When Trauma Looks Like ADHD: The Truth About Your Brain

ADHD or Trauma? The Truth About Your Brain, Your Triggers & Your Healing

Episode Summary:

What if the symptoms you’ve been calling ADHD… are actually trauma?

In this powerful episode of Don’t Ask Me Shit, Coach Dorie sits down with Charles Cogshell to break down one of the most confusing conversations in mental health right now:

👉 Is it trauma… or is it a neurodivergent brain?
 👉 And what happens when it’s BOTH?

They unpack how trauma can mimic ADHD symptoms like lack of focus, emotional overwhelm, impulsivity, and brain fog—and why so many people are mislabeling survival responses as personality traits or disorders.

This is the conversation people are afraid to have… but desperately need.

🔑 Key Takeaways:

• Neurodivergence explained simply: A brain that processes and learns differently 
•  Why ADHD exists on a spectrum (not just one “type”) 
•  How trauma rewires the brain and impacts focus, memory, and emotions 
•  The role of the amygdala (fear center) and why you feel constantly “on edge” 
•  How trauma can create: 
  •  Brain fog 
  •  Emotional dysregulation 
  •  Hypervigilance 
  •  Forgetfulness 
•  Why toxic relationships ARE real trauma (not “you being dramatic”) 
•  How being neurodivergent can make you more sensitive to trauma
•  The truth about cumulative trauma (little T vs big T)
•  Why your brain may be stuck in survival mode
•  How healing trauma can actually reduce ADHD-like symptoms

🧠 Tools Mentioned:

•  Breathwork (square breathing) 
•  Grounding techniques (5-4-3-2-1 method) 
•  Cold water reset 
•  Vagus nerve stimulation 
•  Somatic practices (body-based healing) 
•  Talk therapy & trauma processing 

💥 Real Talk Moment:

Just because someone else “went through worse” doesn’t mean your trauma isn’t real.

Your brain responds based on your sensitivity, your experiences, and your nervous system—not someone else’s.

🎯 Call to Action:

If this episode hit you, it’s time to stop labeling yourself as “broken” and start understanding what your brain has been trying to protect you from.

👉 Ready to heal for real?
 Join my coaching programs or connect with me to start your journey.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:32

And welcome to Don't Ask Me Shit, the podcast where we stopped attending, stopped sugarcoating, and stop dancing around the real issues. I'm Coach Dory, your stress and management, distress management, and relationship recovery coach, helping people heal from toxic family, friends, and romantic partners. This is a place that for the conversation people avoid relationships, accountability, self-sabotage, healing, boundaries, and all the messy stuff folks don't want to talk about. But here's the deal: you can ask Coach Dory anything, but if you're not ready to do the work, don't ask me shit because I'm not here to co-sign your excuses. I'm here to help you grow. So today I want to welcome, and I just closed that screen accidentally. Oh my gosh, here we go. Already.

SPEAKER_02 1:22

No problem.

SPEAKER_00 1:23

Me and my nonsense already.

SPEAKER_02 1:26

Let me uh know if you want me to, I could introduce myself, not a lot to say.

SPEAKER_00 1:32

Yeah, let's do that this way this time because the whole screen just disappeared while I'm looking at it.

SPEAKER_02 1:39

I got a couple screens uh open myself. So if you see me look off, I'm just trying to keep myself on track and point myself back to my notes. Uh but my name is Charles Coxhell. I've worked as a social worker for we'll just say over 20 years now. Uh my background in education, I've studied Singles University for my undergrad in psychology, uh, did graduate studies uh at Washington University, uh earning a certificate as a certified research assistant. I've taken uh multiple trainings and in counseling-led groups, have a deep fascination and done some intense study, uh neurobiology of trauma in the brain. Uh so yeah, that's a little bit about me and and and my history and of clinical services here in St. Louis.

SPEAKER_00 2:26

Well, cool. So um, Charles, I had you on here today because the other day I had a uh a thought and I was thinking about all these ADHD symptoms that I tend to exhibit, but then I'm also realizing that trauma mimics neurodivergent brains. And so I got to asking myself the question like which comes first, the chicken and the egg, which comes first, the ADHD or the trauma? Or is it both? So it made me think about you because we've worked together in the past, and you're always uh uh a great, excellent resource for me to go to when I have these kind of questions. And so it's like, hey, let me reach out. And I thought we'd just share this with you guys today on the podcast of helping Charles helping us answer this question. So first I want to ask you the term neurodivergent, um, it's being widely used, but I think a lot of people don't really understand what it is. We only know things like ADHD, ADD, and things like that. Can you explain what uh neurodivergence is in a simple way for us to understand?

SPEAKER_02 3:41

Absolutely, absolutely. It has become uh a very commonly used term. Um and in its simple, simplest form, uh, it's defined uh as a brain that functions, it learns and processes information differently. Um so that's what it means to be considered to have a neurodivergent brain. So your your mind literally uh processes and learns differently from others. Hence you have the term that can't that is awful, you often use a lot now, neurotypical. So neurotypical is referring to anyone that has a common, I don't like the the the use sometimes they use the word normal functioning brain, uh because everyone's brain is unique and individual. Uh so you have a person who's who learns and processes information in the most common uh typical ways in these individuals, because uh neurodivergence is it gets into how the brain is literally wired. Uh so it's uh neurodivergence is something that you're you're born with. Um your brain is typically is wired differently, so it responds to uh sensory information, uh auditory, visual, uh whatever differently than most of society. And so we can think about it in terms of uh neurovite neurodivergence as being on a spectrum. And you already mentioned uh ADA ADHD, and I know we're gonna get into a deeper dive about that. Uh, but when we talk about uh neurodivergence, we're really talking about this this spectrum. Think about it as a spectrum. Uh on the on the spectrum at the lowest end, you have uh ADHD again, which is it which is attention deficit, hyperactivity disorder. To uh furthest extreme of the spectrum, you have autism spectrum disorder and and Asperger. So we're also somewhere on the continuum of having uh some features of ADHD through autism, which a lot of times people think of autism, and they think of individuals maybe that are non-verbal, but you have high-functioning individuals who uh are also on that autism spectrum, and they use the most commonly used term for that is Asperger syndrome. So I really just like to share that it's it's a spectrum. Um and the two most kind of just to kind of set level set examples, uh, because I I want to really kind of push people away from some of the negative context around autism when we talk about the spectrum from ADA to autism, uh ADHD to autism, uh, as individuals with uh Asperger's who are extremely attached, you can be extremely intelligent uh and and high functioning. Uh, and the two most common references that are often cited, that many people will know, are Elon Musk uh identifies himself as a person who is neurodivergent, uh manufacturer of Tesla and X and all that kind of stuff. Uh, I'm sure many of your uh your watchers and public will be familiar familiar with him. And also uh Bill Gates, the founder of Microsoft, is also has self-identified himself as a person uh who has a neurodivergent brain.

SPEAKER_00 7:16

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 7:17

Hopefully that helps a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 7:19

Yeah, that does. That yeah, I didn't even realize that they were a part of that community. Um, so that's actually kind of encouraging.

SPEAKER_02 7:31

I mean, many individuals on on the neurodivergent spectrum again are like literally considered brilliant or genius, yeah. So that word autism in there again. I know sometimes in in the public zeitgeist, uh, people have this real limited um conception of what it means to be autistic, and they think it means that you're lesser than or slow. It's like, well, you know, I may be a little adh, but I'm not autistic. Well, you can be autistic and brilliant.

SPEAKER_00 8:00

Yeah, right. So with that being said, and thanks for pointing out the brilliance of the brains that are on this spectrum, but there are a lot of us that have different symptoms from the on the spectrum that are not as helpful for us in our everyday lives. Um, and a lot of times we talk about ADHD and the can you tell us what some of those things that can be challenges in our life?

SPEAKER_02 8:30

Certainly. Uh, in particular when you talk about attention deficit disorder, you know, again, we we talked about that being the beginning kind of the scale of the spectrum. Uh individuals that have difficulty focusing uh is one of the core traits of uh attention deficit disorder. Um emotional dysregulation, also uh commonly thought of as a symptom of ADHD, but individuals um with ADHD tend to have higher rates of emotional dysregulation. Emotional dysregulation is just our ability to manage big emotions. Oh wow, we're always I love how psychologists have moved toward uh understanding that all this stuff is just on a spectrum, you know, and you may have high degrees of struggle with uh emotional regulation or or lower, but some increased difficulty with uh regulating emotions is seen in ADHD. Impulsivity. Uh when we talk about ADHD, it's actually two, there's two variances of it attention deficit disorder and attention deficit disorder hyperactivity. You don't have to have both. And I think sometimes the media does a good job of explaining uh you can just have the straight inattentive form, or you can have the form that uh is accompanied by impulsivity. The impulsivity is those individuals uh that obviously they have problems with impulse control, right? And still uh in um as an example, we use with children, uh, because oftentimes these things are first identified in young children. When they go to school in the circle time, they need to sit on this in a circle and around everywhere. It's like, you know, Johnny's we commonly use the word hyper or impulsive. Uh again, you know, having problems regulating big emotions, impulsive uh attention and forgetfulness kind of go together too. The other piece of ADHD that sometimes kind of gets forgotten. We talk about, yeah, you know, I'm doing things and I'm trying to multitask, but I'm struggling sustaining attention, uh, but having uh a more impacted uh ability to uh remember things, forgetfulness is also a key component of a true ADHD, ADHD type diagnosis.

SPEAKER_00 10:58

Okay. Wow, you just threw some things in there that I was not that whole emotional regulation. I wouldn't I didn't think realize that that was a symptom of hyper uh ADHD.

SPEAKER_02 11:10

That's one of the key components when you're doing a thorough uh uh uh kind of review. You you you really want to check in on uh emotional regulation skills as well. A big part of school, which I'm one thing that I love that's come out of a lot of research is done on this, is a lot of schools are shifting and focusing more on teaching very, very young children uh as a key skill, the ability to regulate their emotions, the ability to self-soothe, to self-calm. Because if you can catch, even if you struggle with poor attention or increase um impulsivity, if you have an aware of naming big emotions, labeling big emotions, and the and the self-soothing skills that you can do to calm those emotions down, a lot of times it helps them to function and be able to learn better. So emotional regulation is key in this, in this conversation.

SPEAKER_00 12:04

Wow, wow. So switching to trauma, how can trauma symptoms create and mimic those ADHD symptoms that you just named?

SPEAKER_02 12:18

Absolutely, absolutely. Uh trauma, um, one of the key distinctions when you when you when you're talking about trauma is an individual that has experienced some severe uh experience in life. There's uh environmental traumas, you can be in an earthquake, a flood, or whatever. There's interpersonal traumas. Uh, we think about individuals that have been in a car accident, we think about uh sexual trauma for women that that have experienced sexual abuse. So there's many different types of trauma and many things that can um cause people to have PTSD from a trauma. Uh, but the key core component of it is individuals with, at least I'll say severe traumas, may experience things like flashbacks. So they have uh these undesirable uh memories of that uh uh rape or of that car accident. Uh in very extreme cases, uh individuals that uh have experienced trauma may actually do what's called dissociation. Um dissociation uh involves individuals that like literally will lose uh tracks of time that will go go unaccounted for in their mind. I mean it's dissociation is is much more rare, uh, but in extreme uh trauma situations you can experience individuals that that do just dissociate. We think about in those again extreme cases, uh the new we used to use the word multiple personality disorder. The the new language in the DSM is dissociative identity disorder. So again, we're talking about the most acute uh form of trauma and people dissociating where they literally will lose track of time, experience, they're unaccounted for in their mind. Uh, but the key parts of the brain, attention, emotional regulation, uh hypervigilance uh that we're talked about that are hallmark features of attention deficit disorder are also seen in individuals who uh have these severe uh traumatic experiences. So they're both struggling with you know attention, focus, emotional uh regulation uh to the extreme dissociation. But with trauma, we know that there's a an event or series of events that's impacted their brain as to why they're experiencing flashbacks, dissociation. So uh though that's how you're gonna one of the things you wanna look at to um differentiate if someone's having uh these struggles because of past experience versus a brain that's just wired differently in an AD ADHD kind of um circumstance or situation.

SPEAKER_00 15:16

Okay. Do these, you know, I deal a lot with toxic relationships and betrayal trauma um uh in relationships, whether it be family, friends, or romantic partners. And a lot of times people uh I talk about the trauma that comes from those type of relationships, and people usually say it's unforgiveness, it's um you just haven't healed, you're bitter, you're hurt. Um, not to put them up there with um earthquakes and national disasters and things like that, but can you experience, can a person experience these type of uh symptoms even with betrayal trauma? Um or is it just something that's with bigger things? Is there a difference?

SPEAKER_02 16:01

Individuals certainly can experience all those issues in terms of uh what's called executive function order, so the prefrontal cortex, the front part of your brain, uh, which is responsible for uh what was called executive processing. So planning, shifting attention, uh, logic and reason, those are uh can be as equally impaired from a traumatic experience and or uh these words simple, but an ADHD uh rewiring of the brain. So that it's the exact same area of the brain that from low that regulates our ability to sustain logic, to remain calm, to shift our focus is impacted whether it's by a traumatic event or because we're neurodivergent, our brain is just wired differently. Uh so again, you may not, you typically will not see uh dissociation, uh, flashbacks uh in an individual that has ADHD, but that frontal lobe is just as significantly impaired. Their ability to calm themselves when their emotions are triggered or equally impaired, whether it's because their brain is wired differently, because they were born neurodivergently, or they experience uh individual or repeated traumas. I did a lot of work with children in foster care who grew up in chaotic environments, who sustained uh physical abuse and again or sexual abuse or and or neglect. We should we should not forget neglect. All these experiences as a child literally rewires our brain so that the frontal lobe, the executive lobe uh functions differently, uh our our our our startled response is different. Um, so our our ability and capacity to function neurotypically are impaired. And it really doesn't matter whether it came from an internal uh rewiring that occurred at birth or an external change to our wiring because of outside forces and trauma. So they are very much different, but very related and impact the same brain systems. It's it's it's it's it's a little scary sometimes for me when you when you think about uh both interpersonal relationships and and and assaults on on our person, on our sense of safety, and uh change our brain. Neuroplasticity is the idea that our brains have the ability to wire through our life. There was a time that we thought we you you're born and you kind of get what you get in the genetic lottery, your brain is now changed after age. We now know that our brain is constantly rewiring throughout our lifespan. Uh the zero to five is a very critical uh period of time for uh brain development and brain wiring. But our brain has the capacity to change throughout our lives. And when I change, rewire and make networks that allow us to function well in life, to regulate our emotions well, to be able to uh you know do those executive orders well, or to be easily dysregulated emotionally. So, no, excellent question.

SPEAKER_00 19:34

Wow. So is it possible this is scary to me, because there are certain things that I know even in my own personal life, I've begun struggling with a lot of these symptoms because of some narcissistic and traumatic relationships. However, there are things when I think back in my childhood, even though home life was a little chaotic, so it might explain why I was dealing with still these same symptoms, but it makes me wonder if I was struggling with ADHD symptoms, if I if I've diagnosed myself as ADHD because it's just easier. But uh if I actually am clinically ADHD. So is it possible for a person to be both if can both things be happening at the same time?

SPEAKER_02 20:28

Absolutely, absolutely they can happen at the same time. Uh it it it they can compound each other, obviously. Uh, but you can certainly have an individual who has had both childhood and adult experiences, uh, maybe where they started off wire wiring, uh, you know, neurodivergently, where they were maybe going to be a little more of a sensitive person. Uh they were gonna be more sensitive to sounds, they were gonna be more sensitive to uh lights, you know, uh, you know, stimul over stimulating them. Uh they just don't have, they were born with a lesser capacity to manage those things. And then as you go on through life and have other experiences, uh particularly traumatic, because I always like to talk about, we talk about what I call the uh little T traumas and big T traumas. So, you know, I started off talking about you know being in an earthquake, being in a car accident, being in uh, you know, um an abusive relationship. Those are kind of the what I call the big T traumas, but little T traumas neglect, uh, and I don't want to um put the category of of uh abusive or narcissistic relationships in a little T trauma, uh but they they both can impact us significantly, and those two things can absolutely be playing off each other. Having a brain that was probably wired to be a little more ADHD beginning of Spectrum and then kind of tweaked or pushed over into higher levels of dysregulation because of relationships. You know, toxic relationships. I know you educate a lot about that. Those toxic relationships can, especially a brain that's already leaning in that direction, can certainly be impacted and heavily dysregulated from relationships. Typically, our mother-child relationship is our first learning patterns about how we get our needs met or not. So that's the foundation. But then the subsequent relationships that we have after that inform our brain's ability to feel safe and connected in relationships or not. And if your brain is not feeling safe, you're we we can get into it later. But uh the amygdala is a deep subcortical structure of the brain. And with the amygdala's whole function and and job in the world is to sense threats in the world. So going back to that old neuro neurobiological um example when early man on the savannah, you know, if there was a cyber tooth tape, type tire or whatever, you had to be alert, or that tire hit you. You're not stronger than that tiger, you're not faster than that tiger, you have to be able to get away from that tire. So there's amygdala deep in your brain that it sends threats in in the environment.

SPEAKER_00 23:35

Is that what is that the part that controls the fight, flight, or freeze?

SPEAKER_02 23:39

Exactly. So your fight, flight, or freeze instinct is is is activated based on the amygdala, uh, and it's constantly scanning your environment. Are there threats? You know, so in it again, you know, in those olden days, the threat, you know, was this other animal gonna eat me in in contemporary times is a threat, is are my needs just not gonna get met? Because mom didn't meet my needs, because my caregiver, my spouse, my friends, you know, they're so my my brain is always sensitive to the fact that am I safe? Are my needs gonna be met? Um and again, individuals, whether it's from wiring, uh, from birth, or from trauma, have oversensitive amygdalas are always in a threat state. They're always in a survival mode. When your amygdala is uh, not sure what happened. I lost my camera here. Let me see if I can read. Okay, sorry, I think I may have timed out for a minute. Am I back?

SPEAKER_00 24:42

I still see you here.

SPEAKER_02 24:45

Uh so I I was saying though, um the brain is the the brain, and in particular the amygdala is is always seeking those threats. And when there's trauma, uh, or if it's nerve neurologically just kind of wired into you, you're more sensitive person, uh, it overprotects you. And it might it avoids that prefrontal cortex, the reasoning part of your brain from saying, no, that's not a snake, that's a stick.

SPEAKER_01 25:15

Right.

SPEAKER_02 25:15

But my overly active uh amygdala from trauma or wiring is gonna say, nah, that's a snake, it's gonna kill me.

SPEAKER_01 25:25

Right.

SPEAKER_02 25:25

So it makes it difficult to function in the world when even very small threats are perceived as huge threats, but they work together absolutely uh for people that are on the spectrum and are not, or who have had trauma and are not.

SPEAKER_00 25:42

So my question then for when you have someone that's already that maybe already their brain is predisposed to functioning in a neurodivergent way, um are those type can those people be more susceptible, more vulnerable to trauma, especially when it comes to in relationship. I mean, because of course you're not everybody driving is vulnerable to in a car accident, but in relationships and things, can a person be more vulnerable to trauma?

SPEAKER_02 26:17

Absolutely. I I believe so. And and from what research I've read in regards to this, why uh individuals that are kind of already have increased uh sensitivity in their brain uh may be more at risk uh is is is in regards to uh it gets into some kind of some deep um, again, neurobiological stuff in terms of cortisol in the brain. So cortisol is a stress hormone that's a release, you mentioned it already yourself, in terms of that fight, flight, or freeze instinct. Uh individuals that are already kind of primed uh because of the wiring of their brain, because of ADHD and other things on that spectrum, and they experience trauma. What they have is what's called more higher levels of free-floating cortisol in their brain. So that kind of predisposes them. That cortisol is up there, it's doing kind of what it's supposed to be doing in their brain, but their levels are so high, their cortisol and their adrenaline get it gets their heart racing and their body, you know, kind of going a thousand miles an hour. Uh, so the two combine. Um I'm not sure if I answered your question though.

SPEAKER_00 27:33

Uh kind of whatever you said was really good. I think you answered it. Um, I was saying it it does it make them more vulnerable to the um to trauma, the ADHD brain or the neurodivergent brain.

unknown 27:48

Right.

SPEAKER_02 27:49

I I I think again, yes, though, because their brain is already tweaked, uh there's they're they're more sensitive. Uh so it it kind of sets them up to experience trauma. Different. So interesting. No, you made an excellent point. So, what's so interesting about trauma, we talk about trauma as if it's one thing, it's not, uh, the same thing can happen to two different people. One person can be traumatized by it, and one person. So, yes, that having that pre uh disposition because of the cortisol and the adrenaline levels being higher, it actually does make them more successful, susceptible to having, you know, again, uh a more full-fledged experience of dysregulation and a more significant uh impairment uh from trauma. Because yeah, you you you we have a set point. All of us have a set point in terms of what our typical average cortisol level and and uh adrenaline level are, uh, but their susceptibility is higher because their set point is higher. And their sensitivity is higher.

SPEAKER_00 29:12

That's excellent. I'm glad you said that that way, because that explains why a lot of people they they discredit or they devalue someone's experience with a toxic relationship because they themselves have been through, you know. I have people say all the time, oh Dory, everybody has bad relationships. And you are absolutely correct. Just get over it. Exactly. Just get over it. Yeah. And you just you just painted a beautiful picture, at least for me. I hope the listeners um can see what you just said because we're two different people. And I just said that in my youth, I'm starting to wonder if I had more ADHD symptoms, and I've always been told I'm sensitive my entire life. You know, this experience for me caused a different kind of damage than it caused for someone else.

SPEAKER_02 30:07

Absolutely, absolutely. Uh, so they talk about chronic overwhelm. So people that are, we even if we just use the more common term of having uh people to get labeled as sensitive, uh whether wherever they're at on the spectrum, ADD, ADHD, autistic spectrum disorder, Asperger is a disorder. And I really don't like the word disorder, but it's still kind of hard to find out in my own language, uh, brains that function differently. Uh, but chronic overwhelm. So thinking about again, a person that has had no quote significant prolonged trauma in the world, but they have this more sensitive brain. Uh they're living in a world not designed for their nervous system, which leads to what we call relational trauma. That's your toxic trauma, uh, which leads to cumulative trauma. Uh trauma bills, too, is the other thing that I should have said. Uh having, even if you've never had, quote, that huge, most horrific trauma where you felt like your life was at risk, someone holding a gun to your head. Uh, but many, many small cumulative traumas, uh, and particularly in a person who uh whose brain is not built for a world, we live in a world constantly now where you're bombarded with stimulation, you know. Right, right. Everything's always on, we're always on our devices, there's always information coming at you, or you're using the latest AI tool, whatever it is. But this sensory overload for individuals whose brains are not wired to manage that, and and most of our all of our brains are increasingly being overwhelmed by this, even people that aren't, quote, neurodivergent. Uh, because the the the amount of information that's just out there now, it it's it's it's it's just ridiculous, honestly. Uh so yeah, chronic overwhelm is the thing that you you want to think about. Are most all of our brains are not uh designed to manage the level of information that we get thrown at us at any given time. So if your brain is already again tweaked to be sensitive to that much stimuli, you're you're gonna tip those emotional dysregulation points more frequently. Uh, also, the other thing about emotional dysregulation, I should have said, is in addition to being more sensitive to it, people that are neurodivergent by and large, um have a harder time regulating back down. So it's not only that you you experience the sensitivity higher, they have a harder time bringing themselves back down to that calm place. It takes them a little longer than is typical.

SPEAKER_00 32:48

Is that where some of the ruminating comes in or some of uh things like that?

SPEAKER_02 32:53

Or I think certainly uh the ruminating, uh, because the ruminating again is probably gonna be uh related to that amygdala and and the the the fear sensing piece, you know, uh, because your brain can kind of get stuck in a in a cycle. Uh one fear makes me worry about another fear, which makes me worry about another fear, you know. So you get these spiraling, you know, negative cascading thoughts, right? So, yeah, I can't shut down my amygdala. I can't shut down my rash, my rational thoughts of what on a scale to zero to ten, what is the objective uh risk of whatever the situation is? Is it a five for that person that uh again their system is neurodivergent, it's a little more sensitive. It can they they can live around a seven or eight. No matter when it's happened, I'm living around about a seven or eight that that can go away. Then my amygdala won't shut down, it won't keep sent, it won't stop, keep sending me the message that this is a fearful world, I wasn't protected, my needs weren't met. And then at the same time, that frontal lobe, that executive planning, is shut down. Your ability, your brain's literal capacity and ability to use reason and logic goes offline. Wow. When your convict is running things internally, the subcortical part is selling fear, your your ability to like they've done like research, put people in MRIs and look at brain flows and all that. And the frontal lobe, it it's not, it's not working. It's not, it's literally off. You have no capacity to use reason logic. They can't do a simple math problem because their brain is stuck back in the reptilian reptilian part of the brain. Uh, the cerebellum is is uh the oldest structure in your brain. Uh, it regulates that cortisol release, uh, that adrenaline release, and it's it's pumping blood to your to your arms and your legs to run. So the reptilian cerebellum is running your brain, your amygdala is running your brain, and your frontal lobe that does all that smart, smart reasoning and planning and you know stuff that we do, it it's not it, it's not in the conversation.

SPEAKER_00 35:12

Oh wow. I'm saying does it even exist?

SPEAKER_02 35:17

So I mean it it makes sense from a neurobiological perspective. If you your your body loses the capacity to do rationality, then you again can oftentimes get stuck in that amygdala fear, cycling, negativity, can't shut it down. You know, so and and that's actually uh I I drive the uh psychiatrist on my team crazy because I'm fascinated with the neurobiology of the brain and how all this works. Uh, because going back to ADHD, one of the most common treatments or medical treatments to behavioral treatments for ADHD too, I should say, first, uh learning behavioral skills. Uh, but one of the medication treatments uh for ADHD, one of the most commonly prescribed medications, is Ritalin or methylphenyldate is the call name. Um what methylphenyl date, because this blew my mind when it kind of finally clicked when after 10 psychiatrists explained it to me, methylphenyldate is a stimulant. And I was trying to figure out how a stimulant, you think of at stimulants as being activating, right, helps a person who can't focus slow down and focus. But uh the neurobiology of how uh methylphenyldate works in the brain is it activates receptors in the brain that are actually, even though it's a stimulant, their their role in the brain is it activates putting on the brakes, so it's it's kind of putting on the brakes to the amygdala so that frontal lob can come back on and reason and focus can resume. Because that that that always got me. It's like, how does a stimulant calm me down? I mean, you can drink some coffee because I need to wake up in the morning. Uh but the chemical, the way that it works at the neuroreceptor level uh with with stimulants, uh, Adderall, uh methylphenodate, is it it allows the the frontal lobe to slow down so we can't, so reason comes back online. So I'm off on a tangent.

SPEAKER_00 37:23

Hey, I could talk about this all day too, but you're right. Let's we gotta get back focused because again, um I think a lot of people, including myself, that I'm working with, you know, this whole ADHD and trauma thing working together, you know, helping them heal from this or even recognize that um these that the trauma is what's causing a lot of uh your problems, your inability to focus, your um fog, your your hyperactivity, all the things the spiraling and all the things. Um can healing the trauma help with the ADHD symptoms?

SPEAKER_02 38:13

Yeah, and I'm um absolutely uh just to kind of uh kind of dig into to that um healing the trauma absolutely does because it's gonna again, it's gonna lower your baseline cortisol and adrenaline level in your brain. When you process trauma, um you're you're you and you you you discharge it from your whole body, actually, not even just the brain. Uh trauma is held throughout our bodies. We we know trauma, some of the common ways we know that trauma is held throughout our bodies is people who have experienced you know extreme comma often are tense. They're do they experience tightness in their bodies. They experience a lot of somatic complaints, a lot of bodily complaints. Uh you often talk about having GI issues. My stomach's upset.

SPEAKER_00 39:04

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:04

My oo's not digesting well. So bodies get trauma can be held throughout your body. So when you process that trauma, usually most commonly through talk therapy, uh, there's lots of modalities. We talk about treatment modalities later. Um, but when you process that trauma, so you can uh release that trauma from your body and through your mind, uh your cortisol level, your adrenaline levels can come down, which can allow uh again you to kind of have that emotionally dysregulation under control. So the first step is absolutely like I say we can talk about a lot of different ways, a lot of different uh behavioral techniques. We talked very quickly about medication, but they're uh yeah, we can talk about the different the different medications and different interventions that different types of clinicians use to help people process the trauma, work through the trauma, and and and learn skills to keep themselves regulated. And it's gonna both uh decrease their sensitivity to um going offline, so to speak, uh when they're interacting with people, whether it's on the job, whether it's in a platonic relationship, or uh, you know uh uh a more emotionally heightened interpersonal relationship. So, yes, I think the first step is having an awareness of if people have a trauma history uh seeking talk therapy and uh opportunities to learn skills, to address it, process it, uh, so they're not experiencing you know flashbacks, so they're not experiencing dissociation, uh, so they can spend more time uh kind of with their peaceful most best selves wherever they lie on the spectrum on a day-to-day basis, based on any neurodivergence or uh that they they have that's just part of their the wiring of their brain from childhood.

SPEAKER_00 41:10

Okay. That's a long way of saying that again.

SPEAKER_02 41:14

I said that was a very long way of saying yes to your I like words, lots of words.

SPEAKER_00 41:20

Um, so you mentioned some of the um some of the approaches, talk therapy, medication, um, even some of the somatic practices. What are some of the other approaches that people can use to regulate their nervous system?

SPEAKER_02 41:37

All right, absolutely. Um, so there are a number. Uh a lot of them kind of fall under um kind of broad category of vagus nerve stimulation, uh, engaging the vagus nerve is this nerve that runs from your brain all the way through your body. Uh, and so we've we've learned that anything that you do that calms your your your largest nervous system, your vagus nerve system, calms your body down and helps with these. Those are very common and simple tools that you can do, uh, such as breathing. There's a uh exercise called square breathing, I'm sure you've heard about uh where essentially you're counting your breaths, you're you're taking slow deep breaths into the count of four, you're holding your count, your breath to the count of four, and you're taking slow, exhaling, relaxing breaths, maybe to the count of six, and you can increase that. And it is so powerful. And then people can do, and like people don't even know that you're doing it. If you if you know you're going into a job interview and you're gonna, it's it's gonna produce some anxiety or some feelings. Uh, you can kind of very quietly to yourself be doing square breathing, breathing in slowly through your nose to the count of four, counting internally, holding your breath for the count of four, and exhaling very slowly to the count of four. So this breathing exercise are things is an example. How you can calm your cerebellum, your amygdala, all the frontal context, all those wonderful parts of the brain we were talking about before. And as you do that, you're calming your body down and you're allowing that frontal lobe to come online, stay online, so you can reason, uh execute, plan, sequence your actions, behaviors, and thoughts. Uh, a lot of new work on vocal. It's I'm doing actually a lot of research on this now myself. Uh, vocal humming, singing exercises. So obviously, you're not gonna do that in your interview. Uh new research uh that that can show very specific types of types of humming and and singing exercises for many people can be self soothing and and and um you know calm the body, calm that vagus nerve. Um very simple tools. I like to start off with the basic, simple stuff that you can do along just great books, YouTube videos, you know, check your sources. Uh, you can find uh cold water explosion exposure, you know. Our moms have told us since day one, go splash some water on your face, baby. But there's there's like scientific uh research that that you know, cooling our face, cooling our heads and our brains, and it can kind of shift our focus and our attention and help us kind of get to a reset. Of course, we're we're doing these things before we're in a heightened space, right? These are the kind of very first uh tertiary steps that we can do to help reset ourselves. Um deep pressure uh for a lot of people, uh getting a massage. Again, uh deep uh tissue massage uh therapy uh can help calm and release stress from the body. Uh for people that are neurodivergent, uh, and particularly on autistic uh spectrum, we've used for a number of years, weighted blankets. Um and I'm really I'm not exactly sure I've done a deep dive into the research on why uh weighted uh blankets when you sleep or wearing a weighted vest. It's just something about it it impacts your your bodies feel that muscle, and you're having to uh use a little more intentionality to move. So I know people that wear weighted vests, vests under their clothes, or they sleep with a weighted blanket. Uh so deep pressure and proprioceptive touch stuff is uh another big way that people can, you know, either with the help of a therapist or do some research on your own uh to help calm that vagus nerve. Uh there's a whole field of uh of therapy uh called tapping and bilateral tapping. And you doing this like left-right tapping because our brain is has two hemispheres, and there's something about the tapping that can reset us to a calm point. Um so yeah, those are uh some of the, and I can talk about some of the uh grounding techniques, you know, uh sitting with our feet on the ground and and feeling being bringing yourself into awareness of of your feet on the ground uh can help calm us, uh or uh orienting ourselves to safety, uh pausing to look around the room and letting your eyes rest on something can help reset us and have us uh calm our minds and our brains and our body. It all works together. The 54321 technique or anchors you in presence by identifying five things you you see, hear, touch, taste that's going on, they all just very unconsciously force us to calm ourselves, calm our brown. So those are those are a fee a few things that you know, either with a little YouTube research uh or a couple of good books that you can really do on your own to teach yourself some self-regulating skills, whether you identify as neurodivergent, whether you identify as a person who has experienced, you know, mild traumas or significant traumas, that they can be helpful across the spectrum.

SPEAKER_00 47:04

What about movement and exercise? I think I've heard before that that helps with regulating.

SPEAKER_02 47:11

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 47:13

Can you explain how?

SPEAKER_02 47:14

Yeah, so it's it's that same thing. Any anything that causes you to engage your body and kind of honestly kind of distract your body uh and to train your bodies and your muscles to release stress, to release tension, are gonna lower your cortisol, they're gonna lower your adrenaline. Uh and the body remembers, you know, movement. Uh, so you know, practicing movements, exercising. I was gonna mention yoga are all excellent ways because you you're getting the physical benefits of it, but like neurochemically and neurobiologically, you know, moving your body forces your mind to focus, it forces cortisol levels to decrease, forces that adrenaline level to decrease. So movement can be key. Uh, same thing, the same uh idea with the proprioceptive stuff and the weighted vest. You're just forcing your body to move and remember and be unstressed.

SPEAKER_00 48:13

Yeah, that's when when you mentioned the weighted vest, that made me think about the exercise. I'm like, huh. Intentional movement, forcing your body, because that's what you're doing when you're exercising. You're forcing your body to do things that uh you're not normally doing. Right. Um, so what should someone that uh is experiencing these uh um ADHD symptoms, the brain fog, the confusion, the um inability to focus. What should someone that's experienced that do to determine if it's really ADHD or if it's uh trauma related?

SPEAKER_02 48:59

Absolutely wonderful question. Uh the first thing I would say because I'm gonna take one step back first, because I think in a good sense, uh TikTok and YouTube and um social media and the internet has brought a greater awareness to neurodivergence, ADHD, and trauma. More people have it somewhere out there in their mind that, hey, I think I may be, I may be on the neurodivergence, I may have a little ADD, I may have a little uh some some trauma at whatever level. And I think that's good, that awareness of it, because that that has allowed more of us to do the recommendation, which is seek a referral for a counselor, uh, a psychologist or psychiatrist who specializes in the treatment and the evaluation of ADHD, autistic spectrum disorders, Asperger's, uh, to because they're they're excellent clinical tools that can evaluate, because they look at um in particular in in the um in the world of ADHD, to have a diagnosis of that, you need to have these struggles with attention, emotional regulation, and focusing in multiple contexts. It can't just be when I'm around Johnny, and I get, you know, I'm forgetful and things like that. It needs to be half, it needs to one, actually impair your ability to uh achieve goals in an environment, and it has to be in multiple contexts. So typically a lot of times this happens with very young individuals. So we're like, is it happening both in the school setting and in a work setting and in a personal relationship? Um but great like clinical questionnaires that you complete to evaluate uh in terms of ADHD, autism spectrum disorder. So seek out a professional, whether it's a counselor uh that specializes in that area, a psychologist, uh, which is uh a PhD level individual, or a psychiatrist uh if medications are indicated. So seek those referrals. Uh similarly with trauma evaluations, um, the most one of the most commonly used tools is uh a screening tool called the adverse childhood experiences uh tool uh is used to screen for one of the tools used to screen for screen for trauma, because you need to be evaluated by a professional who is knowledgeable in these areas, knows what the appropriate uh evaluation tools are, given your age, et cetera, et cetera. So I would I that's why I would rather recommend starting there, seeking that consultation. And again, I'm glad that uh social media and internet has brought more awareness so people can think about that. And I think one thing that actually has done too uh is made it's lowered the stigma around, you know, ADHD, autism spectrum disorder, Asperger's disorder, and even trauma. You see more people more willing to talk about, hey, you know, I've had some, even if they say it in a casual language, I've had some traumatic experiences in my life. Uh but I think the more we talk about this, the more we give education on it, hopefully the more individuals that will go in and seek those thorough evaluations from experts uh in the counseling psychology and psychiatry field to evaluate, you know, uh where if one or both of these things are occurring for people.

SPEAKER_00 52:38

Okay. Well, if you had to give just one message to people to understand the diff uh let me reword that. What is one message you want people to understand about the connection between trauma and neurodivergence?

SPEAKER_02 52:57

Uh absolutely. So I I talked, I'm gonna go back one other thing and I will absolutely answer your question though. Uh I talked about some of the things that we can do on our own in and research, uh just books and YouTube to self-soothe. I do want to just kind of throw out a couple of uh very specific uh treatments that a lot if you go and get that evaluation and you find that you are somewhere on the spectrum or uh have some trauma that people, the therapists, clinicians, psychiatrists use, uh that's experiencing somatic experiencing therapies, trauma-informed yoga, EMDR, which is eye movement desensitation and reprocessing therapy, and poly-informed therapy. So they can go back, do a little research on that, get your evaluation first. So if they start using those terms, so you can start becoming familiar with it. But in terms of your specific uh question about kind of an overall when we're we're we're we're thinking about these areas again of being anywhere on the spectrum from ADHD to Asperger's and trauma. Uh for me, doing things like what you're doing, bringing awareness around this, uh, because the central goal is going to be moving beyond these labels uh to understand whether a person's struggles are neuro, whether they're neurodevelopmental, a response to chronic stress, or some intersection of the both. You know, just we we we need to move beyond left labels, be open to getting professional assessments, and know that there are excellent, excellent uh behavioral interventions that you can do yourself and work that you can do with with therapists uh to treat and experience a more joyful, calm, centered, emotionally regulated life. So I just want to let people know that that help is out there. Uh there's lots that you can do yourself, uh, but I think it does all start with you know getting an appropriate evaluation. So you know one, both working together, they're again, they're just wonderful supports either way.

SPEAKER_00 55:07

Wow. Well, I appreciate your help so much. I always enjoy talking to you. I know we can talk for hours for real about a lot of this stuff.

SPEAKER_02 55:19

I appreciate what you do, you know, getting this information out to the public, especially in in our community and marginalized communities. Um unfortunately, sometimes the the resources aren't there, and a lot of people don't get an opportunity to hear this information to know that the to differentiate the the the different pieces that it could be, to know that the help is out there. So the more widely we can get that information out there, I just I think what you do is really, really great.

SPEAKER_00 55:50

You know, and I don't want to, because this could be a whole other conversation, but with you just mentioning even marginalized communities, a lot of these communities they actually are living in a low-grade PTSD state anyway, because of all the things that my reason again, my research, my grad school research is certified research, and so it talks about um you can live in an environment that you know, because of the environment, because of things like the social determinants of health, because of poverty, because of lack of uh resources to uh doctors, uh healthy food.

SPEAKER_02 56:33

We talked about exercise and movement. There's no park in your neighborhood. That's a loud chaotic neighborhood. Maybe there are there's gunfire in your neighborhood every day. That again, that cortisol, that adrenaline that's tweaked by that. That is a toxic experiment, a toxic environment. So we talk about relationships, your whole environment can somewhat be toxic. And how do you learn? Uh say again, you're growing up in poverty, you're you're growing up with there's limited uh clean, healthy foods. So you're eating, you know, a lot of highly processed foods. You're not, you know, maybe you economically can't afford to buy a lot of vegetables and fruits and things like this. All of these systems work together. So yeah, toxic uh toxic environments and social determinants of health are very key to this. And again, that's why I like that you put this information, this education out there broadly. So everyone, regardless of race, race, ethnicity, uh, economic level, have some exposure to it. And there are good public community uh health centers, even if you are living uh in an environment where there's not as many uh doctors, clinicians, therapists, uh you can seek those out where they are in your community.

SPEAKER_00 57:57

Wow. Well, again, thank you so much. I appreciate your um your you sharing with us today. And I it's very informative. I it's enlightening to me. So I know the listeners will definitely get something out of it.

SPEAKER_02 58:12

Um I speak to you too. So again, appreciate you doing this. I appreciate you thinking of me to to you know speak to my experience with it. Uh just uh anytime I I love what you do, just keep keep up the great work.

SPEAKER_00 58:28

All righty. Well, thank you. So thanks for listening to Don't Ask Me Shit, where the truth might be uncomfortable, but it will set you free if you're willing to do the work. If something you heard today hit home, sit in it, process it, and decide what you're going to do next to change the situation that you're in. And remember, you can always ask Coach Dory, but if you're not ready to do the work, don't ask me shit. If you enjoyed this episode, share it with someone who needs a real conversation in their life, and we will see you the next time.