Testament studies, and we were just both members of the University chapter and developed a love for scripture, and uh we've been friends ever since.

SPEAKER_01 3:24

Oh, that's a great story. Well, I do want to go back a little bit before we get into the the meat of our conversation, Gar. And I'd love to hear a bit from you about where your passion for Christian education began. Uh, where did it begin and when did it begin? I mean, you've spent your whole professional career really around Christian education, intervarsity, then seminary education. And so how did that start for you? And then, you know, a bit of how it has evolved over the years, uh through the you know, through the trajectory of your career.

SPEAKER_00 3:57

I I think it has to have something to do with my own, you know, Christian uh testimony formation. And it really is a fairly simple story, which is that I was brought up, raised in a really wonderful, large Christian family with almost kind of ideal role models of my parents and among my siblings. Um, and so I came to the Christian faith um sort of easily. It was sort of handed to me on a platter. Um, at the same time, and as a late adolescent, early young adult, I had sort of intellectual questions about it. And, you know, I wondered, as people do, do I believe this? And if I do believe it, is it just because I happened to be raised a certain way? Is the Christian faith coherent? And so I became interested in apologetics and theology and just trying to make sense of the of the Christian faith. And then I came to realize, and this was really a hallmark of interparsity when I was a college student, that you know, the Christian faith and the lordship of Jesus Christ had to do with every single endeavor, including our thinking and our academics and so forth. So I just became a voracious reader at that time. And uh this is partly why music became avocational, is that I was just more interested in other things. And so uh in the process, then uh trying to think Christianly about everything became a passion. Um, and then I think the way that that ended up developing is through my uh ministry with undergraduate and graduate students with Inner Varsity. Um, I I retained that passion, but I came to see that perhaps some of my gifts were more in the area of teaching, maybe even scholarship. And I kept sort of doing that on my time, and it wasn't quite in the center of the job that I had. So um I was urged on by my seminary professors that I might pursue a PhD, and I did. And I was just very blessed then to uh have a faculty job full-time. And um, my passion at that point really became the church and the difference that well-trained, winsome, articulate uh in people of integrity make in a local parish, in a local church. And so that just became a kind of a consuming passion. Train them to study the Bible well, to teach well, to preach well, uh, to live out the Christian faith. And it has a transformative effect in local churches. And so that really became sort of what gets me out of bed in the morning.

SPEAKER_01 6:36

Yeah, that's really been a calling that's been consistent throughout your life. I know a little bit about your story. Um, for for our listeners, many of you know Cam Anderson is a colleague here, our associate director. Cam and Garwood are brothers. I don't remember, I was it a dairy farm you grew up on, or or kind of a general.

SPEAKER_00 6:55

Yeah, we we were uh all born in the upper peninsula, Michigan. And there was uh farming on uh in the family on both sides. Um and Cam sort of grew up being uh uh eight years older than I am, he sort of grew up in that environment until we moved to uh the suburb of Milwaukee in the early 60s. I had three years up there and no very virtually no memories. But yeah, that's our roots, is uh rural um rural upper Michigan.

SPEAKER_01 7:27

Yeah, so you you you have kind of a a a deep sort of wellspring of local church, rural church. Uh but that would have been a bit more of Cam's story, having been an older brethren.

SPEAKER_03 7:37

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 7:39

Let's let's transition to um the Noshoda House. Um the seminary you lead is really unique. Um for the benefit of our listeners, um would you share a bit about Neshoda House? Um in what ways does it follow uh a path that is um or or sort of stake out a path that's different than many of the more you know different the traditional seminaries or seminaries that follow a bit of a different model. What's what's unique about Neshota? If I were to visit, uh what would I experience?

SPEAKER_00 8:15

Okay, yeah, great question. So I mean let's just start with a name, right? It's called Neshoda House Theological Seminary, and one of our branding issues is like, what's a house? Upper House maybe has the same issue.

SPEAKER_01 8:28

We do.

SPEAKER_00 8:28

Cam and I think it's just hilarious that we both work for organizations with a last name house. That that's just kind of crazy to us. But um, we're we're a house because um, you know, we're although we're a seminary and it's in our name, we're also founded on really highly communal principles. So when Nishoda House was established in 1842, uh so we're 180 years old, uh, the original impetus was missional. You know, before they used that word missional, we were a missional seminary because um at that time uh we're we're a seminary in the Anglican tradition uh established in the Episcopal Church going that far back. And at that time, um, the challenge facing the Episcopal Church was planting churches on the Western frontier and trying to train up and raise people that could do that when the frontier was really a hard place to live, right? So you're in the middle of the 19th century, your seminaries are on the East Coast, they're urban in general, especially New York City, and folks didn't necessarily do that well on the frontier because they hadn't trained under those conditions. So Nashoto House was founded back then to be on the frontier in order to serve the frontier and extend um the Anglican tradition out to the Western United States. Um, and so we trained people in under the conditions in which they would eventually uh live in. And that sort of missional identity established who we are from the beginning. But then there's sort of a secondary factor there, which is we were also uh under the influence of more sort of high church, high Anglo-Catholic Oxford movement, uh Anglican principles. So that meant that this was a more sacramental, uh more liturgically high church, um, more Catholic in um ethos, sort of an institution. And if you take that missional and that sort of Catholic high church sensibilities, that's really who we are and what we've been for 180 years. But then if you add to that the fact that we really have a kind of a benedictine or kind of quasi-monastic ideal that we follow. So we live in a very close community that a lot of seminaries have done away with, right? So these days, um, you said traditional, we're the traditional seminary, and what has become the standard seminary now model has been uh people have maximized, I would say, accessibility um for all kinds of good reasons. They've maximized the accessibility of theological formation, but they've minimize sort of the communal um and interpersonal uh and liturgical worship elements of formation, and we maximize those things. So um I don't disparage any other seminary. I was thrilled to work when I worked at Asbury Seminary. We were a commuter seminary. I went to seminary as a commuter. I I don't disparage that at all, but there really isn't anything like um a community of people that live cheek to jowl and learn how to lead communities by being formed in community.

SPEAKER_01 11:56

That yeah, that's so important. I'm glad that you sort of corrected my language. Oh, I didn't really mean it as a correction, but it's funny, right? It it it's right on. It's right on. I think you really are in some ways, uh, you're you're really focused on a traditional model of formation that is that does stand in contrast to accessibility and and in some ways, um, kind of the hybrid models and all the ways that seminaries have tried to innovate to to broaden um potential student communities and things like that.

SPEAKER_00 12:25

And you know, we're not against that. Nor do we you know fail to understand that. And in fact, we do our own version of that. We we also have a hybrid distance program and we have low residency programs, but we don't have any no residency programs. Right. So even compared to other sort of hybrid distance programs, we say um, even though we know we could have more students by taking more things online and remote, we say, no, we just think that being here, worshiping in our chapel twice a day, um, sharing meals together, sitting with your professors, um, so much of our learning happens outside of the classroom and the assignments. Um, we just don't see any way that you can replicate that um in any other way. And so much of the interpersonal and personal formation just happens that way. We we just believe in it. And um kind of against the grain, we've we've hung on to that because we think um it's too important. And sort of the success rate for uh ministerial formation isn't really that good. Um, and I don't think it's going to get better to the extent that theological education becomes increasingly commodified and sort of turns into a and I don't disparage any anybody here, but it it's kind of a drive-thru experience. And we're at a banquet table here.

SPEAKER_01 13:50

Yeah. And I uh you know, I've been through seminary and I did it as a you know in a part-time model uh while working. Uh the the being able to do courses in residence, but also from a distance um was helpful for me, but it you know, it it it isn't the full experience. It's it's a different kind of experience than than you have when you're in community. Cheek to jowl, I think was the the term you used. It's a very different experience.

SPEAKER_00 14:17

Yeah, and I did mine that way, John. So I I I don't say it it was great for me. Academically, it was great for formation, um, spiritual formation. That happened in other places. And it and that can that can work. But um what we're doing here is um yeah, I'm a convert.

SPEAKER_01 14:37

Yeah, I I well it's there's something very unique. I've been on the the Neshota House Theological Seminary campus. It's beautiful, you come in. Um for the benefit of our listeners, what would be unique about the experience there? Um I I imagine people have uh you know perceptions of what seminary is like. Many have probably been through that, others have had friends that have been through it. But you know, if I were to visit someone were to visit Noshota House, what would they see in the life of the place that would stand out?

SPEAKER_00 15:09

I mean, we would have to start with the fact that we God blessed us with just a sort of a naturally beautiful environment. We're on a lake, it's woodsy, um, it's it's remote. Like you can get anything you need within eight minutes of the place, but you don't feel like that when you're here. Uh so that's just uh a blessing from God. But then apart from that, I think what you would notice is that um our chapel really sort of functions as the the ethos and ideological and almost literal center of our campus. Um and and I say that because we start every day um at 7:45 with a uh morning prayer service followed by a daily uh celebration of the Holy Eucharist. Um and every day of the week, every every day of the year, save for Easter morning, um, that happens here. So that's pretty uh that's pretty unusual. And then we end our day formally with uh normally a sung even song service again in the Anglican tradition. Um and that that sort of is the beginning and end of our day. All of our students, all of our faculty participate in those required services every day. Um, and so one of the reasons that we can kind of uh live together with one another apart uh despite and within differences that we have is that we're sort of founded on brain together. So then in between that, you know, we have meals that we share with one another, and of course we have classes, and like one of the ways that I like to say it is we start our day in the praise of God, um, and then we kind of go on to our classes to understand a little better what we said, what we said to God that morning, and we returned into the chapel at the end of the day with sort of more reasons uh to exalt um the triune God and that you know, rinse, repeat, recycle, that has a formative effect on you.

SPEAKER_01 17:09

It does 365 days a year, you know. Um that that's a a really formative experience, as you've noted.

SPEAKER_00 17:16

If I might interrupt, just in the meantime, in between all of that, then our students also like they have to work. Um, I mean, besides studying, they they actually do physical labor as a part of their formation. We all do each other's dishes in our uh refectory. The faculty put aprons on and clear tables and wash dishes just like our students do. Um and so we we enjoy a kind of a common life together that you don't see very much out there anymore. And for us, none of these things are a bug. They're a feature, right? Like we wouldn't change it if we had an endless amount of money available to us. We would still be doing that.

SPEAKER_01 17:56

You know, it's interesting. I'm even reflecting on my own experience, and again, I had a great seminary experience. Um, but it it struck me that I could essentially matriculate all the way through seminary and never really have to work with another fellow seminarian. It was very different than my MBA, which was uh a high percentage of group and teamwork. Um and of course you learn how to deal with conflict and um people who don't have English as a first language, and you're responsible, you know, you're responsible for different gifts and skills, uh, strengths, weaknesses, you've got to, you know, put together um and work on projects together, meet deadlines and so forth. And there's a there's a working out of that that's really helpful. And I I could imagine a communal life where you're maybe not working alongside someone in the classroom interdependent on a project or a paper, but working alongside someone on the grounds of the seminary, eating uh in chapel 365 days a year, in that common rule of life, common rhythm of life. It really does uh challenge you to um to think about um conflict and conflict resolution and um forgiveness and other things that are really formative for the life of a pastor.

SPEAKER_00 19:15

That's right. Exactly. So I mean I think another element of that for us is um we our faculty are uh you know probably almost to a fault for the sake of their lives, quite accessible to our students. Um and we eat our meals with uh the students. Often the topic of a faculty or a classroom conversation ends up as a dinner or lunch conversation, right? Which is just wonderful. Um, the seminary that I went to used to run an ad and like Christianity Today and those sorts of magazines that in a big stack of books, because they were very prolific scholars and outstanding, and say, study with the people who write the books, right? And my tagline for us, I don't think it'll ever play as an ad is uh study with the people who haven't written all of these books because they're eating lunch with you. Um not that we're trade off books, right? But maybe like half or fewer than we would if we were just sort of teachers that went to be recluses.

SPEAKER_01 20:20

Yeah. I'm not sure that'll get by your communication marketing department, but you should try.

SPEAKER_00 20:25

I always think of kind of crazy things like that, and and you know that none of them have gotten by.

unknown 20:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 20:33

Well, that that in my book, you're innovative and entrepreneurial. Not stale.

SPEAKER_00 20:39

Not stale, that's right.

SPEAKER_01 20:42

Uh I want to turn to seminary education a little bit more broadly. Um and you touched on this at the very beginning, but uh, and it might seem like an obvious question, and it probably is an obvious question, but but why is seminary education so vital to uh the life of the church?

SPEAKER_03 21:00

Right.

SPEAKER_00 21:01

Um You know, I want to say, I want to start and an answer to that question by saying I don't think that that is as obvious as maybe some of us who do this think it should be. And what I want to say in that vein is there are persons that have sort of gifts and charisma and talents and so forth that actually turn out to be pretty effective leaders of churches who haven't had the theological seminary experience or not much of it. And that always is sort of a datum that I think uh theological seminaries need to account for. In other words, is it is it actually the case that there are certain kinds of people that just can do this sort of leadership, or maybe they're good communicators, maybe they sort of learn their craft um by by means of um apprenticing and so forth. And there are a lot of people that are pointing out these days that some of the ministerial formation that we should be doing maybe doesn't need seminaries. Um, and I think we should start with that critique, that sort of datum, and then step back and say, but why doesn't that actually work in the long run? And I think the key phrase there is the long run, which is to say there is a degenerative effect when people are not well trained theologically, biblically, are not rooted in uh Christian spiritual practices in a deep way. Um, and what ends up happening is the church sort of runs on charisma or sort of like I would say leadership carbohydrates, you know, which is one of the things that we're watching, I think, happening in the megachurch phenomenon. Um, and those things run dry, they run flat, um, and they run askew. Whereas I would say the theological seminary here is to teach people not only the rudiments and the deeper things of the faith, but also teach them how to be a lifelong learner in scripture, in the Christian tradition, theology, uh, all of that sort of thing, so that their roots run so deep that they can be nourished for a lifetime rather than just depending on um on the sort of the short-term and um trying uh ephemeral, ephemeral, ephemeral skills of the leader. Um and so what I think we are watching is that um the the move away from theological seminaries in especially in the evangelical tradition, is creating a um a tendency toward a thoughtless faith that's just endlessly trying to keep people uh sorry to say this, but entertained or some sort of trying to pique their interest, sort of gimmick after gimmick, but there isn't anything there that doesn't uh sustain. It won't sustain the Christian faith. And then I would say in the mainline traditions, the Protestant mainline traditions, the theological seminaries have been so theologically progressive and adventuresome that they're training people that are not deeply rooted in in the Christian faith. And they they are leading churches that have become about other things than salvation through Christ and the worship of the triune God. Um just good humanitarianism, and that is also not going to sustain. So I feel like theological seminaries have an answer that they need to give to the evangelical world that's running on charisma. We have an answer for them. We also need to answer to the fact that in some ways, in the decline of the church, we've been part of the problem rather than part of the answer.

SPEAKER_01 25:01

So that's really helpful. From your perspective, um, Garr, you know, if you're sitting in front of a prospective student, what would you tell them or or how would you respond to them? I guess maybe it's a better way to frame this, if they asked you about um your sort of philosophy of the purpose of seminary education. How would you articulate that given where we've been in this conversation? Um and and some of the values that I I think have emerged in your own um your own sort of philosophy of formation, um, including your time at Noshoda House.

SPEAKER_00 25:40

Um first of all, I love to say uh I uh I love having a um prospective student sitting with me. Uh that's one of the things I really love about the job because they're exploring, you know, what how God is gifted and how God is calling, and often how seminary fits in that is just the missing piece. And it's a it's a it's really fun to talk about how how it actually is a missing piece for their vocational um their sense of call. Right. So, John, to answer that question, I have to talk about it in terms of how we try to do it here and the way that we see it, which is going to have some in common with other seminaries and maybe some different emphases. But the way that we describe this is in terms of sort of three areas of formation that we think are essential for the Christian leader and ordained person. So when we talk about our curriculum, it's all under three headings. Um we say them in Latin because it has a little bit of gravitas to it, but the first is a faithful character, or we say habitus the idea so the habits of life, the ethos, the character is sort of fundamental, we think. And then the second thing is uh a faithful intellect, faithful, faithful thinking, theology, competency with scripture, um, in thinking through ethical and theological questions. So we say intellectus fide, a faithful intellect. And then thirdly, it's a proxis fidae, which is to say a faithful practice. So um ministers, um, ordained people, Christian leaders need to be able to do things uh effectively, and seminary is about that also. But we don't think seminary is about any one of those things alone apart from the others. And we think that the faithfulness of one's character and the integrity of one's life is really the supremely important thing upon which the other things would be built.

SPEAKER_01 27:44

Yeah, and we often in more vernacular we talk about head, hands, and heart.

SPEAKER_00 27:48

Yeah. That actually fits with that, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_01 27:52

Yeah, or you know, uh I'll sort of you know, my own take, uh I I've thought about uh orthodoxy, orthopraxy, and orthopathy, right? The the the right affections, right knowledge, and um right practice.

SPEAKER_00 28:07

Aaron Powell Yeah, it almost seems like there's something just right about those three things because in different language, if we're thinking rightly, we're thinking those are the three things we're thinking about.

SPEAKER_01 28:19

Well, and and it's and it's three. You never can go wrong with the thing. That's what we can remember. Well, that that that's that's really helpful. Um and I do think having been to Noshoda House and uh uh for extended periods of time and just seeing it, I think that those three commitments are are are really visible and you know a real part of the life there. I'd like to explore um the historically um the relationship between seminaries and the church um and and how that's evolved over time. And I I know you um are in an interesting place um in in this relationship because you you serve the Episcopal Church, you you you train and equip um uh um leaders within the Episcopal Church and also the Anglican Church of North America, I think other other denominations as well. Maybe you have students, many students or some students who who are outside of those um two traditions, but but the the unique relationship that Noshoda House has had with the church or denominations, and then how seminary education has how it started, and then from your perspective, how it has evolved with respect to its relationship with particular traditions or denominations within the Christian church.

SPEAKER_00 29:41

Yeah, that's a big set of questions, and it and a historian could do better with them than I can.

SPEAKER_01 29:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:47

But I would say that um just sort of speaking from within our uh current circle, what what mainline Protestantism had in terms of seminaries um was a sort of geographical distribution uh of seminaries for each denomination, each with their own distinctive character to some extent. And somehow between geography and small differences of ethos, they would serve that church. And there was a pretty strong mutual regard between the seminaries and the denomination that was probably um made them stable and productive. Um, and I think things have evolved over time into a much more of a sort of marketplace mentality uh in which seminaries sort of have to fight for their niche. Um, they have to put themselves out there, they have to make the case why, even within their own denomination, people ought to attend it. I'm thinking of like the way that uh Fuller Seminary became a very big um uh servant of the Presbyterian Church, especially PC USA, right? Not only, of course. Or I think of the way that like Asbury Seminary, where I taught, was never a seminary of the United Methodist Church, but just had a very large number of United Methodists. So what what it happened and has developed over time is um unaffiliated um seminaries started to make the case, and maybe by virtue of their performance, or maybe by virtue of some other uh qualities of why they should vie for students that were once exclusive to mainline seminaries. And that's happened within the Anglican and Episcopal world as well. I think, like, for example, one of our best options in the Episcopal Church and in the Anglican Church is the Anglican Episcopal House of Studies at Duke. But Duke's a Methodist seminary, right? And you know, Gordon Conwell has an Anglican Studies program, Regent College has an Anglican Studies program. So there's a lot of vying for the same sort of pool of people. And that sort of loyalty between denomination and their seminaries uh doesn't exist the way that it once did. And I don't necessarily blame anybody for that. That has to do with practical matters. It also may have something to do with seminaries, the sense that people feel that maybe they've failed their denomination. So, all of that to say, now for us, we have to make the case that the Neshoda House ethos, what we do, the way that we do it, what we sort of stand for and produce, um, is valuable enough that um we should be serving the traditions that we were created to serve. So there was a time when, say, at our seminary, there were um dioceses in the Episcopal Church that were known either to be conservative theologically or sort of liturgically high church. They used to call it the Beretta Belt. Um Beretta is the you know is an Anglo-Catholic hat uh worn as an alternative to the Canterbury hat, the more uh sort of Protestant Reformed. So while the Beretta Belt, Neshota was just their seminary. Nishoda didn't have to recruit those students. The bishops from those dioceses said, well, of course you're going to Nishoda House. That doesn't exist anymore for many of our seminaries. Um the student has a much greater role in making the decision. Uh the bishops are open to sending people a variety of places, and they're very open to the accessibility of theological training. Um, so it just means that seminaries have to become more entrepreneurial. They have to work harder to sort of make their case. And in the case of Episcopal and Anglican seminaries, you know, we're we're seeing fewer of them than we had 10, 15, 20 years ago. Uh we have mergers going on, seminaries that embed in larger institutions, and seminaries that are probably going to go out of business. Um so we're all sort of fighting for our life in a way. Um, and you know, a number of ways to do that. One is to make yourself maximally accessible, go to the fully sort of online, remote approach. Um, that's not a bad model. Um, that's a possibility. Another way to do it is to prove yourself to be the best, uh, the most esteemed faculty, um, and so forth. Um and I think for us, we've chosen to try to be the most distinctive.

SPEAKER_03 34:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:51

Uh unique, you said the word unique. We're trying to make ourselves the most peculiar um in ways that we are think we think the church needs today.

SPEAKER_01 35:00

Yeah. You've hinted and and maybe you've been even more explicit about um all the pressures that are um not new, but maybe intensified. And I wonder if you could speak to some of the the forces um I'm thinking more sort of external forces, uh demographic forces, changes in the in the in the broader landscape that um are changing um the the formula, so to speak, at seminaries and schools of divinity. Um and because I it may not be obvious, but you know, I know there are economic, demographic, and other kinds of broad uh uh cultural trends and demographic trends that really are having uh an impact on um what's happening on the ground.

SPEAKER_00 35:52

Yeah, so an obvious place to start is what the the colleges, undergrad especially, are feeling, which is there's a smaller pool of even possible students. Um and so they're they're fighting over a smaller pool. Um that's not uh directly related to us, but it's not not related, right? Because that means that pool as it moves through the uh um demographics is going to affect us also. But then, you know, the more particular uh challenge for seminaries is that um church attendance, church membership is declining. Uh it's declining precipitously in mainline Protestantism, and it's declining um some or maybe not so much among evangelicals. So evangelicals are have a sort of a practically lower view of the seminary than they did um a generation ago. And the mainline churches are producing fewer persons for ordained ministry and in a lot of cases actually need fewer, right? So we're that pool is is um is shrinking. Now, uh one of the things I would say about us is we we feel like, well, uh that's a that's an issue, but we're not so large that major demographic shifts have to mean the world to us. Um and in fact, we think that um there's a hunger, especially among younger Christians, for the sort of formation and training, really the sort of rich uh uh and deeply rooted Christianity. Uh there's a deep hunger for young among younger Christians, especially people pursuing ordination, uh, of the sort of thing that we offer here. So I worry a little bit about the demographics, and I think you can see them across the board among the theological seminaries, but for our own institution, I think the answer there is to be um more more distinctive and not more generic. Or another way I might I might say that, excuse me, I is I think McDonald's has to worry a lot about people eating less meat and gluten intolerance. But if you're like a um if your thing is sort of the gourmet um burger, right, at a brew pub, um you're not as worried about that. What you want to do is like have really great beers and a really great burger that people want to go out of their way to have. Right. So that's kind of where I see us is we're not McDonald's. We're the brew pub with the gourmet burger.

SPEAKER_01 38:40

Yeah. The I wonder if you could speak a bit more about the economic challenges you see. This maybe doesn't apply as much to Noshoda House, because I know your student um student numbers have been on the incline. Um so you've been, I think, moving in the opposite direction of a lot of seminary education. Um I I think I've got that right. Um and so you're growing. Um but I I I I'm thinking about all the seminaries that are um selling property or trying to sell property to sort of um reconfigure their balance sheets and and and and and and you just see these sort of massive um changes taking place. And I I wonder if you could um speak to that from your perspective.

SPEAKER_00 39:28

Right. Well, before we um uh exalt ourselves too much, we just have to say Nashuda House only exists today because it owns so much highly priz property. So we've been selling property like other seminaries are today for decades. And uh, you know, we're we're neither proud nor ashamed of that, but it is it is the case. So we also aren't financially viable yet to the way that we need to be. Um and one of the ways this institution made it through hard times is it owned property on a lake and good farm property and so forth. So um, so a lot of seminaries are are are finding themselves in that position, and um uh and we're not unique in that way. On the other hand, as you pointed out, our our enrollment numbers grew essentially doubled from 2017 to our 2021 census, which is not something you know many seminaries can say. So we do think that um, you know, growth is possible. We are uh experiencing that. But even so, um, if we took in every possible student that we could fit into every classroom and housing space that we have, it still wouldn't be enough financially to sustain the institution. And I think that's pretty much true for every seminary. And at this point, only the seminaries with really large endowments uh find themselves in a comfortable position, and even they are challenged. So you can grow by enrollment and close the uh financial gap that way, but we also have to close it with endowment money and with um with a very assertive fundraising. Um so all of this has a lot to do with how expensive it is to run small educational institutions where you need a substantial, though small, um, well-equipped faculty that deserve to be properly compensated. And then you need all of the staff you need to do all of the functions that an institution has. And if you're like we are, you know, in the 100 to 150 student range, there's not enough tuition or fees to fund all of that.

SPEAKER_03 41:52

Right.

SPEAKER_00 41:53

So we really need people that believe in it and that will come alongside and say, yeah, this is this is long-term strategic for the health and well-being of the of the church, and and we're willing to buy into that and be a part of it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:07

Yeah. And there, I'm assuming you've seminaries have explored fee for service options and other kinds of models of revenue generation, and there just aren't a probably aren't enough ideas out there to to to balance the budget. It really does have to come from generous benefactors, foundations, philanthropic initiatives to really make it work.

SPEAKER_00 42:28

Yeah, I think largely, you know, with probably some exceptions, that's pretty much true across the board. The one thing that you're watching now is that it just turns out that historically um seminaries were able to locate in places urban and otherwise that have become uh very valuable properties. And so that there is a trend of selling a high priced property, uh putting the proceeds into an endowment, and then uh moving a place that's less uh less expensive and using that endowment to fund future endeavors. So that's a model that we're we're seeing quite a bit of. Um and you know, it's one because of the treasure that we think we sit on, we we hope not to exercise.

SPEAKER_01 43:16

Yeah, yeah. And for the benefit of our listeners, um Noshota House is located in Noshota, Wisconsin, which is about midway um midway between Madison and Milwaukee, close to Okana, Milwaukee, um, but just a beautiful setting. So I think I wanted to get this in earlier. It's the oldest um educational institution. Is this right in the state of Wisconsin? Right. So it predates uh Beloit College, which I think is quite old, University of Wisconsin.

SPEAKER_00 43:47

Carroll College is our closest uh competitor. There's a little there's a little competition between the two of us. It's sort of like what do you mean by higher education institution? Yeah, but you know, this is our Podcast, so Noshota's the oldest.

SPEAKER_01 44:02

We we'll claim Noshoda House today. It's great. It's like Wisconsin and Minnesota claiming the most lakes in the country. So let me take a little bit of a different angle. And I'd like to first um have you reflect on challenges that students face. When they show up at Neshoda House and matriculate through the program, what are some of the typical challenges that you have to help them overcome and build organizational capacity to help them overcome?

SPEAKER_00 44:45

Wow. Yeah. Great question. So, I mean, I think a starting place is especially the way that we do formation, and especially for our residential students, they like literally, well, almost literally, leave their nets and follow Jesus. Right. So they're they're typically often selling homes, leaving vocations in order to do this. And they're doing it uh in a church that has, uh no matter what they're affiliated with, they're doing it in a church that has an uncertain future. So they sense that God has called them. And so they're they're doing this training at great personal expense, literal and and and psychic, um, for a future that is a little bit uncertain. So that's probably that kind of overriding anxiety is a is a great starting place. It's also kind of a great starting place for formation, right? Trusting God. Um and it's one of the reasons we think our students come out with a kind of commitment and resilience that maybe isn't typical everywhere. So that would be kind of a starting point. Um, I think a sort of second challenge is um all graduate education is stressful. Um, you're you're being tested um uh with your peers. Um, you don't you you want to keep up, you want to do well. Um, but for most of our students, that means they're they have a family, they're trying to do right by their family, be good uh parents, in a lot of cases, being good spouses and so forth. So just kind of fitting the demands of a very demanding formation together with family life. Um, our approach is not, you know, not so different than a boot camp or a med school or a law school in terms of the demands. But of course, those places are sort of known for often destroying families. And we want to strengthen families. So that's another thing that we we really have to work hard to shepherd people through that experience. And I don't say we always, you know, succeed 100%. Um, but many of many of our students will look, alumni, look back and say, yeah, those are some of that was hard, and they were some of the happiest years of our life because of what we experience. I think a third thing is, again, this has to do with the way we're doing formation, is um the best thing about us is our community life. And it's it's absolutely the worst thing about us. Like it's the hardest part of the experience is you go from how wonderful it is to make all these new friends and to have fun together to realize somebody who's my neighbor never picks up his dog's poop, right? My kid stepped in it, and I can't get them to do the right thing. Or um they make too much noise, or um they're obnoxious in class, you know, and right. So all of those things which we talked about earlier, um, are another, you know, I think really big challenge. But if you add all of those things up, like taking the risk, um managing a very challenging uh set of demands and schedule, living in community, it's also just like a it's a crucible for formation if it's handled well and and um done well.

SPEAKER_01 48:12

Garwin, I wonder if you could speak to challenges um that faculty face.

SPEAKER_03 48:19

Right.

SPEAKER_00 48:20

Um so yeah, I think um the first thing I would say is um faculty that are in theological seminaries, they want to be there. Um some of them had options to do other things, and forming people for ministry um in within the context of a discipline that they care about and think is important, they they want it. Um and so you know, sometimes we'll complain about our lives and the demands and so forth. But it's good to step back and say, yeah, but if I were independently wealthy, I would probably choose something like what I do. Maybe bargain for a few things. But uh it's a great life. And that's true of our faculty, um, even as it concerns sort of the communal and pastoral and mentoring uh overload that they experience um given the way that we do things. They're here because they want to be here and they they believe in this way of doing seminary formation.

unknown 49:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:25

That said, it can be sort of never-ending, you know, not unlike a parish priest or a church uh minister, the the needs and demands of of people around you can be overwhelming, and um and finding that the space and balance in life can be difficult. Um a particular challenge for I think our faculty is because they don't just teach and uh uh and and leave the campus to to their personal studies, um they would like to be active and make an important contribution in their disciplines, but time is short for that. There's not a lot of extra time available to it. And and so sometimes they feel pressure um as they compare themselves to peers that they had new from grad school who are publishing more or maybe uh making a bigger name for themselves. Are they are they making the right choice?

unknown 50:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:24

Garwit, I want to also give some airtime for administrators and staff. Um I'm sympathetic uh to this category, but but what's particularly challenging, do you find particularly challenging in the in the role uh you play and some of your colleagues there that are um serving in an administrative capacity?

SPEAKER_00 50:44

Right. So, you know, an expression we use around here is uh because we're small and we have a uh a fairly skeletal staff in administration compared to what we might wish for. Um though we punch above our weight, um we we hustle um because the other option is not existing. So our administrators, our staff, they they go that extra mile. Um they're very, very hardworking, dedicated people. And at a certain point, of course, if that sort of work-life balance goes too far askew for too long, other things develop like unhealthy patterns and resentments and internal tensions one with another. So I would say that um living under the shadow of a financial and enrollment perpetual challenge can be very wearing on people. Um, and so we make a lot of the progress that we make, but even as we make progress, we're sometimes reminded there's still a ways to go uh for us to entirely fulfill the vocation we think we have. I just want to say one other stress that I think theological seminaries are facing is um we know that our whole you know um American public has become more polarized. Um it it our our social discourse tends to be more vitriolic than than ever, or at least in our lifetimes. And that has afflicted the church. And so one of the challenges that we we face in our set in the seminaries, and this is across the board, is that um a very opinionated and confident, onlooking public always has opinions about um decisions, theological, ethical, business that the seminaries are making, and every decision you make is wrong to somebody. And realizing that although you enjoy a certain rapprochement among your community and within your borders, um, that's harder to achieve out there. Um and and just knowing that every choice will be subject to somebody's second guessing and judgment can wear on a person in a divided and you know broken church.

SPEAKER_01 53:14

Yeah, I wanted to highlight this because I do think it's um it's important. All institutions have unique demands and challenges, and those who are called to lead institutions um face those challenges in in very sort of unique and personal ways. And um I think seminaries are um are a particular kind of institution and the pressures um mount and um and and and they're challenging. And so I wanted to give you an opportunity to give some voice to that because I I it's not always obvious that um that these challenges are in place. Um I'm my guess is that um you have a lot that you're thankful for, that you see a lot of hopefulness, that you have a lot of hope, that you see real signs of resilience and um new things happening in graduate theological education. What brings you hope um and um and and just sort of um you know animates you these days as you look around um beyond Noshoda House, but also um with respect to Noshoda House?

SPEAKER_00 54:22

The thing that I'm thankful for that just gives me hope and gets me out of bed every day, um, it's pretty simple and it's almost singular. And that is I get to watch people change, grow, be transformed over a period of time in the formation that they're doing in seminary. And then I get to go out and visit them in the churches and the places where they serve and see um that we made a great investment of our time and efforts because they are they're much beloved, they're appreciated, they're they're transforming congregations. And if I could just multiply that effect uh with you know, more students, more graduates, more transformation happening out there, I think the theological seminary is not the answer for a declining church, but it's been part of the problem for too long, and it can be one important part of what transforms uh you know a Christian church in America today that is that is struggling. But um, looking at it more hopefully, optimistically, I just sincerely believe that well-formed persons of high integrity, knowledge and skills um will make a big impact on the church.

SPEAKER_01 55:43

Yeah, yeah. Well, this is this is great. I I want to move toward closing our conversation, but I I did have a final question for you, um Gar. And I wondered if you could speak a little bit um to the role of hospitality in seminary education. And I'm looking here at something that when I was at Neshoda House was was um placed before me, and that is um a prayer for Noshoda House, which I think is in some ways, you know, it's a prayer of blessing, but it's really um maybe in the Benedictine tradition, you know, really a statement about hospitality. And I wonder if you could speak to this document, and we'll post this in the show notes or a link to this in the show notes so our listeners can can find it. But um what is the role of what is the prayer for Neshoda House and then what is the role of uh seminary uh hospitality um in seminary education?

SPEAKER_00 56:40

Right. Uh thank you. Well, um that prayer you're referring to, and it'd be great if you you wish to link it. Um it's a prayer we uh pray literally every day at our evening prayer service. Bless, O Lord, this house set apart to the glory of thy great name and for the benefit of thy holy church. I I could say the whole thing because I do say it every day. And you're right, it is a it is a invocation of God to bless this place, that through it uh the church and the world might be blessed. Um, and you're right also that um it it has a benedictine flavor and that hospitality is a is a sort of a key idea um within that within that framework. And so what we believe about that is that God has spaces in the world, and we happen to have inherited one of them where um persons can come together who might in other spaces never know one another or worse, be at enmity with one another and be welcomed and received, um, and know the love of Christ concretized in an actual human community. Right. So that's what hospitality means. And we think that we've been gifted, uh, I won't say uniquely, but especially in this space, um, and especially for this time to exercise that kind of hospitality. And we think that it's transformative when people um experience it as those who receive it, and even more so as they exercise that kind of hospitality.

SPEAKER_01 58:22

Yeah. Well, I have enjoyed this conversation. Uh Garwood Anderson, thank you very much. I think that's a good note and word to end on. Um, we will share more about uh Neshota House and Garwood uh in our show notes. Um I'm I'm more encouraged and uh hopeful as a result of this conversation. I appreciate we appreciate all that you're doing at Noshota House and the way that you're um uh really advocating and and really working on behalf of graduate theological education more broadly. So thank you for your work and uh thanks to our listeners, and um, we really appreciate this time with you.

SPEAKER_00 59:00

Well, it's been exceedingly uh kind of you to give me a chance to uh to talk about these things with you. I know we share all of these passions and in common and sharing this last name house, working in collaboration with you all toward similar ends with different vocations is just one of our real delights.

unknown 59:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 59:21

Ours as well. So thank you, Garwood. Uh so good to spend this time with you.

SPEAKER_00 59:25

Great, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 59:27

Thanks for joining us. If you've enjoyed today's podcast, be sure to subscribe and give us a rating on your favorite podcast app. Also, be sure to check out our upcoming events on upperhouse.org and our other podcast upwards, where we dig deeper into the topics our in-house guests are passionate about. With Faith in Mind is supported by the Stephen and Laurel Brown Foundation. It is produced at Upper House in Madison, Wisconsin, hosted by Dan Hummel and John Terrell. Our executive producer and editor is Jesse Koopman. Please follow us on social media with the handle at UpperHouseUW.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:18

What I think we are watching is that the move away from theological seminaries in especially in the evangelical tradition, is creating a tendency toward a thoughtless faith that's just endlessly trying to keep people, um sorry to say this, but entertained or some sort of trying to pique their interest, sort of gimmick after gimmick.